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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Development Co-Operation) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Feb 2005

Debt Relief: Presentation.

The discussion on debt relief in the context of the institutions of the IMF and the World Bank is the main topic of the meeting with Department of Finance officials. I welcome Mr. Bob Bradshaw as well as Ms Paula Slattery from the Department of Foreign Affairs.

As part of its work programme for 2005, the sub-committee agreed to examine debt relief in the context of institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank with Department of Finance officials. The issue has recently been thrust to the fore of the international agenda, particularly after the tsunami disaster. There has been a great deal of public debate recently about whether debt relief is the best way forward. Some feel that the cancellation of debt might enrich the very few and ignore impoverished populations. As part of a package of aid, we will hear the comments of Mr. Bradshaw and Ms Slattery on whether debt relief is the best way. In preparation for the meeting, we have circulated a joint submission from Action Aid Ireland, Trócaire and Oxfam. I am once again pleased to welcome Mr. Bradshaw and Ms Slattery. Having heard the submissions, we will take questions and comments.

Mr. Bob Bradshaw

I extend my sympathies to the Senator on his bereavement.

We have been invited to discuss debt cancellation issues. In 2002, the Department of Finance and the Department of Foreign Affairs published a joint paper on the question of debt relief to which I refer the committee. That set out our position in very much more detail than we are likely to be able to give today regarding such issues as debt sustainability and cancellation. In that paper we noted in particular that Ireland had no debts to cancel. We therefore called on other countries and institutions to take action. Some people felt that it was a little self-serving of us since it was easy for us to adopt such a policy if it did not have any immediate impact on us.

We very much welcome the recent attention given by other states to the issue of debt cancellation. Ireland was one of the first developed states to endorse debt cancellation on a wide scale. We have been a generous contributor to the HIPC initiative and the International Development Association and are one of the largest and most significant donors on a per capita basis. Any discussion of debt cancellation implies answering three fundamental questions. Whose debt should be cancelled, who should pay for it and how and when, and what use would be made by the recipient of that income? On most of those points there is relatively little unanimity despite what slogan or headline-writers might imply.

The question of whose debt covers an expanding list. It is often assumed that the poorest countries represent the greatest debts held by the international financial institutions, but that is not necessarily the case. Many of the debts to the IMF are, for example, in respect of three countries, Turkey, Argentina, and Brazil, which are not regarded as poor countries in conventional classifications and are certainly not at all poor by the standards of many African countries, especially those eligible for HIPC. Views have been expressed both for and against the cancellation of such debts, in full or part.

Some recent cancellation discussions have also focused on Iraq, a resource-rich country that we all know has considerable potential if peace can be established. The figure of $127 billion of debt forgiveness for Iraq has been mentioned. Some countries have waived Iraqi debt in whole or in part. As Iraq was essentially out of contact with the IMF for over 20 years, little if any of the debt was with the Bretton Woods institutions. However, debt may be owed to other international financial institutions in that region, of which Ireland is not a member. An international donors' conference on the reconstruction of Iraq was held in Madrid in October 2003. During the conference, pledges amounting to $33 billion in grants and loans were announced for the period 2003-07. I mention the figure of $33 billion compared to estimates of $127 billion, to show the scale of the overall debt cancellation that might be required there as against the overall Iraq donor outturn so far.

Afghanistan has never been a wealthy country. As we know it is a priority country for debt cancellation under some programmes. In Africa the degree of debt varies considerably. Some very poor failed states probably have relatively little debt. They have been outside the fold for so long nobody is prepared to lend to them. They have few working institutions whose writs, such as they are, do not extend far beyond the capital city, in any event. Nonetheless, the citizens of such states are in considerable distress, as we all agree and accept. Some of the relatively well-governed African states have high debt levels, while others do not, even though they may well feel equally deserving of assistance if their sister states with similar levels of economic development are given concessions. Some are being assisted and some are not.

Should the debt of all the so-called IDA-only countries be relieved? Those are countries, many of them in Africa, which have relative poverty, defined as gross national product per person below an established threshold, currently $835 per year; a lack of credit worthiness to borrow on market terms and therefore in need of concessional resources to finance the country's development programme; and good policy performance, defined as the implementation of economic and social policies that promote growth and poverty reduction.

Among the countries affected by the tsunami, debt levels and attitudes to debt cancellation vary considerably. They may prefer older forms of assistance with reconstruction and some countries do not wish to have the stigma of special debt cancellation measures and account of that taken by the credit rating agencies. As the sub-committee knows the G7 agreed to an interim measure for the tsunami-affected states, pending a full assessment of the situation, if requested by these countries. The potential list of countries to be relieved of debt runs through the alphabet from Afghanistan, via Argentina possibly to Zimbabwe. Various plans are also circulating, some seeking a debt moratorium or a temporary stop; some relief on the interest due only; some partial payment of debt, such as a 50% waiver; some the waiving of so-called odious debt contracted as regards this or that project or regime; and ranging out to the full cancellation of almost all state debt that qualifies.

Would any such write-off be for one time only or would future debts, as yet uncontracted, also be forgiven? After all the conditions creating debt distress are not significantly affected by debt forgiveness in many cases. The G7 finance Ministers' meeting last weekend considered a number of proposals. They discussed several different suggestions by G7 members to resolve the debt issue, without reaching a definitive conclusion. The following is a brief excerpt from their communiqué:

The enhanced HIPC initiative has to date significantly reduced the debt of 27 countries and we affirm our commitment to the full implementation and financing of the initiative. Moreover, individual G7 countries have gone further, providing up to 100% relief on bilateral debt. However, we recognise that more needs to be done. We are agreed on a case by case analysis of HIPC countries based on our willingness to provide as much as 100% multilateral debt relief.

We also ask the IMF and the World Bank to look at the issue of debt sustainability in other low income countries. To finance the relief of debt owed by the IMF and to enable the fund to continue to play a role in the poorest countries, the managing director has stated that he will bring forward proposals at the spring meetings covering the fund's gold and other resources and in an orderly way. We look forward to his proposals. For the relief of debts owed to the World Bank and the African Development Bank, we will work with our management and shareholders to bring forward proposals for agreement at the spring meetings to achieve this, without reducing the resources available to the poorest countries through these institutions.

We also call on the non-Paris Club creditors to provide at least their share of HIPC debt relief and we ask the IMF to report on progress at the spring meetings.

It might be fair to say that much work yet needs to be done before the G7 countries reach a consensus on a model approach to debt, but at least the focus on Africa is encouraging. In addition, many debt plans propose debt relief only for states meeting minimum standards of conduct in terms of human rights or future good governance. They are usually less specific as regards exactly what standards will apply. Consequently, there are future variations in the potential cost of all such plans, but common to all of them is the search for who should pay, which is perhaps the greatest problem.

In the event of wide agreement on debt cancellation it will be necessary to find new money to pay for it. The G7 communiqué discusses various ways whereby money will be raised, including global taxes and increased ODA. However, there are, seemingly, no specific measures agreed to by the G7 at present that guarantee the resources needed. It certainly seems wrong that the next in the queue for development assistance should pay for the special measures for cancelling the debt of others, just as other borrowers may pay more if a loan is written off by a commercial bank. We do not wish to see the international financial institutions unable to exercise their function through a dilution of their resources. In particular, some of the multilateral development banks could be significantly affected by debt cancellation. This is a far more serious problem than usually claimed by proponents of debt cancellation.

In our debt paper it is clearly set out that it should be the wealthy states that pay for it, on a fair burden sharing basis. We accept that Ireland would have to play a part in this process through participation in agreed action relating to the impact on bodies of which it has membership. How this works depends on the plans to be adopted. In theory the IMF could, with full agreement, sell some of its gold and the World Bank could use its reserves to cover the cost of some debt relief. That might, however, reduce the resources the two institutions have to assist other poor and also middle income countries which are not particularly wealthy. Half the world's ODA already comes from the European Union. While there are 184 members of the World Bank and the IMF, there are far fewer in the potential donor category. There are, for example, only about 40 states, including Ireland, out of the 184 members which contribute to the World Bank's IDA facility, aimed at the poorer states. That is roughly the potential donor pool available to pay for debt relief.

Whatever about Ireland, not all of those countries may now be in a position to fully contribute to debt relief programmes, for good or for bad reasons. This is particularly the case as regards states subject to restrictions on them increasing their public expenditure under measures such as the Stability and Growth Pact. Proportionately the largest IDA support comes from the smallest EU states with substantial ODA engagements, the Nordics, the Dutch, the Irish and Luxembourg. Proportionately less comes from the large states such as the USA and Japan, which have low or declining relative ODA engagements. I note this morning, however, that the USA in its most recent budget announcement, yesterday, increased its commitment to international aid, which is welcome.

There is, therefore, a significant problem in finding sufficient willing donors to meet the cost to the IFIs of debts foregone, unless such a programme is very limited in scope. There is much to do in agreeing a strategy at the G7 level initially and then more widely finding other donors.

What happens afterwards? Some plans are not specific about the future resources to be freed up, leaving it entirely to the beneficiaries to decide how the money will be used that becomes available. They can spend it on armoured cars or on child health. Others suggest links to spending on specific projects, diseases such as AIDS or malaria, or link continued participation to meeting certain standards particularly in the area of governance or in respect of human rights.

I sympathise with the Chairman on the death of his uncle whom I knew and who was a charming man. I also thank Mr. Bradshaw for his presentation.

A comprehensive response to the issue of debt has to come from an integrated vision of the current position of the poorest countries, which includes not just debt but trade and aid. The fact of the matter is that many of the commitments now being made are done so out of sums that were previously committed. This is a real difficulty. Aid has been falling for ten years. If we take the aid-trade-debt corridor, less than €19 billion goes towards the south, while about €39 billion goes north. If we are creating permanent inequality through unfair trade and if we do not deliver on the Doha round, we will make the circumstances on the ground worse for the poorest countries. This sub-committee would provide an important function if it decided to prioritise the monitoring of the sums that have been pledged for the achievement of the eight millennium development goals in September 2000. The HIV-AIDS element of those development goals is somewhere around 40% of what was pledged.

Mr. Bradshaw has also drawn our attention to something else. This is the need for accountability not just from the poorer nations, but also from the countries that are making pledges. The HIV-AIDS component of the eight millennium development goals is at less than half of what is needed to achieve the target by 2015. Other aims include universal primary education by 2015 and they are all receiving less than the pledges made. There is an issue here of bad faith. In fairness, Irish aid is untied. However, a great proportion of the aid promised by other countries is very heavily tied. It distorts the indigenous economy and also represents a form of hidden exports. It frequently includes matters that are very deeply damaging to the relationship between developed countries and the wider world.

However, I do not want to seize the positive moment that exists. If the communiqué from the G7 did not go as far as many of us wanted on debt cancellation, it nevertheless creates an atmosphere and if our resources are put into an analysis of the debt at this time, then very significant gains can be made. It is nearly quarter of a century since I looked at this issue of debt and odious debt. In 1981-82 in Nicaragua, I recall the then Government discussing the burden that was placed on people, who were trying to construct a post-dictatorship society, by being required to pay the debts of the Somoza family. Look at where those debts went. Here I am 25 years later and I get lectures on poor African countries who do not know how to use the aid that they receive. Part of the money allocated by the international financial institutions to the Somoza family was spent in Florida. It was regularly used as seed money for the international drug industry. However, we will move on.

I agree with Mr. Bradshaw on the concept of odious debt. We should take the entire debt profile and break it into its different categories. The US always uses gross figures for its aid as it is political to do so. Its aid is at 0.12% of GNP. It is therefore at the bottom of the list. The Bush Administration accompanies its gross figure announcement with the statement that it cannot support Gordon Brown's initiative because it feels that civil society must be reformed before we can safely speak of initiatives. What about the accountancy that gave us Enron and other funds and that destroyed the pension funds of millions of workers? What if that was put in as a conditionality by the international community? There would probably be outrage. I am not convinced by that American argument as it is specious. We are all in favour of civil society reform and accountable economics.

How many countries in Africa are spending more on debt service in 2005 than they are on the combined health and education budget? I have done my sums on that and there is an achievable issue. Let us take the example of the HIPC a few years ago and what happened to them. They have slipped back into indebtedness and in some cases are looking forward to even greater indebtedness. There is a point that is achievable. No country which is in that category should be spending more on debt service than the combined health and education budget. Where initiatives have been established in countries for health, education and necessary basic infrastructure, it is possible to construct macro-economic schemes for them. That is where we should look at the issue. If the sustainability of the debt is incapable within three or four years, then that is the case for debt cancellation. It is not the case for debt rescheduling. Someone in the Dáil who does not even have time for economics could still identify countries that are appropriate to fill that category. I saw a piece in the newspaper yesterday about the change in succession of a small poor African country. The suggestion that one can mock the manner of succession in an African country and say that we were going to wait to address the issue of debt until the countries have reformed themselves into something that resembles us is to condemn these countries. There is a deep cultural, near racist bias at its base. I find that unacceptable.

I want to respond to Mr. Bradshaw's comments on the Madrid conference. I looked at the pledges at the conference and I entirely agree with him. A figure of €33 billion was announced in aid out of €127 billion which was needed in reality. However, following the Madrid conference, Falluja was razed to the ground only for contracts to rebuild it to go to private contractors, provided one was registered in the United States. It is an absolute scandal that cities were razed to the ground following the international conference on reconstruction.

I will refer to the debt issue in the context of the tsunami. The sub-committee should have had an earlier report in regard to what is being pledged to the UN special estimate on south-east Asia and what is needed. The assessment of the United Nations Secretary General is that approximately 30% of the much publicised pledges are available, and less hard cash. We are not talking about an auction in moral superiority. I am 20 years in the Dáil and can see that the fault in this, even in Ireland, is a kind of thinking that is not linked up.

Last year, we were close to getting the officials responsible for finance, trade and industry and those involved in development to meet regularly to achieve an integrated approach to the issues arising in regard to aid, trade and debt. However, we are far from having an integrated approach. In the Dáil, for example, we need a debate on the statements made by and to the IMF on our behalf. We need more openness and transparency.

These are not just academic matters. The Irish public and publics all over the world run faster with their sympathy for what they see on television, which is always a good thing. However, to draw an important conclusion from that, the public must be told that what is pledged must arrive, and that this must be additional and must not interfere with the attainment of the eight world millennium development goals. The public must begin to move in an evolutionary sense to a point past the present neoliberal economic model.

I lectured on monetary economics when I was 26 years old and I am delighted there is a return to interest in gold reserves; I thought it had gone like my youth and that no-one would talk about gold reserves any more. I remember explaining the Kuwait gap and that kind of thing. With regard to the revaluation of the IMF's gold reserve, which was used already in regard to an arrangement between Brazil and Mexico, there lies a wonderful opportunity of raising new net and additional funds which could begin at the bottom category of the most vulnerable indebted countries and move its way up. However, I warn against the real opposition, which comes not particularly from the Department of Finance but from its colleagues internationally which cling to the shreds of the neoliberal model.

I was once illiterate in economics but know that after the Second World War we lived through several decades of Keynesianism. This was followed by decades of tragedy, influenced by Friederich von Hayek and others in the 1980s, resulting in a gross, crude individualism that distorted the subject. At the end of Keynesianism, intervention had given us health and security, concepts of citizenship, good education and so forth. However, the countries that need aid, trade and debt relief are being refused anything like a Keynesian moment, and are obstructed by the requirements of the IMF in constructing their economies. They are under pressure from the WTO to take imports that are totally in conflict with their capacity to do so — rice is a good example in this regard. While I am supposed to be talking about relieving debt, I know that the right to have a chicken farm in some of the countries I visited in Africa is regarded as being in breach of WTO rules. This highlights the case for having an integrated approach to aid, trade and debt.

I do not want to go on without saying something positive, namely, the Government should lend its assistance to driving the Gordon Brown initiative, even if the United States is not involved. The Government should make specific proposals for opening a new transparency charter in regard to the IMF publishing its papers. It is important the Government is not hesitant on the basis that because it is not owed debt it is any way precluded from having an opinion. These are global moral and economic issues.

An offensive piece of rubbish was published in one of the newspapers yesterday — I do not want to mention the author's name — concerning what happens when debt relief is provided. Debt relief works. For example, I have given a suggestion in regard to the concept of sustainable debt and we can point to the achievement of universal primary education, water irrigation schemes or infrastructural schemes.

Let us have an end to the neo-racist prejudice, based on ignorance, that regularly suggests that if debt relief was granted it would be abused. I am not required to justify undemocratic regimes in Africa or Asia. After 20 years of involvement in this field, I can state that the international monetary institutions found it very easy to lend to dictators and authoritarian and military regimes, and then to go after the post-dictatorship societies for the repayment of those funds. The region that provides the best in-your-face examples of this process is Latin America.

One can turn the latest version of this argument around to state that Africa is inherently unsuited to a democracy model, and many of the colonial countries state they know best because they were there. This must stop. Debt relief will work. It can bring major change in regard to the most basic conditions such as child survival. Some 19,000 children per day would have survived if 1% of the funds of seven African countries had been shifted from debt service to health expenditure. How can this ever be justified? Ignoramuses write articles stating that the money will be spent on banjoes, white uniforms and braid etc. which would be bought in the western world.

Debt relief will work but we need clarity on the distinction between debt cancellation and debt rescheduling. The statements made post tsunami in regard to the debt component of the response showed how confused is this distinction. Debt rescheduling in a society that has lost all its infrastructure is totally inappropriate. We are intellectually challenged on this. While there are cases where debt rescheduling is appropriate, I do not accept the argument that it is intellectually impossible to distinguish where debt cancellation or debt rescheduling is appropriate.

With regard to the new conditions, there is need for reform in the general relationship between debtors and creditors in regard to the procedures and transparency of the existing creditor dominated relationships in the context of debt and the Paris Club. With regard to the HIPC countries, the conditions accepted led to seven of the 14 countries qualifying. We need to ask why this was so and reconsider the crudity of the criteria used. Uganda has a debt that amounts to 250% of its exports. Ethiopia, where matters are deteriorating as we speak, has a debt burden of 200% of its total exports. This points to the need to return to the HIPC initiative and to put a better system in place.

A reform programme that is too strict, and not matched by a generous debt cancellation and restructuring programme, may make the emergence of a new economic entity impossible. From an academic standpoint, if ever there were a continent that could benefit immediately from a new type of economic theory, it is Latin America in regard to classical Keynesianism. For many of the African economies, neo-Keynesianism would bring about the desired economic structures.

However, in most of the heavily indebted countries in Africa, little less than direct state intervention and the allowance for that in every programme and the cancellation of debt, which will enable sums to be spent on direct provision in health and education, are probably the only means of achieving this. In Benin, for example, 43% of debt relief was spent on the hiring of teachers. There is a major difference between a country that spends almost half of what it receives in debt relief on hiring teachers and what one might read in a column about black, ignorant Africa and its oppressive military dictators.

The time has come for many of us who have been involved in this area for a long time to simply call a halt to the type of statements that suggest, for example, that aid can be increased but there is no guarantee it will be spent properly, or that better trade practices cannot be allowed without the world moving into a deep recession. What about the economy that has the largest deficit in the history of the world and its effect on the global economy? We will accept no lectures from that side.

This is the best possible moment to achieve everything we desire on the issue of debt. People have been stirred by the use of television to show the devastation suffered by five countries in the recent tsunami. I was in Somalia at the time of the famine, a fortnight before the former President, Mary Robinson, arrived there. Representatives of the international community wanted me to lift starving children in my arms in order that they would get a shot. Afterwards, however, everyone walked away from Somalia.

A new and sustained approach is needed. The Department of Finance should come out and openly present itself as an innovator, strongly supporting Mr. Gordon Brown and ignoring any suggestion that the foot-dragging by the United States — which contributes 0.12% of GDP in overseas development aid — on this issue requires any support from us. We should stop this nonsense of reeling out figures in the Dáil and Seanad or in committees such as this. We are contributing 0.42% of gross national income. I hope we get to 0.7%, as we promised, but I do not want to hear any more of these gross figures. These figures are used by those countries which wish to conceal that they are spending so little — 0.12%, for example — on overseas aid.

The combined NGOs have produced a very good paper, which shows in one of its appendices the precise annual cost to donors to 2015 in regard to the consequences of debt relief, and the annual cost per capita. This is the approach we must take and I am hopeful because there is a positive atmosphere internationally in this regard. I wish the Department of Finance well in its attempts to break away from the club and opt for a radical innovation in supporting debt relief by issuing regular statements and seeking debates in the Dáil. The Department will have my support for all that. I thank Mr. Bradshaw for his very good presentation. Now is the time for us to take this issue seriously.

It is easy and pleasant to agree with everything Deputy Michael Higgins has said.

It is not always worthwhile to follow Deputy Michael Higgins because he covers these issues so well. However, I would like to raise some points with Mr. Bradshaw.

When Ireland is represented at meetings of the IMF, World Bank and other bodies, does the question ever arise as to whether many of these countries will ever have the capacity to pay back their debt? Are we essentially attempting to extract blood out of turnips into the indefinite future? Leaving aside humanitarian and other such considerations, there seems to be some degree of determination to contend that sovereign countries can never be so poor as to be unable to pay their debts. I would be pleased to have it accepted that there are some countries which cannot, for whatever reason, repay their debts.

When the HIPC initiative, with all its extraordinary limitations, is implemented, conditions will be attached. These conditions relate to such issues as a reduced public provision of what we regard as public services, as well as conditions relating to the requirement of some user contribution for such services as basic education, water and so on. Mr. Bradshaw quoted a figure of $835 per annum as the threshold for some forms of debt relief.

Are any of these governments which are obliged to reduce provision for education and water services ever told they must reduce their armaments budget, bearing in mind that most of those armaments are purchased from the countries that are so reluctant to alleviate their debts? I have never seen evidence of the same rigidity and determination on the part of the various donor agencies to deal with excessive expenditure on armaments as there is in regard to what is perceived as excessive expenditure on service provision. Has Ireland ever taken a different position on this issue?

It seems to be an extraordinarily fudged morality which denies, for instance, that the former dictator of Zaire was kept in munificent luxury on the back of aid that was given as lending to his country but which became his private fortune. The misfortune of the people of that country is that when they got rid of him, this became a burden for them to pay. That a corporation governed by company law in this country may become insolvent is a risk taken by its creditors and those with whom it trades. There seems to have been no shared risk in the lender-borrower relationship in all of this debt. I have never seen such cast-iron lending in any commercial transaction.

Much of this was originally private debt that was loaned by private banks. Without any hesitation, the international community accepted a transfer of that debt from the banks to various international lending agencies. That is the version presented to me by many people. Mr. Bradshaw can explain where I am wrong. I would like to know whether the transfer of debt from one agency to another involved any cost to the taxpayers of the developed countries. It is worthwhile remembering that debt was accumulated because of the 1970s oil crisis. The huge amount of money accumulating in oil rich countries had to go somewhere. That is not the only reason in that there was also malgovernance etc.

Why do we only have huge concerns about quality of governance when dealing with vulnerable countries? The decision to wipe out approximately $30 billion of debt owed by Iraq, a country effectively without a government, is irreconcilable with the logic of the international position and indeed with Mr. Bradshaw's position. That was a one-off occurrence, done without any of the apparent need for proper consultation, structure and accountability. It was just gone like that. It is perhaps not fair to raise the question with Mr. Bradshaw, but is debt ultimately a political issue dressed up in the language of economics and international finance? Is it ultimately a political decision rather than one with financial and economic ramifications? Is the political consequence of debt elimination the real cause of resistance? It seems the logic of the other position is gone.

In terms of where and how debt should be paid, why is the Department of Finance so opposed to the concept of a Tobin tax? We are told the international community is working extremely hard to control the flow of money that would be of use to international terrorism and the drugs trade. This means the international community is now presumably developing capacity to monitor all of this speculative money to ensure none of it goes towards terrorism or drugs. If we have developed the capacity to monitor that in such detail that we can deal with terrorism and drugs, we therefore have sufficient information to be able to impose the very modest proposals involved in the Tobin tax. The biggest objection publicly raised is that it would be difficult to enforce. We either have sufficient knowledge to deal with terrorism, drugs or illegal arms or we do not. If we do not, then we cannot deal with terrorism and need to learn more. If we know enough to deal with terrorism, we know enough to be able to impose the modest suggestions of the Tobin tax.

I thank Mr. Bradshaw for coming here. He could think of better places to be than here listening to myself and Deputy Michael Higgins commenting on what he has said. However, it is welcome and useful dialogue.

I thank the Senator and Deputy Higgins. I will ask Mr. Bradshaw to reply following my comments, before asking Ms Slattery to make her submission.

I agree with my parliamentary colleagues. Should debt relief be conditional at all, or should the only condition be poverty reduction? In the case of Tanzania, where the condition on some of the overseas aid was that the water system would be privatised, the unfortunate citizen or consumer ended up getting a worse deal than they would have otherwise.

I emphasise the point made so eloquently by Deputy Michael Higgins that debt relief does work. It has worked in Tanzania in affording public primary education to 2 million children. We must accept it works, and that is what we should be doing. Following the tsunami disaster, rich countries came under pressure from the media, rather than politicians, to cancel debt. They cancelled debt for 12 months and possibly longer.

Would Mr. Bradshaw agree it is absolutely vital to link debt relief to increasing aid wherever the money comes from? It should not impact on current budgets but should take some other form, such as the sale of IMF gold and the reform of trade. I would like to hear his observations.

Mr. Bradshaw

I thank the Chairman and members for their remarks. I will not try to answer all of the questions. Some of them are appropriate to a foreign affairs committee and concern other states and governments rather than the Department of Finance and its humble efforts to rule the world from Merrion Street. I will make an educated guess that some of the remarks were made in the direction of a national newspaper and will not answer them.

With regard to issues of aid, trade and overseas development, we never stated in our debt paper that debt cancellation alone is the only way. The Department has always accepted fundamental changes to the world economic order are needed in the areas of trade, overseas development and good governance. Those are the points Ireland has made in all international fora in which we have participated, such as the economic committee of the United Nations, the institutions of the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European Union. It is not something to which I have any great difficulty in signing up. The Department of Finance has no specific function with regard to matters of trade which might not be to the taste of Deputies or Senators.

Regarding the issue of openness and transparency, the Department of Finance produces an annual report on our participation in the World Bank and IMF, which receives practically zero attention from the unsuspecting Irish public. These documents have been published and are available for a number of years. It costs us money and we are now going to publish them in two languages instead of one. I am sure Deputy Higgins will be delighted about this. However, it costs us money and we would like someone to read them. If you like what is in them, please write and tell us. If you do not like what you read, you can write and tell us that also. Unfortunately, only those heavily involved in NGOs tend to read these documents. They comprehensively set out what Ireland has stated in international fora.

Yes, we do make the point about issues such as the Deputies have mentioned. Senator Ryan mentioned the issue of where the money should go. We favour it going on health care and women's education, for example, rather than armaments and presidential palaces, as was implied. That raises the issue of how much one state can impose on another state's public expenditure choices. There are various degrees of democratic participation among the 184 members of the World Bank and IMF. Switzerland has a referendum on everything, Ireland has the issue of e-voting——

Mr. Bradshaw is very brave to mention that.

Mr. Bradshaw

My Secretary General is at the Committee of Public Accounts discussing that issue this morning. It does raise problems in terms of the participation of agencies which may not have as fulsome a democracy as we are lucky to have in the international institutions. They are entitled to do certain things in the international institutions. If they are a member of the IMF, they are entitled to draw upon the resources of the IMF should they need to in a crisis. It might not have been that government which created the problem. It might not have been that particular parliamentarian who was minister for finance at the time. That raises big problems with regard to the issue of odious debt which was well ventilated earlier.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins mentioned John Maynard Keynes and I must remind him that along with Harry Dexter White, he was one of the major figures involved in the construction of the IMF and World Bank. I am not sure if the Deputy is happy with Keynes's performance in that regard.

It was a very good one. I will return to it for a moment if I may. They were development institutions and they reported to the Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations with responsibility for development. It is interesting how they were spun away to be responsible only to their own shareholders without an explanation to the international political community. That is a significant difference. Few people know — I am delighted that Mr. Bradshaw mentioned it — that both of the Bretton Woods institutions were originally development institutions which were spun away into this unaccountable structure. They became international economic instruments without political or social accountability. This is the major debate. This is a great opening for the Irish Department of Finance when it is in the midst of running the world.

Mr. Bradshaw

I shared many of the views expressed earlier by the Deputy, but the institutions are accountable to their shareholders. Their shareholders are generally the governors of the central banks or the ministers for finance of the member states, most of whom are not unaccountable in their own parliaments and in their own processes. Unfortunately some still have blinkers.

In general, concerning the issue of private debt mentioned by Senator Ryan in particular, quite a lot of the debt is to the private sector in the form of private individuals and international banks. We do not believe that much is owed to Irish individuals. Again, the Department of Finance has no involvement regarding the issue of private debt or loans. We are only involved through the institutions of which we are members.

Regarding the issue of aid and flows of foreign development investment, we note that the increase in commodity prices has steered quite a lot of money away from Africa in past oil crises. Present oil prices are likely to be doing the same, which may intensify the difficulties faced.

Does Africa receive about 1% of global foreign direct investment? When I last looked at the South African NEPAD figures, the outflows from South Africa greatly exceeded the inflow of foreign direct investment.

Mr. Bradshaw

Yes.

It led me to ask a question which caused great irritation to Kader Asmal, a former colleague of mine. He referred to me as an old unreconstructed lefty for holding the view that NEPAD might not be all it was purported to be for Africa.

Only one of those words was true.

I was quite shocked to see the deteriorating situation regarding foreign direct investment in Africa, including South Africa, which is a significant problem.

Mr. Bradshaw

The Deputy is correct. In general, Africa has not been a beneficiary of foreign direct investment in recent years. In fact, quite a lot of revenue flows are moving in the opposite direction, not least owing to commodity prices moving against Africa in many areas.

Senator Ryan asked about Tobin tax and whether these flows are measurable. It will be appreciated that foreign international flows are rather hard to measure. If we knew how much was being smuggled, it might help us to know how much is being paid.

We cannot control international terrorist money transfers.

Mr. Bradshaw

Money laundering is controlled through measures such as control of opening bank accounts, presentation of identification, electronic interception of communications and things the Senator might not be so keen on. It is not controlled by the routine monitoring of the huge numbers of vast financial transactions that pass between countries. Some of these financial flows are entirely benign. For example, in future, a payment made by an Irish operation in Waterford to cover the medical bills of Americans might be taxed. It might not be exactly what one thinks the Tobin tax is supposed to touch but may in fact so do. The G7 group is still working on this issue. The committee is probably aware that President Chirac has suggested certain taxes on aviation fuel and might also be aware of the measures set out in the Landau report. In the months ahead, these issues will continue to be discussed at EU and international level.

The Chairman asked at the end of his speech whether debt relief should be conditional and the answer is yes. I do not think there is unlimited money to be given to everybody. One could ask whether the money should be given to every government in all circumstances. One must say it is probable that whereas there are poor people in the worst-run countries of the world who need the money, co-operating with these governments is a dangerous thing to do. I must say this although it is not my responsibility and has nothing to do with my Department. There may be some countries which are so far beyond the pale that they cannot be assisted at present. In the future, they may need further assistance or basic humanitarian aid. One may not be able to guarantee that debt relief given to such countries would go to those who needed it. These are political calls outside my competence.

I asked Mr. Bradshaw if it is the view of the international agencies that all these countries can afford to pay their debt. Do they not accept that some of them——

Mr. Bradshaw

No, I think it is increasingly the case that, due to the efforts of people like ourselves who have raised the issue of debt and sustainability, more people are aware that it is not possible to pay and maintain the debts. The difficulty is, what does one do? Who is going to pay the shortfall? How long does one keep this corrective regime running? Is it a temporary measure?

How long does one continue extracting funds from countries that we apparently accept cannot pay?

Mr. Bradshaw

One must return to the premise on which the World Bank and IMF were established. The funds of the World Bank and IMF are the funds of the shareholders. In other words, they are the funds of the Irish taxpayer lent to country X or Y and if, at the end of the day, country X or Y does not pay the money back, we must pick up the shortfall. The problem will not be resolved by the good fairy or a magic wand but by the Irish taxpayer.

We have more than recovered the debt in trade anyway.

Is it not true that in virtually all these countries, the total volume of the repayments, including interest, is a multiple of the capital they originally borrowed?

Mr. Bradshaw

No, not necessarily. It depends on what countries one is talking about.

Is it true in many cases?

Mr. Bradshaw

Many people have done very well out of their participation in World Bank loans, including ourselves in the past, as well as countries of east Asia.

Thirty years ago, I built an entire laboratory with World Bank funds. It was very successful. This is why we have a big pharmaceutical industry in Cork.

Mr. Bradshaw

I am delighted to hear it. I hope the Senator is not coming back looking for more World Bank funds.

Any time the bank wants to offer them.

Mr. Bradshaw

The Senator would no longer be eligible to get the funds. We will be sending the money to Africa. It is a problem that, with some exceptions, Africa is not doing well under any form of development aid assistance or in its participation in any programme.

Perhaps we could move on to Ms Slattery please.

Ms Paula Slattery

The approach of the Department of Foreign Affairs to the question of debt is set out in the strategy paper of 2002 to which Mr. Bradshaw referred earlier and which was jointly developed and agreed between our two Departments. I do not need to add a great deal to what Mr. Bradshaw has said on the general question of debt.

Viewing the question from the perspective of development co-operation, we believe grant aid is the most effective form of international development aid. Ireland, from the beginning, has never lent to developing countries and, consequently, is not a creditor. Both we and the Minister for Foreign Affairs are very concerned about some of the points made by the committee, particularly regarding the principle of additionality. This principle means that resources made available now and in recent years for debt relief, either to individual countries or through multilateral institutions, should be made in addition to aid already committed for general development purposes. This point was also made in relation to the tsunami and this is something the Minister would wholeheartedly endorse.

We are particularly concerned about the future sustainability of the debts that low income countries might incur. Some of these countries' past borrowing was unsustainable and we are anxious to ensure this situation does not recur. While we recognise that all countries need to borrow, we would be concerned to ensure that countries do not borrow beyond their means in the future. In certain cases, that might imply that they would have a shortfall in revenue in the coming years. This question must be addressed by the international community.

The Department of Foreign Affairs's development co-operation programme focuses on African countries and certain selected programme countries where we work. Debt has been a serious problem for some of these countries. When we consider how to allocate resources available for development co-operation, we must consider whether money would be better spent in relieving debt or directly supporting other public service activities. These decisions have to be made from year to year.

Finally, we must heed the concern expressed by Mr. Bradshaw about the World Bank. The bank would point out that its calculations, like all banks, are based on cash flowing out to borrowers and, in due course, being repaid. It has to be assured of revenues from some sources, if not from initial borrowers, if it is to maintain its existing level of activity, which has generally been considered to be increasingly beneficial for developing countries.

I presume the British proposal related to paying the debts owed to the World Bank by the African countries, I think it was part of Chancellor Gordon Brown's proposal.

Mr. Bradshaw

So many proposals put forward by Chancellor Gordon Brown are in circulation at present that perhaps it would do no harm to recap. The UK has proposed measures relating to the selling of gold by the International Monetary Fund. The UK has proposed an international finance facility and has unilaterally made promises to meet debt payments in respect of certain African countries. This will be done as part of the UK's overseas aid commitment. Chancellor Brown is working to increase overseas aid through the commission for Africa and other measures. There are many UK initiatives that are very well-aimed, particularly relating to the problems of Africa.

I would like to make a practical suggestion to Ms Slattery. It would be valuable, given the current media atmosphere, if Development Cooperation Ireland made documentaries on areas in Africa where the cancellation of debt relief has led to the hiring of primary teachers and the expansion of primary education. Documentaries could be made on areas where irrigation schemes have worked and where women's projects and new forms of rural economy have come about. There is a real problem with the way the media portrays Africa as being inherently ungovernable and corrupt. Positive initiatives must be taken to provide concrete evidence of the positive results of debt relief and cancellation. I would prefer if there was an opportunity for exchanges involving new young scholars who are part of the network of African economists. These scholars are attempting to build indigenous sustainable development strategies that come out of the needs of different African countries.

One non-governmental organisation raised the very difficult question of whether we should withdraw aid for certain projects until recipient governments meet our criteria. If our money goes straight into, for example, the provision of primary education, everyone should be satisfied. However, the public needs to see concrete evidence of how the money is being spent.

I asked the question about foreign direct investment in Africa very deliberately. All international economic indicators show that the world has abandoned Africa. I would like to make it clear, in case it is ever recorded that I am hostile to initiatives like the ones proposed relating to the NEPAD proposals for Africa, that my problem with NEPAD relates to how it came to be proposed. If one takes the $1 or $2 a day survival countries, approximately 77 cents of the dollar is spent on survival. However, these grandiose plans, including NEPAD, suggest that there was a 12% deficiency in savings, that people are supposed to produce the seed money for the new initiative from the gap between the dollar and the 77 cents. It is nonsense to suggest that out of 23 cents, 12 or 15 cents can serve as the basis for the new African economic transformation. These grandiose plans, including NEPAD, suggest there is a 12% efficiency in savings and that people are supposed to produce seed money of 12 or 15 cent for the new African economic transformation initiative from the gap between the dollar and the 77 cent. This is nonsense. We must do something about the positive achievements and prospects for Africa and the benefits for it of debt cancellation and reform of the civil society.

I support DCI's raising of its staff complement to what was indicated in its original report. It is has approximately 28% of its staffing equivalent in comparison with other DCI divisions in European countries. This figure should be increased. There should be recruitment of people instead of comments about the deficiencies in the civil society and economic dependency. There should be a system that allows people to work in these areas. When I visited Lesotho for the first time, what I saw there was accountancy firms in many cases. They thought they were doing great work but they could have benefited from some political scientists, social scientists and socially minded economists.

Ms Slattery

I draw the committee's attention to the first of a series of programmes on RTE at 10.15 p.m. It is about development co-operation in Ireland and abroad. It may not respond directly to the questions Deputy Michael D. Higgins raised but it is our 2005 contribution towards improving the awareness and understanding of our work and involving the public who are the supporters of this activity in the aims and objectives of the development co-operation programme.

Regarding the documentaries spoken of, I remember travelling with a Wexford hurling team to Lanzarote. A young player I sat beside told me he was an engineer and I asked him if he ever felt like working in the Third World. He said he would love to but did not know who he would apply to. I have had several past pupils approach me since then who would like to give voluntary efforts to poorer countries. I have never seen an advertisement on television advising these people on where they should go to apply. Perhaps DCI could do something along those lines.

On another point, I discovered to my horror during a discussion at another Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs meeting that much of the EU overseas aid is never claimed. It is a result of the bureaucracy surrounding the aid and I asked at that time whether it would be possible for DCI to educate the victims of poverty in how to claim this money, be they the government or the individuals, and whether Ireland has a role to play in making that money available.

Do we influence the type of education taught when we give aid, be it drilling for water or maintaining water pumps? I believe vocational education played an immense role in rural Ireland. As time passed there were agricultural instructors teaching in vocational schools who gave night classes and visited farms. Teachers of building construction or building instructors taught farmers and rural dwellers how to build on to their houses and later examined the work carried out.

Ms Slattery

We are conscious there is a fund of goodwill present that can be drawn on in the form of volunteerism and we are working on a strategy to enable us to do so. This is something that will enter the public realm quite soon. Consultations have already taken place on the matter.

Could the transition year in schools or time spent in universities be used to inform people?

Ms Slattery

I am not sufficiently briefed about that but we may return to it later this year. On the issue of aid that has not been claimed, I am aware that it occurs because the projects planned do not go ahead for one reason or another, such as the management committee not being satisfied by the plans.

Ireland participates in various programmes to develop the technical capacity of the receiving countries so that they are in a better position to develop and manage the types of projects we are discussing. The financing agency will not make the finance available unless it is clear that the project has been sufficiently thought out.

In each of our programme countries we have education advisers working as part our team. There is a need to ensure that the type of educational policies and programmes carried out are the ones designed by the countries themselves, otherwise it would be pointless. It would not be useful to impose an Irish model on an African model.

It would be as bad as the OECD trying to tell Ireland how to handle the universities.

Ms Slattery

It is difficult to make a comparison there. We are members of the OECD after all. There is the possibility of making available to the countries whatever expertise we have in the hope it could be useful to them.

I want to speak about the issue of the capacity to use development aid if debt is relieved, an issue raised by the Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development assistance. One of the tragic images seen by the public in the aftermath of the tsunami in Asia was not of poor people dependent on us but people who had lost their work. The extraordinary resilience of people is compelling. I have no problems about the need to be wary of governance in these countries but I am beginning to think that such legitimate concerns are an excuse rather than a reason for doing nothing. The peoples of these countries work and sums of money we would regard as trivial can transform how they live. What the public has seen will further confirm the view that both ODA and debt relief can and do work. We need to build on this.

Why would a bank or institution like the IMF, which is dedicated to the market, insist on valuing its gold reserves at a fraction of the market value? I am certain it would tell a person in any area that market testing was the right way to determine the worth of an item. Why does it reserve for itself the right to do differently?

Mr. Bradshaw

The role of gold in the international currency system is a long-standing and very backwards issue, and is one Deputy Higgins might like to discuss with me for quite a long while after this. The old Bretton Woods system was based on the role of gold. Consequently, gold had a disproportionate impact in the initial creation of the IMF and its early subscriptions. The rules were changed in the 1970s and the price of gold was fixed, but not by reference to market procedures. However, the gold is there. It is one thing to discuss the appropriate method of measuring its value, it is another to get rid of it. If one does, one will no longer be able to use it. Getting rid of it is not necessarily all positive. We know the gold is there and it is like the value of a building. If one sold Leinster House, it would need to be replaced. Incidentally, it will require near-unanimous agreement to deal with the gold issue. It is possible for large states to agree or not regarding gold.

As long as it does not end up relieving the US deficit.

Mr. Bradshaw

It would be very unwise of me to comment on whether the IMF needs to come to the assistance of the United States.

The deficit is now so huge that even the IMF's resources would not do much to it.

In the absence of any other business, I would like to express my sympathy to Senator Kitt and the Kitt family.

May I be associated with that? It was remiss of me not to say it earlier.

Thank you, Senator. Is Deputy Higgins aware that Fr. Kitt was associated with a famous football team in Wexford called Castletown? They still wear the maroon of Galway as a mark of respect.

On behalf of the committee, I again thank Mr. Bradshaw and Ms Slattery for attending.

The sub-committee adjourned at 1.31 p.m. sine die.
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