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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Feb 2009

Eel Management Plan: Discussion.

I welcome all the representatives: Mr. Anthony Wilde, Eastern Regional Fisheries Board; Mr. Pat Diggins, Southern Regional Fisheries Board; Mr. Des May, Western Eel Fishermen's Association; Mr. Kieran Lynch, Northern Regional Fisheries Board; Mr. Seamus Mulvihill, chairman, Shannon Eel Fishermen's Association; Mr. Brendan Connell; and Mr. Damien Murray.

I welcome the representatives. This debate was sought by the members of the committee arising from European Union legislation and the draft proposal submitted by the authorities here to the European Commission, due for conclusion next July, to allow them be better placed to make a submission to the European Commission. The committee considered it was important that we would meet the representatives.

The normal procedure is that a short presentation is made by representatives of each of the regions. I understand Mr. Seamus Mulvihill and Mr. Brendan Connell might share time, if that is agreed. I invite them to make a short presentation of approximately three or four minutes, following which members will put supplementary questions. If the representatives wish to speak for longer or shorter than that suggested time, they may do so, but while I do not want to restrict the debate, I do not want to continue for a long time.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, which means they can almost say anything they like about anyone with no retribution in the courts, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The witnesses cannot say anything they like about anyone they like. I draw to the members' attention the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The Oireachtas Members cannot identify somebody to such an extent or in a derogatory fashion that might reflect upon his or her character or the discharge of his or her public duties.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I e-mailed my submission last night but I also have some items of correspondence. Would it be appropriate to distribute them to the Fianna Fáil members and other members?

Yes, to all the members of the committee.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

It might be somewhat long-winded.

Mr. Lynch can give the committee a synopsis of it and we will take it from there. There are people named in it and therefore we need to restrict the distribution to comply with the privilege rule.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I only made nine or ten copies. Some letters and other items I have relate to the presentation. They explain the reason we have got to this point.

The presentation is being passed around to members, one copy of which may be shared between every two members and we will get more copies.

It is a good submission. The points are succinct.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

The Government should have established a working group to deal with directive 1100/2007, namely, to submit a plan to conserve stock. Instead, it submitted a plan that recommended closure of the fishery. Eel fishermen were not represented on this group until the important decisions were made and even then only one representative was to be allowed, in our opinion, to bring the bad news back to the stakeholders.

I wrote to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and draw members' attention to that letter, which will be exhibit 1.

We have that, yes.

Yes. We know that.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

It is reasonably well laid out in terms of the complaints. To be fair to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, he eventually allowed three representatives on to the group, but he did not address the other points I raised in any way, shape or form.

Having sent that letter, I had a number of telephone conversations with Ms Majella O'Dea, who I believe is Mr. Frank Sheridan's assistant, and it was eventually agreed that I and Mr. Seamus Mulvihill of the Shannon Eel Fishermens Association, with the agreement of the other eel representatives, would join the joint working committee. As neither of us knew anything about estuarine fishing, Mr. Pat Diggins, the eel representative on the Southern Regional Fisheries Board, was also included.

In the letter I sent I raised a number of other issues. I mentioned it earlier and shall refer to it as letter 2. We wrote to the Minister again on 16 November 2008 raising the spectre of ESB/Salmara — letter 3 refers. To date, that letter has not been answered but the Minister quickly passed the buck to the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, possibly to avoid a conflict of interest. It is worth noting also that the eel stocks in Ireland represent 2% of the total EU stock. Ireland's total ban, therefore, will have very little effect. I will return to that point when concluding.

We accept we may need to address the problem of the decline in elver recruitment but this should be done on a European basis. It beggars belief that the French are allowed to continue fishing for elvers and 40% of their catch is to be allowed for consumption and export. If that activity were stopped, surely some of those elvers would find their way to Ireland.

While it states in the plan that 60% of the French catch should go for restocking, it is not clarified if we will have to pay for any stocks we might acquire. At a meeting attended by the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, who is present, and Mr. Seamus Mulvihill, it emerged that Mr. Frank Sheridan and was part of this arrangement. I am sure Deputy O'Rourke would confirm that.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Yes.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Mr. Frank Sheridan went to Europe probably wearing his——

Under the privilege rule I mentioned——

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I am not really worried about it.

Mr. Lynch is entitled to make a case but he cannot make it in a way that might be deemed derogatory——

Mr. Kieran Lynch

——towards Mr. Frank Sheridan?

Yes, or any other person.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

The man should be here.

We had a briefing from officials this morning. We indicated that we will follow this up at a later stage. We will cover all those aspects.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Mr. Frank Sheridan, his assistants and the other people concerned should be here to answer questions. It would have been easy for him to attend a small meeting at which one or two Fianna Fáil members are present. He could have attended the meeting.

There are also members from the Labour Party and Independent members present.

A Speaker

Even an odd Fine Gael member is present.

The Independent member is just sitting with the Fianna Fáil members.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

That man usually heads for the long grass when he hears that Deputy O'Rourke and Mr. Seamus Mulvihill will be at a meeting.

We will proceed.

Mr. Mulvihill does not tend to do that.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

No, Mr. Frank Sheridan tends to do that.

Can we proceed?

Mr. Kieran Lynch

The EU directive asks Governments for a proposal that would allow 40% escapement of mature eels back to spawn in the Saragossa sea. While there has been some effort at a trap and truck operation on the River Shannon, no such operation exists on the River Erne. It is accepted by all that each turbine kills 28% of the mature stock, namely, silver eels passing through. That means the mortality rate of the stock is more than 50% on the Erne because of the two power stations at Ballyshannon. Why is something not being done about that?

Severe restrictions were already imposed on commercial eel fishing during the 2008 season. At that stage there was no indication that there would be a complete ban and many fishermen have spent money on fishing gear to compensate for the shorter season.

Eel fishermen and their representatives made some 16 submissions to the working group to arrive at a situation where the EU's target could be met while continuing to fish on a reduced basis. Some boards also made proposals, including my own, that if there has to be a ban, it should be phased in over several years. I read the plan a number of times and am unable to see where any of these submissions were taken into consideration.

Eel fishermen in the North of Ireland, including our colleagues who fish in the Erne, will continue to fish commercially. We are not talking about those who fish in Lough Neagh, but about Jim Allister's people on the other side of the Border. The Erne rises in the South and we are banned from fishing for eel in it, but our colleagues on the Northern side are allowed to fish in it.

So there is a new partition based on the eels.

The committee already had a discussion in private session and all the members have clear knowledge of the situation as you have outlined it. We will compare this with the hearing we held this morning. The relevant questions are obvious. Perhaps you would proceed so I can allow the members to ask their questions.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Of course. No comprehensive scientific survey has been carried out to support the conclusion that the eel fishery should be closed. Despite several requests there has never been a serious survey downstream of any of the power stations. We requested such a survey on numerous occasions to examine the situation with eels. These requests were refused. It is the usual rubbish. It appears that the Irish commercial eel fishery is to be the only one closed in Europe.

Finally, there has been no offer or discussion of compensation for loss of earnings and fishing gear other than some harebrained scheme about diversification, without funding. The country is in a deep recession and it defies logic to unnecessarily close a sector of the indigenous fishing industry. My personal belief, and I do not care who likes it or not, is that this is to do with the ESB-Salmara.

That was raised this morning.

To save time and energy I should point out that we are aware of that. This morning we covered the scientific evidence as well. The members of the committee are anxious to ask you questions. They are quite familiar with the subject; I even know a little about it myself.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I would hope so, Chairman. Give me a telephone call and you will know even more.

Does anybody else wish to make a submission? I call Mr. Des May of the Western Eel Fishermen's Association.

Mr. Des May

I am a fourth generation eel fisherman from County Mayo. My family has fished the silver weir eel on Lough Mask since before the foundation of the State and I am here as representative of the Western Eel Fishermen's Association. I thank the committee for inviting us here today. It is a relief that somebody is finally willing to listen to us. The pity is that the committee is the first official body to do so.

This process began a number of years ago when a working group was set up to examine the issue and devise an eel management plan. This group included personnel from various bodies but, amazingly, it did not include any eel fishing representative. It excluded the only stakeholder who was to be affected by the process, whose traditions and livelihood were on the line and, bizarrely, the only stakeholder with the historical data desperately needed to develop an accurate plan. Why would this be? The working group's report is founded on a scientific model test to estimate existing and pristine eel production. Into this model went limited, hard data which in reality was not nearly enough to provide definitive results. The report itself makes reference to this, so it is not in dispute.

Where the data is sketchy, which is almost everywhere, estimates and assumptions were used to fill in the blanks. By definition, this process of guess work carries with it margins of error, which are combined, multiplied and exaggerated through the report. Yet the report offers no such health warning on its findings. They are presented as definitive, with no margin of error, no projections based on pessimistic and optimistic estimates, no acknowledgement that it represents just one of a number of possible scenarios. The report claims an accuracy it simply does not possess. It was presented to the Minister as being beyond doubt or question so he had no room to exercise his judgment in coming to a decision.

If there was enough time, I could challenge the report in detail but for now I will offer just one brief example. The Western Regional Fisheries Board operates an eel weir on the Corrib River in Galway and has records from 1976. The report attempts, at a considerable stretch and without any stated error, to extrapolate from these figures the pristine production for the whole Corrib catchment. The EU regulation stipulates that only data prior to 1980 should be used — Article 2, section 5(a). However, in contravention of this, the report includes data up to 1982. Why did the group do this? As it happens, 1982 was an extraordinary year. The catch exceeded all other years by almost 50%. The effect of including 1982, which was deliberate, was to significantly inflate the average catch. This figure is fundamental to the report’s ultimate findings.

It is clear that the lack of hard data has been a serious obstacle in this process and I am struck by the mental picture of the working group wrestling with the problem of where to get that data — either ask the fishermen or make it up. We were not asked. The Western Regional Fisheries Board's data extends back to 1976. Given it includes only four years' data prior to 1980, it provides a very small window on true pristine production. In contrast, in my case, I have complete catch records dating back to 1926, fishing the same weir with the same effort. If somebody was genuinely seeking to determine the historical data on the production of eels, is it not reasonable to expect that I would be asked about my records? What does it say to the committee that I was not?

Eel fishermen are not in denial. We are aware that the eel stocks are under stress and that measures must be undertaken that will involve sacrifice on our part. However, we do not accept this report and its findings. The truth is that the data is so sparse and our understanding so vague, it would be possible to devise a model to support almost any course of action or inaction simply by making certain assumptions. This is proven by the responses of our partners in Europe.

Ireland accounts for 2% of the European catch, yet no other significant eel fishing country is proposing an outright ban. The Netherlands, one of the largest eel producing countries in Europe and a recognised authority, estimates that just 1% of pristine production is currently escaping but by closing the season for two months each year, it expects to reach the European target by 2027. Ireland on the other hand is compelled to impose a total ban on eel fishing for 90 years. Our nearest neighbour, the UK, is another case in point. Out of 15 river basin districts, it is proposing a fishing ban on just one, the Erne, on which it happens to share jurisdiction with Ireland. For all other river basins it has adopted the following policy: "Until more detailed information is gathered on stocks and the fishery, the preferred approach to conserving a sustainable fishery, while working towards compliance, should be to hold the fishery within its limits". It is not even proposing a curtailment.

It is obvious where other countries respect their fishing heritage and include the fishermen in their plans. In Ireland, the Department has offered us nothing but contempt. This report is a national embarrassment. The emotions within the fishing community I represent are best summed up in five words: disbelief, sadness, frustration, anger and determination. I beseech the members of the committee to use what influence they have to find a more reasoned and equitable solution.

We will take all the submissions first and then move on to questions. Is that agreed?

I must leave by 12.30 p.m.

We will do our best to accommodate the Deputy. I call Mr. Pat Diggins from the Southern Regional Fisheries Board.

Mr. Pat Diggins

I am on the Southern Regional Fisheries Board and represent estuarine eel fisheries in Waterford Harbour and Wexford Harbour on the Slaney. When we had the facility in the Southern Regional Fisheries Board we formed an eel management plan that was in line with the EU regulations. The regulations clearly state that a 40% escapement of adult silver eels compared to pristine conditions should be the basis for long-term management of eels. They set three ways of determining that 40% target. One was based on data collection, which the committee has heard about; the second was based on studies on densities of brown eels in estuaries and the third was in reference to the ecology and hydrology of similar river systems.

We knew from the start that in estuarine fisheries a 40% escapement would have to be determined by doing a study of the densities of brown eels in the area. We are not reacting to this EU regulation because we were very proactive over the last four years in so far as we stated that this would come down the line so we must have a management plan in place. We set about that. We reduced our season by 50%. We had no glass eel fishing on the Barrow and no commercial eel fishing takes place on any of the freshwaters of the river basin districts of the Slaney or the Waterford fishery district. As no commercial fishing takes place in the upper tidal areas either, we are restricted to places such as Cheek Point, Waterford city, Wexford Harbour and New Ross. In our area we have no man-made barriers to either recruitment or escapement, which is a help to us. We do not have any hydroelectric power stations in the area either. Better still, since 2003, when we started this by authorisation on our licences, we have been compelled to show photocopies of our sales dockets to the fisheries board to verify sales. In all those years our sales dockets have not shown a decline in catches. In the absence of sufficient quality historical catch data, we expected a 40% escapement rate to be determined to use the habitat-based assessment of fish stocks in the estuary. That scientific assessment would form the basis of determining sustainable fish stock levels.

In 2006 the joint working group was set up. The fisheries board procedure was democratic. We sat around a table and shared information. We examined each other's interests, including angling and salmon groups. We argued and at the end of the day the system worked for us in so far as the common good was concerned, by which I mean eel conservation and the sustainable exploitation of eels by fishermen. The next step was to let our management plan go through the eel working group. That was a different scenario because we were not allowed to sit on that group to represent our views. The views that emerged from it were totally one-sided.

The EU regulation clearly states eel management plans are made for a river basin district. If such a plan does not move forward, there is a mandatory 50% cut in fishing effort. When we forwarded our eel management plan to be analysed by the eel working group, we received a response concerning the absence of appropriate methods for estimating eel stock densities in the river basin district's transitional waters, that is, tidal and coastal waters. According to the regulations, if one cannot do this, a 50% reduction in fishing effort is imposed. In addition, studies are carried out to determine when the 40% limit will be reached.

The response from the eel working group stated insignificant runs of elvers were observed nationally and internationally in recent years. That is an obvious statement to make in the context of developing an eel management plan, as it applies to everyone across the system. The working group's response also referred to the practicalities of managing a reduced fishery and ensuring no illegal trade, but what does that mean for us? We have never had an illegal trade. We have had our sales documents verified. We have only three ports of call for a truck to come to designated landing points. If that refers to illegal trade, it has nothing to do with showing a 40% escapement rate as sought by the regulation.

The working group stated a precautionary report would be adopted on the river basin district and that, in line with a proposal from the national eel working group, the eel fishery would be closed. That is a disgrace. Eel fishermen in Cheek Point, Waterford and Wexford who need to target this species to support their livelihoods are being thrown by the wayside. We are a sideshow in respect of some other big problem up the country. We are insignificant.

The EU regulation did not treat people in such a manner in other circumstances. Article 7 requires that 60% of under-sized eels be retained for re-stocking. It was not stated it had to be done by July but that it should be introduced on a phased period until 2013. We fall into the category that affects Community waters, that is, seaward of natural eel habitats in a river or on the coast. It does not state the fishery should be totally shut down; rather it mentions a mandatory 50% reduction in fishing effort in these areas.

Without wishing to interrupt Mr. Diggins, we will need copies of all the papers referred to. If Mr. Diggins can leave them with us, we will circulate copies to everybody. The written submissions are important for us to follow up at a later stage. I want to move on, as we have three more speakers before we have a question and answer session. I ask Mr. Diggins to conclude his remarks.

Will we be able to hear from everyone?

Mr. Pat Diggins

We are not reacting to the EU regulation. While we have been proactive in bringing it forward, we are reacting strongly to the eel management plan. It is devastating and one-sided because eel fishermen's views were not represented on the committee.

I call Mr. Wilde from the eastern region.

Mr. Anthony Wilde

There is no point repeating what Mr. Diggins said. We are from the same area.

I am strongly opposed to the three by-laws brought forward by the working group. I have fished for 60 years and lost my licence because I was in hospital. When I was asked about grading small eels, I said I would gladly do it if someone demonstrated it to me, but no one demonstrated to me what had to be done. For the last 30 years I have been complaining about the state of the River Slaney which is now within Mr. Diggins' domain. I saw nothing taking place. I do not want to hold up the committee because my comments are much the same as those expressed by Mr. Diggins.

I call Mr. Mulvihill, chairman of the Shannon eel fishermen's association. He is going to share time.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

There is no point repeating what previous speakers have said. As I see it, the plan will totally wipe out an indigenous industry. It is a way of life and a livelihood for upwards of 250 people. It includes offshoot industries, including worm farming, net mending, long-line and boat builders, and smokeries. We also got rid of Irish eel dealers. I agree with previous speakers on elver recruitment — there is no plan, timescale or costings. There is nothing in the Irish plan to the European Union that covers the recruitment of glass eels or elvers.

I agree totally with the comments of previous speakers on how eel fishermen were treated by the eel working group. We tried for so long to secure representation on it but were refused. When we went to meet it that day, all the decisions had been made. I could not understand it. I talked to many people about why, all of a sudden, it had decided to bring us in when the decisions had been made. Something else is wrong. There is, for want of a better word, another agenda from which I reckon they are working. There has to be. The way I have it written here is that a review group had an extreme pro-ESB agenda. That is the only conclusion to which I can come after much thought and discussion. There is something radically wrong.

They put massive restrictions on us in the 2008 season. They stopped silver eel fishing in September of last year, that is, when this new by-law came into effect. This was to conserve the eel stocks. However, I cannot figure out why because scientists know well, or should know, that eels know nothing about the calendar or the time of the year. Eels work on water flow and moon phases.

Every river, drain and puddle was full of water in the months of June, July and August. We were banned from fishing in September. The ESB did not even have its nets down in Killaloe where they were supposed to be catching them going into the turbines, and that is when the big runs of silver eels went.

I pointed that out to marine Dr. Russell Poole at a meeting in Athlone. Honestly, he stated "Good God, you are right. It went completely by me." He stated he would ring the ESB to see if it would let us go in and either trap and truck or let us sell the eels, but that at least we could stop them from going into the turbines. He telephoned me back to state the man was on holidays in Hawaii and nothing could be done. That is a fact. Not only is that the way we are being treated, but that is the way eels are being treated.

The lads stated that Ireland accounts for 2% of the European catch. One must remember that when the lads — as the Chairman asked not to mention names — went out and had this deal signed, sealed and delivered, the Europeans only holding on to 60% of the catch of glass eels and elvers, a couple of years ago were selling 200 tonnes to the Chinese to be eaten with a knife and fork. I want the committee to bear in mind that 15 tonnes a year would be more than adequate to supply all the fresh water in Ireland. Six tonnes would do the Shannon, four tonnes would do Lough Neagh, which I am including in this regard, and three tonnes would do the rest of the country. Four tonnes a year would yield 800 tonnes of mature eels every year. This is what we have always been missing out on.

What the negotiators have agreed to with Europe is mind-boggling. It does not make any sense. It is a little like telling Irish farmers that due to a problem with the cattle we will sell all the calves. Eventually, one will be in trouble. This is what the Irish, in their wisdom, have done.

The regional fisheries boards all sent in resolutions and proposals opposing the ban. They were refused. I am flicking through documents here because my colleagues have it covered.

We will take and circulate Mr. Mulvihill's written submission.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

All moneys earned by eel fishermen constitute foreign money coming into this country and in these times, it is strange.

Mr. Mulvihill is sharing time with Mr. Brendan Connell. We will follow that with questions. I reassure all of the witnesses that the committee's intention was that they would have an opportunity to make a submission and the committee will then call various people, as it sees fit. I would remind them to refrain, in so far as is possible, from making specific personal references and ask them to bear in mind the initial citation on privilege. That does not mean that they should not be able to indicate to the committee with whom they have had discussions previously so that the committee will know what to do.

Mr. Brendan Connell

Much of what I have to say today was said by my colleagues here behind me. I am a traditional eel fisherman, following generation upon generation, and I am soon to be out of business as the Government has decided to ban eel fishing in Ireland.

The scientific basis for this decision is highly questionable. No survey has been carried out throughout Ireland's rivers and lakes in recent years except on the River Shannon and the proposal for a complete ban does not originate from the body of science available. It is also a concern to me that the driving force behind this is a senior civil servant within the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

When this eel management plan was being drawn up there was no consultation with eel fishermen. We had a meeting with Dr. Russell Poole in Athlone and on that day he talked about working towards a 40% escapement. There was no mention whatsoever of a complete shut down.

We then looked for a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, and he brought along two civil servants. On that occasion I showed them surveys we had done on the Shannon on brown eel and silver eel catches from 2000 to 2008 which showed an increase. The civil servant stated that these are included in the plan, and that they were basing it on elver catches. I handed her the plan and asked her to show me the reports done in the past eight years on elvers, and she said there were none.

How can they say elver returns are non-existent if no surveys have being done? If our catches have increased in the past eight years how can eel stocks be at a low? That day I also asked the Minister of State to put into the national eel management plan a clause that Ireland would close down eel fishing for 90 years only if other European countries did the same. He agreed that he would do this, however he stated this in such a way that it does not stop Ireland from shutting down eel fishing.

Particularly due to the lack of consultation with the eel fishermen in Ireland, this matter has been dealt with extremely badly. With the recession we are going through at this time, eel fishing was never so badly needed by the fishermen in this country.

I thank Mr. Connell. Could we arrange for the collection of those papers and for photocopying and circulation as quickly as possible? Deputy Thomas Byrne needs to leave soon and I will call him first.

I will not take long. The gentlemen, some of whom, including Mr. Murray from my constituency, I have had discussions with, put forward a strong arguable case. In addition, the letter of 16 November from Mr. Lynch to the Minister contains a number of serious allegations and they need to be investigated by the appropriate authorities, perhaps not this committee but somebody needs to look into it.

You are the appropriate authority in this context.

Perhaps the issues derives from Europe.

There are serious allegations. I will not read them into the record or anything like that,——

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I would have no problem with that.

We will take them as read. We will deal with those subjects again.

They are very serious issues of public administration.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I have the necessary paperwork to back up what is being said there.

We will take copies and circulate them to the members.

I apologise that I must leave.

I thank the Chairman for agreeing to meet the eel fishermen when Senator Leyden and I put the matter forward. I know the eel fishermen in the Athlone area and for a long number of years, as the experts told us this morning, it was the strongest eel fishing area within the country.

Both Seamus Mulvihill and Brendan Connell, and sometimes Brendan's brother, came to see me and we worked on the matter. We met twice and then we made an arrangement to meet with the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power. I put it in a public letter to Commissioner Borg.

We got very little regard at that meeting — those are my own words and it is against my own party — but I do not mind saying it. Why not say the truth? Why run around hiding behind bushes?

We put our case. The gentlemen who spoke today are basing their argument on the fact that erroneous studies have been done to produce erroneous information which leaves Ireland, with 2% of the eel fishing, in a corner with "We will not eel fish for 95 years" hanging around its neck. If that sounds good in Brussels, it does not sound good in Ireland.

We give out about the Lisbon treaty referendum and the fact that people will not vote. We ask people to stop eel fishing and not to cut their bogs. We get involved in such everyday matters, we are robbing Ireland of Europe. That is exactly what we are doing.

I know this committee well and I have great regard for the Chairman. We normally deal with matters to do with Croatia and other countries, and all that would be "posh", but the matter we are dealing with today is what Europe is about. Europe is about ordinary people having a stake in their business. It is every bit as important, if not more important, that what we are considering is about the people of Ireland being part of Europe.

I do not like what has happened to the fishermen. I only know the two gentlemen from my own area who are present but all of them have the same story. The scientific reports were flawed. They did not have the proper professional input from those who fish. One can have as many studies as one likes but one must watch out for eels. Mr. May said they had commenced their own conservation agenda to keep a shape on the matter in order that it would not become very bad. There was no consultation and there will be no compensation. A daft statement about diversionary treatment and tactics with no funding has issued. They are not here for that. They are here to get their rods in their hands and to fish. They want another tactic. I have written to Commissioner Borg and I contacted an MEP, who is on the fisheries committee. The committee will follow up on this and the regulation will come in definitively in July. Our aim is that the ban will not come in and there will be no July deadline.

The EU has a petitions committee and a group that feels it has been discriminated against can take its case to the committee. We may have to do that to deal with this matter but I am not putting a gun to anybody's head. Is it not sad after years of John Bruton, Dick Spring, Deputy Bertie Ahern and others ploughing up and down to the North working hard to bring about one island, one people, that we have partition on eel fishing?

Ireland has 2% of the European catch. We are the best boys in class because we will close for 95 years. Will we be given a medal or a big fat silver eel? This is a great delicacy but I would not eat it because I do not like it. Mr. Rogan, whom we met last Friday, has an eel smokery. He attended a meeting in Athlone and he brought me a sample. One would want to have a refined taste.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Tom McSweeney did a programme with him and he will probably be on the news this evening.

Eel is a cultivated taste.

We must be a little uncouth. Eel is an acquired taste but the French are wild about it. I welcome the fishermen. This is only chapter 1 and the Chairman will outline what will happen next at the end of the meeting. It is good for democracy that ordinary people are being given a hearing. Ordinary people with concerns are being listened to meaningfully.

The committee is the appropriate forum for dealing with this and members have an excellent opportunity to flex their statutory powers both here and in the context of discussions at EU level. This is also an excellent opportunity for the committee to develop its business.

I thank the representatives for attending and sharing their wisdom with us. The presentations have been interesting and it is good to compare notes. When the 90-year ban was proposed, that caused alarm bells to ring for the committee. We wondered why it was necessary, out of the blue, to introduce such a lengthy ban and the committee was anxious to get to the bottom of this.

Will Mr. Mulvihill confirm the number of fishermen involved, that approximately 120 tonnes of eel are caught each year and that the catch is valued at between €500,000 and €750,000? Was the EFA invited to be represented on the working group by the Department? The regulation was published in 2007 but it was not until late 2008 that three representatives were invited to sit on the group. The deadline for the presentation to the EU was 31 December 2008 and, therefore, no member of the association sat on the group until the 11th hour. The working group essentially operated without the direct participation of the association's members.

Is this a Europe wide ban? I put this question to the fisheries boards' representatives who appeared before us earlier and they said, "Yes". Mr. Mulvihill suggested Northern Ireland would be treated differently and France, the Netherlands and so on would operate a different regime. The fisheries personnel said the ban would be 90 years "assuming equivalent European Union wide action". I presume the Department will proceed with the proposal on condition that all member states agree with it and that each of them will operate it by implementing monitoring and supervisory mechanisms to ensure the ban is not breached. We were told this was the way the Department proposed to deal with the ban. Will Mr. Mulvihill provide clarification on this?

I am amazed a proper trap and truck mechanism is not provided in waters where there are turbines, particularly in the Shannon Estuary and Ballyshannon.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

There is a trap and truck on the River Shannon but there is none on the River Erne.

The turbine in Ballyshannon could take up to 50% of the eels.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Yes, there are two turbines. It is even more disturbing that we are not allowed to inspect the facilities there. I am a board member and we asked to do this. We are not allowed to see what is being done.

The turbines are operated by the ESB. Is the trap and truck mechanism on the River Shannon effective? Does it deal with the issue?

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Not at the moment. We created them to put out the nets in early September last year to at least catch some of them before they were mushed in the turbine. They did not put them in until 28 September. There is only one.

Does Mr. Mulvihill believe a considerable number of eels are being destroyed in the turbine? Is it 50% of the stock at Ballyshannon and 25% at Shannon?

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

It could be 40% or 50%. Some figures in Europe suggest as much as 65% or 70% of what comes to them are destroyed, but I cannot back that up.

I presume we are to take it that a similar situation exists in other European estuaries.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Yes.

The assertion, therefore, is that no proper surveys or scientific data are available in that regard.

Is there any suggestion that the plan would be phased in? Is there a plan to examine the situation over the next while, reduce the percentage for a period, see the effect over the coming years and see how it works? It seems that has not been considered and it is planned to have an outright ban.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

That is right.

Is there any suggestion of a hardship fund for affected fishermen? Is there a basis, within the European Union or the Department for such a fund or has that been ruled out?

I welcome the eel fishermen to the committee. This opportunity to put their case to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs is a good exercise in democracy. I acknowledge the work of Deputy Mary O'Rourke in this regard, because she highlighted the issue at a meeting of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party late last year. The horse had practically bolted at that stage, but she made efforts to try to avert sending the recommendation to the Commission for a 90-year ban on all eel fishing in the Republic of Ireland. This is an extraordinary recommendation.

We were aghast and amazed at the thought that the proposed ban could be true. We are surprised by what is proposed. My grandparents had a successful eel fishery on the River Suck until the arrival of the ESB station at Ardnacrusha, which did enormous damage. The ESB is a profitable organisation and has a responsibility with regard to preservation of the eels. It must prevent them getting caught in the Ardnacrusha works.

I received a few phone calls this morning from Councillor Séamus Walsh from Oughterard on behalf of Jimmy Molloy and David Ryan of the Cong fisheries, who are very concerned about this issue. When I was a Deputy representing south Roscommon, I regularly had to make representations for fishermen for eel fishery licences. Have any eel fishery licences been issued subject to any agreement that may be reached in Brussels?

Some of the statements made here today need to be thoroughly investigated. I recommend that RTE should carry out a "Prime Time Investigates" programme with regard to the situation. It did such a programme before on an area outside Mullingar. I appreciate that was a negative programme, but it should do a detailed investigation into the situation with regard to the eel fisheries.

The question for now is where do we go from here. The issue was discussed at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting, but at that stage the recommendation had not been finalised in Brussels. We should invite both of the Ministers involved to this committee to discuss the issues. The quickest way to bring about change is for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to change its approach. The Minister should go to the Council meeting and point out that we have re-examined the situation and heard submissions and now want to put forward a recommendation in accordance with eel fishermen views.

I appreciate the comments made with regard to conservation and think the fishermen are being very fair in that regard. They are prepared to look at methods of conservation and restocking. As far as I am aware, restocking takes place in Lough Neagh and other fisheries. The British Government got derogation for Northern Ireland in the case of this directive, an extraordinary success for those fishermen. Why, therefore, can we in the Republic not have the same conditions as apply on the Erne, Lough Neagh and elsewhere? Why do we not do the same as far as conservation is concerned? Why throw away the livelihood of 150 people?

The Erne flows through both the North and South.

That is true, but we cannot control the eels in the Erne. Our eels will go in to the North and be caught there, but we cannot catch them here. We want justice in this area and an investigation into the situation. This committee should take the steps to achieve this.

I accept the point made by Deputy O'Rourke. She said the last resort should be to petition the Commissioner because that would be going above the heads of the Minister and Minister of State in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The issue is complicated. We must try to persuade our colleagues in Government to change their approach on this issue. I recommend we ask whichever Minister has responsibility for this area to come as soon as possible to this committee to go through the facts and figures presented here today. The points made here should be put to the Minister for a response. That is democracy.

The representatives of the eel fishermen are very calm about the situation. It is a 90-year ban. It has never happened before in our history that a ban was introduced for 90 years. This is an outrageous proposal. It will be 2099 before eel fishing can be reintroduced.

Do not fret about it. None of us will be around.

The trouble is these men will have no livelihood. They are the sons and grandsons of eel fishermen, which is something. We would like to see that continue.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Castlecoote will be a city.

It is well known that fish were sent to Billingsgate live from Castlecoote in the past. My wife's grandmother made nets from flax grown in her area. Eel-fishing was a great industry then, but it was destroyed when Ardnacrusha power station opened.

We should continue to work on this issue. I thank Deputy Mary O'Rourke for raising the issue and hope we will get a suitable outcome, sooner rather than later. The matter is urgent. Once again I ask, are licences being issued currently?

When are they issued?

Mr. Kieran Lynch

May I clarify that situation?

Yes, but I want to take the questions of Deputies Treacy and Fahey before coming back to the witnesses.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

They have not refused the licences yet, but have put them on the back burner.

That is correct. What we expect the committee to do is to get ahead of the rush and to work back from July. We cannot allow July come and go without any interference.

I endorse the Chairman's welcome to the eel fishermen. I will start where Deputy O'Rourke finished, on the importance of democracy and the opportunity for these decent citizens to come into Parliament and make a presentation to a powerful parliamentary committee. While we do not have all the answers or powers, we will do our utmost to assist the campaign Deputy O'Rourke has so ably led in recent months.

If we examine the genesis and early statements of the Lisbon treaty, Christian and religious values are mentioned, heritage and diversity of cultures and so on. Traditional culture is part and parcel of the situation we are discussing today. Lisbon recognises this. As citizens of Europe and Ireland we must recognise it also. I know nothing about eels. I know my late father came across them when doing drainage work and I probably ate an eel starter once or twice.

However, I am aware these eel fishermen here are very committed to eel fishing. What is the total annual commercial value of the industry to the country? Fishing is a great and important tradition here and eel fishing has a peculiar and special place in the hearts and minds of a segment of our population. We have a duty to preserve this situation and look after those interests.

In the past, I was deeply involved with the genesis of the county enterprise boards and I am aware that some boards grant aided eel-smoking facilities to assist in rural regeneration and local employment. If one arm of the State in one area of activity offers grant aid to develop and exploit this natural resource and add value to it, surely it behoves us as a more global entity to ensure fishing, the basis of the entire industry, is sustained. On that basis, we have another responsibility.

Waterways Ireland was the first North-South body to be established under the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. It has statutory responsibility for developing and managing waterways on both sides of Border. It is co-funded by the sovereign Irish and British Governments. If those using our waterways can travel between the North and South, eels can gravitate in the same way. As Deputy O'Rourke and Senator Leyden said, the partitionist attitude at official level to the management of eel fisheries is anathema to everything we espouse as an island nation and a people. The purpose of the Good Friday Agreement is to create an environment in which we can provide opportunities, increase the standard of living and make sure equality of access to all options is available to the people.

This is a serious challenge for the committee. I commend the Chairman on the way he is handling the matter. I am delighted that we have procured the excellent documents. Outstanding presentations were made by the good people present. This is a serious challenge for us, as elected representatives of the people in this sovereign Parliament. Perhaps we can use this challenge to provide opportunities for future generations. We need to show that democracy, from the ground up, can ensure the traditional ways of life in this country and other parts of Europe are sustained on an equal basis. They should not be eroded by people who do not understand quality of life issues in parts of rural Ireland and rural areas throughout Europe.

I join other members in welcoming the representatives of the eel industry. I thank the Chairman for giving me an opportunity to attend this meeting of the committee.

I concur with what has been said. The Department's decision to ban eel fishing for 90 years is outrageous. I was involved in this issue when I was Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources. At the time my attention was regularly drawn to the absolute determination of the ESB to put an end to what it saw as interference with its core business. I rejected any proposals or suggestions to ban the eel industry. We tried to improve it and manage it better. We dealt with some of the illegal activity that was plaguing it at the time. I do not know if that has been the case since. I reiterate that if we are to maintain the eel fishing industry, illegal activity should not happen. I recall, from my time as Minister of State, a number of court cases involving a small number of individuals who engaged in illegal activity that did not do the industry any good.

I concur with what has been said by Deputy O'Rourke who has done a substantial amount of work to try to ensure the industry survives. It does not make sense to attempt to ban eel fishing. I would be interested to know how the Department decided that the ban should last 90 years. It is strange, especially as people in Northern Ireland can continue to fish for eels. We should make every effort to contact the Minister and his departmental officials. As Deputy O'Rourke suggested, we should ask the European Commission to reconsider this decision. If it were to put in place a proper eel management regime with proper conservation measures, as suggested, it could ensure we have a viable eel industry, while also protecting eels, which is obviously the reason for the ban.

Mr. Lynch has criticised officials in the Department which is unfair when the officials in question are not present. I suggest he withdraw what he said about them, as it was not fair. When I worked with the officials in question, I disagreed vehemently with some of the stances they took on certain issues. However, it is important that we protect officials about whom comments are made in a public forum, particularly when they are not here to defend themselves.

I note the Deputy's point. At the beginning of the meeting I reminded delegates of the position in respect of parliamentary privilege. The officials mentioned by the Deputy will have a opportunity to make a submission to the committee in due course.

I apologise. I am trying to attend two or three meetings at the same time.

I have worked closely with eel fishermen. I was acquainted with Mr. Des May in a different capacity some years ago. It is not surprising that the people voted against the Lisbon treaty. During the years we have used the European Union when it suited us and blamed it when it did not. This EU legislation has been interpreted by officials in the Department who work with Ministers who are elected by the people in a manner that is grossly unfair to Irish eel fishermen.

I have to go to meet a group elsewhere. I thank the delegates for attending. I will be in touch with them.

I understand.

I must go too.

That is okay.

It is grossly unfair that this EU rule is being implemented reasonably in France and other parts of the European Union. We tend to blame matters on Brussels. When farm waste management plans were introduced, officials in the State asked us not to blame them for laws being forced on them by Brussels. When we went there, we were told by EU officials that it was up to the Government to interpret their views. Unfortunately, the Government interpreted them much more harshly than any other government in Europe. What did we do? We blamed the European Union. When significant problems arose in the turf cutting industry, the European Union stated it wanted 1% of the land to be designated as a special area of conservation, but the Department decided to designated 12% of the land in that manner. The Government again stated it was not its fault; that it was the European Union's fault. It is no wonder people take a jaded view of the EU project.

We need leadership on this issue. However, there is no leadership from the Government. It is obvious from the report that no scientific survey was carried out. Commercial eel fishermen have been left on their own. They deserve more protection than we are giving them. We can come in and out of meetings. I have asked numerous questions in the Dáil but have received substandard replies. We can talk as much as we like at this committee and can make recommendations. As I am not a member of the committee, I thank the Chairman for inviting me. This matter has to be dealt with by the Minister responsible. That is where it needs to go. There has been no offer or discussion of compensation, even though we are talking about the livelihoods of people who have always been aware of the environment. They are caught up in a turf war. They need to be protected by the institutions of the State, particularly the Minister responsible. While we can give our views at committee meetings, we cannot do anything until the Minister intervenes.

I remind those present that all Members of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament are entitled to speak at this committee at any time. That facility is readily available. MEPs have spoken at this forum. It is particularly pertinent in the case of this committee, the conduit between the European institutions and the Houses of the Oireachtas. We have spoken about this many times and it is about time we brought it into operation. We have always believed in its operation.

I ask the delegates to make a few brief comments. We have a good idea of what the position is, as the presentation and the papers presented were excellent. We will follow them up. The committee clerk may look for more of the correspondence with the Department on the sequence of events. I suggest to members that we should have a private meeting to decide how to proceed. The most important point is that we need to proceed quickly because July will not be long coming. We must move to stage Z, rather than going through A, B, C, D, etc.

Mr. Brendan Connell

Deputy Costello asked about a hardship package. On 27 January we had a meeting with Mr. Ciaran Byrne and Mr. Eoin Ryan of the Central Fisheries Board. Mr. Byrne told us the eel fishery had been closed and that the by-law was being drafted as we sat at the table in Athlone. He said also that he had been sent to give us any help he could but that there would not be a hardship package for fishermen. He suggested that if we wished, we could become involved in organising island tours, bird watching, do a course with FÁS or dog grooming.

Mr. Brendan Connell

A trap and truck system was also on the agenda. At the end of the meeting we were told to go away and talk to other fishermen about these suggestions. Mr. Byrne advised us that he would be in touch within two weeks but, as usual, we heard nothing. We believe the meeting was held only that it might be stated at a later date there were discussions taking place with eel fishermen.

Senator Leyden asked about the catching of elvers and releasing them. The national eel management plan states there will be no transport of elvers from one state to another because of the risk of disease. This is the practice all over the world and there is no evidence of disease in glass eels or elvers. There are no records on surveys done of this practice in Ireland. However, it can be shown that there is no shortage of elvers within Europe. In Spain, for example, one can buy elvers at a restaurant and eat them.

Mr. Des May

Deputy Costello asked whether it was proposed to have a total ban in Europe. I have read and heard officials answering this query with a bland reply to the effect that there are indications our proposals will be followed. It was possible to state this almost until the present because we did not know what other countries were doing. The deadline was 31 December but nobody had published anything up to that date. Now one can go on-line and obtain the Dutch report in English. I shall show the officials where to find it. It states the English are banning eel fishing on only one of 15 river basins. The Dutch who have the most intensive eel fishing industry in Europe are to ban it for only two months of the year. They say they will meet the European target by 2027. The French say they will reduce the level of eel fishing by 30% over three years. The Swedes say they will curtail it but do not propose to ban it. Ireland will be the only country to ban it outright. We are a small cog in the wheel and it will be banned for 90 years. It is a farce.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

My big fear about this is one is talking about a figure of 40% — I will have to pause——

We will give Mr. Mulvihill an opportunity to think. I asked what the gross annual value was estimated to be?

That question was asked a couple of times.

There is a tourism value in that many tourists come to this country from Holland, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and other parts of Europe to engage in eel fishing. Is that the case? Do they come?

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Unfortunately, Deputy Fahey has disappeared. He opened the door to some legal matters. I am trying to remember our friend's name, the civil servant, Mr. Frank——

Mr. Frank Sheridan.

I want as few references as possible made to such intricacies.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I have not said anything about the gentleman that I have not said to his face. Anything I said to his face——

I accept that but I bring to Mr. Lynch's attention——

Mr. Kieran Lynch

In County Leitrim it would be a term of endearment.

This is a statutory committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas and meets in the same format as the Dáil Chamber in plenary session. We must apply the same rules.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I appreciate that but if he was here, there would not be a problem. Unfortunately, he is not.

The committee will deal with that issue.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

Deputy Fahey mentioned certain legal matters. He probably refers to events that took place in the midlands during the 1980s and 1990s. I remind the committee that in 1996 there were inspections by both the Garda Síochána and "Prime Time" into the activities, in the main, of the ESB. Ms Ursula Halligan who now works with TV3 said in her report that the link between the so-called subversives and eel fishing was not apparent and had never been established. The Garda refused to appear on the programme. Salmara was disbanded, like many companies during that period, around 1996 or 1997. I do not say this was directly related to the material we raised but I made statements to the Garda, as did others. In recent times the Minister was asked in a Dáil question how the ESB was operating with fisheries. He replied that it had been operating under Salmara Holdings since 1987. On checking, I found that Salmara Holdings had not beem established until 1993.

The points are taken. I reassure Mr. Lynch that committee members will be quite capable of pursuing all these issues when they go to look for the papers. The Houses of the Oireachtas make facilities available to them to seek papers if they require them in coming to a decision.

Mr. Pat Diggins

I had a meeting with eel fishermen during the past week. To be honest, before I came here, I did not know where I was going to turn because I had run out of options. Who would listen to me? Therefore, I am thrilled by what I have heard from Members of the Houses. I hope our voice will be successful.

I do not know whether the delegates have lobbied all Members of the Oireachtas. My colleague, Deputy Feighan, has been lobbied. It would be very useful if they lobbied all Members because the more support there is for the effort the more they will be rewarded. I have made this point previously. I only heard about this matter when Deputy O'Rourke spoke of it. I had never heard from any eel fishermen in my area. In fairness, if the delegates do not get serious and contact Members of the Oireachtas, it is hard to expect Members to get serious about it. I make that suggestion. We need backing on the issue. It will be very difficult to get a Department to reverse a recommendation forwarded to Brussels last December. That would be to do a somersault. We have a fight on our hands and the matter will not be easily resolved.

Senator Leyden is correct. The big challenge for us is to find a legal mechanism whereby the instrument lodged by a Department on behalf of the people can be legally withdrawn from the Commission. That is a serious handicap to overcome.

The Lisbon treaty is the mechanism.

He was right to do it.

As we know, if the Lisbon treaty had been passed, we would have a straightforward mechanism and no difficulty. I hope we will have such a mechanism. I wish to conclude matters.

Mr. Brendan Connell

Deputy Treacy asked a question about what this was worth to the country. The management plan states it is worth €500,000 to €750,000 but makes no mention of tourism. Most Germans and other foreign nationals who come here to hire cruisers on the River Shannon eat eels. They fish with their rods, hooks and worms over the side of the boat——

And bring it home with them.

Mr. Brendan Connell

Some bring it home, while others live on it here for two or three weeks. The fact that they can eat eels supplements their holiday.

It is worth more than €1 million to the Exchequer.

Mr. Brendan Connell

It is worth more than €1 million.

Eel is also good for the diet. A sum of €750,000 sounds like an under-estimate.

Mr. Brendan Connell

We got that back in 1982.

Besides the United Kingdom, France and the Netherlands, are any other large countries in Europe involved?

Mr. Des May

In France, Spain and Portugal it is primarily elvers. As one travels north to the Netherlands, Denmark, England, Ireland and Sweden there are silver fisheries. England, Ireland and Sweden have silver fisheries. Belgium does not have a fishery of note. I do not know what Denmark is proposing and I do not have good Danish.

Is Mr. May aware that any country in the EU, apart from Ireland, is proposing a complete ban?

Mr. Des May

No.

I heard Denmark's proposals.

Mr. Des May

On that point, at a meeting we had after the draft was published an official stated other countries are taking proposals such as those we have made. He mentioned Denmark and said it was totally banning eel fishing on fresh water. Subsequent to that I read a CITES report which stated only 5% of eels in Denmark are caught in fresh water and 95% are caught in estuaries.

Does the delegation have any idea where the figure of 90 years came from?

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Originally, as Dr. Byrne and Mr. Diggins will remember, Ireland discussed a figure of 250 years, which I was trying to think of earlier.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

The market in the North would be even worse.

Mr. Seamus Mulvihill

Originally, that is where they were coming from.

We read the papers this morning in private session and will return to that again. I thank all the witnesses for their presentations.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I thank everybody in the committee. I tend to come to these type of meetings and the boot tends to go in.

Not at all.

Mr. Kieran Lynch

I thank the secretariat and the policy officer for their help.

They step up to the plate on a regular basis. We will proceed to the next item which is some housekeeping work that we must conclude in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.20 p.m. and adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19 February 2009.
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