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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on the Review of the Role of the Oireachtas in European Affairs) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 May 2010

Role of the Oireachtas: Discussion

I welcome the witnesses and apologise for the delay in getting started. Some members were delayed in traffic.

Before we begin I wish to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome our guests, Dr. Gavin Barrett, University College Dublin, Mr. Pat Cox, president of the European Movement International, and Mr. Brendan Halligan, chairman of the Institute of International and European Affairs. It is a privilege to have such distinguished guests as witnesses before the committee. I invite Dr. Gavin Barrett to make his presentation.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

I thank the sub-committee for the invitation to appear before it. The work the sub-committee is doing is of great importance in terms of the development of democracy in this country. We are living in a time when, perhaps with the benefit of hindsight, it has become clear to us just how high the cost can be of not having appropriately rigorous and effective systems of accountability at all levels of Irish society. I see the work of the sub-committee as fitting very much into that context, designing a system of democratic accountability appropriate in European matters in 21st-century Ireland. No one should operate outside some system enforcing day-to-day accountability, obviously that includes the Executive.

The opportunity for reform provided by the need to implement the Lisbon treaty reforms is one that is unlikely to come around again quickly, therefore optimum use needs to be made of the opportunity we now have. We do well to remind ourselves that in examining these issues we are not alone but we are looking at matters that are occupying legislatures in other member states. Our failure in the past to address adequately matters of democratic accountability means we have more ground to make up in Ireland than do other member states.

The Lisbon treaty, elaborated on by the new Article 29.4.8° of the Constitution and by the provisions of the European Union Act 2009, provides us with certain challenges, the need for a system to implement the subsidiarity control mechanism, the need to be able to operate our national parliamentary veto on shifts at European level to qualified majority voting under the so-called Passerelle procedure and the need to filter the vast quantities of information being supplied directly to this and every other parliament in the EU from the EU itself. Those challenges form only part of the agenda that needs to be looked at. In essence, there are five areas, all of which must be addressed individually in order for the democratic role of the Oireachtas to be properly vindicated in respect of European affairs and for a proper system of accountability to be established. The five areas are as follows: first, the Oireachtas needs a system to deal with the situation before draft legislation is formally adopted at EU level, in other words, the time in which legislation is brewing but has not yet been dished out of the cauldron in draft form; second, the Oireachtas needs a system to deal with the position once draft legislation is formally proposed at EU level; third, the Oireachtas needs a system to deal with a situation where statutory instruments are adopted in Ireland in order to implement directives and regulations adopted at EU level; fourth, the Oireachtas needs a system to deal with a position where EU initiatives do not involve the adoption of legislation but some other means of policy making; and, fifth, the Oireachtas needs a system to deal with the occurrence of special events, such as the attempt to change to QMV using the Passerelle procedure at EU level or, perhaps, the accession of a new member state.

If the Oireachtas does not have a system for dealing with each of these situations it will not meet the democratic challenge which is posed by membership of the European Union. In so far as time permits, perhaps I can deal with these five headings in slightly more detail. In regard to a system for influencing policy making in the period before draft legislation is formally adopted at EU level, most commentators would agree that if one wishes to influence policy making at EU level, it is necessary to intervene as early as possible. Intervening only at the time draft legislation is proposed is almost too late because the parameters of the debate have already been established by the time legislation is drafted. If the Oireachtas wants to intervene effectively it must set up a system whereby it is capable of and regularly does intervene, prior to the actual emergence of legislation in draft form. Of course, its legislation must also be informed because obviously only well-informed views are likely to have any persuasive power that tends to impact on the legislative agenda. The Oireachtas needs to use the resources at its disposal: its research staff, those who facilitated some of the very good research work that has been done here in recent times; the availability for involvement of Irish MEPs; and less obviously but just as crucially, the availability of other Oireachtas committees, perhaps more expert in particular sectoral matters such as agriculture, transport and fisheries.

Research has shown that the most effective intervention on the part of national parliaments comes from those parliaments which share out the work of ensuring accountability rather than concentrating it on one or even two European Union committees. There are, of course, documentary resources, such as the Lisbon treaty, the Oireachtas EU liaison office, and the availability of individual Oireachtas members to act as rapporteurs. Other resources exist for the present as possibilities, such as the possibility of having commissioners appear to explain draft legislative programmes and to answer questions. In other words, there are resources out there which can be deployed in order to influence the pre-legislative agenda but they need to be organised into a system with specific aims. An example of a specific aim might be, for example, that all green and white papers be made the subject of a European affairs committee report. That is the pre-legislative system.

Second, a system is needed to deal with the position once draft legislation is formally proposed at EU level. This has two main aspects. The first is controlling what Government Ministers agree to in Council and the second is the operation of the subsidiarity control mechanism. Controlling what Ministers agree to in Council will remain the main democratic function of national parliaments in respect of European Union affairs. At present in Ireland, there is simply not enough ministerial accountability. It is true that the Minister for Foreign Affairs meets monthly with the Joint Committee on European Affairs prior to the General Affairs and External Relations Councils but what of other Council configurations such as ECOFIN, justice and home affairs, transport, employment and social policy? Unless all of the relevant Ministers are required to report back to Oireachtas committees, the Oireachtas is not controlling what Irish Ministers are agreeing to in these Council configurations. Of course the Joint Committee on European Affairs obviously cannot possibly do the work of hearing so many Ministers. Europewide, the best functioning control systems involve spreading out work among all parliamentary committees. A better approach is to share out the workload and the expertise in European affairs by obliging every Minister participating in Council meetings to have meetings with the relevant sectoral committee. It is true that as the system currently operates, there will be very little incentive for busy Ministers to appear before the relevant sectoral committees and that is why as recommended by the Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union, it seems well nigh indispensable at the least, to have a scrutiny reserve mechanism analogous to that of the United Kingdom Houses of Parliament in order to give teeth to the committee and to enforce the duty of Ministers to appear before it. It might be necessary to give control of such a mechanism to one particular committee such as the European affairs committee. Ireland is very much behind other member states in this regard.

Some member states have gone well beyond the scrutiny reserve system and have established a mandate system. That is one aspect of control of the draft legislative agenda. The other is the subsidiarity control mechanism. The bark of this mechanism, if applied only literally, is probably more significant than its bite, since European institutions to my mind do not appear to be serial abusers of subsidiarity but it is at the very least a first step and an opening of a crack in the door to greater generalised involvement of national parliaments in European matters. It will enable national parliaments for the first time to be direct interlocutors with the Commission during the process of legislation. If successful, it may lead to national parliaments becoming as Brendan Halligan once described, "a virtual third chamber" at European Union level, beyond the Council and the European Parliament. Obviously, this mechanism requires a fast response carried out in a matter of eight weeks, which will require direction by a committee, probably the EU affairs committee or a committee put in place especially for this purpose, perhaps under the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad.

Although a vote is allocated to each House of Parliament for the purposes of the orange and yellow cards systems, given the speed of response required, it is probably better for the Oireachtas as a whole to cast two votes, rather than each individual House coming to its own separate conclusion. As with all of the other control mechanisms, I think maximised involvement of the expertise of other Oireachtas committees would seem desirable.

We have looked at the need for systems dealing with the pre-legislative phase at European level and the draft legislative phase, but I think we need a system to deal with the case where measures are adopted in Ireland in order to implement directives and regulations adopted at European Union level. In particular, what is needed is better democratic control of the use of secondary legislation, statutory instruments as opposed to Acts of the Legislature in order to implement EU directives. Of course there is already a system in place to exercise control over implementation and moreover it is the system with the longest pedigree, tracing its origins back to the establishment of the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities in 1973, but notwithstanding its longevity, the reality is that it does not really function properly and little real control appears to be exercised in relation to secondary legislation. Part of the problem is that members are not made aware of what statutory instruments are being adopted until after they have been adopted. Although comment is possible at that point, it never happens with part of the problem being a lack of parliamentary time being allocated for this purpose. The end result has been the large-scale use of statutory instruments to implement all kinds of European rules, including since the coming into force of the European Communities Act 2007, the creation of indictable offences, with virtually no Oireachtas control worthy of the name. Even where it would be more appropriate to act via an Act of the Oireachtas or where the drafting of the legislation is flawed and inappropriate, it is possible to envisage a better way of doing things. One approach might be e-mailing or posting the drafts of statutory instruments which are being adopted to implement EU requirements to all Oireachtas members a minimum period before they are brought into force. Debating time in either House could be provided if more than a certain minimum number of Oireachtas Members wanted to query any aspect of a statutory instrument. The Government could be required to justify its position before the committee or the Dáil in plenary session if more than a certain minimum number of Members objected to the adoption of the relevant item in the form of secondary legislation.

The fourth aspect is a system to deal with situations where EU initiatives do not involve the adoption of legislation. This would include, for example, the EU's foreign and security policy but it would also include the operation of the so-called open method of co-operation. This is a process of peer review which has been introduced at European Union level and is being increasingly deployed as an apparently more palatable option than handing over broader powers of legislative initiative to the European Commission because it does not involve the adoption of legislation and it generally escapes parliamentary control. That is something that needs to be looked at and corrected.

Another area that could be looked at is the actions of the social partners during what is called the social dialogue process which is part and parcel of the adoption of legislation at European level. Calling in social partners at Irish and European level plus the relevant Minister and-or Commission officials might be a useful process. In relation to bringing in the relevant officials involved at both Irish and European level, the need for democratic control is very acute and needs to be looked at very carefully.

Fifth, I think the system needs to deal when special events, so I mentioned for instance the deployment of the Passerelle clause, the attempt to change to qualified majority voting at EU level or perhaps the accession of a new member state. This is likely to be a rare enough event and perhaps a debate of a plenary session of both Houses might be sufficient to deal with it. However, the matter does need to be reflected upon.

Let me come to three quick conclusions. One conclusion that I want to point out and that research has shown, is that parliaments that use the entire committee system are much more effective in controlling their executives and exercising control in EU matters than systems that try to heap all of the burden on one or two committees That is something that needs to be borne in mind. Second, and this is a slightly pessimistic note, research has also shown, principally by Professor Tapio Raunio at the University of Tampere in Finland, that the most effective parliaments in trying to exercise control in relation to EU matters are the parliaments which are generally effective in relation to most other matters. This is a fairly unpromising context for Ireland in that we have one of the most unbalanced executive-parliament relationships in Europe, but in the reform process a start has to be made somewhere and it might as well be made here as anywhere else. I need not remind members of the problems in this regard. The continuous decades of long unwillingness of the Executive to submit itself to serious control by the Oireachtas is one element of it and also the fact there is very little incentive for Oireachtas Members to carry out scrutiny work because it tends not to be rewarded at electoral level. That raises broader issues such as the electoral system in the country.

The third point, as I mentioned at the outset, is that there are lessons to be learned from other member states. If we look at the kinds of reports being done by COSAC we can see some of the kinds of ideas that have been produced by other member states' parliaments. I might come back to that point later, but I have probably used up more than my ten minutes allocation at this stage.

Mr. Pat Cox

I thank the sub-committee for the invitation to join members. Let me locate my remarks in a slightly different context. The Lisbon treaty clearly has been a game changer in a number of respects to do with institutions and how they work and these kinds of considerations flow from it. I think also it must be looked at in a dynamic context, in other words, it facilitates the happening of things and they will happen in a different way and those dynamics themselves are worth trying to take into account.

Let me begin with a general remark about the nature of the national debate on Europe in which the Houses of the Oireachtas have an important role to play and this committee has a leading role to play. It is self-evidently the case that when we have episodic events like having to cope with referenda, they would seem to suggest that we are Europeanised as a society - we have polls that indicate 85% of people think it is a good thing that Ireland is in the EU and so on. Those kinds of opinions are a mile wide and an inch deep, or the metric equivalent. This should be of some concern to the Oireachtas. We in Ireland have not really taken the time to develop a contemporary narrative of Ireland's role in the world and the European Union and of how this is an important, indispensable and, probably, the only realistically available framework for the evolution of these wider relationships.

I mentioned the alignment debate. Our European narrative has been very strong on economism. When we had our first referendum, we emphasised the benefits to agriculture and the benefits to the Exchequer through someone else paying the bill. When we talked about the Maastricht treaty, we were more mesmerised by the billions than by the content, including, as we more fully appreciate now, the enormous consequences for policy of joining the eurozone currency and what it should mean for the making of public policy. When we married our European bride in 1973, we were more taken with her dowry than herself, but we need to go beyond the dowry and spend some time reflecting on the nature of the marriage and the relationship.

There is a limited awareness of how the European Union works. Outside specialist committees of the Oireachtas, there is even a limited awareness among elected representatives, no less than among the population at large. In general, we have not sought to integrate an EU programme across our syllabus in schools. I do not mean that we should insist this should be a part of the syllabus for the civics programme in transition year. While that is useful, the programme should be available more widely. It should be part of how we teach history, geography, statistics, etc. We could spend some time looking at that, the better to inform a rising generation about how systems work and how these interconnections stand.

St. Columbanus, who lived a long time ago, was widely perceived to be the first person to talk about totius Europae, all of Europe, but he also remarked, before he died in Bobbio in Italy, that the Irish were the ultimi habitatores mundi, that we came from the edge of the world. We live on the edge and the European framework is under-explored in our national narrative and our education system. I would look to the specialist committees of this House to encourage a wider debate with those in the education system who are charged with responsibility for curriculum development. This may look like an out of area activity, but it is absolutely essential and would seem to me a useful add-on to the work of the committee. I know the committee has much to do and even more to do than before, due to the new post-Lisbon arrangements, but this is important.

A second dimension, and this complements Dr. Barrett's remarks, which I compliment for their quality with an observation, namely, that interventions in the European Union, whether at the drafting stage or at the legislative stage, require Ireland to raise its game. We will have a realignment of how our foreign offices work, in part because there will be an European External Action Service, but I do not know what exactly is involved. It would be worth inviting people from the Department of Foreign Affairs to explore what this will mean for the practice of Irish foreign policy, and, specifically, what it may mean for freeing up some resources that could be recycled into other things - not to get rid of people, but to address new priorities. These new priorities must, certainly with regard to the unfinished enlargements in the western Balkans, starting but not ending with Croatia, be concerned with a larger, more diverse, more complex European Union. In that regard, we need to develop our capacity for more intensive, bilateral relations and to seek out those where we can make common cause. Our diplomats have a particular gift at doing that and have served the State well, but this area is an underdeveloped space in our diplomatic activity. It has to do with the bargaining that either builds majorities that win for what one wants in Europe or, in the legislative process, builds blocking minorities so that if one does not want something to get through, more homework will be required to be done. This requires parallel accountability. We should call in those officers of the State whose job it is to do these things - in sectoral Departments and in the Department of Foreign Affairs - to deal with accounts of performance and non-performance and to make that part of the work of this committee.

Dr. Barrett commented on the transposition phase. In that phase, the widespread use of statutory instruments has probably meant that the transposition function has not received the focus or accountability it may need. Members of this committee will find as politicians that, frequently, the implementation part of the transposed law produces questions, some of which, when we compare the outcomes with other states, turn out, perhaps, to have been a rather zealous excess in the matter of transposition. This is not merely a technical issue but trickles down to solid practical political effects in terms of administration and policy choice. It is the kind of process that needs its hour in the sun, but it has remained very much, in our experience in the European Union, in the shade.

I would like to make a second general point. This concerns something nobody does but which, perhaps, a specialist European committee should take charge of doing. We are now part of a global economy and are one of the most globalised economies in the world in terms of openness to trade. The European Union - notwithstanding its 480 million citizens in the 27 European Union states - struggles still and will continue to struggle post Lisbon to better find its self-expression on the global stage in a world where we talk about one plus one, the United States and China or the G20. These are not formations where the European Union is central, although it gets to play. In that context, this country tends to follow examples from the Anglo-American space in popular media and in our politics because of our broadly monolingual culture and our historic ties through emigration, history and linguistic culture to the United Kingdom and the United States. However, if we want to do things we say we want to, such as be smarter, greener and more sustainable in our future economic and social policies, we could find some good and useful examples among partner states in the European Union. We have a chronic absence of curiosity about how other states work and function. I suggest that if we look at the data, whether for competitiveness, information technology indices, carbon emissions per head, renewables as a percentage of final energy consumption or energy imports as a percentage of total energy consumption, we come out pretty bad in many of these areas in comparison with Europe's best. We find a comfort zone of complacency when we compare ourselves against European averages.

Let me give an example. The poorest region of the 300-plus regions within the European Union today has an income per capita approaching 30% of EU GDP. The richest region, which is the greater London south east, in the United Kingdom, has an income per capita of 330%. If we give an average, that kind of diversity means the average is meaningless, because it is between very poor and very rich. Therefore, we need to start measuring and benchmarking ourselves against appropriate performers. I would argue that when we look at the EU 27, the appropriate performers - I can submit a paper on this with details and tables if required - are six other states, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. These are relatively small, with different characteristics state by state. They are small open economies and on these things we want to be - greener, smarter and more sustainable - there is much we could learn from them.

Without getting lost in a long statistical discourse - I have the data - if one compares us across a number of meaningful contemporary comparisons against that peer group within the European Union, I regret to observe that we are the worst or second worst performer in virtually every relevant criterion one could pick. If we want to shift the gear from the rhetoric of being world class to outcomes that move us towards that, we need to be aware that we have really good, solid working examples and we need to overcome our chronic absence of curiosity about some of our smaller, but very successful, European neighbours. I urge this committee, with its European vocation, to consider a benchmarking exercise. One is not naive to suppose that what happens with the legacy effect in one society is automatically transmissible to another society or economy, but nor should one be naive by being happy or complacent that we are better than the European Union averages, when the averages are so diverse as to be meaningless. If this country wants to be among the best, let us measure against the best and measure our performance against that.

I will conclude with a number of remarks. One of the important elements in the Lisbon treaty is the introduction of a citizens' initiative. The legal framework for that is now being negotiated and dealt with through the Brussels-based European institutions. It is important that someone, in parliamentary terms, would take supervisory ownership of that in Ireland. This is an important initiative and it is one for citizens, but who will be the watchdog to voice any Irish concerns and, when there is an Irish system, bringing forward the debate on that? The committee is well placed to do that by virtue of the work it does.

On the question of following through, when one decides, in an eight-week period, to issue a reasoned opinion and say one has anxieties about proportionality or subsidiarity, I suggest the committee considers the appointment of a political rapporteur on its behalf to follow that issue and charge it with dealing with the equivalents who are dealing with that in the secretariat in the European Council of Ministers and to deal with the rapporteur in the European Parliament. If it is an issue of some moment in the politics of this House, the committee should invite the rapporteur of the European Parliament to present and answer questions here.

The fact that one gives a reasoned opinion and things may still proceed does not mean one should not be interested. In the protocol on national parliaments attached to the treaty, the committee, as parliamentarians, has the right through the member state to bring an action to the European Court of Justice if it believes something offends, or continues to offend, subsidiarity and proportionality. I suspect the full elaboration of what those terms actually mean in practical politics will eventually be elaborated through contested cases and jurisprudence emerging from the European Court of Justice.

My final point concerns the Passerelle clauses which have been mentioned, and the movement from qualified majority to unanimity and so on. As the committee is aware, the institutions in Brussels which would contemplate such moves are obliged to give member states six months' notice. As the committee is also aware - this is by no means a trivial power - national parliaments have the ability in treaty law to say "Yea" or "Nay". If a national parliament says "No", under some but not all of these provisions a member state has the right to stop it in its tracks. Therefore, one has the right of very considerable engagement.

Those in Ireland who, through the Lisbon treaty debate, argued that this was giving everything away and that there was a kind of automaticity are simply wrong. There are procedures, checks and balances and the committee will be in the front line of those checks and balances. Therefore, it is the guarantor to the Irish electorate which overwhelmingly supported the Lisbon treaty on its second outing, of the integrity of that system in terms of the rights it can exercise through the House on our collective behalf.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting and contribute to its deliberations on the interim arrangements and the future role of the Oireachtas. I am conscious that we have a very short period of time in which to make our respective contributions; I will try to abide by that. I am in the fortunate position that I am speaking following two presentations which have more than adequately covered practically the whole of the agenda. Dr. Barrett and Mr. Cox said nothing with which I would disagree.

I want to focus on the future role of the Oireachtas in the context of Ireland's engagement in the European Union. I am grateful to Dr. Barrett for reminding me of a phrase which I had forgotten. The national parliaments had become a sort of chamber of the European Union. It is a very helpful starting point because we had the Council, which encompasses the governments, the European Parliament, which encompasses the electorates of Europe, and now have the virtual joining together of the national parliaments and a third chairman with a very particular and specific role.

As Mr. Cox has said, we know the involvement of the national Parliament in the pre-legislative and post-legislative phase and the fact that the whole legislative process has now been covered. With that in mind, I want to focus very briefly on four issues. The first is Ireland's strategic positioning inside the European Union. The second is the positive engagement of Ireland with European affairs. The third is the establishment of some policy priorities which we might pursue. The last is the whole role of oversight.

As Mr. Cox said, the strategic positioning of Ireland inside the European Union is more important than it appears at first sight. I have previously used the expression "psychological insiders and psychological outsiders". We have a choice of being a psychological insider within the process or an outsider. The choice was made back in 1973 that we would be a psychological insider. The distinction of that is that one's initial posture to whatever is happening is that one will support it if it fulfils whatever qualifications one has - one always has some - and if they were done one might arrive at a positive decision on the matter.

There is a contrast between Ireland and Denmark. The Danes remain psychological outsiders after four decades whereas we have been, until quite recently, very positive insiders. The paradox is that the more one is psychologically inside a process and is perceived to be such by other member states, the greater one's capacity to defend one's national interests, because the great problem is to avoid being irrelevant and not being listened to. As there are 27 member states, that is a particularly tough challenge.

We have a lot of interests which can be protected in areas which do not appear to be dramatically interesting, such as the evolution of technical standards in the context of a Single Market, which are of critical importance for foreign direct investment here. By being a psychological insider, we have established a very important track record in being able to get our point of view across, in having it accepted and building the sort of coalitions to which Mr. Cox referred.

I will offer two dramatic examples of what I mean my being a psychological insider. The then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, decided in 1979 to commit this country to membership of the European exchange rate mechanism, followed by the then Taoiseach Garret Fitzgerald's decision at the Milan European Council in 1985 to vote in favour of holding an IGC. More recently, the Minister, Deputy Martin, was commended in Berlin by his counterparts because of Ireland's Presidency under Charles Haughey when the question of German reunification arose, during which Ireland hosted a special meeting of the European Council.

These are very important decisions in respect of moving the whole project ahead and did not seem to contain anything of particular national interest from our point of view. However, it positioned us inside the system to the point that, when it was required, we could then draw down a great deal of the capital which we had established, such as the actions of the then Taoiseach Albert Reynolds following the first tranche of the cohesion funds, when this country did spectacularly well. The decision to join economic and monetary union under the Maastricht treaty and not seek an opt-out, as sought by Denmark, the United Kingdom and, more recently, Sweden, must also be considered.

There has been an accumulation of decisions that appear to be independent but which, if taken as a whole, begin to suggest a trend. This is the sort of analysis the committee might engage in and in respect of which it might subject the Government to scrutiny and questioning on occasion. I refer to the 1987 decision on Common Foreign and Security Policy, which is ultimately related to common defence, the decision a decade later not to become part of the Schengen agreement, and the decision a decade later again to have a number of opt-outs in the area of freedom, security and justice. It is interesting the decisions were made in the seventh year of each decade. If one considers the three decisions together, one begins to get a tinge of an outsider, of a state that is not signed up to the full agenda and which has certain qualifications and reservations. That needs to be analysed carefully because I suspect a very big decision will have to be made on fiscal federalism. It is perfectly obvious that the crisis in Greece has simply underscored the governance weaknesses in the eurozone that everybody knew about. However, it is a question of the methodology used by the Union to deal with crises as they arise, strengthen existing procedures or create new procedures or institutions.

While fiscal federalism has for a long time been a topic for discussion, sometimes academic discussion, it is now becoming extremely relevant. What is happening today in Greece could easily happen elsewhere. Dr. Barrett's opening remarks on regulation are greatly underscored because clearly one member of the experiment in economic and monetary union got in not so much under false pretences but through the presentation of a particular form of reality that might not be accepted by everybody.

Fiscal federalism raises a big issue for us because of the question of taxation. This is an area in which the Oireachtas should exercise very special responsibility in order to develop informed opinion on the choices made by the Government and to analyse the effect of one decision on our overall strategic positioning in the Union as a whole.

There will always be trade-offs. Each one involves some pain but it is hoped the gain is greater. We must have an informed debate on balancing both pain and gain. We will perhaps be confronted by this dilemma after Thursday if a certain decision is made by the British electorate on the Government it wishes to see in office for the next five or six years. The decision could lead to very serious choices being put on our agenda. We know the position of one of the UK political parties. In the Institute of International and European Affairs, we are about to initiate a project on Ireland in Europe for precisely the reasons I have outlined. We will be examining the implications of the arrival of the Conservative Government.

With regard to the issue of positive engagement, there is no need for me to repeat too emphatically what has been said; suffice it to say the situation has become vastly more complicated over 40 years. We had two policy areas when we joined, the Common Agricultural Policy and regional funds. We had two big interlocutors, Bonn and Paris, and we very cleverly and immediately understood the role of the Commission. We must now ask who our strategic partners are, the policy priorities we are pursuing, how all 26 member states can relate to each other, and how we handle a European Parliament that has become a co-legislator and which is organised on a very complex basis in terms of the committees. We must have a special procedure to deal with our national Ministers, MEPs, the Commission and permanent representation in Brussels.

There are different views on how Ministers should be brought before this committee or other committees of the Oireachtas. I argue very strongly that, one way or another, every Minister who has attended a meeting of the Council of Ministers should be required to give an account orally thereof before a committee. I do not believe in written reports because they are primarily drafted by civil servants rather than politicians. For the sake of accountability, Ministers should be invited here in turn. The same applies to the Commission.

Ireland's priorities should fall into two categories, the first of which should include those affecting or endangering the future functioning of the Union as a whole. At present, there is the question of the financial system, the euro, the future financial perspectives, climate change, immigration and the continuing problem of enlargement. The second category should include priorities that affect us particularly as a nation, such as priorities pertaining to the Common Agriculture Policy and the Single Market.

There is no need for me to repeat what Dr. Barrett and Mr. Cox have said on oversight. If the oversight function is not disposed of properly, the charge can legitimately be made that there is a democratic deficit in the European Union, hence the need to consider subsidiarity, proportionality and conferral and to end, once and for all, the myth of there being a democratic deficit.

I commend the sub-committee on its work. I very much hope to be associated with its continuing research. On behalf of the institute, I make myself available to the sub-committee.

I thank all three delegates for their very interesting and challenging contributions.

I welcome the presentations. As usual with presentations to this committee, they were thought-provoking and of very considerable assistance. Presentations have informed our reports and the work we set out to do.

The delegates complemented one another very well. I am not sure whether they had an opportunity to discuss matters in advance. The two final speakers set out very clearly the challenges and opportunities Ireland faces in terms of working within the Union and they also outlined what we need to do immediately.

Dr. Barrett set out the challenges for us as parliamentarians in terms of the work we need to do so we can, as citizens' representatives, play an active and important role in dealing with the vast quantities of information and documentation that exist. I refer also to our role as a Parliament in holding the Executive to account for all the reasons outlined by the last two speakers.

Interestingly, the last two speakers have some experience of being Members of Parliament, both here and elsewhere. I would be interested in teasing out with them what we might do by way of establishing a structure to manage our workload efficiently, which is really the requirement of this committee. Mr. Cox and Dr. Barrett indicated the gap between the public's understanding of the European project and our role in Europe and referred to the question of whether there is an electoral benefit for a politician to engage actively with the detailed work set out by Dr. Barrett. Therein lies the dilemma in terms of time available to members of the committee and the type of structure that is to emerge ultimately from its work.

What resources should be set aside? I was taken by what Mr. Cox said about having access to rapporteurs from other committees and about considering the possibility of the European affairs section of the Department of Foreign Affairs working almost separately from the Executive. Could a bloc from within the Department be used to work to the benefit of the Parliament or would there be a conflict of interest because the Department is involved with the Executive? Should the Parliament seek to establish its own knowledge base or information base through its secretariat to provide research and analysis and to present to members of the various committees? Is there a necessity to establish a greater level of back-end capacity? We can draw parallels with what is happening in the financial world and consider how Mr. Elderfield has sought a near doubling of the staff in his office. Are we considering this level of empowerment of Parliament if we are to be effective? Are we going down the road of paying lip service to this subject?

At the beginning of a parliamentary session people have more time and there is active engagement by the membership. They scrutinise to the best of their ability but when they get to the halfway stage, they concentrate to a much greater extent on re-election, and the duties outlined by Dr. Barrett are put on the back burner. Do we need a permanent representative within the Oireachtas who is totally focused on managing the platform outlined by Dr. Barrett? I see the importance of this and because of the decisions we are taking we are ultimately moving towards potential difficulties similar to what is happening in the financial world if we do not scrutinise the decisions as they apply to the Parliament and consequently to the citizens. This is a roundabout way of asking if there is a necessity for a greater level of investment in research capabilities and back-end analysis.

I welcome the speakers and note their excellent contributions. They have great knowledge on European matters. Regarding Deputy Dooley's point on the follow-on to Dr. Barrett's contribution, the 2000 Act was amended by the 2009 Act. Is there a danger this will become very complicated? Does Dr. Barrett believe the Act has been used to its full potential? The Parliament can come up with ideas but it may fail to implement the legislation. That has been a problem in the past. We have enacted a large amount of legislation but when it comes to transposition and implementation of detailed legislation, it is not carried through.

I refer to the point made by Dr. Barrett about White Papers and Green Papers. The Joint Committee on European Affairs deals with White Papers and Green Papers and the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny deals with up to 500 items of legislation that are transposed after leaving the Commission. In light of the Lisbon treaty, documentation comes into the Oireachtas simultaneously, which is very important. Since we joined in 1973 we have had up to 400 items of legislation between statutory instruments, draft legislation and Green Papers. Some 98% of all EU documentation has been transposed into Irish law.

One of the difficulties with the Lisbon treaty was the major disconnect. From the point of view of Mr. Cox, the reason for the disconnect is that the role of the Parliament is secondary in the perception of the public and these statutory instruments were transposed without debate and signed into law by the Minister. Dr. Barrett's point is that there should be regulation so that these are debated and circulated to every Member of the Oireachtas. I refer to Dr. Barrett's point about the control by the Minister. I have examined the systems in the UK and Denmark. We can consider the scrutiny reserve system and ministerial accountability. This must be welcomed if we are talking about the public expectation in respect of the third chamber referred to by Mr. Halligan. The 2009 Act is transposed in legislation on an interim basis and this committee is very important because it will examine the long-term policy of the Oireachtas. The Act provides for a green card, a yellow card and an eight-week timeframe. A rapporteur can be appointed to observe the documentation.

I refer to subsidiarity and proportionality with regard to the control of that issue. Responsibility for justice and home affairs lies entirely with the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. The Joint Committee on European Affairs and the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny have the role of dealing with the 14 other Departments. When examining Eurojust and Europol, having attended a number of COSAC meetings on the remit and control over massive drug trafficking, the level of control within the Oireachtas and the resources directed towards the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights are totally inadequate. One must consider the massive responsibility of every aspect of drug trafficking within the 27 member states. We have failed to deal with this.

We must consider the role of national parliaments. There is very little appetite for this. I chair the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny and I find getting commitments to have the subject debated in the Oireachtas is extraordinarily difficult. It appears not to be a topical issue and having controversial directives debated is difficult. Members of the Parliament have participated in debates on European scrutiny issues on a number of occasions but this is of no real substance.

Mr. Cox referred to integrating the subject in schools. A DVD was produced by the European Parliament office in Molesworth Street. There is no information kiosk in Dáil Eireann. Hundreds of students come to Dáil Éireann and it is astonishing that there is no kiosk. It would not cost a fortune to give out information to school children and senior citizens. Thousands of people come to Leinster House and no information is available in the Oireachtas. One imagines there should be DVDs on Europe and information on Europe available in the Parliament.

Specialised committees have raised the game here but if we send a report from the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny to sectoral committee for a report back, one invariably finds it is rubberstamped. While there are facilities within the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny and the Joint Committee on European Affairs, there are funding difficulties. I give the example of a report by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny about a directive on fisheries. This will be sent to the committee with responsibility for fisheries but will be sent back without any major due diligence on the document. That is the current difficulty.

Transposition of statutory instruments is a matter of great contention. There is little or no mechanism for the review of statutory instruments. There should be an examination of the interpretation of statutory instruments comparing different jurisdictions. Directives can be interpreted in different ways in different countries. Does Mr. Cox think Ireland is over-zealous in its approach to statutory instruments and their transposition? The European citizens' initiative, which is important, can act as a watchdog. Given the exhaustive debate here on the Lisbon treaty I have no doubt that in the future there will be an opportunity to return to the people of Ireland on Europe. While we can talk the talk, in that campaign people were justifiably cynical of the track record of the past 30 years of Ireland's integration. Even the involvement of local authorities is remiss not only in national parliaments but in the committee of county councillors from across Europe who meet in Brussels.

Mr. Halligan mentioned the role of MEPs. Unfortunately there is very little participation here by MEPs in holding the Government to account in the communications area at the European oversight committee. We have failed on several counts and we are doing the very minimum. I am delighted with the presentations. If only a fraction of what has been discussed came within the ambit of the new powers and role of the Oireachtas it would be beneficial. There is also the expectation that it be benchmarked. Not only should the European Parliament be benchmarked but the Oireachtas should be benchmarked on how it transposes its obligations to the Irish people on the integration of the national Parliament and the enhanced role of national parliaments which is what the Lisbon treaty was all about. It would be unwise to think that future governments could go off to Europe. Any comparison of the Danish, the House of Lords and the House of Commons systems of scrutiny with that of Ireland, and our attendance at COSAC meetings, shows we have failed dismally to date. If we are to move forward effectively, we need to hold the Executive to account and ensure the resources are available to critically analyse the 500 pieces of legislation coming from Europe and call in witnesses to explain the effect of their implementation in Irish law.

I remind members that as our witnesses are under time pressure, they should try to keep contributions brief and to stick to the line of questioning.

I was interested in what Mr. Halligan said at the end of his presentation about what he described as the myth of the democratic deficit. I realise we do not have the time to debate that issue at this meeting today because we want to deal with the methodology of what needs to be done, as opposed to the substance of the argument. Certainly there is a massive challenge to engage the Irish public at even a fairly minimal level in the crucial issues, debates and decisions being made on their behalf at European level. Deputy Perry is right in saying there has been a failure to do that. In my short time as a Member I have observed that there is no great appetite for these issues to be addressed in the Dáil, Seanad or committees. It is not that there is not goodwill but it comes back to the methodology. It just does not seem to be possible for us, as yet, to order our affairs in a way that will facilitate real debate, discussion and decision making on all of these issues.

I was struck by what I understood Dr. Barrett to say - I was a few minutes late for which I apologise - that in his experience, parliaments that have a history of being effective in the round in the general sense tend to be the parliaments that do best on this challenge as well. There is a logic to that. We are already having a debate, for better or worse, about the quality of our democratic institutions in this country in the general sense, the peculiar power of the Executive and so forth and the lack of Oireachtas scrutiny across the board, not just in respect of European affairs. If it is difficult to engage the Oireachtas in these crucial issues, how much more difficult is the challenge to engage the Irish public in these questions? That is the challenge we are facing.

The Chairman will want to get us around to speaking about the methodology of what the Parliament can do and how we can order our affairs to improve matters. On that score, I understood Dr. Barrett to say that he thought where these issues engaged the whole Parliament, in other words, the Parliament sitting in plenary session, they tend to be more effective than leaving it all to specialist committees. That is an interesting point but maybe I misinterpreted him. I would like to understand it a little more or what distinction he would draw between the whole Parliament dealing with an issue as opposed to committees doing so.

It strikes me on listening to this discussion today and last week that there is an agenda. As parliamentarians we all know that if there is a big block of information and, say, draft measures they tend to come in lists. They do not tend to come in themes or sub-themes but according to the chronology under which they are delivered in Brussels. We get a long list of measures in many different areas and one has to try to work out what has priority and the measures that have a somewhat lesser priority in order that one can put together an agenda that will work as one cannot discuss everything. Is there a way in which we can be more selective about the agenda in the Dáil, Seanad and committees rather than simply going through a list of measures almost like a telephone directory? They all appear on the pages as if they are of the same importance but of course they are not necessarily of the same importance. How can we devise a way of being more selective and drive the agenda ourselves rather than it being driven by the exigencies of what is happening in Brussels and when measures are produced and the format in which they are produced?

Somebody mentioned the European Parliament last week. I am interested in this idea of the third chamber notion which I have heard discussed previously. Should we shadow what the European Parliament does from a methodological point of view? If the European Parliament is dealing with issues this week, is that a signal to us that perhaps they are the issues we should think about having on our agenda? I am just talking about how we order the business rather than its substance. The advance nature of the scrutiny is the most important issue, as everybody has emphasised. It always struck me that there was relatively little debate about the content of the Lisbon treaty until it had to be debated and decided upon in Lisbon I, even among parliamentarians. The advance scrutiny is the important issue. I understood Mr. Michael McDowell to say here last week in regard to European arrest warrants - it was an extraordinary example - that he was Attorney General at the time and that there had been virtually no consultation with the relevant Irish agencies and Departments. That seems extraordinary. If consultation is to have meaning, it must take place before a decision is made, otherwise it is not consultation.

Everybody is using the phrase "raise our game". We could go around this committee and pressurise each member to give one example of how we could in reality raise our game on this issue. In anticipation of that, I ask the three guests, from the point of view of Oireachtas Members and the workings of the Oireachtas, if there is one example they might suggest that would be a genuine means of raising our game on these issues.

I welcome the guests. I agree with the point in regard to intervening before the legislation or directive is drafted. I can truthfully say as a Government backbencher that we have the same problem in regard to legislation and trying to intervene at parliamentary party level. The only game in town is early intervention as mentioned by all speakers. I agree with Mr. Halligan's suggestion that the Minister should appear before the committee after a Council meeting rather than just before he or she attends a Council meeting.

Dr. Barrett raised the issue of legislation and statutory instruments. He is right to say we do not spend enough time considering these instruments. I have often wondered why legislation or a statutory instrument is not quickly put in place to deal with a situation. For example, we had serious flooding in the country, particularly in the west of Ireland and in County Galway, and I wonder why legislation or a statutory instrument was not put in place to give the Office of Public Works a lead role in dealing with the situation, rather than leaving the semi-State agencies to look at each other and talk and wonder who would do the necessary work. The point I am making is it works both ways and we sometimes need statutory instruments to be put in place. It is clear that since the Lisbon treaty has been agreed by the people, we need this committee. As Deputy Perry said, hopefully we will have these issues debated in the Dáil and Seanad, but that is not always easy to arrange.

We often say that people do not have much information on the issues. The IFA has an office in Brussels and is, to its credit, very quick to tell us what is going on, or what it believes is going on, but it may not be easy for every organisation to do that. I meet officials from the IFA regularly and met some this weekend who are very annoyed about the carbon tax, as are business people. When these kinds of issues arise and something like the carbon tax is introduced, the first question is always to ask what other countries do. We are asked how come the French do not introduce a carbon tax or how they are dealing with the issue or how it is that the French can give state aid to agriculture when we cannot do so. These are the kinds of practical issues that arise.

To return to the issue of the flooding, I am aware that Deputy Dooley and his committee sought help from Europe and we were all disappointed when there was no help from it for Irish people in difficulty. We had to tell people that they would need X million euro worth of damage and so many hectares to be covered in water before they could get assistance. Dealing with conditions for receiving European aid is like talking to an insurance broker who points out one needs to read the small print to know why one is not getting help. This is somewhat disappointing.

Mr. Cox said that we need a rapporteur to keep us in touch. To give credit to our MEPs, they have brought people over to Europe to the petitions committee and have been involved in issues such as odours from factories, cattle not thriving because of industry and road safety. They have brought those issues to the floor of the European Parliament, to the petitions committee and to all the other committees about which Mr. Cox spoke. That is to their credit.

I have always wondered about the country markets. Every day on television we see marvellous cookery programmes where, for example, somebody is cooking in France and getting their raw materials from the market. If people want to have a country market here, they are told it will not work because they must comply with health regulations and HSE and various inspections before a market can open. However, it seems to work in other countries. I would like to hear a response on that.

On the issue of Greece, we will show solidarity and help out, but people are concerned about how we will get our money back. This issue gives rise to questions on further enlargement. The Chairman may have different views to me on enlargement, but that debate is for another time. Some people say one country should be admitted to membership, but another should not, etc., but the issue will give rise to more debate now, particularly as related to Greece and other countries, such as Ireland, which have been in a difficult situation. The solidarity that has existed in Europe will be tested, particularly when some countries make their applications. We will need more discussion on enlargement.

I am positive about our engagement with Europe so far and am not as disappointed as some of those who have commented in the media There is information available and MEPs and some organisations in Europe are playing a role. They should be able to continue that role and, hopefully, provide even more information about what is going on.

I only came in to get a flavour of the debate and had not realised the path had been made smooth for my participation. I apologise, therefore, that I was not present to hear the presentations of our three esteemed guests. I am enthusiastic about this committee. The Lisbon treaty has presented a great challenge to the parliamentary system generally to make good on the commitments we made when proposing a "Yes" vote that greater participation, democracy and subsidiarity would be the result of the passing of the treaty. There was a vigorous "No" campaign run in my area, but it did not gain traction. However, I feel particular pressure to make good on the promises we made when campaigning for Lisbon. We must meet the challenge here in terms of scrutinising the legislation. I agree with Senator White that there seems to be a blizzard of information at times, which is difficult to deal with when one feels overwhelmed by it. Therefore, we must find a way to prioritise issues or thematically approach the legislation in order to grapple better with it.

I had to fight the Lisbon treaty four times because my party had an internal vote on it. Being mildly eurosceptic - not in a Conservative-UKIP sense - but in a different way, the enlargement process is what brought home to me, in historical terms, how important the European Union is. Recognising the true boundaries of Europe and the integration of Europe that was so devastated by the Second World War was an eye-opener for me. I have been an enthusiastic supporter of Europe ever since that enlargement process. I have made this point many times within my party as well as during the campaign. I am delighted to be here and look forward to making a contribution and meeting the challenges we have put to ourselves.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

I thank members for their interesting questions. I will go through them as quickly as I can. Deputy Dooley mentioned the publicity problem. This is a major problem, but we hope that if the system is reformed in such a way so that the committee does more worthwhile work in the sense of getting things done, the media interest will follow. One must probably play the media game as well to some extent. For example, designating rapporteurs was mentioned. That would be a good idea and would give Members an incentive as they would get their names on a report. The issuance of press releases and the circulation of the reports by e-mail to those who might be interested in them would also be worthwhile. To some extent, lessons could be learned from the European Parliament which operates its publicity machine quite effectively in that regard.

Both Deputies Dooley and Perry asked whether the committee needs resources and greater investment in research and analysis. The answer is an emphatic "Yes". I do not think it can rely on the Executive to provide it with information. The committee needs to do independent research. I agree with what the former Deputy, Michael McDowell, had to say last week in this regard. Executive resources can be useful, and one should use whatever information one can get, but one should not confine oneself to that. I have no doubt but that the committee needs more research staff. However, it can call in MEPs on specific issues, it can use the IPEX system, COSAC and the Oireachtas EU liaison office, which already provides valuable reports. Therefore, there are resources already available, but they need to be beefed up and the committee also needs its own resources.

Deputy Perry asked whether we need legislative reform and whether, for example, the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002, as amended, is sufficient and whether we use it enough. The Act alone is not enough as it has no teeth. Under section 2(2) of the Act, Ministers are obliged only to have "regard" to recommendations, which we all know in practice means they can ignore them if they want. Therefore, Ireland needs some kind of teeth to be inserted into the process. There are two ways of doing that, either by way of a mandate system or a scrutiny reserve system. The Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union seems to feel that a scrutiny reserve system would suffice in that regard. However, we need one or the other. It could be argued that enough use is not being made of the Act. The Deputy mentioned the problem of other committees not applying due diligence in regard to some of the reports. More use could have been made in that regard.

One factor Mr. Halligan mentioned is very important, which I accidentally left out of my contribution. A vital element is that the circle needs to be closed. If Ministers come in here before a Council meeting we need to get them in after it to know what they have done with whatever was being discussed in advance.

A Deputy mentioned that there is very little appetite for debate on the part of Oireachtas Members. The context is vital in this regard and it is true that the most effective parliaments in European affairs are the most effective parliaments generally. We cannot divorce ourselves from the broader need for reform. The electoral system needs to be reformed. We have one which promotes localised interests at the expense of national interests. There are limits to what can be done in the context of this committee and on European affairs on its own. The fact that one cannot do everything is not an excuse for doing nothing. It is as good a place as any to start with some reform.

I am not victimising any committee, but the fisheries committee was mentioned as an example of one which does not apply due diligence. Perhaps making such committees feel it was worth their while to do something would help. Obliging Ministers to appear before the relevant sectoral committees and to return after the relevant meeting and having a scrutiny reserve system would make a big difference.

Senator White raised some issues, which there is a not a huge appetite to address. On engaging the whole Parliament, I apologise if I gave the impression that I think these matters should be delegated to the Parliament as a whole because I do not. I meant the Oireachtas should be Europeanised generally, but that can be done via the broader use of committees and interaction between them. That would be the central means of doing it. There is also a role for plenary sessions of the Parliament, but that would be a lesser role. The real way one Europeanises the Parliament is by getting the other committees involved. There is plenty of scope in doing that because making individual Ministers accountable is far too much work for one or two committees. All of the committees need to be engaged in doing that.

Senators also mentioned ways to be more selective with documents. There are various ways in which one needs to do that. It comes back to the issue of resources. One needs to have the staff in place to sort out what is and is not relevant. One needs to develop an independent resource committee. We can learn from other parliaments. The Chambre des Députés du Grand-Duché de Luxembourg divides documents into an A and B list. The A list ones are those which are not worth examining because it is too late or the document is too insignificant, and so on. We can learn from other parliaments in that regard. I recognise it is a major challenge and a system needs to be developed to deal with that.

The committee could learn from the European Parliament, which it mentioned as an issue. The use of the rapporteur system is something which can be done - it gets publicity. The means used by the publicity machine of the European Parliament to get publicity is also very important and we can learn from it.

I heard what former Minister Michael McDowell said about the European arrest warrant. It was untypical. It was introduced very fast. There was not sufficient consultation on it but it does not happen on a regular basis. Normally, if one has one's ear to the ground one will know what proposals are coming forward and if one gets in early one can have influence in the pre-legislative phase.

I was asked for specific suggestions on how one raises one's game. If I was to nail down four issues on how to do that, I would suggest getting a scrutiny reserve system, close the circle, involve other committees in what one is doing and get the secondary legislation system right. If the committee could get those four things done it would make a major contribution to democracy.

Deputy Kitt referred to the need for balance on statutory instruments. I suggested a form of ex ante breaking mechanism as regards statutory instruments which raise particular political issues. If they were urgently needed, the committee would not get Deputies raising problems. There is a broader issue, namely, inconvenience. Any scrutiny or oversight mechanism involves more inconvenience for the Executive. It slows down what it wants to do but there is a balance to be achieved and we have the balance wrong. There is too much Executive convenience at the moment and not enough oversight and scrutiny. If this committee can develop proposals to address that it would do democracy here a great service.

Mr. Pat Cox

I thank the Deputies and Senators for their comments and responses. On the resource question, I do not have intimate familiarity with the resource level of the committee, therefore commenting in a specific way is difficult. The integrity of parliamentary systems requires some level of independent research as a resource independent of the Executive without having to exclude the ability to draw down wisdom and learning from sources in public service departments and which are available to the Executive. One needs some arms-length equality to that.

In the current financial circumstances, resources and their availability are constrained. To pick up Senator White's challenge about specifics, taking European work and spreading it to relevant committees makes some sense. It is also very important to confront the silo logic of who does it, deciding on the specialist committee and sending the work to it. It closes a loop. That is not good enough. If we are to Europeanise something, it needs wider ownership. If people decide this committee or the Joint Committee on European Affairs is the basket into which everything European is poured, that should be resisted, not because the committee does not want to do its work but because it turns it into a silo which becomes a European dustbin into which everything is dumped and it is disconnected from the rest of the system.

Another element in which there is an enormous resource and goodwill towards this committee and others is the vast reservoir of civil society in Ireland. By that I mean all the professional associations and bodies, Engineers Ireland, accountants or whatever. There is a great reservoir, including the universities, research bodies and so on. People are pleased and prepared to respond to an invitation from their political leadership and from a sense of openness and access to committees like this and other committees to make a contribution. It is a hugely under-utilised resource and in a an era of resource constraint I highly commend it to the committee. Outreach is much easier in the Internet age once one gets a few lists and information systems together than it was in the past. It is a vastly under-utilised resource in respect of European Union-related work.

On Deputy Perry's remarks, while one cannot do everything, as was mentioned by several contributors this morning, one needs to be able to make political priorities. A key political role of a committee like this and other committees in the House, if they are Europeanised in the manner in which we have discussed, is to convey to the Irish electorate the sense that we have sovereign integrity as policy makers. The problem with accepting that a list of stuff flows in from Brussels which goes into a machine and comes out as a statutory instrument, without much scrutiny during the process, is a sense of passivity and policy taking which creates in the minds of people a sense that we are not players, or that it is all happening on planet Europe while we live on planet Earth, so how do we make the connection?

To get over the dichotomy between planet Europe and planet Earth, the sense of taking ownership of policy making is important and requires a sense of prioritisation which requires some people in politics to do a horizon scan of those kinds of lists, assisted by researchers. The suggestion of following the work of the European Parliament committees has some benefits but also some drawbacks. The Parliament has from 18 to 20 standing committees and, occasionally, special committees. The legislative procedure on co-legislation involves two readings plus conciliation. There is a mountain of lists and procedures.

It is useful to find out the hot topic of committees. For politicians everywhere, the hotspots are rarely very different. The committee secretariats are a great resource and some of them are chaired by Irish staff who are officials of the European Parliament. They can network with the committee leadership. The secretariats are an unexploited resource that could be followed up. If members want names of staff, I could supply them privately.

Several members asked whether we are over-zealous. It depends on the case. To give an example, when I was travelling the country intensively during the Lisbon treaty campaign, I was struck by the fact that, under the same EU regulation, farmers in the south were not allowed to spread slurry on given days for the good environmental reason of not contaminating watercourses while farmers in Fermanagh, which is on the same island but in a different jurisdiction, were allowed do so. The instrument in the North is more subtle and stipulates that if there are consecutive dry days expected, spreading slurry is allowed. It is the dry day rather than the week or month that matters. Typically August is dry but last year we experienced the wettest August in our history. Subtleties do matter and really annoy the hell out of people. The issue that arose last year over slurry was about finessing the detail of the rule. It does matter and such issues clearly need attention.

Consider the difference between scrutiny reserve systems and mandate systems. Scrutiny reserve represents an improvement over what is in place at present. I have been privileged to have been in attendance at all the European affairs committees in each parliament in the Union and each parliament in every actual or likely accession state. Those states that operate the mandate system have very impressive systems. They are mainly, but not exclusively, Scandinavian. Ministers do not take lightly coming to a committee and contracting their margin of manoeuvre for Council debates. This matters in that if there is executive accountability, it should start as the journey starts and not later in the process. From what I have seen in committees, I am in favour of the mandate system.

An interesting research project could involve a study of the attendance rate of Irish Ministers at Council meetings. One would be surprised to discover how often we are represented by civil servants or diplomats at Council meetings. If one is serious about the politicisation and Europeanisation of being a policy-maker, and not just a policy-taker, that level of performance is probably worth examining and benchmarking.

Deputy Kitt raised the carbon tax issue. There is no universal EU carbon tax. I do not need to explain at an Oireachtas committee our sensitivities about national sovereignty over taxation.

With regard to benchmarking, one country that does better at all the green and sustainable practices we do or aspire to in our public policy is Denmark. It introduced a carbon tax between the mid-1990s and late 1990s and, as first mover, has not suffered a competitive handicap. The World Economic Forum data on global competitiveness last year had Ireland the worst of the peer group countries that I mentioned. Denmark was in the top ten and has been consistently so. We used to be in this position until we blew it in the course of the past decade.

Not unlike anyone else who has had to deal with politics outside urban Ireland, I have had frequent contact with the IFA and its various committees, local and national. With regard to resources, the IFA, given its fund-raising capacity through its own membership base and the levy system, is one of the most richly financed institutions within the State, given the class of work it does. Its annual income, which is spent on quality research, backup and lobbying, is greater than the sum of the revenues of all the Irish political parties added together. That tells one that one gets what one pays for, and if one pays peanuts one knows what to expect.

I hope that is not a reflection on the Irish political parties.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

I would not want the message to go out that I am more in favour of a scrutiny reserve system than a mandate system. At the Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union, I very strongly advocated the latter. If a choice were to be made between the two, I would most certainly opt for the mandate system.

A number of us around the table were party to that committee and are well aware of Dr. Barrett's views. They are duly noted.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I am in the happy position that my two colleagues have said much of what I want to say. I will, therefore, focus on only three points. The question of resources arose immediately. When the institute published its analysis of the Lisbon treaty, it concluded the resources of the State would have to be beefed up vastly if it were to do its job properly. That goes without question. This also applies to specialist advice, as raised by Deputy Perry.

Deputy Kitt and others referred to the use of statutory instruments. From my experience of statutory instruments as a Member of the Oireachtas – I do not know whether circumstances have changed greatly – they were laid before the House and could be annulled within 21 sitting days on foot of a motion. I never discovered a statutory instrument being debated, never mind being annulled. This is a very serious point, particularly in light of Mr. Cox's points on how one nuances the transposition of legislation. The latter anaesthetises the Dáil and Seanad in that they are not involved at all by virtue of there being no debate. Dr. Barrett pointed out that having a debate on a draft statutory instrument, or considering it in another way, would be a very important innovation. One can draw one's own conclusions from the transposition of directives by way of statutory instrument given a lack of resources.

I was a Member of both Houses and, like Mr. Cox, a Member of the European Parliament. I have also been the general secretary of a party. Deputy Perry is correct that there is no appetite for European affairs in general. A great stimulus for dealing with our national Parliament differently would be requiring Ministers to attend committees to report on Council meetings.

Senator Alex White referred to methodology. A very complicated methodology is required for a very complicated process. We cannot have a simplistic solution to what is complicated. Everyone knows that one of the critical phases is the pre-legislative phase. There should be a requirement for a Minister to come before the sectoral committee and say how the Government will react to the agenda of the upcoming Council meeting. I do not mind if we use the Danish or some other system. However, let us not forget that the Danish system puts a straitjacket on the Government. I do not agree with that.

Mr. Pat Cox

The neighbouring Finnish system achieves accountability but not from the perspective of being an outsider.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

Exactly. It is worthwhile examining the Finnish system, which is sophisticated. Civil servants will forgive me for the following point. That system liberates the Minister from the straitjacket he is frequently put into by official advice. I refer to Dr. Barrett's point about closing the circle. The Minister should be required to come back and report on why the Irish State took a particular position. Whether the Minister reports to the sectoral committee or this committee is a matter for debate. However great the workload, there is merit in having one committee with a cohesive and coherent overview of what we are doing. It can sift out what management science calls sub-optimal positions taken by various Ministers. That is quite possible in a silo-organised system, which we currently have. I referred earlier to the decisions made on three major issues, each of which was optimal from the point of view of the Department but sub-optimal from the point of view of Ireland. There is no greater discipline than having to come before one's peers. Nothing so concentrates the mind wonderfully as the thought of hanging, as Samuel Johnson said. Being forced to account at first hand, and not just producing a paper written by officials, is difficult. It might be helpful if Ministers showed the same enthusiasm for reporting to respective parliamentary parties, which is not always a feature of our system.

Mr. Cox referred to MEPs. I favour the proposal to have shadow rapporteurs. The great difficulty about being an MEP, as Mr. Cox will recall, is that they are not possessed of the power of bilocation. We now have video conferencing and there is no reason we cannot use it to have briefings from Brussels with MEPs, officials and the rafts of people to whom Mr. Cox referred. This committee might make it a special responsibility to liaise with the Presidency of the Commission and the Secretariat-General as distinct from the sectoral committees having a special relationship with different Directorates-General.

Regarding Senator White's challenge to up the game - which was the phrase used by Mr. Cox - I have four proposals. I thank the Senator for making us think. The first proposal lies well outside the terms of reference of this committee. We cannot change the electoral system but it is a major inhibitor of the evolution of a proper committee system that works. That is a bigger debate. However, we could have a committee week every month where neither House sits in plenary session but Members sit on committees. There are difficulties with attendance and so on. The feature of the parliamentary systems elsewhere is a devotion to committees and a specific period of time in which nothing else takes place. Deputies and Senators do not have the power of bilocation. Deputies and Senators come in and out of all committees and make apologies to whoever.

Reference was made to the IFA and IBEC. It is interesting that we have permanent representation by the State in Brussels through the Department of Foreign Affairs, which is headed by an ambassador and a deputy ambassador, and the IFA, IBEC, ICOS and Chambers Ireland have offices there also. Why not put a permanent representative of this Parliament in Brussels? The representative could present an independent angle on what is happening, as has been stressed by me and my colleagues. The individual could be housed in the permanent representation and would hopefully not be too greatly influenced. This person could take a parliamentary view of what is happening and create and sustain networks to which Mr. Cox so eloquently referred.

As a challenge, this committee could debate and decide on a key proposal that it will pursue for the following year. That would be an interesting debate in deciding on it and then progressing the issue over the course of the year. I suggest this committee should present an annual report on what has been happening and provide analysis, independent of biannual reports of the Department of Foreign Affairs. This could be a different eye on what is happening. I thank members for attending.

I thank each of our witnesses. We continued longer than anticipated but this was a useful meeting. The committee is committed to reviewing interim mechanisms and finding the appropriate mechanism for our parliamentary system that suits and fits the system we have. Hopefully, it will improve the system. Many of the suggestions and contributions offered will feed into the process in a constructive fashion. The members were enraptured and attentive to the points made.

The sub-committee went into private session at 12.10 p.m. and adjourned at 12.15 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 May 2010.
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