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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 May 2010

Sovereign Debt Crisis: Discussion with Dan O’Brien

I welcome Mr. Dan O'Brien, senior Europe editor, Economist Intelligence Unit. The debt crisis is very topical and members will agree that it has engaged the minds of everybody across the eurozone in the past number of weeks. We have discussed it on several occasions and it is important that we examine all aspects of the crisis, in particular the measures to stabilise the economies in the eurozone.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Regarding the privilege enjoyed by people appearing before a committee, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The usual procedure is that the witness makes an opening address which is followed by questions and answers and a closing response. I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his presentation.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I thank the Chairman for his invitation to address the joint committee. It is a privilege and an honour to be asked to speak to members. The European Union is the most successful mechanism that has ever been devised to boost co-operation between states. The most ambitious part of that mechanism has been the creation of the euro more than ten years ago. The question is whether the euro is now a strain on that mechanism and could actually do damage to it. For the first time in the history of European integration there is a question as to whether there could be a significant reversal in the process of integration, in other words, whether the euro can survive. These are unprecedented times and disaster is certainly not inevitable but at the same time nothing can be ruled out. It is very difficult to predict the future given how uncertain and unprecedented things are. On that basis I will give five reasons to be hopeful and four reasons to be very concerned. I will finish by looking at a worse case and a best case scenario.

I will begin by looking at the reasons for hope. First, the real economy in the world suffered a massive shock owing to the failure of the financial system but there are real signs all over the world that the non-finance economy is recovering. It is a fragile recovery and is subject to multiple risks but there are signs everywhere of the durability of producers, services providers and labour markets. If the recovery in the real economy can continue, it will make the process of dealing with the euro crisis much easier. Second, the package agreed 15 days ago is enormous, big enough to allow the next three weakest countries, Portugal, Ireland and Spain to obtain the same kind of bailout obtained by Greece. This is a significant and unprecedented package of measures agreed by the leaders of the euro area. It affords the weaker countries breathing space that gives them a chance to get out of the situation. Third, the argument that extreme fiscal tightening leads to a downward cycle that is inevitably self-defeating has been challenged by some of the evidence to date from Ireland and Latvia which suggests that it is not inevitable and that it can work. Over the past year both Ireland and Latvia have introduced measures that previously would have been considered inconceivable in terms of the contractionary effect on their economies. Both of the economies are now showing signs of bottoming out and returning to growth in spite of the fiscal contraction. That offers hope to those countries which are embarking on that very painful process. Fourth, the political effect of the crisis across Europe has been much less than most people who think about political dynamics would have considered. In my organisation, at the beginning of the crisis in late 2008, we thought a great deal about depression-era scenarios of the centre ground collapsing and a move to the extremes of the populist right and the extreme left. That has not happened in Europe. Political stability has been remarkable given the extent of the economic shock, the greatest shock in living memory since the first half of the 20th century.

The fifth reason is Germany, which is a key player. It has not covered itself in glory in dealing with this crisis but, given its size, its importance and its relative fiscal solidity, it is essential Germany remains behind the measures being taken. The opposition to this among the German public is extremely deep and there are many historical reasons for that. Despite that, the five parties in the Bundestag understand this is absolutely necessary and fully support it even though individuals oppose it. They also understand the costs of not doing it would be considerably greater than the cost of doing it. It is difficult to conceive of one or more of the parties in Germany peeling away from this consensus and taking considerable electoral advantage by opposing the bailout. These are five reasons to hope the course embarked upon can lead Europe out the other side without the crisis deepening substantially.

There are four reasons to be concerned. The first is the extreme fragility of the financial system. The collapse of the financial system in 2008 was like a large building being struck by an earthquake. Governments have buttressed the structures through various support measures to prevent the collapse. All those buttresses are still in place and without them we would go straight back to meltdown. Even with the supports, the mispricing of risk by the financial system in a range of asset classes, including sovereign debt, is causing other problems repeatedly and that will not go away. The financial system still poses a threat to the real economy and its recovery.

The second reason to be concerned is that, despite its resilience and its return to growth, the real economy faces other risks. These are not only related to finance but to the extent to which the recovery has been driven by intervention — fiscal and monetary — and how this will be withdrawn. There are other problems in other areas of the world. China is contributing to an enormous degree to global demand and could be at risk of a bubble. A significant crisis in one of the major poles of growth will have knock-on effects for the rest of the world.

The third reason for concern is the capacity of European governments to agree to the redesign of the euro. The "no bailout" package position has been abandoned. It was the foundation upon which the project was built and that has been removed. Now we need a new foundation. From the time monetary union was suggested, many people argued that one cannot have currency union without a fiscal union. I am not sure that is the case, it may be. At a minimum there must be more intrusive mechanisms to ensure the kind of fiscal crises we have had are not repeated. At a minimum this requires a much more intrusive role in the fiscal budgeting policies of member states on the completely equal basis that all countries must face the same scrutiny. There are several ways this could be achieved but, given what we saw from 11 February until two weeks ago in an extraordinary period of indecision and dithering before a proportionate package was put in place, there is concern that Europeans will not be able to agree to the very minimum needed to replace the foundation taken out of the euro structure.

The fourth reason, which is more long-term, is the legitimacy of the European Union. Members of this committee will be familiar with the Eurobarometer polls that ask questions about public opinion and how Europeans feel about the European Union. The legitimacy of a crucial part of European governance is much lower than at a national level. For countries where public opinion is hostile to a bailout, this will have a major impact on the legitimacy of the European Union and support for it. Over the longer term, one must wonder if an entity with limited legitimacy can be a successful political entity.

With those reasons for hope and real concern, I will finish by looking at a worst case scenario and a best case scenario. The worst case scenario is the collapse of the euro, the disintegration of the project with many enormously negative consequences, including some that are unforeseeable. The best case scenario is an extended period of austerity, particularly for weaker countries, which weakens support for the EU in those countries. More positively, that kind of crisis can lead to a range of reforms in the structure of the euro to put the entity on a firmer footing. In weaker countries the crisis being suffered may trigger the kind of reforms — such as labour market reform in Spain and public sector reform in Greece — that are so difficult to push in normal times. I thank the committee members for their attention.

I welcome Mr. O'Brien. He has provided useful commentary and he does so an ongoing basis. I find his opinion balanced, insightful and helpful in understanding the crisis we face in Ireland from an economic perspective. His position as senior editor with the Economist Intelligence Unit, with a Europe wide remit, is particularly helpful in understanding the impact of the crisis we face in the European context. We have concentrated for far too long on the domestic problem and we failed to recognise, until we saw the street protests in Greece, that the issue had wider implications. Mr. O'Brien has clearly outlined some of the issues and concerns he has and those to which we need to react.

I want to drag Mr. O'Brien closer to home and invite him to comment. While I recognise that doctors differ and patients die and economists have different opinions at different times, professor Morgan Kelly of UCD is in the news for saying that it is not a matter of if but when the country goes bust. He set out his views on this and what he thinks policy should be in terms of default on bonds by our financial institutions, the removal of the guarantee as it exists and a range of other measures. I will not go into detail as I am sure Mr. O'Brien has read the article. What is his opinion on it?

We will bank the questions.

I welcome Mr. O'Brien. As Deputy Dooley said, I look forward to hearing Mr. O'Brien's views. What is the possibility of any country leaving the euro? I am thinking of Germany in particular. The possibility has been mooted. Mr. O'Brien touched on the political effect of the move to the extremes, which has not happened in the way it did in the 1930s. Can he pinpoint why this did not happen? I read an article in The Economist three weeks ago entitled “Coming to a city near you?” This would worry every citizen of Europe. Despite the success so far and the extent of the support, Mr. O’Brien refers to the risk of a bubble among his reasons to be concerned. Can he explain how the bubble might happen?

Mr. O'Brien also touched on the question of monetary versus fiscal union. Would the latter pose an immediate threat to our ability to set our own corporation tax? A great number of people believe our corporation tax rate was very much responsible for the benefits we gained in recent times.

Mr. O'Brien also spoke about the legitimacy of the Union and of how European citizens felt hostile. In spite of the fact that the European community began in 1957 and all 27 member states seem to be far better off than they were, why might we feel hostile to it? I would have thought that the vast majority of people would see it as having been good for them and for their neighbours.

I welcome Mr. O'Brien and thank him for his contribution. I do not think the scale of the challenge facing national governments in Europe has been fully appreciated yet, either by European or national political systems. I am sure he heard the announcements made at the meeting of Heads of State two weeks ago when the €750 billion plan was agreed. On the previous Thursday and Friday the people who had been willing to purchase the government debt of many of our neighbours effectively signalled they were not willing to continue to do so at the price being asked at the time. The markets believed there was a sizeable risk that other large European countries would not be able to honour their financial commitments in the coming five or ten years.

We have seen what happens when there is a lack of confidence in banks but if there is to be a lack of confidence in governments we are entering into a profoundly challenging period which may make what happened with our banking system seem relatively easy. We know who bailed out the banks — it was the governments. The new question is, "Who bails out the governments?" The answer is "other governments" but will they be able to do so for long? The answer to that question will shape the destiny of Ireland and the larger countries in the European Union.

Mr. O'Brien compared Ireland and Latvia and said that if a government engages in a very strong fiscal tightening process it does not appear to set off a vortex of expectations that the economy will be brought down. Ireland and Latvia are relatively small countries with open economies but I am not sure the analysis extends to Europe as a whole. If Germany tightened Government spending or its taxation provisions would that not have a negative spillover effect on the rest of Europe?

My next question is on how we track economic success in Europe. Most member states have looked at their performance in the context of the Stability and Growth Pact. Until quite recently, Spain was delivering on its targets under the pact and Ireland did the same, albeit for a shorter period. Is there not a case for widening the criteria by which we evaluate successful membership of the eurozone, away from budgetary measures towards criteria such as the sustainability of the economy, its reliance on bubbles or its productivity?

My final question is also on the Stability and Growth Pact. It appears to me that the euro is at a fork in the road. One way is a serious weakening of its credibility and the other is a far more intrusive, credible and well-operating Stability and Growth Pact. The ability of a monetary union to function without tighter fiscal co-ordination and supervision will be called into question. Is there another potential fork in the road that I may be missing?

At a time when there is a great deal of bad news it is nice to hear some good news. It is only appropriate to congratulate one of our members, who made a big decision last week.

May we see the ring?

It is a vote of confidence in the future. I wish Deputy Creighton the best of luck on her engagement.

I thank Mr. O'Brien for his presentation. It is very refreshing to hear somebody putting the hopes and concerns for the euro so succinctly. Senator Quinn asked about the possibility of Germany leaving the euro. Can Mr. O'Brien also give his views on France in that regard?

Mr. O'Brien said that to secure the future of the euro it would be necessary for Europe to play a more intrusive role. People attributed the success of the second vote on the Lisbon treaty to a greater awareness among the Irish people of the importance of Europe to us. How big a challenge would a more intrusive role be for national governments, in particular our own?

Could Mr. O'Brien comment on the level of sovereign debt within the EU, especially in Ireland? Where does he see the Irish Government's capacity to borrow going over the next number of months? To what rate does he think our borrowing costs could rise? To what level does Mr. O'Brien see the euro dropping?

Mr. O'Brien spoke about a jobs strategy for Europe. How does he see that developing in Ireland and Europe?

I apologise for arriving late. There is an ongoing debate about our corporate tax rates and they seem, politically at least, to be almost a sacred cow. Is it realistic to continue with a 12.5% tax rate as the linchpin of our economic strategy or is that a price too high to pay and is it at the expense of deeper fiscal and political integration at European level? Is this the direction we need to take and if so, do we need to make national sacrifices that will benefit our economy and currency in the long term? Is that a price we must pay?

I welcome Mr. O'Brien and apologise for missing his presentation. If Ireland was not part of the eurozone, where would it be now fiscally vis-à-vis domestic and international business and performance? Following the change of government in the United Kingdom, what are the indications with regard to the future of sterling vis-à-vis the euro? Does the euro system have the capacity to sustain a solid currency into the future and can it ensure the eurozone will be an economic force in the medium term?

Varied and interesting questions have been put to Mr. O'Brien, but one of the main issues is the issue of confidence. Whatever the eurozone countries and institutions do, restoration of confidence is of the utmost importance. A question has also arisen as to the value of the euro now compared to its value when it was first launched. The euro has steadily gained in strength against the dollar over a long period, and is still quite strong although it has fallen in recent times. What is the optimum value of the euro currently and should that value apply right across the European Union and eurozone countries, given it can have a different impact on different regions? Germany, for example, has always relied on a very strong currency, while our past experience has been that we have gained from a weakening value against other currencies at times.

Another issue concerns whether we need a common taxation and fiscal policy across the European Union. The suggestion has been made in some quarters that neither the euro nor fiscal policy throughout the Union will work unless we have this cohesion. I believe it would be dangerous to pursue that idea. Varied policies can and do work. Such a system has worked in the United States, for example, where there are vast discrepancies between the taxation and fiscal policies pursued in individual states. Incidentally, a number of states have been on the verge of a bust, but have recovered.

I attended the European People's Party conference in Brussels immediately after the launch of the stabilisation agreement. What emerged from discussion is that the one thing most required in the current situation is decisiveness, because decisiveness generates confidence. This is necessary in individual member states and the eurozone countries as a group. Anything that undermines that confidence is a serious disadvantage. If individual countries suggest they may not be capable or willing to comply with growth and stability guidelines, this may have a knock-on destabilising effect which will not be beneficial. Everybody agrees that tough decisions must be taken, but it is important that the decisions taken are the correct decisions. If the wrong decisions are taken, they will exacerbate an already serious problem. As Members of Parliament, we must often engage with companies and individuals in our constituencies with debt problems and we have come to recognise that one of the golden rules in this regard is that whatever resolution we come to, it should not be of such a burden as to make it impossible for the victim to survive or the whole thing will, inevitably, implode.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

Deputy Dooley mentioned an article by an academic economist here. I arrived late on Sunday night and have not seen that article.

I accept that.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I genuinely have not seen it. I understand, subject to correction ——

Does Mr. O'Brien only read credible articles?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

It is purely a time issue. Having listened to a discussion on the radio yesterday, I understand the professor believes the bankruptcy of this State will occur as a result of the failure of the banks and the guarantee.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

There are clearly two major problems here in terms of its fiscal sustainability. The bigger issue is the collapse in tax revenues and the other is the enormous cost of maintaining the integrity of the financial system. Whatever way we add it up, nobody can be certain of how great will be the impact of either of these issues. Just over a year ago, I said that Ireland had a 15% chance of going bankrupt. The spectre of states going bankrupt has been around for approximately 18 months and what we have seen in recent weeks demonstrates clearly that countries can get to the point where they will be locked out of capital markets that fund standard deficit financing and financing for things like bank rescues. Therefore, bankruptcy is a real possibility and a number of countries in Europe face going down the same route as Greece. That is a clear and present danger.

I would like to qualify what has been said. The point made in the article was that it was not a matter of if, but when. Mr. O'Brien indicated in the past that the chance of the State going bankrupt was 15%, but the professor obviously sees the chance as greater than 50%. What is Mr. O'Brien's view currently with regard to the likelihood of this happening?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

Since then there have been two significant changes. First, Ireland's budget last December was a proportionate response to the crisis. Over a period the Government's response went from being entirely inadequate to this proportionate response. At the time the fiscal crisis became clear, in late 2007 and early 2008, the budget for 2008 was brought forward to October 2007, but that was an entirely inadequate response to what was going on. It was followed by an emergency budget, which started to get more appropriate results and Ireland has now got itself into a position where it has regained credibility and many people would now hold Ireland up as a model of how to proceed. However, while changes have been made domestically, the external environment has deteriorated radically and because Ireland was so close to the edge when everything else started to go wrong, Ireland has been more vulnerable. Now as yield spreads on all Government bonds of various maturities show, Ireland and Portugal are perceived, there or thereabouts, as the riskiest countries. The chances of it reaching a point where, like Greece, Ireland would not be in a position to raise funding in the standard way would be somewhere in the region of 25%.

Does that have more to do with contagion than with domestic policy?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

The domestic side has improved. However, Ireland was pushed into the same bracket as countries such as Greece and once credibility is lost, it is extremely difficult to re-establish. That has been done to a considerable extent. The position the country reached and the fact that the external environment deteriorated after the revelations relating to Greece's deficit have more than offset the gain domestically.

Senator Quinn inquired about the possibility of Germany leaving the euro. Our organisation discussed this matter and tried to evaluate how it might happen. If Germany stated on Sunday night next that it intended to launch a new deutschmark, it would not face the kind of problems weaker countries would encounter. The main reason for a weak country wanting to leave the euro would be to allow its new currency to depreciate. In such circumstances, every right-thinking citizen would want to remove euros from his or her bank account, place them under the mattress and wait for the new currency to be devalued before changing them into that currency. It would be a case of hoisting a flag and stating "Let's have a run on our banking system". Everybody recognises that banking systems would collapse as a result of such moves.

What would be the implications of Germany launching a new deutschmark and leaving the euro? Germans would clearly not want to retain their euros. They would put all their cash into their bank accounts and wait for the changeover to the new deutschmark to occur. The difficulty in this regard is that Germany, with the exception of Russia and China, has more borders than any other country. In such circumstances, every sensible citizen in neighbouring countries would want to remove his or her euros from his or her bank account and deposit them with a bank in Germany. This would precipitate a run on the banking systems in all of the countries surrounding Germany.

The costs involved with dismantling the euro are so enormous that no government wants to discover just how bad they could be. The payment system would basically be shut down. When an extended bank strike occurred in the early 1990s here, there was no payment system in place. At that time, the economy was much more cash based. It is not at all clear how a modern economy such as ours could function in the absence of a payment system and the uncertainty to which this would give rise.

The supermarkets helped out to a major extent during the strike to which Mr. O'Brien refers.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I am much too young to remember what happened.

Is Senator Quinn referring to Dunnes Stores?

Mr. O'Brien should not allow members to deflect him from his course. They have a tendency to try to do that with delegates.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

With regard to an explanation for the absence of the kind of extremism that occurred in the 1930s, I would have attributed this to the difference between the subsistence line now and that which obtained then. In view of the social welfare safety nets in place, even people who are in dire circumstances, who are labouring under massive debt burdens and who may end up personally bankrupt do not have any doubts with regard to whether they can feed their children. When one is not facing the utter disaster of being completely desperate, it gives some sense of security. In the 1930s, prior to mass prosperity, a large percentage of the population hovered around the subsistence line. At that time, if one lost one's job one could not pay rent or feed the children. As a result, people ended up on the street seeking food at soup kitchens and living in tent cities. We have not reached such a pass because we are fortunate to live in an era of mass prosperity. Of course, I could be completely wrong. We are living in unprecedented times and it could be that there will be a time lag and that extremism will emerge at a later date.

I referred to a bubble in the context of China. The fiscal response in China — particularly on the part of its central bank — to maintaining growth makes anything done in the west appear small. China has flooded its economy with credit to maintain investment and consumption. Europe is my beat. However, my colleagues increasingly refer to the risk of a bubble in China. Given that China has contributed so much to maintaining demand in the global economy since the advent of the crisis, if there is a recession there, a large chunk of demand will be removed from the world economy. That would pose a further risk in the context of recovery.

A number of members referred to corporation tax and fiscal union. It has always been my view that setting tax rates has been a hugely contentious issue. Some countries want to move towards a harmonised corporation tax rate, while many others do not. Nothing is ever done because there are simply too many countries that do not want this to happen.

Within the new context, setting tax rates is just something that will not happen. There will be much greater scrutiny of budgetary plans, revenue projections and the kind of mechanisms that are in place to evaluate the efficacy of public expenditure. In advanced democracies such as those in Europe, however, the central contested political issue revolves around the rate at which governments tax and spend. That is the major core issue on which parties contest elections. It seems inconceivable that any constraint would be imposed in that regard. The constraint will be placed on offering, simultaneously, higher spending and lower taxes. That is simply not sustainable.

It seems it will be about sustainability of budgets. If Denmark and Switzerland want to have particular levels of taxation and expenditure, then that will be up to the people in those countries to decide. Likewise, it will be the responsibility of the people in southern European countries to decide whether they want to have much lower levels of taxation and expenditure.

The Senator referred to the extent of support among citizens for the EU. By any objective analysis, the European Union has been a very stabilising influence and has provided states with an effective mechanism through which they can co-operate with each other. I have lived in seven different European countries and I am always struck by the fact that the human drama of politics is what engages people. They like seeing political leaders become involved in debate. It is less about the dry, often technical issues and more about judging political leaders on their ability to project themselves, and so on. Much of what the European Union does in the areas of monetary and competition policy is extremely technical in nature. The EU just does not lend itself to the kind of human drama to which I referred earlier and people's focus very much remains on national politics. Perhaps it is the absence of human drama at EU level which has failed to engage people.

Senator Donohoe outlined his view that the scale of the challenge is not fully understood.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I agree with him that we are entering an age of austerity. This crisis has had an effect on the public finances in almost every country that is similar to the impact of a medium to large-scale war. It occurred at a time when there are all sorts of sustainability issues relating to public finances in the context of aging populations. As a result, there have been major increases in public debt levels in many countries. This problem will have to be addressed. For many countries, it happened quite quickly. It takes time for people to absorb major external changes, particularly when they relate to financial markets and many matters about which most individuals do not spend much time thinking. Due to the fact that the crisis in Ireland began earlier than elsewhere, economics has become an amateur pastime for many people. For example, I spent last week in Italy and despite its problems, there has not been a real crisis or a sense of crisis there. Its banks were highly boring and conventional and did not do crazy things and its economy has continued to chug along. While it has its problems, they are not the sort of problems that would make Italians feel as though this is very different from the past. Perhaps this is just one example.

Another possible explanation is that the financial system as we have known it in recent decades has failed fundamentally. When a critical system for an economy and a society fails, there are very large consequences and it takes everyone time to get to grips with such a significant change. This will require reregulation, waves of which are taking place in the financial system. Moreover, as a restructuring of the financial system is happening via the competition authorities in Europe, very significant changes are coming about to a critical system. This will take a long time to happen, will come in fits and starts and its consequences will be felt in different ways and are unknowable in some ways.

As for Ireland and Latvia, the Senator made the point that he is unsure whether Europe as a whole could do that. Yes, it is very difficult to know what effect this kind of fiscal austerity will have on the economy. I stated there is some hope in this regard because in the case of the two countries which have done it, although they did not have the benefit of exchange rate devaluation to enable a major boost in exports, at the same time the medicine has not killed the patient, as many people had claimed. Perhaps there will be a delayed response and perhaps there will be a depression-type cycle if more countries begin to do this. However, much of the thinking is conditioned by the 1930s and the Keynesian view that the desire of governments to balance budgets at a time when demand was collapsing was a mistake. That point still is contested and within the economics profession, the reasons for the depression and the policy causes for depression are still debated between monetarists and Keynesians. This is still a big debate and the truth is that we simply do not know. However, we have some evidence that gives some cause for hope that one can adjust fiscally, in a way that previously was inconceivable, without killing the patient.

The Senator also mentioned issues about tracking performance, because countries such as Spain and Ireland were complying with their Stability and Growth Pact headline commitments on deficits and I agree that will be part of it. I refer members to a publication by the European Commission, Public Finances in EMU 2007. It is akin to a telephone directory but in chapter 4, the Commission brought together the literature on sustainability in public finances. In order to try to embarrass the member states into improving the manner in which they do things, the Commission put together an index of best practice in public finance. The Commission broke it down into seven broad areas with sub-indices in each one and it ranked the countries by how modern they were and how up to best practice, as well as on degrees of prudence, analysis of what they were doing in respect of evaluating public expenditure, etc. The index, in which 19 of the 27 member states participated, revealed that Ireland and Greece were the countries with the weakest mechanisms. As Ireland and Greece had the biggest deficits last year, it contained much material to predict what would happen. It seems to me that part of the package will be that countries are put under greater pressure to do the right thing and to put in place best practice in respect of managing their budgets, which is no bad thing. Is it a terrible thing to be compelled to do the right thing?

As for the euro being at a fork in the road, there are three options. First, there is the status quo, which looks like a cul-de-sac and which has failed. Second, there is the option of a more rigorous Stability and Growth Pact to prevent failures again. Third, there is full fiscal union, for which there does not appear to be any political appetite. Therefore, it appears to me that the only direction that can be taken is on the path that is being taken.

Deputy Seán Power mentioned the possibility of France leaving the euro. Again, I believe we would have to get to the point at which financial systems had completely melted down and one had reached a year zero or blank page, at which every country was obliged to start again. God forbid that we ever get there but were this to happen, my sense would be that every country would wish to go it alone, having had such a disastrous experience with sharing a currency. No matter how much the Germans trusted the Dutch, they simply would state that everyone should do their own thing and would revert to the Deutschmark. In other words, I imagine that a break-up would involve a reversion to complete national fragmentation. Deputy Power also raised the Stability and Growth Pact and issues on intrusion, which I might already have covered.

I raised the intrusive role that Mr. O'Brien envisaged for the European——

Mr. Dan O’Brien

If one wants to have a currency union, it is now clear there are greater costs or at least constraints to having such a union than was originally anticipated. There may be other forks but I can only envisage three. As the status quo is simply unsustainable, that is a cul-de-sac. Moreover, as no one wants full fiscal union, it leaves intrusiveness as the only real alternative. There is no alternative other than to ditch the euro. As that would be to go backwards and I do not believe anyone wants that, it seems to me that there is now simply no other way.

Deputy O'Donnell referred to levels of Government debt and the capacity to borrow. It simply is anyone's guess. I referred to a ballpark figure of there being a 25% possibility of this country not being able to borrow. These numbers simply provide a sense of how serious the situation is.

I understand Mr. O'Brien has changed his view. Did he mention a 15% possibility previously?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

Around last May, I was asked at a conference here what was the probability and I replied that I thought it was 15% at that point. I now believe it is higher because of the external situation.

What does Mr. O'Brien envisage will be the cost of borrowing for Ireland over the next 12 months? In that context, are the bond markets taking into the account NAMA and the recapitalisation of the banks? Are they factoring that in as being, in essence, part of our national debt? Mr. O'Brien should comment on the optimum level of the euro and its potential impact. Obviously, a weaker euro is of benefit to Ireland in respect of exports but I refer to the impact on the cost of, and ability to access, borrowing.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

Perhaps I will deal with the issue of an optimal level for the euro first. I would not link the two things together. As for an optimal level, a currency is something that changes in price. The price of a currency is something that ideally reflects huge numbers of factors within an economy. Because economies are different and change at different rates, the argument is, particularly in respect of larger economies that are not exposed to a lot of trade, that currencies should have a floating exchange rate with currencies such as the dollar. In other words, a world currency would be excessively rigid. Some people argue clearly that the euro is excessively rigid but if one takes the dollar-euro exchange rate, it will move up and down to reflect differing conditions and changing conditions, which gives countries a degree of flexibility. Therefore, there is no perfect correct exchange rate level. At some point, a weaker value of the euro vis-à-vis the dollar is correct while at other times, a stronger value may be the correct level.

As for the question of whether the bond market has priced in these risks, I have been pretty much lost. Part of the failure of the financial system has been mispricing risk across multiple asset classes and clearly the financial system has mispriced sovereign debt. If one considers the most recent phase of the crisis, the revelations about Greece's public deficits came out in November 2009. However, up to Christmas, there was almost no reaction of the bond market to this development. It was extraordinary in that a country suddenly announced its deficit was multiples of what it had previously stated but the bond market did nothing. For the first ten years of the euro, the markets ignored risk and all euro area countries were viewed as equally risky. There was a debate on why this happened but the rationale was never that clear. That is how it was but it was a gross mispricing of risk, and now there has been a change.

I do not have much faith in bond markets to price these issues well. Countries are always in danger of something going wrong and a change in sentiment suddenly taking place in those markets. These can be animal spirits more than anything entirely rational.

Considering Ireland's budget deficit, one could say the money was being sunk into the banks rather than invested; it was approximately €4 billion last year. EUROSTAT is not giving a view on that money but if it is viewed as expenditure rather than anything else, the deficit in Ireland will expand over 19% of GDP. Could it be that on the day EUROSTAT makes that decision, the bond market could be spooked and something may happen? It is possible. It is impossible to tell what will happen in a market that is so fragile and has proved itself so poor at evaluating risk.

In Mr. O'Brien's expert opinion, why does Ireland — along with Portugal and Spain — continue to be so costly? Our bond spreads and the rate of interest have gone up in the past week. Why has that happened and why has Mr. O'Brien gone from 15% to 25% in talking about the risk of not being able to raise Government debt?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I stress that 25% is an indicative figure and I have not written it in any of our reports. Some 18 months ago it was inconceivable that an OECD country would default on sovereign debt. It was viewed in the same way as a meteor landing in that it was a tiny risk. We are now at a point where an OECD country has had to be bailed out and the world has fundamentally changed in that period. In the past year, as the often capricious bond markets know it can happen, it has caused the risk of Ireland facing the same issue.

The question was asked as to why Ireland is considered as risky as Portugal and Spain. Last year it had the largest deficit of the 27 countries, not just the previous earlier countries, in the EU. Its banking crisis is gargantuan and it will be very costly to fix. The failure to get to grips with the problem when it became obvious allowed a loss of credibility that has not been fully regained. Had the public finances been addressed when it became clear in 2007 that the property market was at the very least at a plateau and revenues would be affected, Ireland would not have been lumped into the ugly PIGS acronym.

Mr. O'Brien is referring to the December 2007 budget?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

The period takes in December 2007 and the early part of 2008. I wrote in a national newspaper that by the middle of 2008 it was very clear the public finances were out of control and almost nothing was being done. If action had been taken at that point, Ireland would have avoided being lumped in with those countries with a very bad record, the PIGS acronym that some people use. That is where we are.

We are coming to the end and there is one member yet to contribute. Perhaps Senator Hanafin can speak now and Mr. O'Brien could reply to him and the remaining questions in one go.

I thank Mr. O'Brien for his very comprehensive reply to each of the inquiries. He made two very interesting points on the same subject. He noted that one of the four reasons to be fearful was the extreme fragility of the financial system, and he subsequently said the financial system had failed. I believe he is right on both counts.

What we have not discussed but must is that even while the difficulties were heaped upon us through sub-prime lending, the hedge funds which created this lending leveraged themselves, on a margin of 2.8% in the case of Bear Stearns. Once the damage was created, hedge funds started to take positions against solid UK banks like HBOS and Lloyds while shares were falling because of this crisis. Even more worrying and demanding of immediate attention from the EU is the very deliberate attempt by hedge funds to undermine the euro. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange took a $15 billion position against the Greek debt, which is very serious. The City of London is bad-mouthing the euro countries which are most indebted.

There is no real alternative to the euro. If the Greeks exit the euro and go for the drachma, that currency will slide and the debt will remain in euro. We need to strongly regulate the vulture funds, as they are called, which have caused havoc in the market by deliberately taking stands against sovereign debt and creating a position which could lead to a default. These are very dangerous products which must be strongly regulated.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

There is no doubt that speculation was a destabilising aspect to the recent crisis. It is impossible to measure the extent to which these were pure speculative plays or more normal activity. I will briefly outline how this works. Many pension funds may hold an IOU from Ireland. That will stipulate, for example, that 5% interest will paid this year and next along with the 100% that is owed. These pension funds must be very conservative in how they invest premiums.

If such funds get information on the Greek position and hold a Greek IOU, the people in charge might feel they might not get the principal back, let alone the interest, so they might not want to keep the IOU. They can go the secondary market and sell the IOU to somebody else. It may be bought at 90% of the value and the purchaser will get a better return because the original 5% interest will apply to the IOU bought at 90% of its value. Somebody with a greater risk appetite will take that on.

The pension fund would lose money by selling the IOU at a lower price. What we saw in recent weeks was banks and pension funds, which are essential in any society or modern economy, fearing that they would not be repaid and getting rid of the stuff. It is not a speculative play but it drove the position. At the same time I agree with the Senator in that speculation had a destabilising effect and there should be greater regulation of speculative entities that contribute to volatility.

The sub-prime problem was primarily the result of standard banks issuing loans and then performing what is called securitisation. They would sell a bunch of loans to somebody else; those who originated the loans did not care if the loans were ever repaid. This involved, for example, bank managers in American retail banks. They knew from upstairs their loans would be sold on. Pure speculative play through instruments such as credit default swaps is a good idea in theory but does not work in practice. The use of outright bans on particular practices, types of bonds and instruments must be considered. We saw this in Germany last week and that radical restructuring and regulation will be part of the solution.

To prove the point, the Greeks refused to sell their last tranche of bonds to banks that had hedge funds or to hedge funds. They insisted on selling to either pension funds or insurance companies. That indicates how seriously they took the risk of selling to hedge funds. Hedge funds have created a crisis, where they dump stock and give the indication to the market that the stock is worthless and then buy the stock back at a fraction of what the stock is worth. There is proof that American hedge funds sought 100% payment on Argentinian bonds they had purchased at 20%.

Regarding sub-prime lending, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers were major players. It was not just banks. The amount of debt given to people with no income, no assets, no jobs and who were not only non-resident but illegal immigrants in America was reckless lending. Going back to Roosevelt's speech in 1932, he would have banned the merchant banks. We have a duty to ensure this type of reckless practice in the financial services sector ends.

We want to bring this meeting to a conclusion within the next ten minutes and a number of speakers want to intervene. The last point about hedge fund operators was brought home when we attended the initial COSAC meeting in Madrid in February. A considerable amount in hedge funds were available in the City of London for speculation. The recent part of the debate reflects that. With the assistance of modern technology, transactions can take place rapidly and multiple transactions can take place to a greater extent across the globe than before, and various economies can be vulnerable to market speculation and vulture speculation to a far greater extent than they were before. That is the case from our experience.

A number of questions from the last round remain unanswered. Perhaps Mr. O'Brien can incorporate these into his answers to the next two speakers.

Where would we be if we were not in the eurozone? What is Mr. O'Brien's anticipation vis-à-vis sterling? Does the euro apparatus have the capacity to have an impact on economic activity in the medium term?

I apologise for my late arrival as I was in the Dáil. I heard Mr. O'Brien's submission on the monitor and it was very insightful. If questions have been covered by other questioners, Mr. O'Brien need not answer and I will pick up on the answers later. Regarding the Irish economy and the Economist Intelligence Unit, what was the most pertinent forecast the unit provided for the downturn in Ireland? For how long did the Economist Intelligence Unit predict there would be difficulties in the Irish economy? I refer to the forecast for the euro for the remainder of the year and the global economy in general. What is the view of Mr. O'Brien on this? Does Mr. O'Brien see a return of consumer confidence? How can we assist in freeing up money? There is still much money on deposit in this country. What can be done to free that money to kickstart consumer confidence?

To follow the point made by Senator Hanafin, I agree with much of what he said about the role of hedge funds. The broader point about the relationship between governments and bond markets is that if governments had not run their national finances so badly over the past number of years, they would not be in the situation where they have handed so much power to the bond markets. If we did not find ourselves in a situation where governments have structural deficits and need the bond markets to fund those deficits, the bond markets would not have the power they can use against us. So much of the power we are all worried about happens because politicians handed over the power in the first place. They did this by making the wrong decisions about budgets when the economy was going so well.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

If Ireland was not in the euro the situation would be much worse. At the time of the financial crisis Ireland would have gone the way of Iceland. Subsequently, we saw what happened in Iceland with inflation soaring to 20%, people outside the country were stuck outside and could not use their bank cards. The price of basic imported products rocketed because the currency collapsed. Up to this point, being in the eurozone has been a stabilising factor. The internal adjustment must be made through wages and prices rather than through a depreciating currency. One pays the price for that stability. There is no possibility of Britain joining the euro. Between the experience of the euro and the change of Government, it is inconceivable at this point.

It is further away than ever?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

I would go further than that. I cannot conceivably see a time when the UK will give up the pound.

Senator Hanafin and I must go to a vote in the Seanad but we would appreciate if Mr. O'Brien can answer our questions. We will have a look at them later.

Mr. Dan O’Brien

Deputy Timmins referred to forecasts by the Economist Intelligence Unit. I am getting out of the forecasting business and I am glad to do so.

Is Mr. O'Brien getting out at the top?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

That will be for the committee to judge. If we see a risk to an economy, we do not forecast the crash but increase the probability of a crash. All our numbers show a gradual slowdown in a future period. We insert a box saying that the risk to the forecast is 10%, 15% or 20%. By 2007, the risk to our forecast was 45%. In other words, it was touch and go whether our gentle decline to low growth would develop into a crash. We never specifically came out and said that Ireland would have a recession. Like many other forecasters, we were not waving a flag saying there would definitely be a recession. That is a failure on my part.

Regarding what will happen to the global economy, our central forecast is that the recovery will continue. That is what we are saying but there are big risks coming from some of the matters we discussed earlier. These include the euro area, other countries having sovereign debt crises up to and including the US, and a bubble in China. There are many risks to our forecast for a gradual return to growth in the world economy.

Regarding the return of consumer confidence, the measure of consumer confidence by the ESRI and one of the banks shows a steady increase over the past year. It is now approximately 40% above the floor in 2008. Despite that, the consumer spending measure has been going in the opposite direction. What people are saying about their confidence is exactly the opposite of what they have been doing, measured by what they are actually spending. However, it seems consumer spending is beginning to bottom out and, in the past four months, the figures have been showing an upward trend, albeit from a very low level. Consumer confidence figures are rising more sharply than they did over most of last year. It seems as if the fear factor which was present for a long time is now dissipating. It will be interesting to see what impact the latest crisis has had on consumer confidence. I imagine it has had a negative impact but the magnitude remains to be seen.

Senator Donohoe made the point that governments are primarily responsible for fiscal mismanagement. That is true and in this crisis, while many things are in short supply, blame is not one of them. The bond market is supposed to act as a vigilante on governments and its failure to price the risk was part of the problem. Nevertheless, governments did not do enough to put their public finances in a firmer position during the good times. Governments have to be blamed if they get their own finances into a mess.

Is Mr. O'Brien satisfied that there are large, private investments and deposits within the eurozone? Does he have any suggestions on how these might be used to stimulate the markets?

Mr. Dan O’Brien

At a time like this there is a limited amount governments can do to proactively get things moving. Deputy Timmins asked whether something could be done to unlock savings and stimulate the economy. Governments have to avoid making mistakes and to try to get the broader environment back onto a more solid footing to allow companies and individuals to feel their investment and spending plans for the future are safe.

I thank Mr. O'Brien for a very comprehensive response to a comprehensive series of questions. I hope the information he has provided can be used for the benefit of the country and the economy in the coming times. I have no doubt there will be revisions of all predictions at later stages, as is usually the case. We hope Mr. O'Brien's worst predictions will not transpire and that his best case scenarios come to pass.

I want to be associated with the Chairman's comments. This was one of the most helpful and insightful contributions we have heard. Most people who come before the committee tend to hedge their bets but Mr. O'Brien has given us much food for thought and was very constructive.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 June 2010.
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