Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 2022

Opportunities within the European Union for Irish People: Discussion

Chairman

Cuirim fáilte roimh an tOllamh John O'Brennan; Jean Monnet chair of European integration at Maynooth University, Ollscoil Mhá Nuad, go dtí an cruinniú. Táimid ag dúil go mór leis an díospóireacht agus amharc a thabhairt ar na bealaí agus na deiseanna difriúla atá ann fá choinne na daoine óga, ní hamháin sna meánscoileanna ach sna bunscoileanna fosta. Beimid ag amharc ar na deiseanna fostaíochta san Eoraip, i Strasbourg, i Lucsamburg agus sa Bhruiséil. I welcome Professor O'Brennan to this discussion today on opportunities not just for young people but any Irish people looking at career paths or career change opportunities within the European Union.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity the witness will be directed to discontinue. It is imperative that any such direction is complied with.

I remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. We know the drill now and we know the rules around that. I call Professor O'Brennan who is in his 15th year in Maynooth university to make his opening statement.

Professor John O'Brennan

I thank the committee for the invitation to address the committee. It is a very good time to be having this conversation as we approach the 50th anniversary of Irish accession to the European Union. We should acknowledge that we have had some extraordinary people represent us in the EU at both the political and administrative levels. The hard work put in by Irish officials away from the limelight across EU spaces over these decades has contributed much to helping Ireland punch above its weight at EU level. We are all more than aware of the issue regarding numbers. Ireland faces a collapse in the number of our nationals working in the EU institutions, almost unprecedented in scale over the 50 years of our membership. I suggest we have a short-term to medium-term challenge in how we turn that recruitment problem around. It is also connected crucially to the broader issue of how we communicate the idea of Europe, both within our society and in particular within secondary schools and the third level system. There is much that could be done in these spaces to help achieve the narrow aim of better levels of recruitment and the broader one about communicating the idea of Europe.

We are facing a cliff edge, with more than a third of Irish officials expected to retire by 2025, while we have simply failed to keep up with a level of recruitment of younger Irish people over the past decade. Since 2015, only 22 Irish nationals have passed the EU’s Concours examination. That is far below the 69 officials who are expected to retire formally before 2025. There is a big imbalance there and it is a looming problem. While the reasons for this are not straightforward, everybody accepts that it is a problem for Ireland in how we conduct business in Brussels and defend our interests in different EU spaces.

The Government has been conscious of this for some time. Last year a new strategy called A Career for EU was produced, which was very welcome. It had many positive elements within it including the prospective expansion of the existing third level-focused EU jobs campaign and the intention to also roll that out into secondary schools, which could be very important. Other elements are the inclusion of Northern Ireland academic institutions as key partners here and a new EU stream to be introduced into the Civil Service. All of these things are potentially very useful. However, there are also concerns about the strategies' effectiveness.

In the 1970s the University of Limerick was a pioneer in offering European studies. Over a long period we managed to expand the number of courses on offer that touched on Europe in different respects be it in economics, law, political science, sociology or other disciplines. There is a growing crisis in European studies, in particular. We now have only two remaining courses in European studies in Ireland. One of them is at Trinity College and the other is at the University of Limerick. While in some ways there has been success in mainstreaming Europe into different programmes I regret the absence from university curricula of dedicated European studies programmes, especially those that had a language component. Whatever we are going to do into the future I would hope that the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is included as a key partner in developing strategies to address the recruitment issue.

Up to now, the Government’s approach to recruitment has been limited to an annual road show where the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs toured the universities every spring and talked to graduates about the potential for pursuing a career at EU level. There was very little beyond that. Although the A Career for EU strategy will help to improve things, there is a lot more we could do. A problem with the strategy is that it envisages going through the careers' offices in universities rather than through academics like myself who are actually working at the coal face of Europe. We think it would be much better if the strategy, as it pertains to the universities and third level institutions, went through the academics who, in one way or another, are doing Europe as part of their day jobs. We are the people who are in touch with civil servants, diplomats and with others who have the potential to make a difference. I do not think there is any lack of willingness among academics to help. Early on, we should be helping to identify really talented undergraduates who look like they have the potential for, and the interest in, European affairs. The simple fact is they now have lots of options open to them in their careers and one of the reasons we are struggling to identify people who might end up in European institutions is that we are not offering the early mentoring they need. If they had this mentoring it might mean that they would really take Europe seriously.

Chairman

I commend Professor O'Brennan on going off script a little on that point. Does each university have an equivalent to the department of sociology in Maynooth?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I am not sure how it would work.

Professor John O'Brennan

I simply mean that every university would have at least one academic who, as part of their duties, would seek to mentor students who demonstrated real aptitude, regardless of what discipline they were studying.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

How would that come about? How would they find each other?

Professor John O'Brennan

By contact between the different academic units in the university; from first year on we would be looking to identify people to fast track.

We could do other things together. I propose we bring four, five or six of the graduates from each university together in Dublin for a few days a year to introduce them to some of the best expertise available on the European Union. We could introduce them to this committee and to some of the officials who work closely with Europe. Later in my opening statement, the committee will see that I think we should be doing more. We should not only be identifying students but bringing them to Brussels on a regular basis and not only university students, there is also a place in this for secondary schools. For example, I saw that the post-primary school I attended in Maynooth brought its transition year class to Brussels for a week. It is our experience that nothing turns students onto the idea of Europe more than being present in Brussels and meeting our MEPs. We have had the privilege of meeting Deputy Harkin and her colleagues on many occasions over the years. All the feedback we get from students is that they can begin to picture themselves working in the European Parliament, for the Commission or in those spaces. It ceases being an abstract thing and becomes something real.

Chairman

Professor O'Brennan has quite a long speech and there is a lot of good stuff in it. If it is okay with Professor O'Brennan, it might be better that members interrupt rather than the committee moving to staged questions.

Professor John O'Brennan

Absolutely.

Chairman

Let us imagine I am a secondary school student who is not doing the leaving certificate but coming out of junior cycle. I am in transition year and do not know where I want to go or what I want to do. Perhaps I will study for an arts degree in economics. I arrive in first year in Maynooth and I still do not know what career path I want to follow. Should I be targeted or should information sessions about opportunities in Europe be provided at an early stage, once I arrive in university? Should we reach out to secondary schools or career guidance teachers? How can we - Professor O'Brennan used the word "mentor" - how can we identify students? Perhaps Professor O'Brennan will say a bit more about that process.

Professor John O'Brennan

This begins in secondary school. Even in primary school there is a good programme called the blue star programme, which has been in place for quite a long time and does good work. It has been absent from secondary schools but things have changed. The introduction of the politics and society programme at leaving certificate level is a fantastic development. There is a good European component built into the curriculum and some schools are organising the kind of trips I talked about. In years to come I expect many more schools to be engaged in taking on politics and society. It started as a pilot programme and it has been extended. If we could start there and help the teachers who are teaching the politics and society programme, for example by subsidising the kind of field trips to Brussels I talked about, we would go a long way to encouraging those students to think about doing a university course that would forward their ambitions to take on an international role and to consider applying for the concours. It does not begin with the universities. We must begin at second level and build from there.

Deputy Neale Richmond

Specifically on that point, as Professor O'Brennan is aware, I worked on the blue star programme for the first five years of its creation and it is a lovely programme. I am going to visit a blue star school on Monday. It is the national school I attended. I know Deputy Howlin has spoken to schools and Deputy Harkin definitely has. I have visited schools Deputy Harkin has spoken to. It is great. The only programme in existence for secondary schools is the EUROSCOLA programme which is funded by the Michael Sweetman Education Trust. It is open to those studying for the leaving certificate applied programme so it is a bit different. It culminates in a week in Strasbourg for the winning children and teachers. There is a difference between the EU awareness produced by the blue star programme and moving on to EU careers which we are discussing today.

The great question when we talk about secondary school subjects is how they apply to further study and, more importantly, the workplace. The challenge is to get the notion of jobs in Europe into secondary schools via the new politics course, but also via elements of every course. As someone who wanted to work in Europe, I know there was no information about it and no awareness of it. It was seen as distant and if people were not fluent in French, it was not for them and we all know that is not necessarily true.

Professor O'Brennan mentioned working with the relevant teachers and guidance counsellors, but among the great untapped areas are the European Youth Parliament and model United Nations for young students who show an aptitude outside the classroom for the kind of skills that lend themselves to careers in the European institutions, wider civil service, NGOs and public policy positions . These extracurricular opportunities rely on the strength of the student participants and that is great but it is only for a year or two at a time. They move on to whatever else at that point. We need a formalised setting such as the university visits Professor O'Brennan mentioned of the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs. What can be done at second level? MEPs and Oireachtas Members go to blue star schools at a national school level, which is great, but how do we then do that at second level because it is not only about the subject but about driving the message that this is a career path for people?

We see a lot of work on girls in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, subjects. The Chair did a lot of work on that in my constituency with some of the big tech companies when he was Minister for Education and Skills. It is key to plant the seeds at the age of 15, 16 or 17 that this is an extremely accessible career path rather than people saying at 24 this is beyond them because they are not fluent in French. It has always been more difficult at second level than at national school level because the subjects are different. The key is not necessarily in the classroom but in the extracurricular activities for which there are clear structures but they need to be backed up by permanent operatives, for want of a better word.

Professor John O'Brennan

The introduction of politics and society at second level is a game-changer. Much can be done in the format. Approximately one third of the curriculum is devoted to Europe and the curriculum was finely judged in the way it was put together. We were impressed with it. We have ongoing contact with teachers. We invite our local schools to all the events we run on Europe and they have come to a lot of them. We had huge attendance a few weeks ago when President Zelenskyy addressed all Irish students through the universities. We brought the local post-primary school students in. We could work with the teachers' representative organisations. They have been active in soliciting support from the universities for particular parts of the curriculum to help them deliver the course. They could be the key contacts rather than careers and guidance counsellors, not only to build the sense of connection to Europe but also in the narrower sense that Deputy Richmond is suggesting, of steering students towards applying for posts in the Commission and potentially in other institutions. It can be done if they are the key interlocutors at second level.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I imagine there will be a fair bit of agreement about this. Secondary school matters as at the ages of 15, 16 and 17 people are considering jobs and possibilities. Everyone will buy into the idea of making people aware of or almost conditioning them to this. Professor O'Brennan spoke about later, in universities, having staff set up on some level as talent spotters, for want of a better term. The politics class makes it easy as there is a crossover. Who has made trips recently? Are they politics classes or people in transition year? Is some of this ad hoc stuff organised by MEPs who can bring delegations over? Do we need to do that in a more organised fashion? Is that what we are talking about?

Professor John O'Brennan

It depends whether the school in question has a politics and society curriculum. The number of schools in which it is being offered is increasing all the time. It is only about five years or so in existence.

It depends, to some extent on the initiative of the teachers involved, and some are committed in different ways. In some cases it is about relationships that are established with MEPs and other groups that facilitate this. I do not think there is any one path through which it takes place. There is also probably a class issue in that some schools are just better positioned to be able to afford to bring their students. This is why I suggest the Government should provide a subsidy as much as possible to try to subvent particularly poorer households where their children might otherwise not get a chance.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The professor made a great point because both Deputy Richmond and myself have spoken about our involvement in the Conference on the Future of Europe. However, the term used is that there is an element of it being the European middle class on tour. As good an idea as that engagement with citizens is, a significant cohort of people are left out of that whole equation. It is something that needs to be done in politics across the board, but Europe is further away so it is more expensive to get there.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I thank Professor O'Brennan and it is good to see him again. As he said he has been to Brussels a number of times and I have made my way to Maynooth as well for various meetings. One of his proposals was about a visit to the battlefields of World War One. I fully sponsored a programme called "My Adopted Soldier." RTE covered it. There were two half-hour programmes. It was one of the best things I ever did as an MEP. All I had to do was provide the money. The History Teachers' Association of Ireland had a competition and one student was selected from each of the 32 counties. They adopted a soldier from their own county who went to fight in World War One and who never came back. They really delved into it and it was a tremendous success. They went to Áras an Uachtaráin before they left. We launched it from Collins Barracks. Two years later we had a slightly different approach. We had half of the students from Ireland and half of the students from Germany. I got a German MEP to fund a number of students to come so they could see both sides of the story. Without a doubt it was one of the best things I ever did. That kind of well structured programme is useful because it gives students a sense of history and of why we have an EU, where it has come from and what value they might see in it.

Professor O'Brennan talked about 15,000 per school per year. In all honesty I am not sure any government is going to do that. It may, and I very much agree that this can be seen as middle class and we end up talking to ourselves. I have been to too many meetings where that happens. It has to be done on a specific class basis, and not picking out the best or the brightest because they will find their own way. Maybe there could be a lottery or something from interested schools. I do not know, but it should not just be based on those who write the best essay because many of them will find their own pathway.

Finally, when I was an MEP many people contacted me looking me for work and internships. Almost invariably I put them on to one of my staff members. These are people who had already been through the process and were more than willing to help. I know that you will find plenty of willing people. Talking to an MEP about working in the European Parliament or getting a job in the Commission is not a great idea because we do not know the difficulties and the challenges. It would be a good idea if you could get a group of Irish staff who work in the institutions or even more widely in Brussels, because Brussels is not just the institutions. Getting a group who are interested in helping out, and who are only a few years older than some of the people they will talk to would be a good idea. I know it worked for the people who contacted my office. It is just a thought, but it is a practical pathway that I have seen work and work well.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

There would not be a huge level of disagreement in this room I think we can say.

Professor John O'Brennan

Returning to the strategy for a moment, one important part of it sees the Government funding scholarships to the College of Europe in Bruges. The idea is that we would support sending a number of students every year. Bruges is routinely identified as the great finishing school for eurocrats. It rightly has a very high reputation but I make the point in my paper that we do not need to go to Bruges. We have fine offerings at masters level at Irish universities. I could not understand this part of the strategy. We have a very fine masters programme at University College Dublin, UCD. There is another in international relations in Europe at Dublin City University, DCU, and another at University College Cork, UCC. What we could do is provide scholarships that would allow some of our excellent graduates to take the MSc in European studies at UCD, because it is expensive. During the spring of their last year, undergraduates start coming to me to ask about options they might take. One of the things I do is routinely steer them towards the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden because all of these countries now have very good offerings at postgraduate level. They are all taught through English, and these jurisdictions are much cheaper than Ireland in terms of the fees that have to be paid. Here they average 15,000 per year and in recent years the cost of living has been a big issue as well.

It is also very good if they are internationalising their CV. However, there is not any reason we could not have some of our potential EU candidates take up a course at UCC or UCD. We have world-class people teaching in these institutions from all over the world, but the problem since the crisis in 2009 is that there have not been the supports there for postgraduate students to be able to take those kinds of options. We could revisit that and not just rely on the College of Europe producing an extra three or four people per year who might be successful in the competition.

One final point is about a more recent suggestion where the Government has floated the idea of an Irish only recruitment process. I gather that the Department of Foreign Affairs has been speaking with the Commission about this. However, it is interesting that Ireland is not an outlier. I thought until recently that we were one of the few member states struggling to get a sufficient number of candidates into the EU. That is not the case. We are about middle way in the rankings. Some of this is about the standard of living here and the options open to graduates. Brussels is also not as attractive as it used to be. In the 1970s, for example, Brussels was really attractive for talented graduates from Ireland because it was new, it was innovative and it was also tax free for many years. There were lots of perks. That is not the case any more. The Government is not alone in trying to persuade the Commission that an Irish only competition would be one way of getting more of our nationals into the institutions. Many other member states are doing this. I expect the Commission is probably going to change the way in which these competitions function in the future, precisely to address the kind of problem we have in Ireland.

Chairman

There is a lot of information in Professor O'Brennan's presentation and I do not think he is going to get through it all. I recommend that he pick out bits and pieces.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I thank Professor O'Brennan for his presentation and take on board his criticisms of the A Career for EU strategy and that is something we might come back to and make recommendations to the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Thomas Byrne. Where are the students who would potentially follow an international role going to instead? Are they going to the United Nations or are they staying at home? It is surprising this is happening because from my experience as a Deputy, and I know for my colleagues as well, we are inundated with young people who want to work for us and to be parliamentary or secretarial assistants or want work experience. Despite what we hear, young people are very interested in politics. We had some transition year students from all over the country in the coffee dock last week and their level of interest was extraordinary. There is a problem because the people are there, and Professor O'Brennan is outlining the problems that are hindering them from going to the EU. Where are those bright students he talked about going instead?

Second, what is the Commission's view on this? Professor O'Brennan mentioned it briefly. Is the Commission concerned that certain nationalities are not being represented in the institutions or does it care less? I would be interested in that. How important is it to have all the different member states represented in the EU institutions?

Finally, I have a technical question. What is the language eligibility criterion and where does Irish fit into that? What languages do students need to follow a career generally in EU institutions or in particular EU institutions?

Professor John O'Brennan

As to what students are doing that they may not have been doing previously, there are two aspects. One is about internationalism generally. They are not just going to Brussels; it is very far from being the only game in town. If someone wants to pursue a career in an international organisation, it is not just the United Nations and places like Geneva. Even in Brussels, as Deputy Harkin said, there is a layer of campaigning organisations of different kinds and regional representations of different groups and, therefore, it is easy to slot into one of those spaces where previously people's options might have been more limited. There is an argument that there are now more lobbyists in Brussels than in Washington DC, which seems extraordinary, but that certainly fits with my experience. There are a lot of those kind of options in international organisations and entities of different kinds that were maybe not there previously. It is also true that the terms and conditions of those working within the institutions are just not as attractive as they used to be. What our graduates are doing is they are lawyers, going into finance and human resources, working for multinational corporations of every kind in addition to civil society groups and the kind of international groups that I have talked about. There is vastly more opportunity in Brussels and beyond the EU.

The Commission is genuinely concerned. I have been reading a number of documents that I would be happy to pass on to the Deputy where they are beginning to address the nature of the problem by looking at data, for example, the data I mentioned about where Ireland sits in respect of the number of nationals that are being successful. The European Parliament is also concerned about this and looking at the problem. I am sure there is a lot of representation going on between individual member states to the Commission so I expect we will see some movement on this next year for sure.

On the question of languages, it has not changed in respect of the EU in that someone needs at least two languages in order to get into the institutions and progress. However in respect of Brussels itself, there was an enormous change in the early 2000s especially after the accession of central and eastern European states after 2004. Prior to that if I was advising students, I would always say they needed at least French along with English to survive in Brussels but that has not been the case for a long time. I have noticed, because I have spent a lot of time in central and eastern Europe, that more universities there are offering courses in English to make themselves attractive to international students. Putting the different pieces of this together language is just not as important as it used to be but when it comes to progressing through the European institutions, it is still a requirement. We have a significant problem in Ireland. Language learning is part of the explanation for some of relative drop in applications. There is evidence that for even the people who are coming out of university with French and German as part of their degrees, the standard they have is inadequate relative to the minimum threshold the Commission and other organisations look for. The Department of Foreign Affairs has been helping in part to get the candidates to the level they need to be at for some years now but this has to be rooted at primary level so that we devote significantly more resources to language learning and that is carried through the secondary system and into the third level system.

Another thing I think the A Career for EU strategy is banking on is that many more kids will come through the system from Irish-Polish and Irish-Slovak households and that will solve the problem for us because they tend to have better language capacity, depending on when they arrived in Ireland and what the languages spoken in the households may be. That may well help in addition but we should do much more foundationally to put better language training in place from the earliest possible point and take it right through to third level.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I agree with Professor O'Brennan but there are two points I would like to add. As regards getting a foothold in Brussels one can always improve their language while there. The availability of language courses in Brussels, be they French or whatever else, is something there is unfortunately a sense of distance from. That it is an exotic option and unless one is going over fluent in French or German it is just not within them. However, traineeships not only within the institutions but beyond the institutions are far more accessible and having English as a mother tongue makes someone a desirable candidate. That is something we do not talk about. We talk about it in a commercial sense how we are the only native English-speaking country left in the EU.

On languages there are two issues I am wary of and Professor O'Brennan alluded to them without speaking to them directly. It is about learning from the mistakes of the UK experience in the EU whereby careers in Brussels were deemed as not attractive for a lot longer and there was a drop-off. They sought to plug the gaps first through secondments from their own civil service and, second, through tapping into their diaspora, for the want of a better word such as people who happened to have a British passport but who grew up in Germany, a mixed heritage family or people who grew up in the European school system and how that weakened their general impact quite clearly in the European Commission. Would there be a concern that might be something that was seen as an easy solution? Professor O'Brennan talked about people from slightly newer Irish communities who have language skills, which is brilliant, but I am talking about people that have never had a connection to Ireland but happen to qualify for an Irish passport, and we will add them to our numbers and it will bump them up, and it looks better on paper but does not address the issue of influence.

Second, placing someone on secondment for a two to three-year opportunity, which is a great opportunity for them, but they will not commit a 40-year career to a European civil service. Those are two things that clearly happened with the British experience in the EU and I am very concerned that is an easy approach to massage the numbers. How can we avoid the temptation to do that?

Professor John O'Brennan

I completely agree. When the Government produced this strategy last year, I felt it was looking for fast-track options and not addressing the deeper structural issue that has emerged over time. I can perfectly understand this, faced with the drop that we are looking at by 2025 but the Deputy is right. Those measures may well help. I am not saying they should not be don but in the longer term, we would be much better served by addressing the structural issues that do not provide enough incentives for talented young people to think about offering themselves for an EU track.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I have been dealing with the EU institutions for a long time. I agree with Professor O'Brennan regarding the experience of attending European Councils in the 1990s compared to the 2010s. French was used much more in the 1990s. Other countries, aside from the French and Belgians, used French as well. Now, English has become the vernacular for all negotiations and all detailed discussions of all parties, which is interesting. The language issue is also related to people living in Brussels. It is about how they get on as opposed to simply how they work. That inhibits some people from deciding to do that.

I disagree on the secondment issue. There is scope for development. We have greatly expanded our own foreign affairs teams across the world. For a lot of the bright people whom we have talked about, that is another option. It is an attractive option to make a career in our foreign service. Professor O'Brennan complimented Irish people working in the European Commission and the parliament and so on. However, our own foreign affairs team working in Brussels has been incredible. For many, it is a more fulfilling career because people feel they are fighting the national cause. This relates to my second question. We would like to hire our own, but what importance is there to having a strong cohort of Irish people who take an oath to the Union, as commissioners do, and who are supposed to be servants of the Union rather than servants of any nation? We can all answer that question but I would be interested to hear the professor's perspective. What benefit does he see from having people within the institutions of the Union?

Professor John O'Brennan

Those are good questions. There is definitely a role for secondment. Regarding Department of Foreign Affairs, DFA, officials, in recent weeks I have done a series of talks on Ireland and Europe as we come up to the 50th anniversary of accession. I have spoken in the US, Germany, Bulgaria and Romania. I have been hugely impressed by all of the young DFA officials whom I have met. They are doing extraordinary work. Some of them may well end up seconded to Brussels for different periods.

In some ways, the importance of having people in the EU is intangible because the Deputy is correct people who work for the Commission are enjoined to work on behalf of the European interest and not on behalf of their national interest. However, we all know that from the very beginning there has been a fungibility about this. For me, as I travel around regularly, the one thing that becomes apparent is that in the 1970s, our officials learned how to play the European game effectively. That was an advantage to Ireland in the subsequent years. It is also about the projection of soft power. People like us and trust us. When they encounter us in the different spaces in the EU, they are almost predisposed to help us because they perceive Ireland as a trusted mediator. That is a very different from being the national of a large member state that may have different kinds of baggage. I cannot prove this but I know that in some competitions for funding that I have been in at European Union level, the fact that I was Irish was probably an advantage to me. In some cases, it is because those officials at very senior level have had such positive engagements with Ireland. They may have come here on the Erasmus+ programme over the past 30 something years and enjoyed it or it is because their encounters with Irish people have been largely positive. It is intangible but that does not mean that it is not substantive and does not deliver important things for the country in the longer term.

Deputy Marian Harkin

The last point Professor O'Brennan made is true. The number of European officials and MEPs who have been to Ireland on the Erasmus+ programme is substantial. I have yet to meet one who did not have something positive to say about Ireland. People are positively disposed to Ireland. That really does matter.

The point about the value of having Irish people in the Commission has to be seen as an investment by Government. When people go to work there they have to take on the European perspective. If they did otherwise, that would be completely negative. If every German worker took a German perspective, we know what would happen to us.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I assure the Deputy that the ECB has a rather Germanic perspective

Deputy Marian Harkin

The fact that is the way the European Commission is supposed to work benefits smaller countries much more than larger countries. One of the branches I dealt with most was the Directorate General for the Environment. There were quite a number of Irish officials there. It was important because they had the knowledge and the perspective. That perspective was not always in favour of the Irish Government because they also knew where people had tried to exploit loopholes and they were well clued in but they still had the perspective. That is very important. It is also important that we never try to emphasise that we want more Irish people because they will favour Ireland. We do not because as soon as one goes down that road it is lose-lose. There are many other countries and if they take that attitude, then we are going nowhere with it.

For people in Brussels, it is not just about working there; it is about living there. Deputy Howlin's point about young people living in Brussels goes back to what I said earlier. Many of the people who worked for me helped other young Irish people coming to Brussels, not just in getting employment but they were often more of a help in securing accommodation, fitting in, getting introduced to the GAA and other clubs, etc., which is important.

We should consider trying to recruit a number of staff to the institutions who would act as - I do not want to use the word "ambassadors" because it is too fancy - who would be available to give face-to-face or virtual advice to young people at a particular time, and that this would be structured in some way.

Professor John O'Brennan

I will make one final point about how this all connects to communicating Europe. Sometimes we are too self-congratulatory when we see Eurobarometer figures suggesting that we consistently have the highest or second-highest level of support for the European Union. We know there have been important rejections of the European Union in two recent referendums. We should not take anything for granted. We should see the recruitment issue as part of a wider effort to communicate Europe. We were well on the way before the Covid, when the Government was committed to citizens' dialogues. There is a good case for arguing that we should have a permanent citizens' assembly that could move around the country to talk about European issues and that its membership would not just consist of vested interests and people like us. It would make an effort to communicate to people what Ireland is doing in the European Union, why it is significant and how it impacts on individuals and their communities. This would necessarily involve long-term investment. We are better than many other jurisdictions. The Brexit saga has probably helped to inform people more. If we look back at failed referendums in the past, however, what emerges again and again is the lack of knowledge people had, the lack of confidence they had in their ability to exercise judgment about the significance of a particular treaty and to go into the ballot box. We should not take anything for granted. We should involve schools in particular and the more we can connect schools to policymakers in this House and in Brussels the better. That kind of long-term investment will ensure we can avoid the kind of dreadful scenario that played out in Britain in 2016. In an era of vast disinformation, it is more important than ever that people can talk about the European Union rationally and with the help of factual evidence rather than the kind of hysteria you often get in these discussions.

Chairman

It is refreshing that Professor O'Brennan is not holding back in the context of what is not and what is working. I reached out to some schools prior to today and I know that some career counsellors and the head of politics and society classes are listening. We can pursue Professor O'Brennan's proposal on trying to have more contact with politics and society teachers. There was a lot in his contribution. We can certainly send it on to the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs and the Minister-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is an important enough topic to go through the careers and EU strategy and bring these points out and refine them. Perhaps the next Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs might be well-versed in these things.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The next Minister of State could even be in the room.

Chairman

Are there any takers? Does anyone want to make a proposal in that regard.? We could also involve the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science because much of this relates to his brief.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is something that has occurred to me for a long time. Some of us have been fortunate enough to have a lot of interaction with the European institutions, including dealing with the European Parliament, the Commission and the Council and being involved in bilateral meetings. Deputy Harkin has particular expertise having lived in Europe. However, many Members of the Houses do not know how these institutions work. Part of the work we should be thinking about is educating ourselves with regard, specifically, to the institutions work. It is important for us to understand that too. The thing that has always struck me is that there is no proper training for Members when they arrive in the Houses, even training about the functioning of the House, never mind further afield. It is something we need to put on the agenda of the Houses.

Chairman

A hundred years later we are still waiting for job description.

Professor John O'Brennan

That is also crucial with respect to referendums because it is not only Deputies and Senators but councillors who we will be relying on to go out into their local areas and talk about Europe. If they feel they do not have the competence to do that, it is a real problem. I agree with Deputy Howlin that every incoming Member should have an induction into the workings of European Union. I also suggest that every university should make it compulsory for students to take at least one module to learn how the European Union works because it spills over into virtually every policy area nowadays. As a matter of civic commitment and competence, that would be a positive step forward.

Chairman

On Professor O'Brennan's point about a permanent citizens' assembly that would move around the country, every time there is a big question on the future of Europe, a referendum is coming up or some kind of treaty change, we have town hall meetings. We know who will be in the right-hand corner of the room and who will be in the left-hand corner. The idea of having a citizens' assembly to discuss these big questions is excellent.

Professor John O'Brennan

Going back to the failure of the Nice referendum, the Government introduced the National Forum on Europe. Deputy Howlin and others were involved with that. I had the feeling as time went on that it became more and more a closed shop where we were all talking to each other. That was not how it was initially. There were genuinely open and fresh proceedings. Prior to the Covid, the citizens' dialogues the Government set up with the European Movement and other bodies were going around the country. The model they employed was a very good one. The French European affairs minister visited when Deputy McEntee was Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs. We had approximately 300 students in a room in Maynooth University. The French delegation was astonished that we were capable of getting that many students in to talk about the European Union. Because they were impressed by the citizens' dialogue model, they introduced something similar and began to roll it out in France. Covid interrupted all of that. I hope we will get back to some kind of model where we could at least have regular conversations in the community about sectoral-specific policies that impact on communities, and that we would try to reach out to communities as much as possible. In other words, I hope that when we come to another referendum, it will not be like cramming for an exam. That is not healthy for anyone. I hope people will have a base of knowledge and are confident about going into the ballot box to exercise the franchise.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I was going to say something but Professor O'Brennan got it in ahead of me. He used the term "sectoral-specific". From my experience - that is all it is, but I have 15 years' worth - as an Independent, I did not have a party to draw on and if I was holding a meeting and only talked about the benefits of the European Union or how it impacted on the audience, most people were too busy to come to meetings like that. If it is sectoral specific, however, you can speak to carers about legislation that is pending or in train that impacts on them. You can speak to people with disability about the disability strategy. I will not mention farmers because they come to meetings. Organic farming is another sector, however. If, for example, you were to hold a few meetings on the new proposal about corporate social responsibility, people would be interested in coming to that. We could have meetings about legislation that people do not know about, even on simple things such as food safety or conflict minerals. There are many things different groups of people are interested in, but they are not interested in organic farming. It would be a nice bit of work. We could not deal with everything.

An effort could be made in order that people could see how the European Union and the decisions taken by it impact on their lives every day. This even applies to things like the European Social Fund and employment supports. You will always find an audience for some of those. Internet safety is a major issue for many parents and families. If there were to be a meeting on that, from a European perspective, you would get an audience you would never get at another meeting. This idea of Europe and its impact is far too broad. At that point, a lot of people and their families say they have too many other things to do. People are busy, unless it impacts on them and they see it as important. That is my personal experience, and all I can say is that for me, certainly that worked.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Professor O'Brennan has dealt with the part about ensuring you have the pipeline of people. I agree that it would not be a bad idea, particularly if you are talking about workforce planning, etc.

Professor O'Brennan got into the wider issue about engagement with the institutions and the European project. We have had the Conference on the Future of Europe project. If you went out onto the street, you would not find five people who knew that conference happened. In any event,for all the difficulties that exist, it has been useful. When I was over recently, there were discussions about proposed European legislation whereby a specific look is going to be taken at creating randomly selected citizens' panels. I do not know how this could be done in the context of every item of legislation. I accept, however, that if you have the time, it is not necessarily a bad idea. We have seen how citizens' assemblies have worked here. They have sometimes have worked a lot more imaginatively and creatively than politics could. I suppose that is welcome.

There has also been a significant amount of conversation on Deputy Howlin's point to the effect that you could go around these Houses and not find a huge number of people who are relatively well-informed on the operations of the European institutions and the work they are doing. At times, there has been no real communication other than when, for example, legislation needs to be transposed. You are almost dealing with it after the fact. I suppose it is about ensuring that there will be means and mechanisms for Deputies to ask questions of the Commission and Commissioners. We have had a fair amount of interaction ourselves, but that is with a small number of people on very specific issues. It is the whole idea of citizens, politicians or whomever being able to trigger legislation or debates or conversation in Europe. Getting all of those pieces together is the issue. Many here with more experience than me would have said that there was a certain reliance on Britain from the point of view of doing due diligence on legislation and whatever was happening. Even though we have not reached the place we need to be in relation to all of that, at least that conversation is happening across Europe and there is an acceptance of it. Some of us have sat on working groups that at least put proposals together in that regard. It is just a matter of doing it faster, quicker and better, but it fits in completely with the point Professor O'Brennan is making.

There is a need to make sure, insofar as is possible, that people realise what is going on in Europe. Europe is an easier sell these days. If you were trying to sell this during the financial crash, you would not have got a whole pile of people backing you on that argument, and rightfully so. When we are talking about referendums there are particular issues relating to Europe. However, we will park that. It is far to say that Brexit, Covid and the Ukrainian crisis have shown people across Europe their utter reliance on each other. We are the only show in town, to some degree, in the context of future positive developments.

I agree with the Professor. It is worthwhile bringing the Minister in to discuss this. It is not just about jobs; we have to get to grips with the wider interaction piece, even if it is only between Leinster House and the European institutions.

Chairman

We are meandering towards a conclusion. I have two final points. The first is an observation that when the Professor is giving his opinion he is not afraid to shoot from the hip, which is really refreshing. We all need to be challenged, and governments certainly need to be challenged. However, there is a very current and hot topic issue at the moment relating to teacher career leave. In my opinion, the teachers who get career leave come back much more informed and experienced. Without opening up the hornets' nest around that, is there a potential pathway for teachers who want to go to Brussels? I am thinking about those who teach history, geography, Spanish and French. There are a lot of Irish teachers with expertise who are spread all over the world, be it in Shanghai, Beijing, Ras Al Khaimah, Sharjah, Qatar, Oman, Dubai or Abu Dhabi. Teachers are going to continue going to these places. I was a teacher and I certainly would not be critical of them. As a nation, we go abroad to broaden our minds. Is there an option for teachers who want to take a career break to go to Brussels and bring all that knowledge back into the classroom and into their communities? Is there an opportunity there for enrichment?

I was in Prague recently with Irish translators and interpreters, and the full interpretation suite as Gaeilge. It was great to open up the monitor and see Gaeilge on a par with Italian, French and German. It is great to have that expertise there. I commend all the people out there. They are doing a massive job. It is also a highly skilled job. For students from Ireland with Gaeilge who are looking at pathways, I presume it is the usual drill for interpreters and translators of having to have three languages. Now, however, Irish is one of them. They can tick the Irish and English box and they just need a third language. Can Professor O'Brennan just confirm that for people who are listening in? I would be interested in his thoughts on those two points.

Professor John O'Brennan

I am not sure whether there is a teacher career leave scheme in place specifically for people who are interested in Europe.

Chairman

There is not yet.

Professor John O'Brennan

I suspect there is not. However, Europe has only recently been made an addition to the second level curriculum. It was certainly ad hoc if not completely absent prior to five years ago. This is something very recent. I suspect that the politics and society representative teachers' group will know a lot more about this. They may well be arguing for that within their own system. I suspect that is a very difficult argument to make in the current context. As the Chair rightly suggested, the recruitment problem within our schools is reaching a really difficult point. Schools may well be in the position where they are cancelling career breaks of all kinds, so it might not be the right time. Looking forward, however, I do not think there is any doubt that if you have people who have been immersed in that kind of environment for a period, what they bring back to the classroom in terms of experiential learning is invaluable.

On the issue of translators and interpreters, it is three languages. It is a very welcome addition in Brussels that we now have our own official language.

Chairman

We are very grateful to Professor O'Brennan for his openness and his engagement this morning. It has been really helpful. The clerk to the committee will follow up in respect of inviting the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs to come before us. We will send the Professor's presentation to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and will try to bring in whomever is going to be the holder of that office in the new year.

Táim fíorbhuíoch de John O’Brennan agus, ar son an chomhchoiste, guím gach rath air as a obair féin agus as a moltaí i leith na hEorpa fosta. Tá mo dhuine iontach buíoch faoin gcaidreamh, as an díospóireacht agus as an gcaint oscailte inniu fosta. Is é sin é.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.30 a.m on Wednesday, 25 January 2023.