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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Overseas Development) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 May 2008

Global Poverty Eradication: Discussion with Dóchas.

It is a great pleasure to welcome Ms Helen Keogh, chairperson of Dóchas, and Mr. Hans Zomer, its director. Before we commence, I advise them that whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy absolute privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature.

Members of the sub-committee are familiar with Dóchas, the umbrella organisation of non-governmental organisations in Ireland. The aim, through the co-operative efforts of its members, is to contribute towards sustainable human development in a world where people are able to enjoy their rights and empowered to fulfil their needs. The interdepartmental committee on development was launched on 12 April 2007. Its purpose is to strengthen coherence in the Government's approach to development and make the best use of the expertise and skills available across the public service in Ireland's development aid programme.

I invite Ms Keogh to make her presentation. I will then open the discussion to members.

Ms Helen Keogh

I thank the Chairman. I am delighted to be here on this side of the chamber. It is also nice to see former colleagues. I am here with Mr. Zomer, the director of the secretariat of Dóchas. We very much welcome this opportunity to address the sub-committee on development policy coherence. During the years Irish overseas development NGOs have benefited hugely from the support of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and we are grateful for the opportunity to highlight the important steps being taken to bring about a whole-of-government approach to the fight against poverty and injustice. The sub-committee has a vital role to play in this regard as the emphasis is on overseas development.

Dóchas represents 39 Irish member organisations, supported by approximately 850,000 people - one in every five people in the country - for whom poverty eradication is a prime goal. As the national umbrella body of Irish overseas development NGOs, Dóchas co-ordinates with NGO colleagues across Europe which share our view that it is unacceptable to live in a world where one third of all people endure conditions of unbearable poverty. Ours is a passionate and committed constituency, one that can give shape to the Government's stated commitment to make the fight against poverty a central plank of Irish foreign policy.

For Dóchas members, it is important to note that the fight against poverty is not merely a matter of providing aid. We are proud of Ireland's record of generosity and professional development assistance, but we also know that aid alone cannot, and will not, bring an end to poverty in itself. Poverty will only truly become history if we put in place the mechanisms that allow people to live a life in dignity, and provide them with the opportunities to develop to their full potential.

Not only does poverty relate to a lack of food, or money, it also relates to a lack of control over one's life and resources. Poverty is not simply a matter of scarcity as it is the result of human interaction. Poverty is exclusion from social, economic and political processes that affect one's life.

Fighting poverty is not merely about providing people with the material benefits they lack but about promoting development. Development is about reversing poverty and inequality, increasing the choices and opportunities available to the poor and protecting their human rights. Development, therefore, is about more than aid.

We welcome the Government's recognition of this fundamental fact. We also acknowledge there is broad cross-party consensus on this issue, which is vital in this area. This is also featured explicitly in the White Paper on Irish Aid, and that is brought to life by the creation of, and the high-level representation at, the interdepartmental committee on development, IDCD. This is what we are present to discuss today.

The IDCD was created to ensure a broadly coherent approach to the objectives of our development co-operation programme. Development co-operation is now a central plank of Irish foreign policy but many areas of Government action have an impact on developing countries. With the help of Trinity College and the advisory board of Irish Aid, the IDCD is investigating which areas of Government policy could undermine the core aims of our aid programme.

We believe that under the leadership of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Peter Power, the IDCD can become one of the key forces for change and a vital instrument in determining Ireland's external policies.

Dóchas welcomes the political will that established the committee and the good groundwork done so far by the members, who are representatives of the 15 Departments. We are very encouraged by the committee's approach to date, which has been transparent, open and creative, and based on a genuine desire to engage in dialogue with all relevant stakeholders.

Our core message today is that, by setting up the IDCD, the Government has taken a very significant step in trying to enhance the impact of the Irish aid programme. It is a significant step, but not the final step. Bringing about a coherent approach to development, or, as we call it, "policy coherence for development", is not a technical fix that can be achieved by setting up a committee; it is a matter of achieving the right balance for developing countries in Irish politics and policy. It requires leadership, energy and persistence. It requires willingness to be a champion for the rights and needs of the millions of people who have no say in Ireland's or Europe's decision-making but who are profoundly affected by those decisions.

This leadership and energy must come from the Ministers in charge of the aid programme, but also from the Members of the Oireachtas. This sub-committee and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs can play a leading role in this regard.

Dóchas accepts - it would be foolish not to - that incoherence is inevitable in a democracy, and that development priorities will not win out in all cases. For all of us, the challenge is to minimise incoherence and its negative effects on the poor and developmental processes; mitigate the worst effects where incoherence is unavoidable; and to seek synergies and added value where they are to be found. Specifically, we are seeking political will, responsiveness, effectiveness, transparency and links to support decision-making.

On political will, if we want to promote development-friendly outcomes of Irish and European decision-making processes, we need to invest in them. We need to champion the cause of the poor in the face of sometimes forceful opposition.

On responsiveness, we need to put in place mechanisms by which people, be they citizens, politicians or NGOs, can bring areas of incoherence to the attention of decision-makers.

On effectiveness, any mechanisms and structures set up to promote policy coherence for development must be resourced and given a mandate to make a difference. Dóchas has carried out research in this area and has discussed examples of good practice with the IDCD.

On transparency, it is vital that the results of our analysis, and the nature of our competing demands, be discussed openly and democratically. This committee can play a vital role in this regard. We suggest that the Oireachtas host an annual debate about development, not focusing simply on the performance of Irish Aid but on Ireland's performance in general. At EU level, the Commission has recently started to produce annual policy coherence for development reports. There has been just one report so far but the process promises to be a useful one and could really help galvanise European political will to remove the impediments that hold back or adversely affect developing countries. To do the same in Ireland would be immensely valuable.

On links, it is imperative that the Oireachtas, through the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and, more explicitly, this sub-committee, be closely involved and associated with the debate on policy coherence. The newly created IDCD should be encouraged to engage with the committee and report thereto.

For the members of Dóchas, Ireland's commitment to development is crucial. We are proud of the results and effectiveness of Ireland's aid programme, but as aid practitioners we are acutely aware of our own limitations. For Ireland to make a genuine and lasting impact in the efforts to make poverty history, more is required than generosity and charity. The members of Dóchas have numerous suggestions to make on how this can be achieved. The IDCD, the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and this sub-committee are on our side in this regard.

For now, we would like to leave members with three main messages. First, through the creation of the IDCD, Ireland has taken a significant step to enhance its overall efforts to bring about an end to poverty. We must ensure the committee is given the mandate to do its work and that it is supported by a genuine political will to make a difference. Second, Dóchas and its members will support all initiatives aimed at enhancing Ireland's efforts in this regard. We will do this strongly and energetically, and we will do so on the basis of our experience, expertise and the support of our partners overseas, namely, those in the field. Third, the Oireachtas in general, and this committee in particular, has a crucial role to play, if this project is to succeed.

We thank the members for the opportunity to outline our views on this important issue and we wish them well in their work. We will be delighted to accept questions. As Mr. Hans Zomer has said nothing so far, I am sure he will be even more delighted than me.

From what I am told, Mr. Hans Zomer cannot be stopped sometimes. I am just kidding.

I thank Ms Helen Keogh for her presentation. It struck me that it is not only a matter of reaching the monetary aid target of 0.7% but of trying to persuade the world of the importance of eradicating poverty. Will the delegates elaborate on the measures independent of financial aid that need to be adopted by Ireland? How could this committee assist in encouraging their adoption?

I congratulate Deputy Peter Power on his becoming Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with special responsibility for overseas aid. He did a tremendous job as Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children, which was established recently. I wish him well as the chairman of the IDCD. I note that the committee operates at assistant secretary level. We are blessed with the types of civil servants we have, particularly at that level. I hope we can use them fully to produce results that will benefit the developing world and, in particular, help to eradicate poverty.

Ms Helen Keogh

If one were to sum up, one would say we do not want to give with one hand and take away with the other. This is the key to policy coherence. All Departments should development-proof policies in the same way as gender-proofing. It is not always possible to come out with the best result as far as the developing world is concerned. We would hope that we would at least mitigate in instances where policies may be considered harmful to the developing world.

Mr. Hans Zomer

We are grateful for the support we are getting from the Civil Service and the sub-committee. There is more that we can do than have a generous and effective aid programme. Ireland is a member state of the EU and the UN, and should take more of a leading role in those fora. Ireland is sometimes a bit too timid at international level. It is hard to know what issues Ireland is batting for in New York or in Geneva at the WTO rounds. We would like to see strong leadership from Ireland.

The benefits of strong leadership were shown this week with the cluster munitions agreement reached in Croke Park. This is a good example of policy coherence. Ireland took a leading role in bringing the process to bear in this agreement. It was not the Irish Aid programme that argued for a resolution on cluster munitions but the Defence Forces which saw the consequences of cluster bombs in countries in which they served. The Defence Forces argued that something had to be done. That is fantastic example of how as a nation when we pull ourselves together we can make a significant impact.

I am sure the sub-committee has been lobbied on the trade arrangement in the WTO Doha Round and the inconsistency of the EU position with it pushing through EPAs with African and Caribbean countries. Despite all the rhetoric about how wonderful we want to be as a development actor, we must bring about consistency in Ireland's position as a member of these international clubs.

Allies of Ireland are currently bombing parts of Somalia in the fight against terrorism. Ireland cannot say, in either a UN or EU role, that it has played a positive role in bringing peace to that country. The definition of anyone who is not government as a terrorist certainly does not help. These are inconsistencies which Ireland can address.

The cluster munitions conference is a good example of how Ireland, if it does something, does it well.

I welcome Dóchas and thank it for the presentation. There is cross-party support for its aims and initiatives.

With the downturn in the economy I am concerned that the 0.7% of GNP target for aid may be put on the long finger. Does Dóchas intend to launch a campaign to have it maintained? Having access to 850,000 people, it has a certain amount of power and could help to sway public opinion on this issue. If we are to continue the remarkable progress made in aid, we must ensure the target is reached.

Can Dóchas give an example of what resources it would require for research in policy coherence, the timescales and costs?

Ms Helen Keogh

We are conscious that we are entering more straitened economic times. We have campaigned long and hard for the 0.7% target. We trust the Government will keep to its commitment. If it were to slip in any way, we have a committed constituency of 850,000 people who are passionate about this. If we felt the need arose, we would campaign on it. One has to be an eternal optimist in politics. We will keep it under review.

There has been a positive public reaction to the Government's commitment. There would be huge disappointment if there were any attempts to renege on the promise. We do not see that happening in the foreseeable future. We are more concerned about ensuring that the amount spent on aid reflects the quality and impacts we desire. We look at ourselves as partners with Government.

Mr. Hans Zomer

We have examined several leading EU member states and how they have engaged with institutionalising policy coherence. Each country finds a system which suits its political and legal system. In Sweden and Finland, for example, they have introduced Bills to ensure coherence proofing of all legislation. In the Netherlands, a unit in its foreign affairs ministry has the mandate to receive all papers going to Cabinet ahead of meetings and scrutinise each and every proposal. It is a fantastic system. It is also based on a strong resourcing of parliamentary committees with a strong research capacity.

A budget would be a good way to start. The committee brings together senior civil servants but works exclusively with those resources. A budget should also include provision for communications. We have asked for a proper website to get discussion going.

The other resource we have asked for is a clear link with the Cabinet. The committee is currently chaired by the Minister of State but he is not represented at Cabinet decision-making. There is much scope for further research. At the moment the research is being commissioned by the advisory board of Irish Aid, but we consider that the committee and sub-committees such as this need also to have the facility for bringing facts to the table, and to look at case studies. Members will recall the case of the Atlantic Dawn, an Irish fishing vessel which was accused, basically, of undermining the livelihood of African fishermen. That type of thing comes to light only when people have taken the time to research it. It is, therefore, an issue of great importance, as is the mechanism, when the facts have been found, of bringing them to the highest level for decision making.

If the Senator wishes, we can make papers available regarding some of the mechanisms that exist in the various European Union agencies.

I welcome Ms Helen Keogh back to the surrounds of Leinster House. It is lovely to see her and I wish her well. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to listen to her presentation regarding her interest in the fight against poverty and injustice. We are talking here about how to go about achieving an integrated approach. Many organisations are, very loosely, doing very good work, but according to Ms Keogh's presentation a coherent approach is needed to determine how we all go forward and work together. I would not have known about what Dóchas has been doing up to now and I am very glad this is happening. I am very interested in the whole area of development aid, in whatever form it takes, whether in skills, professional expertise or finance, and how we can best carry out research with a view to reaching out to those countries that need us. There is much work to be done. Ireland is always in the lead, as she said, and there is the fine example of yesterday's cluster munitions statement, which provides Ireland with a real input into how we do our work. We have always maintained a strong volunteer effort in reaching out to developing countries.

I do not have much more to say, apart from wishing Dóchas well. We have a new Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development, Deputy Peter Power, in whom I have great confidence. I will work very closely with him to see how best we can make progress and have Dóchas linking in so that we may agree on the best way forward, making proper use of the money and skillsets available to reach out to the people of the Third World. I do not have any questions. I wish Dóchas well in its work and assure it of my willingness to be the link person between it and the committee, if that is required.

I shall start by asking Dóchas where it believes this is coming from in so far as the Government is concerned. Why do we need a committee on coherence? There is a theory that our aid budget has grown, perhaps too quickly, without the necessary research or thought being given to where it should be going or the impact it is having. One gentleman said here a few weeks ago that the same people were talking to the same people in the aid area, particularly those in government. He talked of anonymous UN funds that have no track record of efficiency, and that is where we put our money. Why does Dóchas believe this was set up? It worries me somewhat when an interdepartmental committee on coherence is set up - and there are reasons for this. Can Dóchas tell me what they are?

Ms Helen Keogh

For reasons of openness, basically, I would say. It can often happen that we do not have people in situ. The Chairman is right in that we can all operate within our own little cocoons and nobody knows what anyone else is doing. I am familiar with that type of approach. People will talk about the poverty industry and so on. It is important that we do not operate in that manner, and that there is understanding across the board of what is happening, and that there is openness.

Openness and transparency has almost become a mantra, yet we are spending more on aid. We know where it is going and we are measuring its impact. NGOs that receive quite a significant proportion of the Irish aid budget are, rightly, under absolute scrutiny by Irish Aid. We cannot have public moneys being spent without such scrutiny. The aid budget cannot be spent with 14 other Departments being totally unaware of the implications of some of the issues. Neither can the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, for instance, be allowed to implement a policy when the Department of Foreign Affairs realises this will effectively counteract some of the work we are trying to do in the developing world. That type of interaction is therefore essential. When one sees what is happening in other countries, it brings home the importance of achieving this coherence.

I said earlier that people's eyes tend to glaze over when one talks of policy coherence. We are, however, talking about the fact that we know what is going on in that we are not creating policy in one area which may be detrimental to what we are trying to achieve elsewhere. Ultimately, that is what it is all about.

Senator Hannigan raised an interesting question in terms of what happens when people say too much money is being spent on overseas aid. It is entirely up to us, the practitioners within that area, and also Irish Aid as the agent of the Department of Foreign Affairs to emphasise that the objective is justice - because of the injustice we are trying to counteract. It is about people who are living on less than a dollar day, perhaps, being able to have a decent life. It is about children dying from AIDS receiving medicines and education so that they may live a decent life, even though they are orphaned. All of these aspects must be considered so that we are not in a particular situation talking about a sum of money that is being used just for good. It is not that. It is about changing what is happening in these developing countries and empowering people there to also deal with the injustice that may be causing their situation.

Mr. Hans Zomer

The question being asked by the Chairman is pertinent. Perhaps I can start with an example from my own experience and then try to answer it.

I worked for a couple of years in Chad. We had a programme which was trying to promote rural development, as so many of our NGOs are doing. We were working with farmers and people were producing food with the objective of trying to help them to reach the next level. One man was raising camels because camel milk is part of the staple diet in Sahel countries. He was asking me why he could not export his milk. I did not know and told him I would look into it. It turned out that some civil servant in Europe had decided that camel milk was not fit for human consumption. One can export cow's, goat's or sheep's milk to the EU, but not camel milk. I do not know what may be done with it other than to consume it - and millions of people in Africa consume camel milk - but the European Union does not recognise it as a food for human beings. I concluded that no amount of help I could give him would solve this man's problem. He was trying to partake in honest trade, and here was this civil servant putting an obstacle in his path. This is the type of incoherence that we have to look at. One can be as generous as one likes, and give this man subsidies to engage in various undertakings but we are not helping him in terms of what he wants to do. For the camel farmer, one could substitute a cotton farmer in west Africa, who does not have a chance to compete at world level because of the rules we have put in place.

The Chairman asked where the interdepartmental committee on development comes from. The Government has acknowledged that Ireland must put the fight against poverty and inequality at the heart of our foreign policy. That is a fantastic commitment. The Government has realised that this is not just an issue of aid. This is about making sure the international system of trade and justice is pro-development.

The committee was also set up to bring skills together from across Irish society - aid agencies, the private sector and academia - and use them in the fight against poverty. That is very positive. We in the aid agencies get a bit too much good press. Everybody in Ireland thinks that NGOs can do all the development. We are very good at what we do, but that is only a small part of the developmental process. Development cannot be left to aid agencies alone. We need the UN structures. We need international agreements that regulate behaviour between states.

In answer to the question on where this committee comes from, it is a rethinking of what this nation is trying to achieve by engaging in development co-operation. We come from a tradition of being generous. The Government wants us to be generous, but it also wants us to be an agent of change at national and international level. That is why we are so pleased with this.

Ms Keogh talked about the need to empower people. That is a very important aspect of how we go about development aid in all its forms. It is about how to help people to help themselves. There is a weakness in that aspect of our attempt to link with the Third World. We are very dependent and we are not moving fast enough in that direction. I noticed that when I was in South Africa. I felt that we need to do more to empower people, be it through education, skills or whatever way we can. The example was given of the camel and the farmer who could export his milk. Empowering these people to help themselves is key. Otherwise we are throwing money at them and being there for the sake of being there.

Dóchas and the other organisations recognise that it is about more than reassurance, which is why this committee is very important. We can pool all of the information, thinking and expertise of those in the field to figure out the way forward on any given project. Sometimes money is squandered and there is much loose activity by some NGOs in their administration of certain projects. This is a step in the right direction and I look forward to co-operating with Dóchas on it. Am I right in my thinking?

Ms Helen Keogh

That may have been the case. Some people look at development aid as some form of charity hand-out. In the past, that was undoubtedly the way things operated. In recent years there has been a complete shift in emphasis. Mr. Zomer has already spoken about the case in Chad. I work with World Vision Ireland in east and west Africa. When people talk about development, they are often thinking about disaster mitigation and are not focusing on development, which is a huge part of what we do. All of that is about the empowerment of people. It is about helping people to help themselves.

When I first started in this area, I found my experience in local government to be really useful. We meet people in villages and so on. We have area development programmes that involve communities of 25,000 to 30,000 people in a particular area. When we visit them we talk to activists in the community, just like we have here at home. Local government and activists may not be as sophisticated as here but the people are just like you and me. What is amazing is that people volunteer to go on a local committee to develop a programme, even though they are living on $1 to $2 per day. They are giving something to their communities because we have given them encouragement in some way.

It is a bit like when we in Ireland received help from the EU to get communities involved from the bottom up. Some of it has to be from the top, but the empowerment of communities is fantastic. That is how most of the NGOs work. We are not displacing each other, as we work to a great extent in co-operation. The wonderful thing about Dóchas is that we have the opportunity as a group to do so many things together. That helps what we do individually in the field. I can understand why Senator Ormonde thinks as she does, and it may be the case when poverty is so bad that people are helped by the World Food Programme so that they can simply exist. Development programmes are more than that. They are truly about helping people to help themselves.

You said that organisations you represent have come under a great deal of scrutiny. You represent many NGOs and your constituency is 850,000 people. I am sure you represent groups that feel they are not getting enough money. I am sure you represent groups that feel the impact they make with the money they get is greater than the impact of other organisations. Mr. Zomer spoke about the direction of Irish Aid towards poverty reduction, rather than funding emergencies. Is there a conflict on where the money is going? We are talking about €1 billion. Are there people within your organisations who believe that the money would be better served in different areas?

Ms Helen Keogh

That is a very big question.

It is a fundamental question.

Ms Helen Keogh

There are various tiers of NGOs. The largest NGOs are on multi-annual funding. That is a real partnership process and has been ongoing over the past few years. The next tier is the civil society fund, which is multi-annual to a certain extent. Some organisations receive block grants from year to year. Our organisation will be involved in a process to do with maps. It is truly a partnership with Irish Aid and all that entails, such as the organisational assessment audit and so on.

Nobody thinks his or her organisation gets enough money. However, Irish Aid is very scrupulous about how effectively that money is spent. Mr. Zomer might want so say more on the general aspect.

Are the witnesses satisfied that the interdepartmental committee on development is focusing enough on the impact per euro?

Mr. Hans Zomer

That is not the role of the committee as such. Its role is to try to enhance the impact of development aid objectives by ensuring that other policy instruments used by the Government are in tune with that. There are the various ordinary financial controls in place for the aid programme, such as the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the external evaluations.

The Chairman raised another issue. We have done quite a lot of work in tracking the aid programme and where Irish Aid money is actually going. Obviously, the individual members of Dóchas are tracking their own expenditure but we are examining this to try to find some trends in Government spending.

One point that has amazed us is that there are a couple of standards which have never been discussed. For example, the Chairman made reference to how much money is going to the UN versus how much is going to the bilateral programme and the NGOs. The breakdown is fairly stable throughout the decades at about one third to each. However, we have not been able to find an actual policy decision or a discussion in the House that stated this was the division we need to have or that it is based on certain considerations.

Let us say the breakdown has been one third, one third and one third. Has Dóchas carried out an analysis as to the effectiveness of each of the one third segments? Are the euro that go the UN more or less efficient than those which go bilaterally?

Mr. Hans Zomer

It is very difficult to answer that question. We do not have access to the data on what the UN agencies are doing. There are also different expectations on what that money is being used for. When an NGO gets a grant for €50,000, it is to dig a well or something very tangible. At the end of that, one can ask whether the well was dug or not. However, it gets more complicated. The committee discussed Palestine a couple of weeks ago. In that case, one may have dug the well but somebody else has bombed it. Does this mean it was not a success? It is a complicated issue.

With the bilateral programme, what we are essentially trying to do is enable a country's government to do its job better but there are 100 different ways in which one can do that. It is very hard to ask what was actually achieved because some of these processes take 30 years.

It gets even more complicated when one is providing support through the UN. It is easy when it is a UN agency like the World Food Programme because one can say how many tonnes of food were distributed. However, when it is a programme such as the UNFPA, which looks at population programmes and maternal health, how does one measure the impact? I know the UNFPA and the other UN agencies are trying their best. What we must be satisfied with is whether the national government has put in place the mechanisms it feels are sufficient but we cannot judge that. What we can judge is our own effectiveness.

We believe we are pretty good but we could be better. This is why we have bodies such as Dóchas, where we try to work together to maximise our impact. Within that, we are still very conscious of our limitations. Even the biggest of the big Irish NGOs are tiny in comparison with the problems we are discussing. Just this morning, I attended a conference on food security. There are 850 million people who go hungry every day. An NGO would have to be very big to try to tackle that.

The Chairman is correct. There is a concern that we are probably not good enough at demonstrating that aid works but this is also because aid is not as simple as we may have thought. It is not just a question of seeing a person has no house and building a house, or seeing a person has no well and digging a well. There is an element of that but, as Ms Keogh said, much of this issue concerns social and societal change. These are not processes which fit within the timeframe of a project one can evaluate. We are talking about decades.

Reading Dóchas's presentation, an underlying concern is inherent in the sense that it is effectively pointing out that the committee that has been formed needs constant and active political oversight. I presume there is a concern that the same people are talking to the same people and there is not a second opinion with regard to the direction of the committee, and it needs those political figures to actively scrutinise the work of the committee to keep it fresh. Is that fair?

Ms Helen Keogh

That is certainly part of it. There is also the concern that the committee would operate at a sufficiently senior level, and that those people who are attending are the decision makers who are interacting with their Ministers and are in charge, or thereabouts. Policy is driven by the decision makers in the Oireachtas, those who have been elected by the people in order to do this job, particularly where there is cross-party consensus on an issue like development aid.

It is not that this is a kind of soft option. We are talking about serious business and a serious amount of money being spent. There is always an issue about the public purse but, as we are saying today, it is not just about money but about the effect all of our actions have on the lives of people in the developing world. This is not just a committee to make sure everything is going all right, lads. It is a committee that can have a profound effect on what is being achieved for people in the developing world. I do not mean this in a paternalistic sense but in an enabling sense for those people.

To be fair, Ireland has been quite effective. While we can always do more, we are effective at a European level and we have been effective at UN level also. In the old days, we used to say there was such a thing as moral suasion in economics. This is also a part of it. In terms of leadership, we have seen this with how our colleagues in the Netherlands, Finland and elsewhere operate. We are not suggesting they are shining examples but they are an example of the way things can operate and be effective.

If we did not have this committee, we must ask how this would work and how we could be sure that there was coherence with all the policies. As Mr. Zomer has mentioned when we spoke about the whole area of equality and equality legislation going through this House, as well as gender-proofing, development-proofing is the way to go with regard to such a committee.

Ms Keogh made a presentation to the committee. Was it on the same lines?

Ms Helen Keogh

Yes. To us, it was partly to encourage the committee and explain that we are here to help and will work with it. Its members asked us what we wanted and what would be important to us.

I hope Ms Keogh did not tell them they were not senior enough.

Ms Helen Keogh

No, I did not. They were and they are. We just want to make sure they stay that way. I mean no disrespect to anybody who may serve on the committee. As the Chairman knows, unless these things are done at a senior level, the issue can slip down the agenda and we do not want that to happen.

We want openness. The committee set up a website so there can be this interaction. People know what is going on in this regard. We do not expect them to report to the Oireachtas every second day of the week but there would be interaction so there is some forum for scrutiny of what is being achieved.

We can ask the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, as chairman, to come in to explain the work of the committee so far, and also to ask for that regular interaction and, if necessary, scrutiny by the members of the sub-committee. That is very simple and I do not see it as being a problem. We had planned to invite the Minister of State before the recess. I do not think it is a big deal.

Absolutely. It is the way forward and is the only way in which to keep the lines open in order that everyone understands one another. It was great to hear the witnesses' presentation today because I was slow to understand exactly how each organisation operated and the problems that exist.

The skills set subgroup is interesting. It is a proposal that has been bouncing around for a few years and I hear people talking about it continually in one form or other. These days one hears of people going on holidays to save pandas or nurse cheetahs. However, groups of people, such as engineers in local authorities, would jump at the chance to provide skills in countries that need it. What structure does Dóchas envisage in this regard? It represents NGOs that operate specifically in this area. How is the Government helping with such programmes at present? How does Dóchas envisage this working out?

Ms Helen Keogh

The opening of the Irish Aid centre on O'Connell Street was a highly interesting development that showcases development aid and so on. Moreover, various agencies such as the VSO use such skills. I believe some Oireachtas Members are going on work experience in the developing world through the VSO. This is one way in which it can be done.

Mr. Hans Zomer

The Government has set up a register for those who wish to engage in emergency responses. This pertains to hugely experienced people who can drop their own jobs and lives in Ireland as part of the rapid response initiative, which is a good initiative.

We also are somewhat concerned about the skill sets issue because good intentions can often lead to supply-driven responses. Basically, the assumption that anyone who has some degree of skill in Ireland can be useful in Africa is flawed. In conjunction with a number of our volunteer-sending organisations, we have carried out an assessment on how good volunteers are in respect of development. The conclusions drawn by our partner organisations was that the exchange element was important. They stated it was great to meet people from other cultures, etc. They were less interested in the skills transfer than in the solidarity aspect. This was because most volunteers can be a burden on the host societies. They must be looked after, they tend to get sick and after two weeks they may feel they have done enough and want to go off on safari.

As potential pitfalls exist, the volunteer-sending agencies in Ireland have set up a code of conduct for volunteers and for volunteer-sending organisations, the point of which is to insist on professional standards and to avoid thinking that anything one might do is a good thing. For example, were the engineers mentioned by the Chairman to be embedded in a programme that makes sense, that would be fine. However, it is not appropriate simply to get on a plane thinking that anything one does must be good.

Fair enough. That is interesting.

Ms Helen Keogh

The solidarity element also is important for a true understanding of what is happening and one also must balance this factor. Increasingly, aid agencies have been obliged to become more professional as their activities must be carried out in a businesslike and efficient manner. Moreover, as Mr. Zomer observed, one cannot have people getting sick either. However, it is important to foster such understanding. Even this welcome opportunity to appear before the sub-committee is part of that process.

Would the witnesses like to raise any other issues in this general area?

It was a start.

Mr. Hans Zomer

We are greatly encouraged by the interest shown by the sub-committee. I wish to plug some of our publications. At the end of last year we produced two guides that we can distribute to members. One is a set of suggestions to Members of the Oireachtas on how they can engage with development. The other probably is of particular interest because it tries to explain what are the aid agencies and development NGOs represented by Dóchas, as well as their limitations and strengths. In light of today's discussion, I would appreciate the opportunity to distribute them to members.

I thank Ms Keogh and Mr. Zomer for their attendance.

Ms Helen Keogh

I thank the sub-committee for the opportunity. We appreciated it and look forward to ongoing dialogue.

The witnesses will have such dialogue.

The sub-committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m. sine die.
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