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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 2004

Visit of Palestinian Delegation.

I welcome to this afternoon's meeting, Dr. Ali Halimeh, delegate general of Palestine in Ireland, Mr. Maen Raschid Areikat, director general of the PLO negotiations affairs department and Mr. Anwar Darkazally, legal expert on Jerusalem and the wall.

The delegation has been invited to brief the committee on the current situation in the Palestinian territories. This briefing is especially timely in light of recent events which saw the assassination by Israeli forces of the founder of Hamas, Sheik Ahmed Yassin. I invite the delegation to address the committee, following which I will, in the usual way, open the discussion to members.

Mr. Maen Raschid Areikat

We thank the committee for the opportunity to come here today. I will give a short briefing on the situation prior to yesterday's tragic assassination of the spiritual leader of Hamas. My colleague, Mr. Darkazally, will brief the committee on the wall and settlement activities in the Palestinian areas. After that we will be more than happy to take questions from the committee.

The purpose of our visit to Ireland is to consult with Irish officials on the current situation in the Palestine-Israel conflict and discuss with them the role Ireland, as President of the EU, can play in that capacity and as a member of the EU for the remaining three months of the Presidency. We attended meetings yesterday at the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of the Taoiseach. We were satisfied with what we heard from Irish officials about the level of the Government's involvement to advance the cause of peace in the Middle East and to push European partners, the United States and other countries to activate their engagement in the Middle East so as to reach a peaceful solution to the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis.

The committee will have heard recently about Israel's plans for unilateral disengagement, about which we have major concerns. In the beginning we decided not to deal with this issue, but after consultation with regional powers such as Jordan and Egypt and internal consultation within the Palestinian leadership we decided we should deal with the possibility that Israel may unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip and other parts of the West Bank.

In the beginning we were sceptical about the intentions of the Israeli Government because we still believe that the Sharon Government does not have a peace agenda regarding the Palestinians and that all it is thinking of is a military solution to the political problems between the two parties. Yesterday's event is a clear example of this. It is exactly what the Sharon Government has been doing over the past three years. It tried to suppress Palestinian resistance to its settlement activities, the building of the wall and other occupation practices in the Palestinian areas by the use of force. In some cases excessive force was used, including the deployment of F16s, tanks and Apache helicopters against civilian populations and a few armed Palestinians in different areas.

The disengagement plan will be acceptable to us if it is done in co-ordination with the Palestinian Authority. Israel has to understand that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority are the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people and if it wants to evacuate or withdraw from any Palestinian area it has to co-ordinate that effort with the Palestinian Authority. It cannot co-ordinate it with the United States and Egypt and forget the most important party to this conflict, the Palestinians.

In order for us to accept an Israeli evacuation or withdrawal from the Gaza Strip it has to be complete and comprehensive. We will not accept any withdrawal that will keep any bases or settlements there after the Israeli army evacuates the area. We would like any plans for evacuation or withdrawal from the Gaza Strip to be consistent with the road map introduced by the quartet - the EU, the United Nations, Russia and the United States last April. It must also be consistent and compatible with President Bush's vision of two states in the region by the year 2005. We have to be realistic and accept that this target date may not be feasible. We may have to think about a different date, but at least it should fall within his vision of two states living side by side in peace with each other.

In dealing with Israeli proposals for unilateral disengagement, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip should be treated as one geographic entity. Withdrawal from the Gaza Strip should not be at the expense of the West Bank. For example, we would oppose such plans if it meant the removal or relocation of settlers from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank. We would also oppose it if it would mean that Israel would consolidate its grip on the West Bank by expanding and building settlements to increase the number of settlers there and make any future pull-out from the West Bank almost impossible for the Israelis.

We would like to focus on the economic element of any such withdrawal. If the Israelis are planning to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, it must be clear that they do not intend to suffocate the area after they withdraw, closing off the borders between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and between the Gaza Strip and Israel in a way that will paralyse the economy in Gaza and make the economic conditions much more difficult for Palestinians who are living there.

We would like to see trade between the Gaza Strip and Egypt and open crossing points between the Gaza Strip and the rest of the West Bank. We would also like to see Israeli measures to facilitate the movement of goods, services and people to and from the Gaza Strip. If these conditions can be met and satisfied, the Palestinian Authority will be more than willing to discuss with the Israelis and other international parties the plans for evacuation or withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

We are capable of taking control of security in the Gaza Strip but once again, it is important to consider any step by the Israelis as being part of the implementation of UN Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem which were occupied after the 1967 war in order to allow the Palestinians to establish a viable Palestinian state in those areas. This state will be economically and politically viable and will have control over its natural resources, airspace and international crossing points, which until now Israel has insisted in one way or another remain under its control.

We have witnessed much diplomatic activity in recent weeks, including visits from US officials and from Egyptian representatives in Israel and Palestine, the aim of which was to try to convince the Israelis to co-ordinate their efforts with the Palestinian Authority. Egypt has been playing an important role in trying to encourage internal Palestinian dialogue with the aim of reaching a ceasefire between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The assassination of Sheikh Yassin yesterday will probably delay these efforts; it will be at least a few weeks before they can be resumed.

We hope the current international efforts will convince the Israelis to co-ordinate their efforts with the Palestinian Authority so that discussions on a possible withdrawal from Palestinian areas may take place. It is to be hoped that this will pave the way for quick implementation of the road map which all the parties accepted last year. It is important that the international community makes an extra effort to convince the parties to implement their obligations under the road map and bring the parties back to the negotiating table to put an end to this cycle of violence, which will only continue if we do not resume peace talks as soon as possible.

The world was shocked to hear about Israel's assassination of Sheikh Yassin, an old man in a wheelchair, who had no involvement in the attacks carried out by the military wing of Hamas against Israel. He has always been in Gaza and Israel has always had the chance to assassinate him. The big question is why it has chosen to do so now. Why would Israel pick this moment to kill Sheikh Yassin? The only answer is our conviction that Mr. Sharon's Government is not really interested in a calming of the situation in Palestinian areas. It only has a military agenda, not a peace agenda. It believes the political problem with the Palestinian people can be solved by military means.

We strongly condemn the assassination of Sheikh Yassin. We believe he was a moderating influence within the political wing of Hamas. He encouraged the dialogue between the various Palestinian factions over the last two years and even supported the ceasefire that was declared in early July after Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas took over. He was a moderating influence in the matter of Hamas attacks on Israel. I am afraid his death will escalate the problems that currently exist. It will breed more violence and will prove once again that violence by Israel against the Palestinians will only produce counter-violence from the Palestinians and perpetuate the cycle of violence that we all hope will be put to an end.

Mr. Anwar Darkazally

I will give some details on the wall and Jerusalem and how all these things fit together in the peace process. The first point to be made about the wall is that the Irish statement to the International Court of Justice was very welcome. It was a strong statement, based on the law. The Palestinian struggle is also based on the law. We are grateful for this fair, objective and much-needed statement of support.

The Palestinian case at the ICJ, which is effectively the General Assembly's case, concerning the location of the wall in Palestine, is an indication that the Palestinians are trying to use the peaceful means at their disposal to try to advance the peace process. This demonstrates that there are two ways for the Palestinians to try to achieve their aims: the Hamas way and the way of peace. We have been rather disappointed that we have received such a negative reaction from much of the world community when trying to use the legitimate forums open to us to protest what is fundamentally an illegal act with serious political consequences for the Palestinian people at a humanitarian and political level.

We will discuss the impact of the wall from a humanitarian point of view. In light of what happened yesterday in Gaza - the murder of Sheikh Yassin - we can discuss the issue of security. The wall as it is currently being located in the West Bank will affect more than one in three Palestinians who will either be on the wrong side of the wall - between the wall and the green line - or who have land or jobs within the closed military zone that will now exist between the wall and the green line. This will create greater instability. If the key to any lasting peace is economic and social stability, to affect one in three people negatively will have exactly the opposite effect.

Why is the wall rooted where it is? If one superimposes a map of settlements and the settlement expansion zones around those illegal settlements in the West Bank, it seems perfectly clear that the wall is designed to incorporate as many settlers as possible on the Israeli side. What we are seeing is a legal regime being constructed which is essentially extending Israeli jurisdiction into those areas that are under Israeli military control. We are seeing a de facto annexation. Palestinians must now apply for permits if they live within that closed zone on their own land. They must now apply for permits to live in the West Bank on the Palestinian side of the green line. Israelis and visitors to Israel have no need to apply for permits. They can now access that closed military zone in the West Bank as though they were travelling to any part of Israel.

Another development which has nothing to do with the wall but fits in with the alarming trend I am describing is the bank raid that occurred in Ramallah two weeks ago in which members of the Israeli army raided four banks and carried off more than $7 million in hard currency. The Israeli army justified this action by citing a British emergency regulation from the British mandate period which justifies the physical seizure of assets suspected of use for terrorism. This is worrying because it shows Israel now feels it can apply its own law anywhere in the West Bank. Where the raid occurred is clearly part of area A under the Oslo accords so we are seeing the application of Israeli law not just in the 50% of the West Bank that will be on the Israeli side of the wall but also a muddying of the legal status of those areas which will become Palestine under Sharon's vision - the 50% of the land that is walled off and populated by Palestinians.

The consequence of leaving the Palestinians isolated on 50% of their land is that a viable Palestinian state will be impossible and I say this to the committee that represents not just the Irish Parliament but the Presidency of the European Union. The road map is being destroyed and there is no possibility that we will achieve two states living side by side in peace and security because a Palestinian state will not be viable. It will lack territorial contiguity, it will be an island in the north of the West Bank, an island in the south of the West Bank and it will lack any ability to be economically integrated. Crucially, the economic building blocks for a Palestinian state, tourism, agriculture and water will mostly be on the Israeli side of the wall as it is being constructed.

The road map is being torn up by the Sharon Government while it works towards the alternative of a unilateral withdrawal. In 2000, when Sharon was marginally involved in the withdrawal from Lebanon, he advocated an punitive approach to hit south Lebanon hard to discourage the belief that Hizbollah had gained a victory and we are now witnessing this approach in Gaza. It is curious that the first step Sharon should take as part of his unilateral withdrawal as an alternative peace plan should be to fan the flames further.

Where do we go from here? We need to see greater engagement by the quartet, particularly the European Union, because there will not be much action on the part of America since its monitoring mission has packed up and left. The European Union is the major player with the capability to act. We propose that the Palestinians also take unilateral action within the context of the road map to advance their own nation building. Palestinian elections are the key to a number of changes on the ground - legal reform and freedom of movement to allow for proper electioneering and voting. Such elections would be within the context of the road map, giving a mandate to the Palestinian Government and showing it is the legitimately-elected representative of the people. We will not then have the problems we have seen previously with foreign governments deciding whom they will meet.

There is a way out in spite of the current unilateral mood. It must be on two fronts - greater engagement with and support for the Palestinians if they take their own unilateral steps.

I welcome the delegation from Palestine. I also join in the condemnation of yesterday's action. I cannot see the purpose behind the assassination of Sheikh Yassin. It was an action to which any civilised state or parliament must object in the strongest possible terms.

I worry that when groups appear we do not have an exchange. We listen sympathetically and then the delegations leave without understanding that there are different viewpoints. If the Israelis appeared before us they would give us a totally different point of view. There would be less sympathy for them but they would still be heard. People tried to solve the Northern Ireland problem from a distance and had colourful ideas about what would work.

There is not much point in us giving the delegation sympathy or understanding, we must apply ourselves to solving the problem. Clearly the building of this wall is outrageous and we must continue to raise that issue. Questions to the Minister for Foreign Affairs are coming up and some of us have raised this issue and will continue to raise it.

The delegation implied that the European Union is not doing enough. I was the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs during Ireland's last Presidency and had occasion to visit Palestine twice. I felt that while the European Union was the paymaster, the United States exercised all the power. It was implied that in the absence of the United States, the European Union has a role to play. What is it not doing that it should be doing, specifically with regard to Ireland's EU Presidency? What should this committee be doing? We have the opportunity to raise this directly with the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

I welcome the delegation and the opportunity for an exchange of views. This a particularly important time and I agree that valuable initiatives should be undertaken during the Irish Presidency of the European Union.

One cannot say this and casually move to another subject because the concept of pre-emptive assassination that we saw yesterday must be unequivocally condemned by foreign affairs committees, parliaments, governments and states who are committed to international law. It is extremely dangerous because it is different from the policy of identifying alleged terrorists and assassinating them because it now feeds into a wider context of pre-emptive action and is descending into darkness. I propose this committee join the Government in unequivocally condemning this action.

It is interesting that the United States has stopped short of doing that. It has simply said it is disappointed, whatever that means. It is unacceptable but consistent with the pattern of calculated insults to the codes of international law and the institutions that seek to give them expression, including the International Criminal Court, which is always referred to derisively as the "Rome court". On these issues, however, there is no room for equivocation.

I want to be positive. If we are to move forward, we should do something to engage with the issue rather than just listening to representations. We do not engage often enough in the relationship between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. That dimension of the problem cannot be neglected any longer. Mr. Darkazally's presentation was interesting in suggesting a form of unilateral initiative from the Palestinian side. That is welcome but unfortunately, as a result of the assassination of Sheikh Yassin yesterday, the balance of the relationship between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas will have changed.

That is what I find most depressing. The Palestinian Authority will be expected to exercise restraint in conditions in which no one could, even with the greatest of resources, unquestioned legitimacy and massive support. Therefore, it deteriorates into Israeli propaganda: that which cannot be contained is a form of complicity, as expressed in the non-language used in that region. The Palestinian Authority is regularly asked to do that which it cannot do. In the Palestinian elections, the nature of the authority, its structures, answers to external critique and questions are very valuable and I support the idea that it go ahead unilaterally even in difficult conditions. The European Union should have been more active because the quartet's ownership of the road map has been eroded and the sloppy parts of the international media refer to it as "the US road map". It is the quartet's road map and if in advance of a US election due in November, the European Union is not seen as the active partner, an initiative from Russia or elsewhere is unlikely. This is the best opportunity for the Union to make a very real difference.

The misrepresentation of our Government's position with which we Opposition spokespersons are broadly at one, should be taken on. The Irish EU Presidency began with a propaganda assault to the effect that Europe is for the most part pro-Palestinian and cannot consider the Israeli position. The Israeli position is well protected by the largest power in the world which refuses to condemn assassination. This should have been dealt with more aggressively. We must be even-handed but that is not possible outside the framework of international law, therefore the response to the Israeli unilateral proposal on the conditions attached to withdrawal is perfectly reasonable.

The descent into an international concept of suicide bombing, the deterioration of Palestinian hope into the hands of extreme elements who suggest that out of despair this is the only way forward, is a disaster but there is no point in throwing up one's hands about it unless one is offering something positive instead. We are at an interesting point in European politics, the alleged war on terrorism - as if that were a single entity - is now capable of generating new propaganda assertions to the effect that anyone who opposes any part of a conflict is soft on terrorism. I am not soft on any form of terrorism. I unequivocally condemn suicide bombing but it is time we stopped listening to the suggestion that this problem has only two sides. It has a protagonist in breach of international law, supported by the greatest power in the world, and that is interested in annexation and illegal occupation.

I thank the Palestinian deputation for coming here and welcome it. I concur with Deputy Mitchell's view that it is important for our visitors to tell us what we should do rather than listen to us talk because we do not have the answers. Some of the events that have happened in Palestine are devastating. We pay great attention to UN resolutions and spoke much about them before the invasion of Iraq, yet they are ignored in the context of Palestine. I do not know whether the European Union has a role to play. Is there any peace movement where Palestinians and Israelis come together? There must be people on both sides who want peace. It is almost impossible to accept that events such as the action yesterday, the robbing of banks and building of walls can happen in a civilised world without condemnation. The only resolution or possibility of addressing this savagery, and that which the Israelis experience at the hands of suicide bombers, is through the European Union. Like Deputy Higgins, I believe that we have perhaps been too balanced in our approach, to judge by the attack launched on the EU when we assumed the Presidency. The infliction of terror and savagery is facilitated by the fourth largest army in the world and the Palestinians seem to have no way to defend themselves. Can the delegation tell us what it thinks the EU should do?

What is the role of Hamas? Does it antagonise the Israelis and if so what can be done about that? The unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza area will not happen in a co-ordinated way because it is not in the interests of peace. Maybe some day someone will prove otherwise. How does the delegation intend to handle that?

I apologise to the Chairman for my late arrival. The Government has not sorted out Dublin traffic yet.

We must live with it all the time.

Yes but those of us who are free in the country object to it generally. I welcome the delegation. I condemn absolutely the suicide bombings. In our proclamation when we declared a right to independence the term was "no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine". The bombing in Madrid and the bombings on this island through the 1980s and 1990s were horrific, indiscriminate actions against civilian peoples. Nevertheless, I agree with Deputy Higgins's view of the Israeli Government which has sidelined Yasser Arafat and called him a criminal and terrorist, in public. It continues these actions just as it did after the Munich bombings when it pursued individuals without recourse to courts or laws of any sort. Yesterday's killing of a religious leader was intended to destroy the Palestinian Authority because the public reaction to that will be uncontrollable. We know that any actions taken by the security forces in Northern Ireland which was another country were used as a recruiting system for the IRA.

It is time for the United Nations to take action. I was there during the elections in east Jerusalem when people had to vote in the post office. This was a technical measure the Israelis brought in so one was not voting in Palestine, but posting a vote to the West Bank that night.

I saw an incident where a young Palestinian man passed some remark to one Israeli soldier. In a second, 14 soldiers descended on him with rifle butts. A US Congressman, Mr. Gallagher, saw it too. One would not recognise the kid's face within a few minutes of what was done to him. Afterwards, we made a formal complaint of the incident through Colonel Shannon of the Irish Army. We were informed that the young man was carrying a knife. However, four witnesses saw no knife and the young man simply gestured with his hands. That is the sort of provocation that leads to the terrorism acts that we see. In a recent article by a young woman on the situation there, she said that the only hope and recourse was to continue the suicide bombings, which is frightening. The EU needs to take more action to balance what is happening on the American side. The UN needs to move into the area too.

I understand that the wall has affected 800,000 people which is a huge displacement. It also means a loss of income to those who cannot go to work. Palestine is a particularly poor country and it could not survive without support from other Arab nations. In Bethlehem, those who sell religious artefacts are hitting hard times due to a fall in tourist numbers. How can the UN be more active in ensuring peace in the region? How can the influence of the US be negated to some extent to introduce some balance?

I welcome the Palestinian delegation to the committee. The Palestine-Israeli conflict is the continuation of a profoundly depressing experience. It is an appalling situation that is poisoning relations in Arab countries and is one of the causal factors behind Islamic fundamentalism vis-à-vis western democracies. It needs to be addressed, but in recent times it has become worse. There is no prospect of settlement with the road map off the rails. The quartet is distrusted and inactive. There is some consolation in Deputy Gay Mitchell’s comment that Europe has still some credibility in the region. If Europe becomes more active the peace process could recommence.

One of the difficulties I see emerging, which Deputy Michael D. Higgins referred to, is this descent into a heart of darkness where sovereign states act illegally. It goes with the same territory as terrorist organisations. Sometimes it comes down to who's version of law and order is acceptable. By definition terrorist acts are contrary to the law in a particular jurisdiction. Recently, pre-emptive and retributive acts by sovereign states that have no basis under the UN Charter or international law have come to the fore. Whether one is talking about Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan or west Iraq, there has been a series of these acts. The same occurs in Chechnya. What is most disturbing is that of the participants - the US, Britain, Russia and Israel - three are members of the UN Security Council. Not only is there no basis for these actions under international law or the UN Charter, but the principal transgressors are members of the UN Security Council. If there was ever a need for the UN to get its house in order, it now lacks the moral and legal authority to be the honest broker. The UN's role cannot be anything but weak when three members of the security council continue to act in a way that is not in accordance with the charter.

Yesterday's events are on all our minds. Political assassination as a method of advancing policy was made redundant in the early Middle Ages, not only because of its illegality but because it was also self-defeating. It only brings people into a circle that descends into the inhumanity of tit-for-tat murders. I cannot see why the Israelis would start another round now when counter assassinations seem to be inevitable. I recall in the 1980s when a new secretary of state was appointed to Northern Ireland, he was briefed that X was chief of staff of the IRA, another six names were given as on the Army Council, Y was commander in chief of Northern Ireland and Z was commander in chief in the Republic. He expressed amazement at this level of knowledge and asked that, if all this was known in great detail, why not use special forces to take these people out. After a short pause, the chief of his office explained that the IRA had a similar list and the secretary of state's was the first name on it. Political assassination leads to a downward spiral into absolute illegality. While democracies cannot sustain the illegalities of terrorist organisations, democracy cannot equally sustain the illegality of sovereign states.

The delegation has given us little or no hope. It has not pointed out any way forward, but then there does not seem to be any way forward. The possibility of Palestinians taking unilateral action in response to Israel taking a decision to unilaterally withdraw was mentioned. Can this be spelt out in greater detail? It is not clear to me how Palestinians can take unilateral action to any effect.

Can the delegation elaborate more fully how the Palestinian Authority can advance unilaterally for an overall settlement? We meet at a profoundly depressing time. We are in a dark tunnel from which it is hard to see any light at the end. Every one of us must condemn without reservation political assassination, extrajudicial killing or whatever euphemism is used. It will only succeed in creating martyrs and provoking retaliation. No matter how much retaliation is prevented, it is impossible to prevent it all. I have always felt that the quartet approach has never been one of equals. There has never been an agreed commitment to advance a settlement by all partners in the quartet. As Deputy Noonan said, the quartet is off the rails. Whatever way one puts it, we have run out of road. To a certain extent, everything has been tried, and to date everything has failed. Others have mentioned the role of the European Union, which is the only honest broker left. That is why I would like to hear some elaboration on how the delegation sees the EU taking a proactive role. I suspect that some elements will veto any attempts at such a role, but that does not mean it should not be tried. Ireland during its EU Presidency would move Heaven and earth if it thought it could advance a settlement.

The delegation might assist us in determining how the Palestinian state, Hamas, the authority, the perception of Arafat within the authority, and the international community all contribute to part of the conflict and part of the solution. How does the delegation see the Palestinian Authority evolving in its relationship with Hamas, for example? Is there any possibility that reform of some sort within the authority is desirable, possible or likely? Every party in every dispute plays a part in trying to arrive at a solution, which is eventually a compromise. Deputy Davern rightly cites the evil influence the wall will have, making it extremely difficult for any settlement to emerge, or for a viable Palestinian state to emerge. Despite what we were told a couple of weeks ago, the wall is not chicken wire. It is a fairly substantial structure. It took a long time for the Berlin Wall to be removed. Walls have a nasty habit of being permanent. We have seen walls in Belfast called peace walls, that are there for a long time.

In this context we would like to hear how the delegation sees the European Union, and Ireland in its EU Presidency, helping towards a solution, which I suspect is not possible before 30 June, though some foundations could be laid.

I welcome the delegation and thank them on this very timely day for Palestine. We have an ongoing involvement with Dr. Ali Halimeh, who has been very good at briefing the Oireachtas on the affairs in Palestine and Israel. We should condemn the activities of the Israelis, in particular those of Ariel Sharon, in directing this assassination of the spiritual leader of Hamas. I understand that Mr. Sharon personally directed this operation with a television view of what was happening on the day. It is an extraordinary event. The American Government should be clear-cut in its condemnation, because if this is taken to its logical conclusion, no world leader is exempt from assassination if that is in the best interests of any other state. It is a most dangerous move, and the gates of Hell have certainly been opened.

From the point of view of the European Union, it is reaching the stage where Mr. Sharon should be ostracised from the world community. He should not be allowed to travel outside Israel. It has reached the stage where he is an unacceptable leader. A trade embargo on the state of Israel should also be considered. That has happened before in other states. Israel is out of control. It has broken every rule in international law as far as the United Nations is concerned. People are standing idly by. The assassination will be condemned today and forgotten until the next atrocity. Stronger action should be threatened against the state of Israel and its prime minister and, if necessary, carried out.

I understand there is a concern about the control not just of armed forces, but even Palestinian Authority forces within Palestine, that they are not in fact controlled by the authority. I wonder if we could get some reaction by the delegation. It is very difficult to deal with an authority that does not control the armed elements even though they fall under the umbrella of the authority.

I kept some questions to the end, but they have all been asked. There is a good deal of unanimity about the issues in the minds of the committee members. Although the Israeli military policies in the territories, including targeted assassination, are abhorrent, so too are the suicide bombings. Most people would find all these actions tragic and incomprehensible. One wonders then why that policy has the support of the Palestinians, for instance, and what is required to build a peace process. It has been clearly expressed that the EU can and should become more involved, to maintain the impetus and keep the road map going. In a way, the lack of involvement leaves this vacuum in which these horrific and abominable actions take place. We would like to hear the delegation's response to the questions.

Mr. Areikat

The questions covered a wide range of issues currently on our minds, which we daily face in Palestine. I will respond to some of the questions, and my colleague will cover the others.

The official PLO position on suicide bombings is that we do not condone attacks against civilians on any side. We condemn any attack on civilians, whether Israelis or Palestinians. This is a long-standing position we took three years ago after the outbreak of the Palestinian intifada against Israel, and we continue to adhere to this position. Nevertheless we all need to look at why young Palestinians in recent months have been involved in suicide bombings. In the past, the suicide bomber profile was that of a single 24 year old or 25 year old. In recent months we have seen a mother of two and a father of two carrying out suicide bombings. This has to do with the continued Israeli occupation and the Israeli measures against Palestinians, the economic hardships which provide radical groups with ripe grounds in which to recruit suicide bombers and to encourage them to carry out attacks against Israel. If we try to deal with the issue of military occupation and put an end to it, and then hopefully reach a peaceful settlement which will respect the rights of both peoples, we will be able to put an end to the suicide bombing phenomenon in Palestinian society.

The question was asked how the relationship between Hamas and the PLO could evolve. Over the last two years we have been engaged with Hamas to try to convince it to transform itself into a political organisation. Many rounds of talks took place over the last two years in order to achieve this goal, to get Hamas integrated into the Palestinian political system by first agreeing to a ceasefire with Israel, and later by trying to convince Hamas to take part, for example, in Palestinian elections. We told them that they could oppose the Palestinian Authority democratically in political ways but that carrying out attacks against Israelis and trying to threaten the national interests of the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority would not serve long-term Palestinian interests. Unfortunately, once again, Israel was unwilling to co-operate and respect the agreements that we had reached with opposition groups regarding a ceasefire. I mentioned that which was reached in July 2003 after the first Prime Minister, Mahmoud Abbas, took office. For 49 days, while the Palestinian faction respected the ceasefire and did not attack any Israeli targets, Israel continued with its assassination policy, the demolition of homes, the confiscation of land, incursions and arrests of Palestinians.

Israeli actions are not really helping us to try to convince Hamas and other opposition groups to renounce the military struggle and join the political system to become a political force in Palestinian society. We will continue to do that, but unfortunately events like those of yesterday will complicate our efforts and make it much harder for us. Two hundred thousand people went out for Sheikh Yassin's funeral yesterday. That is a strong show of support for Hamas. Israel is strengthening Hamas against the Palestinian Authority. They are making Hamas more popular and creating more sympathisers for it. Probably, and unfortunately, they are also creating more suicide bombers on behalf of Hamas. They are making our task more difficult.

On the role of the UN and the US, why should Israel continue to be a state above the law? Why do UN resolutions apply only to Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq and Kosovo when, in the Israeli-Arab or Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel is always protected by the United States?

Hear, hear.

Mr. Areikat

That is the moral question that should be directed to the United States of America and the Bush Administration. Its reaction yesterday to what happened in Gaza could be described as shameful. It did not even condemn the assassination of Sheikh Yassin yesterday. As long as the United States continues to provide cover for Israel at the United Nations, and as long as Europe fails to tell the Americans that what they are doing is threatening their interests in the Middle East, trying to balance the influence and role of the United States in the Middle East, the US Administration will continue to provide cover for Israel and encourage the Israelis to defy international law and UN resolutions. That must end because Israel should be treated like any other state in the world.

Someone mentioned the unilateral withdrawals, which will not be co-ordinated. The Palestinian people will be there. The Palestinian Authority is the only legitimate authority of the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It is an attempt by Israel to implement its plans unilaterally. Perhaps it will succeed. Israel could withdraw from the Gaza Strip without notice and leave it to militias, warlords, anarchy and confusion. However, would that serve the interests of either the Israelis or Palestinians? We are discussing the concerns that I mentioned in my statement with regional powers such as Jordan and Egypt, the United States, Europe, the United Nations and Russia to ensure that the Israelis do not embark on unilateral steps without co-ordinating matters with the Palestinian Authority.

Mr. Areikat did not address the question. It is really not doing the Palestinians any service at all to listen to this. We hear this all the time from both the Israelis and Palestinians. We read it in the newspapers and understand it. We have had experience of it. Mr. Areikat is wasting an opportunity to tell us what he believes we should be doing during our EU Presidency.

Mr. Areikat

Anwar Darkazally is coming to that.

Just a moment. Many people here will tell Mr. Areikat what he wishes to hear. I am not one of them. This business of simply going along with what he wants to hear is not a good idea. There is a very serious problem, and I understand the suffering of the Palestinians and all the difficulties they have. However, we hear this all the time. I asked him specifically about the control of forces by the Palestinian Authority and he did not address that question.

Mr. Areikat

I forgot. I saw it at the bottom. However, Mr. Darkazally will cover that and respond. We have already divided the responses. I cannot answer all the questions. He will talk about what is expected from the EU.

I have a certain difficulty, namely, that there is a great tendency among politicians generally to tell people what they want to hear. Politicians should at least be honest among themselves. There is a real opportunity. Ireland has the Presidency of the European Union. People like me are sitting here wondering what they could raise on Question Time with the Minister next week. Deputy Higgins and I have the opportunity to place priority questions which must be addressed by the Minister. However, I have not heard anything new and Mr. Areikat did not take the opportunity to address those issues.

Perhaps I might say a few words. I was in the Seanad on the Order of Business and I have made this point many times.

We will allow Senator Norris to make a short contribution. He was hauled away to the Seanad.

I may have to go again. I thank the Chairman for the courtesy. In response to what my colleague, Deputy Gay Mitchell said, I suggest that this committee might recommend the operation of the human rights protocols attached to the European Union's association agreement with Israel. There have been clear breaches. I am strongly pro-Israel in many ways, but it is breaching human rights and that should certainly be considered, as it is something we can do. We must do it, since we should support the decent people in Israel such as the 30 airforce pilots who have taken the risk of refusing to obey commands which they regard as wrong under international law. The parachute regiment has done the same, as have the Physicians for Human Rights whom I saw there, and so on. This committee should examine recommending such action to the EU. No one can accuse me of being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel.

Regarding the terrorist bombings, I have this to say, and this is the principal reason I asked for space to speak here. Thanks to Dr. Halimeh, I received a letter from President Arafat unambiguously condemning suicide bombing. The committee should note and record that. I am tired hearing on radio that there has been no condemnation. I have it physically in my office. It is on the record of Seanad Éireann and that should be the definitive end of the matter.

Regarding Sheikh Yassin, he was a sinister and fanatical figure as far as I am concerned, but such figures have human rights. No matter what he said, he is entitled to due process of law and something in the human spirit revolts against firing a rocket at a man in a wheelchair. Even if that were not the case in human terms, the strategic implications are absolutely horrifying. They have sown dragon's teeth. Those people are not joking when they say they have opened the gates of Hell. It will be the ordinary civilian populations of Israel and the Gaza Strip which pay and Bush and Sharon will be perfectly happy back in their little nests. I have noticed a great decline in the Middle East situation since President Bush was elected. It is not just that he did not condemn the attack and contented himself by saying that he was troubled by it; he has licensed such behaviour. It is in the moral penumbra created by the Bush presidency that Mr. Sharon can engage in his criminal acts, and I deplore them.

On Sheikh Yassin, I hate the idea of suicide bombing. There are people whom I love on both sides in the region, and I do not want to see any of them injured or killed. When they killed him, the thing that immediately sprang to mind, as I said in the Seanad today on the Order of Business, was a speech made by one of our national figures, the late Pádraig Pearse, at the grave of O'Donovan Rossa. Pearse stated, "The fools, the fools, the fools - they have left us our Fenian dead".

In my opinion Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is more dangerous dead than he ever was alive. I feel for the people I love very much in Israel and in Palestine in the aftermath of this dreadful, sinister and cynical affair.

Finally, even within that awful government, two people spoke out. Even Tommy Lapid, the Minister for Justice, a good right winger, who I know, revolted at it. Abraham Poraz, Minister for the Interior, also spoke out against it, so that if we do not, then we also are responsible. I say that, although I want that wonderful experiment in Israel to succeed and not to be betrayed by people such as Sharon. I look forward to the day when the Palestinians and the Israelis, who are cousins, can live in harmony. I saw a piece by Kevin Myers in The Irish Times, which was horrifying. He was talking about anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism can be against the Palestinians. They are a Semitic people. They are the cousins of the Jews. If we can facilitate the situation in any way during our Presidency we should have the courage to do it and risk alienating the Bush presidency which, please God, will last about as long as Aznar’s Government.

The question of who is next for assassination comes to mind. That is a serious question.

Mr. Anwar Darkazally

Thank you, Chairman. I thought you were going to nominate me next for assassination. I will be answer three specific questions. One was raised by Deputy Mitchell and echoed by other Deputies on the European Union and what can be done. There is a political vacuum and the European Union is well placed to act within it. Since the Oslo process, Israel has not had to pay for its obligations as an occupying power under the Geneva Convention. Donor countries have stepped in. My salary is paid by the Government of Sweden. Other members of my unit are paid by the Dutch, Norwegian or British governments, etc. A situation exists whereby many members of the Palestinian Authority and of the government are almost effectively employed directly by the European Union or by donor countries. This is particularly true of the security sources who are paid directly by senior figures such as military commanders within the PA. I am attempting to answer two questions at once.

Since the European Union is donating so much money to the Palestinians, there is room to demand accountability at the same time for where the money goes. This may sound patronising and neo-colonial, but a generation - almost a class - of NGO workers is springing up where there is money to pay for certain types of charity work. A charity known as au Canun - the Law - which has just gone under, was heavily funded by donor governments because it was essentially a branch of the Communist Party that dealt with human rights. It criticised the PA as well as criticising Israel. People liked the fact that it did this and that the charity seemed to be balanced. However, it pocketed $6 million of the $10 million it was given, because there was no accountability, etc. With the money can come accountability. There is a massive EU presence across the territories and within Israel. There is no reason more accountants could not be included among the number of people who go there. I work on the energy negotiations, in addition to covering Jerusalem and the wall, and massive amounts of money are being allocated. Some €200,000 has just been allocated for three experts and I am not entirely sure what the purpose is. To allocate a budget with accountability is a great way to ensure certain things get done. If they are to be done properly, however, and if members of the security forces are not going to be paid in cash, but through the banks, the banking system must be seen to be credible and not subject to random seizures by the Israeli army.

In parallel with organising and accountability a significant political track must be in evidence. This is where the EU also has leverage over Israel - through the association agreement and the volume of trade that Israel does with the European Union. The European Union, by making life difficult for Israel economically, could quickly make it spring to attention and not always by censuring the Government. A specific example relates to the labelling of goods which come from settlements. A relatively small percentage of goods come from settlements. However, all goods from Israel are branded with the same brush because it is not known what comes from a settlement and what is exported from Israel proper. Genuine honest Israeli businessman are pressuring the settlers and the Government to pressure the settlers to make the changes to label their products accurately. In this way a dynamic or momentum is being created within Israel which constitutes a desire for change within the Israeli people. They are being given the incentive to change because it directly harms their economic interests. These are two strings and they are both financial. We know it is only financial pressure that works as was seen with "the first" George Bush when he held back on loan guarantees for the first time during the first Gulf war. That would be two avenues for change, one in the context of PA reform or nation building, and the second over Israel.

We have touched upon the EU-Israel association agreement. I understand a delegation of parliamentarians is to formally petition the Irish Presidency for the abrogation of the association agreement on 4 May. I would strongly urge that the association agreement with Israel be broken. It is the equivalent of granting China full membership of the World Trade Organisation: one cannot have a situation where business is being done while countries turn a blind eye to sweat shops and human rights abuses. The situation is exactly the same with Israel. Why is Israel so fond of letting the few Palestinians who are employed come to work in those dubious grey area zones between Israel and the occupied territories? It is simple - because health and safety laws and other attributes that products must have do not apply in those zones. It is all right if someone sticks an arm in a machine and it is amputated. There is no compensation to be paid and he or she can just be fired. The association agreement is an extremely good way of financially pressurising Israel into doing something that really makes a change.

What is next down the line? Israel is undoubtedly looking for membership of the European Union at some point. Socially, Israelis play football in the European leagues and participate in the European Song Contest. All these small cultural initiatives gradually get people accustomed to seeing the Israeli flag being raised along with the European Union members' flags. It must be made perfectly clear to Israel that there will be no membership of the European Union for so long as it does not come to a full and final peace agreement with the Palestinians. That must be made absolutely clear. It must be made clear either as a stick: "You must not do this or you will not become a member of the European Union"; or as a carrot: "You can become a member of the European Union if you do this list of things - peace with the Palestinians, stop killing, house demolitions, etc."

There is a high European Union presence in the territories and in Israel. Substantial numbers of people are there already. Mark Ott, the European Union peace envoy, is an incredibly active, engaged and well-informed man. However, his recommendations are not being acted upon. He knows exactly what the situation is, with the wall and the settlement expansions. He understands the correlation between it all. However, I not see what comes next after his visits. He comes, he visits us and the Israelis, he discusses and he returns. There appears to be a stasis in action, a slight freeze. At the same time I would question how the European Union might fully benefit from the resources already committed there.

There is something else that the European Union and more specifically Ireland, could do. Ireland has fantastic relations with the United States. It possibly has more access to the US presidency than any other country. We know Ireland has raised the Palestinian issue every time with the US. We thank Ireland for that and advocate that it keeps on raising the Palestinian issue with the US presidency - and with all members of the US Government - and if possible, when Irish delegations come to see the territories, they should bring US representatives with them. It is so effective when people see with their own eyes what is going on in the territories. The only way to really change those decision makers is for them to get out of their armoured cars for just a moment and see what life is like on the Palestinian streets. Then they understand why there must be change and a resolution to the conflict.

We heard some questions on unilateral steps. Unilateral steps work in two ways. There must be political unilateral steps and the creation of facts on the ground. My unit had some success in raising money because it is partly funded by the Norwegian Government. This was used to pay for tents for those farmers who, cut off from their land by the wall, can now sleep in their fields. This has been successful because they can continue to tend their crops and make money if they can bring their goods to town and sell them. We have bought them a season, maybe only one season. This was a small investment, maybe $25,000, just to save one agricultural area. We must see more of this but it is difficult to encourage someone to sleep in their field when a wall has been placed between one's house and one's field. We have seen a lot of unarmed peaceful resistance to the bulldozers as they have been coming in, similar to what occurred in the first intifada. We have seen what the Israeli Government has done in these cases, none of which has hit the news in quite the same way. However, in Beit Surik, north of Jerusalem, three unarmed civilians were killed. One was a 65 year old man who died from the inhalation of the particularly nasty tear gas that the Israelis use. The two others were shot dead, while a fourth is brain-dead in hospital and will shortly die. We need to see facts on the ground but when people wonder why we do not protest peacefully, they should know that peaceful protesters are being shot. Let me remind the committee that one in every 100 Palestinians has been killed or injured in the last three years of the intifada.

My final point on unilateral action refers to my first point. The Palestinians are using the fora that are available, that is why they have brought a case on the wall to the ICJ. That case had some success in what is possibly the most accessible avenue for our battles, namely, the media. The ICJ engaged many people. One could see the killing of Sheikh Yassin as a response to the Palestinian success in uniting people, making them feel that there was a common goal and that the world was with us.

The final question was on the peace movement. It has been very difficult for the Palestinian and Israeli peace movements to formally meet and do anything, because Israelis are forbidden from coming to the West Bank. They are not allowed in unless they wear a green uniform and carry a rifle. We do not see many unarmed Israelis. However, it is worth pointing out that some Israelis have been very brave in protesting about the fence alongside Palestinians, including Gil Na'amati, who was shot and hospitalised for supporting an unarmed Palestinian protest against the fence. We would like to see more co-ordinated peaceful protesting but it is obviously difficult, given that Israelis are not allowed to visit us.

I asked a question which was repeated by Deputy Carey yet it was not answered. Could we try again to get an answer? Mr. Darkazally indicated in his introductory remarks that Palestinians were prepared to take unilateral action.

Mr. Darkazally

I am sorry, I started to answer the question. We believe that elections would be an important step forward for the Palestinian people as well as for the Government. Elections are included as part of phase 1 of the road map. They are, therefore, on the agreed agenda of steps that must be taken to build a Palestinian state in the framework of a two state solution. Elections would enable the series of reforms that the Palestinians have been carrying out to be publicised. These include the appointment of the role of a Prime Minister to electoral reform and the drafting and finalising of a constitution. This would show everyone that there is work being carried out behind the scenes and that the Palestinians are still continuing with their civil reform obligations under the road map. This is the part that people do not talk about and it is crucial to nation building.

Elections are important for two constituencies; mainly for the Palestinian people but also for the West. We have spoken to a number of people who have told us that they have been sympathetic to the Palestinians but that the suicide bombings have changed things. The Western aspect is as important as that of the Palestinian people because it shows that the Palestinians are sincere about moving forwards. If elections took place, people would break free from constantly reacting to Israeli actions and come up with their own Palestinian agenda. Palestinians would ask themselves what they can do, how they could create jobs, and they would acknowledge that they can not rely on the UN forever. They would look for ways to distinguish themselves, apart from the work that is done by local grass-roots organisations, who distribute money to those who are unemployed or look after minority groups. We need to move away from this to what looks like a democratic state. If we can get support from the international community Palestinian elections would be a very positive step forward. The EU framework is there for that. There is an EU election monitoring group on the ground. There is also a UN election monitoring group, but these people have done nothing for years.

There are those two factors in the Palestinian unilateral stance. Elections form the key part of the first one. The second factor is the support for facts on the ground, for those who have to live in fields, for those who have to try to ensure that land that may otherwise be annexed by Israel is preserved as Palestinian.

I did not get a reply to the question on the control of the security forces.

Mr. Areikat

The last three years of confrontation led to Israel targeting not only Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other militants, but the infrastructure of the Palestinian security forces, which occurred during the first year of the intifada. This included the national security forces, the preventative security forces, the intelligence services and so on. With the exception of the Gaza Strip and Jericho in the West Bank, the infrastructure has been completely destroyed by Israeli attacks and raids. This led to the fragmentation of the Palestinian security apparatus. Efforts are being made with the help of Egypt and to some extent Jordan, to try to reorganise these Palestinian forces into three main branches; national security, intelligence and the police. These would be placed under two unified operation rooms; one in Gaza and one in the West Bank. They would report to a central command and would delegate authority to various security apparatuses. It is an effort to meet some of the demands of the international community, Egypt and Jordan, to try to reduce the number of security forces and to create a central command over them. We need the logistical support of Jordan and Egypt to achieve that.

There is only one other question at this stage. We are anxious that a delegation travel to meet both sides. Have the witnesses any ideas how that can be done?

Mr. Darkazally

The committee should give us a call. We regularly organise trips for foreign diplomats, journalists and so on. If members of the committee would like to come, we would be more than happy to show them things like the wall.

Mr. Areikat

If the committee is planning an official visit, it will need to contact officials on both sides. The best thing to do is to inform the delegate general of Palestine in Ireland, Dr. Ali Halimeh, who will contact those the committee wishes to meet and will be more than happy to help.

We should go soon.

We should do so as we currently hold the EU Presidency. We can discuss that later.

The committee would like to thank the delegation for attending today and answering its questions patiently. The current situation is very disturbing and we are very worried about the trend that is developing. We want to see some form of road map and a movement develop towards peace. We in Ireland have the experience of a long, slow peace process so we do not expect miracles overnight, but we do look forward to getting everything back on track. The members are deeply concerned and want to do something practical and realistic.

Does the delegation believe that Palestine should join the EU?

Mr. Areikat

It is an interesting idea for the future.

It would be an interesting idea for the present.

Mr. Areikat

We have to deal with the Israelis first.

Dr. Ali Halimeh has the look of an EU Commissioner.

That is the point. It is necessary that the two states join, preferably at the same time.

Dr. Halimeh

If we were invited we would be happy to join.

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