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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2022

European Court of Auditors: Discussion

Ar son an choiste, cuirim fáilte roimh Tony Murphy, Uachtarán an European Court of Auditors. Chomh maith leis sin, déanaim comhghairdeas leis as a cheapachán. Nuair a tháinig an nuacht amach bhíomar iontach sásta leis. Guím ádh mór air ar a aistear amach anseo. Chomh maith le Tony, cuirim fáilte roimh Brian Murphy agus Niamh Mahon.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

I call Mr. Murphy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. It is a pleasure finally to be here in person. I thank the Chairman for his best wishes and congratulations. It is an honour for me to be here as President of the European Court of Auditors. It is an honour as an auditor and an Irishman to be president of one of the seven EU institutions. It is great news for us all and shows how our education system and other things are appreciated on the broader EU spectrum. The purpose of our appearance is to give an overview of the work on our 2021 annual report and to give a flavour of some of the special reports that we produced during 2022 and that we will produce in the coming months, into 2023. I will give a quick overview of the key figures for the EU, I will concentrate on our annual report, I will flag some special reports which might be of interest and then I will speak about additional EU funding sources because, as we know, numerous sources are popping up all of the time that provide new challenges to us as auditors.

The revenue for the EU budget was almost €240 billion, of which Ireland contributed €3 billion. The biggest percentage of this €3 billion is in relation to the GNI contribution of about €1.9 billion. Expenditure totalled €181.5 billion. To put it into context, that is basically 1.3% of EU GNI or €400 for each EU citizen. On the expenditure included in this total, Ireland’s total contribution is around €2.7 billion. As we have pointed out before, we have been a net contributor in recent years. On the absorption of funds, some member states are having problems absorbing the funds that are available and we are talking about the European structural and investment funds, ESIF, in particular. These include the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, the European Social Fund, ESF, and the European agricultural guarantee fund, EAGF. As members can see, Ireland is top of the class and we have 81% absorption at the end of 2021, which is far above the average of 67%.

I ask Mr. Murphy to elaborate on that nice word from Brussels.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Absorption? This basically means-----

It is as if it is something that is just spent.

Mr. Tony Murphy

This means that the money available under the ESIF has been spent by the member state. Ireland has spent 81% of its allocation for the 2014 to 2020 multi-annual financial framework, MFF, period, so as I say it is more or less top of the class.

I will move on from the key figures to the 2021 annual report and the main findings we have. As was the case for many years, we gave a clean opinion on the reliability of the accounts. We also gave a clean opinion on the revenue but we would like to flag that when we talk about revenue we talk about the revenue which is booked. We are not covering things like the customs or VAT gap here; that is not included. We do not know what it is because the gap is there but it is potential revenue which has not been collected by the EU. For the first year we gave an opinion on the expenditure of the Resilience and Recovery Fund. For the third year in a row we are giving an adverse opinion on the expenditure for the EU budget. Again we see a slight increase to 3% from 2.7% in the previous year. The adverse opinion is a result of this error being across a substantial part of our audit population. The main finding we still show is that there are weaknesses in the control system that is in place, both at Commission and member state levels. These weaknesses result in errors not being detected. Our presentation shows our audit population for 2021. The two big spending areas, as ever, are natural resources and environment, which represent almost 40% of our audit population, or around €56.6 billion. Cohesion, resilience and values come in second at 33.5%, or almost €48 billion. If you take those together you are looking at almost 75% of the EU budget. The next biggest heading is Single Market, innovation and digital, which include research and development, and they were around 10% of the budget, or €14.3 billion. There is not much difference in the trends. Our audit population in 2020 was just above that level of €142 billion at almost €148 billion, so there was no great fluctuation between the two years in terms of the audit population.

We have an error rate for the budget as a whole of 3%, up from 2.7%.

Components of this come from the different policy areas. As can be seen, Single Market innovation and digital has increased to 4.4% but the trend generally is approximately 4% in this particular area. It is mainly related to research and development expenditure and errors in that domain. There was one outlier in 2018 when a new programme was starting. It was a very particular circumstance but, generally, if we look back over the years, it is approximately 4%.

Regarding cohesion funding, we see a slight increase from the previous year, up to 3.6%. This funding is always a problematic area for us because it is mainly cost reimbursement-based expenditure, which leads to this type of error level.

In natural resources and environment, we have said that we are around the materiality threshold which is 2%. This is mainly due to the fact that the vast bulk of this expenditure is direct payments and is entitlement-based. That means that the level of error generally tends to be lower. Similar types of error contribute to this error rate, including ineligible costs, ineligible projects, procurement and state aid. Lack of supporting documents has increased, mainly due to the pandemic. It was more difficult to obtain the relevant documentation. We hope to see that element decrease again. The main component is ineligible costs, which contribute approximately 40% to our error rates.

In the main policy areas, economic, territorial and social cohesion, the audit population, which I referred to earlier, is €48 billion. The error rate is 3.6% so it is affected by material error. We tested 243 transactions for this policy area and Ireland was part of the sample. This year, a number of projects in Ireland were sampled. As can be seen, they equate mainly with the table we showed on the previous page, where it is ineligible projects, infringement of internal market rules and, again, lack of supporting documentation.

Our conclusion in terms of cohesion funding, is that we can not rely on the Commission's figures. It has its own figures, based on the work of the audit authorities in the member states and its own control work. We have audited both of them and we find that we cannot fully rely on them. For instance we were trying a different approach to cohesion funding to reduce the administrative burden on final beneficiaries so we had agreed that we would audit the same transactions that the other authorities had audited. We are still finding error rates of 3.5% to 3.6% which is a bit disappointing, given that they have been through at least part of the control system.

For Ireland under this chapter, €188 million is a lot of money but, relatively speaking, it is quite a low element of the EU funding that we receive. There was a problem and it is highlighted in the annual report. It was not a quantified error but it was an error nonetheless. We saw that there were cases where Ireland was using one method to claim the money from the Commission and a different methodology to pay the beneficiary. Obviously, they should match. This related to the use of simplified cost options. These are not a silver bullet. We encourage them because it should result in fewer errors but we still find some. It definitely has the potential to reduce administrative workload and errors, which is what we all want. This is implemented either by applying flat rates or having standard scales of the units of cost.

The next chapter is the most important one, in terms of funding, at least for Ireland, which is natural resources. Our audit population was €56.6 billion. We are saying that we are around the materiality threshold of 2% at 1.8%. We decided not to say that it is definitively below because we have sources of information that suggest this is a real minimum and it is possibly higher. That is why we say it is close to materiality rather than definitively saying it is below.

As I said earlier, direct payments as a whole are generally free from material error. They are mainly entitlement-based and, therefore, they are less prone to error. Ireland receives the ninth highest amount among member states under this budget heading. We had one error that involved the over-declaration of an area, which led to a quantifiable error. The main sources of error for this particular policy area are again, ineligible beneficiaries, inaccurate information on areas, non-compliance with procurement or grant award rules and typically administrative errors.

Ireland does not normally feature very much as a named member state. However, this year we have a number of cases. I referred to the simplified cost options in chapter 6. Under revenue, Ireland was a sampled member state. As I said earlier, the revenue is based on what is booked and we say it is free from material error. Ireland was part of the system for examining the traditional own resources, TOR, accounting and management in three member states. Ireland, in addition to Italy and Sweden, was selected on the basis of the amount of customs duties collected and the risk assessment. No significant problems were identified but shortcomings included the way Ireland manages the recovery of outstanding customs debts and delays on the part of making recovered traditional own resources available to the EU budget.

Another important policy heading and one which is becoming more relevant and pertinent is migration and border management, security and defence. The budget is €3.2 billion. Ireland was sampled in this policy area and we had a quantifiable error, which is mentioned in box 7.1. It related to the provision of emergency accommodation through a procurement procedure for asylum seekers in hotels. We audited this procedure and we concluded that there were so many issues with it that we considered that it was 100% error. The Commission is now going to visit to determine how much, if any, should be recovered.

I do not want to open up a debate but I would like to flag something. Is the asylum seeker piece here separate to the moneys being spent on humanitarian efforts for Ukrainians?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes., there are other specific funds for that.

I will come back to that. I just wanted to clarify.

Mr. Tony Murphy

A novelty in our annual report this year and one that will become more and more important at least over the next three or four years is the Recovery and Resilience Facility, RRF. This is part of NextGeneration EU, which has a budget of €750 billion. The RRF is €672.5 billion. Because of the different delivery mechanism compared to the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, expenditure, we will issue a separate opinion on the legality and regularity of the spending under this facility.

We have a specific chapter in our annual report - chapter 10. We issued a clean opinion on the RRF related to one payment to Spain for €11.5 billion in December. The payment was made in respect of the achievement of 52 milestones. In disagreement with the Commission, we considered that one of these milestones relating to corporate income tax reform was not satisfactorily fulfilled. One of the issues we have with this facility is that it offers insufficient criteria for the milestone. Basically, if the milestone is not clearly defined, then the assessment by the Commission as to whether it is fulfilled can lead to different interpretations between us and them. Finally, there are some weaknesses in relation to----

What was the actual milestone? What was the reform that was being looked at?

Mr. Tony Murphy

This particular one was about bringing the overall corporation tax rate to a minimum of 15%. The Commission considered that this was a medium-term objective and we concurred with that. However, in that case it should not have been part of this milestone. It should have been a later milestone. We considered that this is not fulfilled at this point in time. That was the issue. To finish on the Spanish case, we were still able to say that there was a clean opinion because this was only one part of one milestone out of 52.

Perhaps to complete the picture, we could still have more problems in the 2022 report because the Commission has not put a methodology in place for how much should be retained if a milestone is not met. Instalments are based on different targets and milestones but there is no price tag for each individual element. It can therefore be difficult to assess the importance of one or more of them in the overall payment claim.

Another important part of our work, in which we have to use our professional scepticism, is when we come across suspected cases of fraud. We dealt with 15 such cases in our 2021 audits, the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF, has opened five investigations and another case has been reported to the European Public Prosecutor's Office, EPPO. We have streamlined the procedure and we now report cases simultaneously to OLAF and EPPO as we have a memorandum of understanding with both. The only cases that do not go to EPPO are those in which the member state is not a member of EPPO. There are a variety reasons for suspected fraud cases. I will put a figure on it. For our work in a ten year period, OLAF has recommended the recovery of €537 million relating to 43 cases.

I will wrap up on the annual report. We gave a clean opinion on the accounts and the recovery and resilience facility, RRF, expenditure although I have to say that is limited to the Commission's assessment that milestones and targets have been met. We still have an issue in ensuring the interests of the EU budget are protected subsequently which is an ongoing challenge. The level of error for payments is approximately 3% and the weaknesses in the control system remain. Our high-risk sub-population is 63% of our audit population and because of this being affected by a material level of error, we give an adverse opinion on the EU budget expenditure.

Our main product is our annual report and we have a treaty obligation to give a statement of assurance. In addition, we publish approximately 30 special reports per year and they cover a broad range of topics across different policy areas. The flag on the slide shows if Ireland was sampled or the report is relevant for Ireland. For instance in 2021 we published reports on long-term unemployment; CAP and climate; milk and dairy production; and a more general one on passenger rights. In 2022 we published reports on the procurement of vaccines against Covid-19, which was topical not so long ago; data in the CAP; European regional development fund, ERDF, support for SME competitiveness; and 5G roll-out in the EU. A report on gross national income, GNI, verification, which will be of interest, is ongoing and due to be published in December. Budget galaxy is a technical term. We are concerned that many different bodies are being set up outside the EU budget and examining whether there is an accountability gap, who is ensuring the accountability of these bodies and whether we should have a mandate for them. Audits of the climate targets and of the RRF control system are ongoing and the RRF will feature prominently in our work programme for the next few years. In the 2023 programme we are looking at energy union, rule of law in the EU, the CAP strategic plans, which are of interest to Ireland, and public procurement. These are general topics we will cover in 2023 and beyond.

I will move on to additional EU funding sources. As I said, the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, budget goes mostly to agriculture. We are also due to receive up to €915 million for the national recovery and resilience plan, NRRP, between 2021 and 2026. The first payment was due in the third quarter of 2022 but it has been slightly delayed and we do not know when it will be made. The plan comprises reforms and investment that cover three main priorities, namely advancing the green transition; accelerating and expanding digital reforms; and social and economic recovery and job creation. As I said, Ireland has not yet requested the pre-financing and its first instalment of €396 million was due in the third quarter but is now likely to be paid in 2023. Under the Brexit Adjustment Reserve, BAR, overall we will receive approximately €1.165 billion in grants between 2021 and 2025 to mitigate the adverse economic, social and territorial consequences of the UK withdrawal. The Commission approved a total of €920,400,000 pre-financing for Ireland that is payable in three instalments between 2021 and 2023. The first two instalments were received in December 2021 and May 2022 of €361 million and €277 million respectively. We are due to receive the final pre-financing payment of €282 million in 2023.

I will move on to an overview of Ireland in the Court of Auditors. Currently, 22 Irish staff members are working at the court. We are looking for a number of new seconded national experts from all member states so we hope we might get another Irish staff member. The Government's A Career for EU strategy aims to increase the number of people successfully applying for such positions and we are behind that action. Of the 22 staff members, four belong to the gaeilgeoir section. They are Irish translators and since 1 January all our documents are translated into Irish.

I thank committee members for their attention and we look forward to questions.

I thank Mr. Murphy. There is a lot of information in his presentation that the members and I are trying to digest. There are different rabbit holes we would like to go down. I appreciate the comprehensive presentation he gave. We will begin the discussion with Deputy Ó Murchú followed by Deputy Howlin.

I welcome the witnesses. It is good to see them in person. Comhghairdeas le Tony.

I will start with the 81% absorption rate. This State is way above the 67% average. Will Mr. Murphy explain why that is not closer to 100%, what the outworkings of that are, or where does the 19% go?

Mr. Tony Murphy

We are talking about the 2014-2020 MFF period and payments can be made for another three years, up to 2023. Payments are still in the process. The 19% is not gone.

Anyone who has been involved in any of the peace programmes will know that it always ends up being extended. Is that what we are dealing with?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is not an extension as such. This is very specific. If it is not spent by 2023 it will be de-committed and go back to the budget. I imagine-----

Does Mr. Murphy think it will be spent within that period?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It will be spent.

People are good at spending money.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I take the Deputy's point. Absorption is not an end in itself. It should be spent on something that adds value, not just spent for the sake of it.

Mr. Murphy spoke about the moneys that are sought back. Infringement of Internal Market rules is fairly straightforward. A lack of documents is always possible. How does ineligible expenditure happen? Does this relate to significant amounts or small amounts that add up to big money?

Mr. Tony Murphy

They can be big amounts. It depends on our samples. It is a monetary unit sample so we normally choose the larger payments. That is how it is done in order that we have coverage.

Does that ever fall into the fraud section?

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I stated earlier, we always have to be aware of the potential for fraud and under the auditing standards we use, we maintain a professional scepticism all the time.

Will members and witnesses check their systems? There seems to be some feedback.

Mr. Tony Murphy

If we think there is a potential fraud case, we pass it on to the experts because we do not want to compromise any future investigation. That is why we forward cases to EPPO and OLAF.

Outside of that, is some of this maladministration or what is it?

Mr. Tony Murphy

The errors could be maladministration or a misunderstanding of the rules. It is not fraud. For instance, the 3% includes where, perhaps not fraudulently but because of a misunderstanding, something has been claimed for under an operational programme that is not eligible under that programme. It sometimes relates to administrative capacity or competence as the Deputy says.

I imagine there is not a huge amount of that with this State.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I said, this is the first time we have had a couple of errors featuring, generally we do not feature specifically at all. I think our systems are quite good. This is a particular case in point but we would also have to take the context into account. It was a very difficult situation where they were trying to react very quickly. Even given that, there was a margin for error there but the process was so badly managed that we had to say it but it was exceptional that we would have a 100% quantifiable error. It is a long time since we have had something like that.

Mr. Murphy was talking about corporation tax. Why was that laid down as criteria? Was it specifically in relation to the RRF?

Mr. Tony Murphy

No, the thing with the RRF is that each member state has its own recovery plan, so this was a specific milestone that Spain agreed with the Commission. These plans are agreed on a case-by-case basis. It was not a general milestone for all of the member states; this was specifically for Spain..

It was with them. It was just that obviously, somebody was not paying a lot of attention and assumed this would get sorted. However, there were going to be huge difficulties dealing with this. Everybody knew that whatever about what has happened in the world since, there were issues even with regard to America coming on board.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I say, we are not the policymakers. This was a decision.

It was someone else's mistake. I get that, and the court caught it.

Mr. Tony Murphy

No, what I mean is that the Spanish authorities agreed to have this as a milestone in their first payment instalment. Then we come along and say that it was obvious it could not be done within that timeframe. The mistake was to put it in at that particular period. If it had been three years down the road, maybe that would have been fine. It is really a time issue.

No, I accept that.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Some of this would be coming from the whole European semester process, where the Commission is making specific recommendations to specific member states. This fed into the whole recovery plan process.

It is just someone being a bit more careful in relation to criteria, so you are not stringing yourself up.

Turning to the fraud, how exactly does it work when the Court sends it to OLAF and EPPO? What is the timeline? I think this is the same as I asked before. Where do the majority of these cases arise?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I would say it depends. We cannot say that 15 of them, for instance, are coming from one member state. It is fairly widespread. It needs to be remembered that we are only looking at something like 750 transactions altogether. It is quite a limited pool. Nonetheless, we had 15 cases.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes.

When talking about 43, then some of those are obviously legacy cases.

Mr. Tony Murphy

What we do is transmit them to OLAF and now to EPPO and they have their own procedures. They do a preliminary investigation. They decide whether there is enough evidence to go forward. They also prioritise cases depending on the resources they have and the relevant amounts involved. However, that is completely outside of our bailiwick. They have their own internal procedures.

Once it has been caught by the court, it is up to them to carry out an investigation.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes, and we are only one very small source for them. I think EPPO is going to produce its first annual report in February next year. It will be interesting to see how many cases there are, because a lot are coming from whistleblowing in the different member states. That is a bigger source than us. Ours is quite limited.

They are looking at a couple of big tranches of money in some of the cases. It is still a significant number that gets sent over but I imagine some of that is due diligence. Not all of them are necessarily cases of fraud.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I said, we sent 15 and we know five have been opened. That is one third. Whether the rest are eventually opened, we do not know. Some of them may be genuine cases but they have a threshold where they say basically it is just not worth their while in terms of investing time and money.

Mr. Murphy is hardly going to get into the detail of some of the reports and the work that is laid ahead. In the context we are currently in, you see the stuff in relation to the energy union and it obviously has a significant amount of importance. However, some of those reports relating to long-term unemployment and whatever, what sort of digging down is done across the European Union and beyond that, what are the outworkings of it? I suppose everyone has been in this scenario within parties and administrations where we have an awful lot of reports and we do not necessarily do what we should with them.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Particularly relating to employment, a lot of the areas we audit are national competencies in the first instance. That is what we have to acknowledge. The Commission has a limited role in terms of unemployment, for example, but there may be schemes that it part-funds.

It is literally looking at what European schemes are meant to address this, rather than a general report.

Mr. Tony Murphy

No, because we do not have a mandate for that. Our mandate relates to EU funds. We are following EU funds into different schemes and things where the member state has decided to fund particular schemes via the EU funds. The national issue would be for the Comptroller and Auditor General's office.

If talking about support of SMEs or whatever, would that be checking whether the European Regional Development Fund is check-listing good, bad or indifferent?

Mr. Tony Murphy

The role is limited. As I said, we have the budgetary figures we gave in the key figures. Basically, we are following the money.

Is there nothing wondrous to be said regarding the energy union?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Not yet. I think it is a bit early to say. I am sure the Commission would say that even next year is too early and we should wait and see how things develop. Energy obviously-----

Like the French Revolution, it is too early to tell the impact.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As the Deputy says, energy is very topical.

You can see it now even with what is happening here this week. We are only moving in the right direction, and probably all too slowly. It is something that needs to be addressed but I will not hold the witness responsible for it. Look, as per normal this is utterly comprehensive and that is me finished. I am sure I will think of an awkward question before the end.

I call Deputy Howlin.

I welcome Mr. Murphy and his team and congratulate him. It is a proud achievement for Ireland, as well as himself. I want to ask a few general questions and a few specifics that he may not be able to answer. I want to drill down as we did the last time we had a conversation about expenditure in Ireland. My first general question is, what is the consequence when the Court of Auditors comes to an adverse opinion? Often when we look at the commercial world auditors finding things seems to have no consequence. Is there a consequence in terms of additional scrutiny of a country, of a programme or of anybody being held to account? What exactly happens in terms of an adverse opinion?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Obviously, an adverse opinion is not a great result or the result that the Commission would like to have. In those terms, it puts more pressure on it. There is ongoing pressure on it to try to improve systems and decrease this. For each of the chapters we have gone through, cohesion or innovation, or natural resources is less problematic for them because they are in and around 2%. However, there is a discharge hearing with the Committee on Budgetary Control, CONT, of the European Parliament like the Committee of Public Accounts. The relevant Commissioner has to attend. Our report would be the main source of the interrogation.

Does the court attend those?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Absolutely. We attend as well, together with the Commission. We make our presentation and then the parliamentarians can ask questions of the Commission based on that. There is then a discharge resolution, which could recommend the Commission does certain things. Moreover, through the Council procedure there is also resolution there as well. Sometimes, they are even more demanding. If the Commission is not happy with something we say, they will say they agree with the court and want the Commission to try to follow that. There is some pressure and outcome from it.

In terms of the European Public Prosecutor's Office, how many member states are members of that now?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I think it is around 20 or 22.

How is it functioning with those countries that are not members yet?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is not, obviously.

How does the court react? How do you have a differentiation between-----

Mr. Tony Murphy

The differentiation for us, and we are not in the political game, is it is a choice for the member state to be a member of EPPO or not.

There were very valid reasons for Ireland decided not to become a member at the time because of the UK-----

Common law, yes.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I do not know whether that will change in the foreseeable future. That is obviously a political decision. For us the EPPO has its own mandate and in terms of the work we differentiate between EPPO and OLAF because the latter covers all the member states, whereas EPPO would only cover the affiliated member states. There is no difference for us and we have a memorandum of understanding and a working relationship with both. EPPO's office is across the road from us in Luxembourg, so we have good contact with it. In time, there will be a clearer demarcation of the types of cases EPPO will do compared with OLAF because EPPO has criminal investigative powers in the different states whereas OLAF does not have those direct powers. It is, therefore, a different set-up.

The reason I ask is that it seems to me to be an unsatisfactory arrangement if there are two different entities dealing with prosecution and the investigation of fraud.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes.

There might be a difference of understanding of its robustness, shall we say, one against another. It is obviously something the European Court of Auditors cannot have a view on-----

Mr. Tony Murphy

No.

-----but surely it would be better if every member was part of a single entity and that entity was the European prosecution office?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It makes perfect sense to have a harmonised approach across the Single Market. However, as I say, these are-----

They are outside Mr. Murphy's pay grade-----

Mr. Tony Murphy

Exactly.

-----which is a very high pay grade. On a related question, in terms of applicant countries, how does the European Court of Auditors operate? Applicant countries get significant funds.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes.

Does the court have the same access to procedures in those countries and the same powers to investigate the way money is spent, potential fraud and so on? Aligned to that, does EPPO have exactly the same functionality there?

Mr. Tony Murphy

In terms of EPPO, I imagine that is the case because we certainly do. As I said, we follow the EU funds so if they go to an accession country, we have the same access rights. General EU funding is conditional on the European Court of Auditors having access rights so I would say that is a given. Our only involvement with the accession countries would be in auditing the funds they expend. Other contacts would be, for instance, where we give or are asked for advice when accession countries are setting up an independent audit function such as an auditor general's office. They might look to us for support, guidance or maybe help in creating the institution because we are part of a community of audit offices across Europe.

Mr. Murphy has anticipated my next question. It seems to me that in some of the countries we visited that are now candidate countries, it would be necessary to have a robust internal audit system.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Absolutely.

Does the European Court of Auditors have sufficient resources to provide that sort of assistance, including seconded personnel?

Mr. Tony Murphy

We would not go that far. What tends to happen is that we would help with a peer review as part of a team. That might include us, the Dutch auditor general's office, for instance, and some others, so it would be a team, more or less. Our resources are obviously tight enough at the moment in that the RRF and Next Generation EU are taking up a lot of them. We asked for 18 more staff for next year and we have been given nine. Resources are a permanent battle, as the Deputy well knows, in that you are given additional responsibilities but not always the commensurate resources. We have to prioritise a little. We see ourselves as part of the audit community so where we can help, we do. We are very well established and in the long run it is helpful for us as well if there is a well functioning independent auditor general's office in an acceding member state.

I will move on to domestic expenditure and the Brexit adjustment reserve. It will not come as a surprise that the latter is a fund of particular interest to me. Mr. Murphy indicated in his report that €361.6 million had been drawn down in December 2021 and a further €276.7 million was drawn down in May of this year. Can Mr. Murphy give an indication of the particular projects that qualify for this funding or is it the case that these are just numbers to the court and it follows the expenditure post facto?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Under the normal expenditure, payment is paid on the basis of a claim of expenditure and there are underlying supporting documents and projects we can check on an ongoing basis. The Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, is, as the Deputy knows, a particular facility and the construction of the deal is that these payments are almost like pre-financing. They are instalments which are paid on given dates.

They are not exactly round figures.

Mr. Tony Murphy

No, they are not.

When Mr. Murphy says €361.6 million it looks as if it is for some purpose. How would the European Court of Auditors come to such an odd figure?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I do not know how the instalment figures were arrived at but basically there was a total figure of approximately €900 million, or whatever it was, in pre-financing was split into three. That is the figure given. One of the things we mentioned in our opinion on the BAR was that we saw a risk for the exact reason Deputy Howlin highlighted, namely, that we do not know what the expenditure is until the claim is made in September 2024. That is the first time we will see what projects relate to this money. It is like a payment in advance and not related to a specific expenditure.

The risk lies with the member state.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Absolutely.

Ultimately, if what is spent does not qualify, it is the member state that is at a loss.

Mr. Tony Murphy

This is exactly what we raised in our opinion. We said there was a risk exactly for that reason.

The European Court of Auditors has no notion of what particular projects have been applied for and are under construction to date. This is timelined and has to be spent by the end of 2024.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I agree. We do not know because this is a negotiation between the European Commission and the member state and we cannot go on potential projects that may or may not be included. We can only look at the projects when they are part of the physical claim we will receive in September 2024. That will be the first time that we can say that we have paid out €925 million, or whatever the figure is, and these are the projects deemed eligible by the member state. Then, depending on the assessment by the Commission, the balancing payment will be made. It will be one payment claim which will trigger the assessment of eligibility and also then the resulting balance to be paid.

I will ask a final question on that issue. Presumably somebody is determining that the projects are potentially valid. If it is not the European Court of Auditors, is it the European Commission itself that does this?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Absolutely. Ultimately, it has set the rules. We are not like a consultancy, if you like, ex ante.

If the Commission says "Yes" and the Court of Auditors ultimately says "No", it is fairly tough on the member state.

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is tough but that is the way it is, even with the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, expenditure. Operational programmes are approved by the Commission, signed in advance and set out the very specific measures that are eligible. That is the difference with the BAR. I fully agree with the Deputy but it is not for us to anticipate in advance and pre-clear projects that has not even been submitted in the first instance. That is a role for the Commission.

I warmly congratulate Mr. Murphy on his elevation. It is a victory not just for him personally but for his entire team and the country as a whole. It should be talked about loudly and widely.

I will dig into a couple of areas. They are more general but some follow on from a few of the areas raised by Deputy Howlin. The steady increase in error coming through over the past two years and expected for this year is a concern. I know Mr. Murphy's role is to audit and identify errors but there also has to be a question of how these errors are fixed. Do the systems themselves need to be addressed? I see this all the time at a much smaller level where people are applying for Erasmus+. The application system seems to have become steadily more complicated and unwieldily and involves more stakeholders and more room for error. The more people involved in engaging in a reporting facility or an application decision, the greater the scope for error.

I do not know if it is in the court’s remit or in Mr. Murphy's personal remit to advocate as to where these areas could be simplified to remove the scope for error. Is that a space the court would like to move into or is work being done, if not by the court, then by partners in the Commission, to try to nip out these errors at source rather than just looking at them steadily increasing?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is important to highlight that we find that, generally, towards the end of the programming period, the error rate tends to go up. Reference was made to absorption. There is more pressure to absorb the money towards the end, and that can lead to more mistakes, let us say. That is one element.

Deputy Richmond is right. We would advocate simplification where it is possible. What we find, although not necessarily in Ireland, is that in some member states the problem emanates more from the national member state. They gold-plate the rules and even go over and beyond what is required under the EU eligibility requirements. Once those rules are there, we have to take them into account, and sometimes they are much more demanding than the actual EU eligibility rules themselves.

We mentioned earlier the simplified cost options or lump sum payments, and we have been promoting them. As I said, the main source of errors is basically cost reimbursement. For example, we do not find very many errors with Erasmus grants because that is entitlement-based and is an amount calculated based on where a person is or how long they are going to be there. It is quite mathematical, like the direct payments under agriculture, which are entitlement-based.

This is where it becomes a little difficult. We do not want the Commission to go too far in terms of saying we do not want any eligibility requirements and we want them to basically be more performance-based. That is what they are trying to introduce with regard to CAP from 2023 so some parts of it are more performance-based, and it is basically the targets rather than the expenditure that is being checked, and if a country reaches a particular target, it gets the money. That is a bit of an issue we have with the recovery and resilience fund, RRF, at the moment.

Mr. Murphy has very conveniently mentioned the RRF, which is the subject of my next question. I have recently been at a couple of European conferences about RRF. Since it was established, the situation has changed greatly and the response we are seeing now from member states directly to the Commission is a desire for flexibility and a need for change. This will obviously create huge difficulties and problems for how to audit this process. What level of work is the court preparing for? What is the court putting across as to what is needed from its point of view to ensure that if the Commission is going into the realm of flexibility, it is still fit for purpose to be audited and to make sure it is done correctly?

Mr. Tony Murphy

These are political decisions and arrangements between the member states and the Commission. I can understand that the priorities of some member states are completely different from when the plans were initially drawn up. I would say that changing midstream is going to be difficult, just from a practical point of view, and we saw how long it took for the plans to be approved in the first place. We have already highlighted that we have issues in terms of knowing how much the value of each of these milestones and targets are met. That will be even more difficult now. If the costs stay the same and they change the milestones and targets, how do we match everything again?

In terms of flexibility and so on, we are all for that once we ensure that there is proper accountability and, ultimately, that these funds are protected, we minimise fraud and so on. It is a lot of money that is being put out there very quickly, which inherently means the risk of fraud and error increases.

The Deputy mentioned energy. We were asked for an opinion with regard to energy and REPowerEU, and they are talking about adding a chapter to the RRF plans from member states. Our opinion was very clear. We said that we have to react to this situation but we asked whether it is really the best way to react by splitting the limited money, which I think is around €200 billion, across all of the member states based on some allocation key which may or may not have any relevance to the actual energy needs in those member states, rather than concentrating on having some big cross-border projects which would have a significant impact on the energy supply in the EU. There are a lot of issues in terms of member states wanting to keep their own funding. Even within the RRF itself, there are very few cross-border projects involved and it is mainly another funding source for member states. The European Parliament's Committee on Budgetary Control, CONT, is going to Madrid in January to have a look at this because they want to ask the Spanish authorities where the money - the €11.5 billion they got in December - is. They got it for reforms, but where is it? Is this budget support or what is it?

We are at the very early stages of the RRF. It is going to be a very difficult area for us, as auditors, and a big challenge. As the Deputy said, we expect to have 17 or 18 payment claims this year and we already have payment claims in regard to the original plan and milestones. If we now start changing the plans midstream, I think it will be very complicated. I am not saying it is impossible but it will be very complicated.

I had a question in regard to Brexit, not the adjustment reserve fund, but in terms of the balance of payments from the UK. Obviously, that was part of the negotiations on what the divorce settlement, for want of a better word, was going to be. That needs to be audited as well and we need to continuously keep an eye on it. We know how much of the balance has been paid so far. Is there a timetable or a schedule of payments that we can expect and that can be analysed going forward?

Mr. Tony Murphy

There is a figure included in the accounts of the EU for the liability due from the UK and we would review that every year. Generally, the payments so far have been made completely in line with the negotiations at the start. There is a complete schedule of payments but the UK always has the option to pay off early, if it wants. If it wants to just clear the decks, it can do that as well. There are some revisions every year, depending on certain things, as Deputy Ó Murchú alluded to earlier. If there are decommitments, for instance, that obviously reduces the bill for the UK's share of those. It was based on the reste à liquider, another technical term, which is basically the commitments that have still to be spent. The UK share was based on those at a particular point in time. If they are not spent or if they do not subsequently materialise, obviously they have to be credited back. There are also annual adjustments in terms of pension liability and things like that. There is a little bit of movement, although not much, but the payment has basically gone down from €47.5 billion to €41.8 billion, and that is the figure at the end of 2021. So far, there is no issue in terms of the UK meeting its liability commitments, but it is over quite a long period and it will be there for quite some time.

Obviously, as that is in euro, there will always be currency fluctuations.

My final question is not a new question and I have asked it of Mr. Murphy before in various guises. It is not directly to do with his work but in regard to the EU and getting more Irish people working in the various institutions. I appreciate the court has had relative success, not just with the three witnesses as individual representations of it, but in terms of getting Irish people into the stage programme and into working in the court. I was wondering how the witnesses feed into the "team Ireland" strategy, which is being led by the Department of Foreign Affairs although it permeates through. There is increasing concern that we are about to hit a cliff edge of Irish people getting ready to retire from all of the institutions. How do we replace them in a number that will make sure we have that level of representation?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I fully agree with Deputy Richmond that this is a huge issue going forward. In general terms, Irish officials do very well in the institutions, which means they end up in quite high positions. As the Deputy says, the problem now is that many of them are coming to the end of their careers and will be retiring in the foreseeable future. While we do our best in terms of encouraging people to come to the Court of Auditors, the real priority has to be to get people into the Commission, where the policy is actually being shaped and made. We try to promote that in terms of going to colleges and so on.

I fully agree there may be room for more co-ordination. We are only a small fish in the whole picture. Nevertheless, however, sometimes we are making our own efforts and perhaps this could be better co-ordinated. There is always room for improvement in this regard. The EU jobs strategy was a good start, although it is mainly focused on public servants. We must also attract people from the private sector, through the equality and diversity, ED, programme. The increase in the number of bursaries for people going to the College of Europe has been a good development because this is also a good pathway into the EU institutions. Some good work is being done, therefore, but it is like what the Chair said earlier regarding the hours and the number of participants involved. The more participants involved, the more need there is to ensure ongoing coherent co-operation and people are not, for example, just doing the same thing two days later in the same place. There is always room for improvement and we are always open to it. I see this as part of my role. As the Irish member of the Court of Auditors, no less than as its President, I very much see it as part of our ambassadorial role to encourage young Irish people into the institutions, and not just into the court but to support the European project as a whole.

I have a few questions. Some of the members may like to come in as well. I thank Mr. Murphy for his contribution. The perception of auditors and accountants is that they look at and stick to the numbers. Now that he has anointed himself as an ambassador for all things, I will try to tempt him to get into crystal ball territory, although I know this will be difficult as well. I ask these questions against the backdrop of the energy crisis, unemployment risk, the post-pandemic situation, Russia's aggression and ongoing Brexit fallout. On the budgetary risks within the EU, and I am picking out several figures from the material I have, contingent liabilities have increased by 111% in 2021. We are moving into speculative territory regarding 2022 when we look at the 2021 report, but, for example, Ukraine, even before the war, having had outstanding loans with a nominal value of €4.7 billion, along with an EIB grant to the value of €2.1 billion. This was supported by an EU guarantee. This contingency risk also includes two other figures. The Support to Mitigate Unemployment Risks in an Emergency, SURE, scheme, amounts to €50.2 billion. I refer as well to the bonds in the context of Next Generation EU, NGEU, support in response to the pandemic as well.

All these inherent risks exist. Where does Mr. Murphy see the main risks coming from in future, at a finance level, without going into the reasons? I am thinking of our national situation, where we are dealing with an ongoing asylum issue as part of the response to the situation in Ukraine. People in my constituency are asking who is paying for this. I ask him to give us a wee bit of clarity around the contingency risks in this context. I am conscious as well that we are now a net contributor to the EU budget and, ultimately, we could all end up paying for many things. I would like his opinion concerning all these areas and then I will have a final question.

Mr. Tony Murphy

The Chair has raised an important issue regarding the contingent liabilities increasing. It is probably only going to increase further. Deputy Howlin asked me the last time I was before the committee whether I thought this borrowing frenzy, if we wish to call it that, would stop and whether it was a one-off situation. We have seen now, though, from all the latest developments that there is a general tendency to borrow on the market rather than to ask member states to increase their contributions.

Liz Truss might ultimately have an impact.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes. If we are talking about Ukraine, a decision will be made in the next few days and approximately another €18 billion will be loaned to that country to help with its current situation. As the Chair said, the current risk specifically concerns Ukraine being unable to repay its loans and this amounts to approximately €6.87 billion. This is one risk. Regarding the others, those are basically guaranteed by the member states. This is the bottom line. If the member states cannot pay this money, then there will be a huge problem for everybody. As the Chair said as well, we are all going to pay in proportion. It is something like our proportion of the GNI calculation, or whatever the context might be. We will all account for guaranteeing a certain percentage of the total. Despite all the problems referred to by the Chair and the issues we will have in future, with inflation and the cost of energy, etc., I hope member states will be solid enough and be able to ensure these loans do not materialise as real liabilities.

Turning to the asylum issue, the Chair is again right. There is the Asylum and Migration Integration Fund. We also have all these other funds coming from the EU budget. Every member state has a share of these funds to contribute as well. Basically, the EU is paying and this is done on a proportionate basis by member states. We highlight these figures just to show the risk exists. It should not be overstated. The banks are giving these loans because they think there is not really a risk of non-repayment. This is the hope and comfort we have. The figures are, however, becoming very large, as the Chair said. We have the SURE programme, which amounts to almost €100 billion. We also have the NGEU, and approximately half the €650 billion is in loans. This is a lot of money when we add it all up.

The other side of the coin is how effective the Commission will be in introducing these other own-resource revenue generating measures, such as the plastics tax, carbon tax, etc. The idea in this regard is that these initiatives will help to offset the liabilities as well, rather than going to the member states and asking them for a specific increase in contributions. Even though these measures are indirect contributions, there is always pressure for the member states not to be seen to have to pay more for being a member.

This is why we mentioned the budget galaxy concept earlier. This is also a way of keeping different areas outside the EU budget, even though the member states are all funding these things. They are not, however, parts of the EU budget. This is why we are looking at this as an audit that will be published. We call it the budget galaxy because we have the main EU budget and then we have all these satellites around it, which are ad hoc arrangements involving all the member states or a selection of member states. If we were to look at the real cost of all these programmes for the member states, it would be necessary to add all these costs up. It is a complex set-up and environment.

I thank Mr. Murphy. Regarding migration and border management, he highlighted some concerns around that fund. Was this a general concern for all member states or was there something specific about Ireland in this regard? I refer to the figure of €3.2 billion.

Mr. Tony Murphy

The €3.2 billion is the budget for this policy area in the MFF. This is the total amount. As I said, we had one case in Ireland with the hotels in the context of the procurement of services, where there was procurement for asylum seekers which we had-----

Is Mr. Murphy allowed to go into the detail?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Basically, there was a procurement procedure where we consider there were all sorts of errors manifest in how the process was handled and changed as it was under way. The important thing with procurement is that there must be equal treatment and everyone must have the same chance. The rules cannot be changed halfway through a process. Equally, regarding eligibility, some hotels were excluded that were eligible and some included that were not. The whole process, therefore, was a bit of a mess. We would not like to pre-empt anything, however. We have signalled that, in our view, this is an error. Representatives of the Commission will now come to Ireland and look at this process in more detail. They will then decide on whatever has to be repaid, if anything.

Okay. That is the asylum issue. The asylum and humanitarian response are happening side-by-side. While this procurement issue is being investigated, is there also a focus on a humanitarian response?

I appreciate that in terms of the humanitarian response to Ukraine, citizens arrive in Citywest and things need to be done quickly. Is the same scrutiny being given to the procurement process for the humanitarian response as is being given to the asylum response?

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes, if it falls within the sample. The Commission has an obligation to make sure all these funds are being spent properly. This just happened to come up in our random sample. As I said, we do a sample of 750 transactions and this happened to be one of them. Migration accounts for €3.2 billion, which means it is quite small in terms of the overall MFF. We looked at only 28 or 30 transactions in total and a couple of them were in Ireland. Unfortunately, the case in question was the one we have been discussing.

In terms of the humanitarian response, we also do a number of non-financial audits of how migration is being handled in member states, including the processing of migrants, etc. I remember we did one some years ago on migration hot spots in Italy and Greece. We went to those locations to see how and if the systems were working. There are two aspects, one being financial compliance and the other relating to the systems in place for the processing or returning of emigrants, including, for example, the deal with Turkey. We look at all those types of things as well.

This is an area in which we can learn much. We only have to look across to the situation in the UK, which could be seen as an example of what not to do in certain areas. Even in my own parish, last Monday night, 15 coaches arrived that included eight young Ukrainian lads as part of a larger group. There is still goodwill and a willingness to do the right thing. However, there are many things we could do better in terms of involving communities at an earlier stage. If we were to do that, we could have an even bigger response. Invariably, what happens is that there are pressure points, with population buildup in one particular community, which leads to a narrative around pressure on school places and all of that. Communities know best how to handle their own responses, which is what is happening in a good way all over the country. I realise it is about numbers and the need for an immediate response to the emergency. However, I would appreciate if there were some way of feeding back that message about learning lessons from other countries. As Chairman of this committee, I cannot speak on behalf of the country but I certainly can see the value of that approach in my community in terms of people wanting to respond in a positive way.

There is no reference to the trans-European transport network, TEN-T, in Mr. Murphy's submission but there is a nice photograph of roads, which I was excited to see. Deputy Howlin does not have to worry about these things any more in the south east, where there are many great roads. However, my colleague, Deputy Harkin, and I live in the north west. Delivery of the TEN-T is not specifically relevant on the way up to Sligo but for the twin towns bypass on the Letterkenny-Lifford Road linking into the A5, these are game-changing moments. From an accountancy point of view, we are talking about Ireland being a contributor to the EU. The north west has massive potential to become a net contributor to the overall economy in this country but one of the big obstacles is road infrastructure. All of the due diligence and the preparatory, investigative and exploratory work in preparing for TEN-T has been done. All those boxes have been ticked. Is the EU still committed to developing the regions that still need to be developed, particularly in terms of roads policy? We have a whole new green agenda, which is right. It is good to have public transportation but for a place like the north west, where we do not have rail services or alternatives, the road is the only option for us at the moment. Is the commitment to connectivity through TEN-T projects still there? I realise this is a specific area and Mr. Murphy may not want to get into it.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I will first answer the question on migration. We have an opportunity to look at the situation in a few different member states and highlight aspects that are good or bad. We are in a good position in that regard. We plan to do a special report on integration of migrants in the EU but that will take some time. We will look at that as a topic, not the financial aspects but more in terms of what I was talking about before. We will consider whether the projects funded by the Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund are efficient and are achieving the intended integration as an output.

Regarding roads, the issue is that it is a matter of national competence as to which projects are delivered. I referred earlier to the golden era in which we were getting a lot of money, when we were not net contributors and we were catching up through cohesion funding. That was when a lot of the roads were built. As I said, the funding from that source is now very limited, at €188 million. There is not a big amount of funding available. I do not know whether the project to which the Chairman referred was considered as a potential project under the Recovery and Resilience Facility plan. There are a number of options. One of the projects, for instance, relates to a rail service in Cork. Some infrastructural projects were included as specific investment projects under the national recovery and resilience plan, RRRP, for Ireland. I hope the Chairman gets that road and that we get to audit the EU contribution to the project.

In fairness, the project is prioritised at a national level and, all going well, it will be the next one on the list. However, it would be good to have assurance there is still a commitment at EU level to roads policy, especially in areas in which there is very poor connectivity.

Mr. Tony Murphy

TEN-T is still a big issue within the Commission and there still is a big push on it. I spoke earlier about the lack of cross-border projects. TEN-T was a good example of action in that regard because it was trying to put in a structure that was not just based on the national need but on the delivery of corridors through Europe. The project the Chairman referenced is a good example of a cross-border project whereby co-operation can ensure a coherent approach to infrastructure delivery.

In the past, some very clever and astute civil servants looked at the delivery of Belfast-Cork cross-Border infrastructure and a lot of money went into Dublin-Cork projects. Deputy Harkin will know about this from her time in the European Parliament. There is a great opportunity, especially at a time when Brexit has done so much damage to the peace process, to look at those acute corridors right on the Border and to show communities there is a dividend from the peace process and that, ultimately, the European project is about peace. That was the genesis of it. I thank Mr. Murphy for his responses.

I apologise for being late but we in the Independent Group put down a Private Members' motion for debate in the Dáil this morning. I really should still be in the Chamber. I am in and out of the meeting and have missed most of it. On the Chairman's point about the TEN-T, I will never forget the meeting of the European Affairs committee at which the Minister at the time - whom I will not name, although I well remember the name - was going to Brussels the following week and I asked him about these TEN-T projects. Mr. Murphy is right that at that point, the Government was looking at road and rail services from Cork to Belfast via Dublin. I remember asking whether consideration would be given to at least one of those routes running up the west coast. There was almost laughter in the place. Fortunately, we have changed that to the extent that when we speak of balanced regional development, it is finally beginning, at least on paper, to mean something.

As I said, I missed most of the meat and potatoes of the discussion today. However, I want to make a point about the value of the European Court of Auditors. As Mr. Murphy noted, we are now contributors to the EU. Even when we were not, most people like to think public money is well spent or at least that somebody is overseeing or auditing how that money is spent.

On the other hand, it is my experience that when one talks to small community groups and other groups that are accessing funding, they complain bitterly about the amount of red tape. It is a matter of finding the sweet spot between those two where funding is still accessible but that also there is full accountability for how it is spent. That money is taxpayers' money. It does not appear out of nowhere. In Brussels, there is not a money making machine even though for many years people thought there was. It is our money, it is Italian money and it is Estonian money. It is all citizens' money that finds its way there. That point of the role of the Court of Auditors, what it does and how it protects people's hard-earned tax money perhaps needs to be made strongly.

I can also remember, year after year, in the Parliament we as MEPs had to vote on the budget. One had people shouting about the fact that there was material error, there was this and there was that. Does one vote for it? One cannot vote against it. It was always an issue. In that context, I suppose my question is quite general. Mr. Murphy is the person who has experience. This is something we come to once a year quickly in the middle of many other issues but Mr. Murphy's job and the job of the Court of Auditors is to look at this year on year, see where the problems and the bottlenecks are, and come forward with proposals to simplify. I note the Court of Auditors has done that with its simplified cost options. They were certainly the big thing a few years back when I was a Member of the European Parliament. I heard Mr. Murphy saying that they work reasonably well but he gave an example of where there was an error in Ireland. Mr. Murphy stated there were cases where Ireland used a different method when working with the Commission. I would like if Mr. Murphy could tease that out a little and say why that happened and what was the reason for it. That is merely a small part of the overall question. Overall, in Mr. Murphy's experience what changes would be useful, not only with his auditor's hat although he always wears it but from the wider perspective, as I said, that of the community group, the LEADER group or the guy in north Leitrim out on his land who will be looking to see what entitlements he will have under areas of natural constraint, ANC, basic income support for sustainability, BISS or whatever that are applying? Will Mr. Murphy link that to the Court of Auditors' job as guardian of public money and make that pathway as smooth as possible? What is Mr. Murphy's overall perspective on that?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I thank Deputy Harkin. The Deputy raises the perennial bugbear, if you like, in terms of ensuring accessibility to EU funding and reducing the administrative burden and the bureaucracy on the beneficiary. As an auditor and also as a normal taxpayer, I would be completely in favour of that.

On some of the issues arising, we had the discussion earlier. I know the Deputy missed it. We are there basically to see how the rules which have been prescribed by the Commission or the national states are being adhered to. We do not make the rules in the first instance. We are there to check, as the Deputy says, compliance with the rules.

We are always promoting simplification. Simplified cost options, SCOs, was a big thing for a while. I refer to lump-sum payments and all that sort of thing. They are talking about going down the road of having an agreed budget in advance - it is only a pilot in research and development - and then if the research is delivered, they get the budget and that is it. The scope for error there is almost gone. They are continually looking at ways of doing this.

We also mentioned earlier - I am not saying it is a particular issue here in Ireland - that in some member states we have an issue of gold-plating where, basically, on top of the EU rules, the member states add their own rules. I can understand that sometimes they want to make sure that they are bullet-proof in terms of not having problems down the line and having recovery demands from the EU, but sometimes they go even beyond what the EU requirements are. We are always signalling that as well because once there are national rules on top of the EU rules, we also have to make sure that they are respected as well. That causes some issues for us also.

In terms of the particular case the Deputy mentioned, the SCO, what happened was that, between one party, I think, it was the member state, therefore, Ireland, and the beneficiary, it was a cost reimbursement. They, basically, did the cost reimbursement as usual but the claim to the Commission was based on a simplified cost option, which was not the same amount. I do not know why. It was blended. One did not have either cost reimbursement or SCO. One had a mixture of the two. Obviously, the two amounts should match. That was the problem there. There was a mismatch between the amounts. As I say, however, this we considered to be more of a system issue because at the end it was not material enough to be quantified. There will be no recovery or anything like that. We merely raised the issue that they have to pay more attention-----

And not do it again.

Mr. Tony Murphy

-----and not do it again.

As I say, we are always in favour of simplification. We understand it is difficult. There are many schemes that are different and one also has turnover of staff who are involved which also can bring a different dynamic to the whole thing. They may have a different interpretation of the rules or whatever it might be. It is a complex area.

As we said earlier here, we do not find that many problems in Ireland in our sample. Okay, it is a small sample because, relatively speaking, the EU funds are quite small and most of it goes in under the "natural resources" headings, and most of it is direct payments. There again, there is another issue where, because it is entitlement based, it is not cost reimbursement, which, inherently, for us, is less risky and less prone to error. We have to get the balance right because if the Commission, as was mentioned here earlier in the meeting, in the CAP from 2023 wants to go down some performance-related-----

That is correct, results based.

Mr. Tony Murphy

-----results based route, there again one is moving away from cost reimbursement because what one is saying then is that one has an agreement amount and if one achieves the results, one is entitled to the money. In a way, it is almost entitlement-based as well.

It is not only the same old same old, although I have to say that if I was reading it I would not be surprised that we have the same type of errors year after year - ineligible cost. It is the same thing, despite the fact that we make recommendations and the Commission is continually trying to educate or train the relevant audit authorities in the member states. That is also an issue, probably not here. In some member states, they have significant issues in terms of the administrative capacity, competence and turnover of staff. That is a contributing factor to the general problem we have in terms of errors. I am not saying it is the case here.

We have 3% errors. Cohesion generally is an area where, because it is mainly cost reimbursement, we find many errors. As I explained earlier, here it is a little disappointing that we have an error rate of 3.6% because we are auditing transactions which have already been audited by the audit authorities. We were trying to go down the attestation route where we could rely on the work of the auditor authorities because we wanted to reduce the administrative burden so that there were not four or five sets of auditors turning up at some beneficiary such as some guy in Leitrim where he is getting a visit from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, a visit from the European Commission and a visit from the Court of Auditors. That is what we are trying to avoid but it is disappointing nonetheless that we still have an error rate of 3.6% on transactions which, in theory at least, have been through the control system.

Mr. Murphy mentioned "gold-plating".

Mr. Tony Murphy

The Deputy has heard that before.

Mr. Murphy would want to talk to some of the farmers in Leitrim. They will tell him what they think of gold-plating. I understand this, having stood in the middle to some extent. I will not call it "gold-plating". Whatever it is, it probably contributes to the fact that material errors in that area of agriculture largely are quite low. However, as Mr. Murphy says, there are other reasons for that as well.

On the idea of a results-based approach, it sounds good on one level but, on another, a benchmark is needed to start with. How objective is it going to be? Is Mr. Murphy's objectivity the same as the objectivity of the person assessing this? If it is box-ticking, that may be a little easier; if a blade of grass grows 3 cm or a piece of red clover grows 3 cm instead of 2.999 cm, that is acceptable. Although in ways it sounds attractive, in other ways it is a minefield. That is for another meeting, not for today.

Mr. Tony Murphy

That is not for today, but I agree. As auditors, it is going to be a different challenge. The first thing, as the Deputy rightly said, is the benchmark. One can easily set a low benchmark and then the money is a given; that is what I was talking about earlier. We need to get the balance right. It is all very well going down the performance-based route but there must be something on the other hand that ensures added value from the money as well and that it is not just a subsidy. I fully agree. It could be almost more difficult in terms of judgment, unless the framework is very clearly set up from the beginning, you are getting into judgement issues. The beneficiary could have one view, the Commission could have another and even we could have another view.

The departmental inspector could have another view.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Exactly. In theory, as the Deputy said, it sounds wonderful, but it may not be the silver bullet everyone is hoping for.

I did not read the special report on the procurement of vaccines. Was this discussed earlier?

Mr. Tony Murphy

No.

Are there any lessons from that? I did not read it; I should not have the temerity to ask without having read it first, but Mr. Murphy knows what politicians are like.

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is very topical. There were some teething problems with the whole procedure. Like the migration issue we discussed earlier, it was done in a crisis situation. It was not normal. It showed one of the benefits of the EU in that there was a co-ordinated approach to the procurement of vaccines, which was probably much more effective and efficient than if each member state had gone on its own. It is one of the benefits that should perhaps be heralded more. These benefits show that beyond whether a member state is a net contributor, there are all sorts of issues that are beneficial to member states by being part of the club, if one wants to call it that.

I will make a comment on Mr. Murphy's last statement because, as a practising politician and somebody who has held executive office, there is a certain coldness about an audit ex post facto of decisions that were made in the middle of a crisis. There is some controversy about the procurement of respirators in Ireland, for example, and across Europe. Had we needed them, it would have been a much bigger crisis. We need to temper the cold audit in the light of the exigencies that faced decision -makers at the time on all of these matters.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I agree. We are talking about two completely different scenarios. It is reactionary and it has to be done. It is an early lesson I had from one of the health boards when I was with the chief executive and I was telling him we should this and we should do that and he said, "Look Tony, that is all very good, but my priority is those patients that are sitting in the waiting room". He was right. If I was the patient in the waiting room, I would not be waiting for the bureaucracy and everything else to be followed. I understand.

We looked, like every country, for PPE throughout the world at the beginning of the crisis. Should we have drilled deeper into some of the procurement decisions we made? Yes, but if we had not gotten the PPE and people were dying for want of it, there would be a different and much more serious set of questions to be answered.

On that note, gabhaim buíochas le Tony Murphy as an phlé, as an chaint phoiblí agus as an eolas agus sonraí cuimsitheacha agus suntasacha. I thank Mr. Murphy who has given us a lot of information. I thank his colleagues for attending as well. As always, we appreciate the time they have given us. We wish Mr. Murphy well in his new role. I recall an MEP, whom I will not name, in congratulating him saying, "It was great to see a man from a working-class background with no political associations". Mr. Murphy has worked hard over the years and he is a great ambassador not only for the EU but also this country. We thank him for everything.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. until 11.15 a.m. Wednesday, 24 November 2022.
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