JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 18

Visit by Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation.

Chairman

I welcome the Committee on Defence and Security of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation. We hope that the delegation will find the visit useful. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs comprises Members from the Lower House of the Oireachtas, the Dáil, and the Upper House of the Oireachtas, the Seanad.

Members of the joint committee include Deputies Dan Wallace, Pat Carey, Tony Dempsey, Ruairí Quinn and Michael D. Higgins and Senator Fergal Browne. We may have other Members attending as other business is being conducted in the Houses and Members tend to come and go during committee meetings. We are very pleased to meet the delegation from the Duma. It has been some time since we last received a visit from this committee. However, we know the Russian Federation ambassador, His Excellency Vladimir Rakhmanin, well as he has been in constant contact with us and visits the Oireachtas frequently. He has a number of good friends here and we all would agree that he has been an active ambassador here and an asset to the Russian Federation. We know the delegation would like to discuss terrorism and the threat to our countries. We have seen the results of the activities of international terrorists in recent days in Morocco and Riyadh. The threat is also present in a number of other countries in all continents. We would like to hear the delegation's views on terrorism.

We know that the delegation has concerns about terrorism in its own country. It is important to co-operate internationally to fight this new threat to world peace and we should use all the instruments at our disposal, including the UN resolutions on terrorism, to counter the threat. In Ireland we have introduced legislation to help in the fight against terrorism. However, we must be able to reassure our citizens and the international community that we will observe the basic human rights despite difficult situations.

Like other members of the European Union, Ireland has concerns about human rights in Chechnya and we hope that a political solution to the problem there can be found quickly. We are pleased to hear of economic progress in Russia. Perhaps the delegation might say something about that and about its proposals for the future. We are hoping to increase both trade and political dialogue with Russia bilaterally and as part of the EU. In this respect we look forward to the EU-Russia summit in Petersburg at the end of May and to the visit of President Putin to Ireland in the near future. We understand that the Russian people will have a parliamentary election next December. Perhaps the delegation might like to say something about this.

I will now allow the delegation an opportunity to express whatever initial views it may wish and perhaps then we could open the debate on both sides. I now call the head of the delegation, the deputy chairman of the committee on defence and security, Mr. Vladimir Melnikov.

Mr. Vladimir Melnikov

I thank the Chairman for introducing us, for the committee's very warm welcome and for inviting us here today. We would like to discuss a few issues before this committee.

I would like to introduce my colleagues, who represent various parts of Russia. Mr. Sergei Anokhin represents the Rostov region of Russia. Mr. Trushnikov represents the Urals, the Sverdlovsk region - the end of Europe so to speak. Mr. Pomogaibin is the head of the secretariat of the committee. Mr. Romaniuk is a staff member of our committee.

I am very pleased with the welcome Ireland has given our ambassador to Ireland and I know that the committee members consider him a friend. He is also a friend of ours. As the committee may know, our president, Vladimir Putin, addressed the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, the Russian Parliament, on Friday of last week and outlined several of Russia's policies for the near future. Some of these issues were considered today.

One of the main problems which President Putin outlined was the threat of terrorism and the role of the international community in putting counter-measures in place. Unfortunately, the acts of terrorism were not confined to Morocco and Saudi Arabia. Terrorist acts also took place in Chechnya in the past couple of weeks and this too is of great concern to us. In Russia we consider the main problem with which we have to deal is improving our legislative basis for introducing and strengthening counterintelligence measures. Unfortunately in our fight against terrorism, although we consider our legislative basis for countering terrorist attacks strong, it is still not as effective as it should be. We are also concerned about several issues regarding, for example, the prevention of the means of financing terrorism, and also the role of the press in reporting terrorist attacks.

I support you, Chairman, in your appreciation of the role that the UN has to play in counter-terrorism. We consider that it is not one or a group of countries that can decide how and when to fight terrorism. As for the issue of the protection of human rights, after the events of 11 September there has been an adjustment of views on the way we are trying to solve the crisis in Chechnya. After those events we have less reason to talk about double standards in the various approaches to terrorism and the situation in Chechnya. It is unfortunate that in recent times this double standard approach has resurfaced, especially considering the time that has passed since 11 September. It is necessary to realise the importance of protecting human rights everywhere, particularly in Chechnya.

I would like to share with the committee my personal opinion on what is occurring in Iraq. Many civilians have died and are still dying and yet we do not see many people protecting their human rights. Unfortunately, we do not see what is happening or simply do not want to talk about it.

Chairman, you also mentioned the upcoming parliamentary elections in the Russian Federation. We have already started our preparations for the elections and it is specially notable in the Lower Chamber of Parliament, the State Duma. We represent the Upper Chamber of Parliament - the Federation Council which is not as politicised as the Lower Chamber. My colleagues from the Federation Council will agree that we have our particular ideas and interest in how we would like to see the composition of our new State Duma. We would like to see it involved more in legislative issues and drafting new laws, as opposed to dealing with more political issues. However, my colleague Mr. Trushnikov is quick to correct me and state that such a change is impossible.

Chairman

Before I open up the discussion to the joint committee, I will state that we, too, are concerned with the human rights issue. We have gone into great detail when introducing legislation on human rights. Members on all sides of the Houses of the Oireachtas have been anxious to ensure that as we bring in greater strictures and controls and that we keep in mind the needs and rights of the individual. We have introduced numerous safeguards specifically for that reason.

There is much we can share with you because we too have had to recognise the need for the fight against terrorism. When such events as the 11 September attacks occur, there is a great drive to introduce greater control and measures in legislative terms. To balance that, we keep our eye on the human rights issues. We have introduced safeguards in our legislation on the personal rights of individuals, so that any such tightening up will not result in the abuse of individuals' rights. The delegation is very welcome to copies of our legislation on this matter.

Deputy M. Higgins

I, too, welcome the delegation. There is a long-standing link between the people of the Russian Federation and the Irish people. Maybe it is one of which we should make more. At the time the Irish State was set up, Irish writers were very influenced by the Russian long short story. In the contemporary period they are interested in Russian playwrights. The Russian influence is probably the greatest influence on the Irish written tradition up to the present time.

Turning to some of the issues of foreign policy which have been raised, there are some points with which I would agree. It is important that the authority of the United Nations, having been greatly damaged in recent times, is restored. There is an important issue which we have yet to discuss at this committee, namely reform of the United Nations in a post-Iraq situation, along with what might be called the regional structures of the organisation. These are topics upon which we might have a very good exchange of views.

There are real difficulties about meaning and language in this area. It is not only the authority of the United Nations which has been damaged, but that of international law itself. The existing regime of protection of the most basic rights, those ratified by the Geneva Convention, is being undermined as we speak in relation to civilians in Iraq.

When loosely used, the term "terrorism" can become meaningless. I would find it very difficult to take seriously those who equate the attacks of 11 September with the war in Iraq. It is equally difficult to equate with terrorists, and with people who are mindlessly killing civilians, people who are involved in liberation struggles, or people with genuine aspirations for nationhood, distinctiveness and cultural respect, such as for example the Palestinian people, who have been called terrorists. Similarly, in relation to the many component parts of what was formerly the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, there are people with aspirations to identity and cultural independence. It would be dishonest of me not to say that. I could not equate, for example, such an aspiration in the case of the people of Chechnya with the aspirations of mindless terrorists in North Africa.

The EU Foreign Affairs Committee rarely discusses state terrorism. For example, I have often looked in vain for a discussion on the bombing of a chemical factory in Sudan. It is as if one can drop bombs in the Sudan and hardly even have them reported in the press, while if such a thing were to happen in a western country, it would be different. I am becoming more blunt in my remarks on these subjects. In the discussion on terrorism there is often a quiet racism.

I welcome the Deputy Chairman's statements on Iraq. I agree that the Iraqi people continue to suffer. When members of this committee such as myself spoke about Iraq, we used UNICEF figures, which gave projections should, for example, Baghdad be the scene of door-to-door fighting. Half the population managed to escape, the Republican Guard collapsed, but the people suffered. It is scandalous that the international media have now walked away without commenting on the facts that no weapons of mass destruction have been found, there is still no electricity for five million people, and there is no water. We will come to that topic later. I am glad the delegation is concerned about the citizens of Iraq, even if the international monopolised media are not in the least interested.

I had the pleasure before of being an international observer at the elections in Russia. It was a very interesting experience. I am concerned however when I look at the international economic statistics for Russia. The growth rates for the past five years are immense, fuelled mainly by oil sales, but when one looks at the health statistics throughout the Russian Federation, it is a matter of some tragedy that male life expectancy is falling. As someone who is interested in Russia and its contribution to the world in the past and now, that is a source of sorrow for me.

Deputy Carey

I welcome the delegation. The European Union will this time next year be a union of 25 member states and shortly afterwards will be somewhat larger. There is a high level of co-operation already between the EU and the Russian Federation, which is to be welcomed. Enlargement provides great opportunities and poses great challenges for the Russian Federation and the EU.

In that context, terrorism knows no borders. Can the delegation comment on measures that the Russian Federation see as important in addressing cross-border terrorism? It is a source of concern to many people that there is such an extent of cross-border smuggling and drug trafficking. I am not suggesting all the trafficking originates in the Russian Federation, but it is on the route on which such activities occur. It is an area in which the Russian Federation and the EU should develop closer co-operation and strategies.

This is also a time when the EU is developing its defence policy - whether it will ever become a common defence is a matter of some debate. Many of us would wish to see closer co-operation between the Russian Federation and the EU in certain aspects of this area. I am pleased to see that the Federation is co-operating with the police mission in Bosnia Herzegovina and there may be other areas where such co-operation could be developed to the mutual development of both parties.

Senator O’Rourke

I welcome the group and have listened with great interest to what they have said. I notice the questions to the group and their questions to us have centred on security and dealing with terrorism. In that context, the delegation mentioned that President Putin intends to come to Ireland on a State visit. We are pleased about this as we have had interesting visits from our Government to the Russian Federation in the past. That marks a great start of co-operation between the two countries.

As Deputy Michael Higgins said, there has been in cultural terms a warmth in relations between us, small as Ireland is and large as Russia is. The flow of ideas between both countries has always been strong. I think of drama in particular, where many of the ideas shared by the writers in both countries have been very similar, sometimes in the darkness and sometimes in the light. I understand President Putin is rather successfully gearing the Russian Federation once again towards the West, towards Europe, and in that respect he is following Peter the Great, who had the same idea many hundreds of years ago.

Russia is gearing towards elections later this year and the presidential election next year. Do the political parties - the establishment - hope to have a charter of human rights as part of a political plan for the future? We are all aware of human rights, about which the committee Chairman spoke at the outset. We are very aware in Ireland of the situations in Russia where human rights have been and continue to be found wanting. I would like to know, particularly in regard to Chechnya - I know all about the referendum and the result - if there is a definite course of action with regard to human rights in the political plans for the parties for the forthcoming elections.

Chairman

Senator Mary O'Rourke is the Leader of the Seanad, the Upper House. I call on Deputy Dempsey.

Senator O’Rourke

We have not got an answer.

Chairman

We are going to take the matters together.

Senator O’Rourke

Thank you.

Deputy T. Dempsey

Along with my colleagues, I welcome the Russian delegation. We share many common cultural interests and I am delighted with the opportunity to speak.

As a newly elected politician who only a year in politics it occurs to me that we must act internationally in unison. There is another aspect of terrorism which worries me, namely the response of governments to illegal groups which I will not name but which act almost as individuals. The response of governments must be measured, proportionate and responsible. In my schooldays we were told of a Latin phrase, quis custodiet ipsos custodes, which translates as “Who will guard the guards?”

I share the view of Mr. Melnikov on the contravention of the rights of many people in Iraq, irrespective of the reasons as to why the coalition went there. We will probably never know how many ordinary citizens have been murdered. I also share the view of Deputy Michael Higgins that it is time that Russia, Ireland and all others worked to restore the authority of the United Nations so that we will have somebody to guard the guards.

Senator F. Browne

I, too, welcome the delegation. Following from the comments of Deputy Dempsey, is the delegation are aware of the serious incident last September involving Irish soccer fans going to Russia? They were attacked by a mob. When the security services were called, they did not necessarily help the Irish fans as much as they had done before. It was an unfortunate incident and hopefully will not be repeated. What guarantees can the delegation give to ensure the safety of Irish people travelling to Russia?

Chairman

The delegation might like to reply to some of the points raised, and we will have an opportunity for further discussion over lunch.

Mr. Melnikov

I will try to be very brief, and my colleagues may also help me out. I will do my best, considering we do not have much time left.

There are many problems in securing measures in the fight against terrorism, first of all and most importantly, legal issues, especially considering that to this day there is no definition of terrorism in international law. We also consider it important to unify the legislative basis for dealing with terrorism in every country to ensure, for example, that terrorists wanted in one country can be extradited from others. Sometimes there are difficulties in extraditing terrorists as they may not be considered a terrorist in the county in which they are staying. Such differences could obstruct our efforts in fighting terrorism.

As for the role of the United Nations, while visiting NATO headquarters in Brussels last week I was struck by an interesting fact, namely, that although the world has changed completely in recent decades, two structures, NATO and the United Nations, have not, unfortunately, changed at all and have failed to adjust to the new reality.

As for border controls and increasing Russian-Irish or Russian-EU co-operation, I would like to express my personal opinion on an important issue. Russia supported the measures taken by the United States in Afghanistan, where it encountered similar problems to those encountered by the Soviet Union in its war in Afghanistan in that it only managed to control the capital, Kabul. Unfortunately, the flow of drugs across the border has continued, which is unfortunate. With the dissolution of the Soviet Union, several thousand kilometres of our State border are technically impossible to control.

On the question of health statistics in Russia, as men we are also concerned by the decline in the life expectancy of men. The issue of health was also raised by our President in a recent address. Apart from addressing the major issues of concern, he also noted positive developments which are taking place in this area, including and increasing birth rate and a decline in infant mortality, which is, according to recent statistics, at the lowest level in Russian history.

As for guaranteeing the security of Irish citizens in Russia, I give the committee our guarantee that we will try to prevent a recurrence of the kind of incidents described. However, we consider the old principle that there are always two sides to a conflict to be true. I now ask my colleagues, beginning with Mr. Anokhin, to elaborate on several issues.

Mr. Sergei Anokhin

I thank the committee for inviting us and for listening to our contributions. I note the similarities between our cultures. For example, before coming before the committee we visited the National Museum where we saw traditional Celtic ornaments on display. We were surprised to note that we have similar ornaments and reliefs in our cathedrals. We also saw several other traditional Celtic ornaments which are similar to certain ornaments in Russian culture. The contemporary cultures of Ireland and Russia are also closely intertwined.

I will touch on several significant questions raised by members of the committee. I turn first to the questions raised by Deputy Michael Higgins. We consider terrorism and the aspiration to independence among certain nations to be different things. We also believe the aim does not justify the means. For this reason, we do not see any significant difference between recent terrorist acts in Chechnya and, for example, northern Africa. Aspirations for independence can also be very different and we must not confuse them with attempts by certain groups to get power by any possible means. Sometimes these means are non-humane. There was recently a referendum in Chechnya for a new constitution in which the majority of the population voted in favour of remaining part of Russia. They were the people who suffered during the war.

Terrorism appeared in the last century. Several countries are to blame for creating or helping certain groups come to power. Russia considers it important that these powers should repent. The Soviet Union was also to blame for participating in certain actions like that. For example, as you probably know, the US helped the Taliban and bin Laden. It also helped Saddam Hussein in his war with Iran. Many countries are to blame for the terrorist situation we currently have. Perhaps this is the time to call for measures that would cement the willingness of the international community not to use terrorism and terrorist methods in achieving their own means or perhaps not to use terrorist groups, as such, in order to gain their long-term political goals.

I would like to touch upon economic issues and the area of economic co-operation because it is important to individual people. When people are doing well economically they do not have the need to turn to violence or terrorism. When various countries and peoples co-operate economically they will think more than twice before turning to violent means because they would be jeopardising the economic situation and the co-operation that they have.

In the past few years the investment situation in Russia has improved considerably. I represent the Rostov region which is in the far south of Russia. It enjoys sustainable development and is very interesting as an area of investment. Several countries such as the US, Great Britain and France have invested there. Unfortunately we do not yet have Irish investment but we hope that will change. We do not have much time to discuss future economic co-operation but perhaps we could do so at a later date.

Mr. Melnikov

I understand that we do not have any time left.

Chairman

Does Mr. Trushnikov wish to say something? We have to leave at 1.20 p.m. because another committee is due to meet here. Perhaps over lunch Mr. Trushnikov, in particular, could speak to us. Would that be all right?

Mr. Trushnikov

I have nothing against it.

Chairman

In case one would not get the idea, we greatly share your tremendous progress in recent years. This was hinted at towards the end of Mr. Anohkin's contribution when he spoke of economic progress, the work which remains to be done and the co-operation between Ireland and the Russian Federation. We are pleased with the positive things that are happening, particularly as the European Union extends to the east. We are happy with the discussions and the development of relations between the European Union and the Federation. We look forward to many developments as, in many ways, we become nearer neighbours in the future.

Mr. Melnikov

We also highly appreciate the relationship between our two countries. September will be the 30th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between Russia and Ireland and we will have a special private party in our committee on that occasion. I confirm that our President has accepted the very kind invitation extended to him to visit Ireland.

Chairman

We look forward to that.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. sine die.