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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Mar 2010

Role of EU in Middle East Peace Process and Related Motions: Discussion.

I welcome Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, as chairman of the European Parliament delegation for relations with the Palestinian Legislative Council, and also Ms Nessa Childers, MEP.

We have apologies from Senator Paschal Donohoe and Deputy Billy Timmins. He cannot attend either because Dáil Question Time clashes with this meeting and there may be a number of other people that cannot attend.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On a point of information, do our MEPs have full privilege here as members of this committee?

No. MEPs have ex officio membership but privilege does not necessarily apply in that fashion.

I am sorry about that.

Are they supposed to be removed from that?

I am sorry.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

I wish it was.

I am quite certain that it will not affect the MEPs' loquaciousness at all.

Ms Nessa Childers, MEP

Just as a matter of fact, I think we are Members of the Oireachtas.

We regard ourselves as being the privileged ones this afternoon.

That is right.

That is an interesting point, Chairman.

No, we are not.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

We do not want to start a political debate here today.

We will not go there.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

Members of the European Parliament cannot be Members of the Oireachtas. We are not elected to the Oireachtas.

That is right.

Ms Nessa Childers, MEP

What are we dealing with here?

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

We are guests of the committee.

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak in my role as chair for the Delegation for Relations with the Palestinian Legislative Council. That is a mouthful so we usually shorten it to DPLC. For the record, I am also a member of the all-party European Parliament Middle East Working Group, led by Hans-Gert Pöttering, a former President of the European Parliament. That is an all-party group which meets on a regular basis. I am also a member of the Euro-Mediterranean Parliamentary Assembly. I believe some committee members are also members. It is hoped that it will become the parliamentary assembly of the Euro-Mediterranean Union.

The approach of the EU to the conflict in the Middle East has been set out in the most recent comprehensive statement of 8 December 2009, which states in the first paragraph:

The Council of the European Union is seriously concerned about the lack of progress in the Middle East peace process. The European Union calls for the urgent resumption of negotiations that will lead, within an agreed time-frame, to a two-state solution with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous and viable State of Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. A comprehensive peace, which is a fundamental interest of the parties in the region and the EU, must be achieved on the basis of the relevant UN Security Council resolutions, the Madrid principles, including land for peace, the roadmap, the agreements previously reached by the parties and the Arab peace initiative.

As Chair of the DPLC, and personally, that is the position which I support and which underlies all my comments and work on the matter. I can send a copy of this to the secretariat so that members can have this speech as delivered.

This position is supported fully by the European Parliament. It is referenced in the resolution we adopted on 10 March calling for the implementation of the Goldstone report on the war on Gaza. Members will recall that over 1,400 civilians died in that assault, including over 300 children. Also killed were 11 Israelis, including two civilians.

The committee's invitation to me is in the context of its consideration of a resolution to consider whether Article 2 of the EU-Israel association agreement has been breached by the parties to it, with regard to their human rights obligations. Members will be aware that the European Parliament takes very seriously the issue of respect for human rights which, under the treaties, are at the core of EU concerns both internally and internationally. For example, apart from ensuring in the course of our general work that human rights are taken into account in development, enlargement and trade policy, we also select three "urgent" human rights issues on the Thursday of each of our plenary sittings in Strasbourg.

At our last plenary sitting on Thursday, 11 March, we selected the case of Gilad Shalit, the young Israeli soldier who was taken prisoner by Hamas some four or five years ago, and called for his release. We took the escalation of violence in Mexico as an issue that needed to be addressed and chose the issue of legalisation of the death penalty in South Korea as one on which the Parliament should take a position. Resolutions were adopted on all three. We do this at each plenary session each month, taking one issue or another as appropriate in terms of the rules of the Parliament.

As members will know, the association agreement places obligations on both parties, Europe and Israel, to ensure the human rights of those for whom they are responsible, are respected. The agreement states that human rights "constitute an essential element of this agreement". It is beyond reasonable doubt that Israel and the EU are both in breach of their obligations under this agreement. Israel is in breach because of its continued occupation of the West Bank and its illegal annexation of east Jerusalem; its actions against the population of Gaza during its war on that area in December 2008 to January 2009; its blockade of that territory before and since that war; its daily restrictions on the movement of the people of the West Bank with over 600 checkpoints; its collusion in the eviction of families in east Jerusalem; and its detention of Palestinian children and 23 elected members of the Palestinian Legislative Council who were lifted by the Israeli authorities in retaliation for the taking prisoner of Gilad Shalit, some 40 members were arrested at the time of whom 23 remain in prison. Other Israeli breaches of the agreement are: the building of a 700 km security wall which illegally encroaches on Palestinian territory; and the planting of 500,000 Israeli citizens in settlements in the West Bank, including in east Jerusalem. These settlers are supported with subsidies, services and tax concessions. It should be borne in mind the number of settlers in the area has doubled compared with the figures at the signing of the Oslo Accords, 16 or 17 years ago. That agreement called for a reduction in the number of settlers. There are now 200,000 settlers in east Jerusalem and 300,000 in the West Bank.

There are also concerns about human rights in Israel itself, in particular with regard to the second-class citizenship status of the Israeli-Palestinian minority, which accounts for almost 20% of the population of Israel. More recently there are increasing signs of human rights defenders in Israel coming under pressure for having co-operated with the UN inquiry into the war on Gaza. This has also been adverted to in the European Parliament's Goldstone resolution.

Europe, the other party to the agreement, is guilty, in my view, of breaching it by failing to enforce a solemn international agreement and respect the imperative of the European treaties. This is particularly the case when one considers that in recent months it has taken action with regard to Sri Lanka and Guinea. In both those cases it suspended agreements with those countries because it considered that human rights were not being dealt with appropriately.

The effect of a suspension of the association agreement and a freeze on the development of relations would not prevent Israeli goods coming into EU member states, but these would not benefit from the free trade arrangements that currently apply. Europe currently imports €11 billion from Israel and exports €14 billion worth of goods to it. Ireland's share of that trade is €82 million and €300 million, respectively. Those imports would include imports by the Irish Defence Forces of military equipment. No doubt a suspension of the agreement would affect those exports, as Israel would be likely to retaliate.

A judgment on 25 February 2010 of the Court of Justice of the European Union in what is known as the "Brita Case" — Case number: C-386/08 — highlights the issue of goods being imported into the EU from illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank. It must be assumed that this includes east Jerusalem which is also illegally occupied under United Nations resolutions. The court found that such goods are not entitled to the benefits of the association agreement and that it is incumbent on Israel to produce documentation to the satisfaction of the importing state that the goods are from Israel proper, and not from settlements. It would be instructive to know what steps the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has taken to insist on such proof.

In my view, the findings of the Goldstone report should lead to a suspension of the association agreement with Israel. The Goldstone inquiry found evidence of breaches of human rights by both sides in Israel's last major offensive against Gaza, but predominantly by Israel, no doubt due to its overwhelming firepower. However, the most damning of all its findings is the conclusion in paragraphs Nos. 1883 to 1886: I shall quote these because it is important to take them all in context. Paragraph 1883 states:

The Gaza military operations were, according to the Israeli Government, thoroughly and extensively planned. While the Israeli Government has sought to portray its operations as essentially a response to rocket attacks in the exercise of its right to self-defence, the mission considers the plan to have been directed, at least in part, at a different target: the people of Gaza as a whole.

Paragraph 1884 states:

In this respect, the operations were in furtherance of an overall policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population for its resilience and for its apparent support for Hamas, and possibly with the intent of forcing a change in such support. The mission considers this position to be firmly based in fact, bearing in mind what it saw and heard on the ground, what it read in the accounts of soldiers who served in the campaign, and what it heard and read from current and former military officers and political leaders whom the mission considers to be representative of the thinking that informed the policy and strategy of the military operations.

Paragraph 1885 states:

The mission recognises that the principal focus in the aftermath of military operations will often be on the people who have been killed — more than 1,400 in just three weeks. This is rightly so. Part of the functions of reports such as this is to attempt, albeit in a very small way, to restore the dignity of those whose rights have been violated in the most fundamental way of all — the arbitrary deprivation of life. It is important that the international community asserts formally and unequivocally that such violence to the most basic fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals should not be overlooked and should be condemned.

Paragraph 1886 states:

In this respect, the mission recognizes that not all deaths constitute violations of international humanitarian law. The principle of proportionality acknowledges that, under certain strict conditions, actions resulting in the loss of civilian life may not be unlawful. What makes the application and assessment of proportionality difficult in respect of many of the events investigated by the mission is that deeds by the Israeli armed forces and words of military and political leaders prior to and during the operations indicate that, as a whole, they were premised on a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed not at the enemy but at the "supporting infrastructure." In practice, this appears to have meant the civilian population.

In other words the appalling devastation and death toll in Gaza, according to the Goldstone report, was not because individual soldiers did not follow orders but because they obeyed orders which originated at the highest political level.

Despite this finding by a reputable international team, which has been endorsed by the European Parliament and United Nations General Assembly, we find that on 22 March, instead of at least putting on hold any extensions of the agreement, the foreign affairs Council, attended by the Minister, Deputy Martin, approved a new protocol to the agreement further enhancing our co-operation with Israel. I refer to the decision COM (2009) 559, which approves a new protocol covering industrial products.

This issue has already landed on the desk of the European Parliament's international trade committee for consideration. The European Parliament cannot amend the proposal but with the new provisions of the Lisbon treaty, consent is required. We could refer it back to Council pending an inquiry into breaches of the association agreement, we could give consent or we could reject it outright, as we did recently with the SWIFT agreement with the United States on the transfer of financial information. This Oireachtas committee can also take a position on it.

I am on record as praising the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, for his insistence in going to see the awful consequences of the Israeli army's assault on the people of Gaza. He made a clear indication in an article he wrote for The New York Times subsequently, stating “I view the current conditions prevailing for the ordinary population [of Gaza] as inhumane and utterly unacceptable in terms of accepted international standards of human rights.” He went on to say “The European Union and the international community simply must do more to increase the pressure for the ending of the blockade and the opening of the border crossings to normal commercial and humanitarian traffic.”

In light of that statement it is utterly incomprehensible that he would vote last week for improved relations with Israel. It is time we had some joined-up thinking on human rights. I will conclude with a quote from Mr. Justice Richard Goldstone, who stated at the launch of his report on 29 September in Geneva:

Now is the time for action. A culture of impunity in the region has existed for too long. The lack of accountability for war crimes and possible crimes against humanity has reached a crisis point; the ongoing lack of justice is undermining any hope for a successful peace process and reinforcing an environment that fosters violence. Time and again, experience has taught us that overlooking justice only leads to increased conflict and violence.

I thank the committee.

I join with the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, who is chairman of the delegation to the Palestinian legislative authority. He is aware of the motions we have passed and I want to pay tribute to him for addressing the core issues in which this committee has an interest.

Like Mr. De Rossa, I am a member of the Euro-Med assembly and I was at the initial parliamentary assembly in Vouliagmeni just outside Athens. I was elected vice president for the first two years of the assembly and I have been attending it and various committees since. At that assembly the Irish delegation sits beside the Israeli delegation because it is arranged in alphabetical order. It is a fantastic assembly because it brings together all the countries of the European Union, north Africa and the Middle East along the Mediterranean fringe. It is fantastic to see all the people from these countries, Arabic and Israeli, sitting side by side with European countries, co-operating and trying to make the Mediterranean basin a better place to live.

That is not just a colourful introduction but rather where we would all like to be. We want all these countries to be able to co-exist in peace and harmony. In fairness to Mr. De Rossa, that is exactly how he began his contribution. I want Israel to be able to exist with its neighbours and have a close association with all the countries from the region. Europe, with its neighbourhood policy, will not only help those countries economically but it will also help the standards in human, women's and workers' rights. The EU improved our standards of rights from the time we joined and we all know the benefits accrued by us from European Union membership.

This has been the approach of the motions and discussions we have had. We want the same standard of human rights to be applied to Israel as to any other country under the European Union neighbourhood policy. People should not interpret this as being against any one country. Speaking for myself, I am not against anybody but I want prosperity and peace everywhere. The European Union, as the standard bearer and maker of standards, must insist that its neighbourhood relationships are based on that fundamental principle. If it is not, people are allowed to engage in activities facilitating inequality, which is not sustainable.

I missed the part of the contribution where Mr. De Rossa indicated Europe was in breach of the agreement because of a failure in enforcement. I did not get the full sense of that. He indicated he was monitoring the position closely, as is the European Parliament. Word has emerged that the Spanish Presidency is proposing a more comprehensive upgrading of the association agreement between the EU and Israel. Is that the case and does Mr. De Rossa know anything about it? Has a document been circulated in that respect?

In broader terms, if the EU threatened a suspension of the association agreement or withdrew an upgrade, what would be the reaction in Israel? Would it have a beneficial effect by raising the standard of adherence to human rights or could it have a negative effect and play into the hands of those who would use such a threat for their own political ends?

I thank Mr. De Rossa and Ms Childers for their attendance and compliment Mr. De Rossa on his fine, straightforward presentation on the situation. I also congratulate him on his election as chair of the European Parliament Delegation for Relations with the Palestinian Legislative Council.

Mr. De Rossa said the European Union was very strong on the issue of human rights and that debates are held in Strasbourg on a monthly basis. All trade agreements signed by the European Union now contain a human rights element and the matter is no longer just tagged on as a formality. Since the Lisbon treaty was signed there is a more coherent and structured commitment to human and civil rights with mechanisms such as the Charter of Fundamental Rights and a role for the European Court of Justice, all of which underpins the importance the European Union attaches to human rights.

In any trade agreement, such as the Euro-Med agreement with Israel, human rights are a serious factor. Can Mr. De Rossa comment on that point? Mr. De Rossa said there were trade agreements with Sri Lanka and New Guinea but that the EU had now withdrawn from them because both countries failed to adhere to human rights requirements. That sets a precedent for the European Union to decide not to continue with an agreement.

The Brita judgment seems to reflect a clear agreement that Israel is wrong to brand goods as Israeli if they come from the occupied territories. Is that now a definitive decision? What is the status of the Goldstone report? It was commissioned and adopted by the United Nations but where do things stand as regards its operation and implementation by the UN and EU member states?

I did not know that the Council of Ministers approved an upgrade of the association agreement at its meeting last week.

We never heard that.

We were never informed and it was not flagged at this committee. We expect to be notified of any upgrades or protocols added to an agreement which is so controversial.

By way of clarification, the Council continued with the agreement while investigations were taking place. We will come back to the matter.

I understood Mr. De Rossa to say that new protocols were added to the agreement.

He referred to improved relations.

He said there were new protocols in the context of improved relations. Whatever it is, it certainly is not a downgrade. I would be grateful if Mr. De Rossa would comment on that.

What is Mr. De Rossa's perception of the role of the European Union in the Middle East and as regards the Palestinian question? What is his view of the role of the United States and where does he see the Mitchell talks going?

I welcome Mr. De Rossa and Ms Childers. I am delighted that Mr. De Rossa has been elected chairman of the European Parliament Delegation for Relations with the Palestinian Legislative Council. It is a worthwhile appointment and it is appropriate that the position is to be held by an Irish MEP. The late Brian Lenihan, then Minister for Foreign Affairs, first recognised the rights of the Palestinians to self-determination, as against many other Ministers within the European Union. It was a courageous act and one which started the process on the road to where it is today.

I compliment Mr. De Rossa on his comprehensive report, which outlines the difficulties faced by Palestinians. He cites the situation in Bethlehem, which is a city under siege and is effectively an open prison surrounded by a grotesque wall. He said he met the deputy mayor of Bethlehem, who lost his own daughter when she was shot on her way to mass on Christmas Day. He also visited Hebron, as did I and the leaders of the Labour Party and the Green Party, as well as Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Senator John Paul Phelan and the late Tony Gregory some three years ago. Mr. De Rossa's account accurately reflects what happened to us. We visited the area beside the mosque where all the shops had been closed and there seems to have been no improvement since then. Hebron is very much a Palestinian city and should be devoid of settlers.

Mr. De Rossa's report also referred to the dangers at the Temple Mount, which Israeli tourists want to visit for one reason or another but where their presence causes tensions. He also spoke of the Wailing Wall but was not allowed to visit Gaza. I understand Ms Childers, MEP, visited Gaza as, eventually, did the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin. I hope Mr. De Rossa follows up on his visit by going to Gaza.

Having been a former Minister of State, I have certain sensitivities about issues such as trade agreements. Members should bear in mind that trade takes place in both directions and we sell quite a lot of products to Israel. Issues relating to economics and human rights come up quite often and such issues may arise in respect of China. We have sensitivities in that area but because of trade we continue to have contact. In the case of Israel, the figures might even be in favour of Ireland. The last time I checked, we were exporting more to Israel than we imported from Israel. It is important to bear this in mind because trade sometimes has to continue in such circumstances. However, Israel certainly has no right to export products from the Palestinian occupied territories under the agreement.

Is there any way in which Hamas can be influenced to be realistic and not give Israel an excuse to continue its isolation of Gaza on the basis of Hamas's non-recognition of the state of Israel and the determination to destroy the state of Israel, which is totally impractical? It could be ignored as an ideological wish. For long enough we sought a Thirty-two County Ireland and we had to accept Twenty-six Counties. It was still in our Constitution and we changed it because of the present agreement. It was a difficult choice but it was there in Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution and we changed them.

Mr. De Rossa may be in a position to influence Hamas in some way. I am pleased he met Hamas representatives during his tour and rightly so. To ignore the Hamas elected representative is not very productive. I encourage Mr. De Rossa to continue with that work. His link with the European Parliament, through this committee and through the Department of Foreign Affairs, is worthwhile. It is a very difficult task. I do not believe the EU has exerted the pressure and the influence it has at its disposal. As far as I am aware we are the largest contributors to Palestine, much more than the Americans, yet the US appears to have much more influence. The British who have clearly very close links to the establishment of the state of Israel and the division of Palestine do not appear to have great influence and do not give it the priority it deserves. I urge that we can continue the dialogue. Mr. De Rossa's appointment is welcome. In the Oireachtas one of the largest groups of friends of any particular country, outside of Ireland, is the Friends of Palestine. The group is there in the background to support him in any way we can.

I am very impressed with the work of Proinsias De Rossa as chairman of the delegation but I have a real concern that we are not getting closer to the solution that we have to find. Can we help in some way or other? I was delighted to hear that Senator George Mitchell had undertaken, after his success in Northern Ireland, to attempt to find a solution but the solution seems to be almost insurmountable while Hamas and Palestine do not recognise the right of Israel to exist. I am not sure if they still use those words but they were the words they used previously.

One has to wonder about the ability of any country to withstand the type of disproportionate pressure that occurred in Gaza two years ago when bombs were dropped on a continuous basis. This was aimed at creating the response which it got. It is likely that Israel will always show a disproportionate response to any attack on it. Is there any step we can take in Europe, given Mr. De Rossa's position, that will help find a solution that enables the Palestinians to say, "Yes, we are going to have to recognise that Israel has a right to exist"? If there is to be a two-state solution, everybody, whether the EU, the Americans or anybody else, has to believe in it. While Hamas and the Palestinians do not appear to accept that — correct me if I am wrong — it must be almost a hopeless task to try to find a solution unless we can manage to change that view. We found a solution in Northern Ireland. Hopefully, that solution will last but there will always be strains on it. It appears highly unlikely that we will be able to take the first steps towards that solution in Palestine and Israel unless we get those first steps in that direction from the Palestinians and that needs some leadership from Hamas. Does Mr. De Rossa see any sign of that happening?

It goes without saying that the committee, like the European Parliament, has at all times striven to be fair in the issues that have arisen. They are not issues that have arisen in recent times but have been going on for as long as I have been around. I remember as a much younger person than I am now reading the history of that region and nothing seems to have changed. One thing we try to do at all times is to be reasonably fair to all sides. The committee has gone out of its way to do that. With that in mind the committee, along with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, decided to visit that region. It is true as Mr. De Rossa and members have said that it is not a simple situation. If it was it would not be awaiting a solution for so long. The issues are at least as complicated as they were in Northern Ireland but in all similar conflicts that applies. There are certain similarities and there are areas that differ but generally speaking there are more similarities in those situations than there are differences between one and the other. We know all the various flashpoints that we have referred to previously.

Mr. De Rossa's address to the committee has been very useful and constructive. It is appropriate that the European institutions would have a view and would take relevant action. It is equally appropriate that the member states that constitute the EU would also have a fair-minded view. The views expressed would in some way be of assistance in attempting to point out the difficulties and a possible resolution. A resolution does not come easy as we are all aware. As time goes on, we should be conscious that it makes matters worse. Every new atrocity and every new issue makes the situation more precarious. Every time one gets to a point where the solution seems imminent and it breaks down, there is a further problem for succeeding years. That has been the history here, in the Middle East and also in the western Balkans. It is wrong to suggest the international community is disruptive by showing an interest. Human rights is and always has been a very important issue and rightly so. Anything that impinges on the human rights of communities or nations is a serious issue, therefore we must address those issues.

I congratulate Mr. De Rossa and his delegation for their visit and his address to the committee today. It is over to him to wrap up on the subject.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

I thank the Chairman and members for their kind remarks. In regard to the Euro-Med assembly, I reiterate that Israel is also a member of that assembly. At a recent meeting which I attended, there were at least half a dozen resolutions carried in respect of social, political and human rights and a whole range of issues that affect all the countries in that region. Of course there were differences of opinion on a range of different aspects but it was possible, by and large, to reach agreement.

I am keen to stress the point, as I did in the opening statement, that I do not question in any way the right of Israel to exist as a state. It is a legitimate entity as far as I am concerned. I would defend it and I have defended it on Irish radio on "Morning Ireland" when people attempted to compare it with Iran. That is absolutely not the case. Israel is a democratic society and like all democratic societies, it has its faults. Some of its faults are extreme but it is important that we are even-handed in the way we address those faults. There are faults also on the Palestinian side. Members will see from the report that we raised the case of Gilad Shalit and objected strongly to the use of and firing of rockets from Gaza. Had we got into Gaza we would have made that point very strongly to those we met there. I emphasise that we do not meet members of the Hamas organisation. We meet the elected representatives of Hamas, people who stood for election on the Hamas ticket and were elected. We do not meet militants in terms of armed organisations and so on. We simply do our job as elected representatives of the European Parliament and according to our relations with the elected members of the PLC.

One of the critical points with regard to getting agreement on final status issues is the division between the Palestinian factions. The Fatah organisation essentially makes up the Palestinian Authority that is now based largely in Ramallah and also has elected members in the Gaza Strip. We do not have the time to go into the whole matter in detail but there is a division between Hamas and Fatah. Efforts have been made to try to bring them together and this is the policy of the European Union, as members will find in the statement Catherine Ashton made in Cairo some two weeks or ten days ago. She emphasised that one of the things that must happen is that reconciliation be found between Fatah and Hamas. We are willing to help to try to achieve that.

As a politician, I have argued that we cannot ignore an organisation which in the last election won a majority among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. However, the Hamas organisation is on the terrorist lists of the European Union and the United States, so that cannot be ignored either. The Quartet has laid down a number of conditions for Hamas as follows: to engage in negotiations; to have face to face negotiations on accepting a previous agreement which concerned acceptance of the legitimacy of the state of Israel; and to end violence. I believe there is a fourth condition but it does not come to mind right now.

My argument has been that these are generalised statements and there is no benchmark for anybody, neither Hamas nor the international community, to decide or come to a conclusion that Hamas has met those conditions or that it has not done so. Work needs to be done and I have said this to Catherine Ashton and others. Work must be done by the European Union, the United States and the Quartet to refine those conditions so that there is a benchmark and that we can know when Hamas has reached and complied with those conditions.

It must be said that the Hamas people I have met have made it very clear that, as far as they are concerned, Hamas is an organisation which is committed to democracy and a two-state solution, that it is committed to negotiating a two-state solution and not achieving it by violence. Nevertheless, there are elements of Hamas which believe otherwise, just as there elements of the IRA that believed they should not be involved in the negotiations in which they became involved. The consequence is that those people who believed that now make up the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA and continue on their merry way. Therefore, we must find ways of drawing in the people who want a peaceful solution and bringing them to the fore. I do not think that can be achieved by simply saying, "Sorry, you're outside the Pale and therefore we cannot talk to you". I am aware there are informal contacts with Hamas. That is the reality. Even if these are only proximity contacts, to use the current phrase, the fact is that a ceasefire was negotiated between Hamas and Israel in 2008 which lasted for six months. It was negotiated through intermediaries but there was that contact even though I am sure it was not a direct one.

There is potential if there is a willingness. It is a mistake to see Hamas, any more than any other political organisation, as a completely homogeneous organisation. People support it for a range of different reasons and there are very many people in Gaza who do not support Hamas at all. I have met members of Hamas such as the young women who wear lipstick and jeans and whatever when in their private homes. Unfortunately, because of the way the Hamas organisation currently rules Gaza, increasingly one sees women in the streets who are covered up. I do not accept that at all and have no time whatsoever for the fundamentalism of the Hamas organisation as such. Nevertheless it is important that we deal with the political realities we have.

A specific question was asked with regard to the Spanish Presidency and upgrading. There was a proposal to upgrade relations with Israel in 2008. That was put on hold following the events in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009 and those particular plans have not been revived. They concerned the European neighbourhood programme and the action plans covered under that. What the speaker probably meant is what I mentioned earlier in respect of the protocol on the association agreement which covers industrial goods. In my view, this is an issue that the committee should look at. The European Parliament is to consider it.

I was asked what will be the reaction in Israel. It is true that I have as many friends in Israel as in Ramallah. Probably because of my politics the friends I have in Israel would be supportive of Europe being strong on the issue of human rights. This would not necessarily be the view of society as a whole in Israel. There are arguments and counterarguments. However, there are non-governmental organisations in Israel that support the suspension of the agreement but this would not be the general view of the Israeli population.

I mentioned that the European Parliament addresses the issue of human rights on a regular basis. The Commission also does so as does the Council. For example, there is a European agency for human rights based in Vienna which deals with the issue of internal human rights in the European Union. There is also a sub-committee in the European Parliament which deals with the issue of human rights externally. It produces an annual report on the state of human rights in various countries in the world at large.

On Sri Lanka, that country gave an undertaking to introduce legislation guaranteeing the human rights of Sri Lankan citizens and it did so. However, according to a report prepared for the Commission, the finding was that the legislation was not being implemented properly and in consequence a decision was not to proceed with giving special tariff arrangements for Sri Lankan goods coming into the European Union. That report is dated 19 October 2009: the reference number is C/2009/7999.

Regarding the Brita judgment, this relates to a company which is essentially German but has subsidiaries in both Israel and the settlements. There was an objection to the importation of its drinks. Brita is a drinks and water company. There were objections in Germany to it importing goods from the settlements. The German court found against the company, which appealed to the European Court of Justice and it also found against the company stating that it was not entitled to the benefits of the EU-Israel association agreement because the goods were being brought from an area that was occupied by Israel and which was not legal. It found that the agreement only covers Israel proper and not territories that Israel was occupying. I have a copy of the court decision which I can show to anybody who wishes to view it.

The Goldstone report was approved by the United Nations General Assembly. The parties to which it related, the Palestinian authorities and the Israeli authorities were asked to initiate themselves independent credible inquiries into the Goldstone report. They were given three months to undertake that work and come back. There was a further report by the Secretary General that indicated that work had begun but not progressed sufficiently to make a decision on whether these inquiries that had been initiated by the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli Government met the conditions of independence, credibility, good faith, etc. A further six months were given, which I believe expire in June or July.

A week ago the human rights council of the European Union under the terms of the Goldstone report asked for a body of experts to be appointed to monitor the progress being made on these inquiries. As I am sure members are aware, a few weeks ago the European Parliament adopted a resolution supporting the Goldstone report and calling on the European Union member states, Council and Commission to monitor its implementation and act on its recommendations.

Members have all received a copy of the report on the visit and I do not propose to dwell on it. As I did before, I welcome that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, went to Gaza. Unfortunately he was refused permission to go through the Erez crossing from Israel and had to enter from the Egyptian side across the Rafah crossing. He reported on what he saw and it was very important for the credibility of this State and also for the people of Gaza to see they were not forgotten by the rest of the world. It is extremely important that the people do not lose hope that there are people who are concerned about their condition. We need to bear in mind that 80% of the population depend on food aid. Many of them are still living in tents because of the destruction of their homes. There is virtually no business and so on. It is an awful situation. If they lose hope then of course they will turn to the men of violence and that is not what we want.

I made the point in my contribution that based on 2007 figures Ireland exports approximately €82 million worth of goods and services to Israel and we import approximately €300 million worth of goods and services. Suspension of the agreement would not stop imports or exports to and from Israel. It would remove the advantages the association agreement gives to those exports and imports. The consequence would presumably be that goods being imported from Israel into Ireland would be more expensive. What is most important would be the political signal such a decision or even a proposal for such a decision would give and would encourage Israel to comply with its human rights obligations.

Senator Quinn and the Chairman asked about the steps to find a solution. It would not be true to say that nothing has changed. Things are constantly changing. They are nothing like as hopeful or optimistic as they were following the Oslo agreement. On the Palestinian side there is a high level of exasperation that after 16 years the objectives of the Oslo agreement have not been implemented. They are extremely reluctant to go back into another negotiation process, which means they would need to go back to scratch and start all over again or that they would need to accept the negative things that have happened in the meantime, such as the issue of settlements.

It would be instructive to look at a map showing how the settlements have broken up the territory of the West Bank. It is like looking at a Swiss cheese, where the Palestinians live in the holes. The settlements by and large are based on hills and are growing by the day despite so-called freezes. They are large towns with populations of up to 20,000 or 30,000. They are not little patches of ground with half a dozen settlers on them. It is a policy supported by the Israeli Government through subsidies, the delivery of services, the building of roads linking them directly to Israel and the provision of tax breaks to those who move. It is not as though everybody going into a settlement in the West Bank is a religious zealot; they are not. Many of them are people who find it cheaper to buy a home there and move there to live. That is the reality. There are now twice as many settlers living on Palestinian territory and there are questions about how they come to have control of that territory.

The settlement issue is really important. If tomorrow, as we would all hope, there was a resolution the probability is that some will be withdrawn but some will stay. For instance the Arab peace initiative proposes land for peace where land would be transferred from the West Bank into Israel proper and land from Israel transferred into the West Bank with the border being redrawn around the margins. It must be borne in mind that large numbers of settlers are located deep inside the West Bank and there is no doubt that they would need to be withdrawn or become Palestinian citizens of the new state. I have no objections to Israelis, Jews or anybody else living in the Palestinian territory if they become citizens of that area, just as the Palestinians in Israel are Israeli citizens. They complain about the status they have as Israeli citizens, but nevertheless they are there and there is potential for a solution. The Arab peace initiative is important to the Quartet. Many plans have been put forward that deserve consideration.

The Hamas issue must be addressed. Nobody should underestimate the fears of Israelis in regard to their security. Those fears are very real and are influenced by factors of history and geography. Israel is surrounded by Arab states, one of which, Iran, constantly threatens to annihilate it. Hamas, at least in its constitution, has indicated its support for the annihilation of Israel. It is a question of how we get to a point where we can reduce those fears and at the same time ensure that a viable independent Palestinian state can be established as a neighbour of Israel and that at least the Arab states in the area — including Syria, Jordan and Lebanon — are included in the peace arrangement. Both the European Union and the United States have emphasised the importance of a multilateral peace. It is not just a peace between Israel and the Palestinians that is required but a multilateral agreement. Otherwise Israel's security cannot be guaranteed.

The security of Israel is at the heart of the issue. We cannot easily appreciate the extent to which it is fundamental to the existence of the state. Mr. De Rossa spoke about people in Israel with whom he is friendly. Many people who were involved over the years in peace movements in Israel and who were very supportive of the peace process and a two-state solution have expressed concern about recent developments. For example, the writer, Amos Oz, initially supported the operation in Gaza, although he subsequently called for it to end. We should not underestimate the impact the rockets have had on people in Israel, as well as the false dawns in terms of progress in the peace process. We must consider how to address the deep fear that is evident in public perceptions in Israel.

Is Mr. De Rossa of the view that there has been significant progress in terms of the European Union and its member states developing a common view on how to deal with this issue? What steps does he recommend to be taken to deal with human rights breaches by Hamas against, in the first instance, its own people in Gaza? Hamas must be included, if at all possible, in negotiations on securing a peace, but it must take certain steps before that can be done. Mr. George Mitchell has set out some of the actions the organisation should take toward this end. It is my understanding that there is broad acceptance of that in the international community and that Israel is also in agreement with it. Can Mr. De Rossa clarify that?

Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

I thank the Deputy for her questions. On Israeli public opinion, my understanding from polls I have seen is that there is still a majority in favour of a two-state solution under certain conditions and in the context of an overall peace agreement that would guarantee security for the state of Israel. I am often reminded when discussing this issue that for many years I argued that Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution should be reformed. I got nowhere with that and the view was that it would simply never happen as far as the Oireachtas and the public were concerned. However, when that issue was put in the context of an overall package guaranteeing certain matters in regard to the population of Northern Ireland, the relationship between North and South, the establishment of North-South ministerial bodies, the relationship between Britain and Northern Ireland and so on, it was acceptable to the population of this State to change Articles 2 and 3. There was an acceptance of the principle of unity of the people of Ireland as distinct from territorial unification, borders and so on.

There is an organisation called OneVoice — I am not sure whether representatives have attended a meeting of the committee — which operates on the basis of putting various proposals and combinations thereof to both Palestinians and Israelis for acceptance or rejection. The results of these surveys show that none of the other solutions offered, such as a one-state solution or a no-state solution, that is, a joint, consociational state on the whole territory, gains any significant support among either Palestinians or Israelis. The one solution that attracts substantial support on both sides is the two-state solution, bearing in mind all the caveats regarding independence for the Palestinians, security for Israelis and so on. That is a hopeful sign.

Deputy Tuffy asked whether the European Union has managed to come to a conclusion or a common position on the Middle East situation. I sometimes bore people to tears by referring to the European Union statement of 8 December 2009, the first paragraph of which I referred to in my submission, which laid out in straightforward detail what the Union wants in terms of a negotiated settlement. Ms Catherine Ashton has argued that it should be the reference document for negotiations involving the Quartet. The paper, which is only two or three pages long, is well worth reading. However, like all such papers, it is a dense document which must be read carefully. Every word has a meaning and every sentence hangs together with the next. It is the first time I can recall that the European Union has produced a comprehensive position that was agreed by all member states.

In regard to human rights breaches by Hamas, I take every opportunity to raise these matters with the Palestinian leadership. I issued a statement condemning the death of the unfortunate man in the south of Israel who was killed by Hamas rocket fire. I do not agree with the use of violence by Hamas or anybody else in the Middle East. There are all types of arguments about legitimacy in terms of liberation struggle and so on. The bottom line is that violence is wrong and should not be supported. If we had been able to speak to Hamas representatives in Gaza last December, I would have said exactly the same to them. The previous year, when I visited Gaza immediately after the war, I raised the Gilad Shalit issue with the Hamas representatives we met. One would think I would be surrounded by stony faces but when we thought we were getting into Gaza in December, we met the Speaker of the PLC, who happened to be a Hamas representative, and we asked him about the possibility that we would be allowed to visit Gilad Shalit when we got into Gaza. He said we would have to ask when we got there. Unfortunately we did not get there but we intend to try again.

I thank Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, Chairman of the European Parliament Delegation for Relations with the Palestinian Legislative Council, for addressing the committee. The address and the related discussion will be used as the basis for the compilation of a report the exact status of which will be determined by subsequent discussions in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.05 p.m. and adjourned at 3 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 April 2010.
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