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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Mar 2010

Turkey and the EU: Discussion with Turkish Foreign Minister.

We have apologies from Deputies Pat Breen, Timmy Dooley and Billy Timmins. Deputy Beverley Flynn may be here later and asked for apologies to be expressed on her behalf.

We shall proceed to item no. 1 which is Turkey and the EU and we will have an exchange of views with Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu, Foreign Minister of Turkey. It is with great pleasure that we welcome the Minister to the committee. We are conscious of his busy work schedule during this trip and we wish him well in this respect. We are also conscious of Turkey campaigning for accession to the EU, which has been a long and circuitous event. Turkey has made considerable strides towards complying with the acquis, which is a prerequisite for accession countries. We also know the influential role Turkey plays in the Middle East and the western Balkans. Professor Ahmet Davutoglu has a particular interest in those areas. It is our pleasure to invite him as guest speaker to address the committee. The usual format is that the guest speaker makes an opening statement followed by questions and answers.

Professor Ahmet Davutoglu

I thank the Chairman and the distinguished members of the Houses of the Oireachtas committee. I hope I pronounced it correctly. It is a great honour for me to be in Leinster House addressing this joint committee. Yesterday and today I had excellent meetings. Yesterday I had an official meeting with my dear colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, and President McAleese, who is coming to Turkey soon. We realised we had not met for quite some time so we decided to have high level contacts as frequently as possible. After my visit here and after President McAleese comes to Turkey, we hope the Minister for Foreign Affairs will visit Turkey. We want to strengthen our ties.

I had excellent impressions on my visits to several cultural centres. The most impressive was the Long Room of Trinity College because I was interested as an academic. The Book of Kells was so impressive to my brain and to my heart. There is such a strong tradition of Irish culture and it should be known by all humanity. As the representatives of the Irish nation I extend to you my admiration and respect for this high culture in Irish history.

Today I had meetings in UCD. Knowing the relations between UCD and Trinity College, I wanted to have balance. As an academic, I had excellent meetings with academic colleagues and PhD students. I exchanged intellectual views on history, strategy and the future. I had another meeting at the Institute of International and European Affairs, a think tank. I also had the chance to visit two interesting bookstores, one of which is modern, the other second-hand. I found excellent books on Irish history and a famous book from our literature by an eastern philosopher and poet, Sa'di. The book, The Gulistan of Sa’di, is a Turkish classic. It was amazing to find that in a bookstore in Dublin and shows how close our cultural contacts have been. Today, this is the last meeting before my meeting with the Minister with responsibility for European affairs. It is very meaningful for me to finish my visit with this meeting. By meeting the members of this Oireachtas committee I am meeting the Irish nation. Members represent the Irish nation and I am not only addressing the individual committee members but the whole nation. I wish to express my admiration and best regards to the Irish nation, a great nation of culture and dignity.

With reference to dignity, I refer to our parliamentary relations, which did not start in recent years or decades. The first connection was the letter from the Dáil to the Grand National Assembly of Turkey in 1921, addressed to the representatives of foreign nations. The letter was sent to the Parliament in Ankara, the first Parliament of the Turkish republic. A strong relationship emerged, and yesterday President McAleese mentioned that when she was a child, she thought Atatürk was an Irish hero. In her house, pictures of Irish national leaders and Atatürk were beside one another. In Gallipoli, unfortunately, we fought in different armies on different fronts, but from those events we were able to produce a history of friendship and brotherhood. These are the feelings and this relationship should continue. When I return to Turkey I will convey best wishes and best regards to the Grand National Assembly and the speaker of the Parliament. I will suggest having more frequent contact between the two parliaments and foreign relations committees.

Turkish-Irish co-operation can contribute much to the European Union and to many global events. In UCD I mentioned that Turkey and Ireland are nations of migration. There are Turkish and Irish communities in different parts of the world, such as the US, Australia and many other countries. Close co-operation between Turkey and Ireland will facilitate Turkish-Irish communal relations in many parts of the world. We have many similarities like the old tradition of large families and trying to harmonise tradition and modernity. Turkish and Irish cultures have many similarities. We can contribute much together.

Regarding foreign relations, I wish to underline the issues facing global society and international relations. We are in a transformation process where global, economic, political and cultural structures are being reshaped after the post-Cold War era. The Cold War had a static structure based on two superpowers and two blocs. The concept of East and West had different meanings in the years of the Cold War compared with today. After the Cold War there was a transitional process that is continuing, even though it is 20 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall. There are many frozen conflicts around us on the global scene. There is a need for the formation of the United Nations system and a new response to the challenges of new geopolitics in the political sense in the international community, the European Union and Turkey. We should all respond to these challenges.

There are also many challenges in the economic field. These challenges were regional, economic, global and cultural in the 1990s. There was a crisis in the Balkans and in the Caucasus. These crises ended in certain frozen conflicts. The economic crises of the 1990s had an impact internationally, although events in Brazil, Asia or Russia did not have the same global impact as the recent financial and economic crisis. There is a need for a readjustment of the international financial system. While cultural conflicts in the 1990s had ethnocentric or micro-national tendencies, after 11 September 2001 we have had to respond to more globalised cultural confrontations. Where an issue of political, economic and cultural transformation and challenge arises, the European Union should respond by leading the process rather than being just a reactive player. The Union must decide, for example, what its future role will be in the international political order, how it will respond to these frozen conflicts in the neighbourhood of Europe and its role in the context of reform of the United Nations. Similarly, in an economic sense, what is the future of the European Union in terms of the competition between economic power centres? In a cultural sense, what will be the response of the Union to multiculturalism both in Europe and outside Europe? These are the challenges facing the Union.

After the Cold War, Turkey tried to redefine its foreign policy to minimise the risks around us and to maximise our influence. Many of the frozen conflicts to which I referred were directly related to Turkish history or geography. For example, the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1990s had a direct impact on Turkish society in that we now have more Bosnians living in our country than in Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. Likewise, there are more Kosovars living in Turkey than in Kosovo, more Albanians in our country than in Albania, more Chechens than in Chechnya itself and more Kurds than there are in Iraq. Thus, we have strong links with our neighbourhood. We want to minimise the risks coming out of that neighbourhood and, as is compatible with European Union policy, to create a much more peaceful and prosperous neighbourhood within Europe.

In all this — political, economic and cultural — Turkey has a central role. In an economic sense, it is a question of energy and security for Europe, including the issue of energy transfer throughout Eurasia. All the basic energy routes from Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Middle East towards the West should go through Turkey. The country is becoming a hub of natural gas and oil. However, our cultural linkages create certain challenges for us. Since we have a strong ambition for European integration and accession, we have sought to develop a well-framed foreign policy that is compatible with European Union policy. I will summarise some of the main principles we have been following since the 1990s but in the last seven years in particular and which I also outlined at the Institute of International and European Affairs.

The first principle is the balance between security and freedom. For any modern society, security and freedom are two main objectives to be achieved. One cannot sacrifice one for the other. If one sacrifices security for freedom, one will have chaos. If one sacrifices freedom for security, one has a dictatorial, autocratic regime. A political system should afford maximum freedom and maximum security without one impacting too far on the other. Our European orientation has helped us to create this balance. Our strategic objective is to strengthen Turkish democracy as well as to strengthen the security environment around Turkey.

The second principle we follow very closely is the policy of zero problems with our neighbours. With this policy, which we declared in 2003, we try to improve our relations with neighbouring countries. After seven years, I can say that nobody expects any short-term or medium-term crisis between Turkey and any of its neighbouring countries. We have excellent relations with our neighbours. There are only two cases in which we have tried very hard but were unable to develop relations as we wanted, namely, the Greek-Cypriot Administration and Armenia. I am sure members follow international relations closely and are therefore aware that in 2004 we worked very hard to secure agreement with the Greek Cypriot side by way of the Annan peace plan. There were lengthy negotiations in Switzerland between Turkey, Greece, Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots and the United Nations, and the European Union also had a representative there in the person of Mr. Günter Verheugen. At the end of these negotiations, a plan was agreed by the four parties. Unfortunately, in the subsequent referendum in 2004, while the Turkish-Cypriot side accepted the proposal by a 65% majority, the Greek Cypriots rejected it by a majority of 75%. We were not able to unite the island and to find a comprehensive settlement, and this issue has become a barrier in Turkish-EU relations. However, we have excellent relations with all other countries. We have joint Cabinet mechanisms with Syria and Iraq, and we now plan to put in place the same mechanisms with Greece and Russia.

The third important principle we are following closely is proactive and preventative diplomacy in surrounding regions, including the Middle East, the Caucasus, the Balkans and central Asia. Turkey has taken many initiatives which I will be pleased to explain to members. For example, Israel and Syria have finally engaged in direct talks after almost after three years of a confidential process. I was mediator between the two sides during these indirect talks. We were also involved in efforts to facilitate Sunni integration into the political process in Iraq in 2005. In the Balkans we have established a trilateral mechanism between Turkey, Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina to resolve certain issues between the last two. In our last meeting we were able to bring both sides to an agreement whereby Bosnia-Herzegovina assented to establishing diplomatic relations and to sending an ambassador to Belgrade after many years of conflict. We are working hard to make more progress there. In the Caucasus, we established the Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform after the war in Georgia. In Lebanon, we initiated several peace initiatives on the Palestinian side. In short, in the context of the frozen conflicts that exist, we have tried to encourage a zone of prosperity and stability in all the regions surrounding Turkey to lessen the risks for our country. The instrument of this policy is high level political dialogue, economic interdependency, multicultural co-existence and a common security framework.

Another important principle concerns our relations with global powers and centres, such as the EU. From the Cold War until now we had two important orientations, one involving the EU and the second with our security framework within NATO. These two important affiliations formed part of the backbone of Turkish foreign policy. The European Union accession process is our main strategic objective, and our role in NATO is very important for the strategic stability of global affairs.

We do not see the relationship as an alternative to Russia, China or others. The Cold War has ended and we see all relationships in a compatible manner. Russia is our main trade partner, with a value of $40 billion, and we also have good relations with China and other Asian countries. The European orientation is fundamental.

We also subscribe to the important principle of having more active involvement in international organisations. I mentioned three problems at the beginning, including geopolitical issues such as economic and cultural order in a global sense. Turkey is a member of the United Nations Security Council and when we became a member last year, we received 153 votes, which was a record. Countries from the Pacific, Latin America, the European Union, Asia and Africa supported us because of the foreign policy and a full trust in Turkey.

In the international economic order we are a member of the G20. In 2002, when the present government was first established, the Turkish economy was the 26th largest in the world. After seven years, the Turkish economy is ranked at 16 in the world, and at six in Europe. It is very dynamic and we have much manpower. We did not use a single euro in aid from the European Union in doing this. We do not have oil and natural gas like some countries in the Middle East. Our power is in the quality of our educated people, geography and our experience.

We hope that by 2023, Turkey will be one of the ten biggest economies in the world. Our population is very dynamic and even in the last economic crisis we were able to overcome problems without any major social or economic dilemmas in Turkey. In the past three months, the rating of Turkey has been increased four times by financial houses.

In a cultural sense, we have established lines of communication with Spain. There are more than 90 states and more than 20 international organisations with volunteer participants. We are trying to respond to all these global challenges through different international fora. In 2010, we will chair three international organisations, including the South-East European Cooperation Process, the security and co-operation organisation of Asia and, in the second half of the year, the Council of Europe. We are an observer member of the African Union and the organisation for economic co-operation. We have a strategic dialogue mechanism with the Pacific Islands Forum, ASEAN and the Gulf Cooperation Council.

Through all these links we want to provide some solutions for regional and global peace. This would be a great asset for the European Union, and through this we want to change Turkey's image as a soft power. During the Cold War, Turkey was seen as a hard power having a strong military. We need a strong military presence because of the risky environment but at the same time, Turkey is seen as a soft power using efficient diplomacy as a rising economic power and a centre of cultural activity with many issues. This year, Istanbul is the cultural capital of Europe, and last year we hosted the IMF and World Bank summit. In Istanbul every month there is an economic or cultural summit to contribute to regional and global peace.

All these principles are compatible with our objective of accession to the European Union. We want to proceed quickly with full integration with the European Union, and we are grateful for the Irish support. We want even more vocal support from Ireland because Turkey can contribute much to the Union. This is our strategic objective and if there are questions about that, we can go into details. We can be a big asset for the EU and make the EU a global player in an economic, political and cultural sense.

We are working very hard on our reforms. Turkey has transformed itself immensely in the past ten years with regard to democratisation and standards of living for people. We still have difficulties in the process of integrating with the EU. There are three main reasons for this. There is still the Cyprus question despite all our efforts and a referendum in 2004. In that referendum, Turkish Cypriots voted "Yes" and were punished. They are out of the EU. Greek Cypriots voted "No" and they are in the EU. Greek Cypriots are, unfortunately, using their membership of the EU to slow the process of Turkish integration. Eight chapters of our negotiation were suspended and the rest have not been allowed to be closed. We have opened 12 chapters and closed just one and we want to go faster.

A second factor is the changing political trend in Europe. This is a domestic issue in Europe and in many countries there are more right-wing political administrations which are more sceptical of Turkish membership of the EU. We fully respect this democratic choice. We want pacta sunt servanda, and whoever is in government should continue the commitment of the previous administrations. This is important, and potential Turkish membership of the EU should not be used for domestic or local political purposes.

The third issue is public opinion and we must work harder on this. In Turkey we have a special responsibility to explain the transformation of Turkey and the role of the country in European, regional and global affairs. This is in order that the broader European public will have better information on Turkey and understand its concerns.

We will work hard to continue our reforms, and we now have a new communications strategy for European public opinion. We hope we will soon be able to be a full member of the European Union. Together with the EU, with its potential in the areas of diplomacy, economy and culture, Turkey can contribute much to regional and global peace.

We have a long list of speakers and will take them in turn.

I endorse the Chairman's welcome to His Excellency Professor Ahmet Davutoglu, the foreign Minister of Turkey. I detect that the Turkish breeze blowing across the European Union is bringing a new warmth. One could almost say some Turkish delight is being brought to the European political system. We wish Turkey well. I have had the privilege, in different ministries in the past, of dealing with Turkey and its representatives, and I detect a major change in the mindset of the current Administration.

The Minister referred to the global situation. Perhaps he would elaborate on how he sees the current financial crisis, which extends across the world, being resolved. Turkey is strategically located, as the Minister mentioned, and it obviously has a desire to become a full member of the European Union. We are a proud sovereign State with a strong democratic and republican tradition, and we are a proud member of the European Union. One of the great strengths of the European Union has been its neighbourhood policy. Turkey has a long history of difficulties with its neighbours. How much progress has been made in resolving those difficulties? The Minister alluded to the discussions in Switzerland and so on.

There are still difficulties with Cyprus, to which he referred. Cyprus is a member of the European Union with the same rights as every other member state. There are difficulties pertaining to territory and marine services between Turkey and the adjoining countries. Is progress being made to alleviate the situation in order to achieve orderly mobility for people in that region and ensure that the neighbourhood policy of the Union, which is underpinned by equality of opportunity for all citizens, irrespective of their location, is fulfilled?

We in Ireland are proud to have made a major decision on the Lisbon treaty. We have eliminated to a large degree the previous democratic deficit, giving much more power to the citizens of Europe and to the member states' Parliaments. We believe we have created a new environment within the European Union. This creates a major opportunity for the Union to become a partner with Turkey in the future. Ireland mirrors the Union in that we want to engage in collaboration and partnership, with mutual trust, respect and common goals which will further the common good across the Union and around the globe.

The Minister referred, as I mentioned, to Turkey's strategic location and the importance of its geographical position. Over the last two years the European Union and Turkey have concluded the Nabucco Intergovernmental Agreement. Perhaps the Minister could tell us how that is going and explain its advantages for both Turkey and the Union. We are delighted to support Turkey's membership of the UN Security Council. We value the United Nations as an important force in global activity; along with that, we regard the European Union as being a positive force for global peace, economic opportunity and citizen sustainability. As a result of the position Turkey holds within the Security Council, it is now in a strong political position.

The Minister also referred to the fact that during this year Turkey will chair three important committees: the Council of Europe, the security and co-operation organisation of Asia and the South East Europe Co-operation Process. Turkey has an important role vis-à-vis the UN and ASEAN and in partnership with the European Union. Thus, I make a special appeal to the Minister. The situation in Burma, with the continued house arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi, is intolerable as far as Ireland is concerned. It is reprehensible that she has been banned from joining a political party and denied the democratic opportunity to go forward for election. We have supported her position over many years and at every level. Perhaps Turkey might take it upon itself, in the positions it holds, to ensure that equality of opportunity prevails and that the constructed impediments that have created a serious democratic deficit in that country are addressed.

With regard to the northern axis of Turkey, perhaps the Minister might give us an idea of how he sees the situation vis-à-vis Russia and Ukraine. He referred to the European human dimension. There are many Europeans living in Turkey and much interaction with various European countries, some of which has resulted from turmoil; I refer to Bosnia, Kosovo and so on. How does the Minister see the situation in the region developing over the next decade? Does he see the countries concerned evolving into solid, democratic, political and economic entities, taking into account Turkey’s strategic location and its important economic position? What does he believe is the role of the European Union and the UN in assisting in the development of the region?

I thank the Minister for his presence and for his wide-ranging dissertation. We warmly welcome what he has said and we wish him and his country, its government and its people continued success in the future.

I welcome Professor Davutoglu. I enjoyed his contribution and his expression of interest in Irish culture and the links and historical contacts between Ireland and Turkey. We have had much admiration for Turkey down through the ages, particularly at the beginning of our own Republic back in the 1920s.

I was particularly struck by the positive note in his contribution with regard to relations with neighbouring countries, and the fact that Turkey is now very much a peace ambassador in that area. I sense a new commitment to progressive developments in Turkey.

I was struck by Professor Davutoglu's reference to the various conflicts that have taken place, particularly in the Balkans, and how at any given time during those conflicts there might have been more Bosnians in Turkey than in Bosnia, more Kosovars in Turkey than in Kosovo, and more Albanians in Turkey than in Albania. This also applied to Chechens and other Caucasians. How does Turkey manage to accommodate so many people in these circumstances? It is always difficult in circumstances of turmoil; the Minister might say something about that. However, it also reflects how close Turkey is to the European Union and to European countries and to the political activities that are taking place. Professor Davutoglu might give us his view of the situation in the western Balkans and how he sees the progress of the applications of these countries to join the EU as a stepping stone to Turkey's application and accession.

With regard to the vexed question of Cyprus, much progress has been made, or at least there has been much intense negotiation over the past 18 months and a new attempt to try to bring about a resolution to the question. It appears a problem exists with Turkey in respect of the Ankara protocol and the difficulty of Cypriot marine traffic entering Turkish ports. Can the delegation provide some clarification on whether any progress has been made in this area?

The Minister did not refer specifically to Israel and Palestine in terms of the Middle East conflict. Will he give us his views? I understand Turkey has been playing a very positive role in respect of the Middle East conflict.

I refer to internal matters. Progress been made in terms of democracy, the Judiciary, elections and so on but issues remain in terms of freedom of expression, newspapers, trade union rights, practices and such areas. Will the Minister comment on these matters?

I extend my welcome to the Foreign Minister. I have visited his country on many occasions and I thank him for the contribution he has made to the committee. I refer to the opening part of the Minister's contribution, in which he touched on the potential for global cultural conflict, especially since the events of 11 September 2001. I was intrigued by the way in which he discussed the matter. What role does Turkey have in respect of resolving the conflicts?

What impact, if any, does the Minister believe the current negotiations for Turkey to become a member of the European Union will have in respect of the cultural conflict to which the Minister referred at the beginning of the contribution?

I emphasise a point made by Deputy Costello in respect of relations between Turkey and Cyprus. The Minister will understand that it is very important for a country such as Ireland, which has experienced difficulties with neighbours in the past, to see these issues resolved to the satisfaction of everyone. Many Members would be interested to hear the Minister's response to that point. Again, the delegation is very welcome and I thank it for its contribution.

I thank the Foreign Minister and the Ambassador, who is doing an excellent job here in Ireland, for coming. The unscripted contribution was excellent, fluent and very impressive. I congratulate the delegation on its contribution today. The committee is delighted to have the Minister, his staff and officials here. I trust they will enjoy their visit to Ireland.

I am delighted President McAleese is headed to Ankara and Istanbul with her husband, Martin McAleese. It is great for Irish Turkish relationships. They are at a very high level.

I was very pleased, proud and privileged to be at the Council of Europe meeting in January when the Minister's fellow Turkish member was elected president for a five year period. It was the first time one of the Minister's fellow countrymen and a Muslim was elected to such a position. His election was widely accepted and applauded. He is an excellent representative of the Minister's country. I wish him well in the new role and I compliment the Turkish delegates to the Council of Europe who play a very important role and with whom we have a very good working relationship.

The matter that concerns me most in respect of the relationship with Turkey is the situation in Cyprus. I visited Cyprus but I will not visit Northern Cyprus unless it is an official visit of some assistance to bring about a reunification of the island of Cyprus by agreement with the Cypriots and the Turks. In the meantime I welcome the change to border crossings which have improved somewhat.

I refer to the question of ports and access to them. It is extraordinary to go to Famagusta, a beautiful city which was thriving in the 1960s but which is now an empty ghost city. Surely something can be done to find agreement that could bring life to the area. The situation is extraordinary. We have resolved our issues in Ireland very well. Very complicated negotiations took place. I accept a referendum took place and that the Turkish Cypriots voted by 64.9%. There must have been a good reason for their voting that way at that time but a stop should be put to the sale of lands in northern Cyprus to British people or anyone who wishes to buy there. There should be a warning. To buy land in northern Cyprus is illegal. This land was taken from Greek Cypriots in the southern part of the island. I met people whose land was taken and whose farms are now gone. These lands have been bought by several people from Britain. To my mind it is illegal for anyone to buy land in northern Cyprus. I hope the land is taken from such people in any settlement. That is a warning about the situation there. Negotiations are taking place at the moment under the United Nations and I wish them well. It is vital that a settlement is reached but a major barrier remains. We are speaking as members of the Parliament, not on behalf of the Government. We are not directed to say anything. We welcome the delegation but it should bear in mind we have personal views in this regard.

Membership of the European Union for Turkey is very unlikely as long as there is no settlement in Cyprus. There must be a settlement of the Cypriot issue before Turkey can become a member of the European Union.

The Foreign Minister and the ambassador are very welcome. As others have stated, we are impressed with the manner in which the delegation has presented its views to us. Turkey will be very welcome into the European Union because it has a young population and we are in need of a youthful population. However, I am unsure whether the people of Turkey wish for it anymore. I saw figures indicating that in 2004, some 70% of the population were in favour of joining the European Union, but last year the figure was only 40%. The delegation should correct me if I am inaccurate in this respect. I refer to another viewpoint expressed, that of the President of the European Council Mr. Van Rompuy. Apparently, he is very strongly opposed to Turkey joining the European Union.

What is the position in respect of the Kurdish situation and the relationship between Turkey and Iraq? Clearly, there has been a difference of opinion rather similar to the situation in Ireland and Northern Ireland in respect of the Kurdish population. A suggestion has been made that because good relations have been established with Iraq, there is some danger there might be a break up of Turkey at some point in the future. I understand the Opposition in parliament is rather concerned about this possibility and that of a separate State for the Kurdish people. Is this unlikely to happen or is it possible?

Speakers referred to democracy, freedom and security. There is a danger from a very strong army which has been involved in politics over the years. Is the delegation satisfied now that this is behind Turkey?

I refer to the involvement of Turkey in Afghanistan. Is there opposition or full support for the 1,700 troops in Afghanistan on the NATO side? Is this accepted by the population or is it a matter of contention? I was very impressed with what the delegation told us about the relationship in the past and I look forward to hearing others in future.

I welcome the Minister, the ambassador and the delegation. It was refreshing to listen to the contribution. As the delegation will appreciate different views are held on this side of the table. The delegation went into some detail about the relationships in the past. Speakers referred to events at Gallipoli and before then. The kindness shown during the Famine times was very much appreciated and acknowledged in Drogheda recently. I wish Dr. Davutoglu well with his visit. He referred to his productive meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin. We share the same view of that meeting. I hope the development and progress made this week will continue during the visit of our President to Turkey in the near future.

Regarding the application by Turkey for membership of the European Union, in December 2009 the General Affairs Committee noted the major progress made in Turkey in carrying out major reforms. Dr. Davutoglu referred to some of these. The committee asked for an acceleration in the pace of these reforms, particularly in the areas of freedom of expression, trade union rights, civilian oversight of the military and other areas of human rights. Perhaps Dr. Davutoglu can explain how Turkey intends to respond to this request from the EU to accelerate those reforms. These are very important and we would like to see continued progress in that area.

Dr. Davutoglu referred to the job done in respect of public opinion. Some countries have expressed serious concerns about Turkey becoming a member of the European Union and this represents a challenge. The job is to convince other members of the European Union that there are major benefits attaching to Turkey becoming a member. Dr. Davutoglu has referred to some of these benefits today but it is important that Turkey takes on the PR role in explaining the benefits of membership. It is a major job because some countries appear to have their minds made up. We wish Dr. Davutoglu well in his endeavours in that regard.

I take a completely different view from my colleague, Senator Leyden, with regard to Cyprus. When enlarging, the EU missed an opportunity when half of the citizens of the island of Cyprus were given a veto on whether the island in its entirety would become a member of the European Union. We cannot change the past but it is important we learn from it. I hope we can see progress in the near future. I am aware of the UN-led negotiations and I invite Dr. Davutoglu to comment on these. Perhaps Dr. Davutoglu can give some insight into what life is like in northern Cyprus. Those in the south are members of the European Union. In view of progress on the economic front — Turkey being the 16th largest economy in the world — perhaps Dr. Davutoglu will consider extending his stay here. We could do with some advice at the moment. I hope Dr. Davutoglu enjoys the remainder of his visit.

I welcome Dr. Davutoglu and I extend my compliments on the election of Mr. Mevlüt Çavusoglu. I hope I have pronounced his name correctly. I was present at the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe when he was elected and his election was welcomed by all present. I wish him well.

I was interested in the comments of other members, including Deputy Costello's comments on freedom of expression. I would like to extend the freedoms about which all of us are concerned to include the freedom of religious practice in Turkey. I would be grateful for the opinion of Dr. Davutoglu on the decision in Switzerland to ban minarets. What is the view of the Turkish Government on this?

When describing the challenges facing Turkey in accession to the European Union, perhaps Dr. Davutoglu might have mentioned that while we are working towards it, we are not at a point where there is confidence between those who cherish what are loosely called Western values of democratic participation, respect for men and women and their participation in society. While it is acknowledged that in Turkey's secular tradition and according to its constitutions of 1924 and 1961 there is clearly enshrined respect for freedom of religious expression, the practice seems to have been somewhat different on occasions. For example, at the moment there are converts to Christianity being prosecuted in Turkish courts, ostensibly for inciting hatred against Islam and insulting Turkishness, but it is fair to say there are fears among some that the principle of reciprocity is not fully in existence. Some have fears that one is not fully free to be a Christian in Turkey or to express one's ideas and offer to share and encourage those along the path. What is the Government's view of this and is that a fair assessment? In light of Senator Quinn's question about declining support for EU membership, does Dr. Davutoglu think it is true and is it something to do with the rejection of what is seen as EU secular values? I am sure Dr. Davutoglu intends to answer Senator Quinn's question but perhaps he might also diagnose what is behind the shifting viewpoint.

Does Dr. Davutoglu believe Turkey can be a bridge into the future between the Muslim world and the Western world and whether this is an essential part of Turkey's CV as it approaches the question of EU accession? Does Dr. Davutoglu believe the reluctance of people like Angela Merkel, who was considering privileged partnership for Turkey rather than membership of the EU, and the opposition of France is something that can and will be overcome or is it an insuperable obstacle unless France and Germany move towards a more positive view of Turkey's accession?

I join others in warmly welcoming the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs. This may be the first time a Turkish Foreign Minister has addressed the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs. In the spirit stated by the Chairman, I hope this will be the first of many times and vice versa. The historic visit of our President to Turkey will further improve our relations.

Regarding security in the region, particularly with regard to the Middle East, Turkey is a country capable of speaking to both sides in the conflict. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, was the first Foreign Minister to enter Gaza in quite a while. This committee has embarked on a process of examining the alleged breach of human rights in that region and I am interested to hear Dr. Davutoglu's current analysis of the Middle East situation. Will more recent attempts to get talks going succeed? Does anything extra need to be done in order to get a settlement in this difficult region?

With his economic hat on, perhaps Dr. Davutoglu can respond to the following idea. I have always supported proposed Turkish membership of the EU. How can we improve our trading links? We have not reached our full potential of commercial and trading possibilities between the two countries. What changes must be made to increase the level of trade?

That is a fairly broad diversion from succession. I am sure it is as broad as any Professor Dr. Davutoglu has met before.

This committee, in conjunction with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs visited Gaza and compiled a joint report, which was well received by many people and recognised as a contribution. In the past year the committee visited the western Balkans and the Irish troops stationed there. We presented a report which was debated in the House. It touched on all the salient issues. In the past, members of this committee visited both sides of Cyprus officially and unofficially on the same day. Reports again followed, which took account of the very complex situation there, as was the case in Gaza and the western Balkans.

We are very conscious of the important and influential role which Turkey can play in all of those areas. We do not see or have ever seen a simple resolution. There cannot be simple resolutions to issues which have gone on for many centuries. It is always good to examine history in order to recognise what has happened in the past and then proceed progressively and constructively into the future. That is what we hope will happen. We hope we have set a template for that on the island of Ireland which has parallels with the conflicts which have been referred to by members of the committee. I ask Professor Dr. Davutoglu to condense the combined wisdom of the group of parliamentarians here into a comprehensive reply. He is better than I.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

I thank members for their comments and questions. They reflect the fact that the committee members are very interested in Turkish affairs. I am happy to listen to the comments and questions. There are many questions and I will try to refer to each of them. I will try to divide the questions into four categories. When I bring them together it will be easier to provide the answers.

I have to meet the Minister for Foreign Affairs shortly, but perhaps we can delay the meeting for ten or 15 minutes.

He is a nice man. He will wait.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

The first category concerns economic issues. Deputy Treacy——

H. E. Mr. Altay Cengizer

Professor Dr. Davutoglu can be relaxed. A politician is waiting for him. He will understand. Please try to answer the gamut of questions.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

Can we send a message to him?

H. E. Mr. Altay Cengizer

Yes, we are doing that.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

The Parliament is always more important than Ministers. We are accountable to the Parliament.

The first category concerns economic issues and the financial crisis. The second is Cyprus. I understand almost all of the committee members asked questions about Cyprus. The third category concerns regional issues such as the western Balkans, the Middle East and Afghanistan. The fourth concerns Turkish domestic politics, including freedom of expression, freedom of religious practice and how Turkish people perceive the European Union.

I will try to summarise my comments on the financial situation. The global economic crisis has affected Turkey, but not as much as other countries. It was a test for the Turkish economy in terms of finance, unemployment and exports. In G20 meetings, the Turkish case has been presented as the best response to the crisis. It became a success story and we shared our experience with many countries. Our banking system was tested and was very successful because no bank has failed. The banking system in Turkey is very strong.

Exports were influenced, not because of Turkish trade policy but because of a decrease in demand from the European Union. Our relations with other regions helped us a lot because Middle Eastern and Asian countries were less integrated with global economics and, therefore, demand did not decrease and we were able to compensate. Today the OECD expectation for next year is that Turkey will grow by 3.5% to 5.3%. We are more humble; Turkey declared 3.5% but the OECD expectation is 5.3%, while in the European Union it is below 1% in general.

We have several advantages, including a strong currency and a very dynamic population, and the environment is very suitable for foreign investment. I will give the committee one interesting statistic. In the past three years, the total foreign direct investment in Turkey totalled €60 billion, which means people trust Turkey, its political stability and legal system during the crisis. Foreign direct investment is the most difficult thing to get. We are very optimistic for the future and our economic relations with different regions are increasing.

On energy, Deputy Treacy referred to Nabucco. We have many projects which will make Turkey an east-west and north-south corridor in energy policies. Three pipelines will reach Ceyhan in southern Anatolia, which is close to Cyprus. One is from Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan from Caucasia, the second is from Kirkuk-Ceyhan from Iraq oil and the third will come from Samsun to Ceyhan from Russia and Kazakhstan to Ceyhan. Ceyhan will be one of the main ports for energy in Eurasia. Similarly, from east to west, we have the Nabucco project and connections with Iranian, Algerian and Iraqi natural gas. This will be the main alternative to Russian gas in the north. All of these projects will make Turkey much more important in the future, in terms of energy security for the European Union and trade route transportation. In that sense, we are very strong and ready to work with the European Union.

On Cyprus, I understand the views expressed. Cyprus is an island; Ireland is an island. In Ireland's imagination there may be some similarities. There are some, but let us examine them from another perspective. Although members of the committee visited Cyprus, there is an absence of proper information about the background of the crisis. Turkey did not intervene in Cyprus out of the blue. It did not keep Varosha as a ghost city. It was not just the properties of Greek Cypriots which were left; those of Turkish Cypriots in the south were also left. Why did it happen? We wish it did not happen.

For four hundred years Cyprus was a Turkish island and one cannot see any demographic changes. Greek, Christians and Muslims live together in a very peaceful manner. There was no single revolt until Turkey had to give the island to the British Empire in 1876 after the Crimean War. It changed the balance of power. Throughout those four centuries there was no Greek-Turkish tension in the island. It is not an historic problem, in that sense. When Cyprus became independent, it was an independence which was supported and granted by Turkey, Greece and Britain. A system was established in agreements in 1959 and 1960. Small pockets of Turks were living in different parts of the island. These small pockets were like ghettoes here and there and they were fragile and open to attack. In 1963, 1964 and 1967, three times, there were serious massacres by certain Greek nationalists because there was no security.

In 1974, there was a coup d’état by Greek officers that changed the status quo on the island. Turkey did not intervene. Greece intervened, and at the time it was run by a military dictatorship, against the Greek President Makarios. Based on the agreement, to restore the status quo, Turkey offered to Britain and Greece to intervene, together or alone, and Turkey had to intervene in 1974.

This demographic shift occurred at that time because of the coup d’état. From then until 2002 it was a UN case and negotiations had taken place several times. In 2004, there was a comprehensive study by Kofi Annan and Special Representative Alvaro de Soto, and they prepared a plan. Turkey pushed the negotiations and our Prime Minister spoke to Annan in Davos in 2004, asking him to keep working. We would move forward and support peace. I was on the Turkish negotiating team and after long negotiations we agreed on a plan.

The Greek Cypriot leader, Papadopoulos, also agreed with the plan and signed it. We assumed the plan would be accepted. When they went back, however, Papadopoulos asked his people to vote "no". It was only the decision of the people. They were encouraged by Papadopoulos. Had there been a solution then, there would not be a divided island today. Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots tried to reunite the island. The Greek Cypriot side rejected the agreement. We must be balanced about this. There would not be a crisis in the EU because there would be a united island, the rejection created that problem.

From 1974 until today, the Turkish Cypriot side was isolated and I am still upset about the sense of justice of European leaders. They were with us at Bergenstock — Verheugen, Schroeder, Chirac, Blair — in these meetings, directly or indirectly, and they made certain commitments. They said to the Turkish Cypriot side that if the Turkish Cypriots supported the agreement and the Greek Cypriot side did not, they would not be accepted as members and all embargoes and sanctions would be lifted. The referendum was held on 24 April and on 1 May, Greek Cypriots became full members of the European Union. Full membership was against the principle of the European Union because the EU does not accept any country if it has a territorial problem with any other country. In this case, the territory of Cyprus was not identified. What happened?

It is now 2010 and Turkish Cypriots are still under sanctions, they cannot trade, cannot put on cultural activities, cannot invite people to the northern part of the island. What is their crime? They supported the peace plan and voted for it. Varosha is a ghost city, while the northern Turkish side of Cyprus became a ghost country. They do not need anything because we support them but, like a ghost country, no one can go there. We offered to work on Varosha several times.

When the Greek Cypriots said "no", and the Europeans did not do anything for the past six years, they punished Turkey as well as Turkish Cypriots in 2006 by suspending eight chapters. We offered to open the ports and the EU said that it would like to see that. We said we would open all of the ports but the EU said to open only one port — Famagusta — on the Turkish Cypriot side. Although the EU promised, it did not accept this.

Today, the Ankara Protocol is a technical agreement that we are implementing. According to the Ankara Protocol we must open the Turkish market to all members of the EU. There are so many "made in Cyprus" products available today, there is full access for the EU, that can be checked. For services, if this is the principle, it should also be implemented for Turkish trucks in Europe. Turkish trucks cannot have access without permission, and there are visa requirements for Turkish businessmen. If access is part of the Ankara Protocol, it should apply to Turkey as well. If we open our ports to Greek Cypriots, why will Europe not open its airports to Turkish businessmen?

In spite of these experiences, where we lost confidence in the European sense of justice, when Papadopoulos died and Christofias became president, we encouraged Turkish Cypriots to start a new process. In the past two years, Talat and Christofias met 60 times. We want to have an early solution; we are ready to unite the island tomorrow. There could be another referendum tomorrow based on the Annan plan, or we are ready to accept a timeframe for serious negotiations. Greek Cypriots, however, are saying there should not be a timeframe, there is no rush, and there should not be any UN involvement. They want to continue with open-ended meetings. Why? It is because they want to use the Turkish accession process as a weapon against Turkey in the negotiations. They are blocking six more chapters, they want one more concession from Turkish Cypriots. This is not peace.

Turkish Cypriots assume that a population is regarded as second class if it is not allowed to move from one city to another. Greek Cypriots can visit all Turkish cities but Turkish Cypriots cannot come to Greece. I received a delegation of Greek Cypriots in my office but the Turkish Cypriot delegation cannot go to the office of the Greek Minister for Foreign Affairs.

We are pushing hard and in January, we made a new concession and accepted the main demand of Greek Cypriots — cross-voting. We hope they will respond positively but still they are responding negatively. We are working for peace. We want to separate the Cyprus US and the EU issue. Therefore it is important. I suggest, given the need to get more information from another perspective, the committee invite President Talat from Cyprus to appear before the committee to give his perspective. The committee can listen to the Cypriot side in regard to the European Parliament. I believe in the objectivity and wisdom of the Irish people. The committee can listen to him and try to see another perspective.

The third matter concerns several regional issues, for example, the Western Balkans and Afghanistan. We are active in regard to the Western Balkans because, as I explained, there is an historical background. Deputy Costello asked how we are managing these differences. All these people lived together for centuries. Therefore, Albanians and Chechens are now living in two different regions but in Istanbul one can find in an apartment that Albanians will live on one floor and Bosnians or Chechens on another floor. We are trying to help them to resolve their problems through conflict resolution. We are working very hard with Serbia and Bosnia Hertzgovinia.

In regard to regional issues, perhaps on another occasion I can provide more details.

Will the Turkish Foreign Minister use his position at the UN to try to drive that forward?

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

Yes we can do that and, indeed, our relations with Thailand and Burma. In Burma with the Arakan groups and others we have some connections we may use.

In regard to the domestic issue, there were certain questions about religious freedom. I do not know from where the committee got the information that converts to Christianity were prosecuted. Does the Senator mean this is being done by the lawyers and the legal system?

I am talking about the case of Hakan Tastan and Turan Topalwho were Muslim converts to Christianity who were prosecuted in October 2006.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

Do you mean they were killed?

No. They were prosecuted.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

Does the Senator mean they were charged?

Yes. I understand that case is still before the courts and that on 15 October 2009 five witnesses were called and that the court in Silivriadjourned the hearing to 28 January 2010 to listen to three more witnesses in that case.

What was the alleged charge?

The alleged charge was for violating article 301.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

Article 301 does not have any relation to religion.

I think it was for insulting Turkishness.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

That is something else.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

That is not religious freedom. Insulting Turkishness is another chapter. Even for that there is no single case continuing because it necessitates the permission of the Minister for Justice.

Some of the witnesses in this case did not even know the people who were charged.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

No, not at all.

Allow the Minister to conclude. He is under time constraints.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

If one goes to Istanbul one can see churches, mosques and synagogues next to each other with a tower, with a bell and not a tower without a minaret as in Switzerland. Where there are complaints about religious practice we are taking care of it because it is our religion. We made a chanting hour law that in every municipal administration there is need for a prayer place, we do not say mosque. Some people are transforming a house into a church and organising religious ceremonies in the house. If a Muslim does the same we are acting against Muslims because a religious place should be known for religious purposes. If there is any such complaint they should be glad this is a church. I assume that people are coming to an apartment here in Dublin, and arepraying but they do not call it a mosque. There may be legal issues but in the general sense there is no such a thing. Every day, even before coming here, I signed another regulation, which I submitted to the Prime Minister’s office, to enlarge even more the rights of religious minorities. Our Minister in charge of European affairs is meeting with the leaders of religious committees almost every week. This is misinformation.

Are there problems in rural areas?

I am sorry, Senator, we have to conclude.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

I thank the committee.

I am sorry the time is exhausted. This goes to show the interest in this meeting. I thank the Turkish Foreign Minister and his entourage, Ireland's ambassador to Ankara, the diplomatic corps, the press and all associated with the visit and wish you every success.

Professor Dr. Ahmet Davutoglu

I invite the committee to Turkey so that we can continue to answer your questions in my office.

Thank you.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.35 p.m. and adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 25 March 2010.
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