Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 2023

General Affairs Council: Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for EU affairs, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials. Today we will be discussing matters relating to the General Affairs Council. The General Affairs Council is responsible for ensuring consistency in the work of all European Council configurations. It prepares and follows up on meetings of the European Council. It is responsible for a number of cross-cutting policy areas which include EU enlargement and accession negotiations, the adoption of the multi-annual financial framework, cohesion policy matters, issues regarding the EU's institutional setup, and any dossier entrusted to it by the European Council. That is a fairly broad remit.

Before we begin, I want to do a little bit of housekeeping on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. Members are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings.

I will call on the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, to make his opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Peter Burke)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. I am very pleased to be before the committee again this morning to discuss the General Affairs Council. I have attended its two most recent meetings. The regular General Affairs Council took place on 19 September, and the main item for discussion was preparation for the European Council, which will take place on 26 and 27 October.

The intention at this stage is that the European Council will focus on the principal issues, namely, Ukraine, the mid-term review of the EU multi-annual financial framework, MFF, economic issues and migration. However, in light of events over the weekend, it may be that leaders will discuss developments in the Middle East and the conflict which has now erupted between Israel and Hamas.

Along with my colleagues, I attended an informal pre-General Affairs Council, GAC, breakfast on 19 September with the Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for European and Euro-Atlantic Integration. It was a useful opportunity to reaffirm Ireland's and the EU’s continued full support for Ukraine and its people, in the face of the continued unjustified Russian aggression.

Our full support for Ukraine includes continued financial support. Ireland is happy to support the provision of additional funding for Ukraine through the mid-term review of the MFF and the introduction of a Ukraine facility comprising 50% of the total additional expenditure proposed. Our general position on the MFF review is that all existing flexibilities within the current 2021-2027 multi-annual financial framework should be fully exhausted before any new funding, besides that proposed for Ukraine, is provided or there is any major rearrangement of the MFF, which was a delicately balanced agreement.

Migration continues to be a major priority for the EU, as was evident from the discussion which took place at the informal European Council in Granada last week. While it was unfortunate that all leaders could not agree on specific language on migration, this should not mask the fact that there has been some significant progress in recent weeks through the agreement reached last week within the Council on the general approach to govern the crisis and force majeure regulation, the final remaining legislative element of the migration and asylum pact to be agreed by the Council.

This was a very welcome development and one which has improved the prospects for overall agreement on the migration and asylum pact being achieved before the end of the current legislative period next April. The need for such a comprehensive approach as the pact offers for addressing the myriad of complex issues arising in relation to migration becomes clearer with every passing day.

In addition to discussing the draft annotated agenda for this month's European Council, the GAC also examined a proposal tabled by Spain to include Catalan, Basque and Galician as official languages of the EU. There was a large measure of support for the proposal from member states, including Ireland, given the importance placed both on multilingualism and encouraging the greatest possible access by all EU citizens to the EU and its institutions. However, we also joined the many other member states who sought additional information on any potential legal, political or administrative implications and it was ultimately agreed to refer the proposal to the Committee of Permanent Representatives to review the proposal in more detail.

Other items discussed at the 19 September Council included the Commission's legislative programming for the coming year with member states broadly welcoming the emphasis placed on improving the EU's competitiveness, continued support for Ukraine and the green transition.

Ministers held the Council's annual rule of law dialogue as well as addressing the ongoing evaluation of the dialogue which is currently under way. Ireland remains strongly supportive of the dialogue and of the annual rule of law reviews undertaken by the Commission as very important instruments in efforts to ensure member states adhere to their obligations in this area.

I look forward to discussing the most recent rule of law review of Ireland at this month's General Affairs Council in Luxembourg and responding to comments and questions posed by partners.

A major focus of discussion at the GAC was the issue of enlargement and how the EU should begin to prepare for expanding to a possible Union of 35-37 member states. Over lunch at the GAC, Ministers heard from two members of an independent Franco-German expert group which recently produced a report and recommendations on the issue of institutional reform.

This discussion then continued at the informal General Affairs Council, which I attended in Murcia on 27-28 September, where the issue of enlargement and the future of Europe was essentially the only item discussed. Committee members will appreciate that an active discussion is now under way at EU level on this issue, with it also having figured significantly in leaders' discussion at last week's informal European Council in Granada.

Ireland very much welcomes and appreciates the need to start discussing the implications of enlargement, and the reforms which will be necessary for an expanded union. There will clearly be a major impact on the European Union budget and on policies, such as CAP and cohesion. We will also need to look at areas such as our current decision-making capacity and how to maintain the effectiveness of the EU’s standing in the international arena. In this emerging debate, we should never forget the manifold benefits of enlargement or its strategic and geopolitical importance. Discussions of our absorption capacity and changes that may prove necessary should not delay or impede enlargement.

In relation to the Franco-German report, it offers a very detailed analysis and some quite radical suggestions as to how the EU might be reformed in advance of the next phase of enlargement. However, the report places a very welcome emphasis on the primacy of the rule of law as a fundamental principle for all members and prospective members of the European Union.

On two final notes in relation to last month's regular General Affairs Council, I had a useful bilateral discussion with my Swedish counterpart, Ms Jessika Roswall, on the margins of the Council to discuss the MFF review while under any other business, Ministers expressed strong solidarity with both Slovenia and Greece following extreme weather events over the summer in both countries, due to heavy flooding in the case of Slovenia and wildfires and natural disasters in Greece.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Cathaoirleach and Members. I am happy to take any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a number of members indicating they wish to speak. Before I call the first of those, which would be Deputy Howlin, there is one aspect I wish to raise because no doubt we will have a focus this morning on what is happening in Israel.

In relation to the conclusion of the Minister of State's speech, I want to put on record my own particular view on this. The Macron proposal or so-called the Franco-German proposal, with the exception of the rule of law which the Minister of State quite correctly highlighted, is one of the most unacceptable proposals that I have seen coming out of Franco-German thinking in a long time in relation to the European Union. It is not a path for the European Union. It is a path to the dissolution of the European Union as we know it today. Whether one dresses it up or dresses it down, in concentric circles, rings or whatever way they want to phrase it, it would result in a situation where the current structure and entity that is the European Union would be completely undermined. It also, I believe, has a major implication for enlargement because it is difficult to see how one would have an enlargement process where one would be effectively offering membership status to countries on the basis of them being in a ring that is somewhere next to Jupiter's, Saturn's or something like that which would be so far out from the centre.

I wanted to put that on record. The Minister of State does not necessarily need to respond. I think it is important that small countries, particularly at an early stage, have their views heard in relation to what has been proposed in that.

Sorry, I did not mean to go on as long as that. Anyway, I call Deputy Howlin, who is the first Deputy.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I thank the Chair. As the Chair stated in his introduction, the GAC covers a broad range of areas, all of which are critical. Most of us will focus on the immediate crisis in the Middle East now but I want to touch upon the very point the Chair made on the Franco-German group. I had a parliamentary question about it last week. I want to talk about migration but, first, I want to get from the Minister of State, because there was a Foreign Affairs Council meeting yesterday, the most up-to-date position in relation to a number of matters.

Most of us were very taken aback. I suppose I should say without equivocation that this committee should condemn completely and totally the savage attack on the people of Israel by Hamas. The latest count is 1,200 dead people, from infants to elderly people, and the number is growing as they find more bodies. These were people who were hunted down in their own homes in many instances, and others, by and large young people who were simply enjoying themselves, who were attacked at a music event. It was a degree of savagery we have not seen in a very long time.

The response from Israel - all of us issued statements on Sunday - has to be proportionate.

It has the right to defend itself against Hamas. There is no doubt about that and we join in solidarity and support in that objective. The evil that was perpetrated is unprecedented. However, the response must be proportionate and restrained. The cordoning off of the Gaza area, basically placing it under siege and removing the right to water, electricity and fuel, is absolutely unacceptable. There are 2.3 million people corralled into an area that is barely able to sustain them now. We are heading towards an unimaginable humanitarian crisis if the policy of siege continues and the basic means of living are deprived. I note the commentary we heard from the EU Commissioner for Neighbourhood and Enlargement, Commissioner Várhelyi, which I understood was immediately withdrawn because he has no legal right to unilaterally state that the European Union will withdraw humanitarian aid for Palestine. I welcome the subsequent statement of the EU High Representative Josep Borrell that the siege is contrary to international law. I am anxious to hear the Minister of State's views on these matters and on what initiatives we, as a nation and in the context of our membership of the European Union, can take now to stop what could potentially be an unimaginable human catastrophe, particularly if there is a ground invasion of Gaza. Will he also comment on the status of the Irish-Israeli citizen Kim Damti? Is there any update on her status? Are there any other Irish citizens either in Israel or Gaza who have sought consular support or assistance? If there are such persons, will the Minister of State indicate the numbers to us so that we will know how many Irish citizens are directly involved in this?

Colleagues will want to make other points about this issue but the main task for us now is to see how we can, with our history, seek to assist in bringing peace. Otherwise, there are other malevolent actors in Lebanon and Iran who may well involve themselves in an ever-enlarging war that would have catastrophic consequences not only for the people of Palestine and Israel but for the world at large. We may want to concentrate on that first. I have two other questions to ask. Will I park them at this point?

An Cathaoirleach

It may be easier for the flow of the meeting if we split the discussion into two areas. We will deal with Israel first and then-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I want to deal with enlargement and migration but we can come back to those issues.

An Cathaoirleach

-----enlargement. I hazard a guess that the other members will probably have linked questions on this issue. Will the Minister of State respond first to Deputy Howlin before we move to the next speaker?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank Deputy Howlin. As he correctly pointed out, the news over the past number of days has been distressing. We saw a terrorist attack in the first instance. The Deputy spoke about an Irish citizen and I can confirm we are providing consular assistance directly to the family in question. We are liaising with the Israeli authorities but I have no further update on that. It is common practice in the Department of Foreign Affairs not to go into the detail of specific consular cases but we can assure the Deputy we are working very closely with the family, as we are with all our citizens in the region whom we have advised to check in with the embassy.

Regarding the attack on the Supernova festival, hundreds of children were present there on very flat land with no buildings or shelter. We have seen the horrific circumstances that occurred. We have to work hard now and call for a de-escalation. We are very clear about the right of the Israeli state to defend itself but that must also be proportionate and fully in line with international humanitarian law. It must reflect that we are talking about Gaza, an area approximately 42 km in length, 12 km at its widest point and one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It must also reflect the circumstances that surround any decision made to launch an attack there and that civilian lives are in danger. We are appealing for a de-escalation and have done so through the Foreign Affairs Council. The Tánaiste has had a number of meetings in the past few days in which he called for this, with his counterparts in Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, and we will continue to do that.

We need to ensure a siege with loss of life does not happen because that would be catastrophic. The bombing of the corridor to Egypt exacerbates what potentially could happen here. We have to focus on giving more aid through the competent authorities and by working with the UN and NGOs. Approximately 80% of Palestinian citizens rely on aid for their public services, schools, clean water, and all the key things that keep society functioning in some shape or form under very stressful and difficult circumstances. We will continue to do that and be that voice.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

What is the EU's position?

Deputy Peter Burke

The European Union position is-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I refer to the contradiction between the statement of the Commissioner-----

Deputy Peter Burke

As the Deputy rightly pointed out, the Commissioner had no legal basis to say what he did in a particular tweet. The Government contacted the European Union very quickly to ask it to clarify the tweet issued by the Commissioner and later that evening a statement issued pointing out that this was not a suspension of aid in any shape or form. We know the EU has stated a review will be commenced. Our view, which we have made very clear, is that this needs to be very quick. We do not want to see any reduction in aid or key funding. Some €1.1 billion over a five-year period is earmarked for the region and we want to continue with and strengthen that aid because of what we are faced with now. We have been strongly calling for that. We know there are certain circumstances around the EU and that we are operating in a challenging environment with elections in different countries. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, there are destabilising factors in the region with potential Iranian funding of Hezbollah and Hamas. It means putting a very complex jigsaw together but we will keep trying to increase humanitarian aid, and continue calling for de-escalation and working with leaders in the region.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Carthy is next if he wants to comment on this issue.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I had some other questions-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will repeat the sequence in the same order when we go back for the European Union question.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I will go over and back with my questions because the answers to one question may negate the need for another. At the outset, I will state that what happened on Saturday and the actions of Hamas were absolutely deplorable, unjustifiable and should be condemned unequivocally by all right-thinking people. Hamas breached several international laws on Saturday and the primacy of international law and the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights should be the basis of the Irish response to all of this. Does the Minister of State agree that the Commission overreached? I refer to the statement of one Commissioner regarding stalling development aid to the Palestinian Authority, a body which has as little as anybody else to do with Hamas, but also regarding the actions of the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, and her biased, I would argue, partisan remarks on the conflict as well as her decision to project the flag of a state which at that moment was engaged in the bombing of a civilian area in Gaza. Does the Minister of State agree that this was an overreach on the part of the Commission and has the Irish Government conveyed that view to the Commission?

Deputy Peter Burke

I think I was very clear in my response to Deputy Howlin that once the tweet was issued, the Irish Government immediately responded to the Commission to clarify the remarks. We are very clear that this was a unilateral response. It is not how the Commission operates.

It is not how the Foreign Affairs Council takes decisions by qualified majority voting in allocating funding such as this. We made that very clear. It is very important to reflect on the statement High Representative Borrell made yesterday, which I would argue is a very strong one, following his meeting with the members of the Foreign Affairs Council. He underscored the fact that more aid and more support are needed in such a region because what could happen in the coming days is unthinkable and very concerning for the international community.

Deputy Matt Carthy

What about the response of the European Commission in general, which has been to project a very partisan view, without any reference in a statement from it that I have heard, to international law and the need to adhere to it?

Deputy Peter Burke

Ireland has been very clear and consistent in its support, in the first instance, in the UN General Assembly. We have Government approval for a statement on the prolonged occupation and looking at how we can hold Israel to account in the International Court of Justice for how it has increased its settlements in the occupied territories in addition to many issues concerning the treatment of refugees. We are working on all of that through diplomatic channels. I imagine this will be front and centre at the European Council. The leaders will be in the room with the President of the Commission making their views known.

I am clear in my mind that the tweet was very unhelpful. It is not the way the Commission should be doing business.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I accept that the Minister of State replied but my specific question related to the Commission President.

Deputy Peter Burke

With respect, I cannot speak directly on her behalf. We are the political arm.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I am asking specifically about the Irish Government's response to her actions.

Deputy Peter Burke

I did reply. I said that in the European Council we will be consistent in our view, as we have been. We have a very strong track record in supporting de-escalation. I spoke about what we are doing through the UN General Assembly. I also spoke about holding Israel to account. I am pointing out what the Irish State is continuing to do. That is our political arm and the forum for it is at the European Council.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I think this committee would be united in saying that we welcome the position the Irish Government consistently takes in vocalising the need for international law to be upheld and advocating for the rights of Palestinians, in particular in an international context where there does not seem to be too many western governments that are willing to do that. I am also struck by how much Ireland appears to be in a minority in the EU Council. The reason I think this is profoundly important is that the Tánaiste, for example, has cited the need for EU consensus before we can formally adhere to the decision of both Houses of the Oireachtas to recognise the state of Palestine. The Irish Government could not get agreement in the Foreign Affairs Council for its call for a de-escalation, as just described by the Minister of State. There could not be agreement across EU foreign ministers on a call for a de-escalation and lives to be saved in the region and calling on all sides to adhere to international law. Does the Minister of State accept that in some instances there will be a requirement for Ireland to take initiatives to present to the world our abhorrence of the breaches of international law, whether they are committed by Hamas or the Israeli state?

Deputy Peter Burke

First, I think the High Representative did call for de-escalation. It is very important-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes, it is, and welcome.

Deputy Peter Burke

-----that we de-escalate and be a voice of reason in that regard. I cannot speak for my European partners or other EU member states. Each country has its own view on the region and those are very well articulated.

What was the Deputy's last question?

Deputy Matt Carthy

It was in respect of the need for Ireland to take actions and initiatives outside of the EU Council when it is clear that the EU Council is not going to be willing to take the type of initiatives needed, such as recognising the state of Palestine and other initiatives that would send a clear message that we do not support the preferential treatment of states that breach international law.

Deputy Peter Burke

Deputy Carthy can see our track record. Over the past year, we have issued a number of statements through the Tánaiste on the occupation of the West Bank. We have been very clear in our condemnation of that. On 7 April and 9 May last, the Tánaiste issued statements.

Our views have been raised at the highest level of forum, which in our case is at the Foreign Affairs Council, and through the European Council as well. We have tried to see the horizon of a two-state solution, which unfortunately seems so far away now. We committed to a high political dialogue on 8 March with the Palestinian Authority. We are trying to build consensus between the parties to achieve mutual respect, which is very difficult now in the region.

An Cathaoirleach

I am conscious of the time.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I will move to my final few questions. The Minister of State mentioned building consensus across the EU. There are EU ministers who in my view have vocalised a narrative that will prolong and escalate the crisis we have seen. We often hear it framed in language to the effect that Israel has the right to defend itself. Any state is entitled to defend itself against violence and aggression. That language is often used by others in the context of the siege that we are now seeing being imposed on a place that has been blockaded since 2007, namely, Gaza. The stated aim of the Israeli defence minister is to essentially starve and prevent from accessing essential services the people of Gaza, who were described as "human animals", and engage in a bombing campaign and potential ground invasion that will cost thousands of innocent lives. The Minister of State repeated the phrase that Israel has the right to defend itself in his response to Deputy Howlin. What does that mean in real terms? I recognise the abhorrence we all share about the taking of innocent life, but are there any circumstances in which he would say that Palestine has the right to defend itself and what that would look like in real terms?

Deputy Peter Burke

I am just articulating international law. Every state has the right to defend itself, but I was very clear that that right comes with responsibilities for the unique position that the region is in, the position in which Palestine finds itself and the way Gaza is constructed. Two million citizens are living there and there are being subjected to risks. Actions must be in compliance with international humanitarian law. I am pointing out the actual facts of the situation. I am very clear about what Ireland needs to do. Ireland has to be the voice of reason and try to get as much aid as we can for people who are going to be very vulnerable in terms of the damage that will be done to their infrastructure and to which so many of them will be exposed. We will try to get the funding increased. We will also work with our counterparts in the region. We have had a number of visits to the region and we have tried to make an effort to build consensus. The situation is very complex and it is difficult to achieve consensus. Unfortunately, we are now in a very uncertain situation and that is going to be the case, but Ireland will continue to work to support the people in the region. When we look at the death toll in Palestine in the first quarter compared to last year, there has been a sixfold increase in the number of people injured and a threefold increase in the number of victims killed, which is horrific.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I think we have had a good discussion on this matter. I agree with the approach outlined by the Minister of State. At the outset, I also condemn unequivocally the barbaric acts undertaken by Hamas in Israel and the atrocities that have been carried out there.

Over the weekend, I was very taken aback by the statements on withholding development co-operation funding or EU humanitarian aid. I am delighted that has been clarified. I note that the mission of the state of Palestine in Ireland tweeted thanks yesterday to Ireland for blocking the plan to suspend financial aid to the Palestinian Authority. It was blocked by Spain, Denmark, Ireland and Luxembourg. The Minister of State might say something about that.

I presume that was at the meeting of the EU foreign ministers yesterday. It highlights, however, how the EU just cannot seem to adopt a common approach on this issue. This is extremely disappointing. It is important that Ireland continues to articulate our policy at EU level in respect of displacement and resettlement and all that is happening in the West Bank and the occupied Palestinian territories. I implore the Minister of State, and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, to recognise that we need to continue, at an EU level, to try to get consensus, achieve the famous two-state solution and initiate a peace process. In particular, I refer to highlighting the injustices continually being imposed on the Palestinian people. I despair that we just cannot seem to get a common position at EU level concerning these matters on an ongoing basis. I implore that Ireland would continue to do what it is doing and try to recruit new member states to its point of view.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank Deputy Haughey. I concur with his sentiments. We are operating in a difficult space, and there are some aspects which are more uncertain. Ireland, however, will continue to be that voice that the Deputy referred to. This is the approach the Tánaiste took when he went to the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council yesterday. I refer to ensuring that funding was going to continue and that the statement made by the High Representative was going to reflect this, and not only reflect it but also that there would be the continued support we need to give in future to a region that will be in an extremely difficult position in the days to come. As the Deputy said, it does not bear to think about what could happen. We will continue to undertake this work and collaborate with our counterparts. The Tánaiste had several meetings over the last 24 hours with the representatives of other countries in the region, like Jordan, to try to provide a pathway, if we can, to de-escalate what is happening there and to work to progress a solution. We must be honest, though, that it is very difficult.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I add my voice to the contributions stating that nobody could stand over the savagery and barbarism carried out by Hamas in Israel. As Deputy Carthy said, it was an absolute breach of international law. This must be our starting point. I agree with everyone that there is a certain element of despondency concerning where we go from here. We welcome some of the actions taken by the Government. It seems that Ireland, Denmark and Luxembourg were not able to get the EU statement to deal with what we would like to see, which is a de-escalation from the Israelis. This is worrying in respect of what sort of agreement we will be able to get in future.

I am worried, on some level, regarding some of what is coming from some European states, certain commissioners and Ursula von der Leyen, that there is an element of a green light. When we are talking about international laws, we all know that Israel has a long history of violating them. We all know the issues we have called out in the Oireachtas regarding the annexation and stealing of Palestinian land. We are all aware of Gaza being an open prison. Let us be clear. We have heard much commentary about the fact that this is the greatest intelligence failure since the Yom Kippur War in 1973. For all that Israel has supposedly done to protect itself, it has failed to protect its people. It has created a set of circumstances not beneficial to anybody, not to the Palestinian people, nor to its own people, who have suffered acts of extreme barbarity that nobody could stand over.

What we would all like to see, and I think there would be absolute agreement on this point, would be some sort of international intervention from the perspective of returning to some roadmap regarding a two-state settlement. I do not see that happening now. I put it to the Minister of States that what we are looking at now is collective punishment. We are hearing Benjamin Netanyahu talking about reshaping the Middle East. I am not entirely sure what that means. If we just look at what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh, however, some 120,000 people were displaced like that and the world moves on very quickly. We are talking about 260,000 Palestinians having already been displaced. We are talking about the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, UNRWA, and all the other elements of the UN saying they can barely deal with what they are dealing with now. Everybody is fearful of a ground invasion.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, has spoken many times before about the fact that he wants to get some sort of engagement with others from the perspective of undertaking joint initiatives in respect of the recognition of Palestine and other things we would like to see and think need to happen. Otherwise, we will have a continuity of what we have seen happening to date, which has not suited anybody. Who are we engaging with in this regard? I imagine it is everybody. I assume, however, that we all believe some of the players who may have been on to pursue these types of endeavours would have included Denmark, Luxembourg and Spain. I would like to know if we are going to continue with this work.

If nobody else is willing to move, though, we then come back to the question posed by Deputy Carthy. Are we going to act? I ask this because what we have had to date has been an abject failure, particularly for the Palestinian people, but also for the Israelis. For all their security apparatus and apartheid walls, they have not been able to defend and protect themselves. We really need an intervention that benefits people, as opposed to, as I said, increased security and the possibility of a ground invasion. Everyone is talking about humanitarian corridors. Gaza is an area the size of County Louth that is completely surrounded. The bombs are going in and we think the tanks are also eventually going to go in, while the borders will remain sealed. I dread to think how that is going to work out.

Deputy Peter Burke

As I committed to and have pointed out, Ireland will continue to be a strong advocate to try to deliver a two-state solution. Even to say this now is a major challenge. We were the first EU state to lead in advocating a two-state solution when we produced a joint declaration with Bahrain in 1980. We have continued to work with like-minded partners. We have continued to be a leader in this field in respect of trying to devise a solution in an extremely complex region. We will continue to do so with like-minded countries and try to build consensus in a very challenging environment.

We have had several meetings and continue to have bilateral meetings regarding efforts in this regard. The EU's special representative, Eamon Gilmore, has been in the region this year as well. He has been in both areas trying to work on building consensus. We have also seen the Tánaiste visiting the region. As he pointed out in the Dáil, or in a recent interview, let us just think about what is happening now in the context of what he experienced in the region during his visit. It is so horrific to see the circumstances that have developed in recent days. We will, though, continue to do our very best.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Just on-----

An Cathaoirleach

No, I am going to move on, if the Deputy does not mind. Everybody will be coming back in again, I have no doubt. I call Senator Chambers.

Senator Lisa Chambers

We will be coming back in then to talk about the actual statements-----

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, it will be about the regular European engagement side of things. In this round, we are trying to focus on-----

Senator Lisa Chambers

Israel and Palestine.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Senator Lisa Chambers

I thank the Minister of State. I will echo much of what was said by my colleague, Deputy Haughey. I listened to the Tánaiste speaking on "Morning Ireland" and "Ireland AM". He was asked about what is happening in the Middle East, which he recently visited. He made the very good point that there is a tendency to move on quickly from what happened on Saturday to talk about the current situation in Palestine and the Israeli retaliation, which can only be described as trying to seek vengeance. It is important to point out, though, that what happened on Saturday was appalling. I refer to the level of cruelty and barbarism, the indiscriminate murder and gunning down of innocent civilians and the killing of infants in front of their parents. It is unimaginable how any human being could do that to another with that level of cruelty. The footage we have seen gives us an almost eyewitness account of what happened. It is something that can never be unseen. It is absolutely horrific.

The death toll there is rising, but I think it was over 1,200 people as of this morning. God help them, because it is an awful situation. It has been described as Israel's 9-11. It is important that a distinction is drawn between Hamas and the Palestinian people. They are not one and the same. The Palestinian people have no choice in terms of who they elect, if we can even put it that way. I reiterate that the Palestinian people and Hamas are distinct. Hamas is a criminal, terrorist organisation that has perpetrated war crimes on the Israeli people and this can never be forgotten.

That is why the Minister of State says Israel has a right to defend itself. Of course it does, but that is in the context of the Geneva Convention and international law and must be proportionate. What is happening to the Gazan people needs to be dealt with at a humanitarian level and with an international response that is measured. To open humanitarian corridors to get to people in Gaza, to look for a de-escalation and a ceasefire and to try to have peace talks is the Irish position and the Government position, and that has always been our position. We want a two-state solution. Hamas's stated position, however, is to wipe Israel off the face of the planet. That is its sole goal. It is very difficult to see currently how a negotiation can take place between the Israeli Government and Hamas, given that one clearly has no intention of talking to the other. One could argue that the current Government of Israel has no intention of peace talks either, which is a very difficult place to be as well. It is important, from an Irish perspective, that we play a key role at a European level to ensure that aid gets into Palestine and that we do everything we can, working not just with the EU and the US, which are clear stakeholders in this, but also with the key players in the Middle East: Egypt, Jordan and the surrounding countries. They are crucial to brokering a deal. We have, I think, a good base from a European Union level to try to broker peace and to look for a ceasefire. The idea that we would cut off aid was maybe a rush of blood to the head in the aftermath of what happened at the weekend. Calm and sense have prevailed, and we can go to a different space.

I would welcome the Minister of State's comments on the aftermath of almost a divided Union in respect of that issue and where we move after this and then, from an Irish Government perspective, how we ensure we get aid to the Palestinian people and into Gaza. Are we having any conversations with Egypt or other actors in the Middle East through our European Union channels? I know the Minister for Foreign Affairs is joining a Zoom call today with other ministers to discuss matters. I would welcome the Minister of State's comments on that.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely. The Senator rightly articulated the horrendous attack that unfolded at that concert, where there were so many innocent civilians. That is who there will be there. There will be families enjoying their day in an area which had no cover and no buildings. It is very flat land, as I said earlier. We have seen the horrific circumstances that unfolded and the very distressing images from that-----

Senator Lisa Chambers

And an Irish citizen, Kim Damti, missing.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely. As I said earlier, we are providing consular assistance to her family, and our thoughts and prayers are with them at this time because it will be a very difficult time.

As Senator Chambers rightly said, Ireland has been to the forefront in trying to build consensus, working with our European partners, and trying to be that voice of humanitarian assistance to ensure there are as many channels as possible. The competent authorities to deliver aid into the region are the UN and the NGOs, and we have to continue to work through that mechanism. It concerns me to see the number of attacks and bombings, like those on the corridor into Egypt. That will be vital in the days and weeks ahead. If there is any further destruction or if that becomes more compromised than it already is, that will present a huge challenge.

I do not know the programme of calls the Tánaiste has today but I do know that in recent days, he has been very busy interacting with countries in the region and with other foreign ministers, again trying to advance peace and de-escalation and ensure that aid gets to those who really need it at this time. We will continue to do that in the days ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Martin.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

I concur with other contributors and recognise that the Tánaiste and the Government were out very promptly, as, I think, were all political parties represented in these Houses, in condemning the barbaric slaughter of innocent people. A ceasefire, a de-escalation, a release of all the hostages and an opening of the humanitarian corridors are absolute imperatives. For words of condemnation to have true meaning and credibility, they must be consistent. It is disappointing that in other quarters, not from these Houses, people could not bring themselves to condemn such slaughter, notwithstanding the deep pain, upset and unfairness that has been inflicted on them in the past. Brutal murder is brutal murder. If Israel wishes to raze the Gaza Strip to the ground, which it may have the might to do, it will act only as a recruitment sergeant for further insurgents.

Ireland, as a credible broker, must get that message across. Ireland has a track record in peace negotiation. Can we share those skills? Ireland has its own political goals. I, like many, would like to see a united Ireland. The best friend of achieving that goal has been the silencing of the bombs and guns. If only that message could get across to other people. What is already a powder keg is now on a knife-edge. There has to be maximum restraint. Long-term solutions, while laudable, seem so far away this morning. Can Ireland's influence and voice, in its own right and in the EU, be heard to stop this carnage from further escalating? How exactly can we get that message across? It might seem common-sense from here but in other parts of the world it is not. Like so many from all political quarters in this country, I am deeply worried and concerned about the short-term future. We have condemned Israel's unprovoked, disproportionate response of violence in the past. We have to be consistent in condemning this huge slaughter. It is Israel's 9-11. Can that voice of Ireland be heard through the Minister of State and the Tánaiste? Our country has a deep concern about what is happening in the Middle East and always had. I just worry. Now is the time for a country such as Ireland to stand up like never before and our important voice to be heard and to be effective.

Deputy Peter Burke

I assure Senator Martin that that will be the case. As I said before, we are leaders on this in the European Union as a country that first advocated the two-state solution that is now EU policy. We have shown our track record in bringing others together. That is what Ireland will focus on over the days and weeks ahead, trying to respect human life, trying to ensure that aid gets to those who need it most and trying to encourage and demand that Israel respect international humanitarian law and that it realise the implications of ongoing attacks. As I said, one has to be very much aware of the particular circumstances of the Gaza Strip and how many civilians are there, in a very densely populated area. The unthinkable, to starve them of energy or clean water, and all the infrastructural damage that can be done in such a populated area come with huge challenges in terms of loss of life. We have to be very reflective on that. We will continue to work with our counterparts trying to de-escalate the situation over the days and weeks ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

I will make a couple of comments in this round. It goes without saying - we have all said it here in our condemnation - that what we saw at the weekend was the most barbaric act of terrorism the world has witnessed in many decades. It is right to link it back to the impact of 9-11. There is, however, a level of sheer lacking in humanity in the recording of murder for the purpose of publicising it and the accounts I have heard of people deliberately filming barbaric murder so as to be able then to post it to publicise their so-called agenda or cause. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. I do not believe it represents the people of Palestine. Like a lot of terrorist organisations, it appropriates flags belonging to people and countries to try to make them their own. At its heart it is a pure terrorist organisation that has engaged in the slaughter of children, babies, grandparents and every age in between.

We need to be very careful as a country and a Government now. I thank the Minister of State for his remarks on so many levels.

We have an incredibly proud tradition, which is unequalled within the European Union. It is not just this Government and its immediate predecessor, and particularly the work of the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney. A number of Irish Governments over many years have been a strong voice for Palestine but, at the same time, we have been viewed as a country that reaches out to all and has a relationship with Israel, the United States and our fellow EU members that share a different perspective from us. Unilateral action, which we might take, might sound appealing or have a soundbite element to it, would take Ireland out of the strong position it spent many decades achieving of being able to reach between the parties, be an honest broker and be viewed as such by all sides. It would be very damaging. We must guard against that. We must use our influence, as was said, and I hope we will, to emphasise not just the continuation of EU aid but its enhancement. I saw, on a number of occasions, when I had the privilege of working in the Department, the work we do in our aid programme and the work we have pioneered. Indeed, some of that work has been destroyed by Israeli military actions from time to time. When people - and it is people are talking about - are at risk of one of the most catastrophic crises if there is a ground invasion, it is imperative on the EU and Ireland at that point not to even contemplate the notion of a reduction in aid but to look at how we could come to their aid and increase our support. That is the role we must play while supporting the two-state solution. I particularly urge the Government to support developing an opening on the Egyptian side. We have good relations with Egypt. We cannot have a situation in which millions of people are trapped with the unbelievable horror of what a ground war would entail for them. The only tangible solution available is for us to use our good offices to try to ensure that a corridor is opened that allows people to leave for their own safety.

I particularly urge people in Ireland who have a perspective on this. We need to remember at heart of this that unlike the government of the West Bank and unlike other organisations, some of which started as terrorist organisations but moved to wanting to create a peace with Israel, all Hamas wants to do, by its stated own objective, is to destroy the state of Israel. You cannot talk to people who want to destroy you, whose only goal is your destruction and have shown, as part of that, that they will murder your children. I commend what the European Commission has done so far. High Representative Borrell has done an excellent job and the Commission President has been very strong and clear. I urge our Government to maintain that central role of being the honest broker that can reach out to all sides within the EU and in the greater world through the UN. I thank the Minister of State. I propose that I go back to Deputy Howlin and that we have a discussion on more general European issues, which are also in the Minister of State's area of responsibility.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is an awful lot more we could say on the first topic but we will have opportunities again. Please god, we will not be talking about an even worse situation at that stage. I wish to raise two other issues with the Minister of State. One is the issue touched upon by the Chairman in his opening remarks, the Franco-German group paper discussed at the most recent General Affairs Council, GAC. I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister for Foreign Affairs about this the day after and he basically said they had not formulated a view. The Chair put it in more striking terms than I would but I share his deep concern at the position paper and whether it has any traction because it is moving away from qualified majority voting. It establishes a two-tier European Union with two different categories of Commissioners. We have to be clear in our view on that. We have had referendums on these matters before, we made pledges to the people of Ireland on putting questions again and, for example, the EU Constitution was redrafted not to diminish the right of every member state to have a stand-alone Commissioner. We will have an opportunity, I have no doubt, to look in detail at this but it is important that these issues do not take legs and make progress without proper oversight and input, particularly from small nations such as us.

My second question relates to the migration discussions that took place at the most recent Foreign Affairs Council. The position in terms of what seemed to be a consensus was that there would be a quota-sharing arrangement across the Union, which two member states opposed. We did not oppose it but we did not say we would take our percentage share of migrants from countries that are clearly at the front end of receiving enormous numbers of migrants, such as Italy, particularly the island of Lampedusa, and Greece and Spain. The Taoiseach responded subsequently to indicate that somehow we would make a financial contribution, like a headage payment, instead of taking a quota. I am interested to hear exactly what the Irish position is on that matter and what the status of the proposal is right now. Is it subject to further ratification? When is it likely to be implemented?

Deputy Peter Burke

To provide a bit of context on the Franco-German group, it is, in theory, a group of independent experts. As very clearly stated on the front of its paper, it does not reflect the positions of the German or French Governments. In addition, on our General Affairs Council, we have a number of different-----

An Cathaoirleach

How many independent reports end up being discussed over lunch at the council-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

By GAC.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is what I am coming to. There are a number of formulations from different groups of countries that bring proposals together about institutional reform and what the merit-based approach should look like, considering current geopolitical uncertainties, especially with Ukraine. The Lithuanian minister and a number of experts came to an informal meeting a number of months ago, sharing what they believe the shape the future should have. The Netherlands supported its efforts. There are also the Group of Friends to Foster Qualified Majority Voting and friends of unanimity - many different actors in this process of what a new European Union will look like, increasing with potentially six counties in the Western Balkans and the eastern trio. We have to look at each of those proposals from the perspective of what it would mean for Ireland. The Deputy and Cathaoirleach both quite rightly stated that the Franco-German group put a very challenging position on the table about Commissioners, qualified majority voting and treaty change. We are very clear that the Treaty of Lisbon is proof of enlargement and that there is capacity to work to expand the Union. We have just discussed the horrific circumstances in Israel and Palestine. When member states do not all agree on a particular course of action, the more we move to qualified majority voting for some very important decisions, the more we will end up with the European Union not speaking with one voice. One of the strengths we had through almost 11 rounds of sanction packages relating Ukraine was how striking it was to see the Union speak with one voice. That is why Ireland is very clear that any move to qualified majority voting should not be in the absence of stress-testing, debating decisions and trying to form consensus, for which we have always been a catalyst. I would take it as just a report by experts that will be discussed at length in a long process.

There are huge discussions at every meeting we are at on enlargement and what it would look like. We have to continue to work from an Irish perspective on that and look at our history in terms of how we have benefited from being members of the Union historically, and at what we can bring to the table from our shared experiences and having the EU Presidency in 2004 when we welcomed ten member states in. We have to continue doing that.

Regarding migration, it is a second big effort trying to get agreement from the Justice and Home Affairs Council, JHA, onto the trialogue where it is currently at. It is in that negotiation process. Ireland has not made a decision at government level yet as to what course it will take. Obviously, there is more detail to be worked out through the trialogue but we will update the committee as soon as a position is reached by the Government.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I will not repeat the questions that have already been asked so mine may seem a bit peripheral, apart from the first question. The Minister of State mentioned the mid-term review of the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, that will be discussed as part of the EU budget. It would be useful for this committee to get a sense of where the Government will come at this. According to estimates by the Department of Finance, our contribution to the EU budget by 2027 could be €4.5 billion, which is an awful lot of money in any person's language. We know there are some within the European institutions who want to substantially increase the European budget in the next MFF. That raises profound questions. Once money is given to European institutions, regardless of how well or otherwise it is spent, control is lost of what is essentially Irish taxpayers' money and, in the context of the Minister of State's final remarks, we could be dealing with a situation where more and more decisions are made outside the unanimity principle. There always has to be transparency and accountability in how public moneys are expended on behalf of citizens. Sometimes the point is lost when we are talking about qualified majority voting and what that might mean. It is important to recognise what that means in practice. When the EU has to resort to this voting system, it means that democratically elected governments are forced to implement something they do not agree with and for which they may not have democratic support. That is okay in some areas but there are other areas where that can create huge democratic tensions between citizens and the EU and that is what we should try to avoid. I have always been of the view that the Union and its budget should be targeted and focused on the issues we can only deal with if we work together. There are some big areas such as climate action issues, and migration as has been mentioned, that can only be resolved if we work together. Increasingly, there are other areas, which are best managed at a local level, never mind at a national level, in which the EU tries to develop competencies. I ask the Minister of State a general comment on that.

I acknowledge the EU Commissioner with responsibility for agriculture had said in advance of the review that he would be seeking an increased Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, budget to recognise the challenges faced by agriculture, particularly due to the climate action requirements of that sector. Has that come up and has the Government taken a position?

The Minister of State referenced that Ireland is supporting the request of the Spanish Government to include Catalan, Basque and Galician as official languages of the EU. Will he explain what the process is and what the timeframe is for that? My guess is that this could take a very long time unless there is political impetus. Will Ireland be among the states that will try to exert that political impetus to allow those language speakers to have their rights respected within the EU?

Finally, the Spanish Government has cited the progression of the EU-Mercosur trade agreement as a priority under its Presidency. What is the current Irish Government position on this trade agreement?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy. I will try to go through those points. On qualified majority voting, and the MFF and the EU budget, we are firmly of the belief that Ukraine is a special case. We have to really work to ensure it gets access to the finance it needs and enhanced loans and grant support. If we look at the trajectory and the time it took to agree the current strand of the MFF to 2027, it was a very long negotiation process. It took significant time and effort to reach that agreement. The budget is coming under pressure in a number of areas. Interest rates have increased so interest payments are causing more absorption. There is REPowerEU, which is a huge area in which the EU is trying to look for finance. The administration side of the Commission is also looking for more money. However, Ireland is very clear that there are flexibilities within the current budget. There is potentially €1 billion of undrawn down recovery and resilience facility, RRF, loans, approximately €4.2 billion in the flexibility instrument and €2 billion in the Single Market instrument. These are all areas of the budget that have not been exhausted as of yet. We are of the belief that instead of going through a new negotiatory process, we should exhaust the current provisions within the existing MFF budget as I have outlined.

Regarding the three languages, which I understand are co-official languages in Spain, we have worked with my Spanish counterpart who signalled before the GAC that this proposal was being brought to the table. The provision is now with the council, which is the forum where it is to be discussed. It is going to the committee of the permanent representatives of the governments of the member states to the European Union, Coreper, to get some detail around any potential legal issues and if there is any precedence that could be established. Ireland has been very supportive of the Spanish position. I understand it is the intention of Spain to bring forward Catalan as the first language and not to take all three languages together. Spain has said at the GAC that it will absorb the cost to have the languages translated and for the work the institutions would require on that front. We have been very supportive and I have been very strong in my discussions with my counterpart in saying that we are very much of the belief that the more access people have to understand their EU institutions in their own language, the more positive it is for Europe. We will continue in that vein.

Regarding the budget, we are looking for more flexibilities within the budget.

Deputy Matt Carthy

What about the Mercosur agreement?

Deputy Peter Burke

My apologies. We are awaiting the environmental aspects. There is supposed to be an appendix to the agreement that has to be approved to give assurance to member states that we are not going to be compromised on environmental issues that could happen. These have been very well-flagged and we are gravely concerned about them. I have not seen the appendix yet. I am unsure if it has been published yet.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I have a supplementary question regarding the environmental aspects. The proposal will allow for approximately 100,000 tonnes of additional beef from Mercosur to enter the EU market. Is it the Government's position that if an environmental paper is agreed, we will agree to the importation of all those tonnes of beef?

Deputy Peter Burke

We are hugely concerned about it and have quite rightly outlined it and how to go about it. The Deputy spoke about building coalitions. We have tried to work with other like-minded countries in the same circumstances that Ireland faces regarding our agriculture industry. The agreement, as constructed, is not good, not only as the Deputy rightly pointed out, in terms of the quantity of trade, but also the message. If you are at a cost base whereby you are cutting down the Amazon forest every week and you are being rewarded for this, that is not a good signal for the European Union. We are trying to rectify that currently. I do not have an update on the final paper. I am not sure it was issued as of yet.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I will follow up on some of the questions that have been asked. Regarding the status of the EU's migration and asylum pact, there was no agreement at the informal European Council meeting. Is it expected there will be agreement on that at the European Council meeting to be held later this month? The Taoiseach said very clearly after the informal meeting that we would not be taking quotas and would be paying into a fund, as Deputy Howlin has said. Did the Minister of State say a Government decision has not yet been made?

Would our general approach to this be that we are just not in a position to take a quota? We want to show solidarity but is the general thinking at this stage that we would pay into the fund, assuming it is all agreed?

Turning to enlargement, it was curious to see, and I was concerned to learn about, the Franco-German expert group. I did not know that expert groups presented papers to the General Affairs Council.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

This committee could present one.

Deputy Seán Haughey

We could. Why not? We could give the Minister of State a paper for the next meeting.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We are all experts.

Deputy Seán Haughey

France and Germany are big and powerful states. I know the Minister of State said it is an independent expert group, but this is something small nation states like Ireland need to be very vigilant against. The Minister of State has clarified the status of that paper and I appreciate that.

On QMV, I recall listening to the then Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, being interviewed by representatives of the European Movement Ireland at a forum. On this issue, he said the European Council gets there in the end. It is not pretty, and it can be ugly in its decision-making processes, but it does get there and it does get buy-in from everybody. On our general approach to dealing with unanimity and qualified majority voting, I assume we are not enthusiastic about jettisoning the existing rules, for all sorts of reasons in our national interest. I would be interested to know what our general approach is in respect of unanimity versus qualified majority voting and changing this.

There seems to be a new impetus on enlargement under the Spanish Presidency and it seems that will also be the case under the forthcoming Belgian Presidency, having regard to what they and the Commission are saying. Is there a new impetus and momentum to dealing with enlargement once and for all in the coming years? Is this something that the EU and its institutions are now seriously applying their minds to, having regard to the situation in Ukraine, the western Balkans, Georgia and Moldova? Does the Minister of State detect a new impetus here or is this something likely to drag on for years?

Deputy Peter Burke

On the migration and asylum pact, the negotiations have not concluded and I do not expect any conclusions to be reached before the spring. There is still a journey to be undertaken on the detail of the instrument. The Department of Justice will have a look at the proposal at that juncture and then it will require a Government decision on whether Ireland will opt in. The Taoiseach was reflecting the current circumstances in the country and the major pressure we are under. As a nation, we will always show solidarity. We have shown it in abundance in our response to Ukraine. Ukrainian citizens now make up 1.9% of our population. Communities have done so much in this regard and gone above and beyond the call of duty to make Ireland feel like home for these refugees, or as much as we can considering they are coming from a war-torn country. We will also be to the forefront in protecting children, as we have been through the agreement as well. This is very important.

The Deputy mentioned the different groups. Different ideas are always floated around in informal settings on the margins of the General Affairs Council and we are sometimes asked to attend such events on the margins. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, this all comes from a renewed urgency in respect of enlargement. Since I attended my first meeting of the General Affairs Council last February, enlargement has consistently been on the agenda and spoken about. This acceleration is due to the uncertain geopolitical circumstances with Ukraine. Other actors and voices are being looked at and the western Balkans and similar areas are gaining traction and credibility in the EU's own backyard. Europe is now taking much more urgency with this approach and trying to ensure it takes the process of enlargement much more seriously. We are awaiting the update from the Commissioner in November, where he will give a forensic analysis of the different countries and how they are progressing. That will be a big event for Ukraine and other countries in terms of moving on to the next stage and formal negotiations being opened. This is an extremely urgent matter. To give a direct answer to the question, I detect a strong urgency within the EU. This has provided the fuel for many of these groups, informally, to have alignments. As the Taoiseach advised the House, in the European Council we see many informal groups meeting to discuss approaches for like-minded countries.

That aspect is linked in with the topic of qualified majority voting as well. Ireland is very much of the belief that QMV should not be a mechanism to avoid discussion on decisions. It can, of course, be used at times. We saw 11 sanction packages adopted where QMV was used to good effect. There are other areas, however, where we certainly must protect our individual and sovereign rights. Ireland is also to the forefront in this regard. In the general scheme of things, though, we believe there is scope within the current provisions of the existing treaties to absorb these countries without, I hope, having to go back to hold additional referendums and start a debate at a time when so many massive challenges are facing the European Union. These include not only trying to transform our energy system and economy to try to be more sustainable but also the uncertainty in the geopolitical circumstances. This uncertainty is increasing, as we discussed at the start of this meeting.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

When I attended the Conference on the Future of Europe there was a considerable discussion of unanimity versus QMV. In fairness, much of it seemed to arise from a simplistic view in that we have specific rule of law issues, specifically with Hungary and Poland. It stemmed sometimes from citizens' ideas but governments sometimes also think like that. While it is simplistic, obviously if someone is constantly disagreeing on subjects that the other countries all agree on, then it is fine to move on. That approach is grand until it concerns an issue that would impact greatly on countries like Ireland, where we will always believe we are on the right side of the argument. I am, therefore, very worried about that conversation. I agree with all that has been said regarding it not being workable to have a two- or three-speed European Union. I do not think I have seen anyone who would strongly disagree with this view.

On the migration and asylum pact, it is very difficult to see how we are going to get agreement across the board. My other fear is whether this proposal gets to the heart of the issues that must be dealt with. Migration includes emergency and crisis scenarios, such as the emergency in Lampedusa and other areas, which seem to be increasing. We know the fears that exist, whether we are talking about conflict or climate change. There is also the necessity of migration, especially from the perspective of ensuring we have a workforce. The State and the European Union have not reached a proper scenario for dealing with a work permit system that works for us and the people who would seek employment. When are we going to get real about any of these issues?

On the subject of Nagorno-Karabakh and the European Union's relationship with Azerbaijan, we are all very worried about what is going to happen in Israel and Palestine. I an very worried about certain right-wing forces within Israel that never supported a two-state solution. I will use a terrible term here but what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh is almost perfect from the point of view of ethnic cleansing, although in the worst possible way. That cannot allowed to stand in any way, shape or form.

I was somewhat worried when I heard we did not necessarily support Spain's proposal on Catalan, Basque and Galician, but I welcome what the Minister of State has said. We all know how difficult it was to secure for Irish the status it deserved and all the advantages that come with that. I would like to think we will support the proposal for those other languages. It is a necessity, given that approximately 10.5 million people speak Catalan alone.

I think that is sufficient for now.

Deputy Peter Burke

On the last question regarding languages, we have been very supportive. As I said, my Spanish colleague flagged it with me that he was going to bring it to the General Affairs Council and maybe a decade or so previously it was brought to the General Affairs Council. In the new government they are trying to form in Spain, it is something that has come to the forefront and they are trying to get movement on it again.

The Deputy pointed out a number of issues around enlargement. I concur that the last thing we want to see is a differently tiered European Union. I thought it was interesting that President von der Leyen floated the idea of a rule of law to apply to some countries before they come into the Union and having a dialogue on that and how democracy and their freedoms and institutions are doing and progressing. We see the challenges. One of the experiences that can be surreal at times is Article 7 appearances of some countries that are currently members of the European Union and trying to get them to comply with freedom of the press and fundamental freedoms. It can be very challenging. It really points out to us that when we are taking new countries in, it is very important that we take a merit-based approach and that they measure up because it only causes problems in the future if there are inherent weaknesses that have not been resolved. We have to work hard with our counterparts to ensure that-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Our own house is in order.

Deputy Peter Burke

It is indeed. We have had one issue that was referenced-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I meant the European Union. It is absolutely vital that there is leverage on states that do not comply with the rule of law. Too much has been let go for too long. I apologise for interrupting.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is a significant challenge and we have to learn from that for how we progress them into the future. I absolutely hear the Deputy's point on that and on qualified majority voting and the different approaches to enlargement. The committee will hear a lot of ideas, I would imagine, over the coming months about institutional reform, what that would look like and what the shape of it is. Other countries and member states have their own particular views on these things but we have to try to work and build coalitions on our viewpoint and ensure it reflects what we are as a State. Hopefully we will be able to do that through the process.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

What about Nagorno-Karabakh?

Deputy Peter Burke

It is horrific what has been imposed on the Armenian people and what they have gone through. We have expressed the need for de-escalation and the outrage towards Azerbaijan about what is happening there. It is very distressing to see so many people have moved and the humanitarian issues on the ground. We have been supportive financially, if I am not mistaken, and I can get the Deputy a note on that.

Senator Lisa Chambers

I have questions on a couple of areas. The Minister of State spoke about the multi-annual financial framework and the potential for adjustments. Could he elaborate a little further on that and what we might be looking at if additional funds are needed between now and 2027?

Regarding the issue of enlargement, the Minister of State has articulated very well what is coming down the tracks. There is a greater focus on that now because we have realised there is a vacuum and that if Europe does not move to bring other member states into the European Union, other influences like Russia may move into those areas. It is important for the long-term stability of the European Union that we enlarge. If we were to stand still, everything else would move forward and we would be the worse for it. Can the Minister of State touch upon the timelines we are looking at and any possible acceleration on that?

There has been a lot of commentary on the Franco-German proposal or paper. I would not be as alarmed as others are by it. I think it is a starting point for conversation. Somebody had to start the conversation. That may very well lead to a final point where there is no change to the voting system but that conversation has to happen. Even when we enlarged back in 2004, there were concerns that would not be manageable in terms of majority voting or with that large number of member states but we managed and it has worked fine. It is to our credit and benefit to have that solidarity and one voice. Over time, that argument will win out and that is certainly the argument we will be making. It is just a starting point for conversation so I would not get too hung up on it.

With regard to the number of Commissioners, an issue has been touched upon that if we had 35, 36 or 37 member states, it would be difficult trying to find a portfolio for every Commissioner. You could argue there are already two tiers of Commissioners because there are the sought-after portfolios and then the not so glamorous and not really talked about portfolios. That is already there. There are portfolios that are seen as a prize for best in class or for the more influential member states.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

So it is like the Cabinet.

Senator Lisa Chambers

Exactly. Let us not kid ourselves. We have had that conversation here in recent times on the importance of certain portfolios. It is something that will have to be dealt with because if there are 37 Commissioners, how do we find a job for everybody that keeps everybody on the pitch with equal standing and all that? That is a conversation. I welcome that conversation and that debate happening. I think it is healthy.

Treaty change will send a shiver down the spine of everybody here because of the need to hold a referendum on it. Although the Lisbon treaty provides for flexibility as regards enlargement, if and when treaty change is needed, let us not be afraid of it. That is if we need to have a conversation nationally and we can justify a particular change, why we should support it or why it is needed. This could be a long time down the road but it is nothing to be afraid of. We have done it before and we can do it again, only if and when it is needed. I certainly would not like to see us taking it off the table because we just do not know where things are going to go. We ultimately want a union that is effective and functioning and serves its citizens. We will have a lot more citizens.

We need to think about the changes in the geopolitical situation and the instability globally. We are also dealing with issues such as those Ursula von Leyen outlined for her year ahead, for example, taking on China and anti-competitive practices. We must also look at the issue of precious metals and how we protect our indigenous industries and grow and deal with the technological and digital transformation we need. There is a lot of change coming at us very fast and we will need to adapt as a union to deal with those changes and make sure we serve our citizens. I would welcome the Minister of State's thoughts on enlargement, where that is heading and how we can deal with those challenges.

Deputy Peter Burke

The Senator captured it very well with regard to where Ireland has been through its history in terms of welcoming the discussion on enlargement. We had the Presidency back in 2004 when we had the day of welcomes and ten member states were brought into the European Union. We have a solid track record working with those countries that are aspiring to get into Europe. Some of them can have a deficit in their administration capacity to deliver a lot of the reforms that are needed to become members of the European Union, to fill in and get through all of the acquis and work through the trajectory of membership. We financially support those countries, which is very important, to give them the chance that we have had and that transformed our country over the last 50 years. We will continue to do that.

Obviously scale can scare people given the size of Ukraine but we have had the United Kingdom, with 67 million people, leave the European Union. Once there is a will to try to work around how to reform institutions and absorb new countries coming in, we will continue to be that voice to work and support it. We need to ensure the European Union is the competent voice throughout Europe, that our member states are at one as best we can be and that other voices from other regions that can be more destabilising do not infiltrate because of us potentially taking our eye off the ball. We have to be very careful about that. We see that renewed urgency approaching now. A lot will depend on the Commission's forensic report, which is due in November, about how countries are getting on. That will probably give a better timescale of where we are. We are just waiting on it to publish that in November and that will go through a number of the countries. Obviously Ukraine will be key in that.

On the multi-annual financial framework, there are a number of pressures coming on the budget. In 2022, Ireland put in about €2.6 billion so we have moved from a position of receiving money to being a net contributor. A number of aspects in the budget have come under pressure, such as interest repayments, REPowerEU, green energy and the transition we are trying to embark upon. Administration within the Commission has also grown. Front and centre is Ukraine and the need for additional support, which we see as a special case. Our view as a Government is that if we increase funding, it is going to cost more for us as a State. Not only that but we are focused on trying to exhaust the current provisions of the budget because it took a long time to negotiate the current multi-annual financial framework and we do not want to go back into a major negotiating process when we have various lines that have not been exhausted yet.

I referenced earlier the RRF loans of around €93 billion. A number of other areas like the Single Market instrument and the flexibility instrument have additional capacity within them, rather than going back to the negotiating table. We are trying to ensure that happens.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you very much. I think everybody has concluded their contributions----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I would never go that far.

An Cathaoirleach

To come back on the European Union side of things, I welcomed some of the Minister of State's comments on enlargement. We have a strong tradition of supporting enlargement. Ireland has been to the forefront. This committee has done much work, as have various Irish governments. When it comes to the European Union, we should be very clear and I hope the Government agrees. When we went through the Lisbon process, the idea behind it was to future-proof enlargement. Calling a spade a spade, what is beginning to happen is that having strung along a number of applicant countries for a long period, we are trying to change the ground rules and focusing on an internal process to see how we might adjust our own structures. If that process is-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There will be lesser members.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. I disagree respectfully with Senator Chambers on this. That process is coming from a viewpoint of dissolving the European Union as it currently exists. That is effectively the Franco-German proposal. It is not a marginal proposal. It should not be welcomed. It proposes three tiers. They call them rings because tiers obviously upset them. This is a dusting down of a Macron proposal of a number of years ago, dressed up and repackaged through an independent set of academics to re-present it. At its heart, it tells member states like Ireland they are not worthy of being at the top table and that small countries will not hold the main commissionerships. Our farmers and community groups will be disadvantaged. Our sectoral interests will no longer have the same access to Europe as they have now. I am open to looking at how to handle enlargement and development of the European Union but I urge the Minister of State that a proposal as fundamentally wrong as this one not be entertained. It would destroy Ireland’s ability to be a full member of the European Union, along with most smaller member states. That is fundamentally different from changes around qualified majority voting or tweaks to the system.

I urge the European Union collectively and the governments within it to recognise that if we spend the next five years looking at our internal structures and park the enlargement for another five years, what has been mentioned by a number of members here will happen. Young people and those in their 40s who have grown up their entire life looking at whether or not they could gain access to the European Union will move away and look through their political representatives and their countries’ governments at other avenues of involvement. That opens up the door to Russia and other players. While there are risks and the rule of law must be at the heart of it, we as the European Union need to recognise and I urge the Minister of State to ensure the Government uses its position to say priority one is enlargement and if changes have to be made, they are to be made at the same time or afterwards, but not to use an internal look at our processes to delay enlargement by another decade.

Senator Lisa Chambers

I feel I need a right of reply. I was referenced directly. For the avoidance of doubt, I said I welcomed the discussion around the mechanics of enlargement and that the position paper was kickstarting the discussion but was not the landing point. Nobody was welcoming the content of it but it gets things started.

An Cathaoirleach

I would not even use it to get things started. I would throw it out before it arrived but that is just you and me.

Senator Lisa Chambers

I would not panic.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a nuanced difference. We will let the Minister of State try to arbitrate between us.

Deputy Peter Burke

Starting the discussion is important but many think-tanks and papers-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

When will it get to the General Affairs Council? That is the point.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is the key thing. They are all on the fringes of different groups presenting their views of what the country’s view is. As Senator Chambers said, it is good the table is constantly talking about enlargement now but none of these reflect the position of the European Union as a collective. We all have our own views. More importantly, the Cathaoirleach is right and I have experienced going around countries that citizens start to lose hope when they do not see urgency. Think of what North Macedonia had to go through: change its name and battle to amend its constitution. Serbia is a difficult case but there is an Irish business association in Serbia that we met in Belgrade. The horror perpetrated on Kosovo is a very serious issue but, outside of that, they do not see the seriousness any more of the European Union. Our ability to effect change then erodes. That is a huge concern in the region. We have to show we are serious.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Will we put a proposal and paper together if this is what is being done at this point?

Deputy Peter Burke

The committee could be vital in the debate. We will be vital in the enlargement debate. It is important.

An Cathaoirleach

We are playing a vital role within it.

Deputy Peter Burke

They commend the committee on it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Particularly me.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is one question under any other business. In our private session, I had contacted the clerk about inviting in the ambassador of Armenia. The Cathaoirleach referenced it but I did not get a timescale on it.

An Cathaoirleach

The area falls primarily within the foreign affairs committee rather than our committee.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Armenians would certainly regard themselves as European but there we are.

An Cathaoirleach

It is happening in Europe, I agree, but I think it is happening in both committees. I said to the Deputy we would come back with a timeline on it.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Will we invite the Armenian ambassador to speak to the committee?

An Cathaoirleach

I would like to work with the clerk and check that-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

We have invited the Georgian ambassador.

An Cathaoirleach

I know. I would like to work with the clerk on that, if you do not mind. I will check and come back with an answer.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Very good.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.58 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2023.