JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 May 2006

Ongoing Situation in Liberia: Presentation.

Chairman

The committee will receive two presentations today. The first will be from Senator Franklin Siakor on the current situation in Liberia and the second will be from Mr. Brendan Nolan, founder of Wingspread International, which provides humanitarian aid in Chad. As we have selected Liberia for a visit, it will be useful to receive an update.

I welcome Senator Franklin Siakor from Liberia and Mr. Joe Manning, honorary consul for Sierra Leone in Ireland. Senator Siakor has worked as a civil society activist in Liberia for more than a decade. During that time he helped found Development Education Network Liberia, DENL, an NGO which focuses on community leadership, training, peace-building and advocacy. DENL is a strong partner of Trócaire in Liberia. Mr. Mark Cumming and Ms Joanne McGarry of Trócaire are in the Visitors Gallery and are very welcome.

I advise witnesses that while members enjoy absolute privilege in respect of what they say before the committee, witnesses do not enjoy such privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature. I invite Senator Franklin Siakor to make his presentation.

Mr. Franklin Siakor

I thank members for welcoming me to speak to this honourable body. As a Senator from Liberia, I feel honoured by the welcome and I am happy to be here to say thanks to the people of Ireland for their support for my country in the field of humanitarian aid and for sending Irish troops to Liberia to help maintain the peace. Ireland's support has helped our country to survive, to come alive again. It has given us hope to begin to pull our country back together in order that its people can rebuild their lives.

I am here at the invitation of Trócaire to talk to people about my country and provide information on the progress we have made towards the re-establishment of government and in moving our country forward in order that more people in Ireland can know what is happening and where its troops are operating. I want to encourage the Irish people to stay with us as we go through these difficult times, trying to put our state back together. I also want to encourage members of the Irish public to think about private sector engagement with our country in order to help the process of economic recovery and the consolidation of peace. That is why I am here to interact and share with the Irish people.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Siakor.

Mr. Joe Manning

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it. It is significant that I am here on behalf of Sierra Leone and that Senator Franklin Siakor is here on behalf of Liberia because in the past 15 years the two countries have been inextricably and unfortunately linked. The war that started in Liberia spread to Sierra Leone and it is difficult to see one nation having peace without the other also having it. We are almost like twins, our futures are tied together. My presence is also significant because the Irish Government, through Irish Aid, has begun a significant involvement in Sierra Leone. We were here to address the committee two or three years ago and have come a long way since; we are deeply grateful for Ireland's involvement in Sierra Leone. Government involvement is the most significant aspect of development work: it is long-term and predictable in terms of the amount of aid that will be given.

There is a debate in Ireland on corrupt governments and how to deal with them. This debate has been too simplistic; it is not a straightforward issue. One cannot simply decide a government is corrupt and walk out on it. If that was the case — here I speak against myself — one might think twice about aiding Sierra Leone because all is not well in government circles. I can say this because it was said by the representatives of Sierra Leone when they came here.

We were in Sierra Leone about four weeks ago. I went as part of an official delegation headed by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan. He stood up to address the assembled masses and, more importantly, a number of politicians. They were prepared for him to make a speech they had often heard, criticising them for corruption, but he did not. Instead he pointed out that in Ireland there was a former Government Minister in prison on charges of corruption. He stated there were two commissions investigating corrupt payments to politicians. There was a gasp in the audience and he had their attention. He pointed out that corruption in government did not refer only to Africa, but that it was everywhere and the fight against it was constant. We are no different from them. He made his point and made it well.

Only governments can influence other governments and only governments can govern countries. One can have all the non-governmental organisations in the world. I was in Sierra Leone 30 years ago and the country worked; now it is a mess because of a failure of government. It will be a long and arduous journey to get the government right. It is a 20 year job; whether it is in Ethiopia, Uganda, Sierra Leone or Kenya, it is not a simple issue.

I support the work Irish Aid is doing. This work is being done with sensitivity and without wasting taxpayer's money. Some of the things that have been said about Irish Aid are unfair.

Chairman

Senator Siakor said in his contribution, as written on paper:

To conclude, I would like once again to thank the people and Government of Ireland for your humanitarian support for Liberia over the years and for sending troops to help keep the peace. Your aid to Liberia continues to contribute significantly to addressing the social impact of war and the roots of war. The civil crisis has escalated poverty in Liberia, displaced hundreds of people, eroded most people's livelihoods through loss of assets, made delivery of basic social services impossible through destruction of basis infrastructure and left the social fabric damaged by increasing mistrust and fear among the people and left the vast majority more impoverished. We are unable to put the Liberian state back together by ourselves. We are truly unable to recover economic asset bases without third party support.

The situation in Liberia is still unsettled. Security is still fragile. We encourage you to stay with us for a few more years. You have always been there for us. You have done well for us and continue to do well for us. That is why I am here to say thank you, to encourage you to continue and to suggest you add private sector investment to make the relationship mutually beneficial.

We are very much aware that Liberia has a population of some 3.5 million people. It is approximately the size of Ireland. Its gross domestic product per head of population is $700. That makes it one of the most disadvantaged and poorest countries in the world. In that sense I agree wholeheartedly that we need to stay there longer. I understand the Irish representative from the UN has been doing a very good job there and we look forward to a continuance of that work.

Deputy Allen

I thank both gentlemen for their attendance. Since the Senator is a political figure, one of my questions will be of a political nature. It relates to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, before which Mr. Charles Taylor will be one of the first to appear. Will other prominent figures from the past who have done major damage not only to Liberia but to neighbouring countries be brought before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

Perhaps Mr. Manning could outline the role of NGOs in Sierra Leone. I do not think we have been briefed on Sierra Leone.

Chairman

We have a briefing on Liberia but not on Sierra Leone.

Deputy Allen

Perhaps Mr. Manning would outline the level of involvement of NGOs in both countries.

Deputy M. Higgins

I also welcome Senator Siakor and Mr. Manning. I want to raise a few issues, in a positive way, let me emphasise. One practical question which I propose to ask about all countries from now on is in regard to the present and future supply of water, particularly to rural villages. It is an issue that will become more important. I will return to it in a moment.

While joining with Mr. Manning in welcoming the sums spent by Irish Aid, I want to ask a few questions that arise from the presentation. Liberia is resource rich but the people are poor. The situation there is similar to that in East Timor after independence. We discussed how we might be of assistance to East Timor in its negotiations with Australia on mineral resources, particularly oil and gas, an area in which such practical assistance would be valuable. I am concerned about the package of policies which the seconded personnel from the World Bank and United Nations agencies are bringing to Liberia. However, that is an issue for another day.

Work published in 1998 by Professor James Scott of Yale University was heavily critical, on an empirical basis, of World Bank initiatives. I am particularly concerned about the assumptions being made regarding the self-funding of projects which are entirely unrealistic given the level of income of both countries. The suggested commercialisation of anything associated with basic necessities and the privatisation of supply services is consistent with the World Bank's policies in Africa generally but would be as hopeless and disastrous as it has been in many other places in Africa. That statement is based on evidence.

The next issue I would like to address is how Ireland can and should provide assistance by way of personnel in the provision of social services. I am delighted there is a great deal of support on this issue. I make these comments to be positive and supportive. I am merely suggesting the exogenous interest in Liberia or Sierra Leone should require us to be careful about the models being employed in building the security and the transition measures required.

I referred to Professor Scott's works of 1997-98 published by Yale University Press which deal in the main with Asia and the destruction of the wisdom of small native producers, past survival point, and their activities by the imposition of models that are simply not suitable. I am not sure if Irish Aid is supplying international legal advice in regard to the suspension of exploitative and illegal international contracts by previous regimes. This is an area in which international assistance would be invaluable. It relates also to the construction of new agreements with multinational corporations on resource development. There will be an incredible temptation — little is necessary — to exploit something which is resource rich and people poor. For this reason, international legal assistance must be built into such agreements.

I draw the joint committee's attention in the ongoing and often not very informed generalised debate on corruption to a study undertaken by a Scandinavian professor, Professor Svendsen, who studied eight statements on corruption in Uganda which showed the provision of a free press reduced corruption in expenditure in the education sector from a figure of 86% in one five year period to 36% in the following five year period based only on publishing the transfers from state to regional to local areas. I again ask if that type of assistance in the development of an approximate and transparent press communications system is a proven and established mechanism for reducing corruption. It is useless for people to continually get on their boxes and speak about corruption if they are not willing to come forward with practical proposals for its reduction. I say this by way of being practical. I very much welcome the presentation and I wish the Liberian and Sierra Leone transition every success.

No doubt it will come about in the discussion in the trial of Mr. Taylor and others that to some extent this is the justice of the victor. The justice of the victor as a transition to a fully different kind of jurisprudence is very much better than impunity which has been so destructive in Africa.

Deputy T. Dempsey

I will be brief because Deputy Allen and Deputy Higgins have raised some of the issues I wished to raise. I welcome Senator Siakor and Mr. Manning to the joint committee. I wish to ask one brief question. I am aware of and familiar with the wonderful work of Irish Aid abroad and was privileged to witness it last week in Ethiopia. Is the delegation happy with the direction and the focus of the aid delivered? Should it be directed more towards education and perhaps less towards some other area? That is my question to Senator Siakor and Mr. Manning in their respective areas.

Deputy Durkan

I welcome both gentlemen. All of us here would have a common concern about the position in both areas. Our concern springs from the continuous strife and the resultant hunger, deprivation and human rights problems there. While our troops have been in Liberia for some time it is important to continue our overseas experience. It appears Ireland will be called upon to a greater extent in the future in regard to overseas placements of troops. We all support such placements. It has to be done and it is part and parcel of restoring some degree of respect for the state and law and order. It is a somewhat new departure from our point of view in the sense that it is tending towards peace enforcement rather than what we have experienced in the past.

Some of us have previously raised concerns about corruption. That is not what we are worried about. What I would worry about in regard to corruption and the allegations of corruption is that the donors would become discouraged and donor fatigue would set in. It is important that the delegation can reassure us and others that every effort is being made to combat this in so far as it can be done. There is an element of corruption in every country and no country is excepted. Where there is a dependence on donations from overseas, often sizeable ones, it is important that everything possible is done to ensure the position of the agencies and the NGOs involved is not undermined. Essentially, that is our main concern.

Chairman

Before handing back to the delegation I should mention that Ireland has participated in UNMIL since November 2003 and contributed two thirds of a quick reaction force. The other third was provided by Sweden. We have 426 personnel there and some other advisers and aides. We understand they have got on very well with the people and are doing a first-class job. Initially, they went into a very dangerous situation and they appear to have been able to stabilise matters. They were involved in the handing over of Charles Taylor to the special court in Sierra Leone. It is now requested that Mr. Taylor be taken before the International Criminal Court in the Netherlands. Irish personnel have had a deep involvement in Liberia and continue to do so. We would be interested to hear Senator Siakor's experience in that regard.

Mr. Siakor

The other key players in the war will eventually go before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Charles Taylor is currently in Sierra Leone and is charged with bearing the greatest responsibility for war crimes committed by the rebel forces in there. In Liberia, the peace agreement refers to a truth and reconciliation commission before which people can appear to explain what really happened. Once the truth is established in respect of a number of things that happened, those found to be responsible will be obliged to appear before some court at a later date. Discussions and debates are still ongoing as to how this process will proceed.

In the beginning, most people said that they did not want a war crimes court in Liberia because it would only open old wounds and create further conflict. However, with the handing over of the former president, Charles Taylor, to the war crimes court, even his supporters said that if he could go before the court, then it was fair enough for the others in the conflict to appear before it. The debate began to take on a new trend after the arrest of Charles Taylor and it is ongoing. The Liberian Government has not yet said anything final about how the process will proceed but a truth and reconciliation committee is preparing to start listening to the victims, to child soldiers or other soldiers to explain what happened in order that, over time, the truth can be established and people can be asked to answer for events that happened during the war.

Mr. Manning

I will take up some of the points raised. At present, three main Irish NGOs are operating in Sierra Leone, namely, Trócaire, Concern and Goal. They are doing terrific work, as they do everywhere, and are very highly regarded. Missionary groups such as the Holy Rosary Sisters and the Christian Brothers are also present, with some Holy Ghost Fathers.

The spend in Sierra Leone has increased from a starting point of approximately €2 million and the most recent announcement in respect of it was to the effect that it would rise to €14 million in the next two years. Involvement in Sierra Leone is, therefore, expanding quite dramatically.

We were also asked if we were happy with the focus of Irish aid. We are very happy. Discussions are taking place as to whether Sierra Leone will become a programme country. It is on the cards and if it happens the focus of Irish aid will change because then governments will interact with one another. That is a very significant step because it is the one way we can make real changes.

We in Ireland do not realise how high our reputation is abroad. When I was in Sierra Leone four weeks ago I was approached by a member of a government Minister's staff who wondered if I could influence the Irish Government in persuading the Scandinavians to come on board. They make large donations to the likes of Sierra Leone and they have a very enlightened aid programme. I asked why he did not approach the British on the issue as they are more significant than we are. He pointed out that while the British were doing fantastic work in Sierra Leone, they were doing so for historical reasons. He felt we were there because we felt we could do something, without our aid being tied. He suggested that Irish aid is very highly regarded in other countries and that our presence there was almost more significant than the amount we gave them because it sent a signal to other countries. We do not realise the important influence that we have.

On freedom of the press, I would say Sierra Leone would get about 70% if it were to sit an exam on the topic. It is there, it could be better, but it is far better than it was. There is quite a lively press there.

How can assistance be best achieved? Our institutions are the same size as those in Liberia and Sierra Leone and we have endured many of the problems that they have endured. Many Irish institutions could carry out meaningful work in those countries, for example FÁS and the Industrial Development Agency. They are starting to get involved there. Our educational institutions are of the same scale as those in Liberia and Sierra Leone. There can be linkages whereby personnel go for three months at a time. This is all being considered and it is being done.

The topic of donor fatigue has been mentioned. I think there is a real danger of this occurring because the situation has not been improving, particularly in Africa. If one considers the response to the tsunami two years ago, so much aid money flooded in that the agencies declared they had enough. There is a danger that unless improvements are seen to happen in African countries people will have had enough. We are in a time of plenty now in Ireland, but in five years' time budgets could come under pressure. Unless people feel they are getting value for money those budgets will be very vulnerable.

Deputy M. Higgins

We should ensure that boats licensed by the Irish Government desist from destructive fishing practices that imperil the livelihood of people with small craft in Africa. This is particularly relevant to some countries, including Mauritania, the illegally occupied Spanish Sahara and Liberia. Our reputation might be enhanced by Irish aid, but it is not enhanced by a totally unjustifiable international crime which effectively hoovers species of fish from under the noses of people relying on small wooden craft. This is something we should make representations on to see if it could desist.

Deputy Durkan

I support that also and not only due to the negative economic impact on the countries affected. It is also crazy, from the perspectives of environmental impact and conservation, to overfish to the extent of wiping out several species. There is no necessity to do this but it is happening because self-sufficient, self-serving factory ships are allowed to ply their way in places that could well do without their attention.

Chairman

It is necessary to examine EU policy in this context. While there is probably only one vessel from Ireland involved — it only recently arrived in the area — we should probably consider the matter and EU policy separately. It is from EU policy that the issue derives.

We thank the witnesses for attending. We were delighted to hear from Senator Siakor and Mr. Manning. Members have plans to visit the area, although it remains to be seen when we can do so. It is important to recognise that Liberia, Sierra Leone, Côte d'Ivoire and Guinea are neighbouring countries and that there are overlapping issues, especially when various groups of rebels move to and fro. We note that the witnesses want to see governments interacting and that they are correct to identify the importance of political representation and backing. Meetings at different political levels are very valuable.

A delegation from the committee travelled to Ethiopia last week and met the Foreign Affairs Minister and the Prime Minister. It was also permitted to meet members of the opposition who are imprisoned. There is no doubt that we can be helpful on the basis of our experience in Ireland in the development of policy and strategy directions. The countries we have been discussing are approximately the same size as Ireland, though in some cases the populations are larger. While we would like to help in any way possible, the message must also be sent, loud and clear, that the work which is under way is valuable and useful. We have always found that to be the case when we have visited various places. We have also found that people have been only too glad to implement the recommendations we have discussed.

I wish the witnesses a safe journey back home. The committee will make arrangements to visit in the very near future because we think to do so will prove quite valuable. We note the gratitude of the witnesses in respect of our involvement, their request that the private sector begin to engage and their recognition of the valuable work carried out by the Irish Army under the flag of the United Nations. We can all be very proud of what the Army has done and the relationships it has established with the people.

Sitting suspended at 2.59 p.m. and resumed at 3.02 p.m.