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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN SCRUTINY díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Nov 2009

Proposals on Cross-Border Health Care: Discussion with Department of Health and Children.

The next item is scrutiny report No. 26, which contains proposals for a directive of the European Parliament and the Council on the application of patients' rights in cross-border health care. We are meeting with officials of the Department of Health and Children. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Jim Breslin, assistant secretary, Mr. Shay McGovern, assistant principal, and Ms Cathy Skelly, legal adviser to the Department.

Before we begin, I wish to draw attention the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such as a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Jim Breslin

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the proposed EU directive. I would also like to record the Minister's appreciation of the work of the committee on this subject. In particular, the committee's report on this subject has been of assistance to the Department in the negotiations which are continuing on the directive.

The draft directive was brought forward by the Commission to codify and clarify the application of European Court of Justice case law on patients' rights in cross-border health care. This case law has established that as part of EU freedoms to obtain services and freedom of movement, patients have the right to access health care in another member state and be reimbursed for this up to the cost of the treatment in their own state. Therefore, previous ECJ rulings have established a legal basis under existing treaties for patients to access health care in another member state. For example, the Watts judgment of the ECJ on 16 May 2006 made clear that the requirement in Article 152 of the treaty to "fully respect the responsibilities of the member states for the organisation and delivery of health services and medical care" does not exclude recourse to other aspects of community law so as to allow access by patients to health services in other member states. Other treaty provisions of particular relevance are the right to free movement of services under Article 49 of the treaty, and the considerations that have to be taken into account in harmonising rules related to the Internal Market under Article 95. That latter article supplies the legal basis for much of the Commission text.

Undoubtedly and very importantly, health care is seen as having distinguishing characteristics from other services, in particular the responsibility of member states to protect the health of their citizens. However, these particular features of health care, including the responsibility of members states identified in Article 152, do not provide unlimited or arbitrary discretion for member states as to whether and to what extent other treaty provisions or community measures are respected. Restriction of freedoms provided elsewhere in the treaties must be proportionate and justifiable by reference to what is necessary to protect public health and to maintain and regulate their own health care systems.

It is important to note that the ECJ jurisprudence is evolving and there can be debate as to how the rulings in particular cases might be more generally applied. This is not a particularly satisfactory situation, since patients and members states would benefit from more settled law and greater clarity and consistency as to its application. The proposal for a directive in this area is an effort to address this problem.

The current proposal follows on from the Commission's withdrawal of its earlier attempt to include provisions dealing with the rulings of the ECJ on free movement as it applies to health services in a directive on services in the Internal Market initiated in 2004. However, in response to concerns on the part of both the European Parliament and Council, the health care provisions were dropped from the services directive. It was felt that the particular features of health services required that it be looked at separately from other services. The Commission, therefore, has taken that advice from the Council and the Parliament in bringing forward this directive.

The Commission proposal was published in July 2008. From the outset, the Department identified this draft directive as being of considerable significance for Irish patients and health care administration. In July 2008, the Department initiated a public consultation process and liaised with key stakeholders. We began the process of systematically assessing its implications. In addition to establishing our key interests and points of concern, we recognised that decisions on the text are subject to qualified majority voting. Accordingly, we have constructively engaged with other member states and the Presidencies to achieve common understandings. Since the proposal will be addressed in association with the European Parliament under the co-decision process, we have also liaised with Irish MEPs and the rapporteur appointed by the Parliament.

Our approach has been to influence the content of the proposed directive as much as possible in order to achieve the key objective of codifying the existing legal position in a way that is workable, and to the greatest degree possible, consistent with existing legal, policy and administrative arrangements in Ireland.

Before dealing with areas where we have sought to achieve improvement, it is important to highlight the benefits attaching to the proposed directive. The first and foremost benefit is the increased patient choice provided for in the draft directive. While it can be expected that citizens will usually continue to prefer to receive health care close to where they live, there are always specific circumstances where it may be more beneficial or preferable to receive health care abroad. Facilitating people who wish to access care abroad will be much more easily achieved using the arrangements between member states that are proposed under the directive. For example, patients who live in border regions may find health care provided across the border is closer to home, work or family support. On other occasions patients may wish to access expertise available in another member state, such as for certain highly specialised treatments. In such a case, patients will have the right to receive health care in another member state and be reimbursed for that health care up to the cost of treatment in Ireland. We see that as a very important benefit set out in the directive.

The directive also provides legal clarity for patients and member states in cases where definite rights to cross-border health care exist but the mechanisms to ensure these rights are respected are anything but clear. Explicitly, the directive also recognises that member states are responsible for the organisation and delivery of health services and medical care and, in particular, they are responsible for determining which rules apply to the reimbursement of patients and the provision of health care. It is also worth noting that the directive provides no new entitlement or eligibility for citizens beyond the entitlement and eligibility to services that they enjoy in their home member state. That is important in respecting the role of member states. The directive provides for co-operation in a range of very fruitful areas such as e-health and networks of centres of reference.

The proposal for a directive on patient rights has been examined by the Council working party on public health over the past 18 months. It has been discussed by Ministers at two Council meetings and two other informal Council meetings. The draft directive has been subject to progress reports from the French and the Czech Presidencies. Over the process of negotiation, the French, Czech and now the Swedish Presidency have addressed a number of issues of concern. I include in this prior authorisation, gatekeeping processes, mutual recognition of prescriptions and co-operation between member states.

The process of consideration is by no means complete but many of our concerns in these areas have been addressed. Work continues in other areas, including the treatment of non-contracted providers, which includes in our case private health care providers, as set out in the committee's report at paragraph 3.3, and the relationship with regulation 883. That is set out in the committee's report and we continue to seek to address those issues in the negotiations.

Our understanding at this stage is that the Swedish Presidency intends to seek a political agreement at the next Council meeting in early December. Negotiations have not yet reached a point where the position to be tabled by the Presidency or the views of member states are finalised. Once the Presidency text is available, the Minister will consider the position to be adopted when she meets the other health Ministers in Council. Meanwhile, contacts with other member states and the presidency are continuing via the Council working party on public health, COREPER meetings of the permanent representatives and through bilateral discussions.

Under the COREPER decision procedure, if agreement is achieved at the December meeting of Council, it would open the way for negotiations with the European Parliament, and they would likely get under way early in the new year. The European Parliament has already completed its own first reading of the directive in advance of the last elections. Essentially, it is on hold waiting for the Council to come back with its view. The Parliament made significant modifications to the Commission text and it is also expected that the Council will make significant modifications. It will therefore fall to the next Presidency to negotiate the outcome with Parliament.

Depending on progress, it is possible that agreement on the directive could be achieved late in 2010 under the Belgian Presidency or early in 2011 under the Hungarian Presidency. Following a second reading agreement, there would be a 12-month transition period prior to implementation. On that current schedule, it could be during the course of 2012.

I hope the presentation has been of assistance to the committee and I am happy to hear the views of members and take questions.

I thank Mr. Breslin for a very comprehensive overview of the important directive.

I welcome Assistant Secretary Jim Breslin, Ms Kathy Skilly, the legal adviser, and Mr. Shay McGovern, assistant principal. This has been dealt with very comprehensively by the Department and the approach of the MEPs has kept it moving. The implications for the public will be co-operation between the northern territory's hospitals and southern hospitals. They are working very well and it is important to have that continued approach. There will probably be a statutory basis under this European legislation, although the institutions are working very well on an informal basis currently.

Where does this leave the national treatment purchase scheme with regard to cost? If an operation cannot be carried out within a certain time in this jurisdiction, it will be arranged for the operation to be carried out in another European country under the scheme. Generally, it is in Britain but sometimes it is in Germany. Currently there are cost implications for the scheme, although some of this would relate to travel and the cost of sending a patient to a country, such as accommodation and other ancillary costs. How will the directive change the role of the treatment purchase scheme, which has been very effective?

On the other side of the coin, what is the role of the companies involved in providing health care, such as the VHI and Quinn, in encouraging patients to travel abroad for treatment as opposed to having it carried out in this jurisdiction? I remember a particular case involving a very prominent journalist based in Brussels who received treatment in Belgium under the present regime. As far as I know that is possible at the moment, and this directive will put the process on a statutory footing, which would make it more available to patients from Ireland. Although we have an excellent health service here, there are times when people could possibly seek more specialist treatment in the other 26 countries in the Union.

I commend the officials as it is a detailed and complex issue but it has been dealt with. It should be finalised as soon as possible.

That is a very important question. Does the witness wish to deal with it before proceeding?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There are a couple of points. The national treatment purchase fund, as the Senator has correctly pointed out, over and above what would be provided in the directive, deals with the full cost - including the travel cost - of an individual. It is our intention to retain that. The directive does not require us to meet the travel costs of individuals under the directive. The treatment purchase fund targets a particular category of people waiting long periods that we wish to deal with. We will continue to provide for those through the treatment purchase fund but for others that may wish to go by their own means, we will recoup the cost of the treatment under the directive.

This was highlighted in our consultation process by groups like the Irish Patients Association, which is very fond of the national treatment purchase fund, and was anxious that this directive would not cut across it and reduce what is available to patients. There is no possibility of that as currently drafted.

The Senator referred to journalist Tommy Gorman. He availed of an existing provision in the EU which will continue. For treatment not available in Ireland, one can apply for and be authorised to travel abroad to a specialist centre to receive that treatment. In that instance, the cost of the treatment and the travel costs will be met. That is preferable to this process but it is confined to cases where the treatment is unavailable in Ireland.

The directive provides a more routine case where the treatment is available but it may be more convenient for a person to go to another country, or the person may prefer a doctor or the reputation of that country. The existing schemes in the treatment purchase fund and the treatment abroad scheme will continue.

I thank Mr. Breslin for the presentation. Senator Leyden asked some of the questions I wanted to ask. Will Mr. Breslin give an outline of what would happen in this process if a patient went to Northern Ireland, or if somebody from Cork or Wexford took the boat to France? People may be on holidays in Portugal in Spain. Is there a difference between private and public health care in this process? A person on holiday in Spain or Portugal may be covered by VHI, Quinn or one of those insurance companies. How would this work out for those people? They could get sick while abroad or may have chosen to have treatment in the other jurisdiction. Where Ireland has the capacity, I presume it is also in a position to offer specialist treatment here for people from outside of the country and that it could advertise this to patients in member states. I suppose it will work both ways.

Mr. Jim Breslin

The Senator is correct, if capacity existed in our public system, we could be reimbursed for treating patients from other countries. However, as our capacity is fully utilised currently, I cannot see our public system marketing itself in other countries. If somebody wanted to come here for a particular reason, we now have a directive that clarifies how we should approach that situation. It would be more likely that private hospitals in Ireland might wish to attract patients from other countries. The directive, depending on how it is finalised, appears to provide them with scope to do that.

Committee members may be aware that we already have in place a European health insurance card and people are advised to take that with them when travelling on holidays. The card is, essentially, for emergency treatment. If something happens to people abroad and they need treatment, they show the European health insurance card and a provider in the public system of the other member state will provide treatment at no cost.

The directive is probably more related to planned trips abroad, where someone has planned a trip abroad to get treatment. Reference was made to the Border. The type of scenario that might present where people wish to avail of the directive could, for example, relate to treatment over the Border. For example, it would be possible for somebody to decide that the GP just over the Border is somebody he or she wishes to be treated by. In that situation, if the directive was in force, we would reimburse the person the cost of being treated by an Irish GP. If the person had a medical card, we would work out how much it would cost us under the medical card scheme for the treatment by a GP and would repay that cost. In that way, the person would be able to finance treatment by somebody across the Border. It is important to point out that people are only able to avail of the entitlements they have in Ireland. Therefore, if a person did not have a medical card and had to pay for his or her own GP treatment, the same would apply if the person travelled abroad for treatment. Entitlement relates to the person's entitlement in his or her member state.

A more obvious and attractive example would be where somebody needs a procedure done in a hospital. In that situation, under the directive, the person might decide he or she wants to go to Liverpool or France. The person would, based on the procedure involving an overnight stay and a significant cost, make contact with the national contact point here in Ireland and inform it he or she wanted to go to Liverpool and ask how much he or she would be reimbursed for the orthopaedic hip operation he or she wanted to get done. The contact agent would inform the person that in the event he or she travelled, the Department would pay - it would have calculated the cost of that treatment in Ireland - say €1,600. The person would then go and meet the costs of the treatment and be reimbursed on return.

Who makes that arrangement? Is it the Department?

Mr. Jim Breslin

We would have to appoint a national contact point. We have not decided yet. It would be the Department's responsibility to put an arrangement in place. A suggestion was made that the National Treatment Purchase Fund could take responsibility. That might be relevant, as might the HSE. The Department will identify who it will be.

I thank Mr. Breslin for his presentation. On that particular point, in a situation where one is faced with a heart-lung transplant or a liver transplant, one might have to travel to see a specialist. Mr. Breslin said costs would be reimbursed, but if there is a gap between the reimbursement and the cost, is the patient liable for the difference? For example, if it costs €100,000 for the operation and the Irish will only reimburse €50,000 of that cost, is the patient or the patient's insurer liable for the balance? What way does that work?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Under the directive, if there is a gap, the patient would be liable, but there could be a situation where the person's insurer would be prepared to make up the difference. With regard to the Deputy's reference to heart-lung operations, I would say the first avenue in that situation would be decide whether this was something that was available in Ireland. Many of our heart-lung operations are done in Newcastle and under the public to public system we meet those costs in full. We fly the individuals over to Newcastle and back and make other similar arrangements.

People will have more choice under the directive. It does not mean they have to give up existing entitlements, where they might get the full reimbursement. In a situation where they do not have other entitlements under the existing provisions, they have a new entitlement under the directive, which will allow them to be reimbursed up to the cost in Ireland. However, the question is whether that would be less than the cost in other countries where they could shop around and try and find it within their costs.

The answer, therefore, is that the patient may be liable for the difference.

I welcome Mr. Breslin. In many other countries costs would be less than in Ireland. Does the Department hand the cheque to the patient and tell him or her to keep the change or does it pick up the tab at the place where the procedure has been carried out? I presume that if the cost is less than here, the Department will pay that amount and the patient does not get a bonus that would provide a holiday afterwards or anything like that.

Mr. Jim Breslin

Yes.

How far do the boundaries for such health care extend? For example, can one travel to another country for diagnosis? If someone feels he or she has a problem and that the service is better in some other country, can that person go abroad to be diagnosed? Can the person get care subsequently in the same area and rehabilitation if required? How far do the parameters extend?

How does Article 152 kick in with regard to each member state having responsibility for its own health care service? Can the Department simply say "No" to someone because the service is provided here and there is no reason the patient cannot have treatment here? Can it say it is the State's responsibility to provide the care and it will not provide it outside the State? Did Mr. Breslin say a trip would not be funded anyway and that it is only the cost of the care that will be funded? Am I correct in saying that the travel costs will not be funded?

Who picks up the tab if, for example, a person is a member of the VHI and has sufficient private insurance cover for a particular treatment? Can a patient deal directly with the insurer and tell it that he or she wants the particular treatment in a certain country because it has a good reputation? Is the Department setting up a clearing house to deal with the issue and will everybody have to apply to this clearing house for permission to travel abroad for treatment? Will it be controlled by the Department of Health and Children or will private insurers be able to decide it is fine because there is enough insurance and it is therefore appropriate for it to cover the treatment? Can it tell the patient to go ahead and get the treatment?

Are we talking about health care tourism here? It seems to me that almost every country is cheaper than Ireland for health treatment and that it would be in the interests of the Department of Health and Children to ensure as many people as possible go abroad for health care treatment. I may be wrong about that, but health costs here are expensive in comparison with other European Union countries. It seems it would be well worth our while if people decided to get treatment elsewhere. Does the Department agree with that or where does it draw the line and say "No"?

I note a European Union budget of €2.6 million has been identified with regard to this directive. That will not go far. It would appear that money will go to administration and information. Therefore, the European Union will not play a role in this, but leave it up to the member states. Are we likely to get a decision on 1 December?

Mr. Jim Breslin

The Deputy's reference to the Department meeting the actual cost is correct. We will not give people top-ups but we will meet the cost when they travel. The entitlement is a good starting point. The amount a person will be reimbursed is that person's entitlement in Ireland. Article 152 allows Ireland to set the entitlements and the extent to which the Department will reimburse them. The EU is not interfering in setting the boundaries in regard to what public patients are entitled to in Ireland. It provides that one can take one's entitlement in Ireland and exercise it in another member state and, if so, one will be reimbursed.

On the question of the boundaries, health care is defined within the directive and one's primary care and general practitioner would come within it, as would secondary care and to some extent rehabilitation, although it appears long-term care will not be provided for specifically. Those elements are provided for but there is another important feature in it which has been progressed during the negotiations. Certain systems, including Ireland, have what might be called a gatekeeper. One cannot roll-up to an acute hospital in Ireland and ask to see a particular consultant for a particular illness; one has to go to a GP and get a referral. The purpose of that is to do a proper assessment at an acute hospital and to get an expert opinion. If one was to travel to exercise one's entitlements in Ireland one would still have to observe the gatekeeper concept that we create here. One could go for a GP opinion but if one wanted the opinion of an orthopaedic specialist in another country, one would have to go to one's GP and get a referral.

That is a referral to another country.

Mr. Jim Breslin

Yes. That is important for the holistic health care provision. We do not want people jumping on trains and aeroplanes to have individual complaints dealt with outside of the family doctor relationship that we think is an important feature of our system.

How does it operate in a cross-Border area, for example, in Northern Ireland and the Republic? Could one have a doctor in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Jim Breslin

One could. Reference was made to the existing informal type relationships that have developed. For example, out-of-hours GP co-operatives straddle parts of the Border so that the doctor treating a patient may be from across the Border because it is the quickest response. We would see it as important in the context of the implementation of a directive such as this that we would work through it with our Northern Ireland counterparts to a greater degree.

For Belgium and France?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Yes. We are probably less impacted than certain member states such as Luxembourg that are surrounded and would have a good deal of flow in and out.

The Deputy referred to health care tourism. There is an element of informed health care consumers seeking out where it is they want to be treated. In terms of the Department's interest in having one travel to the lower cost health care countries, one of the features of our system is that we give our budgets out to our providers based on what they received last year. One of the challenges for us in this system is that we will have given out our budget. If the people decide not to go to the Irish health care providers to whom we have allocated a budget, how do we pay for it when they travel? We will have to make some plan for this provision but our guess is that this will not be a significant feature. The Commission estimates that about 1% of EU budgets are currently used for cross-border health care. We expect this to be relatively modest and that it will not challenge our system to a significant degree. I do not see it as a particularly attractive option for us to move all of our patients into low-cost countries. We have some costs in the Irish health care system and staff on payroll and so on which have to be paid. It is not something we would go out of our way to promote for those reasons.

Are the patients who are travelling overseas being monitored on an on-going basis? Has there been an increase in the numbers travelling and is there a move towards the tourism area in the same way as people get work done on their teeth?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Under the existing provisions, that is, the specialised treatments that are not available in Ireland, we have not seen a big upsurge but there has been an increase. We probably would have seen the use of European health insurance cards grow but I think that is related to people's travel. There are more people travelling now, or at least there were, to other EU countries. We have not seen a significant growth. There could be some travel at present where the patient writes the cheque and does not come back to the Irish health care system. The Deputy has identified travel associated with orthodontic treatment. We would be aware of travel in respect of those procedures but we do not reimburse them, therefore, we do not have clear figures. As a matter of policy the National Treatment Purchase Fund has allowed people to go to specific providers, particularly in England. That has increased during the past ten or 15 years.

Will this directive put the onus on the Department to look at the funding of orthodontic treatment?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There might be niche areas. I said that about 1% of costs might be in this area. In the area of orthodontics there would be more incentives for people to travel because of the costs involved and the fact they may not be as fragile or as ill as people in other situations. It is possible that we will see areas such as that and we will have to plan around them. We will have to make clear peoples' entitlements in those areas and the schedule of fees for which they would be entitled to reimbursement and make that information known through the system that will be set up here.

That would be very interesting in regard to orthodontic treatment and might have many repercussions. I asked about a clearing house and whether VHI or the Quinn group would be in a position to do the business themselves. Can we expect some progress on 1 December? The Swedes are anxious to get a result.

Mr. Jim Breslin

On the concept of the clearing house there is provision for prior authorisation, that is, Ireland has to authorise one to travel and to tell one how much one will be reimbursed. That does not apply to all health care. For low-cost, non-specialist, non-hospital treatment one could go and present the bill in Ireland. For more specialised treatment, that is, treatment where there is a quality issue or a risk to the patient, one would apply to the clearing house which will be established by the Department. Therefore, we would know in advance the demand in this area and the costs attaching. It will also allow for information to be provided to the individual. Following contact, the clearing house will say how one will be dealt with and what one can expect.

In respect of private health insurers, they have not had to operate within a system where this exists. If there was a particularly strong reason one needed treatment in another country, private insurers might be prepared to discuss the issue but this would create a scenario where it was much more common-----

To get a better deal? One might get it cheaper.

Mr. Jim Breslin

It is possible that private insurers will begin to think how policies in this area are covered once the directive takes effect.

The question was asked about whether the public system was prepared to reimburse costs if there was a difference between Irish costs and those in another country. They might be prepared to write a policy that provides that if one is in that position it would meet the difference if one was prepared to give a subscription. It is a dynamic situation and hard to predict where they might go. They would certainly assess this issue as another factor in the market.

The Deputy is correct in regard to progress on 1 December. The Swedes have made this a top priority for their Presidency and are pushing for agreement. A number of meetings are taking place with a view to achieving political agreement in December. At the moment they have not got a full consensus but most of the work happens at the 11th hour and it is quite possible there will be movement towards member states with a view to resolving the issues. A political agreement might be achieved in early December and that would open up the discussion with Parliament. It has moved along in a businesslike fashion but there is a lot of complexity. The Swedes will try to achieve agreement in December because it would be a feather in their cap.

If it was agreed during the Swedish Presidency how long might it take to be implemented?

Mr. Jim Breslin

It would go to the Spanish Presidency early next year to kick off the negotiations with Parliament. If that went smoothly the Belgian Presidency, at the end of next year, might be able to conclude something. It is possible that no agreement will be reached and that would lead to a conciliation process which would put the timetable back. If agreement was reached at the end of next year there would then be a transition period of some 12 months so the most likely implementation date would be in 2012.

I am sure this does not cover cosmetic surgery but purely that of a medical nature.

One can have cosmetic surgery on medical grounds.

Maybe it applies to that type of surgery as well. Are there procedures to deal with negligence? It is difficult to initiate a procedure against a consultant or surgeon in a foreign country.

A point was made on the accreditation given to private hospitals. Even in this country personnel can be appointed who are not accredited by the Department. Is there an established criterion in member states for private hospitals in regard to the professionals they employ? What is the position in respect of litigation where employees are not accredited?

Mr. Jim Breslin

If people are not entitled to cosmetic surgery in the Irish public system they will not be entitled to it abroad. We do not do surgery for purely cosmetic reasons but we carry out restorative work on people who have been scarred and require plastic surgery. The excesses we see in Hollywood television programmes will not be funded by the taxpayer, however.

The directive contains a provision whereby member states must ensure a means of redress if harm is caused to a patient by treatment. We must have a set of rules for a person treated in Ireland to enable him or her to make a complaint or take legal action for redress. Anybody travelling for treatment would have a similar means of redress. There is also a responsibility on member states to set quality criteria. The Chairman is correct to say that most of our quality inspection and licensing is related to our public system so we will need to work to ensure all health care in Ireland has some quality oversight. We have already flagged that as a key priority for the Department arising from the commission on patient safety but this makes it more important.

There is quite a lot of litigation in the health system involving medical professionals who do not have accreditation. Uniformity of accreditation in private and public hospitals is necessary because private hospitals can employ people from anywhere in the world and their qualifications may not stack up to how they appear on paper.

The Department has made a seismic shift in its approach to the implementation of this directive. What has caused that?

Mr. Jim Breslin

We have steadily achieved common ground. For example, at the outset, prior authorisation was narrowly defined but has now opened up to include not just overnight stays in hospitals but specialist care, which uses a lot of resources. We have secured concessions, although as a small member state we did not get everything we wanted. We may get more concessions in December and the Minister will have to make a call at that time. A number of our reservations have now been withdrawn and we will continue to keep it under review.

Does Mr. Breslin see the possibility of registration for participating hospitals? Is there an obligation on member states to pay within, say, 60 days or 90 days? If a person enters a hospital on the authorisation of the Department will he or she need to produce a credit card? Who oversees consultation fees and who processes invoices?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There is a minimum period by which the costs must be recouped but I have forgotten precisely what it is.

It may be possible to specify the timeframe. There should be an obligation within member states to set a timeframe of two or three months from discharging a patient in which there is a legal obligation to make the payment.

Mr. Jim Breslin

That would be fair. As well as the Council, the Parliament has considered the Commission text and it has sought movement in that regard so that patients will not be out of pocket for too long.

Patients may not be too well and may be intimidated by visiting a new consultant. A formal document which clearly stated when they would be paid would spare them the embarrassment of having to deal with the issue themselves. Does the directive apply to private hospitals as well as public hospitals in other jurisdictions?

Mr. Jim Breslin

That is one of the issues still being dealt with. In many jurisdictions private hospitals are part of the health care system. That is not the case in Ireland so we are still working through that issue.

Some people go into a public hospital but are told they have to wait for nine months so they decide to go private. How does the Department differentiate between public and private in categorising approvals? A person obtains authorisation to travel but is there a waiting list?

Mr. Jim Breslin

If a person can get the treatment in Ireland within a timeframe that is medically justifiable it is possible that we would not give the prior authorisation. It would depend on specific medical circumstances. If it is a heart condition, we will have to be very quick in making it available in Ireland. If it was something less urgent-----

Has the Department studied the audit of the National Treatment Purchase Fund by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Yes.

Would this be an upgrade on the NTPF?

Mr. Jim Breslin

For those who fall within the NTPF at the moment - they tend to be the people who wait over 12 months - the NTPF is preferable. Those who do not fall within the NTPF - those who wait for three to four months - would be able to utilise this in the absence of being able to utilise the NTPF.

Is it for elective procedures?

Mr. Jim Breslin

It will be used mainly for elective procedures. If it is an emergency and the person needs treatment abroad, it will normally be because that person is abroad when illness has struck. In that case, the person would use the European health insurance card.

Would there be budgetary constraints on this from an Irish perspective? Can people go abroad for a second opinion?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Yes, that would be provided for. There is a point at which if this was to undermine the financial stability of our system, Article 152 of the treaties and the directive itself would allow us to refuse people through prior authorisation. If there was a category of patients who were travelling at huge cost and were starting to undermine the service available to people generally, then we would be able to put in trigger mechanisms to change that.

I have been told that in private hospitals, many consultants carry out unnecessary procedures just to keep the doors open. There is a problem with the viability of medical institutions in private hospitals. One might go in with nothing wrong, but one will come out with something wrong, because the nature of the business is to keep the private hospital open. Consultants are there to generate business, so how can the Department deal with that situation?

Mr. Jim Breslin

Our gatekeeper systems that are already in place would be important. People cannot go to a consultant in Belgium or somewhere else without first going through their own GP.

Will the HSE be able to cope with a big influx of patients coming here, were it to happen?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There is a reserve provision in the directive that if the numbers coming here were such that it was interfering with the routine treatment of our own patients, the HSE would be in a position to stop it. Given the capacity constraints in our public system, other than for some areas in which we are particularly expert, it is likely that travel for the purposes of this directive would not be into our public system. Such travel might be into private hospitals in Ireland, but not so much into our public system.

Has the issue of comitology for the co-operation of member states' health care systems been deleted from the proposed directive?

Mr. Jim Breslin

It has been deleted from some of the areas, and it was one of the things that we addressed in the negotiations. There are a couple of specific areas involved, particularly the recognition of prescriptions and the European reference networks, where the member states believe it is important that the Commission put standards in place to ensure that the system for recognition operated uniformly across Europe. In that situation, we have been prepared to state that this should be through the process of comitology. In other areas that only require co-operation, such as e-health and health technology assessment, we have stated that we do not want comitology. That has been agreed at this stage.

What about checking on the authority of those who prescribe drugs?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There will have to be an agency or some body put in place under the Commission to ensure that if a pharmacist in Sneem gets a prescription written by a doctor in Belgium, that pharmacist is able to check that the doctor is registered and is authorised to prescribe the medicine.

There is a big issue in Ireland with the cost of generic drugs. Is there a facility where people are prescribed drugs and can get them by post?

Mr. Jim Breslin

The existing prohibitions on that in member states would continue to apply.

Can this draft directive be agreed by the Council? What alternatives are available to the Commission and the member states that would properly address the decisions of the ECJ and provide legal certainty to the provision of cross-border health care, in line with the principles of the Internal Market?

Mr. Jim Breslin

This is tricky. If there is no agreement on this. It is not that patients do not have a right to travel, but that they do not have clarity on those rights. The existing court judgments state that they have a right to travel. While people are looking for concessions in negotiations, there is a general recognition on all member states that the ideal solution is to have a directive that codifies the existing rights, sets that down plainly and puts in place arrangements between the member states. If agreement was not possible, it would be a setback to that process. We would probably end up starting again, and considering that this is the second attempt, that would be a disappointment.

Will there be any plan of action by the Department to disseminate this information to the public domain? Will it be actively promoted?

Mr. Jim Breslin

There is an obligation to have information available. The provision of national contact points would be the responsibility of the Department. Prior to implementation, there is a project to be carried out to ensure that all the arrangements are in place. We would have to put all that in place, and then as the directive goes live, we will have to ensure that there is good information being put into the public domain.

I am very impressed by this very comprehensive debate. The clarification from the Department following on from our last meeting is very welcome. If there is agreement, the officials may let us know about it. If they want any further information from this committee, we will be glad to provide that as well.

I thank Mr. Breslin, Mr. McGovern and Ms Skelly for attending. It has been a very effective meeting, with much clarification provided.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.50 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 December 2009.
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