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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

European Court of Auditors Annual Report 2022: Discussion

I wish everyone a good morning. On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome Mr. Tony Murphy from the European Court of Auditors to the meeting. He is joined by his colleagues, Mr. Brian Murphy and Mr. Peter Borsos. They are all very welcome and I thank them for joining us this morning.

Before we begin, I will read the note on privilege, which I have no doubt everyone will be very familiar with but I have to go through it every time. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. There are a number of people joining us remotely. I remind members that there is a constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House complex to participate in the meetings. If members are not present within Leinster House, they cannot participate. I will obviously have to ascertain that they are present before allowing them to participate. This applies to members who are participating via MS Teams. With that, we will confirm all those details and get back to our meeting proper.

The first order of business is to call Mr. Murphy to make his opening address to us.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee very much. It is a pleasure to be back here again. It has been a few years but there are familiar faces, which is nice. I am sure I will get some familiar questions later as well. I am looking forward to them.

I will outline roughly what we want to do today, which is to give the key messages of our annual report for 2022. We will discuss the key EU figures, the annual report itself and then some additional issues regarding funding sources for Ireland. This year probably more than ever the key figures and budgetary figures are important. There is a lot of pressure on the EU budget and it is looking for alternative sources of funding as well. I am sure members are well aware of that.

To put it in the context of the figures we are talking about, members can see that revenue was €245 billion, to which Ireland contributed €3.5 billion. The bulk of that is based on our GNI, which is approximately €2.6 billion, and the rest is basically customs duty and VAT-based contributions.

The expenditure for 2022 totalled €196 billion, of which €2.4 billion relates to funding that has been received by us from the EU. As members are probably aware, the vast bulk of it is with regard to direct payments and European agricultural fund rural for development, EAFRD, payments so, basically, agricultural subsidies and related schemes. The balance is small figures. In terms of cohesion, the figure is €158 million and Single Market innovation and digital is €240 million.

One of the biggest changes in the expenditure profile for 2022 is that Recovery and Resilience Facility, RRF, expenditure took off to some degree. There was €47.3 billion spent on RFF to different member states. Ireland has yet to receive funds under this programme. It recently made its first claim and that will be processed in due course. Based on these figures, as members can see, Ireland is basically a net contributor to the EU budget and will continue to be, probably in an increasing way going forward.

In terms of our annual report, the expenditure, which we looked at earlier, is basically broken down by policy area. Cohesion has now become the major proportion of expenditure in the budget at 40.4% compared to natural resources and environment, which is now 30%. The rest is made up of areas that are becoming more and more important. Migration and border management and security and defence are areas in which there has not been a lot of EU budget until now but, obviously, these areas are attracting much more attention. As I said, that is a breakdown of the €196 billion plus the €47.3 billion for RFF.

We give a couple of opinions within our findings. The accounts are relatively straightforward. We have not had a problem with them for many years. In terms of revenue, we also give a clean opinion. This is based on the revenue that has been booked. We are basically checking the revenue and customs, etc., that have been booked, that is, the so-called customs and VAT gap not covered through this audit.

We have given a qualified opinion on the expenditure for the RRF and we have given an adverse opinion on the standard multi-annual financial framework, MMF, expenditure, if you want to call it that. The reason for the adverse opinion is that our level of error has increased to 4.2% from 3% in the previous year. For high-risk spending, in fact, the error rate is around 6% compared to 4.7% the previous year. Approximately 66% of our population is basically high risk. This is the basis for the adverse opinion.

If we look at the different areas, we can see that Single Market innovation and digital has actually declined from 4.4% to 2.7%. Cohesion is where the big increase has come. That has gone to 6.4% from 3.6%, which is basically an 80% increase year-on-year. Natural resources and environment has just gone above the materiality threshold at 2.2%.

If we look at where these are coming from, the main ones are eligibility errors, that is, either ineligible costs or ineligible projects.

It can be seen that these are almost three quarters of the errors. Then 20% relates to public procurement and state aid which are always very complicated areas.

The big figure that is having an impact is the cohesion expenditure error rate, which is 6.4%. It is 40% of our other population and it is an 80% increase compared to 2021. To be fair we, should take into account that there are extenuating reasons for this increase, which can be partly explained. First, towards the end of any programming period - and we are at the end of 2014 to 2020 - we see pressure on member states to absorb funds, so we always see a trend in terms of an increased error rate. Second, for cohesion the system in place means a lag between the expenditure claimed by the member states. The expenditure in the sample related to the period of July 2020 to June 2021. In other words, this was the first real full year of payments made under Covid-19 conditions, so the member states and other authorities, etc., could not audit on the spot. They were doing more from home or wherever it was so that probably contributed as well. Third, and the easiest one to be clear about, there was a very good initiative which was a Covid-19 response investment initiative where member states could get 100% funding and no co-financing was needed. Again, there was an absorption pressure linked to this. It was for a time period of a year and it was actually extended for another year. However, because it was for a year initially member states were under pressure to submit projects which would attract this financing. Of the 6.4% error rate, 3% are these types of projects. In terms of being a good initiative, it turned out in hindsight that there were problems with it because again, everything seems to be linked to the pressure on member states to just spend money which does not always result in the best outcome.

Natural resources is 35% of our other populations and the errors in this were split. The main two would be, first, the provision of inaccurate information on areas or animals and, second, ineligible beneficiaries or activity expenditure. That again is almost 80% of the type of errors we find in the natural resources policy area. Looking at the Irish transactions sampled, there were payments of €58 billion across the EU. Ireland received just over €1.5 billion from natural resources. In this case we tend to be part of the sample for agriculture rather than cohesion because the cohesion money is quite small and, in terms of materiality, it does not feature very often in our sample. We had 218 transactions which covered 18 member states. There were four transactions for Ireland, two of which were quantifiable errors. One was an ineligible payment to a beneficiary and one was linked to the animal welfare scheme.

Moving on to chapter 11, it is a new chapter and relates to the recovery and resilience facility, RRF. The RRF is a completely new instrument. It is a different delivery model. We will come back to the funding in a minute. Basically, it is completely funded by borrowing. In 2022 we had 13 payments to 11 member states and basically what we checked there were the milestones and targets. We did a reassessment of the Commission's assessment as to whether the milestones or targets had actually been met. We found that 15 of them had irregularity issues and, on this basis, we gave a qualified opinion. We do not have an error rate here because it is not like the multi-annual financial framework, MMF, expenditure. The EU budget has common rules which apply across all member states whereas with the RRF each member state has its own individual recovery plan and they are completely different. It is impossible to consolidate them and come up with an overall error rate.

The challenges with the RRF are that we have issues with the milestones and targets. It leads to an awful lot of room for interpretation and judgment. It is supposed to be a performance-based instrument but for us it is more of an implementation-based instrument. The member states get paid if they do certain things. The common indicators to measure performance are not actually comprehensive enough to measure the performance of the facility. We have an assurance and accountability gap because member states have been self-policing, in a way. They have been asked to declare that all the national and EU rules are being complied with. This is very important as the RRF per se for Ireland is €915 million but, as we are a net contributor, we have an interest in how the rest of the money is being spent. The concern we have raised is that the investment will follow. A lot of the initial payments were based on reforms that had to be implemented by member states, so now the money will eventually be spent on investments. The investments are very similar to cohesion-type expenditure. If we already have issues with cohesion-type expenditure where there is a traditional control system in place we are a bit worried in terms of relying on member states to self-declare that everything is okay for the RRF-related element of this expenditure.

Another issue, going back to absorption, is that the RRF was an emergency response instrument and we see at the end of October 2023 that only approximately 35% of the total funds, through grants at least, had been distributed so far. In fact, five member states have had no funds at all from the RRF, including Ireland, and another four member states have only drawn down the pre-financing. Out of the 27 member states, even at this stage, there are nine which effectively have not made a proper claim from the RRF.

We highlight the risks and challenges where we are able to do so. We also have the budgetary challenges which are being faced by the EU and are increasing exponentially because of the different additional activities that they are expected to get involved in. There is low absorption of the 2013 European structural and investment funds, ESIF, of 80%, so 20% is still to be spent by the end of December as the cut-off is this year. Again, the pressure means we will probably find more errors. By definition the pressure leads to that.

The outstanding commitments in terms of the EU budget are €453 billion, so it is a multiple of the actual annual budget. Inflation is having a significant impact, as it is everywhere, in terms of the purchasing power of the EU budget. The debt, which is another concern, increased significantly to €344 billion by the end of the year. Most of this is linked to NextGenerationEU, NGEU, borrowings for grants. When the RRF was being designed it was in a very low-interest rate environment, so it was very attractive to go down the road of borrowing money. What we see now is that there was a charge in 2022 of €0.5 billion in the EU budget. The 2024 budget, which was just approved last week between the different legislatures, has a line to cover interest on the NGEU loans and it will be €3.3 billion in 2024. It is becoming a significant expenditure heading.

Ukraine is another area where the budget exposure is increasing. It has basically doubled from €7 billion to €16 billion and during 2023 there have been additional payments so this is an expanding area. Those are the key messages from our annual report.

We do special reports which some people call performance-type reports where we look at the impact of different policies. Here are some reports again that we have mentioned before, whether they were already in progress, that were issued in 2022. Where the Irish flag is there Ireland has been one of the member states sampled because we do not go to every member state. We normally go to five or six member states to get some sort of indicator of how things are across the policy area and we can make recommendations based on that. There is the LEADER programme, a single market for investment funds, GNI data.

Climate spending is obviously a very important topic. Here we had an issue with the Commission. It has a target to spend 20% of the budget on climate-related issues and it said it met its target of just over 20% and we did not agree. We said the Commission has overestimated the green spending by €72 billion compared to the €210 billion it had claimed so it is quite a big difference.

For 2023 we issued reports on sustainable soil management, the internal electricity market, the EU climate and energy targets and the EU's industrial policy on batteries.

As can be seen, we tend to follow the topics which are of interest to the legislators and the taxpayer, including climate. The industrial policy on batteries touches on things like strategic autonomy, which is the question of our dependence on third parties for critical supplies. We have a report due to be published in the next few months which looks at VAT fraud on imports, harmful tax competition, the CAP strategic plans and lobbying law makers. We publish 30 to 35 of these types of reports annually.

The Ukraine facility is a very topical issue with regard to the EU budget. The European Commission has proposed a facility of approximately €50 billion, comprising €33 billion in loans and €17 billion in grants. The aim is to promote recovery and rebuilding of the country. This issue is being discussed in terms of the MFF mid-term review. On the €17 billion, there is a proposal that it would be added to the budget to pay for the grants and on the loan side that there would be an extra €2.5 billion provision to give guarantees on the loans. Our opinion on this facility is that it is a bit like the recovery and resilience facility, RRF, in terms of a lot of leeway for Ukraine to define the conditions for disbursing the support. We will have to see what happens. It is only indicative in terms of the split between loans and grants. That will be finalised in the MFF review, if it is successful.

Another thing of specific interest for Ireland is the opinion on the new own resources proposal. We have been asked for an opinion and our view is based on the fact that it is technically sound from a stability point of view. It is probably easy to calculate and collect, but we are not giving any opinion on whether it is a good or bad system or proposal. There are three categories of revenue, but the large one which has attracted attention here in the press is the third one; namely, the share of residual profits that are allocated to member states from the largest and most profitable multinational enterprises. As the committee may know, Ireland is an outlier in this regard. It would be 80% of our GNI compared to the EU average of approximately 23%. It would significantly impact the contribution to the EU budget, which as I already mentioned is €3.5 billion, but it could increase by almost another €1.5 billion based on the levy of 0.5%. The issue here is ongoing. In terms of Ireland it is very important but it is also important from the Commission's point of view on whether this succeeds. It really needs to find a source of funding to start repaying the debt which will need to be repaid in 2028. If the Commission does not have an own resource, there are two options: member states can be asked to contribute more on an annual basis or the activities of the EU will have to be contracted, with the funds being paid from the existing budget. I know already that the MFF review, which is ongoing at the moment, is for €66 billion. Some member states are adamantly stating they will not pay any more funds into the EU budget. Last week I was in Belgium, where the Prime Minister has stated that it is not willing to pay another €700 million or €800 million per year for the next four years to cover its share. We are almost at a crossroads where decisions have to be made about budgetary management and especially funding sources.

Specifically for Ireland, beyond the €2.6 billion we talked about earlier for agriculture and cohesion, etc., the other area where Ireland is a beneficiary is with regard to the €914 million under the RRF. As I said, we have not received any funding yet. The first payment request was for €324 million. The Commission has two months to process the request, but there is some delay with it. The latest expectation is that it will not be paid this year.

As the committee knows, Ireland is the biggest beneficiary of the Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR. We will get €1 billion now after the €150 million which has been transferred to the RRF. We have received all the pre-financing we were due, which was €802 million. It remains to be seen what will happen in September of next year when the expenditure is submitted in what is an unusual process. It will be submitted in one large block. Either it is eligible and we receive the balancing 20%, or there are deductions for projects which the Commission considers not to be eligible. We will see how that develops.

I have given an overview of what is a very big report. We have an EU audit in brief, which is much shorter and gives the main points about the different policy areas. Chapter 2 deals with budgetary management. This is becoming more and more of an issue for Ireland, given that we are a net contributor and are likely to continue in that direction for the foreseeable future.

I welcome Mr. Murphy and his team back to the committee. Mr. Murphy presented a very large array of material. I have a long list of questions I could ask, but in deference to the committee, I will be as focused as possible.

The overall budget expenditure being presented is €196 billion in 2022, which is 2.5% of GNI of member states. When looking at a company, most auditors consider the income of the company and the objectives the company has set for expenditure. Does Mr. Murphy have an opinion regarding the capacity of the European Union to do what it has set itself to do? It is constantly announcing new programmes and objectives, but I would like to get an auditor's point of view. Mr. Murphy obviously has no political view on whether there is merit in it. Strictly from an auditing perspective, is the budget adequate to the objectives that the company – the EU – has set itself?

My second question is relation to the borrowings. Perhaps I am so scarred by these things that the figure looks alarming. EU borrowing stands at €344 billion, which is 175% of the overall budget for 2022. Having 175% of the budget in borrowing is very significant. Here in Ireland, we panicked when we got to 100%. If we consider the current debt not in GNI terms, but in GDP terms of member states, the lowest national debt is 18.5% in Estonia. The highest, which would be regarded as outrageously high, is 172% in Greece, which went through the crisis. How can the EU reach a borrowing level of 175% of its budget expenditure in the year? I acknowledge that Mr. Murphy has pointed that out but surely it is an alarming issue.

I want to ask about the BAR and the expenditure for Ireland. Ireland is the largest recipient country - we are getting €1 billion - because we are the most seriously affected by Brexit. Will Mr. Murphy give us some granular details in terms of the expenditure? Obviously, I am interested in the expenditure in Rosslare Europort. How much has been allocated and how much has been drawn down, if anything yet, or is everything going to happen at the end? I take it that every expenditure currently being incurred is being tick-tacked with the auditors to ensure it qualifies. Is there a prospect at the end that some expenditure could be put on our own books because it is not covered or how is that process operated?

What is a ballpark figure of how much has been indicated by the Irish Government in expenditure in Rosslare Europort in particular, and for Ireland in general?

My third question relates to the migration and border management issue. Obviously, it is becoming a greater issue. How is the money expended? Are we talking about an expansion of Frontex, is it support for border forces in member states or is it a combination of those? How is that expenditure audited? Perhaps I am wrong to believe that it is being used to support and strengthen border forces in member states, but how is it audited by the European Court of Auditors?

I will contribute again if I can get a second round later, but my final question for now is on lobbying lawmakers, which was an interesting subset of the court’s inquiries. I see that in the upcoming COP on climate change there is to be a clampdown on lobbyists because, at the previous Conference of the Parties, there were more lobbyists than participants, particularly from the fossil fuel sector. It is now a noticeable feature of Brussels. Deputy Harkin will know much better than I the impact of lobbyists and their capacity to implement change. There are some scandals involving Members of the European Parliament that are being investigated. I introduced the regulation of lobbyists legislation in this State. Is there an analogous law in the EU?

The Deputy asked a number of questions, but I cannot let them go without making one of my pet comments. Perhaps so many lobbyists on behalf of the petrochemical industry will not be needed with COP being hosted in one of the largest oil-producing and oil-exporting countries.

No one seems to get the irony of that. That is by the by, though.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As was mentioned, many of the questions were political-----

Mr. Tony Murphy

For an auditor. Regarding the €196 billion, the MFF is the outcome of a series of difficult negotiations on a budget for the programme period. The money is set at a particular point in time and the Commission has objected. I agree with the Deputy that, owing to things that have happened during the tenure of this Commission, it has been asked to do much more on, for example, Ukraine, energy issues and the Covid response. There have been many issues that were not in the plan when the MFF was originally agreed.

If that happens in a state, it has to adjust its tax base to meet its outgoings.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes, but at least a state has an annual budget. In our case, we have a seven-year budget, so it is more difficult and there are issues with the budget’s flexibility. The Deputy can see the issues that the Commission is facing in the MFF review. It is looking for another €66 billion to meet additional tasks it believes it has to undertake, including in respect of Ukraine. There are other issues where the Commission wants to engage in more activity. It is basically at the whim of member states agreeing to increase their contributions to cover those activities, though. One cannot expect the EU budget to do everything. It is 2.1% or 2.3% of GNI. Sometimes, member states’ expectations are too high. Some of that is probably due to the propaganda of the Commission itself, in that it promises too much. The mix of the two does not help.

Linked to that matter is the question of borrowing. Borrowing was basically never allowed before. In response to the Covid crisis, a specific decision was made to allow the EU to borrow. The EU wanted to help member states in difficult circumstances.

It wanted to spend without raising taxes. We know all about it.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Tony Murphy

It was a political decision that the EU would borrow. The borrowings are guaranteed by the member states. That is the fact of the matter. It will be much more than 175%. When the NGEU loans are fully drawn down, they will be a multiple of the budget. There is increasing debt without an identified source of repayment. That is the risk we have been raising.

We discussed the BAR last year. We have said all along that there is a risk. When we were asked for our opinion on the BAR, we said that there was a risk that, due to the projects being submitted all in one block, there could be an instance where the expenditure was not accepted by the Commission and the money would be lost. We held meetings yesterday with some of the authorities involved in managing these processes and they said that there were issues in ensuring that they identified the right projects and could demonstrate that they were eligible in terms of counteracting the negative impact of Brexit. There has to be a correlation between a project and the negative impact. Regarding Rosslare specifically, the authorities mentioned that, due to the time constraints, they may not be able to have the whole project submitted but will probably have some part of it submitted. If so, they will need to find other projects to make up the balance. There is no ticktacking with the auditors or with the Commission especially. When we raised this issue with the Commission, it told us that it would ensure to liaise on a regular basis with the member states. Seemingly, however, the authorities send the Commission details and it just replies, “Noted”. I believe it is overburdened by, for example, the RRF. There is too much happening at the same time and it cannot give this the time it originally thought it could.

Where migration is concerned, we have done a number of reports. Frontex is an agency, so we audit it as a separate entity every year, but we have also audited the reintegration or return of refugees and migrant centres, particularly in Italy and Greece. We have undertaken four or five special reports on various aspects of migration and how it is being managed within the EU. We link it to the money. We follow the money and can examine various schemes that are introduced in respect of migration and the migration deal, as it were.

Members touched on the issue of lobbying lawmakers. We had planned the audit before the unfortunate circumstances of Qatargate. It was on our list. There is a register, but we are unsure as to how effective it is. We actually delayed the audit because the European Parliament was introducing a new register. We would have had this finished before Qatargate, but the European Parliament said there was no point in auditing the register because it was being revamped and it would make more sense to audit it after the update. There is, at least in theory, a register similar to the one that the Deputy mentioned. We will see-----

I am sorry, but this is different. We have registration under the Standards in Public Office Act, but we also have a law on the regulation of lobbyists, under which anyone who lobbies must register.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes. I do not know what the final outcome of the update will be, but it will be covered in the special report.

I thank Mr. Murphy.

I thank Mr. Murphy and his team for attending again and for their willingness to do so annually.

I bow to the experience of the former Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and I am not an accountant, but I have a few questions. They are observations more than anything else. It is clear that Mr. Murphy presides over a large operation and that it is a useful exercise.

The level of error in payments has increased to 4.2%. Is that cause for concern or was it inevitable? What is the trend likely to be?

My second question is on Ukraine. The budget exposure to Ukraine has increased from €7 billion to €16 billion. I would be anxious to know a little more about this matter, particularly as it relates to the European Peace Facility whereby some countries are providing weaponry or, in the case of neutral countries, non-lethal equipment. How is that handled in the accounts? Where the expenditure on Ukraine is concerned, can Mr. Murphy go into more detail? Obviously, it was crisis management initially from an EU perspective.

How is that now being managed and monitored? That is my second question.

Every year, we tend to ask about the levels of bureaucracy and form-filling for the citizen under the various schemes and so forth, and our guests tend to reply every year that they are doing their best not to increase the burden on the citizens in relation to form-filling. Perhaps Mr. Murphy would like to make a comment in that regard.

I thank Mr. Murphy for flagging the debt problems that may emerge and the position of Ireland and its own resources. I know Mr. Murphy is not commenting on that but it is an issue the committee will have to look at in due course.

Mr. Tony Murphy

I think the error rate causes a bit of confusion because we always have to clarify that it is not fraud. That is the first thing. I explained that the increase from 3% to 4.2% was mainly due to cohesion. As I said, there were three factors which contributed to that, including the Covid-19 pandemic and this particular crisis response investment initiative. I do not know what the trend will be. Next year will be the second year of Covid, if you like. There will still be many payments and we will not yet be back to some sort of normality. We will still be operating under these difficult conditions for control bodies. It is possible the level will stay quite high.

We are also, as I said, at the very end of the programming period and because of the absorption rates in many member states, there will be errors. Italy and Spain are two cases in point. They benefit a lot from the RRF. They are big beneficiaries of it. They are attracted to it because it is 100% financing, which is fine. The problem then is that for the normal MFF expenditure the headline figures look quite good. That figure is approximately 75% to 80% for both Italy and Spain. However, if we take out the agricultural funds, which are more direct and systematic payments, and concentrate instead on the other European structural and investment funds, such as the European Social Fund, ESF, the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, and others, the actual absorption rates in September, with three months left in the programming period, were at 57% and 67%. Massive amounts of money are still to be spent. That is what I am saying. We worry about an increase in errors but funds are almost competing at the moment. Funds are available and there is only a limited amount of projects that can be processed and managed properly by an administration. It is about trying to fit the projects into the most beneficial funding source.

It goes back to what Deputy Howlin said. It is okay that the Commission adds all these new facilities and programmes, but that has an impact not only on the budget but also on the administrations in the member states because they are being asked to do more. In many member states, as the committee will know, the administrating headings are the ones that are not for any increases. We are asking administrations to do more with the same, or fewer, resources. That is a type of pressure and it is normal that where administrations are constantly under that type of pressure, mistakes will happen.

It is important to put this into context. We are looking at this from a legalistic point of view. Some of the projects, even those in which we see an error, would be useful projects. On the other hand, there are projects that are in line with all the rules and tick all the boxes but are useless. We have to take it all in context. It is a legalistic approach but we are required to do this under the Maastricht treaty. We have to look at the legality and regularity of the underlying transactions. That is to put the error rate into context.

We recently issued a report in respect of the budget galaxy. It shows how complicated the financial landscape in the EU is. Apart from the EU budget, there are many satellite bodies, including the European Peace Facility, which we do not audit. We were raising the issue that many of these bodies are handling substantial amounts of taxpayers' money but are not subject to the same scrutiny and supervision as the normal EU budget. They are sometimes used as a way around scrutiny. They can be set up for a specific instrument that is not subject to the same level of scrutiny. For many bodies, we would prefer to have a mandate but we do not.

On expenditure for Ukraine, we have not been able to send any auditors to Ukraine, as the committee will understand. Not many are willing to go on the ground in Ukraine at the moment. The other issue is that all funding to Ukraine is in the form of loans. It is debatable whether they will ever be repaid but in accounting terms, they are considered loans. We have only limited scope in that regard. We can audit the loan but not the expenditure because it is member states' money and Ukraine will allegedly repay it.

Is it for reconstruction?

Mr. Tony Murphy

No. Most of the money is being used to keep the country going. It is current expenditure. It will be different. Under the Ukraine facility, there will be €33 billion in loans and €17 billion in grants. That is where it becomes more of an issue for us. On the terms of the loans, what we can do is to check how the loans have been raised on the market by the Commission to ensure the money goes to the right bank accounts in Ukraine. If there is any requirement for conditionality around the drawdown of the loans, we can check that the Commission has assessed that it has been satisfied. It is at that level. It will be different when it comes to grants because we are then moving into the sphere of reconstruction, or whatever it might be. This is why I think the €17 billion will not do a whole lot in that regard. An awful lot of funds are going to be required down the road. Someone will have to pay the price.

I do not know if the committee is aware that we issued a special report approximately two years before the war broke out. We audited Ukraine and concluded it was one of the most corrupt countries. That was then and this is now. The situation has changed. However, I have received contact from different countries that are donors in Ukraine whose worry is not about now, because they acknowledge the need for support to keep the country going, but who tell me that when the whole reconstruction starts, we must ensure there are proper anti-corruption and anti-fraud measures and proper governance structures in place. We liaise a little with the Ukrainian court of auditors, which is like the auditor general here. That is, however, limited. Five Ukrainian auditors are working on a kind of secondment in the European Court of Auditors at the moment. Their office is not functioning so they have come to train with us. It is an evolving situation but it will become much more of an issue when the grant expenditure kicks in because taxpayers' money will be being spent and not loans.

Who monitors the European Peace Facility? Is it the Commission?

Mr. Tony Murphy

There is an external auditor. Many of these sorts of bodies set up an audit board. It is on a rotational basis. There would be three or four nominees from each member state on a rotational basis. That is the way it works. As I say, we raised concerns about the amount of money being managed outside the traditional structures but how they are being set up is a political decision.

I cannot add anything on simplification. I can only repeat what I said. We always promote it. We are always asking people to use simplified cost options and lump-sum payments. In agriculture and other areas, such as Erasmus grants or whatever else it might be, because they are entitlement-based, there is less room for error. We do have errors. There was a case in Sicily this year in respect of a lemon tree orchard that had no lemon trees. We asked how the Commission did not find out because it uses satellites all the time. There were no lemon trees in that case. That is the type of error we would identify.

As I say, we constantly try to encourage simplification but member states sometimes say these simplification rules make things more complicated. They seem a great idea in theory. In fact, the RRF is probably the best example. It was sold by the Commission as being simple and easy to implement. If you were to ask the authorities here, they would say the administrative burden is unbelievable. Sometimes it does not work out as foreseen. We will continue to strive to encourage it.

I thank Mr. Murphy for his presentation. It is heavy information for us to get our heads around, containing many acronyms. He spoke about these spending errors. I presume it is not possible to get to zero. What would be considered an acceptable level of error given the size of spending and the scale of what he is reviewing? This may have been touched upon previously. When we talk about the financial risks the EU is facing, is anything coming down the tracks that may not have crossed Mr. Murphy's desk yet, possibly relating to what is happening in the Middle East and any other global factors that might impact on his work for next year or even for the next five years?

Mr. Tony Murphy

The first question is the easy one. There is an internationally accepted 2%, which is the materiality threshold. If it is under 2%, it is a clean opinion. If it is over 2%, it is either qualified or adverse depending on how pervasive the error is. Across the board we have errors and in our high-risk population it is 6%. That is why we give an adverse opinion.

In terms of work it is funny what the Senator said. All of a sudden when the crisis in the Middle East broke out, the questions we were being asked in different forums moved from Ukraine to Palestine overnight.

Mr. Tony Murphy

We have been auditing. It is a bit like what I was asked earlier. In terms of security, that is our chamber III. They basically audit budgetary support to third countries and obviously Palestine would be one of them. The Senator will have heard the furore in the Commission where the Commissioner said he would stop it and now he is saying there will be more strings attached or whatever. Again, they are political decisions that we do not get involved in. We have been consistently auditing that. The error rate the Senator referred to earlier is based on transactions across all the different policy areas including this area. Over the past five years, I think we have audited 15 transactions either in Palestine or directly linked to activities in Palestine. By default, because it is a big amount, it comes up in our sample. In our annual report, we highlight examples where we find things like the lemon trees as an example in our box.

We actually have an example from Palestine where nobody knows where the funding is. Money was transferred from a bank to some agency or whatever. We have a chapter on that and it is a box in there. It is approximately €700,000 or something like that. Nobody seems to know where the money actually is and that would be an error, for instance. That is another error in our calculation. Obviously, when we raise these, the Commission has to follow these up and see if it can resolve the issue or if not to try to get the money back. I do not necessarily think Palestine will become a much bigger issue unless there is a specific new scheme or something like that. Ukraine will definitely be a big thing for the next few years. The RRF will keep us occupied for the next few years because of the amount involved. It is supposed to be finished in 2026; we will see. Those are the two.

Energy and climate are issues constantly coming across our desk. I cannot see much changing in that. As Deputy Haughey mentioned, the biggest area will probably be the non-lethal aid or whatever. For the first time, an EU budget is being devoted to defence. We can see that we will have to invest some more time on that. That will probably become a bigger volume of work in future.

Mr. Murphy said he had had discussions with Irish officials on what they regard as some challenging aspects of accessing the RRF. I ask him to elaborate on what is coming up with member states as to why it is not being accessed to the extent we would expect.

Mr. Tony Murphy

There are a number of reasons. First, the terms were devised at a different time almost. It was before the war and things have changed. The milestones in the original plans are just not achievable anymore. There has been some renegotiation of plans. Then there was the RePowerEU chapter, which was added to the different plans, linked to the energy crisis. The original idea was a very simple plan - do all this and get all this money. Things have just evolved. We have seen what happens in some member states where the government might change and their priorities might not be in line with the priorities outlined in the plan for the member states. There is not a simple answer. It is a whole combination of factors which have complicated it.

The original idea was to give the money upfront to basically encourage member states, particularly big member states that have not been implementing structural reforms for years such as Italy and Spain. They were not doing it through the European semester process. Basically, this was a carrot to provide money not linked to cost. This is the big difference for us and why it is difficult to audit. They do not incur costs and then get the money back. They get the money upfront and spend the money further down the line and it is not directly linked. This was the second year of RRF. In the first year there was only one payment to Spain. It got €11.5 billion for 52 reforms. There were no costs involved in that.

When did Spain get that?

Mr. Tony Murphy

That was in December 2021. It has got another two or three payments since. It has got a lot of money out of it. Spain and Italy are the two big beneficiaries.

Has Spain done what it was supposed to do?

Mr. Tony Murphy

This is the whole thing about being a performance-based instrument. How can the performance of a reform be measured? A country just passes a law or something like that. We need to wait to see. It takes time to evaluate these things. That is why I say we do not call it a performance-based instrument; we call it an implementation-based instrument. A country implements something and then gets the money. In terms of performance, we will have to see much further down the road whether the reforms have the impact that was wanted.

That is interesting.

The witnesses are all very welcome. It is always good to have another Murphy.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Two more even.

That just shows how bad my eyesight is.

We generally ask questions on the whole scenario of tight auditing and making sure there is no corruption. At times, particularly in the beginning, we fixated on this but it is just the lie of the land in that regard in general terms. What applications has this State made to the RRF?

I ask this on the chance that I might be able to get an answer. There is considerable conversation at the minute about trade deals. Mr. Murphy comes from an accounting point of view and all the rest of it. Would he or anyone be able to provide any information on the Israel-EU Association Agreement? I know there is considerable conversation about the constraints relating to humanitarian abuses and particular constraints that need to be dealt with. I am wondering about the mechanisms for enforcing that. There are different views about what is going on in the Middle East between people who can obviously watch the news and see that there is absolute slaughter versus those who have a security relationship and business relationship with the Israelis. To a degree at times, it is given some sort of cover on the basis of what was European antisemitism, pogroms and obviously the genocidal-----

The focus of the committee is on the audit. That is closer to the motion being debated in the Dáil Chamber than it is our work in this committee.

I get that and I understand it is a stretch. However, any information Mr. Murphy might be able to give would be welcome. I just provided some element of context and I was finished.

I shall hand over to Mr. Murphy. I do not know how he will deal with that one.

Mr. Tony Murphy

The first one was easy again. As the Deputy knows, the RRF was basically €914 million. Ireland made its first claim for €324 million on 8 September.

Mr. Tony Murphy

These would be milestones and targets. It is paid in instalments.

What are the projects?

Mr. Tony Murphy

There are nine projects and related reforms. There is a railway down in Cork and things like that, but the Irish one, at €914 million, is quite small. Basically, there are different targets that have been-----

Is Mr. Murphy saying it should be bigger?

Mr. Tony Murphy

It can always be bigger. As the Deputy knows, this is all based on the economic figures. It is-----

We have recovered rather well.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Yes, we have recovered rather well so this, while not exactly a penalty, is the result of doing well vis-à-vis other member states. They get more of the money.

What kind of reforms are we talking about?

Sorry Deputy, but we should stick to the format agreed.

Mr. Tony Murphy

The first one involved 36 milestones and five targets. Again, it is about things like jobs and skills, a programme for bringing skills, the capacity of technological universities, digital transition through the digitalisation of public administration and the connection of schools to the broadband network, as well as preparation for and starting work. There can be stages along the way. Other ones include the rehabilitation of peatlands, the electrification of public transport in Cork, which I mentioned already, investments in the energy efficiency of public buildings and the upgrade of wastewater treatment plants. That is, generally speaking, what these milestones and targets relate to and on this basis, if the Commission assesses that they have been satisfactorily fulfilled, they will get the €324 million in due course. That is on the RRF.

We touched on the situation in the Middle East earlier. We audit the money, basically. We explained that we have audited a number of transactions in Palestine over the past five years. We have audited roughly 15 and have given the example of an error where the money is somewhere out there but no one knows where exactly. It is an error and a particular example of one that is included in our annual report. In terms of trade deals, again if there is money directly linked we will follow the money but in terms of managing things, we are not involved. We will check how the Commission manages. I have to say that this was not on the radar of anybody a few weeks ago. All of a sudden, however, it has almost replaced Ukraine as the topic we are asked about the most. We already have our plan for 2024 which will be published in the next couple of weeks. We have devised that based on the priorities that we identified at the time but that does not mean that if something comes up, we cannot change or adjust our plan. The particular issue the Deputy mentioned would not feature in our overall plan, although it is extremely important politically and extremely sensitive.

I was just looking for information in relation to it. I understand that there are constraints the Israelis need to deal with but I am not entirely sure how the mechanism will kick into play. I would have worries about that and was hoping Mr. Murphy might be able to shed some light on it. I understand that I am pushing the boundaries as regards his remit.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As usual.

The other issue is corruption. The European Court of Auditors did a huge amount of due diligence but I remember at times we would see figures and ask what was happening in relation to payments. It was probably more of a case of people not fitting the criteria rather than corruption.

Mr. Tony Murphy

It is not corruption. The increase is not due to corruption or fraud as such. As the Deputy knows, we are an audit institution. We have to look out for suspicion of fraud and if we find it, we report it to OLAF and EPPO, which are the two competent bodies to deal with that.

Mr. Murphy said earlier that there were a number of investigations but that there had never been any major findings in the last period, during his term. Is that correct?

Mr. Tony Murphy

These things take time.

I understand that.

Mr. Tony Murphy

Some of the cases that were finalised during my time would have been sent a couple of years ago. They give us a running total. They will tell us that three of our cases have been closed, for example. Let us say, for instance, we send them 15 cases. They will tell us that they have decided, on the basis of a preliminary assessment, to drop them because obviously they have limited resources and have to prioritise. Based on the closed investigations from 2011 to 2022, they have recommended the recovery of €542 million. That is based on cases we have sent to them.

They could be fairly interesting cases.

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I said earlier, there is pressure and there is a trend in terms of us identifying potential cases and forwarding them. It all takes time. What we send this year will not be in our report until next year. They all pass through me and I have to send them on. I have noted a slight increase in the number of cases but these are only suspicions and they may end up being nothing. We have to have professional scepticism. I would always err on the side of forwarding. We do not do any filtering or make a decision ourselves, we just pass the cases on without any further intervention. We let the experts deal with them.

That concludes this round. Before Deputy Howlin comes back in, I want to pose some questions.

I do not know if this can be seen as me causing trouble but I want to go back to the point made by Deputy Howlin in respect of the level of debt being incurred, the borrowing that is being done and the ratio involved. There has been exponential growth in that. At what point does the auditing function come in to point out the potentially catastrophic situation that could arise? I ask that because if we go back to the debt crisis of a number of years ago, local government in certain member states was borrowing at a completely ridiculous rate. Eventually, that got picked up by central government, by the states themselves but because it was being done in an off-balance sheet or off-observation way, it did not become a particular issue for citizens or central governments until it had reached a crisis point. It is a question of when to say stop and that worries me hugely. Should there be a role for the auditing authority to say that there is a potential for this to go wrong? As Mr. Murphy stated, there is already an acknowledgement that the end game rests with the member states having to pay it. There will be governments elected in member states over the next five years which will campaign on the basis of them not being liable to pay anything. The undermining of the entire European funding model is at stake here. The worst problems are always incurred by things that are put in place to deal with a crisis. Everybody's attention is off the ball in terms of the back-end regulatory stuff and the long term implications because they are all trying to dig themselves out of the current hole they are in. Should the court of auditors not be shouting louder and harder? Should it not be saying that this has to stop?

Mr. Tony Murphy

As I said, we are doing that. I was at the Ecofin last week presenting our annual report to the ministers for finance of the member states and this is the message we were raising. We raised the same message in the European Parliament. We raise the message to the legislators but ultimately it is their decision. We do try to raise the risks. Just to put the figure into context, it is €344 billion at the moment but there is still another €220 billion in loans to be drawn down for grants and that will be done before the end of 2026, most likely. We are looking at over €500 billion, which is quite a lot of money. I fully agree with the Cathaoirleach which is why the messages we keep putting across are that the EU has postponed the problem and pushed it down the road. We jokingly say that the NextGenerationEU instrument is very well named because it is the next generation who are going to have to pay for it. That is what we consistently say. As I pointed out in the presentation, the debt is linked to the source of funding. It is linked to own resources or wherever it is going to come from and I fully agree on that. That is why I said that we are coming to a point where serious decisions are going to have to be made about where we are going.

I remember at a previous committee meeting, a member said it was an amazing turnaround for the EU to start borrowing on the markets to fund budgetary expenditure and asked me whether I thought it would continue. It may have been Deputy Howlin. These, again, are political decisions. They are taken by the ministers of finance of all the EU member states. We can only raise the issues with them. Ultimately, they are saying this is the way they want to fund the RRF. The member states effectively are guaranteeing the loans and this is where we are.

There is also concern about what will happen when the RRF finishes? Will there be another RRF? Will it be MFF-plus? What will happen? This is why I say this. As I said, we can already see the problems the EU is having negotiating the extra €66 billion for the mid-term review. I hear different stories, for example, that the EU is hoping to get this done by the end of the year, particularly for Ukraine, because it feeds into the whole American support system and the EU needs to be able to say Europe is giving X amount. There is no certainty that this will be resolved because of the budgetary pressures in member states. Someone has to pay the price; that is the problem. It goes to back to the first question Deputy Howlin asked, namely, whether the EU has the capacity to deliver what it wants to do.

That brings me to the second part of the point I was going to make specifically on Ukraine. Like others, I am pragmatic on these things. Funding mechanisms are put in place to get around problems that exist on the ground, particularly when a union of 27 sovereign states is trying to figure out how to do something. With regard to the role of the Court of Auditors, looking at one aspect, it is blatantly 100% obvious that Ukraine does not have the capacity to repay a loan. Therefore, can auditing sign off on it being deemed to be a loan? Let us say I go outside this building, randomly hand €1,000 to somebody on the street and tell that person the money is a loan. I do not know how it will every be paid back or how I will get it back. If I did that on a regular basis, my bank manager would tell me I cannot do that and the bank will not give me any more money to hand out. When does the audit function say to the Council function, “Hang on a second, this cannot be classified in this way”? Ironically, the only way Ukraine could repay those loans is a Marshall Plan to the power of 100, being paid this time by the European Union and not the United States. I think it is clear at this stage that whatever about what might happen in Palestine, there is no question that United States money will not be the lead money. European Union money will be required to be the lead money in rebuilding Ukraine. Where do we call a halt? At what point do the auditors step in and say this should be accounted for in a different way?

Mr. Tony Murphy

The issue is a bit different from the Cathaoirleach giving €1,000 to a guy on the street in that these loans are all backed by the member states. That is the security. There is a guarantee. I understand the Cathaoirleach’s point. In addition, there is a provisioning mechanism in place. For the €33 billion, I think there is a provisioning of €2.5 billion or similar. It is like all EU loans, even those that go through the EIB. There is a provisioning there of 9% or 8% and if the rest needs to be called up, the member states have to pay. That is the mechanism. It is officially given as a loan even though, as the Cathaoirleach said, the likelihood is that it will not be repaid. However, until that decision is taken, we can probably refer to it in a note in the accounts in terms of the risk. This is why we highlight the fact that the risk of exposure to Ukraine has doubled. We are highlighting these issues to make sure that, down the road, this does not come as a big surprise to everybody.

What I was getting at with the two questions is at what point the ECA switches from highlighting to calling a halt?

Mr. Tony Murphy

I do not think we can call a halt. That is the problem. In terms of the governance structure, the Council is the key. We audit what it has legislated for. If I were to criticise that, the Council would say we are acting completely outside of our mandate, we are getting into the political domain, it is none of our business, these are decisions taken by the proper authorities and the ECA’s role is to see how these decisions are implemented.

The ECA does not have the audit function of a private company. I know there was an allusion made to that. It is the job of an auditor of a private company, when management comes out with a line like that, to say “Well, do you know what guys?” There are certain recent examples in this State where perhaps the auditors should have stepped in at an earlier stage and said that while it may not be their job to tell someone how to run the business, it is also not their job to put their name to the way the business is being running it either and, therefore, they are off. I know we cannot change the EU structure. It is just a point I wanted to make.

Deputy Howlin indicated.

We are pressured for time.

Yes, we are. With that, I thank Mr. Murphy for the information he has provided and his engagement. It has been useful to the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.26 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 December 2023.
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