Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2023

Priorities of the Spanish EU Presidency: Discussion with Spanish Ambassador

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Spanish ambassador, H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva. Today's meeting is to discuss the priorities of the Spanish Presidency of the European Council, which began on 1 July.

Before we begin, I advise the ambassador of the long-standing parliamentary practice that witnesses should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. If a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that it is a constitutional requirement that they be within the confines of Leinster House if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I cannot permit a member to participate if they do not adhere to this requirement. Any members who seek to contribute from outside the precincts of Leinster House will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask members partaking via Microsoft Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite the ambassador to make his opening statement.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I wish buenos días, or maidin mhaith, to the distinguished Deputies and Senators. It is an honour to present our priorities for the EU Presidency at the meeting today. I thank the committee for the opportunity.

We are five days into the Spanish Presidency. This will be the fifth time Spain takes on this role since 1986, when we joined the forerunner of the EU, the European Community. As we did the first time, we will spare no efforts to make this Presidency a dynamic success. Spain is one of the most pro-European countries. There is ample awareness among my countrymen that if Spain is a modem, open and democratic society, it is largely thanks to our membership of the EU.

Our country will take over the EU Presidency at a crucial and critical time. Elections to the European Parliament will be held in June next year. After that, a new Commission will be elected. The terms of both the European Parliament and the Commission will soon come to an end. The Spanish Presidency, therefore, will be the last full Presidency of the current Commission. This comes with the heavy responsibility of trying to wrap up a huge number of dossiers, while at the same time presenting us with the unique opportunity of putting forward fresh new initiatives. The Spanish Presidency is a nationwide project. We have all been working on it for almost two years, putting in place all the necessary supporting structures. An open discussion was recently held in both Chambers of the Parliament, with the entire political spectrum and all political parties having a say in the shaping of this consensual Spanish Presidency.

The first point I make is to offer a political disclaimer to members. Our programme is flexible. It must be so if we are to be able to respond quickly and powerfully to a war crisis in which our values and security are at stake. This is the lesson we have learned. During their Presidency, the French had to deal with the Russian aggression against Ukraine as much as the two previous EU Presidencies had to take on the pandemic. A black swan should not be ruled out. Should that black swan materialise, in the form of migration, financial turmoil or who knows what, a number of adjustment mechanisms will be set off both to confront the challenge and drive forward priority files.

The second point concerns Ukraine. We will keep on supporting its brave resistance to the criminal Russian aggression with military, financial, humanitarian and political support. Our unity in this matter is our main strength.

Third, I offer a word on the people. A cross-cutting concern of this Presidency will be to deliver for our citizens and help them with their daily lives in these volatile times. The motto of the Spanish Presidency is "Europa, más cerca", which means "Europe, closer to you".

Having made those three points, I will now outline the four priority lines of actions that will inspire our Presidency. These are: reindustrialisation and open strategic autonomy; the green and digital transitions; greater social and economic justice; and strengthening European unity and co-operating with our like-minded democratic allies worldwide. The first action, reindustrialisation and open strategic autonomy, will be the main point of the agenda of the informal European Council that will be held in Granada on 4 and 5 October. Many of the difficulties our citizens have experienced in recent years have a common denominator, namely, our excessive dependence on a small number of third countries and the need to derisk our economies. We need to strengthen our autonomy in sectors that are fundamental to the day-to-day lives of our citizens, such as energy, health, food and digital and artificial intelligence, AI, technologies.

To this end, it is essential to support the reindustrialisation of our countries, together with the diversification of our sources of supply towards our most reliable international partners in essential commodities. This is why Latin America has become a crucial region in geopolitical terms, not only for Spain but also for the wider European Union. Spain would like to see the EU and Latin American countries agree an agenda for the future, based both on shared interests and strategic partnerships. It would like this agenda to be driven forward and regularly updated by a structured and permanent dialogue that serves as the backbone to a re-energised biregional relationship. This is our transatlantic vision, which is incomplete without Latin America. This will also be our approach to the EU-CELAC summit on 17 and 18 July. Spain will propose a forward-looking comprehensive strategy to ensure the economic security and global leadership of the EU, in line with the work of the European institutions and the roadmap agreed in Versailles in March 2022 by the leaders of all 27 member states. We have been working on this strategy since September 2022 in close co-operation with 80 ministries from all member states. There is no precedent in Europe for this exercise in foresight.

I turn now to the green transition and environmental resilience. Curbing climate change and environmental degradation is both an urgent need and an opportunity. We have to reduce drastically our dependency on fossil fuels via renewables. We have to lower electricity bills to make European companies more competitive, and we have to create jobs. In this regard we will promote a reform of the electricity market designed and aimed at speeding up the deployment of renewable energies, the reduction of electricity prices and the improvement of the system's overall stability. In the energy field we will also work on important dossiers such as the gas and hydrogen package. We will also promote legislation for the reduction of waste and microplastics, the design of sustainable products and the generation of green fuels. All of this seeks to ensure the EU will remain at the forefront of the global fight against climate change, while creating wealth and new opportunities.

On the promotion of greater social and economic justice, Spain will foster an economic justice forum in the EU. An even more competitive economy is needed, but it must also be fairer and more compassionate. Both objectives are compatible. We need to strengthen the foundations of our welfare states. We will work hard on the review of the multi-annual financial framework until 2027. We will also work on an adequate reform of the economic governance rules to increase transparency and combine the sustainability of public finances with the proper financing of social services and the green and digital transitions. Finally, Spain will advocate for stronger protection of vulnerable groups such as children, women suffering from violence and people with disabilities. Among the various files in the social field, I am proud to say that the European disability card will be our priority.

In an international context marked by growing geopolitical tensions, strengthening European unity is a must. The EU must remain united. There is huge strength in our unity. Member states must continue to develop tools that enable us to act together. In doing so, we stand a better chance of successfully confronting the challenges of our time and attaining peace in Ukraine. It is for the same reason - our unity is our main strength - that Spain will advocate for the deepening of the Internal Market, for a genuine banking and capital market union, and for the improvement of our common financial instruments such as NextGenerationEU funds. We will also advocate for better and simpler decision-making processes in the EU. We will build on the recent agreement reached by the Council on asylum and migration because this position will be the basis of negotiations by our Council Presidency and the European Parliament over the coming months. We will do our best to steer those negotiations to a successful end. Migrants are needed in an ageing Europe. It is demography that speaks. However, we need to stop human trafficking and smuggling and avoid humanitarian catastrophes.

In short, we will devote our efforts to advance and conclude dozens of ongoing dossiers that will directly impact the well-being of the European citizen. As mentioned, Latin America and the Caribbean are regions of overriding importance in geopolitical terms. We will have a summit later this month. We share fundamental interests and values with Latin America. Tapping into the potential of our bilateral relations will be vastly beneficial to both sides in terms of trade, investment, defence of human rights and climate change.

Again, Spain will strive to agree on a wide-ranging biregional agenda for the future, supported by a structured and permanent dialogue with Latin America. Spain knows too well the extent to which our stability and prosperity depends on the stability and prosperity of neighbouring EU countries. The eastern neighbourhood is now the understandable focus of our attention, but let us not be tempted to rob Peter to pay Paul. During our Presidency we will convene a southern neighbourhood summit, and boost the dialogue between the EU and its southern Mediterranean partners on key issues like migratory flows, food and energy security, water and environmental issues to name a few. The summit should also strengthen the foundations of our partnership with our southern neighbours, such as we are now witnessing with Tunisia. With a similar goal we are also working on the European Political Community, for which we will host a summit in Granada on 5 October. We support this forum as it is currently set up, in an open format. It has proven useful as a framework to enhance open exchanges on key geopolitical issues in Europe, such as open strategic autonomy.

Last, but not least, the Spanish Presidency will build on the new momentum in EU-US relations and keep reinvigorating transatlantic ties from Canada to Chile. In summary, over the past two years Spain has done its homework, and is now looking forward to taking over the EU Council Presidency. It is confident it will live up to the expectations placed on it to make the EU safer, fairer, more competitive and more sustainable. Go raibh maith agaibh. Forgive my Irish.

An Cathaoirleach

Not at all. I thank the ambassador for his comprehensive presentation of what sounds like an excellent work programme for the upcoming Presidency. A number of Deputies want to come in. I do not usually intervene or make a comment first. However, I want to say one thing that is particular to my way of thinking about things. It is about the relationship between the European Union and the continent of Africa, in particular with regard to the potential crisis taking place in the Horn of Africa. It is something we should always be conscious of. We must never take our eye off the ball in that area. It has to be led by Europe and the member states. As is always the case, there are many other conflicting areas of need, want, attention and time. It is something I wanted to mention, as it was absent in that interesting and detailed programme. I do not expect the ambassador to respond immediately on it, but it is something important to keep in our minds at all times. With that, I call Deputy Howlin.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I thank the ambassador for his comprehensive presentation - gracias - and the self-evident two years of enormous preparation for the Spanish Presidency, which is both ambitious and important. There is a huge range of issues. To enable everybody to deal with some, I will deal with a couple. The first is something which is important from our perspective. The ambassador mentioned that this is the last full Presidency of the European Council before next year's elections. That is an important issue in the context of the growth of euroscepticism across the EU. I was reading this morning about the most recent opinion polls in France and Germany, which are worrying for those of us who are pro-European. My first question is a little off-piste. Is there a strategy in advance of those elections to communicate to citizens the value and values of the EU? How is it proposed to do that? We all talk about delivering for citizens, and in many ways it is an in-house discussion, which we do not communicate well to people who do not feel the impact. Is there a strategy to build on Spain's declared and real support for the broadening and deepening development of the EU?

My second question is linked to that. It is about what is probably the biggest issue that will arise in coming months. It may well have a huge impact on the outcome of next year's elections, and therefore on the future direction of the EU. That is the issue of migration.

We have talked about it. Spain is very much on the front line of receiving migrants and having a direct land border on the continent of Africa, as the Chairman has said. I would be interested in hearing His Excellency's thoughts on how that matter can be handled in the coming months so that it does not become like the Brexit referendum, where there were the outrageous posters about mass immigration and what would happen if Britain did not leave the European Union. How do we counteract that?

I am intrigued by the ambition of reindustrialisation for Europe. We are aware of the American Inflation Reduction Act, IRA, which is going to deploy hundreds of billion of dollars to bring back to the United States fundamental manufacturing, including chip and electric battery manufacturing. How exactly does His Excellency see the reindustrialisation of Europe happening in the context of the enormous sums of money being deployed in the United States to bring it about there?

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

First of all, another disclaimer. I had only seven minutes earlier, so I could not mention everything. Implied in our global southern strategy, of course Africa is prominent, especially to a country like Spain. We have a special sensitivity to what goes on in northern Africa and in the Middle East. I take advantage of the fact that I am here to say that Ireland actually thanked us for the rescue operation in Sudan. This shows that Spain takes very seriously what happens, and not just in Horn of Africa or in north Africa. When I mention that, not robbing Peter to pay Paul, although we have this problem now on the eastern borders with the criminal aggression in Ukraine, we should not forget that jihadism may win the day in places like Mali. These are our southern borders and therefore we in Europe should pay careful attention to what goes on in the Sahara, whether it is in Mali or Libya.

Spain has its Plan Africa. In this the northern African regions and countries are prominent but we do not forget that further south there is jihadism going on. The Horn of Africa is also a very volatile region, as is Sudan. We talk a lot about the war in Ukraine and we pay less attention to what went on and still goes on in Syria, Yemen and Sudan. South of the northern African borders, the big threat is jihadism. The reason I did not mention this previously is because my time was limited and I wanted to focus on the summits we are organising.

Regarding the communications strategy, I am very happy the Deputy asked that question. When the Taoiseach received our Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez, here, this question was prominent in their discussions. The rise of populism in Europe, whether from the extreme left or the extreme right, is a worrying factor. It not only affects countries like Poland, Hungary and Italy. Spain is now also part of the problem. The communications strategy has a lot to do with what I mentioned as a priority, which is keeping the citizens in mind. Populism is fed by things like inflation when people find it difficult to pay their mortgages, for example, and many other things which affect citizens' daily lives. We think that Europe has to reach its citizens. This is why the slogan of this Presidency is "Europa, más cerca". We need to get citizens' attention and ensure they understand it is in their interest to support European policies.

I would add that we all have to make sacrifices for our unity and strength. Our unity rests on two pillars: the Single Common Market and the freedom of people to travel across borders. We have to keep borders secure because immigration is being used as a fuel of populism. We have to make sure people understand that demographics imply we need workers in Europe but we have to control migration. If we do not control illegal trafficking of human beings and smuggling and if we do not put an end to abominable episodes, be it in Spain or Morocco or Greece and the Greek islands or Italy or Turkey, citizens will feel things are out of control. They may be tempted to discard European structures and European summits if they do not feel they are close enough to what they worry about. This is what led the Spanish Presidency to include this priority and to opt for the slogan of "Europa, más cerca".

We feel that these are politically very volatile times. Populism should be stopped with arguments explaining what demographics mean and what migration can do for us. We also need to keep inflation at bay and solve our economic worries. The communications strategy is not the only priority but it is very much one of our priorities. It is not only the priority, it is the slogan of the Spanish Presidency. We are more than aware of the risks. We are not talking just about economic security or defence security. There is also an internal risk of estranging populations in Europe from the goals and values of the Union.

Migration is the Achilles heel of Europe. We feel it is a very important issue and that this fuels populism. It is being used as an argument by extremist parties to try to put the blame on migrants and not on human traffickers and smugglers. Unless we get an overall agreement on migration and asylum, we will just be putting some patches on anecdotal questions and not have the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that we need the workforce and we have to control our borders. We are at the forefront of trying to make our borders safer for the rest of Europe. Ireland does not have this problem but we in the south feel the responsibility and that it is our task to secure our common borders. We must also have solidarity to compensate for this, and states have to accept the overall agreement.

We thank the Swedish Presidency for having done a great job in tackling this problem but there is a lot more to be solved. We have to come to an agreement on rescue operations. We are all witnessing these terrible tragedies on the seas. We have to counteract human traffickers and their networks.

Regarding reindustrialisation and strategic autonomy, I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to say that previous presidencies had to confront the Covid pandemic. What did we learn from the pandemic? We learned that we needed safe deliveries, mainly in the pharmaceutical industry, in masks and in medical equipment and that we had forgotten about the need to keep strategic commodities and products available for the European population. We learned from those lessons of the pandemic. The Deputy quoted the United States, which I think is doing a great job in reindustrialising itself and confronting the rivalry and partnership with China. At the end of the day, we have to be aware that this is a new international architecture. After Covid, there was a move forward to be more aware of our need for strategic commodities and products and, therefore, to reindustrialise and to diversify.

We see Latin America not just in terms of commodities, products and resources we need but also that we need political alliances with these countries. It cannot be expected that our southern borders, either in Africa or Latin America - the global south as people refer to them now - will be more forthcoming unless we treat them not just in terms of security risks or security advantages but also in an overall political alliance.

I think I have answered the Deputy's questions. I beg your pardon if I have not done so properly. I am open to coming back in but I do not want to take the floor for too long.

An Cathaoirleach

His Excellency has been very comprehensive. There is opportunity for some back and forth on this as we have some flexibility on time. I call Deputy Haughey.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I thank the ambassador for his comprehensive report on the forthcoming Presidency. I hope it does not have too many unexpected events or black swans, as he calls them. I welcome that Spain's Presidency is going to be a sustainable Presidency and that it is very conscious of that. It is obvious that a lot of preparation has gone into this Presidency. A general election is taking place on 23 July. Does His Excellency think that might disrupt the Presidency in any way? Is he hopeful that there will be a government, parliament and committees in place and so forth and that it will not be too disruptive to the plans? I suspect it is not ideal to have a general election in the middle of a Presidency, or rather at the beginning of a Presidency. I would be interested in his views on that.

His Excellency talked about the community of Latin America and the Caribbean states. There is a summit taking place on 17 and 18 July. I am just checking something here. The Prime Minister of Spain, Pedro Sánchez, says Europe needs more allies than it has now and Spain is convinced that Latin America and the Caribbean region can and must be among them. Does His Excellency think Spain brings special qualities and skills to cement that particular relationship? How confident is he that we can gain more allies in that part of the world?

I would also raise the issue of migration. I am aware that justice ministers agreed a plan on 8 June but Hungary and Poland were a bit disruptive at the recent European Council meeting in relation to the way forward. I agree that we need more legal pathways for migrants to come to the European Union. I would confirm that these are justice matters. Ireland has opted, and will continue to opt, in to any agreements that are reached. That is just a comment. I wish His Excellency well in trying to finalise that particular issue, which is a major challenge for the European Union.

I have one extra question. His Excellency talked about strategic autonomy. Ursula von der Leyen has talked about de-risking in respect of China. The European Union and individual member states are trying to adopt a policy towards China. There are obvious risks in relation to Chinese policies. Could His Excellency confirm that the European Union will continue to raise human rights issues as they arise in China? Obviously there are economic issues and the need to de-risk and so forth but I would just be hopeful that human rights issues in China, which are obvious, would be raised in the context of this Presidency.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. It would be very arrogant to pretend we do not need good luck. We certainly need it. These are very volatile times and we have all read about the differences of opinions in different European countries when it comes to refugees, asylum seekers and migrants. As for black swans and the sustainable Presidency, I also think this is one of the priorities. I have quoted some of the aspects in which we think sustainability is essential and we have to be at the forefront of the fight against climate change. There are a number of technical aspects in this regard, with plastics and emissions, that are fundamental for all of us in the Fit for 55 programme.

To answer the question about the snap elections, it is essential to keep in mind that Spain has no Eurosceptic parties - not in the far right or in the far left and of course not in the bipartisan main parties. I did not want to read every piece of information I have here as to how well prepared we have been for this Presidency for the last two years. We have really done our homework very well but the Opposition has done so too. It would be foolish not to mention that it already has a sort of shadow Cabinet European Presidency committee on which our former minister for foreign affairs, José García-Margallo, sits, as well as the former ambassador to Ireland, Ildefonso Castro. We have very prominent diplomats and political strategists from the Opposition parties in case they should win and govern. They are already also doing a lot of things to be prepared for that eventuality should it happen. We do not consider that a black swan. We consider that part of our democracy and we are very proud to know that both main political parties have been very well prepared for the Presidency and they know that Spain is behind them.

Although there are political differences, Europe is never a controversy in Spain. This committee knows Spain very well. I am very proud to say that many Irish people - almost 3 million - choose Spain for their holidays every year and some of them buy houses there. Members will be very aware that Spain is one of the more pro-Europe countries. In this case, it is a blessing that we should have snap elections because it would be an agony for a government to have to wait until the end of the year to hold elections. The quicker this is done, the better for all of us. That is less than 23 days from today; 23 minus five. Whatever the result of those elections, the Deputy can rest assured that both main political parties already have a machinery in place and have been co-operating. I mentioned that this is not just a bipartisan issue. It also includes all kinds of parties, from parties that promote independence for Catalonia to parties that are on the far right or far left. None of them have ever questioned the priorities of the Presidency and the fact that Europe is essential for Spain because it is in our history. It is almost in our DNA to think that a better Europe and a stronger Europe is beneficial for Spain.

The Deputy mentioned Latin America. We think Latin America should be a priority for all of us. Again, we should keep the China factor in mind. If Europe leaves a vacuum, it is going to be filled by someone. We already see a number of very worrying moves internationally. That is why I referred to the new international architecture. We do not think transatlantic relations should just be left to NATO or to individual countries that, like Ireland, have an excellent relationship with the US or Canada, which we have too. We think transatlantic really means transatlantic and it should go from Canada to Chile, not just because of commodities or because they are essential for climate change but because also of values, which the Deputy talked about. Some 90% of these countries share our values. We all know the results of colonialism and the negative factors but one of the good factors is that these countries have as a reference democratic values from the old world, from this Continent. They have been at the forefront of the fight for democracy, whether in Argentina, Brazil or Chile. We all know the stories. It is 50 years since the coup d'état in Chile. These are very democratic, very dynamic societies and they should be our partners and our allies.

Therefore, the summit on 17 and 18 July will include alliances and things like digital technology, climate change and also a very interesting entrepreneurial forum to promote investment and trade between our regions. Taking the Mercosur agreement, for example, the Irish Government commissioned a report that showed the Mercosur deal could boost Irish exports by over €1 billion. This is the Irish Government's commissioned report by a Danish consultancy. This was two years ago. There is a lot to gain, not just economically, from encompassing Latin America.

It was shown with the UN resolutions against the criminal invasion of Ukraine that we need the support of the global south. From the perspective of the countries in the south, a war here could be regarded only as a small regional episode. We have now been confronted with the fact that we may risk becoming increasingly alone unless we get countries on board. The Latin American summit is essential for us because we need allies. We also need to diversify our sources of commodities and products. Therefore, there is every reason to make Latin America an important target in geopolitical strategies.

As for migration, the Deputy wished us well. I thank Ireland for its good wishes. It is a very pragmatic country and has shown its generosity when it comes to Ukraine. There are many displaced Ukrainian people in Ireland because of the war. We really thank Ireland for the strong support it is giving to these people. Ireland is quite solidarian when it comes to the question of migrants. We need the migrants but, above all, we need to stop the mafias – the network of human traffickers and smugglers whose recurring abominable actions leave people stranded to their fate, in some cases to end in dramas.

When it comes to de-risking, the Deputy mentioned China and human rights. One of the good things about having the partnership with China, which does not exclude our rivalry in trade and many other aspects, is that it allows us to address human rights. It is essential to keep in mind that the Chinese have accepted having the dialogue on human rights. Our prime minister spoke to the Taoiseach when he was here about having good relations with countries on the questions of migration and asylum. It is essential to have good relationships with Northern African countries, which may not just be sending their own populations in despair to Europe because, as was shown in some of the tragedies, people come from very far away, including the Horn of Africa or Sudan, because of war. There can also be climate refugees and, therefore, it is essential to have good relations with the countries in question. This includes China when it comes to talking about human rights and the need to keep the status quo in the Chinese seas. Not doing so could affect Taiwan, and we do not need another episode of tension with another superpower. On this question, Europe does not stand alone, thank God. We are defending human rights and our political model obliges us to do so. The Chinese are very much aware of the political need for Europe to discuss with it progress on human rights. Of course, that subject is not excluded. I am very happy to confirm that human rights are regarded as fundamental by the current Spanish Government, just as it is fundamental to keep our military and economic alliances so our citizens are safe and protected. If we are protecting our own citizens, we should be aware of the humanitarian need to protect individual rights and human rights elsewhere. This is a matter of concern in respect of many of the partners with which we are embarking under the new architecture, be they in places in Latin America where respect for human rights is not fully in place, in Africa, or, naturally, in China, which has a record that could be manifestly improved.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the ambassador. As someone who will be in the ambassador's lovely country for the election, the notion of campaigning in 30°C is not one that any politician, regardless of his or her perspective, would relish. In this country, we would not even think of conducting an election in that heat at the time of year in question. It will be a very interesting experience to watch the closing stages of the election campaign.

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome the ambassador and thank him for his report. He has covered much of what I wish to ask about but two areas have not been touched upon fully yet, one being technology, particularly artificial intelligence-----

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I mentioned it.

Deputy Robert Troy: Yes, but not in the session of questions and answers. I refer to the prioritisation of this file during the Presidency to ensure we bring about much-needed regulation. Artificial intelligence technology is very destructive. It can be very beneficial to society and business but can have very negative consequences if not regulated adequately. Sometimes I feel the EU is behind the curve in this regard. We have adopted the Digital Services Act and the Digital Market Act but we are following the market and advances in technology when we sometimes need to be out in front. The file in this regard is critical. I would like to hear the ambassador's views on this.

The other area concerns the environment and ensuring each country is living up to its obligations and commitments. A file that has been adopted but not fully implemented across member states concerns the non-financial reporting directive, which is to ensure large companies report annually on what they are doing from a non-financial perspective in the areas of sustainability and carbon-emissions reduction. This fell down the pecking order in recent years, unfortunately. It needs to be prioritised and focused upon.

The ambassador mentioned Mercosur. Ireland, with its small open economy, is very supportive of it because of the trade that EU membership affords but also because of the ability to utilise the trade deals and potential trade deals the EU has secured to support economic development. The ambassador referred to our own independent economic assessment of the Mercosur deal and how it might benefit the Irish economy. However, there is concern in some countries that have signed up to the deal. Given Spain's historical links to South America, it can use its good relationships with the countries in question to influence the changes that may be needed to help to advance Mercosur and get agreement over the line.

Everyone has mentioned migration, including the ambassador. Previous speakers have alluded to threats to the EU from people on the far right and far left. One of the biggest issues being exploited is that of migration. Migration is being blamed for all the challenges facing our countries. We need to work collectively on this. In this regard, Deputy Haughey mentioned the recent agreement by European Council's justice ministers. In recognising our humanitarian obligations, we need to be stronger – how shall I put it sensitively? – on those who are not genuinely seeking asylum or fleeing war or persecution and may be economic migrants. To ensure that we retain the middle ground and social cohesion across all member states, we need to be vigilant in this regard and have robust systems to ensure those who need protection are protected and that there are consequences for those exploiting the system.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva: I thank the Deputy. There are several very important issues, and that is why I also mentioned artificial intelligence.

One of the tasks of Spain's EU Presidency is to get a regulation on artificial intelligence. We are not lagging behind; we are at the forefront. No other country in the world, including the US, is now addressing the issue in the way the European Union is. During the Spanish Presidency, we hope to achieve a regulation for artificial intelligence. It figures prominently in our dossiers and is one of the things we should attain, and we will be happy do so, during our Presidency.

I am glad the Deputy brought up the issue of artificial intelligence. Europe does not want to lag behind superpowers, mainly China and the US, and is doing the right thing, which is to find a regulation for this technology. As has been said, artificial intelligence has huge potential but it also comes with risks. Nothing in life comes without a price. If we want to be at the forefront of this technological revolution, we will have to make sure the negative aspects of artificial intelligence are tackled and addressed. I am glad to say this is happening and we hope to achieve it in a regulation during the Spanish Presidency.

The Deputy's reference to the environment and Mercosur gives me an opportunity to say we should all move, as we are doing with the Fit for 55 and Next Generation EU funds, to a green and digital economy, or the circular economy. Renewables are essential. We need to move away from fossil fuels. Ireland is still very dependent on fossil fuels but it has now understood that maritime-aeolic energy could be a solution for Europe. Spain was at the forefront of tapping the electrical market. In the beginning, it was considered just an Iberian solution for Portugal and Spain. We have now convinced the rest of Europe that we need to address the reform of the energy market and to promote renewables. This is an aspect in which Ireland and Spain could be great partners, as we are quite good at renewables. Spain has considerable experience and is one of the most ecological economies in Europe. We should abandon dependency on fossil fuels and bet on renewables.

There is also a risk in this. Citizens and a communication strategy to bring them closer to Europe were mentioned. Many citizens still do not understand that if we do not achieve the transition from fossil fuels to renewable energies fast enough, we may pay a price. There may be a temptation to go back to a carbon economy, or even a nuclear economy, which is not what we want or should have. Rest assured that for Spain these environmental concerns are essential.

We should also have sustainable agriculture. When it comes to agriculture, stock and farmers, we should also understand that there are sacrifices to be made because they also produce emissions. When we talk about Fit for 55, agriculture and stocks will have to be addressed if we want to have the sustainability we talk about.

In the case of Latin America, thank God Brazil is back on the scene and is doing its best to tackle environmental concerns and agricultural issues after a long time in which the deforestation of the Amazon was in every newspaper headline. We have to give support to Brazil, make it an ally and understand Brazilian concerns as much as they should understand our concerns. This is what an alliance is about.

On migration, I thank the Deputy for mentioning it. The Swedes have done a great job of putting on the table the agreement to which some countries have objected. Let us not forget that this is not an overall migration and asylum agreement and that we are more ambitious in our concern to encompass other aspects. These include rescue operations to avoid humanitarian catastrophes but also, as the Deputy noted when raising this very interesting topic, economic migrants. Unless we ensure our markets and economies are able to integrate these migrants, there is always a risk that populists will use the issue as a banner against the European Union, as a form of imposition. We have to make our citizens understand what demography and an ageing Europe mean but we also have to distinguish people who come here for economic reasons and who may or may not be good immigration applicants. Some countries have systems of quotas in which the market decides who comes in. This is just one option but we have to make sure that real asylum seekers get justice. Others, especially those who are working in collaboration with human traffickers, should not get into Europe. Even more important, we also have to make sure that we do not get any risky migrants who may be, in reality, terrorists working for jihadist groups or for other purposes.

This is a very different world from the one we had before the pandemic and the attacks on the Twin Towers. We have to make sure migrants get fair treatment and our economies, markets and societies are capable of integrating them well. This is the Achilles heel of the European Union. We are where we are; we are in the world. We are surrounded by threats from the east but also from the south, which is where most migrants come from. In the case of Spain, we believe that Latin Americans have integrated very well in our economy. We know Ireland has a lot of people from Brazil here, as well as other Latin Americans, and for various reasons they tend to integrate better in our societies. We share some values with them historically and therefore their integration is easier. That does not mean we should not pay attention to people who suffer most, those who come from Africa, the Middle East, war-torn zones and regions dramatically affected by climate change, with a lack of water and scarcities of all sorts. I agree with the Deputy that we should make sure migrants are also selected to avoid people who are, with good reason, looking for a better future but may not be good applicants for asylum or for quotas, but also people who may come here to disrupt our system through private agendas. It has happened in Spain. We have suffered great terrorist attacks, as have France, Britain and Belgium, and we strongly believe we should avoid cases like this because our population is very sensitive to the risks presented by some of these supposed migrants.

If members would like more information on what is happening on the artificial intelligence front, or on migration, I would be happy to send them all the information we have tomorrow.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Go raibh maith agat agus gracias, ambassador. I apologise if I repeat anything that has already been said. I needed to speak in the Dáil on the nature restoration law. As Deputy Howlin would say, I need to speak on everything. I made the point that we are dealing with multiple crises. Work on many of these issues is only possible on the basis of co-operation. I liked that the ambassador spoke in his opening statement about social and economic justice and migration. These issues are the Achilles heel of the European Union. We saw what happened with Brexit. There may have been people who yearned for long-lost empire but a huge number of people who felt they were on the periphery of British society were taken advantage of, in my view.

On the issue of strategic autonomy, we all know the issues that arise with regard to what the Americans are doing, we know that during the Covid-19 pandemic, we did not have a sufficient amount of semiconductors and then there is then the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis.

We need to sort it from the point of view of geopolitics and energy security but also on the bases of cost and climate change. It is about ensuring we do all that. I agree with the ambassador on migration, in the sense we also need to have a sensible conversation. Migration is here to stay. It is a fact of life. We could not operate without the people who come here to work in our hospitals and we need more people to build our houses at present. It is also about looking after both the social and economic needs of our people and there has at times been a failure across the EU to see that as being vital from the point of view of protecting the Union.

The ambassador spoke about Sudan and that shows direct solidarity. During the period of Brexit and the disasters that have followed, we appreciated that solidarity. We are in a different geopolitical situation now. We all know of the issues that exist because of the Russian invasion. Europe has shown itself to be much more resilient than I imagine Vladimir Putin was expecting. Accession for Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia is now a real conversation. The western Balkans probably feel they got a poor deal in recent years, while accepting there are particular issues that need to be dealt with as regards the rule of law. We dealt with this question recently and one of the issues that was thrown up to us was that Spain and a number of other states have not recognised Kosovo. This is just one of many issues and I accept that across the board, rule of law and the issues that exist with Hungary probably meant there was a general notion that we would get our house in order before considering letting anyone else in but we have to give people an option. No more than when there is talk of strategic autonomy, it is about delivering strategic autonomy and not screwing over Africa, poorer parts of Latin America and all the rest of it. We do not want to become an old-style empire.

We need to co-operate, to get on and all the rest of it and it is a best-case scenario that we all have our internal issues. It will not come as a shock that we want to see certain changes in the EU not very far from where we are sitting at the minute. Spain has its own issues and what we want to see is the engagement that needs to happen to bed down the peace process in the Basque country and proper engagement with the Catalonians. None of us are especially hurt by talking and engaging and that is all positive.

I have covered a sufficient amount there. It should take the ambassador a good five minutes to answer them all comprehensively.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I thank the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

If the ambassador can add to that in five minutes he is a very good man.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I will try my best. I thank the Deputy because he has given me the opportunity to address things that are not directly related to the EU Presidency but that are on everybody's mind when it comes to Spain. As I said before, we are concerned about this new world architecture and therefore we believe enlargement of the EU, whether it is to-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Apologies, there was something I should have mentioned as well. It was unfair of me. Spain has its particular issues with Britain due to Gibraltar. There are a lot of things we would like to see resolved across the board. It was unfair not to mention that.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

I thank the Deputy for the mention of Gibraltar. I will address that too, because it was a point discussed by the Taoiseach and our Prime Minister earlier this year. We are the only countries in the European Union that share a border or a fence, whatever one wants to call it, with the UK. We were following in detail the discussion that led to the Windsor framework agreement because it has implications for us. We also want to protect the Single Market from dumping and other illegalities we feel could take place in Gibraltar. Gibraltar is not Northern Ireland. It stands at the crossroads of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean. There are a number of worrying issues when it comes to the visits of nuclear submarines. Spain regularly makes a protest to the UK Government on these practices. There is also some smuggling going on. It is a hot spot for a lot of controversial topics. We followed closely what went on between the North here, the UK and the Irish Government. We were happy an agreement was reached. Ireland stands to have a great future if this is solved and if there is an Executive in place in the North, which is not the case now. Gibraltar is another kettle of fish altogether but the fact remains we have a border, which we call a fence because we do not accept it as a border. We think Gibraltar is part of Spain. This is a legacy of colonialism, like in the Irish case, and it should be overcome as UN resolutions have made clear a number of times, though to no avail. It is a serious problem for us.

Returning to the strategy, the Deputy mentioned a lot of topics for five minutes, but Spain is very aware we need enlargement. I say this knowing these countries may not be prepared to join the EU now and we may not be prepared to integrate them properly at this stage. However, it is now or never. We have to give them reassurance they can find some hope in joining the EU, whether that is Moldova, Ukraine, and later on Georgia or the western Balkans. As I said before talking about Latin America, if there is a vacuum it will be filled. As we have seen there are a number of strategic risks that could become a fundamental concern for all of us if we do not address the rest of Europe, including Kosovo. As the Deputy knows, there is a Spanish position, which is still there, of not accepting Kosovo. When you are with friends and allies you should be able to agree on things you disagree upon and this is a question on which we disagreed from the beginning. Kosovo is again in a dire situation with the Serbian communities within Kosovo. The Spanish Presidency will follow this very closely and do so on all our behalf, not just because of our position on Kosovo but to ensure human rights and minority rights are respected by Kosovars and by Serbia.

The Deputy mentioned the rule of law and it is an important issue. The EU Presidency, from a Spanish perspective, has as much to do on economic security and securing our borders as it has to do with values. Putin made it clear in that speech that he objects to the West and especially to Europe because of our values, which differ fundamentally from the ones he believes should be Russian values. We think that is absolutely wrong and he should show respect for minorities in Russia and for the rule of law. Unfortunately, this question of the rule of law is also fundamental to keeping European unity and not letting other countries take a perspective which is more likely to please Russia rather than being in a club where this is an obligation. The rule of law cannot be questioned.

The Deputy mentioned Catalonia and the Basque country. I am a Basque and a very proud Basque. The good thing about plurinational states like Spain is we were, in a way, the forerunners of the European Union.

We had historic nations and kingdoms and regions. Part of Spain was under Islamic rule. Spain is a very complex society. It is difficult to pin us down with mechanisms because we are a country that is used to civil wars and civil strifes and we have managed to stick together through thick and thin. There are episodes that have encompassed all of us such as the discovery of America or the American adventure. There are also unfortunately episodes where all of us were together such as the civil war. This makes the dearest objective to all Spaniards, whether they are Catalan, Basque, from Andalusia or Madrid, that we should co-exist peacefully. That is essential. That should be our main objective because of our history of difference and because, as I said, we are the forearm of the European Union in the sense that we encompassed different sovereignties when the historic kingdoms were in place and we have to pull together and get our act together in the same way that the European Union has different identities, traditions and histories. Some countries were under communist dictatorship for a long time. We were under a fascist dictatorship like others such as Portugal, Italy and Germany. When I discuss things with other colleagues, this comes to the surface. However, peaceful co-existence in Spain is essential. This is what makes some cases in the Basque Country and Catalonia so terrifying for most of Spaniards, and even for their own populations. The Catalonia of today has nothing to do with the Catalonia of 2017. Those dramatic episodes with the unilateral referendum and the repression thereafter, have, thank God, been overcome with common sense and a lot of concessions from both sides. As was seen in the last elections and even now recently, we now have a socialist mayor of Barcelona. That would have been unthinkable in 2017. We have a peaceful Catalonia today in which, of course, people who seek independence are as legitimate as people who oppose. This is a very divisive issue in Catalonia. It is not Catalans against Spaniards. Catalonia, as the members will know, is a bit like the Scottish case in which the population is very divided as to where they should go but all of them understand that unilateral solutions or repression is not the solution. We have to live together and to accept that some people want an independent Catalonia as much as people who want to stay in Spain because they think their identity should also be respected as Catalans and Spaniards. Some only feel Catalan; some only feel Spanish.

As for the Basque Country, as members will know, the question is even more terrifying because we, like Ireland, had a lot of armed struggle and political violence. It is difficult to live with that legacy. However, also in this case, through a lot of concessions and efforts, and victims and terrorists - and from each standpoint one gets a different story - the important thing is that we have moved forward. The issue of victims has been addressed. The question of accepting responsibility and asking for forgiveness has been put. We now have Euskal Herria Bildu in parliament whose members are heirs to Eusko Alkartasuna, a party which again was politically involved in the arms struggle and terrorist acts, and whose members now debate like any other party in parliament. I am very happy this is the case as a Basque, that we can live with no anonymous threats coming every day.

Catalonia is very different from 2017 as is certainly the Basque Country. Most of the population in the Basque Country are very happy with the home rule that it gets, which is substantially different from the rest of the federated regions or comunidad autónomas as we say. We have a special status that is respected by all Spanish parties and that has won the approval and support of 70% of the Basques. I remember the old days during our troubles when it was hell on earth for all kinds of people. There were victims on both sides and terrible episodes of human right breaches but all that is now history. In this, Spain stands together, having understood that we have to live with our differences whether they are ideological or due to different histories we have. I am very happy to say that we have a common approach. Everyone is in parliament. Even protestors of the 15-M Movement, who occupied Puerta del Sol square which led to Occupy Wall Street, are now Podemos–IU and Sumar and are part of the political spectrum. Spain has a lot of complexities but it also has this wonderful thing in that it is capable of absorbing differences, whether it is people who want independence or who are against the system, and we have shown the world we are capable of going through these crises that are recurrent. I do not say this is over. The debate of independence is certainly not over, whether in the Basque Country or in Catalonia and many solutions can be envisaged. However, fundamentally we all want to co-exist peacefully. We do not want unilateral moves or repression. That is what I have to say about this but I thank the members very much for mentioning the Gibraltar issue because it is something that is very dear to us and which we follow with great care. We are also very happy to be able to share the complexities of overcoming a legacy of colonialism with our Irish friends.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Go raibh maith agat. The ambassador need not worry, it is not a question. I put my Spanish connection-to-be on record. The fiancée of my stepson is from Madrid so most likely next year at some point he will be getting married there and I assume I will have to go.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

Good for you.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am looking forward to it. I just need to make sure it is not at a time of election or anything else.

H.E. Mr. Ion de la Riva

Good.

An Cathaoirleach

As someone who has been in Madrid on many occasions, it is a beautiful city at any time.

I thank the ambassador for coming before the committee today. We very much appreciate it. The thing I took from a lot of what he was saying, and the way the questions worked and the way he was answering really brought it home, is that interconnectivity between the central themes of the Presidency. I refer to how that interconnectivity between the importance of building the relationship out of the Mercosur agreement, out of the South American countries, how it ties into the whole question of migration, how the EU is perceived on a global basis, and how it ties into the green agenda. That interconnectivity can really be seen. No matter which road one goes down, it leads to the others because they are so important. That is something that is very important for us to take on board. I refer to that real first addressing of the need for re-industrialisation, the road of what will be a huge part of European politics over the coming decades, and it is very important it is given the attention and detail that is needed. I wish the ambassador's country and the Government, whichever Government it is before or after the election, the very best over the next few months and with the EU Presidency. There are so many positive things in what he has outlined today and obviously, this committee, as the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs, looks forward to our involvement in that process, as I know will the Government and the various institutions that will play their part over the coming months in working with Spain on these issues. I thank you all for attending. With that, I conclude the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.29 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 July 2023.