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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 2010

Banking Crisis: Discussion with Mr. Peter Mathews

I welcome Mr. Peter Mathews, financial consultant who addressed the committee previously on the same subject, NAMA and the banking crisis.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. The witness is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and the witness is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, the witness should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Since Mr. Mathews's last appearance before the committee, Professor Honohan, Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Max Watson and Mr. Klaus Regling, and also the banks, have been before the committee.

I invite Mr. Mathews to give his views.

Mr. Peter Mathews

I thank the Chairman and Members of the Oireachtas for inviting me back to the committee. It was unfortunate that the first time around, Klaus Regling had to come in to brief the members and catch a flight back to Berlin so the meeting was truncated and finished earlier than one would have liked. I am here again and unfortunately, the meeting has been front-loaded this time, with Anglo Irish Bank from 12.30 p.m. to 3 p.m. I hope my car is not being clamped because I put in the maximum stipend.

I am sure the Chairman can help. He has a petty cash fund.

Mr. Peter Mathews

This is all in the national interest. As I said in my opening remarks, it took six years to cook this time bomb and it merits more than a few minutes or even a couple of hours of independent, conscientiously researched and analysed information.

I have given the members of the committee four or five pages of a dossier of summary overview of the recapitalisation requirements of the viable banks. It has become apparent since the meltdown in September 2008 and it should have been anticipated by professional people carrying out their professional duties and professional work competently, that there was going to be very big depletion of capital by way of loan losses on very carelessly increased loan portfolios across the system.

The figures on the first two pages show that between AIB, Bank of Ireland and EBS, which is a viable organisation that took just one step too far and luckily it was a short-time and fairly short step into commercial property lending, the requirement of recapitalisation for those three institutions is about €17.5 billion. It arises from a very simple and a very honest calculation of the loans identified as being badly made and listed for NAMA purposes. In the case of AIB, the figure is €24 billion in loans and in the case of Bank of Ireland, €16 billion of loans. If one applies a fair and accurate — as it turns out and probably maybe even understated — 40% write-off against those loans it results in figures of €9.6 billion and €6.4 billion, respectively, for the two banks which should be rounded to €10 billion and €6.5 billion as their capital replacement requirement now.

We have been fed the story, unfortunately, that in the course of the year up to the end of this current calendar year, by a mixture of asset sales and reorganisation and realisation of assets, such as the sale of a bank or the sale of part of a bank, in the case of AIB, or the sale of a building society in the case of Bank of Ireland, and by way of a placing and a rights issue in the case of Bank of Ireland, they will arrive at what has been declared by them and given the approval — I will not say it was a cheerful or strong approval of the regulator and the Governor of the Central Bank — that it should be all right to have €7.4 billion at the end of a year for AIB and €3.65 or €3.7 billion in the case of Bank of Ireland. We have just seen that those figures do not address what a simple calculation, by reference to simple facts, simple market conditions, indicates.

This question is so big and the clock is ticking and it is 3.10 p.m. We have heard the presentation from Anglo Irish Bank, its chairman, its managing director and its chief financial officer. It was a three-stage introduction. In the first case the chairman said that the credentials of the board were undoubted and that it was an excellent new board with the arrival of three new people who have extensive experience and qualifications. In a subsequent debate Senator Ross pointed out that perhaps the selection criteria were not ideal because of some of the more recent responsibilities of one or two of those board members. I agree with that. One should persist with the argument. Two reports were published last week, one by Professor Honohan, the Governor of the Central Bank, and the other by Klaus Regling and Max Watson, the independent international consultants. In the case of Patrick Honohan's report the conclusions, which have not received much consideration and digestion by the press, are very easy to read and they cover only three pages. They are quite incisive in what they say. In pedestrian-speak they say that governance by directors in the banking sector was pretty appalling and in turn, above that, the supervision by regulation was appalling. Surprisingly, it says also that it would have taken courage for people a little bit removed and lower down the scale to persist in their views or inquiries about whatever they were doing in the course of their work. I found that breath-taking because everyone must be courageous in the course of their duties every day. I refer to policemen, firemen, nurses and doctors. One cannot just sleepwalk during work. That is what happened and that was wrong. That is why, as many of the independent commentators have said, that question marks remain over directors who are still on the boards of those institutions who were there at the time, unless they have evidence that they objected to the strategies and gave them thought and, on balance, gave approval to increase the size of a bank or to increase the loan activities in certain areas at alarming and massive rates by reference to any historical context in banking. Compound growth rates of more than 20% and 30% a year are shocking. They impair and imperil customers' deposits. A flagrant lack of fiduciary responsibility was evident. Auditors who did not see that, draw attention to it and flag it in bold, red typeface in their reports also failed in their professional duty.

This country is in a serious place at the moment. A total of €120 billion in very bad lending took place in approximately four and a half years.

Could Mr. Mathews break that figure down between the institutions?

Mr. Peter Mathews

Yes. There was a total of €397 billion. The information was on a sheet I gave members some time ago. Approximately €125 billion related to AIB's total loan book. Approximately €130 billion related to Bank of Ireland.

What about the €120 billion to which Mr. Mathews referred?

Mr. Peter Mathews

What I have done is use the €80 billion of loans that were identified as a base for NAMA purposes. My experience is extensive in this area. Some of it has been repaid but by experienced estimates there was €40 billion in addition to that €80 billion. One should not get hung up on those figures. One should stay with the figures they have given us. I have only used those figures for the purpose of doing the calculations. We just heard half an hour ago that in the case of Anglo Irish Bank the €72 billion loan book roughly divides into two lots of €36 billion in terms of what is going into NAMA.

It is half and half.

Mr. Peter Mathews

The chairman said that Anglo Irish Bank is a new animal. We have got rid of €36 billion and the remaining €36 billion divides into approximately €24 billion and €12 billion or €23 billion and €13 billion. They said there is a residual €12 billion to €14 billion of good loans that could be the base for a new bank and the other loans would be run down over a period.

If the chairman thinks we have a new animal with a new board, I suggest that the animal that has been created is a trojan horse which has come in to tax the taxpayers unnecessarily. Of the €120 billion of bad lending that was done, €80 billion has been declared but a total of €50 billion will never be collected.

On what is that figure based?

Mr. Peter Mathews

They have declared it already. Of the loans going into NAMA they have told us that 55% of them will not be collected. In the case of AIB, even for the purpose of showing that its capital requirement is €9.6 billion — we can round it to €10 billion — I have only taken a 40% write-down level. Let us get to the truth, because if we can measure the truth of where this country lies we will have a far better chance of addressing matters and getting it right.

By coincidence, yesterday when Patrick Honohan, the Governor of the Central Bank, was presenting to the committee — I read the report and what he said was apt — he advised to perhaps hold back from going into a juggernaut six-month commission of investigation that might not know where to go. He said to hold back and start thinking about what one wants to do with that six months. He suggested that perhaps the starting point, which comes from the point at which he arrived in his conclusions, would be that what auditors, accountants and directors did merited examination under a magnifying glass. I agree with that.

I will be truthful and say that my experience and judgment tells me it will require €60 billion rather than €50 billion to be written off in order to get it right. That bill must be split among the people in this country who bore responsibility for it; those who backed it and who put the funds forward that created those assets that cannot be collected. In the first instance they were the banks. What are the banks? They are their shareholders and the people who provide capital to them by way of long-term loan capital — the people who consider themselves savvy, educated, smart and intelligent, who can put their money in for long terms of perhaps five, six or ten years by way of loan notes and bonds. They are the guys who said they could keep the sort of regulation overview control they like on banks because they could ensure the boards of directors would do the things they thought should be done and in turn the pension fund managers who were the shareholders, to some extent in the banks, also felt that they could exert the control and checks that they wanted in the banks, but they did not and they failed. The people who supplied the bulk of the funds necessary to do business for banks were the depositors. They are not savvy. They are the people who save for five, ten or 20 years in after-tax savings. They have entrusted that money to the banks and not alone did the banks lend it all instead of keeping some of it back but they lent even more on the short-term wholesale markets.

Are we just talking about the past?

Mr. Peter Mathews

We are not.

I would like Mr. Mathews to move on to the future because my concern is that we would spend all of our time looking at the past rather than asking where we should go from here.

Based on the figures provided to recapitalise the banks, in Mr. Mathews's considered opinion, are they sufficient, and what figure would he consider is required?

Mr. Peter Mathews

My analysis which is supported by independent analysts——

Will Mr. Mathews give a figure?

Mr. Peter Mathews

It is €17.5 billion on top of what has already been invested, namely, €3.5 billion each to Bank of Ireland and AIB. We will be able to recover by putting in new capital to those two banks, owning them in sufficient——

How much is required above what the Government is proposing to invest?

Mr. Peter Mathews

Out of the €17.5 billion that is needed in those two banks, I propose that the Government would put in up to €10 billion and that the bondholders in those two big banks——

Currently, AIB is seeking €9.5 billion——

Mr. Peter Mathews

No, it is €7.4 billion.

What is Bank of Ireland seeking?

Mr. Peter Mathews

It is seeking €3.6 billion or €3.7 billion.

What about Irish Nationwide?

Mr. Peter Mathews

No, Deputy O'Donnell should forget it as it should be wound up.

Let us say €9.4 billion. One is talking about €12 billion, which is an extra €5 billion.

Mr. Peter Mathews

Irish Nationwide should be wound up, as should Anglo Irish Bank. I have provided members with a sheet outlining the least-cost options of doing that.

How much additional funds are required for AIB and Bank of Ireland above the €9.4 billion for the former and the €3.6 billion for the latter? I am sorry, it is €7.4 billion for AIB.

Mr. Peter Mathews

AIB and Bank of Ireland need €16.5 billion between them in fresh capital, but it does not have to come from the State.

That is an extra €4.5 billion.

Mr. Peter Mathews

This is important. Professor Edward Kane, who coined the term "zombie banks" and who is a respected international commentator and analyst in this area, like Professor Joseph Stiglitz and others about whom members read in the papers, was in Ireland and spoke on Newstalk. He would agree 100% that the extension of the safety net for the banks is wrong because it does not address the problem of who put the capital up in the first place to create the mess, the size of the mess and who should bear the cost of cleaning it up. In this case, the bondholders, even those in AIB and Bank of Ireland, should be contributing somewhat to the €16.5 billion. Some €1 billion of the €17.5 billion is required by EBS.

In the case of Anglo Irish Bank, we know there is approximately €2.1 billion remaining in subordinated debt. It should be written down 100%; there is no discussion about that. That the bondholders in the bank sold back their bonds to the bank shows they expect to get nothing back. It is, therefore, absurd that they should be holding on to this mirage.

The law shows that creditors in the shape of senior bondholders and deposit holders share pari passu in a liquidation. This is such an unusual case the Government should have the courage and truthfulness to say the temporary blanket guarantee that saved it nearly two years of delay in taking any pain should now be withdrawn and they should be discussed in the overall decision on what to do with the bank.

The case of Anglo Irish Bank is simple in that it will not change by allowing the terminal disease to remain latent in the corpse. If there is a residual portfolio of €12 billion on the balance sheet of Anglo Irish Bank, it should be sold to some other sizeable property fund, which would cash it in and wind up the rest. To be creating the nonsense of a vehicle, shifting €36 billion in really bad loans to NAMA, the taxpayer, without any certainty is inappropriate. There will never be any certainty over what will be realised. Doubling the cost of the realisations and recoveries does not make sense.

The absurdity is that the staff of the chairman and managing director of Anglo Irish Bank, and the finance director, who was at this committee, have NAMA divisions doing NAMA work by way of subcontract or receiving instructions on what to do. Both the NAMA divisions of Anglo Irish Bank, which are off-site but doing the work, are receiving professional advice from solicitors and valuers, as are those associated with the remaining portfolios——

What would Mr. Mathews advise?

Mr. Peter Mathews

I advise that Anglo Irish Bank be closed down. Everybody who has done the honest sums would advise this also.

What about the argument being put forward by Anglo Irish Bank to the effect that it will cost it another €8 billion and €2.5 billion to get a good bank going, and that if one were to close the bank in the morning, there would be firesales, thus resulting in the loss of further funds? That may not be my view but it is that of Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr. Peter Mathews

History and experience do not support that at all. The bank said that when it was producing the 2008 and 2009 accounts, the market was falling and that is why it did not make the provisions it should have made. Anybody who had learned from the experience of property lending in the 1980s would have known provisions should have been ramped right up.

I told Mr. Maurice Keane, one of the directors, at Christmas in 2008 that the loan losses across the banking sector would not be less than €50 billion.

Mr. Alan Dukes referred to the methodology of Mr. Mathews and perhaps others.

Mr. Peter Mathews

I am a chartered accountant.

He said it was based on historical circumstances but that the circumstances of today are a different ball game.

Mr. Peter Mathews

I want to take up that remark. He said that we were in an unusually tight liquidity situation, which prevents the alternatives people suggested for NAMA. That is wrong.

I would like the chairman of Anglo Irish Bank to read Hank Paulson's book On the Brink, which is worthy of mention. Mr. Paulson was the Treasury Secretary in the United States. The US Legislature brought forward the troubled assets relief programme Bill on the basis that the toxic assets would be bought off the banks by the Treasury.

Was he in Goldman Sachs?

Mr. Peter Mathews

He was in previous years.

I have to go to a vote.

I apologise to Mr. Mathews. There is a vote.

Mr. Peter Mathews

The Americans realise buying toxic assets was the most impracticable and most costly and inefficient way of dealing with the problem, which was one of both solvency and liquidity. Through injecting the right amount of capital and buying no toxic assets, and using the capital as it did, the Treasury gave €125 billion without discussion to the nine biggest banks in the United States. There is a multiplier effect of ten when one injects capital.

Since members need to attend votes, would it be possible for Mr. Mathews to consider the Anglo Irish Bank circumstances as they move on?

Mr. Peter Mathews

I would like to go over all the points made and help the committee to understand them.

Mr. Mathews has made a very good contribution. He expressed alternative views, which is very important.

Mr. Peter Mathews

The truth is very important.

Senator Quinn should note Professor Honohan, as Governor of the Central Bank, has an overarching duty to support Government policy. He can do nothing. People ask him about the way in which we are addressing the problem and he says he believes NAMA is viable. That is not the same as saying it is good. I do not believe he believes it is good. The alternative, pursued in the United States, has been far more efficient. This was done 19 months ago. The Treasury put capital into the banks, which gives a ten-fold multiplier strengthening effect to the balances in the banks.

Mr. Mathews is talking about adding to the reserves of the banks rather than a NAMA approach.

Mr. Peter Mathews

It means temporary nationalisation but this does not matter as it does not matter who owns the banks. It is a matter of getting the capital in.

Mr. Mathews, you have given us sufficient food for thought, on which we can submit a report to the Minister for Finance. If Mr. Mathews has further ideas, he can submit them to the clerk. I refer to his views on the reports of Messrs Regling and Watson and Professor Honohan.

Mr. Peter Mathews

Messrs Regling and Watson stepped out of this room and the microphones were stuck in front of them. They were asked questions and they said Ireland has not been destroyed, life is going on and that one should not feel down. One would say this when going home after issuing a report. I would say this.

Messrs Regling and Watson went a bit further and the journalist said they believe the Government has made a good job of things since the crisis. That was unqualified and unfounded and we do not know the basis on which Messrs Regling and Watson said that. It is not known whether anything else had been discussed. It was outside their remit. Their remit was only to——

Unfortunately we must leave because there is another committee coming in. If Mr. Mathews submits his views to the clerk, we will take them into account.

Mr. Peter Mathews

The committee members got meaningless information for two hours.

I appreciate Mr. Mathews's comments.

Mr. Peter Mathews

The Anglo Irish Bank delegates referred to €22 billion. I wanted to ask a question on this. The sum of €22 billion is not the extent of the losses under their scheme. It will be €32 billion. The reason is that there is €10 billion more to come out of the €36 billion they are retaining, which is a mixture of €12 billion and €24 billion. They have admitted that nobody has read the accounts but the €24 billion has a 60% non-performance level and provisioning level.

We look forward to receiving your information.

Mr. Peter Mathews

Just get me onto the thing again please.

Thank you for attending this meeting. It is a pity we do not have longer to speak with you. As there is no other business, the meeting is adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 7 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 June 2010.
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