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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Sep 2023

General Banking Issues: Discussion

We have received apologies from Senator Higgins. Earlier on, during private session, we dealt with the minutes of our meeting of 20 September and they were agreed.

Today we are dealing with banking issues. I welcome representatives from Bank of Ireland, Permanent TSB, AIB, and Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI. We are joined by Mr. Eamonn Crowley, CEO of Permanent TSB, Mr. Patrick Farrell, director of retail banking at Permanent TSB, Mr. Brian Hayes, chief executive of BPFI, Dr. Ali Ugur, chief economist and head of prudential regulation at BPFI, Dr. Colin Hunt, CEO of AIB, Ms Elaine Downey, head of products in AIB, Mr. Tom Kinsella, managing director of homes in AIB, Mr. Myles O'Grady, Group CEO of Bank of Ireland, and Ms Susan Russell, CEO of Irish retail, Bank of Ireland.

I remind members and witnesses of the note on privilege. Members are covered by full privilege when attending on the campus of Leinster House. Outside of that there may just be limited privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person concerned.

We will have three opening statements from Dr. Hunt, Mr. O'Grady and Mr. Hayes and we will take them in that order. I invite Dr. Hunt to make his opening statement.

Dr. Colin Hunt

I thank the committee for inviting us here this afternoon. I am joined today by two senior colleagues from our retail division, Elaine Downey, our head of products and Tom Kinsella, our managing director of our homes business. I would like to begin with an overview of what we have been doing at AIB since I was last here.

AIB Group now serves a record 3.2 million personal, household and business customers. Close to 650,000 of those customer accounts have been opened over the past 18 months as we welcomed significant numbers of people and businesses from Ulster and KBC banks. As in the case of other industries, our products and services are increasingly offered and delivered online and on mobile. We have 2.2 million digital customers, and growing, the largest digital customer base in Ireland, while in the current year we have seen a 12% increase in the daily average use of the mobile channel. We understand the requirement on the part of some of our customers for direct engagement at times, and our network of close to 250 AIB and EBS branches will continue to provide this service throughout the country. We are also a major employer in Ireland, with close to 10,000 dedicated staff supporting our growing business and customer base.

AIB is an important engine of investment and growth in the Irish economy and supports more than €61 billion in customer lending, including more than €30 billion in mortgage loans, where we are a market leader. Within this wider portfolio and throughout all our operations, sustainability represents a key strategic objective. We have led the way in Ireland in this regard through initiatives such as the raising of green bonds, which is a new source of capital for investment in sustainable infrastructure, and our partnership with NTR plc that will source the bulk of our future energy requirements from solar farms in Wexford. A significant proportion of our new lending is already validated as green, and our target is for that proportion to grow to 70% of the total by 2030.

Our current strategic planning cycle is drawing to a close and has fulfilled its objective of transforming AIB into a full-service financial services group. In doing so, we have delivered strong and sustainable growth over its three-year term, both from existing operations and via acquisitions such as Goodbody and new joint ventures such as AIB life, which will serve as a platform for growth into the future. Our profits have also recovered well over the period due to the factors I have outlined and the robust performance of the Irish economy, despite many challenges. Over the past 12 months, profit recovery has also been sustained by the unprecedented series of interest rate increases instigated by the European Central Bank, ECB, to tackle inflationary pressures. This process has reversed the impact of a long period during which Irish banks’ net interest margins were severely curtailed. We are likely approaching the top, if we are not at the top, of this intensive interest rate cycle, and it is to be hoped we are entering a more stable and normalised period from next year, though the era of ultra-low and negative rates is unlikely to return.

Banks, like all other commercial enterprises, need to generate adequate and sustainable returns on the capital we use. Crucially, given our systemic relationship with the wider economy, this capital generation helps build the reserves required by regulators to sustain continued prudent lending and to prepare for the next inevitable economic downturn or an unanticipated disruptive event such as Covid 19. We also need adequate capital to drive continuous investment in digital and product innovation and to protect our systems and customers from increasingly sophisticated cyber threats and attacks. We also have a responsibility to make appropriate dividend payments to shareholders to provide a return on their investment, repay them for their support and sustain their confidence in our business model. In AIB’s case, our majority shareholder is the Irish State, with a 46% holding. This has fallen from 71% over the past 20 months and has helped bring the overall return to the Exchequer to date from AIB to €13.3 billion. One of our key objectives is to continue optimising these ongoing returns to taxpayers by maintaining our prudent growth and the platform it provides for investment, and a dividend distribution policy aligned to international norms.

During this recent period of rapid increases in interest rates, AIB has endeavoured to bring a measured approach to lending and deposit pricing, mindful of the key role retail banks play in implementing ECB monetary policy. In this context, we have refrained from passing the full impact of rising rates to our mortgage customers, who are facing other inflationary pressures. We have also positioned our deposit pricing for customers who may have excess funds in current accounts or low-yielding demand deposit accounts and who can now avail of higher returns of up to 3% in fixed-term savings products. We will continue to keep our pricing and policy under review as ECB policy evolves and, hopefully, as inflationary pressures stabilise.

As previously mentioned, mortgage lending represents approximately half of our loan portfolio, and we remain a market leader in mortgage lending. It is an important market for us, but we are also mindful that for our customers these loans represent much more than an economic transaction. They enable them to buy homes for themselves and their families and they likely represent the most important financial transaction of their lives. While close to 60% of our mortgage customers are currently on fixed rates, we know that rapid increases in interest rates make loan repayments more challenging for many mortgage customers. Thus far, thankfully, we have not seen any material increase in potential or actual arrears but we are aware this situation may change and we keep it under constant review.

We are, and have been, proactive in engaging with our customers and encouraging them to discuss any problems they may face or are concerned about. We have a broad range of forbearance measures and alternative repayment arrangements in place which have, over the past decade, enabled tens of thousands of our customers to work through their difficulties and remain in their homes. In this context, we have also provided strong support for the Dealing With Debt information campaign run by BPFI and the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, to get the same message out to all challenged borrowers. We are also cognisant of the impact of the succession of interest rate rises on those borrowers who had previously experienced repayment difficulties and whose impaired loan accounts are now owned by a credit servicing firm. As committee members are aware, we have recently joined the other pillar banks, non-bank lenders and credit servicing firms, under the auspices of BPFI, to communicate minimum collective criteria by which some of these borrowers may be eligible to switch their loans. This initiative and others by the credit servicing firms to provide the hardest pressed borrowers with alternative repayment arrangements has the support of the Department of Finance, the Central Bank of Ireland and various consumer support agencies such as MABS.

We note the committee's intention to discuss the issue of defective concrete blocks on some of our mortgage customers living in Donegal and other affected counties. We are acutely aware of the anxiety and concern this issue is causing for people, through no fault of their own, and we have put dedicated personnel and resources in place to engage with customer queries.

We have also engaged proactively with BPFI to meet various representative bodies and Departments to seek sustainable funding solutions for those who need them.

We are happy to take questions from members on this and other issues of interest to the committee.

In my opening remarks, I should have mentioned Mr. Crowley will also give an opening statement. I will call on him now, but before I do, I made an even worse error than that. I forgot to mention a former public representative, Walter Lacey, and Kevin Howard are attending in the Public Gallery for Carlow-Kilkenny. That is essential to mention. They are welcome and I hope they enjoy the proceedings.

I invite Mr. Crowley to give his opening statement.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I thank the committee for the invitation. I am joined by my colleague Patrick Farrell, our director of retail banking.

In my last appearance before the committee last year, I set out the bank’s five main priorities: to safely integrate more than €7.6 billion of home loan mortgages, business loans and credit facilities into our business following the acquisition of assets from Ulster Bank; supporting a very substantial number of customers in transferring their banking relationship to Permanent TSB in as smooth and straightforward a manner as possible; preserving jobs and welcoming more than 330 new Ulster Bank colleagues to Permanent TSB; maintaining our support for local communities by enhancing our branch presence in 25 communities across the country, which increases our presence to close to 100 locations nationwide; and continuing to serve and support hundreds of thousands of existing customers and the provision of home loan mortgages and small business finance into the economy.

I am pleased to say that, following our completion of the final elements of the Ulster Bank acquisition earlier this year, we have been successful in achieving all these objectives. This leaves us in a strong position to build on the platform for growth we have created as a bigger bank with many more customers, many more branches and an even stronger competitive proposition. Irish retail banking needs competition more than ever and we plan to play a big role in driving that competition for personal and business customers.

The committee's invitation set out three specific topics that members wish to discuss, namely, interest rates, inflation and the defective block redress scheme. I will make brief comments on each of these.

Regarding interest rates, it is clear we are in a new, higher rate environment and the era of record low rates has come to an end. This has consequences for borrowers and savers. For borrowers, we never lose sight of the fact that higher rates can cause challenges and stresses. We are extremely mindful of the duty we have to our customers to support them when they need it. We showed this during the Covid pandemic, when the industry as a whole worked closely and quickly to put in place effective, workable and sustainable solutions for customers who were suffering as a result of the pandemic. We will continue to support customers who find themselves in difficulty in today’s environment.

I am conscious that higher rates have resulted in higher borrowing costs for customers on variable or tracker rates, for those who may be at the end of a fixed rate term and for those taking out a mortgage for the first time. I think all banks have shown over the past 12 months that, contrary to what some commentators expected, ECB rate increases have not resulted in automatic mortgage rate increases across the board. Members will not need me to tell them that ECB rates have increased ten times, with a cumulative increase of 4.5% since the middle of last year. Our fixed rates for new business have increased by a weighted average of approximately 2.2% over the same period, our standard variable rate has increased by 35 basis points and our managed variable rates have increased by between 5 basis points and 40 basis points.

Prior to the cycle of rate increases, many of our existing customers took advantage of the low interest rate environment to lock in fixed rates for extended periods of up to seven years. This has given them significant certainty and a valuable cushion against the impact of rising rates.

Over 95% of our new mortgage business was written at fixed rates over the past three years. Now that rates have increased, we are seeing a trend towards fixed and variable rates converging. From past experience, this tends to influence customer behaviour as many customers re-evaluate the relative attractiveness of fixed rates compared with variable and vice versa. Some will decide, for example, that opting for a variable rate, even if it is higher than a fixed rate, gives them the possibility of benefiting from falling rates in the future. By contrast, others will favour the certainty that fixed rates can offer. They may choose to forgo the possibility of gaining from future falls in interest rates because being protected from the risk of rates going up is more important to them.

We see our job as offering customers the choice so they can decide what is best suited to their circumstances and needs, backed up by independent financial and legal advice. That is why we need to be competitive on fixed rates and on variable rates and keep our pricing under constant review.

Turning to our deposit customers, I have said it before and I will say it again. Deposit customers have always been and will continue to be very important to our business. Permanent TSB has roots going back more than 200 years as the Trustee Savings Bank. We have a heritage that is firmly rooted in earning the trust of customers who want a safe and stable institution where they can invest their money and earn a reward that is attractive and competitive. That is why we did not charge negative rates for savers when the ECB was offering banks negative interest to hold deposits. In addition, that is why we have made five separate announcements since last November in which we have introduced new and better rates for our deposit customers. They need to be rewarded and see some benefit from that higher interest rate environment. The changes we have announced mean it is now possible for our deposit customers to earn up to 3% on their lump sum fixed term deposits and 2.5% from our regular savings products. Given that we have fixed term mortgage customers who locked in low borrowing rates for long terms, we now have a situation where some of our mortgage borrowers are borrowing at lower rates than we are paying savers on their money. As always, we will keep our deposit rates under review.

Regarding inflation, there are primarily two ways we think about inflation in terms of how we run our business: how it affects our customers and how it affects our colleagues. For our customers, we do not distinguish between people who are experiencing financial difficulty as a result of higher interest rates and people for whom the cost-of-living increase of the past 18 months have been the main driver of the pressure on their finances. We approach each customer in a spirit of working constructively and sympathetically to ensure we can put in place a sustainable arrangement that gives them the breathing space they need until their circumstances improve.

It is important, however, that we also acknowledge the range of support measures the Government introduced to help alleviate the pressures that have arisen over 2022 and 2023. These have been generally very effective in cushioning households from the most extreme effects of higher energy and fuel bills and in helping to protect people’s disposable income.

For our colleagues, we have recognised the difficulties they face as a result of the higher cost of living with selective interventions. In doing so, we make every effort to get the balance right between supporting our colleagues and managing our cost base in a manner that is aligned with our business requirements and our duty to deploy the capital that belongs to the State and other shareholders in the right way.

Turning to the defective block redress scheme, I will conclude with some comments on the difficulties being faced by the people in certain parts of the country whose homes have been compromised by defective building materials. These people are experiencing what can only be described as a nightmare. We are aware of a small number of Permanent TSB customers who have informed us they are in this position, and I state at the outset that we want to treat these people sympathetically and sensitively. They are in an awful situation through no fault of their own. I assure the committee we are fully committed to working with the Government and BPFI on addressing the difficulties they face. I can think of few things that would erode someone’s peace of mind and sense of security in such a devastating manner.

Our job is first and foremost to make sure we do nothing that would add to the considerable levels of distress these people are experiencing. Our intention after that is to be part of an industry-wide solution, taking account of the wider mechanisms the Government is putting in place to achieve a resolution that will be satisfactory to all stakeholders.

I am conscious that I am just one of a number of people who have been invited to address the committee today. Members will want sufficient time for questions and answers and wider discussion, so I will conclude my remarks at that. I thank the committee for listening.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to address the committee this afternoon. I am joined by my colleague, Susan Russell, recently appointed CEO of our retail Ireland division.

Bank of Ireland plays a vital role in supporting the Irish economy and wider society. As one of Ireland’s largest publicly quoted companies and employers, we engage with Oireachtas Members across all parts of the country on a range of policy issues. We welcome that engagement and the opportunity to attend today’s meeting.

This is the first occasion the bank has been at the committee since the State completed the sale of its shareholding.

In that context, I again thank the State for the support we received. We made it a priority to repay the taxpayer as quickly as we could. At the end of the sales process, the bank returned almost €6.7 billion to the State from its original €4.7 billion investment.

At Bank of Ireland, we are ambitious for Ireland’s future. We have more than €49 billion in lending deployed in Ireland. This is helping people buy their own home, with more than 6,000 in the first six months of this year, as well as supporting our 300,000 business and corporate customers. Our ambition is to be the number one partner of choice for wealth and insurance in Ireland, with €42 billion in wealth assets under management currently. Our lending supports vital social and economic goals such as home building. In Ireland, we are funding the construction of approximately 18,000 residential units across 200 sites. Our recent strong financial performance has allowed us to increase our fund for residential development by 70%, to €1.75 billion. This is funding the development of a range of affordable, sustainable and social housing types. At the end of June, Bank of Ireland had €9.7 billion in sustainability related lending, an increase of 18%. We are the largest provider of green new mortgages in Ireland, while also helping business customers decarbonise.

Although our core business is in Ireland, we also have businesses in the UK and international activities in the EU and US. Close to one fifth of our workforce is based outside Ireland. That international reach allows us to help Irish companies expand internationally and to support the work of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. Today, we work with more inward investors to Ireland than any other bank.

In March, we set out a refreshed three-year strategy and, nine months into that strategy, I am pleased the group is delivering for customers, colleagues, shareholders and society. Our strong position allows us to continue to invest significantly in a number of areas, including systems, customer propositions and ways of working for a modern workforce. These investments have delivered customer improvements. We do not always get it right. Unfortunately, the IT outage we experienced during the summer fell far short of our standards. We are committed to continually investing in and improving the services we offer our customers.

The current interest rate environment is, of course, a matter of concern to the committee. Our approach has been to respond to rate changes while doing all we can to ensure customers do not face a repayment challenge with their mortgages. For example, although the ECB has increased rates by 4.5%, we have increased fixed rates by up to 1.75%. We have balanced this by introducing savings rates of up to 3%. Looking at our mortgage book in Ireland, approximately 70% is fixed. The majority of these do not re-price until 2025 at the earliest, protecting our customers from the rate environment. The remainder of our mortgage book are tracker and variable rate loans.

We are very aware some customers may get into financial difficulty and this is something we are closely monitoring. We have a proven track record of working with customers to find sustainable solutions. We have a wide range of options available to support customers, and work through these based on individual circumstances. If any customers are in difficultly or concerned about future repayments, the most important thing is for them to talk to us.

In conclusion, Bank of Ireland is this year celebrating 240 years of serving Irish customers. Our roots can be traced back to the popular demand for an Irish national bank to support commerce and trade. Our mission has not changed. We are here to support the Irish economy to grow and thrive. When Ireland is successful, we are successful. That fundamental fact remains at the heart of our strategy.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. I am joined by Mr. Ali Ugur, our chief economist and head of prudential regulation. I wish to recognise the work of the committee before the summer recess in investigating what we, as a banking and payments sector, are doing along with public authorities to keep customers safe from financial crime and fraud. We welcome the report of the committee, await it with interest and stand ready to engage further with the committee on this important topic.

In the past 14 months, the ECB has increased core interest rates across the eurozone from 0% to 4.5%. This has resulted in a sudden departure from the lower-for-longer interest rate environment. This changed interest rate environment has had a significant impact across the economy, placing many households under greater financial pressure. At the same time, notwithstanding the wider market slowdown in mortgage approval activity, first-time buyer activity remained strong. In the 12 months to July 2023, there were nearly 30,000 first-time buyer mortgages approvals, representing approximately €8.4 billion, the highest annualised level since the data series began in 2011.

The BPFI and its members are acutely aware of the cost of living and interest rate pressures with which households currently have to contend. This is clear from the balanced approach that lenders have sought to take in the past 14 months in the pass through of rising rates. Although there has been much comment regarding savings and deposit rates, this must be looked at alongside the fact that banks in Ireland have been considerably slower than their European peers in passing on interest rates to mortgage holders. In fact, when comparing the pass through of rates across the 20 eurozone member states, Irish banks passed through the second-lowest increase in mortgage interest rates between May 2022 and July 2023. Although the ECB has raised interest rates by 4.5%, the average rate on new mortgages in Ireland has only risen by 1.24%, or less than one third of the full ECB increase. At the end of June 2023, the weighted average interest rate on all outstanding mortgage loans was 3.4% for banks, 2.8% for lending non-banks and 4.9% for non-lending non-banks. It should be noted that approximately 60% of all mortgage loans across the system are currently insulated from rate rises as they are on fixed rates.

Bank profitability is a key driver for capital strength, financial stability and resilient financial intermediation. Organic profits are the first line of defence against shocks to the economy. In addition, banks’ ability to raise capital when needed depends on their profitability. In the post EU banking union reforms, capital stacks, encompassing core EU-wide and local capital add-ons has fundamentally altered the traditional banking model in Europe. Without capital, there is no lending. Without lending, there is no investment for households, businesses and customers across the system.

It is true that bank profits will be higher this year than they were in the past, but banking, as is the case in the economy, is cyclical and, of course, profitability is also linked to economic activity and the demand for new lending, which is also impacted by monetary policy. The real test of profitability is the return on capital, something that has been a real challenge for the sector in Ireland and across the EU for the past decade.

Recent data from the Central Bank show that the number of private dwelling house mortgage accounts in arrears more than 90 days fell by 8.2% to June 2023, driven by a decline in long-term arrears. At the end of June 2023, approximately 30,000 accounts, or 4.1% of the total number of accounts, were in arrears of more than 90 days. This figure is largely unchanged since the first quarter of this year. There has been a slight yearly increase, of approximately 3,000 accounts, in the number of mortgages in arrears up to 90 days, or what we call pre-arrears. Notwithstanding the cost-of-living pressures and environment, these figures highlight the critical role of the macroprudential rules in establishing better lending and better borrowing across the Irish mortgage book in recent years.

In the past six months, BPFI, on behalf of the industry, has announced a series of new customer support measures. These include the recent agreement by lenders of minimum initial eligibility criteria to provide clear guidance and guidelines for customers of credit servicing firms who may wish to switch their mortgage.

In support of this, the three retail banks have put in place dedicated phone lines for these customers who wish to better understand and discuss their options for switching. While it is important to acknowledge that not all customers will be eligible to switch due to their individual circumstances, this development provides a pathway for customers by providing clarity on the question of switching. We have also recently put in place an industry-wide agreement between credit servicing firms and the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, on how to help customers in financial difficulty.

These measures have formed part of the industry’s Dealing With Debt campaign, which has been developed to highlight and inform customers of the broad range of supports that are available. Solutions can and will be found and it is critical that anyone who find themselves in difficulty engages with their lender as early as possible to find a solution, which they are entitled to look for according to the existing codes from the Central Bank, which are operated by all our members. Irish banks and non-banks have the widest set of solutions available to mortgage customers in difficulty across Europe and have been involved in restructuring more than 100,000 mortgages in the past ten years. They have highly experienced teams who work closely with customers who may find themselves in difficulty and are looking for a sustainable solution. The latest Central Bank figures show that as of June 2023 nearly 62,000 home mortgages were in a restructuring arrangement by the end of last year and more than 85% of these restructures are meeting the terms of their current agreements.

The committee has also asked us to address the matter of the defective blocks redress scheme. We, along with our members, have on several occasions met representatives of the Redress Focus Group for Banking and Insurance to discuss what the sector, and members individually, can do to assist homeowners. Over the summer months we submitted a request to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to establish a committee tasked with overseeing the implementation and roll-out of the defective block scheme. We are pleased to confirm this has been agreed to by the Minister and Government. Last week in our office, two members of the committee, Deputies Doherty and Conway-Walsh, attended a briefing for Oireachtas Members on the work we have done thus far. On the defective blocks scheme itself, during our engagement with the redress group, it has become abundantly clear there is a need for finance for some homeowners to commence remediation work on their properties prior to accessing the funding available under the scheme. As a result, BPFI and our member banks have submitted a proposal to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and we are engaging with it to find a solution that can work for affected homeowners.

The decision of Ulster Bank and KBC to withdraw from the Irish retail market clearly provided a real challenge to the sector in terms of account opening and closing and this is something we discussed last year at the committee. In the 18 months to the end of June 2023, the three remaining banks have opened 1.3 million current and deposit accounts, including almost 800,000 household current accounts and 105,000 business current accounts. Those on the front line of Irish retail banking, be they in call centres, branches or online, can take pride in having delivered for the customer in what was a mammoth undertaking. Two weeks ago, the Department of Finance's Consumer Sentiment Banking Survey August 2023 showed 82% of customers are overall satisfied with their financial provider. That is a figure BPFI members strive to improve on as they build competitive, sustainable businesses and support customers, the economy and our society.

I thank Mr. Hayes. We will move to members. Deputy O'Callaghan is indicating.

I thank the Chairman. I welcome the bank officials and thank them for their concise opening statements. It is fair to say they have all had a very profitable 2023 to date; that is certainly indicated by the figures for the first six months. I will begin with Mr. O'Grady. What does he think is the reason for Bank of Ireland's increased profitability in the first half of the year?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I am very happy to answer that question. There are a number of components that feed into our overall profitability for H1. In many ways, they reflect some of the strategic decisions we have taken in recent years, whether that is our investment in tech or our restructuring programme to lower costs, which have reduced by 16% compared with a number of years ago. The acquisition of the KBC portfolio and Davy Stockbrokers have improved performance as well. One of the largest factors in improved profitability has been the increase in interest rates. Banks need stable interest rates to generate capital. That capital from those profits is, of course, used to invest in a range of initiatives, including our future technology requirements and being able to support the building of new homes. They are factors. It is a combination of new customers, interest rates, successful acquisitions and a successful transformation programme in recent years.

I thank Mr. O'Grady. I put the same question to Dr. Hunt. AIB's profits were also especially high for the first six months. Is that partially or significantly due to the increase in interest rates?

Dr. Colin Hunt

It is, along with other factors not dissimilar to what Mr. O'Grady has outlined. AIB now has 3.2 million customers. A few years ago we had 2.6 million. That is because of our success in attracting customers who have been migrating from Ulster Bank and KBC. We have attracted approximately 49% of the flow there. The total number of loans on our balance sheet is 14% higher than it was in 2020. Again, that is a reflection of our organic growth but also the acquisition of loans from the departing Ulster Bank. It is also a reflection, of course, of the strong economic backdrop out there. There is a very direct link between the performance of the economy and the performance of AIB Group. When the economy does, well, AIB does well. Of course, we are also benefiting from a normalisation of interest rates after a very long period when interest rates were negative.

Does Dr. Hunt think AIB's profits in the first six months of the year are exceptional? Does he expect them to go down if interest rates go down?

Dr. Colin Hunt

I described them as exceptional on our interim results day at the end of July. A like-for-like comparison between the first six months of last year and the same period last year is difficult because we had not seen any increases in interest rates, nor had we seen the migration of those loans from Ulster Bank and KBC. What we have said is it is likely our return on tangible equity, which is a key measure of our performance, will tip above 20% this year. Our medium-term target has been that that would be above 13% throughout the cycle. As recently as 2020, we lost €700 million. This is a business that is very cyclical. It does well when the economy does well and it does poorly when the economy does poorly. One of my driving motivations as CEO of AIB is to reduce the cyclical impact banks have traditionally had on the economy. We have to be there in bad times to be able to support our customers. The profitability we are generating now is building a capital base that will ensure when we have downturns - and there will be downturns in the future - the bank has the ability to absorb future losses and to support our customers through good times and bad.

I thank Dr. Hunt. Returning to Mr. O'Grady and Ms Russell, I want to address the events of 15 August, which was a difficult day for Bank of Ireland. That is the evening the bank had problems with its ATMs throughout the country. Has the bank identified the cause of that problem and solved it?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

"Yes" is the answer to that question. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we very much regret that event as well. Our objective was to ensure we returned services as quickly as we possibly could and, of course, that we implemented what we call hypercare measures to protect the customers who were impacted. Our overarching objective on the day was to ensure basic banking services could continue, which they did. I am referring to the ability for people to withdraw money from an ATM, transfer money online with their debit or credit card and transact at a point of sale. All those continued despite our online services having problems.

One of the unusual features of that evening was the presence of members of An Garda Síochána beside a number of ATMs. Had Bank of Ireland any role in asking gardaí to attend or was it something that was done on public order grounds? Does Mr. O'Grady know?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

We had no role in-----

Bank of Ireland did not ask the Garda to get involved at all.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

That is correct.

Bank of Ireland stated at the time that it would seek to identity everyone who took out money. Has the bank been able to make contact with all those persons who withdrew money from accounts?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

We know that in the provision of those basic banking services, a number of people went into what we would describe as unauthorised overdraft. Our overall objective is to ensure no customers suffer financial detriment as a consequence of the mistake we made. I will ask my colleague, Ms Russell, to offer more detail on that point.

Ms Susan Russell

Clearly in the midst of an incident, the priority is to ensure that we can provide support for our customers. What is important, as Mr. O'Grady outlined, is that we can continue to provide cash through ATMs and continue to provide card services for people who just need to do their day-to-day banking while we may be experiencing an incident. In this case, as Mr. O'Grady outlined, people were not able to check their balances. That was why some found themselves in unauthorised overdraft. We immediately set up a dedicated phone line for customers who may have been impacted. They could reach out and speak to us on the phone or through our branch network to ensure they had access to our services. In addition, we put in a 90-day fee-free overdraft to ensure that customers could regularise their accounts. We are now looking to put in a 90-day free loan for customers so they have the ability to put that in. We have contacted every customer by letter and are asking that they reach out to us so we can speak to them on a case-by-case basis.

Have most of them come back to the bank?

Ms Susan Russell

A significant number of customers have spoken to us.

What was the maximum amount of money withdrawn by an individual on the evening in question?

Ms Susan Russell

I do not have the individual numbers to hand. We operate are what are called stand-in-processing, STIP, limits. That is a standard industry limit that is in place to ensure we continue to provide cash and card services during any outage.

I will ask my next question of Dr. Henry, Mr. Kinsella and Ms Downey. It is about the significant increase in the cost of card processing, in particular for Visa debit cards. I do not know if any of our guests are qualified to talk about that issue. To whom should I address that question?

Ms Elaine Downey

I can take that question.

I thank Ms Downey. The reason I mention the issue is because I have been contacted by a constituent who has a business. He tells me that his business has seen a 130% increase in card processing costs since last October. He has said that in September 2022, the cost of card processing was €14,600. The increase happened in October and in November, the cost had risen to €34,000. He has been in touch with AIB, whose representatives have said that is a decision that has been made by Visa and that AIB cannot control it. Is that correct?

Ms Elaine Downey

It is correct. The fees the Deputy's constituent is talking about are the interchange fees. They are set by the card schemes and we have no control or influence over how they are set or to what levels they are set.

This could apply to every bank so I am not picking on AIB. Customers of a bank who have debit Visa cards can see the processing costs increase without their being notified by the bank. Is that correct?

Ms Elaine Downey

They would be advised by their acquirer rather than by the issuer of the card. In that case, they would have to be advised of the change to the costs. It is a matter for the card scheme. It is not just Visa, although in this case it was. It could be Visa or Mastercard.

Is it fair to say that the bank regards itself as not being a party to that increase in the cost of card processing?

Ms Elaine Downey

We do not set the rates. We have no act or part to play in that regard.

All that the constituent who brought this to my attention can do is to complain to the bank, which is AIB in this instance but it could be any other bank. Does the bank not see itself as having role and being a kind of gatekeeper in terms of customers' relationships with Visa, whose primary contractual relationship is with the bank?

Ms Elaine Downey

It would depend on who the acquirer is. Customers' complaints should be routed through the acquirer of their transactions, which will raise the issue with Visa.

Is AIB aware that there has been such an increase in debiting costs?

Ms Elaine Downey

We are aware of that. Our SMEs, in particular, have raised the issue with us. We directed them to their particular acquirer.

Am I correct to say that a rebate was provided for certain merchants? People involved in farming and agriculture have received a rebate. Is Ms Downey aware of that?

Ms Elaine Downey

I am aware of that but I am not aware of the level of it. Because of the significant level of complaints from customers, through their acquirers, the card scheme put a threshold limit in place that topped it out.

Is Mr. Hayes aware of that issue of the increase in card processing costs for users of Visa debit cards?

Mr. Brian Hayes

It has come up recently. It is something we can look at.

I would appreciate it if BPFI would consider the matter. It appears to be the case that customers who have looked for a rebate have been told that certain sectors of the Irish economy will have rebates considered. Good luck to them; I have no issue with that. However, other sectors are not being considered for a rebate. What is the reason for that dichotomy?

Mr. Brian Hayes

I do not know is the straight answer. We can take that away and look at it again.

I hope Mr. Crowley does not mind that I have been ignoring him.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is okay.

There has obviously been a transition with Ulster Bank and KBC. How has that gone?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It has been very good. The migration has completed. We migrated the last piece of the jigsaw in the third weekend of July. That was the Lombard Asset Finance business, which is now Permanent TSB Asset Finance. It consists of 18,000 customers. We had a strong presence at the National Ploughing Championships last week as we tried to support our customers who were there. It has gone well. We are more than happy to have the Ranelagh branch open in the Deputy's constituency.

Mr. Crowley is very knowledgeable about parochial politics.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is right.

What is the reason for Permanent TSB's profitability? Are interest rates the driving force behind that profitability?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

As Mr. O'Grady and Dr. Hunt mentioned, interest rates are an enormous driver in bank profitability. We have been through many years of flat or, indeed, negative rates, which have a drag on profitability. I would suggest that our profits are modest but they are profits, coming after a number of years of losses. There are three key drivers. One is the Ulster Bank acquisition. That represented a 40% increase in our mortgage book and was a significant driver. The interest rate environment means an element of our book has been priced up. Naturally, tracker mortgages have increased their returns after many years of low returns. They now represent 16% of our mortgage book. That is offset by the continued investment we are making in the business. I would suggest that our profits are modest, with respect.

I will conclude there. I want to say that there is another option available. The bank could look to have less profitability. I know that might not appeal to its shareholders, and the State is no longer a shareholder, but the bank could look to have less profitability. As a consequence of that we might find that mortgage holders, who are, we all recognise, under pressure, would not have to meet the increased interest charges that have been put upon them. That is something to reflect upon.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I will make two points in response. There are two features of the Irish system in terms of profitability that are unique compared with other eurozone countries. BPFI did a report with EY only a year and a half ago. Some 80% of income in the Irish model is interest rate income. The equivalent percentage in the eurozone is 54%. The income driven by fees in other banking sectors is far more substantial than it is here. It is inevitable in a circumstance of interest rate rises, as a consequence of the actions of the ECB, that profitability will grow in the Irish sector because we are more dependent on interest rate income.

The other unique characteristic of the Irish system is tracker mortgages, which are linked directly to the ECB position. There are no trackers in a great number of the other eurozone countries. Some 20% of the Irish book is composed of tracker mortgages. That drives profitability.

There is one other valid point that we need to reflect upon. When Ulster Bank and KBC left the market, they took €4.5 billion in capital out of this jurisdiction. They are now deploying it in other jurisdictions where they believe they can get a better return on equity and capital. It is critically important, therefore, that our banks are profitable because it is profitability that drives capital. Without capital, you cannot lend or invest. The capital component is critical not just in terms of preparing for loss absorption in bad times but also in generating new lending. Most people are not aware that the full effect of Ulster Bank and KBC leaving is a loss of €4.5 billion from our system.

That is why it is critically important that our banks are profitable on a sustainable basis. This year is a particularly profitable year but it is sustainability that is absolutely critical.

I thank our guests for being with us today. I will start with the defective blocks issue. I met the BPFI last May and we spoke of the need for engagement with the redress focus groups. I understand BPFI as a representative body and the banks have met a number of occasions, I believe four times, a very professional organisation representing affected homeowners. Mr. Hayes mentioned that he has gone to the Minister in relation to a funding proposal. My colleague and I had the opportunity to be briefed on that last week and we appreciate that. Has he had any engagement with the Minister or the Department at this point in time? Have there been any indications? He also mentioned the oversight committee, which is agreed in principle. I would like to clarify that homeowner representatives will be part of that oversight committee. When does Mr. Hayes envisage that happening?

My third point is a question directly for the banks. All three of the banks that are here before us are party to the proposal that is going forward. It is one part of the jigsaw but that is all it is. This is necessary as a result of the way the Department is dealing with the grants. There is a major problem in these affected counties because the Government has not provided 100% redress. As Mr. Crowley said exactly, this is a disaster. It is a human disaster and is a disaster for people's homes. Many of the homeowners are not going to be in a position to rebuild their homes. There are people who are of pension age and do not have access to the additional capital to fill the gap that is there. We are looking at a product at the minute that deals with the initial stages. There has to be a product that deals with the latter stages and the gap in funding. What is the appetite of each of the individual banks to support homeowners with regard to the gap funding that is required? My ambition is to get the Government to do 100% but we have to deal with the here and now as people are demolishing and trying to rebuild their homes.

We have had a person before this committee who is a constituent of mine. She talked about how she had to beg and borrow to help rebuild her home. Many of the witnesses may have met her. She is a member of one of the groups. She talked about having to borrow from a credit union at a high interest rate of 8%. The cost of that is huge when borrowing large sums of money. Credit unions are brilliant but 8% for a €50,000 loan is not an appropriate financing arrangement. She has had to borrow from parents and others and is still wondering where the gap will be found. The banks need to step up more in relation to this. What is the appetite to go further than the proposal we currently have with regard to gap funding?

Mr. Brian Hayes

On the questions to me, we are meeting the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage this week. We submitted a proposal last week and we briefed Deputies Doherty and Conway-Walsh on that. We had a discussion with the Department over the summer so that it is aware of the proposal coming forward. I suspect it will need involvement from the Department of Finance on this, largely because our ambition is to create a product that can get over the first problem. The first problem is when someone has an engineer's report, the outcome of which is that they will be getting €350,000 from the State for remediation, but they have no money to get a developer or a builder or to buy supplies and they are of an age where they cannot do it. We recognise that the number one issue is around an interim funding proposal.

Our suggestion to the Department, broadly, from the three banks that have put this proposal through BPFI, is that we can provide maybe 10% or 15% of the overall grant upfront. The current legislation does not allow for that grant money to be paid upfront but we would do that on the basis that we will get the money back once the initial tranche is made from the housing authority. The reason we have done it that way is that were we to produce lending on this ,a lot of the people would not get the loans. They would not because we are governed by the consumer credit directive, which means we would have to do a full assessment of creditworthiness, including in respect of consumer protection code, CPC, and European Banking Authority, EBA, loan origination guidelines. A lot of these people would not get loans on that basis. We could get over that if we got this product agreed between the Government and ourselves. That is why we are looking for the commitment or the guarantee that we can get the 10% or 15% back.

On the question of the oversight committee, which was our suggestion put by the group in Donegal, we have a lot of knowledge of this because the BPFI was involved in the Priory Hall work. I was very struck by the comments made by the deputy governor at the committee last week were she correctly said that this is a much bigger problem and is a unique problem and we need everyone around the table. We need the homeowners, the representative groups, ourselves, the insurance industry, the construction industry, the Government and local authorities. We need everyone around the table. This is going to take a long time and we have got to get this right.

The banks can speak on the other issue but I have heard some people ask about the gap in funding and if there could be another product. The dilemma for us is that while we have certain security on existing loans, there are quite a number of people - we think more than 40% - whose loans are already paid off. There is no security. It would be fundamentally unfair if one category had an existing loan and another category did not. Banks will have to have regard to trying to make up that gap because I am hearing that with the first scheme there are significant gaps.

This is my last comment. I spoke to a woman in County Donegal a few weeks ago who was completing her house under the first scheme. She made the point that on putting a roof on, she was initially quoted €32,000. I think I give this figure last week in a briefing. She knows something about development and her husband know something about development. There were two other quotes of somewhere between €12,000 and €14,000. My concern is that public money, which is going in to try to get these people out of an appalling situation, will be scammed by a lot of people in the building sector not charging people correctly. We have to work on this together. It is more than just the banks. The Deputy has very honestly said in the past that he recognises that we are not liable for this but we have a relationship with customers and we are determined to work through this step by step. It seems to me that the number one priority is to give guidance and support to people in the construction sector in order that when people get money, they spend that money in the appropriate way to make sure they get the most they can for the development and for the public funds that will go into this.

I ask the individual banks to comment on the appetite for gap funding or products of that nature.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I am happy to offer a view. First, there is a deep sense of frustration and pain for our customers who have experienced this issue. The Deputy is reflecting that well. Our first objective is on the basis that there is an enhanced remediation scheme that is designed to cover up to 100% plus ancillary costs. That is the most effective solution and therefore the banks can help with that by offering early funding, whether that is bridging finance along the lines of the proposal Mr. Hayes has set out or otherwise. We can do more. For whatever reason, whether it is due to mica or something else, if there are customers experiencing financial difficulty we are there to help them and to work with them. We take everything on a case-by-case basis. I do not think I can give the Deputy an overarching commitment in totality but we will work with customers in difficulty. If someone is not familiar with interacting with banking, it can be challenging for a customer. We will make it easy for customers who are experiencing difficulties to make contact. We have colleagues who are being trained to work specifically with this issue. We have a vulnerable customers unit, which is there to help as well.

I presume the other banks are going to say a similar thing. Unless there is something different there or unless one of them is talking about developing a product-----

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Just to add to that, I would note the numbers we have. I have taken a personal interest in this. Indeed, the most recent "Prime Time" piece was extremely powerful on the difficulties certain people are facing in that respect. The numbers that have declared are small.

Our numbers, against, for instance, our exposure to customers on the Inishowen Peninsula, the number of customers who have told us they have an issue, is very small. I appreciate that each one of those customers has a difficulty in different circumstances based on age, profile, income, etc., but we need to encourage customers to come forward and disclose that they have a mica issue. We have provided forbearance to customers in this space but, while we have done so, some have not taken it up, maybe on the basis of awaiting some better deal to come. I understand why that is the case, but they also continue to support their mortgages, which obviously puts them in more difficulty in that respect.

There are, therefore, a range of different points to be dealt with. The Deputy has raised the fact that many people do not even have a mortgage at all. They have a self-build that they funded themselves and do not have a mortgage, and, therefore, do not have a connection with a bank at all. There is a wide variety of potential issues here, but the first thing is that all customers of all banks should be encouraged, including in our case, where the numbers are small, to come forward and engage with us because we want to try to help. We are restricted by various rules and regulations, but there is clearly a desire on our behalf to help and, if something comes out of that, to help more older customers. Let us try to see if we can put something together, but at the moment that has not come into play. The credit unions also have a part to play in that sense. We would like customers to come and tell us they have an issue. At the moment, the numbers are quite small.

Before Dr. Hunt comes in, I commend the fact that the banks have taken the right approach in coming together. The numbers are small because we are at the start of this. There are thousands of households whose houses have to be demolished. That is the unfortunate, brutal reality of this. Only a few hundred have been approved in respect of the scheme, and there are other challenges now because it has moved to the second scheme and so on.

We do not have 100% redress. It may be called that, but these families and everybody else will say there is a shortfall there. As for the approach the banks took, not waiting for individual customers but recognising that there is a problem here in respect of the initial stage, I ask them to take the same approach to the gap funding. The political system is the best place to resolve this. It should be a proper 100% scheme, but in the meantime there are people who are not even thinking about doing this because they just cannot do it. People can do the maths very quickly on their phone or a calculator and figure out how much they would get from the grant, but this is not covered and that is not covered. They could be short €45,000, and what are they to do? It is shutters down, head in the sand, and they cannot do anything because there is no way for them to get that money.

What I am asking for is a bit of imagination and collaboration, not on an individual but on a sector-wide basis, to look at a product that can be provided to these individuals, recognising that they are a completely different cohort. I do not blame the banks. It was not them but light-touch regulation that resulted in this. The banks support communities at different points. The banks stepped up. Some of the banks that are present put their hands in their pockets and gave money to the Creeslough fund. They support communities in respect of sponsorship, charities, sports organisations and so on. This is a social catastrophe that is happening in many of our regions. I ask the witnesses to look at a product that would help those at the other end because there is an issue there. I acknowledge what they have done in the first part.

Does Dr. Hunt wish to add anything?

Dr. Colin Hunt

Just the numbers in respect of customers contact volumes. We have put resources in place and opened communication channels to allow our customers who find themselves in this deeply distressing situation to contact us. To date, we have had 66 customers contact us. Based on our own estimates, taking account not only of what was AIB Group business but also of the migrating customers coming from Ulster Bank, we believe that approximately 3,000 customers have been impacted by this catastrophic issue, as the Deputy described it. We are in only the very early stages of identifying the actual customers who are really badly impacted by this.

Mr. Tom Kinsella

The Deputy used the word "communities", and that is absolutely right. We have ten branches across AIB and the EBS in the Donegal region. We have 200-plus colleagues up there. Some of them and their friends are affected by this. He asked about our appetite to help our customers. We are in this for the long term. We will not leave a customer hanging out there. Our approach with the BPFI and taking a collective approach is absolutely right.

I will move on to other issues. I am sure we will revisit this collectively and individually in the time ahead.

I want to challenge Mr. Hayes on something he said. I expect that he will accept that the banks were slow in that their pass through rate in respect of deposits are way lower than the European average, which means that people who have money on savings are not getting the reward compared with European banks. He made the point in his opening statement that Irish banks passed through the second lowest increase in mortgage interest rates between May 2022 and July 2023. I just want to tease that out with him. He rightly said that the interest rate on all outstanding mortgages is 3.4% for banks at this point in time. I think Eurostat gives the figure as 3.45%, to go to the second percentage point, but the Eurostat data bank also show that in May 2022 that rate was 2.47%. Does Mr. Hayes accept that those figures are where we are at? On outstanding Irish mortgages, the average interest rate increased from May last year to July of this year from 2.47% to 3.45%, which is a 0.98% increase. Does Mr. Hayes accept that is a fact?

Mr. Brian Hayes

I will bring Dr. Ugur in in a moment but I will make just one point first. We accept that there has been a move since then, of course, but over the period in question, the second lowest pass through rate is still the position, notwithstanding the increase that has occurred since then.

Dr. Ali Ugur

I think the Deputy has the charts. There is an appendix. It is the second lowest between May 2022 and July 2023, and those data come directly from the ECB. I actually prepared those charts. What we do is take the rates in May in all jurisdictions. There is an EU average there. There is a eurozone average there as well. We take the averages from July data from the ECB data. I am not aware of Eurostat data relating to just interest rates, but those data are from the ECB. Then we take a gap. We subtract one number from the others and see how much the rates have gone up during that period. Then we rank them from highest to lowest.

Yes, but the interest rate on all outstanding mortgages is the data Dr. Ugur is providing. This can be sliced in a number of ways. If we look at, for example-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

This is new mortgages.

Yes, but that is not what Mr. Hayes said. New mortgages are a small proportion of the overall mortgage market. The comments, which are running on RTÉ today, are that banks here passed through the second lowest increase in mortgage interest rates between May 2022 and July 2023. I want to dig into that because that is not accurate. It is actually-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

No, the number Mr. Hayes quoted is accurate because that is from the Central Bank data.

But is that new mortgages or all except-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

The numbers are for outstanding mortgages. That is from the Central Bank's June publication. It does a separate calculation. It is a special box. It publishes the data monthly - the Deputy probably follows that - and I think the latest one was in June. It did a special one in a box where it separated out banks, non-banks, lending non-banks and non-lending non-banks. The numbers are, therefore, for outstanding mortgages and they give the total amounts, that is, the total number of mortgages there.

So on all mortgages the average interest rate is 3.45%-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

As of June.

Dr. Ali Ugur

June.

Okay, and last May, which is the reference period Dr. Ugur used, the average interest rate was 2.47%. Does he accept that those figures are accurate?

Dr. Ali Ugur

The two comparisons are not valid. What Mr. Hayes talked about was the outstanding mortgages that are provided by the CBI. It was a special one-off analysis. The numbers I am using are for new mortgages. We do not have the numbers for last May for outstanding mortgages, to be clear.

Okay, so if we go into the ECB data bank and look at outstanding mortgages-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

That would be for new mortgages. The ECB does not have an outstanding mortgages figure.

Okay, so when Dr. Ugur gives the reference point from May 2022 to July 2023, what-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

That would be for new mortgages.

Only for new mortgages.

Dr. Ali Ugur

Only for new mortgages.

That is the point. That is not what is stated in the opening statement. It is a small word, "new", but new mortgages are a small cohort of the overall mortgage market. We can look at the Central Bank's paper, which actually looked at the pass through of mortgage interest rates in terms of our European peers.

Dr. Ugur will accept that far from the impression that is being presented here, what they say is that for new mortgage rates the pass through has been softer, which means not as strong. It is actually the same for all outstanding mortgages.

Dr. Ali Ugur

It is not the same if the Deputy looks at the pass through. Again, that is the specificity of the -----

I am sorry; the Central Bank of Ireland is saying this. It is on page 9 of the Central Bank's paper. Does Dr. Ugur accept this?

Dr. Ali Ugur

It is not saying the same; it is saying there are similar trends.

So if we use the ECB databank that gives us the percentage points, that will show that from May last year to July this year, there was a 0.98% increase in outstanding mortgage pass through rates in this State. It was a 0.66% increase throughout the eurozone.

Dr. Ali Ugur

I am not aware of the rates that are published by the ECB on outstanding mortgages. The data I have is for new mortgages. I will need to check that. However, I am not aware of that because the Central Bank had to do a separate analysis in a separate box.

Does Dr. Ugur accept that Ireland does not have the second-lowest pass through for all outstanding mortgages?

Dr. Ali Ugur

I do not have the comparable data. I cannot compare with the EU.

Does Dr. Ugur accept what the Central Bank stated?

Dr. Ali Ugur

I am sure it has its discussion paper. I have read the discussion paper.

We are not going to mince words but Dr. Ugur is the chief economist for the BPFI and he is telling me that he does not know that the reality is that Ireland is not the second-lowest pass through for outstanding mortgages. That is simply a fact. The fact that he will not acknowledge that-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

No, because I do not have the comparable data from the ECB on outstanding mortgages. I have the data from the Central Bank. The only comparable data we have is for new mortgages. Those charts were produced using those data for new mortgages because I do not have comparable data on the outstanding mortgages from the ECB. If the Deputy has that, I will be happy to look at it.

We will come back to this. However, Dr. Ugur acknowledges that the claim here relates new mortgages. Is that correct?

Dr. Ali Ugur

Yes indeed, the data is for new mortgages-----

New mortgages, which is a small-----

Dr. Ali Ugur

-----but what Mr. Hayes said was for outstanding mortgages and that data is correct as well.

So now we are back at the same square. Dr. Ugur is saying he does not have the data for outstanding mortgages, yet he is willing to say that the claim is correct. He is, therefore, saying that the claim that we have the second-lowest increase in mortgage interest rates between May 2022 and July 2023 is correct for outstanding mortgages.

Dr. Ali Ugur

No, the sentence is for new mortgages. Mr. Hayes further emphasised that for outstanding mortgages there was a different set of data.

It does not say "new mortgages" in the statement.

Dr. Ali Ugur

Perhaps that is our mistake. We will have to correct that.

That is what I was trying to get at because it is a completely different message that is being sent in all of that. If Dr. Ugur does not have the data for outstanding mortgages, that is fine. We can revisit that.

There is one other issue, which relates to the profitability of the banks. Mr. Hayes mentioned the importance of profitability in the banks and increasing the capital. We all recognise that. The profit has been quite substantial but it is not because of innovation. One of the witnesses mentioned that earlier. It is the high interest rate environment that is really driving this increase in profit where we see profits at AIB going from €1.1 billion to €2.5 billion, at Bank of Ireland from €1.5 billion to €2.4 billion and Permanent TSB from €114 million to €203 million. We have done the calculations. If the ECB had not increased rates as it has, the profitability of the banks would have been down by approximately €3 billion, if they were still on the old rates of -0.5%. In light of the profitability the banks now have, the fact is that their net interest margin is far above that of their European competitors. This is what feeds into the sense that customers are getting a raw deal. AIB’s net interest margin has gone from 1.75% to 2.87%. The average in Europe is 1.48%, which is lower than where AIB stood throughout all of last year. Bank of Ireland’s is going go up to 2.94%. Permanent TSB’s is going to go up to 2.3%. We want to find out why there are bumper profits. It is because the net interest margin is increasing. That is a factor of the fact that customers are not getting a fair deal, compared with those who bank with European competitors. On the issue of fairness and the availability now given the banks’ profitability, will that be addressed?

Mr. Brian Hayes

In regard to the figures the Deputy used, the figures we have for the net interest margin are from March. The EU average was 1.48%; we were at 1.81%. A lot of that goes back to what I said earlier in reply to Deputy O'Callaghan, about the way in which income is drilled from the Irish banks in terms of the fact that 80% of their income comes from interest rate income. In other parts of the eurozone, it is much more dependent on fees. However, this is one year. It is fair to say that, notwithstanding where we are in the cycle right now and the time it is going to take, we are certainly arriving at a new position in respect of the interest rates that will apply into the future.

There is a cost issue here as well. There is the cost of regulation, capital and labour, there are new costs that were not there ten years for anti-money laundering, AML and all of those factors. There is a significant cost that has-----

The profits are going through the roof. Mr. Hayes mentioned a point in time in March, which is before a lot of the other interest rate increases. This is based on Davy's research. If any of the witnesses want to tell us what they expect the net interest margin to be in their banks, that is fine, but Davy has projected these figures. They are the ones I used. I should have referenced that. This means that the banks will continue to be super-profitable, even more profitable. Indeed, Davy states that in 2024, this will continue and they will be more profitable again. Unless they increase deposits or reduce some of the interest rates, these margins will get bigger and they will be double the European average.

Mr. Brian Hayes

We have had these discussions before on the capital side. I am not going back over them again. The fact is, we have come through ten years of dulled profitability. In two of those years, there was no profit at all. The fact is that there are significant new costs relating to AML and know your customer, KYC, requirements coming constantly from Europe that also feed into this. All our key banks are bigger and more profitable because they have had to purchase assets from the two exiting banks. Consequently, that is feeding into profitability as well. Profitability is cyclical and needs to be looked at over a number of years to determine where the banks stand.

The other point is the banks will pay, as I understand it, on both the levy and on corporate profits tax, in excess of €400 million, based on 2002 figures. The State itself will see additional taxes as a consequence of the improved profitability of the sector. Those funds are crucial for, as Dr. Hunt said, other points in the cycle that will be more challenging in terms of loss absorption. That has to be taken in the round, notwithstanding the improved profitability for this year.

I thank the witnesses for their statements. I wish to address the mortgage figures. In his opening statement, Mr. Hayes stated that first-time buyers' activity remains strong in the 12 months ending July 2023 and there were 30,000 first-time buyer mortgages approved that were valued at €8.4 million, which is the highest annualised level since the data series began in 2011. Is that the highest number of first-time mortgages or is it being driven by the ever-increasing housing crisis?

Mr. Brian Hayes

I believe it is the highest number of mortgage approvals.

Dr. Ali Ugur

That is the volume, not the value. It is the number of approvals.

Mr. Brian Hayes

It is particularly advanced this year for two reasons. The level of switching we saw last year was extraordinary, largely because people got in ahead of the ECB rate rise and fixed for a three- or five-year period. That drove a lot of the numbers last year. The majority of mortgage approvals now, on a monthly basis, are for first-time buyers. That continues to grow, notwithstanding the sluggish nature of mortgage approvals across other parts of the book.

In terms of the number of first-time buyers in quarter 2 of this year, compared with quarter 2 of last year, are interest rates starting to impact on people's ability to get mortgages?

Dr. Ali Ugur

No, we are not seeing the interest rate affecting it in any way because our approvals figure for July shows that the first-time buyers' segment was very strong. That accounts for nearly 62% of approvals. I have the numbers on the approvals from January to July for 2022 and 2023. It was roughly 3,000 home purchases. This is home purchases and combines both first-time buyers and other purchasers.

I do not have separate figures but-----

I am just talking about first-time buyers. I will tell Dr. Ugur why and the context of it.

Dr. Ali Ugur

Yes, please.

Reports in the media indicate that the number of deals done was down 17.4% and that there was a drop of 11.9% in the value corresponding with the second quarter in 2022. Is that correct?

Dr. Ali Ugur

They are probably the overall volumes and values.

Mr. Brian Hayes

They were mover-purchasers and first-time buyers.

Dr. Ali Ugur

That is probably the overall that is significantly negatively affected by the switching volumes going down. They are probably overall figures.

Is Dr. Ugur saying there is no drop whatsoever in the number of figures of first-time buyers and that the increasing interest rates are having no impact whatsoever on the number of mortgages being taken up?

Dr. Ali Ugur

In terms of the number of approvals and drawdowns, obviously drawdowns were from the second quarter but we have numbers of approvals for up to last July and we have not seen a decline. The numbers have actually increased by approximately 5% compared to the same period last year.

In terms of arrears, what provision have each of the banks made for bad debt this year as opposed to the bad debt provision that was made last year? Will Bank of Ireland start?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

The data that have emerged over the nine months of this year show that overall, mortgage arrears are performing quite well. The increase in arrears in this year compared to last year is relatively small so that is a positive sign. I could point to the affordability of mortgages and it also points to the successful operations of the macroprudential rules from the Central Bank of Ireland which put constraints around loan to income and loan to value-----

No, I am asking a very specific question here. In the banks' accounts, what specific provisions have they made this year compared to last year for bad debts?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I do not have the exact number to hand, but I will be very happy to provide it to the Deputy. This increase this year compared to last year is not material.

Is it not material that it has been doubled? I know it has increased substantially, in terms of bad debt-----

Mr. Myles O'Grady

It has increased substantially but in terms of the overall context of our loans provision charge-----

Why is that? Why has it increased by so much this year?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

It can be driven by a range of factors. There are regulatory rules requiring the level of provision to be held for a particular loan. It can be based on affordability assessments.

Did the regulations change from last year to this year?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

No, but the application of them did. When we look at house pricing impacts, even though a customer can be meeting all of their loan repayments quite successfully we may still be required to hold an increased loan provision. For example, this may happen if we believe there is a deterioration in GDP or a risk to house prices at the centre, regardless of what is happening for an individual customer.

That is what I am trying to get at. What are the drivers of making that assessment in terms of the risks? Obviously Bank of Ireland is making a determination that the risks are higher this year than they were last year in terms of the bad debt provision it needs to make. We have all of those drivers. What are the particular drivers? I think it is very important we have a view of them.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

The two biggest factors that will influence the level of loan loss provisions we will hold for the mortgage portfolio will be unemployment and house prices. Those two factors, when we put them into our central model, determine our overall charge.

Obviously unemployment can be taken out of it given that we are obviously in full unemployment and there is such demand for labour, etc. That would almost be removed.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

To some extent. Notwithstanding some of the positive economic forecasts out there, with regard to unemployment for example, we would take a downturn scenario. Even though employment is holding up quite well, we might make an assumption in our model to say that if employment worsens, it would impact our mortgage charge. We would capture that in our accounts even though the customer has not had an affordability issue.

That is what I am asking. What assumptions is the Bank of Ireland making? Is it making assumptions in terms of the impact of the higher interest rates?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

Yes.

Are assumptions being made in terms of house prices being at peak, and affordability for people?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

On affordability, when we write a mortgage for a new customer we are very careful to ensure we are happy they can afford to make full repayments on it. We stress-test that as well. For example, if inflation has a negative impact on their cost of living, do we think the customer can still afford the mortgage? That is part of the mortgage approval process. More generally, from a total mortgage loanbook perspective, the two biggest factors that would give rise to us holding a larger impairment loss would be downturn assumptions on unemployment and house prices.

Okay, a downturn in house prices. How many applications are being turned down by Bank of Ireland because of affordability? Is there an increase in the number of mortgage applications that are being turned away because the stress tests are being done based on higher interest rates?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I will ask my colleague Ms Russell to respond.

Ms Susan Russell

We are not seeing any reductions in applications. In fact we were seeing a 20% increase in mortgage applications overall. As the macroprudential rules have been in place now for a number of years, they have provided all of the banks with a certain amount of security in terms of affordability for our customers. Increasingly, we look of course at affordability but equally where a person is employed, and given a number of factors around-----

I take what Ms Russell is saying in terms of applications but how many are being turned down?

Ms Susan Russell

I do not have those exact figures in front of me, but I would be comfortable in saying that there is no significant increase.

Okay, but Ms Russell is making increased provision for bad debt. What are the other banks' provisions for bad debt? Maybe Permanent TSB could answer.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Our provision was €9 million in the first six months. We lent €1.5 billion in total in the first six months and €1.3 billion of that was in the mortgage space. Similar to Bank of Ireland, that is based on models which calculate what the expected loss on lending of that size would be, not only on new lending but across the whole book based on a forward-looking view of unemployment, which as was mentioned at the moment is-----

What is it for the total year compared to last year? I just want to get an idea.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Last year there was no charge. The charge has gone up slightly versus the first six months of last year.

Was no provision for bad debt made last year?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

If I go back a couple of years, members will know that during Covid-19 banks made significant provisions on their books, where we supported customers, and we still carry a number of those provisions because of the way the Covid-19 pandemic breaks worked out. The vast majority of customers went back to normal repayments. We were only supporting a small proportion of customers. Banks, in the main, carry some additional provisioning from that time which provides additional coverage on our book. Saying that, our models would show a slight increase in provisioning this year over last year, primarily due to house prices. That is the driver because house prices in some locations are levelling or reducing slightly. In Dublin, there has been some reduction in house prices and that would drive the dynamic model that would calculate the provision cover. In our case it was €9 million.

Is it not Mr. Crowley's expectation that people will fall into arrears and the banks will therefore have bad debts because of the impact of the higher interest rates?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Customers have been stress-tested as part of the application process. That has happened over recent years. It is arguable that the stress tests that happened as part of the application process have come through and that those rates are now present. If rates were to increase further, it may have a more detrimental impact but at this moment we are not seeing stress in the book.

Dr. Colin Hunt

In terms of provisioning, the expected credit loss provision a bank makes is the most scrutinised number entirely because it is an estimate. Every other number is a hard number. That is one that is generated by a number of things. It is generated by the actual credit experience; and by one's models in terms of how they expect the economy, house prices, unemployment, income growth, inflation and interest rates to progress over the next number of years.

That is all taken as a given. I just want to get the 2022 and 2023-----

Dr. Colin Hunt

I know, and the other thing on top is what we put in place and is called a post-model adjustment. We added it in the first six months of this year. I cannot recall the precise number but we added more because we take a forward-looking and conservative approach to provisioning. As and of today, this is something we are watching very closely. We are watching right the way across the loan book and looking for very early signs of distress so we can intervene proactively. We are just not seeing it. We put in a very extensive suite of early warning indicators in anticipation of a hard Brexit because we were concerned about how a hard Brexit would impact on our customers.

We have augmented that through COVID and through the Ukraine crisis. We now have a set of early warning indicators that are extraordinarily comprehensive and we are just not seeing the distress coming through.

Is Dr. Hunt not at all concerned that people cannot meet the hundreds of euro extra they have to pay every month for their mortgages? We know that on a yearly basis one person in five has an extra €5,600 to pay on their mortgages. That is not showing any signs whatsoever in the modelling.

Dr. Colin Hunt

I am concerned about the impact on our customers of higher interest rates. This is one of the reasons we have been restrained in the pass-through of higher interest rates.

Mr. Tom Kinsella

We should also note that 60% of our book is on fixed interest rates so they are insulated from the current price rises but the majority of them-----

That is very interesting but the witnesses talk about "pass-through", are they talking about the fixed ones as well?

Mr. Tom Kinsella

Yes, we are talking about everything. Of the current fixed base of our book, 60% of them have been insulated from any price rises over the last 12 months.

If there are 60% fixed, would that not distort the pass-through rates that are being given to us?

Dr. Ali Ugur

The pass-through is for new mortgages because if it is fixed it cannot change.

I just want to know about the figures that we are being given because sometimes it is very difficult to dissect the figures to see that the picture is accurate, particularly when we see higher interest rates being paid here than in the rest of the EU. I think we need to be frank and we need to have some kind of uniformity.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Regarding the one in five figure which the Deputy quoted, where the growth is an average €5,000 they are trackers. One fifth of the Irish book is the tracker book so they follow the ECB rate.

Exactly. I want to come to that in one minute regarding vulture funds and trackers. It would be useful for the committee to be provided with the bad debt provision over the mortgage book for the next year and compared to last year. As a committee we need to keep on top of where everything is with the Central Bank.

I want to move on to the 78,000 people who have had their mortgages transferred to vulture funds. They are paying exorbitant interest rates, some as high as 10%, as we teased out last week. Will Mr. Hayes confirm that approximately 22,000 of those mortgages were transferred without ever having been in arrears? One could take it as the 22,000 people being eligible for switching now. How many of those mortgages have been transferred back to the retail banks from the vulture funds? Perhaps each witness could speak about how many of those mortgages have been transferred back from the non-bank lenders. I want to try to get a picture of that.

Mr. Brian Hayes

There are about 80,000 mortgages in the credit servicing area, as the Deputy knows. Some 26,000 of them are in long-term arrears. Some 35,000 of them are in the middle of an alternative repayment arrangement, ARA. The figure of 22,000 came from substantial correspondence received by Deputy Doherty from the Central Bank, estimating that 22,000 were never non-performing as such. Of course there are reasons performing loans would go from banks to credit servicing firms. In the case of banks that leave the market, such as Bank of Scotland, the whole book is actually sold as performing or non-performing. We are working off the figure that was sent to Deputy Doherty. I think that figure was 22,027 in total. Our estimate, because we do not know the full composition of the 22,000, is that they are mainly tracker mortgages with a small outstanding balance. One could legitimately ask why someone who has a tracker mortgage in a credit servicing firm which has always been performing - at a rate of 6% or 6.5% now, or even more - would not want to move to fix with one of our three pillar banks, or indeed one of our three non-bank lenders, where they would get it at substantially less. That is a question for those people to answer. Maybe the balance is so small that they have chosen to remain with their tracker. I have heard people talk about their attachment to the tracker but there is no reason those people cannot switch. They could have switched before our recent announcement but we have not seen that happen. I would imagine that not all of the 22,000 are trackers. There could be others who were in an ARA but have come out of that and are in that book as well.

Dr. Ali Ugur

I would be concerned if the majority of those numbers are not trackers because it means that there are people who have never been in financial difficulty. They should have the option to switch and they had the option to do so. As Mr. Hayes outlined, there are these legacy Bank of Scotland and Danske Bank customers. I was one of them with a tracker marriage with Danske Bank for a while. Our estimate that the majority of them are tracker customers.

Mr. Brian Hayes

The bigger part of our announcement recently was not so much towards that group that could switch but towards that group of 35,000 who are in an ARA. They have stuck to the terms. There is a lot of misunderstanding about non-performing loans. The definition of a non-performing loan is one that has not been paid for 90 days. However, if a person comes to an ARA with a credit servicing firm and they stick to that arrangement and come out the other side of it, the loan is performing again. That is a really important message we need to send to the public. Just because a person has been in an ARA does not mean that at all stages in the future they can never switch. We have said that we are looking for a two-year clean history, full capital and interest. There are other business-as-usual requirements as well. The importance of the announcement we made on behalf of our lenders was that we are open to switching people as they get through their ARAs in circumstances where they stick to the agreement. I would point out that people are sticking to those payments in 85% of arrangements that have been entered into.

Are the criteria too strict? When we look at them, we see there are not many people who could meet the criteria. I do not have them in front of me but they talk about 12 months without a missed payment. If somebody who was switching from another bank missed a payment through no fault of their own, one of the banks could say that a payment has been missed, so that is it. The criteria for switching are so stringent that very few people would be able to pass them.

Dr. Ali Ugur

Perhaps the banks will know better than I do, but one missed monthly payment over a 12-month period would not constitute a major issue if it can be explained by the customer.

That is the problem. When people look at a website, they see what the criteria are and then they look at their credit history. The criteria state:

Customers must be repaying capital and interest on the full outstanding mortgage i.e. there is no split/warehoused element of the mortgage, and the mortgage is fully up to date.

The customers’ credit history, i.e. their Central Credit Register (CCR) record, must show a clean repayment track record without arrears for at least the past two years.

Customers must be able to demonstrate that they have sustainable income [obviously, that is part of what it is] which is adequate to repay the mortgage in full over the lifetime of the loan.

Customers must have a satisfactory bank account performance i.e. no unpaid items such as a direct debit or standing order and all the customers’ other loans/debts [a car loan, a student loan, or any of those] must be up to date.

The current Loan-to-value (LTV) of the mortgage must be less than 90%.

The circumstances that gave rise to any previous financial difficulty must have been resolved.

All of those requirements explain why people are not switching. They just make it impossible. There is also the question of asymmetrical information, where people do not have the-----

Mr. Brian Hayes

Many of these are very standard requirements. We have discussed this previously. If a person is not paying capital and interest, factually it is not a performing loan.

There must be confidence that if a loan goes back to a bank, people have the capacity to repay. We are not the rule makers; we are the rule takers. The rules on non-performing loans changed in 2016 in terms of guidance and in 2019 in terms of the calendar provisioning law, which was passed through this place and in other parts of the European Union. They make it very clear what we can and cannot take as non-performing loans. There was a situation-----

Someone may go to one of the banks to switch a mortgage and they had an unpaid item on a direct debit - for some reason, their direct debit did not go through, perhaps, or perhaps one of the banks' digital system fell down and their direct debit did not happen. Mistakes have been made in that regard, in which people's payments could not be made. If it was one of those things, would that not give the power to the banks to say someone has an unpaid item going back and therefore they are not eligible? This is what people are reading.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The rules set out are no different for a first-time buyer and someone switching who wants to change their home or someone switching from a credit servicing firm. There is an overlay on a missed debit for particular reasons. Naturally, it takes into account that if there was a continuous issue, an individual would not be able to meet their repayments. I appreciate that it is somewhat fearful but that said, it applies in the exact same way for a first-time buyer. Anybody who comes to a bank is under the same rules. The Deputy asked about numbers. Up to the end of June, we had 200 applications from credit servicing firms, about 100 in the second half of last year and about 100 in the first half of this year. I hope we will see an increase in that. We approved 75% of those applications, a higher approval rate than the first-time buyer approval rate in general, from application to approval. About 80% of those customers have already switched. Primarily, they came from Pepper and Mars Capital but Pepper is the-----

How many came back to Mr. Crowley's organisation?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I do not know. We do not trace whether they originated from us or not.

Mr. Brian Hayes

We gave a guarantee in the announcement that teams will be in place across banks to go through these issues with customers. Customers should ring the banks; the brokers also welcomed this initiative. We also said we will review this in a six-month period to see if we are making any impact. I do not think one missed payment would disqualify someone.

Has Mr. Hayes tried ringing a bank for anything? I suggest everybody here try ringing. I had a recent experience of ringing the bank in regard to credit card fraud and it was press this, press that, press the other. There is a digital divide. Mr. Hayes should dial the banks and see what he gets - everything but a human being. Everything is done to avoid speaking to another human being.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their information. Is it anticipated that house prices will remain high or ascending for the foreseeable future? The history of the financial crash tells us that when that happens, disaster also happens. I would like an answer to that before moving on. Who would like to deal with that?

Dr. Colin Hunt

We have had a very volatile housing market going back over many decades, as the Deputy knows. In the crash in 2008, 2009 and 2010, the average house price fell by more than 50%. It is that credit and performance history that has had such a large impact in terms of the quality of underwriting, the macroprudential rules and ensuring that the loans we make to our customers are repayable and financeable in a changing economic environment. At the moment, there is a situation in which there has been a very significant recovery in housing output from the lows in 2010 and 2011; I think about 2,000 units were built in the aftermath of the crash. This year, there will probably be north of 30,000 units built. That is short of the supply available. Due to the very strong demand, there is an underpinning of house prices despite the increase in borrowing costs. My suspicion is that there will be a more stable house price environment than in the past number of years because of the two countervailing impacts working on the price and dynamic, one being the higher cost of finance and the other very strong demand outstripping supply, which, of course, is a problem.

The demand was there all the time before and during the financial crash. Demand was never in question. This worries me. During that period, I put down parliamentary questions to ascertain the extent to which the economy was on a safe footing, etc. The responses I got, with the exception of one question, was, yes, of course it is. The responses were absolutely resolute. There was only one question that had the opposite answer and everybody decided to go batten down the hatches after that. To go back to something else-----

Dr. Colin Hunt

On that point, we built 97,500 new units in 2007 in an economy that probably needed about 35,000. There was massive overbuilding. An interesting point of reference is, I think it was in 2007, we built 97,500, as I said, in the Republic. In the entirety of the UK, house building that year was about 150,000. There was massive overbuilding at that point. I do not think anybody could accuse the construction industry of oversupplying the market at this juncture.

We will discuss that in a second. I am not so sure that it was not possible to predict, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, what the outcome was going to be. That point must be made. I agree with my colleague in relation to faulty blockwork and concrete, etc. I cannot understand why lending agencies did not take account of the fact that there were certain professional guarantees attendant on the use of materials from architects, engineers, the construction industry, insurance companies and local authorities, etc., in relation to the application of rules. In the past, it was not possible to get a loan for any amount of money for a building on which shortcuts were made or improper materials were utilised. There was an engineer in our local authority who insisted on cube and various tests on materials as they appeared on-site. There were rapid responses in all cases. Without notice, inspections were carried out. There was always something. Why did lending institutions not insist on something like that to protect their own interests? After all, if lending institutions are lending to the market, it is essential that the market is careful in what it does and its inputs. Is that not the case?

Mr. Brian Hayes

I presume that lending institutions followed the certification given at the time in the same way as for the final drawdown of loans through staged payments from a bank to a new build would require certification at all stages. The problem in this case was the certification around the actual construction that occurred. It is some historical problem that has landed, unfortunately, the way it has.

It is not that simple. I built my house during that period. The various procedures were adhered to and there was insurance cover during and after construction and in relation to the payment of the various stages, etc. There had to be strict compliance and a sign-off by the engineer in charge of the site. It was very strict and you did not get the cheque unless that happened. A lot of things happened afterwards that certainly did not carry any approval. I will come back to this at a later stage and will watch it carefully. There are still questions to be answered.

I would like to speak for a minute about the impaired mortgages that have been and are being sold on. I understand the reasons for them to be sold on. However, it appears to me that they are being sold on to be washed out and handed back to the market again. That is the summation of what is happening by an innocent bystander. Like everybody else on this side of the table, I have been involved in chasing people who had what were called impaired mortgages. We were trying to engage with the lending agencies, such as banks, building societies, etc., in the first instance, with the view to achieving something that was within the capacity of the borrower to manage and meet. At the same time, this process was to look forward to the end of the day when there might be a breakout of that cloud and the person would be able to pay a higher rate. I can assure the Cathaoirleach that I, and several others in this room including the Cathaoirleach's good self, followed every possible option that could be followed. We pursued every single possibility, such as warehousing of parts of a mortgage, payment and continued payment. This included continued payment all the time on the premise that this would save the customer in some way, shape or form. These were always rejected on the basis that it was not sustainable. Why was that the case? It was according to the criteria that were applied by the bank or banks as the case may be. That was easy for them to do, because in a three-card trick, if you have control of two of the boxes, the next one will follow.

At this stage, how many of the sold-off impaired mortgages have come back onto the market again? How many of them have been sold on to other financial entities? Did they transfer with a reduction for the purchaser? Has it happened in every case?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I am happy to offer the Deputy a perspective on Bank of Ireland's non-performing exposures. As the committee will know, it is part of the regulatory requirements to bring those customers who are non-performing back into a performing profile. That is really important. It is very important for the quality of the bank balance sheet. It allows us to lend to the economy as well. In relation to non-performing exposures for Bank of Ireland over the last number of years, in total in those transactions, we have done five transactions. For approximately 60% to 70% of those loans that have transferred across, the pricing remains under the control of Bank of Ireland. That is because it is a securitised transaction, rather than being a full sale. That means that those customers who have transferred are still able to avail of Bank of Ireland rates. The remaining figure, which is approximately one third, they were full loan sales. That gets us back to the discussion we had earlier regarding performing customers or customers who were previously in financial difficulty and are now back in good financial health. We very much welcome those customers coming back. Hence, the initiative that has been led by the Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI.

Would it be fair to say that in some cases the customer who was originally the holder of the mortgage has been disadvantaged in the sense that their loan has been sold on and it has been administered in some way, shape or form that they do not know about? They only know that the mortgage has gone from them and the property is gone in many cases as well. The property is already repossessed by one method or another. This has been revealed again and again as likely to happen to people who have been in difficulty with mortgages. We know all that.

What I am worried about is that there seems to be an urgency now about receivership. These financial services companies seem to be hell-bent on getting into receivership in order to get hold of the possibility of getting the tenant or borrower out and disposing of the property in some way that is suitable and acceptable, or handing it back to the original borrower now that it has been thrashed out in a different arena. What is happening in relation to that? For example, there are cases where a main breadwinner in a household will have gotten a severe heart attack or some other health issue and it was a life-altering situation. They may not be able to pay anything in that situation. How do the different banks view their situation? The financial servicing companies are not very sympathetic.

Mr. Brian Hayes

We have the actual facts in front of us. There was a total of 99 repossessions in 12 months up to June of this year. One third of those have been voluntary surrenders, rather than being court-ordered. Effectively, that means there have been 66 court orders.

I do not buy that one.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Well-----

I respect Mr. Hayes’s views, but I have to say that I do not buy that one and I will tell him why. They voluntarily surrendered. Why was that the case? It was because they were hustled. They were hustled day and night and were told about their obligations. They were told that what would happen eventually would be that the house would be repossessed. I have an example from only last week where a financial services company threatened the borrower with the acquisition taking place one way or another. They said, “Even after you die we will come back and get a hold of the house”. That is fine and we know how some people operate. I do not think that is funny at all.

Mr. Brian Hayes

It is the figures from the Central Bank of Ireland which are published. In most cases, as I understand it, in the case of voluntary surrenders, they are by agreement with the credit servicing firm. In some cases, they pay for people to rent for a period of time because it is actually easier to get a voluntary surrender than a full court order in most cases.

We have a significant problem with long-term arrears. It is not going away, notwithstanding the fact that significant progress has been made up to the last 12 months. As I said earlier, we have had an 8% reduction. However, those people are older, they have no capacity to repay and we have to find solutions. We have worked very closely with the Government on the mortgage to rent. This is an example of a good solution whereby someone can stay in their home. That home will then come into the stock of social homes. We have worked with the local authorities, Members of the Oireachtas and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to advance that. However, I accept that there is a problem around long-term arrears that we collectively have to resolve. There is a cohort of approximately 26,000 in total that will have to be resolved at some point.

That is correct in the sense that it is more beneficial to the lending institutions to resolve it than it is to the person who expects to get compassion or understanding as to how they might resolve the problem from their point of view.

Incidentally, I want to acknowledge that, following the crash, some banks were helpful and compassionate. Some banks engaged with the customers. Some banks engaged with the various public representatives who had forced them with the view to a resolution. It did not cost them anything. The public representatives do not charge a fee or anything like that, so it was therefore a free service. However, some banks did not do that. Some banks established a pugilistic attitude in the face of a critical crisis that affected the whole country. It was not as if that problem was not envisaged. It was obvious that it had been coming down the tracks for years. It had to happen, and the economy had overheated.

In relation to the issue of over-building and having too many houses, the big rush afterwards was to say that people should demolish the houses that were built. I never heard anything as ludicrous in my life, because it was known that the population of the country was going up all the time, so there had to be solutions.

I will make my last point because I do not want to hog the floor. Other speakers want to intervene as well. In the case of solutions being achieved between a lender and a customer, which may have come about as a result of a relationship breaking up or whatever the case may be, there have been cases where a solution was found to facilitate one of the partners. Then, we get back into the old days of "jointly" and "separately" and all that kind of thing. This would happen with one of the partners, without the knowledge of the other, so that the remaining person on the mortgage would then discover that they owed the whole debt. That would happen suddenly when it had not been envisaged before at all. That is not uncommon; it has happened several times. They are stuck with it. That person - and it happens to both men and women - will now have to deal with the problem of the future.

They will not get a loan from the lending institution they were with before, and they will not get a loan from any other lending institution because their credit rating is gone and they have to wait four or five years or whatever still remains at a time when house prices are going up at the same time, so that they cannot catch up. The whole market has gone out of their reach and is going further and further away.

If possible, I would like to see the banks take the following steps. A useful submission has been made about mica and the various other issues that have affected the construction sector. That is as it should be. It would be very important to bring in the other people I mentioned with a view to putting a package together to bridge the gap between the Government's proposals and the requirements at the present time. I think it is attainable and it could easily be done.

The other question I would like an answer to is in relation to first-time buyers. People can be first-time buyers for various reasons. For example, they could be in a new relationship. As an entity, for the two people seeking a mortgage or loan, it can be their first time in that context. In various ways they constitute an entity similar to a first-time buyer. I put the question to all of the banks again about the ordinary first-time buyer that we still have a problem with. What methods or items are in the field now to cater for people on the average wage - those earning between €40,000 and €50,000? It could be a couple who have too high an income to qualify for a local authority loan and too low an income to qualify for a loan because of the escalating house prices. What hope can we give them now?

Mr. Brian Hayes

I will make two quick responses. The first home scheme is an initiative of the Irish Government but half of the equity that went in for the equity part of the product has come from the Irish banking sector. That is something that has already made a difference to at least 600 people who have purchased their home and another 2,500 who have got agreement to proceed with the first home scheme. That is something the Irish banks have produced in terms of putting equity into that scheme in partnership with the Government. We also have a help-to-buy scheme, which is very productive in terms of helping first-time buyers. There are a lot of schemes.

I would like to take an opportunity to say this in response to one of Deputy Durkan's points. Traditionally, Banking and Payments Federation Ireland and our banking members have had a long-standing agreement with MABS on early engagement and a range of other supports we put in place. We have now managed to get the credit servicing firms to be part of that agreement. What does that mean? It means that if a constituent has a difficulty, who probably wants to talk to MABS more than to a credit servicing firm or a bank, as he or she might be more confident with that, and who reaches out to MABS, we now have a dedicated person in each of the firms to deal with MABS on the credit servicing side and we also have biweekly meetings for MABS and the firm and an escalated decision on the credit decisions. Some of the frustrations MABS has talked about to us as a sector are because it cannot get an early credit decision from some of the firms.

We hope those three things will make a difference to some of the cases where people are more confident to go to MABS than they are to a lender, be it a credit servicing firm or a bank. We will wait and see if we can make further progress on that.

There are other questions that follow on from that but I will visit them again.

I apologise for not being here earlier as I was at another meeting, but I have read the opening statements. I have two or three questions I would like to put in general.

We are all very aware of climate change and a lot of people are retrofitting or buying an electric car. What are the banks doing to address this whole issue? People are looking for low-interest loans because the costs involved can be quite prohibitive to put in solar panels. Some people cannot afford to go the whole way.

There were bank collapses in America in recent months with Silicon Bank and First Republic. In Switzerland, there were banks that collapsed. What are banks in Ireland doing to make themselves safe? We have a limited number of banks here in Ireland now and people need to have faith in the banking system. I would like to know what the banks are doing in that regard because we do not want to end up in the same situation.

One issue that was raised with me recently by a small-time builder is that he finds it very hard to get access to finance. He has a number of accounts with different banks. I have a general question in that regard. People are crying out to buy houses, but it is a big issue if a builder cannot get access to finance. Is anything being done to address that?

I know I raised this with the banks before but some businesses raised with me that following the collapse of Ulster Bank and KBC, they moved to other banks and it took about 12 months before they were able to access finance because they did not have a steady accounting system with the banks they moved to. Is that still the case?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I am very happy to answer those questions. If I could, as a follow-on to the previous question, in regard to the first home scheme, which is proving to be a success, Bank of Ireland has approved just under 2,000 first home scheme mortgages this year. That shows it is working and is attractive to customers.

In response to Senator Byrne's question on climate change, earlier this year we set out our strategy for the next three years at Bank of Ireland. It is very important to us that we demonstrate we have what I would describe as practical and meaningful interventions that make a difference. We are willing to be judged on that as well. For example, at the end of last year our sustainability finance was at €8.2 billion. It had grown to €9.7 billion by June of this year. We have committed ourselves to grow that to €15 billion by 2025 and to €30 billion by 2030. We are happy to be judged on that. At this point, it is made up of about two thirds of green mortgages. That is essentially where we offer a discount rate if the energy rating is sufficiently high. The majority of our mortgage lending this year has been on green mortgages, so again, that is proving to be successful.

We are also working with businesses on decarbonising. In particular we have partnerships with Kerry Group and with Musgrave. We work with those businesses to offer lending facilities that reduce their carbon footprint. We take our commitment very seriously. We have also signed up for science-based targets, so we know many commentators around the world will be watching what we do as well and will be tracking our progress.

In regard to the very serious issues earlier this year with Credit Suisse and others, the good news is Irish banks, the banking sector and the eurozone generally are far more resilient and stronger than when we think back to the previous financial crisis. As an example, banks in Ireland are typically holding about three times more capital now than they did, let us say, 15 years ago. There is also a very strong funding profile. For example, for Bank of Ireland, for every €1 of loans we have out there, we have €1.25 in deposits, which means our funding base is very stable.

In response to the question about builders who want to develop, I have had a number of builders come to me over the past ten months with a similar story. My message is that we are committed to supporting home building in Ireland. I referenced earlier that we are supporting the development of 18,000 units across 200 sites. We have increased our committed funding from €1 billion to €1.75 billion, so we are very much focused on it. In some ways, if we want to grow the mortgage market, which we do, we have to also support builders who are building homes. That is a commitment. Each loan has to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, but there is a strong desire for us to grow that part of our balance sheet as well.

Mr. Patrick Farrell

From a sustainability point of view, it is a huge focus for the organisation. To give the Senator a sense of that, similar to what Mr. O'Grady said, the majority of our mortgage lending now is green lending. Again, that is based on a discount to the customer to encourage customers to go for A1 to B3 rated homes. It is trying to encourage growth in that sector.

The other thing we are doing is working very closely with the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI. There are a number of schemes, including the future growth loan scheme which, again, is working with companies and helping them to transition their businesses over time. We are talking to our customers about how we can help and advise them and actually fund that transition over a period.

We are also working with the SBCI on a retrofit scheme that is due to come out next year. That will help customers, whether it is for heat pumps, solar panels or insulation. It is to retrofit existing homes as well as new homes that are being built. On the other side, we have our consumer lending, a large portion of which is now focused on helping customers transition from diesel cars to electric or hybrid vehicles. Some people are making that transition as well.

The Senator also mentioned business customers who come over and may be unable to get a loan for a period. During the transfer of customers from Ulster Bank, we made the decision that we would take businesses' history into account. Once we could see what their history with their previous bank was, they were then able to access finance immediately from there. We continue to do that practice.

Dr. Colin Hunt

With regard to AIB, the sustainability agenda is core to our mission. This is the biggest challenge facing the world at the moment. However, it is also the biggest opportunity for banking, ironically. We approach it in three ways. We look at it as a business in our own right. We have made a commitment to be carbon neutral in our own operations by 2030. We are making very solid progress towards meeting that target. We are very excited about the imminent electrisation of our two solar plants in County Wexford. Who would have thought that the bulk of the AIB estate was going to be powered by solar plants in County Wexford? That is an emerging reality.

We have also made a commitment that 70% of all our new lending would be green or transitional in nature by 2030. We have changed our third-party supplier code to encourage suppliers to come on the same low-carbon transition that we have embarked on ourselves. We have an array of products in this area. We have a €10 billion climate action fund, which will be fully deployed at the end of this year. We have personal loans, car loans and mortgages which are designed to assist our customers - business and personal - as they move along their transition to a lower carbon future.

We regard ourselves as a thought leader and action leader in this space. Do not take my word for it, however. There are any number of international independent rating agencies that see AIB in the leadership cohort as we rush to try to preserve the precious planet on which we all live.

With regard to keeping the bank safe, the banking system in this country is at a point diametrically opposite to where it was 15 or 16 years ago. In our case, our core equity tier 1 capital was 15.3% in 2007. It is currently 15.7%, so three times more capital in real terms. In risk adjusted terms, however, it is probably a substantially greater amount in cash terms than we had available to us at that point in time. If we go back to 2007, our loan-to-deposit ratio was 144%. We were reliant on wholesale funding for approximately one third of all the lending activity in which we engaged. Today, that figure is in the low 60s. Thankfully, after many years of hard work, we find ourselves at a point where the Irish banking system, and AIB as a key player in that system, is in the strongest position it has probably ever been in. That is the best way we can withstand the sort of incidents we saw in the United States earlier this year and also in Switzerland.

We are very committed to new building. It is good for us in terms of our business relationships but it is also in terms of our personal customer relationships because it is about providing potential mortgage borrowers with the homes for which they are all crying out.

With regard to credit facilities from Ulster Bank, we obviously bought a portfolio of in excess of €3 billion - I think it was €3.3 billion - of corporate and commercial loans from Ulster Bank. There have been no issues in relation to the continuity of credit facilities as a consequence of ownership there changing to AIB.

Mr. Brian Hayes

The market volatility to which the Senator referred had an impact for funding costs across the market, notwithstanding that the collapses were seen in Credit Suisse. It was not so much the case in Credit Suisse as it was then bought over but it certainly was in the American case. The differences are really around the level of capital ratios in the European banking sector.

A top-tier single supervisory mechanism, SSM, regulated bank today has to have a balance sheet of at least €30 billion. The equivalent in the United States is about €200 billion. The case of SVB was cited, and that is an important one. It was very exposed to venture capital and tech, which have seen a significant downturn in recent times. However, it also had a small number of large uninsured depositors, whereas the typical Irish bank would have a large number of small depositors. The cases are, therefore, very different.

The other two big fundamental changes are with capital but also the supervisory system. Our banks have our local regulator, the Central Bank of Ireland, but we have a significant presence of the single supervisory mechanism, the European Central bank, ECB. Typically, in any month, what we call the joint supervisory team, JST, would be across all our banks. The JST is an international team of people who report directly to the Central Bank of Ireland and Frankfurt. The capital requirements Dr. Hunt mentioned, the liquidity covered ratio requirements and the supervisory requirements are a different world from what was in place eight or nine years ago. There is a fair degree of satisfaction at one level that, given the turbulence to which the Senator referred in the first quarter or two quarters of this year, broadly speaking, banking in the eurozone system has come through that. People have to be vigilant, however. There are significant risks.

Interest rate risk is one such risk. We have gone from a ten-year period of lower for longer rates to a very significant spike in ECB rates. That has intended and unintended consequences not just for the economy but also for funding requirements. We have to be vigilant. If the Senator speaks to any of the European regulators right now, their issue is around risk reduction, better governance models, stress testing the book and making sure it is stress tested from the perspective of a worst-case scenario. The rules of the game have changed from what they were eight or nine years ago. Insofar as the volatility in the first quarter of this year is concerned, we seem to have come through that relatively okay.

I thank the witnesses and apologise for leaving. I have to speak in the Seanad Chamber.

How many banks does the BPFI represent?

Mr. Brian Hayes

We have the three pillar banks, which are our main shareholders, and 32 international banks, made up of three SSM-regulated banks and more than 20 less significant institutions, or LSIs, as we call them. We then have branches, which are international banks that are based here.

The figure is 32.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Yes.

In terms of the non-banks Mr Hayes mentioned, are the vulture funds part of the BPFI?

Mr. Brian Hayes

Yes, they are. There are a total of seven credit servicing firms. Then we have non-bank lenders, so Avant, Dilosk and Finance Ireland are also members.

The BPFI has vulture funds as members.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Credit servicing firms, yes.

Yes, vulture funds. What is Mr. Hayes's view on the fact that these vulture funds, particularly the ones that hold the biggest number of mortgages, refuse to attend an Oireachtas committee?

As a former parliamentarian and Minister of State, I am sure Mr. Hayes has a view on that.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I have said publicly that I wish they would do so but I cannot force anyone to come before the committee. Like the Governor and deputy governor of the Central Bank, who gave the committee evidence last week that they were at the same meeting I attended on behalf of all of the lenders, the firm view of the Minister for Finance was that they should come before the committee. I am happy to try to facilitate that and will do anything I can in that respect. I am happy to attend with them but I cannot force people to come before the committee. I am aware, however, that the committee asked questions of them and they have replied. Some members may have even met them privately. It would help the sector if they came before the committee, just as our pillar banks are here today.

I met a number of them to try to resolve cases and to encourage them to come before the committee. The committee agreed at its previous meeting that we would invite them again. That is an open invitation to them to come before the committee at any time to explain what is going on. I presume-----

Mr. Brian Hayes

I am happy to facilitate that request in any way I can.

Maybe Mr. Hayes should encourage them again.

Mr. Hayes stated that "Irish banks and non-banks have the widest set of solutions available to mortgage customers in difficulty across Europe". He is including the non-banks in that.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Let us be clear about this - this was also the evidence given to the committee by the Central Bank last week - the mortgage arrears resolution process, MARP, and the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, CCMA, are the two principal tools of the Central Bank and there are absolute requirements on banks, non-bank lenders and credit servicing firms to deploy them. If someone has a difficulty with a credit servicing firm, the same expectations apply to that firm as apply to a pillar bank in terms of trying to provide the customer with an alternative repayment arrangement, ARA. The reason I made that statement is that I am not aware of a eurozone country which has the developed responses to significant arrears cases that we have. I have said publicly before that this can only work if people engage and reach out. While there may be difficult experiences from time to time, and I accept there are, there is an obligation on a credit servicing firm, non-bank lender or pillar bank to put a solution in place that is sustainable.

The reason I raise this matter with Mr. Hayes is that I want to follow on from Deputy Conway-Walsh who asked him if he had tried ringing a bank for any reason. I agree with the Deputy. Mr. Hayes should try ringing one of these vulture funds. The customer may reach out but the bank will not reply. I am saying this to Mr. Hayes because of the statement he made and is presenting. I have instances where customers wrote to the firms concerned and got no responses - zero - for 12 months. Those are examples of reaching out. I feel obliged to raise this issue because I have been central to some of the letters that were sent. I am surprised that this is the case but we cannot get an answer or response from them because they will not come before the committee. They are giving all the lenders a bad name.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Has the Cathaoirleach approached the firm directly?

Mr. Brian Hayes

Has he received a satisfactory response?

No, I have not.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I am happy to take that message away and relay it-----

The other issue I raise with Mr. Hayes is the fact that some of these vulture funds have properties, some located in local authority estates and some in private estates, that have been vacant for years and are impacting on the adjoining properties. You may as well be talking to the wall as trying to get the funds to deal with some of the issues that are emerging from that aspect of their property ownership. They have a responsibility to the State and society to do something about that. I am not holding BPFI to account as it is just a conduit to the vulture funds. Again, it is a matter for the funds to respond and a matter for the Central Bank and BPFI to play a role by telling them they will not tolerate this. I am saying this to Mr. Hayes but I am also saying it publicly to try to get a response from the vulture funds.

Mr. Brian Hayes

It is an industry issue if people are not satisfied with a response. They might not always agree, and there are always two sides to a story, but there is an industry responsibility to respond to that. We attended a Central Bank of Ireland round table with banks, non-banks and credit servicing firms in June of this year. I know the Central Bank has gone into a strong and invasive assessment of all of the cases in the credit servicing firms. As I said, those tools, MARP and CCMA, are applicable to credit servicing firms. It is not acceptable that people receive that kind of response, be it a public representative acting on behalf of a constituent or the customer. That is why we have developed the MARP and MABS tools with them.

I will give the Cathaoirleach an example of where the role of a credit servicing firm was critical. Mr. Crowley spoke about payment breaks. When Covid happened the first request from the Central Bank of Ireland, after the Department of Finance had spoken to us about putting the scheme together, was to ask the credit servicing firms to follow the banks on this. They did so. They are a part of the industry. They hold 80,000 mortgages and see people in significant distress. In a sense, their range of solutions has to be tailored to that but it is important that they respond. I am sure each of the CEOs of the credit servicing firms would not be happy, just as none of our banks or non-bank lenders would be happy, if that is the response people are getting. I am happy to articulate that view.

I am not too worried about their happiness; I am worried about the customers and-----

Mr. Brian Hayes

Exactly.

-----their happiness. An awful lot of the vulture fund customers are living from day to day and attempting to use the processes that are in place to deal with the issues they have. It is just wrong for these funds to be let off the hook. They will not get off the hook for the customers I have represented because I intend to name them at another hearing if they do not attend this committee. The time has come for this committee and the Houses of the Oireachtas to get serious about these funds and ensure that people who are marginalised and in difficulty, and who want to clear their heads and lives of this issue, are heard. We have had suicides and all sorts of issues, and I cannot forget that.

As I said at a meeting of the Irish Banking Culture Board in recent weeks, I want to separate the front-line staff in all the banks represented by the BPFI and in the vulture funds. They are just doing their best and act on the instructions of middle and senior managers. It is the culture within that cohort of management that I am interested in. It was suggested that morale on the front line was being affected by comments made at this committee, possibly by me, but I would exclude these staff. I am interested in the policy and getting a change of culture from the top down. That is how I will measure whether the culture has changed.

If the culture has changed, you will see it on the front line but some of the front-line operatives are only holding the line. I will leave it at that in terms of the vulture funds.

Mr. Hayes mentioned the joint supervisory team-----

Mr. Brian Hayes

The JST.

-----that would look over the banks on a regular basis. They look at the bank, but do they look at it in depth? In other words, in relation to AIB, did they find anything in relation to the EBS tied agents or in relation to Belfry, or, in relation to all of the banks, the outstanding trackers that they have on their books within the banks? Did they discover anything about that? Did they raise it with any of the banks here?

Dr. Colin Hunt

The JST is involved in every single dimension of our business. They would be aware of all the issues that we are dealing with at a point in time. We probably have teams from the joint supervisory team in our building on a daily basis as part of on-site inspections as part of the prudential regulatory oversight and they would be across all the issues that we are dealing with at a point in time.

Did they raise issues, for example, in Dr. Hunt's bank, in relation to the two, namely, EBS and Belfry? Do they raise issues with Bank of Ireland in relation to its IT glitches?

Dr. Colin Hunt

We have engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland, in particular in relation to customer conduct issues but also with the JST across all issues.

I take it that they were aware of it.

Dr. Colin Hunt

Certainly, in relation to Belfry and to the EBS tied agents, there was ongoing dialogue with the Central Bank of Ireland.

On those two matters, can the bank now conclude on those two matters?

Dr. Colin Hunt

I have been determined to conclude on all historical matters in the bank and to do it expeditiously. The pace at which we have done it might not be to everybody's satisfaction but we have got to get to the right conclusion.

In relation to EBS tied agents, I was very enthusiastic about the appointment of a mediator because we had been in ongoing dialogue on this topic without drawing it to a conclusion. We agreed to the appointment of a mediator. We strongly supported that. The mediator came back with proposals, as I understand it, a number of weeks ago. We have accepted those proposals and those proposals have now been put to the tied agents. I hope that we are at the end of that particular issue.

In relation to Belfry, this relates to investments that the group offered between 2002 and 2006 in a series of funds where investments were made in leveraged UK regional commercial property. There were six funds in total. The first fund made a return to the investors of 250% and the subsequent funds were very heavily loss-making because of the collapse in the commercial property sector and because of the global financial crisis. We conducted a complete review of those investments and for 1,644 of the 2,500 investors, we now have paid compensation, driven by the unsuitability of the product for certain investors and by process errors on our part. Our approach in dealing with this has been to lean very heavily towards the consumer interest rather than towards the bank's interest.

I presume that for the remaining number - I presume that Belfry 1 was fine and then, from 2 to 6, the bank was investigating it or reviewing them - that is where the 2,500 figure comes out.

Dr. Colin Hunt

The 2,500 figure relates to the totality of investors within the fund.

Including Belfry 1?

Dr. Colin Hunt

Yes. There would not have been complaints, obviously, arising in relation to the first fund.

For the remaining ones, are they caught up in one particular Belfry investment?

Dr. Colin Hunt

No. They would have been across 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

Are there 900 still to be examined?

Dr. Colin Hunt

No. Everything has been examined. Every file has been examined. In total, 2,500 people invested in the funds. For 1,644, either the investment was unsuitable or there was some sort of process error on our part. We have concluded matters from our perspective. We have made available to the investors €1,230 to assist them if they are looking for external professional advice and we have an independent appeals panel that we established which will continue to hear appeals until 30 November of this year.

I presume Dr. Hunt is anxious to get that wrapped up in terms of preventing any delays.

Dr. Colin Hunt

Absolutely. I want it closed out as soon as possible.

That is good news to hear in relation to both of those issues.

On the trackers, how many trackers, if any, are stuck in each of the banks? They will be aware of the tracker issue, the review? Are there any trackers that they had in the bank that has not been dealt with?

Mr. Tom Kinsella

No.

Do any remain? AIB has dealt with all of its trackers.

Mr. Tom Kinsella

We have dealt with all of them. Occasionally, we come across a customer or a customer raises an issue which we deal with, and the appeals process carries on.

What of Bank of Ireland?

Ms Susan Russell

In accordance with the CBI tracker review, we have conducted and completed a full review, including in which the CBI has concluded its examination. What we would say, if a customer has any ongoing query, is he or she should reach out and talk to us but at this point we have concluded the matter.

Okay. What of Permanent TSB?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We have resolved all our tracker issues. There are naturally some customers who are still processing through the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, FSPO. We have some customers who proceeded to bring their particular cases to the High Court and we are working through those, with both the FSPO and through a High Court process. That is in the region of 100 to 200 cases in total.

They are working their way through.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Yes. We wait for the FSPO to opine and we are part of that process. Indeed, for any customers with the High Court, we have to go through a High Court process, which we meet in that regard.

Are any further loan sales coming up in any of the banks or do they think they have reached the end of that approach?

Dr. Colin Hunt

At the peak of the crisis, our non-performing exposures as a percentage of gross loans was 30%. It threatened the viability of the institution. It is now just above 3%. The last number we announced to the market, in June last, was 3.2%. The pre-Covid non-performing exposures are down to 0.2% or 0.3%. The historical issues are now largely dealt with. We have a strong preference to continue to work on a customer-by-customer basis to try to put agreed restructurings in place. We cannot rule out future sales but they will be small, both in number and in scale.

What of the rest of the banks?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

Our non-performing exposure as a percentage of the total balance sheet has also fallen considerably through a combination of transactions that the Cathaoirleach alluded to but also through organic work-out solutions with customers. We are now at 3.6%. Again, we will look to opportunities for organic loan work-outs and there is the potential for transactions as well.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Our non-performing loan, NPL, ratio is 3.3%. It represents a portfolio of approximately €650 million. We estimate approximately half of those should work out. Approximately half of that portfolio are in long-term difficulty. The regulator has imposed quite significant capital requirements on banks across Europe around either retaining or reducing NPLs. Indeed, those quite significant capital requirements would involve a bank using its capital to support NPLs when, in fact, it could be using that capital to help support new lending and the ratio is in the region of 10:1.

To take our €300 million worth of non-performing loans, NPLs, that are in difficulty, that would support about €2.5 billion of lending into the economy. There continue to be quite stringent requirements from the ECB around how banks manage NPLs and we keep that under constant review.

Have all of the organisations reviewed the credit bureau, given that customers end up, for one reason or another, listed on the credit bureau and they are kind of blacklisted for a period? Is that something that is constantly and proactively reviewed by each of the banks?

Mr. Brian Hayes

It is not seen as a blacklisting. It is a history. It is one of the biggest reforms that was introduced post-crash, demanded by the IMF, correctly, so there is a continuous piece of information that the person can change or, indeed, the lending agency or regulated firm can change. It is not regarded as a blacklist, rather a history of someone's ability to repay. Regulated firms look at that in the round as to the assessment of someone's ability to take on new credit.

I had a small businessperson from Carlow with me who highlighted the issue. He said that because he was still being mentioned on this credit bureau, he found it very difficult if not impossible to get loans from the banks for his business. There must be some reference to it that, in turn, discourages banks from doing business with someone who is still listed on it. The reason he raised it with me was that he felt the bank should have informed the bureau, however it works, that in fact everything was okay as far as he and the bank were concerned. I presume it is something the banks review with customers.

Mr. Brian Hayes

We will look at that.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

If it is the credit register that the Chairman is referring to, as Mr. Hayes said, that is an industry-wide process where for any customer who has a loan, their data, their details and their loan repayments are kept centrally. That does inform credit decisions, since a credit history, by definition, informs credit decisions. The vast majority of our customers, of course, have a very strong credit history but there will be some customers who do not.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is a five-year history and that is the approach taken. We have already discussed how we think about switchers and we are looking back over 24 months. It is a judgment call. It is an absolutely required process to follow. Indeed, I had a customer in touch with me only yesterday raising something in the past that still exists, which I will look into. Coming out of the crisis, there are some anomalies that have to be fixed. We would ask the customer who contacted the Chairman to raise it with the actual bank, whichever it is, in order to see if things can be fixed. I would suggest that, around the edges, there are anomalies in the system that have to be teased out.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Of course, there is a Credit Review Office which the State has established and if a person is turned down, they can bring their application to this appeals system. The thresholds for that have been doubled in recent years so it might be something that would help.

When we had the Central Bank representatives at the committee last week, we spoke to them about how the banks record or account for their losses. There is an EU regulation that sets out how that is to be done. I presume all of the banks follow the EU regulation. Has any bank been following advice that has been given to them by accountancy firms around that or do they stick rigidly to the regulation?

Mr. Brian Hayes

Much of the way in which a bank makes a decision is a look-back at the past at one level, for example, at the level of capital or the level of liquidity, based on past performance. We now have a new tool called IFRS 9, which is an accountancy standard that tries to predict what is going to happen in the future. It tries to give an assessment of what could go wrong, taking Mark Carney's assessment when he famously said that banks are in business to take the worst-case scenario. That is an accountancy standard which is applied not just in the EU but globally and which all regulated entities have to follow. That new standard, IFRS 9, really tries to capture the likely risks that are coming down the track for any large institution and capture them in such a way that it can account for them in terms of its own assessment.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Any unrealised losses are netted off against capital as well so although, from an accounting treatment, they may not be an NPL, the loss itself is reflected in the bank’s capital. The ECB is quite stringent on that whereas, if we look at what happened in the US, that was not the case, and in SEB’s case, it was not fully reflected in capital.

So there is no deviation from the EU regulation and the banks all apply it.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The bank’s auditor would sign off. It is actually part of the judgment call that Dr. Hunt mentioned. As part of provisioning, that is absolutely accounted for.

I hope their sign-off is more forensic than the sign-off they gave from 2008 onwards.

For Permanent TSB, Padraic Kissane was raising issues and I read some comments in regard to tracker cases and the ECB rate plus 3.25%. Would Permanent TSB clarify its position in that regard?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Our position is that we are correct. It is not only our position. A number of cases have gone through the ombudsman, who has confirmed that the bank’s approach has been okay. Obviously, Mr. Kissane has a different view and he continues to pursue that and to represent customers who themselves have a different view. We will work with Mr. Kissane in that respect.

I hope you will because, way back in the tracker mortgage issue, he was one of the commentators who informed this committee and he is quite a reputable individual. When he raises an issue, I would like to think the banks take note and have a look at their own structures.

I spend a lot of time dealing with the ECB database and all the rest. I have the email from the Central Bank showing the data that I referred to and I will give it to the banks so they may be able to write to the committee in that regard.

Permanent TSB does not provide lending to people whose income is in sterling.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is correct.

In my county, there are over 5,000 people who commute across the Border daily and nearly three quarters of them, according to the CSO, are doing that for work. Therefore, there are thousands of people for whom Permanent TSB has decided it will not provide mortgage lending, despite the fact it was rescued by some of those very same people. Before I come back to Permanent TSB, is it the same situation with AIB and Bank of Ireland? If it is not, can they let us know what penalties they impose in regard to sterling income in the calculations for mortgages? This is a huge issue in the context of being able to afford a house and all the rest. Does Bank of Ireland provide lending to people with sterling income?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

The first response is that Bank of Ireland is active in the whole of Ireland so we offer sterling and euro products. If someone is living in the Republic of Ireland and is in receipt of sterling earnings, they can apply for a mortgage.

Does Bank of Ireland apply any penalty? Does it reduce the income by 10% or 20% as part of its calculations or does it take the full value of the sterling income in the calculation of the mortgage?

Mr. Myles O'Grady

I do not have that to hand precisely at the moment, but perhaps Ms Russell-----

Ms Susan Russell

Apologies, I do not have it with me but I can check and come back. That is not a problem.

I would appreciate that.

Mr. Tom Kinsella

Yes we provide mortgages to people earning in sterling. There is an additional stress test in relation to the foreign exchange but I do not have the details to hand. We can provide them for the Deputy.

Those stress tests are in the region of 20%, is that right? I am not saying that is what AIB applies but it is common for banks to apply 20%, with the exception of Permanent TSB which does not go into that market. There is a question of fairness in this regard, given that this is a small island. I am not familiar with Bank of Ireland but the banks operate across the Border. As I said, my county is deeply affected by this because of the 7,000 people who cross the Border to work, according to the census, more than half of them come from Donegal to Derry. The census also tells us that it is an area of high deprivation. I ask both banks to write to the committee outlining any penalties and the rationale for the penalties.

Permanent TSB said there were regulatory and operational restrictions. There is no regulatory restriction. Just like any other bank, it can apply foreign currency loans. Regulations exist, the 2016 regulations, but other banks are doing it and Permanent TSB could do it also. Why do they not? Its customers are not able to get that support.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We do not operate in the Six Counties so we do not have a sterling operation like our two competitors have.

Do you not need to?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It helps by way of the operational aspect of receiving sterling funds from customers and clearing those funds in a way that makes sense both to the bank and to the customers themselves, for example, handling sterling over the counter or indeed settling that.

Nobody is coming in and getting a mortgage over the counter these days.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We are just not set up to-----

The banks would not allow it in the first instance even if they wanted to.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

If I went to a UK bank today as a euro earner I would not get a loan for that purpose. It is not unusual in different jurisdictions. I operated in the Polish market when I worked there and it was not unusual not to lend to people who were earning in other currencies. Indeed, in that country a Swiss Franc issue has blown up.

These fall under the definition, under the consumer mortgages credit agreement regulations of 2016, as foreign currency loans. What AIB and Bank of Ireland offer, even though they operate on both sides of the Border, is a foreign currency loan. It will be deemed a foreign currency if a loan is provided to one person in one jurisdiction whose income comes from another jurisdiction. It is immaterial that they operate across different jurisdictions. The point is whether they are providing a loan to a resident in one jurisdiction with an income from another. It can be done. I am aware that penalties are applied by other banks.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I appreciate that and the decision to date is that we do not offer that. Indeed there are options for customers to go to either AIB or Bank of Ireland, with respect, but our position has been that we do not. Operationally it is quite challenging for us. I do not think it would lead to a good customer outcome in that sense because the customer could incur difficulties. I would suggest there is choice in the market. We are just not in that area, that is the key point, and we are clear about that. If a customer comes to us in this situation we say: "Our policy is not to support you."

I will leave it at that, on that point, and ask that the banks look at their own operations and the penalty that applies. The Good Friday Agreement requires all of us to try to harmonise issues on an all-island basis and that 20% penalty is sometimes excessive.

I want to mention an issue I raised two years ago with Mr. Crowley and others, and that is the instant payment app. It is ridiculous that the banks here still do not have an instant payment app and now we find out that they have hit another roadblock because they did not apply for Central Bank approval. I know Mr. Hayes and the BPFI are anchoring this. However, we have been talking about this since 2019. I say this in the context of the banks’ extreme profitability as a result of what has happened with the ECB. Investment in technology is expected by people, and I will not even get into the ATM faults and all the other issues but people expect proper technology and proper access to service. Things keep moving on but it seems the traditional banks here are still stuck. We are not going to have an instant payment app in 2023 by any of the banks. It will be at least 2024, I presume. That is ridiculous. How many years does it take for the banks to develop something? According to a conversation here two years ago SEPA instant actually allows them to plug in and do something but they wanted to do something different, something unique, themselves. However, they do not have it. The customers do not have it. Yet we have N26 and Revolut. Why not? Everyone is using these. They are so accessible. The kids have them. You transfer money instantly. Yet when somebody wants to be paid, with AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB, you need their IBAN number, you need to input it and get clearance, get help to do it, get a computer and so on. In this day and age there is an expectation of IT investment. At the end of the day the people have made significant profits for the banks and it is not being returned. There is some frustration there. I would like to hear an update as to when is a credible date on which customers at AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB will be able to transfer money to each other as they have been able to do on other platforms for many years. When is that likely to happen in the Irish banking context? The banks are so far behind on this that it is unbelievable. Regulations are moving ahead as well. It is frustrating.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I hear the Deputy’s frustration. There is frustration on this side of the table also. I am somewhat curtailed in what I can say because this is a separate entity. Under the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, it has been set up that way. I am not a spokesperson for Sinch. I note that statements have been made recently to the public market in regard to looking at alternatives. There was of course the first CCPC approval which took a two-year period. Things have moved on in terms of the authorisation requirements that regulators now look for. In many of the instant payment apps the Deputy has seen in Sweden or other countries which are ahead of us - and I accept that they are - they happened prior to a significant number of EU regulations. We are coming from that position. My understanding is, from a public pronouncement, that Sinch is looking at all the alternatives right now, within the existing regulatory environment, to see whether something can work and come to market. Obviously it has suppliers and it has to give certainty on this. It is working through those options right now. It is a separate company. The CCPC decision was absolutely clear that it is out of our hands. We are effectively a lobby group. We are an industry group. We do not have control on this. It is something around which we all share the frustration and we are trying to work through from the perspective of the consumer. We are behind on this, that is absolutely correct. For a country that has such a digital capacity and such a large footprint of digital users and businesses, we need to make more progress, in particular in view of the figures. The figures on instant payments have gone through the roof since Covid-19. We know that. However, I know that the people in Sinch are working on this as we speak.

I am sorry I cannot give any more information. I simply do not have it because I do not have control on this. As is absolutely right, I cannot have control of something where it is stipulated that I cannot be involved.

The individual banks might want to give feedback on this final point. A recent ESRI paper has questioned or pointed up a serious risk in regard to the requirement we have, as a State, in terms of the capacity of the construction sector to access credit. It did a detailed assessment looking at historic trends, how it has been funded through deposits and so on. It calls into question whether the capacity is there to ramp up in order to provide the lending that is needed in regard to construction for houses. The interest rate environment obviously has an impact on that. It is also about the social funding and how this was funded in the past. During the Celtic tiger period it was very much from international deposits and the changed regulatory environment. Within the individual banks, what are we seeing?

Some will tell us construction is starting to slow down in the second half of the year, while others will say different types of construction are orienting to different parts. What do the representatives envisage on the basis of where we are at currently and where is the capacity to meet the needs? Obviously, a significant increase in house building is required over the coming years.

Dr. Colin Hunt

I do not believe there is any issue with the financial question. We have the capital and the appetite to support the building of more houses in this country. I believe there are other capacity issues, related to planning, labour and skills but there is an appetite in terms of financing and funding. We are going through a challenging period globally regarding commercial real estate. We have taken a deliberately cautious approach to new lending for office development. We believe this is the right thing to do, given there is a likely valuation adjustment in the sector. However, our appetite to deploy capital in private housing construction and social and affordable housing construction is undiminished.

Mr. Myles O'Grady

More broadly in the country, the output of homes is likely to be similar to that of last year, and that is following a steady increase in outputs in recent years, notwithstanding Covid. We are very much supportive of that. Earlier I made the point that we are supporting the building of about 18,000 homes across 200 sites. On our balance sheet in Ireland, we have €5 billion in lending in total for property and construction. Within that, most recently we announced an increase in our funding committed to the building of new homes from €1 billion to €1.75 billion. This is very much focused on supporting those developments that are affordable homes, social homes and indeed sustainable homes. It is a priority for us, for sure.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Permanent TSB has traditionally been a mortgage lender, so we are at the other end of the pipeline. We are expanding into business banking across a number of sectors but construction is not one of those at this moment. We want to build our capacity to support the wider business area, and we will just keep it under review. We are not in the space at this moment.

Does Mr. Hayes have anything to add from an overall banking perspective? He represents more than just the three banks.

Mr. Brian Hayes

The report out this week refers to the appetite in terms of green lending and retrofitting. I know the Government's plan is to have 500,000 retrofits by 2030 and 120,000 by 2025, and 200,000 heat pumps by then as well. These are huge numbers, so the question is whether we will have the supply of labour to do all the work. That will be a big challenge. The big difference between now and 15 years ago, when the banks had very significant positions on real estate and development land, is that the assets are now internationally held, which limits the risk in a global downturn or big cyclical event like the one we are seeing. Particularly in the United States, real estate has been quite significantly devalued. We are watching this. I am aware of the ESRI report. To be frank, the Irish banking model is much simpler today, a point always made by Dr. Ugur. It is much less complicated than it was.

Dr. Ali Ugur

I am aware of the ESRI study. The capital has been in place all the way along, especially since the financial crisis. I agree with Dr. Hunt's assessment on capacity, in that it does not look like we are going to solve the supply problem by throwing money at it. We need to be able to get the labour especially so as to increase capacity substantially. That seems to be to be the bottleneck in my view. Obviously, there are different structural problems, including planning problems, but if there were perhaps 50,000 houses to be built, the lending support for mortgages would be available.

Mr. Brian Hayes

We have seen some success. The Covid loan scheme, the Brexit loan scheme and the current Ukraine scheme have involved a guarantee of up to 80% where we work with the Government. The banks deliver the loans but effectively the funding comes through the SBCI. We have seen this with the credit guarantee scheme over the Covid period. Maybe a model of funding entailing some sharing of risk appetite will help to provoke more investment in the key areas, particularly housing.

I have a very short question on the defective block situation. Where houses have been remediated, involving an outer leaf or a partial rebuild rather than a complete one, are there any conditions attached to somebody applying for a mortgage provided they have met all the remediation conditions?

Mr. Brian Hayes

This question has come up in the group. All the bank representatives attending the working group when that question was raised made a very clear point: if the certification at the end of the process states the work is up to the current standard, there is no reason the house cannot be sold in the future and a mortgage obtained against that security. We go on the basis of certification, as I understand it. All the representatives of the three banks at the meeting I was at involving the banking and insurance group on mica made that clear. Let us not forget that 15% of the total amount is kept until the end because we wait for the certification under the new scheme. From our perspective, the property is marketable again and can be sold again. The number one objective is to get people back in their homes, irrespective of whether they want to sell them in the future.

Just to be clear, must the houses adhere to the current regulations, not those from 2008?

Mr. Brian Hayes

Yes.

That is an important point in the scheme. If the property meets the standards, the banks consider it to be the very same as any other.

On Belfry and EBS, AIB was very forthcoming in terms of how the matter had been dealt with. Could we be provided with a written overview, to whatever extent this is possible?

My next point is for Mr. O'Grady. I wish to understand the IT glitches. Could we please be sent something in writing about how the issue arose, how it was dealt with and the steps taken to ensure it will not arise again? This would help us in our consideration in producing a banking report.

Could Mr. Crowley state whether I am right that, in spite of the cases going through the Central Bank and being dealt with by their representative, Padraic Kissane, there are still discussions on those cases, or are they finished?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

No. Any cases we have would be under the view of the ombudsman. We have some cases where the customers have decided to opt for a court process. We are in discussions with Mr. Kissane on an ongoing basis.

So the bank is open-----

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is quite an open discussion but naturally there is a process and procedure and due process has to be gone through. We have an ongoing-----

The bank does not close them off.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Not at all, but it goes through due process.

On the vulture funds, it was mentioned that MABS and some such organisations got contact details for each of the funds – the main funds. That facility should be extended in some way to Oireachtas Members whereby an Oireachtas email address could be given so we could contact the funds. Some people will not go to MABS but it has been a useful tool for all of us as we have dealt with agencies and banks. The banks have been particularly helpful regarding queries we have made to them publicly and privately. I have suggested to the funds that they should really provide an Oireachtas address to allow us to deal with some of the queries we have in an efficient way.

Mr. Brian Hayes

I would certainly be happy to put that suggest them to them – once the customers make it clear that they give authorisation to the Oireachtas Members. That is the case for all our banks. I will happily look into that.

Could I ask Mr. Hayes to clarify a statement? I do not quite know what he meant by it. He mentioned that, in the process, people rebuilding could be scammed in terms of the rebuild.

Mr. Brian Hayes

What I was trying to get at there, probably in a rather clumsy way, was that in respect of the public funding that will go into the rebuilding of that home, the person who is rebuilding his or her home should have a clear view of the costs involved. I have heard of cases where there are huge differentials in costs and there is a potential for significant scamming of people here unless we get the construction industry around the table, at the group I am suggesting, to work on what is the value here.

Mr. Hayes means individual cases and individual builders.

Mr. Brian Hayes

Yes.

All right. As a final point, the banks are all making profits now. I know the witnesses'' views on them. I have a view too. Some of the levels of profit are just obscene. However, the banks are there to make a profit. The level of profit the banks are making might allow them, in different cases for different circumstances, to press the humanity and compassion button and look at clients who are in difficulty in that way. It might be an investment in the banks' customers that should be looked at, as opposed to always looking to their shareholders, boards or whatever. It is about giving a bit of space and creating that different view of the banks I keep talking about.

The witnesses were very good to come to us today. I appreciate the exchange with members and the witnesses getting their different approaches across. I thank them and our business has concluded.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.52 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 October 2023.
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