Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Nov 2023

Budget 2024, Official Development Assistance, COP28 and Ongoing Humanitarian Situations: Dóchas

This afternoon we are meeting representatives from Dóchas to discuss the reaction of their members to budget 2024 and the official development assistance spending in 2024, to look ahead to COP28 and to update the committee on the ongoing humanitarian crises and situations in areas of challenge throughout the regions. I am particularly pleased to welcome Ms Rosamond Bennett, CEO of Christian Aid and chair of Dóchas; Ms Finola Finnan, deputy CEO, Trócaire; Ms Siobhan Curran, head of policy, Trócaire; and Ms Louise Finan, head of policy, Dóchas. I understand we will be joined virtually, from the Sudanese-Chad border, by Mr. Dominic MacSorley, humanitarian ambassador and country director of Concern Worldwide in Sudan. I am not sure if he has joined us yet but, in any event, he is very welcome as are all our guests are very welcome.

The format of the meeting is in the usual manner. We will hear opening statements which will be followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee. I ask members to be concise with their questions to allow everybody an opportunity of engagement.

Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For witnesses attending remotely outside of the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings. In this regard, I note Mr. MacSorley's attendance. He is experienced in these issues having had many engagements with this committee, so we have no concern as to the issues I mentioned. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House complex.

I invite Ms Bennett to make her opening statement. She will be followed by Ms Finnan and Mr. MacSorley, if he is ready at that stage. I welcome Ms Bennett.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to discuss Dóchas’s reaction to budget 2024, preparations and expectations for COP28 and to update the committee on some of the most pressing humanitarian situations that Dóchas members are currently facing, including the violent and shocking conflict in Gaza and the Sudan.

As CEO of Christian Aid Ireland, I may come back to those specific issues later but first I am very pleased, as chair of Dóchas, to represent the views of our network. I would like to begin by recalling the key role Ireland played in co-facilitating a political declaration at the UN in September, calling for renewed global ambition and commitment to achieving the sustainable development goals, SDGs, by 2030. The UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, warned that "the SDGs need a global rescue plan" and in the declaration global leaders, including those from Ireland, committed to "taking continuous, fundamental, transformative and urgent actions at all levels and by all stakeholders to overcome the crises and obstacles facing our world."

This is an important global wake-up call, in which Ireland played a crucial role, but we have not yet seen this same level of ambition here, including in budget 2024. The additional allocation of €60 million in official development assistance, ODA, through the Department of Foreign Affairs is welcome. Unfortunately, the funding lags behind both increasing humanitarian needs driven by conflict, climate and hunger, as well as our own long-standing commitment to provide 0.7% of GNI in official development assistance.

When in-country costs of resettling Ukrainian refugees are included, Ireland has announced that total ODA for 2024 would stand at €2 billion or an estimated 0.48% of GNI. While the allocation delivered through the Department of Foreign Affairs has increased, the equivalent total ODA spend for 2022 was €2.3 billion. Looking in more detail, and comparing against progress towards meeting the 0.7% GNI target, in 2022 Ireland's ODA, excluding in-country costs for Ukrainian refugees, was 0.39% GNI. In budget 2024, this is estimated to drop to 0.36%.

Despite the significant growth in Ireland's core ODA budget over the past ten years, it is not keeping pace with our commitments or, indeed, global needs. It does not go far enough for the people in dire need of humanitarian assistance in Gaza right now, for those devastated by the recent earthquakes in Afghanistan or for those who have fled across the border from Sudan seeking food and shelter.

We have called for Ireland’s ODA budget to remain focused on the least developed countries and countries worst affected by climate change and conflict, which is one of our great strengths. At a time when the world is on track to achieve only 15% of the SDG targets, with regression or no progress on approximately 30% of the targets, when over 70% of the world's refugees and internally displaced people come from the most climate-vulnerable countries and increasing numbers of civilians are caught in conflict, this is crucially important.

The year 2022 was also a year of unprecedented climate disasters, making existing development challenges more acute. Many regions of the world experienced record-breaking temperatures, wildfires, droughts, and storms. From the floods in Pakistan, which left a third of the country under water, to the worst drought in East Africa in 40 years, countries that have contributed least to the climate crisis are facing its worst consequences. Decades of rampant extraction and burning of fossil fuels by the world’s wealthiest countries, as well as a failure to take the action necessary to reduce emissions have driven increasingly frequent and catastrophic climate impacts. The historic agreement to finally establish a new, dedicated loss and damage fund at COP27 is an acknowledgement that these impacts are happening, that those experiencing the worst effects are disproportionately poorer people in lower-income countries and that wealthy, high-emitting countries must urgently provide new and additional finance to address it. Crucial questions still remain about how the new fund ought to start working in 2024. Ireland can play an important role at COP28 in supporting a fund that reflects the highest level of accountability and compliance with core principles of equity and historic responsibility.

Domestic action is also essential if we are serious about building sustainable food systems and tackling the climate emergency. To this end, we welcome the new and innovative €14 billion fund for climate, nature and infrastructure projects, which we hope will support Ireland's transformation to a green economy. The ambition and innovation we have seen in this new climate fund for Ireland could be replicated in a climate fund targeted at the communities in the global south. This would allow Ireland to live up to its climate finance commitments and obligations under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, UNFCCC, and ensure we are not diverting essential development or humanitarian resources from some of the world’s poorest communities. Such a fund could target the real change-makers, such as local organisations, women's organisations, civil society organisations and governments who work on the front lines of response. Ireland has a reputation of always standing in solidarity in word and deed with those who are the furthest behind across the world. To live up to that reputation, we need to see more ambitious and urgent action to ensure decades of progress towards ending poverty and hunger are not rapidly reversed.

Today I am joined by Finola Finnan, director of global programmes and deputy CEO of Trócaire, who will speak about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, and I am pleased to be joined by video link by Dominic MacSorley, humanitarian ambassador with Concern Worldwide and country director for Concern in Sudan. We hope our testimonies today give you a sense of the importance of Ireland’s leadership, influence and essential role in reaching those most affected by conflict, climate change and hunger. In our troubled world, it is essential to underline the genuine impact of Ireland using its official development assistance, ODA, budget and its diplomatic weight to reach those furthest behind across the world. We ask that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence support our specific requests of the Irish Government. They are to make good on Ireland’s commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income, GNI, on ODA by 2030 at the latest and to ensure that the increases to reach 0.7% are targeted on those furthest behind in the least developed countries and small island states and those worst affected by climate change and conflict; to urgently scale-up Ireland's humanitarian funding to local organisations on the front line of response in conflict-affected and fragile contexts, such as in Sudan and Gaza, recognising that funding must be underpinned by policies that contribute to addressing the root causes of crises; to advocate strongly, both domestically and at EU level in particular, for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and to ensure the protection of civilians and urgent humanitarian access and for accountability for all violations of international law; to increase the focus on Sudan at EU level to address the devastating crisis there in order to advocate for humanitarian access to those affected, including those displaced; and to urgently scale up funding to respond to the many millions in need. Ahead of COP28, we ask the Government to act on climate change at all levels, including delivering on existing climate finance commitments at a minimum with a view to rapidly increasing this allocation in response to the actual needs of low-income countries and in line with Ireland’s fair share of global targets; to make an initial pledge to help kick-start the new, dedicated loss and damage fund at COP 28 alongside our EU partners and to commit to developing a pathway to delivering our fair share of loss and damage funding by 2030 at the latest, in line with best estimates of global need; and to lead efforts to ensure that climate finance reaches those experiencing the worst impacts of climate change, including women farmers, small-scale farmers, fishers, pastoralists, and indigenous communities to deliver sustainable food systems.

I will now hand over to Finola Finnan who will speak briefly about the humanitarian situation in Gaza and then to Dominic MacSorley who will speak from the Sudan-Chad border

Ms Finola Finnan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak about the situation in the Gaza Strip. As a sector, we are horrified and outraged by the continued escalation of violence across Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory and condemn the indiscriminate attacks, hostage taking and the killing of innocent civilians that have taken place during and since the Hamas incursion on 7 October. As I speak, the population of 2.2 million of Gaza has been under intensive military assault for more than a month. More than 11,000 Palestinians, of whom two thirds were women and children, have already been killed by the Israeli bombardment and the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip is catastrophic. Unicef stated that Gaza has become a graveyard for thousands of children. It is a living hell for everyone else. The entire population of Gaza is traumatised by the relentless assaults by land, sea and air and the withholding of essential items. People are struggling daily to find clean water and food as well shelter, hygiene, health and safety. In Gaza, 150 women give birth each day in appalling circumstances. The two crossings to Israel remain closed and the Rafah crossing to Egypt is partially open. The trickle of humanitarian assistance entering from Egypt meets only a fractions of people's needs. The closure of the strip amounts to collective punishment on an unprecedented scale on an already vulnerable and impoverished civilian population.

We are deeply concerned by the escalation of violence and displacement in the West Bank. Since 7 October, 201 Palestinians, including 52 children, have been killed by Israeli forces and an additional eight Palestinians, including one child, have been killed by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem. Four Israelis have been killed in attacks by Palestinians.

The situation is dire, yet unhindered humanitarian access to meet even the most basic immediate needs cannot be secured at the necessary speed and scale in the absence of respect for the now near-universal calls for a ceasefire. Our partners are struggling to provide much needed services, as they too are caught up in displacement, loss of life and trauma. We remember each of them and their families today. I especially remember Viola, a vibrant, young Palestinian lab technician with Caritas Jerusalem in Gaza who lost her life along with her husband, her baby daughter and other family members in an Israeli bombardment while they were sheltering in St. Porphyrius church in Gaza. I also remember and honour Vivian Silver, a former Israeli board member of Trócaire's Israeli partner B'Tselem and a co-founder of Women Wage Peace, who was killed by Hamas on 7 October.

I commend the leadership of Ireland on being one of the first countries in the world to call for a ceasefire and on condemning violations of international law. The recent commitment by Ireland of €3 million to the International Criminal Court is an important step in ensuring accountability and justice for victims. Ireland should also ensure the EU and other European countries support the ICC's investigation and that respect for international law is applied equally in all countries. In light of the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe and violations of international humanitarian law, it is shocking to see the failure of the EU, the US and the UN Security Council to agree on calls for an urgent ceasefire. I call on Irish leaders to use all available influence to urge other leaders to adopt this position.

Every day of delay will result in lives lost in Gaza. That is unjustifiable. Peace cannot be secured if the State of Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people's right to self-determination through by means of its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, a blockade of the Gaza Strip and the maintenance of a system of oppression and discrimination against all Palestinians.

We in the sector, including Trócaire and other Dóchas members, call for an immediate end to hostilities and violations of international and human rights, the safe passage of humanitarian personnel and relief items to Gaza, the agreement of a sustained ceasefire, the immediate release and return of hostages and persons arbitrarily detained, and the holding to account of all those deemed to have committed war crimes under international law.

I thank Ms Finnan. The next speaker is Mr. MacSorley. I am not sure whether he can hear us and if the connection is sufficient to allow him to proceed with his presentation. If there are difficulties, perhaps Ms Finan might read his statement on his behalf.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

I can hear you, Chair. Can the members hear me?

Yes, we can. I invite Mr. MacSorley to make his opening statement.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

If there is any delay, Ms Finan will read my statement on my behalf. Will the Cathaoirleach confirm that he can hear me okay?

Yes, I can. I welcome Mr. MacSorley to the meeting. I acknowledge the work he has done and the leadership he has shown in some of the most challenging regions of the world over a long period. I thank him for that leadership and wish him and his colleagues continued good fortune and success in their work, particularly on the Sudanese border. While the reception is good, I ask him to proceed with his opening presentation.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend the meeting. I will not dwell on the political and military context, the analysis of which is available. I prefer to focus on the humanitarian crisis, the international response and Ireland's role within that.

Sudan is seven months into a conflict that has now spread across vast parts of the county, left at least 10,000 people dead, among them Sudanese aid workers, and displaced millions. Today, Sudan has the highest number of displaced people, internally and externally, in the world, eclipsing both Syria and Ukraine. Intensive fighting continues in Khartoum, making it a no-go zone for international aid workers. The fighting has also deeply affected Kordofan in the south and Darfur, where I am, in the west, both areas where Concern has been working for years. The level of destruction has been brutal, with homes looted and burned to the ground, schools and colleges destroyed and livelihoods wiped out. Across the country, WHO estimates that 70% of all heath facilities are not functioning. Our own assessment of the 84 heath facilities that are supported by Concern in Kordofan and west Darfur shows that everything has been looted, including beds, chairs, filing cabinets, drugs and, importantly, supplies of RUTF, which is an essential medicine to keep malnourished children alive; it is all gone.

Two days ago, I visited Ardamata in Darfur, which has been the scene of intense fighting until very recently. Our nutrition manager was visibly upset. The place is like her home, she said, but it is now a shell and she has nothing available to her to help sick children. Less than 100 yd from the health centre, thousands of families who have been displaced, not just once but multiple times in the past seven months, are literally trying to survive. One young woman told me her 13-year-old son was not just hungry; he was terrified, clinging to her day and night. However, our Concern staff are there and will be back. It is really important to state that despite access and security challenges, aid is getting thorough and, collectively, UN Red Cross, international NGOs and national NGOs have reached more than 4 million people with humanitarian assistance. It is not enough. Prior to the conflict, we were treating 200,000 malnourished children across these centres. Today, that figure is closer to 3,000 or 4,000. However, with the support of Irish Aid, among others, we are restarting, restocking and reaching more people every day. War destroys much in its path but not everything. There has been a long-term investment over the years in training heath staff, setting up mothers' groups, building resilience programmes and working with local partners. All of this, of course, has been hugely disrupted but it has not been destroyed. The integrity of that capacity is retuning and needs to be supported.

On the delivery side, the channels for humanitarian assistance are there. Access is not easy and trucking over vast distances is costly but these channels are operating as effectively as they can. They also need to be supported but that is not being done to the level that is needed. It is not acceptable that less than 35% of the $2.6 billion needed to support 18 million people has been secured. We are in a world where we will face more, not fewer, major emergencies. Crises, climate charge and conflict are on the rise. Today, El Niño is devastating fragile livelihoods across the Horn of Africa. It can no longer be business as usual. The resources are there to support multiple crises adequately and to invest in their prevention.

I pay tribute to Irish Aid and the Irish public for their continued support for our work in Sudan. Irish Aid funding is renowned for being predictable, flexible and focused. These key characteristics are essential in this context and allowed us to redirect funding recently to purchase 2,000 shelter kits for displaced families. I have been an aid worker for 40 years. I have been proud to wear the Concern-Irish Aid brand. I am not the only one. Our courageous Sudanese staff in Darfur, who were in hibernation during the worst of the fighting, greeted me four days ago wearing the Concern-Irish Aid caps. It is their identity also. They feel that connection, especially when times are tough.

I recognise that donors fund multiple international partners, but let us ensure that we do not just maintain but enhance the direct human connection between the Irish public, Irish Aid, Irish aid agencies, their national partners and people in the communities, for it is they who are often closer to the situation locally. At the policy and political level, a global Ireland has already demonstrated its influence and leadership on the world stage. We urge that this influence be exercises at the EU level, where, frankly, Sudan is not getting the necessary political attention or the necessary level of resources to match the scale of the tragedy that is unfolding.

Twenty years ago I was privileged to lead Concern's response in Darfur. Back then, the situation there grabbed the sustained attention of the media and donors. Today, the next generation is going through the same living hell except, this time, they feel largely abandoned. We can and must change this. I thank the committee for the opportunity to brief it today.

I thank Mr. MacSorley. I will now go to members for observations and questions, commencing with Deputy Carthy.

I thank our guests for being here, particularly Mr. MacSorley for joining us from Sudan. I will start with a couple of technical questions.

In respect of the ODA budget as outlined, it would be useful if the witnesses could address what appears to be an anomaly in the figures Dóchas and member organisations have presented versus what the Government is saying. The Government has indicated that total ODA provision across all Departments will exceed €2 billion. My understanding from Ms Bennett's opening remarks is that this includes in-State spending, particularly on the Ukrainian refugee programme. Will the witnesses explain how it works that domestic housing provision is included in an ODA budget, the length of time for which that will be the case, what the implications are for Ireland's target of 0.7% in ODA aid and whether they consider it appropriate to include in-State spending as part of the overall ODA budget?

Ms Louise Finan

I am happy to answer that. The OECD Development Assistance Committee, DAC, agreed some years back that the cost of the first 12 months of resettling refugees in a country may be counted as official development assistance.

That is what has happened here. It is common practice across donor states and not especially unusual. However, when we see a large spend on refugees in that first 12 months, it skews the figures. In a way, it means that we must have a breakdown. To be fair, the Department of Foreign Affairs has given that. If we look at the Irish Aid annual report for 2022, the amount spent overseas has been outlined as well how much has been spent domestically. We have confidence the money that has been spent domestically has not been taken from the overseas budget, it has just been counted towards it. That is really important. We certainly would not want to see any diversification of spending from the ODA budget. As members have heard, there are so many global crises we are trying to respond to that we need to see the funding going overseas increase. Once that in-country spend for the 12 months is being counted, it can inflate the percentage. That is why we are looking at much higher GNI rates from, say, 2022 onwards than we would normally have. From a civil society point of view, we would like to see a continuing push towards 0.7% being spent overseas and that funding very much targeting the least developed countries and those countries most affected by climate conflict and food insecurity. The Government can also count that money domestically as ODA, but we really want that 0.7% cap to be met and spent overseas.

On a related matter, Ireland has committed to double climate financing to €225 million by 2025. Does Ms Finan see that funding as part of the 0.7% commitment or would she expect it to be distinct?

Ms Louise Finan

We would expect it to be distinct. Under the UNFCCC, the commitment is that it is distinct funding.

If Mr. MacSorley can hear me and respond, that would be great. If not, maybe some of the other witnesses can. He highlighted that $2.6 billion is required to meet the humanitarian needs of Sudan right now and that the appeal is only 34% funded. Perhaps he or some of the other witnesses might outline how specific appeals such as that are met. Are there particular deficiencies with respect to states that might be expected to contribute towards that not doing so? There was a reference to the public or media profile of some humanitarian crises versus others. Considering that throughout all the statements we heard of the likelihood of greater crises resulting from natural disasters and climate change, but also conflicts, how can we address the issues where a crisis in one part of the world might be as severe as others but not get the same media profile as them? How do we ensure there is not a funding deficit in those instances?

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

As my colleagues would point out, most humanitarian appeals probably end up being 50% funded, or 60% at best. Other countries that are off the profile tend to fare worse. I once asked the UN co-ordinator in the Central African Republic what one cuts when one only has 30% of what one needs. He said one starts cutting back food from two meals a day down to one, so there are very real consequences and prioritisation that really should not be taking place. A key point in many respects is we are often finding the appeals are probably undervalued to a certain extent. They are pitched more around what we can get rather than the true cost.

We must recognise that since Covid and Ukraine the cost of operating in humanitarian crises has significantly increased. We have seen the cost of fuel rise everywhere and it is likewise with food. The WFP was saying it will possibly have to cut back on food distribution in Chad. On the flip side, we met for an INGO meeting, which was the first meeting back in Geneina, across the border, for some time. Our commitment is to ensure we are working as effectively and efficiently as possible, mapping out where everybody is working and ensuring there is not overlap. The bottom line is there is not enough money coming through, even at the scale of how we can respond and it needs to be addressed. As to the donors, I will choose one, namely, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. It has largely retreated as a major player and we and the communities are all living with the consequences.

I thank Mr. MacSorley. I have a few questions on Gaza and the situation in Palestine. Perhaps Ms Finnan or another guest could outline briefly the level of aid currently reaching Gaza. How does it compare with what would generally be going into Gaza in aid daily? How does it compare with what is actually required today?

Ms Finola Finnan

I thank the Deputy. I will start and others might add to it. As we know, there is only a trickle of aid going in because we only have one crossing at Rafah and also because of the situation, especially in the north, where there is very little humanitarian aid being delivered. Since October we have had about 1,320 trucks go in, which is only 4% of the daily average volume prior to the current hostilities. There is very little aid going in. From our perspective, we are seeing that a lot of our partners have been unable to work. Certainly, we are still responding to the likes of Medical Aid for Palestinians, which was able to buy supplies to stockpile at the start of the conflict and was therefore able to provide some critical medical support and supplies vital for treating the civilian population there. We have also been able to get some supplies from Irish Aid's rapid response, which we are hoping to get in soon, such as tarpaulins and the like. However, the truth is the UN is able to continue to support, but at the moment we are waiting to scale up and we absolutely need a cessation of the bombardment on the population to be able to scale to anything like we need.

Ms Bennett would perhaps like to include some perspective from Christian Aid as well.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

Yes. I was in Gaza in May. The need was huge there even before this. About 80% of the population rely on humanitarian aid and as Ms Finnan said there are very few trucks going in compared with what there was previously. We share many of the same partners but our local partners are providing medical and psychosocial care where they can where have stockpiled different supplies. They are providing as much psychosocial support as they can. Doctors we work with are going around on bicycles. They are surgeons, but they are just trying to dress wounds, go to people's homes or go to shelters to try to deal with the situation there. It is a complete drop in the ocean compared with what is needed when one thinks of how much the population relied on humanitarian aid before this and the effect of the hostilities. There needs to be a ceasefire - not a pause but an immediate ceasefire to all for hostages to be released, for medical aid to go in and for people to be treated.

Yes. Ms Bennett outlined her asks of these Houses, including with respect to the situation in Gaza. She asked us to "advocate strongly, both domestically and at the EU level ... for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and ensure protection of civilians, urgent humanitarian access, and accountability for all violations of international law".

On the first two I believe there is unanimous agreement in this. In the Seanad and in the Dáil we passed resolutions to that effect. On the third point, with regard to accountability for all violations of international law, there is probably a dispute in terms of what accountability should look like, particularly the accountability for Israeli actions with the bombardment and the denial of those human rights. Do the witnesses have a view as to what accountability should look like in this instance?

Ms Rosamond Bennett

That is up to the International Criminal Court to decide to investigate that. I believe there cannot be impunity, that accountability has to be taken for both Israel and Hamas, and that we have to refer it to the International Criminal Court. We have to encourage other states to do so as well. The situation just cannot continue the way it has with 160 children being killed every day. This is more children killed since 7 October than in all wars around the world since 2012.

The witnesses will be aware the Irish Government has suggested against making a distinct additional referral to the ICC in respect of what has been happening in Palestine. Is it the witnesses' view that this decision should be reviewed?

Ms Finola Finnan

As a group of NGOs we say that the ICC is an absolutely important mechanism and it must be available to the international community. The Irish Government using its influence at EU and international level to call out breaches of international law is crucially important. We have a number of partners who are ensuring the ICC has the information it needs. It needs to be able to do its job. We welcome the funding given by the Irish Government to support that. That would be our position.

On three occasions when I have been in the Dáil Chamber - twice last Wednesday and at least once today - the Taoiseach referred to times when calls have been made for actions to be taken with sanctions or measures to be made in response to Israel in particular. In the context of dealing with this at an EU level the Taoiseach said:

...we have been far too keen to trade with Israel as a European Union without demanding that it respects human rights and enables the creation of a Palestinian state. We have been far too willing to aid Palestine - we are its biggest donor - and we have not assisted on human rights, democracy and the defeat of terrorism.

Immediately after the horrendous acts of Hamas on 7 October, we actually heard some other commentators, including a member of this committee, suggesting that a response might be to reduce or withdraw aid to Palestine. Will our guests outline what aid to Palestine in funding from Ireland and EU actually looks like in principle and whether reducing that aid as it is currently constituted would be an appropriate response by either Ireland or the EU? Will our guests also outline whether there is an equivalence, as the Taoiseach would suggest, in having a trading relationship with Israel that is worth billions of euro and results in tax moneys going straight to the Israeli state which is then used to fund the ongoing war that benefits companies, especially arms companies that are centrally involved in the ongoing bombardment of Gaza? Can this be compared to the aid that is going to Palestine and is there any suggestion that aid going to Palestine is actually being used to deny human rights or fund organisations like Hamas militarily?

Ms Rosamond Bennett

I can only speak on behalf of Christian Aid Ireland, and Ms Finnan can speak on Trócaire. The aid money we receive from Irish Aid that goes through to Gaza and the West Bank in Palestine goes to ensure people can make a living and that they have livelihoods. We talk about climate change, and the people in Gaza and in the West Bank are suffering just as much from climate change as anything else. The funding goes on human rights in that they have access to water and medical services and so they can live a full life in the way any citizen would want to. The money that goes there is not part of a humanitarian programme but it is humanitarian funding. It is trying to make sure people are able to live, and essentially this is what the funding does. That is definitely humanitarian aid and is vital to the work for the lives of the people in the country.

Ms Finola Finnan

On the funding required, there is a flash appeal for Gaza, which is only 12% funded at the moment. It is a €1.2 billion fund, and the amount of funding that will be required to deal with the crisis is enormous. It is crucially important the funding goes to Palestinian and Israeli rights organisations as we move, we hope, at some stage beyond this crisis, and obviously while we are in the crisis.

With regard to the Irish Government, I understand the €13 million pledged by Ireland was €10 million for UNRWA and €3 million for OCHA. I understand that the €29 million is the funding going in 2023 to Palestine. The partners we fund are both funding the effort to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, but they have also been working in the West Bank. These are Israeli and Palestinian partners who are working towards a peaceful solution. It is critically important we allow those voices to be heard. There is no suggestion this funding is doing anything other than going to the purpose for which it was intended. There is good due diligence to ensure that. At European Union level there has been some suggestion that funding would be reduced. We would oppose that. This is a time when the needs are absolutely at an enormous scale and we need to fund that to the best of our abilities.

As NGOs we have also called for a number of issues in the Dáil, such as with the occupied territories Bill and the Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023, and we will continue to do that. We think there should certainly be a human rights approach. People cannot live in a two-state solution if there are illegal settlements. They cannot live with any dignity if there is investment in settlement goods. That would be our position.

I will be brief because the witnesses have answered a lot of the questions from my colleague. I thank all of our witnesses for coming in today and taking the time to come into the committee. It is really interesting and great to get first-hand information on what is happening on the ground with the humanitarian crisis. Obviously, we are all listening to and checking our phones to see if there will be a some sort of truce, but there is no news yet. The death toll and the numbers of children in Palestine and Israel who are affected by this has given all of us nightmares. It seems like it is close to home and it has really shaken our own communities given the lack of humanity on the whole for both sides. It is really upsetting.

We saw a huge number of Irish citizens pass through the Rafah crossing last week. It shows the importance of diplomatic relations. This was really evident. It is hoped as part of this truce that we will see Emily Hand released. We hope she will be in the first group of hostages. Obviously, we have to 100% condemn the brutal attack on 7 October that started this current part of the conflict. The humanitarian loss and disaster on the ground is horrendous. We wake up every day and check our phones to see if there has been any sort of ceasefire and if it is going to stop.

We really hope we will see some movement. We listen to stories of people coming back, who have been held captive by Hamas or Palestinians, who have crossed the border and how they have left family behind. The Irishman who was interviewed said he cannot believe he is now in Egypt and his kids can eat what they want, drink what they want and sleep how they want, something we take for granted here. I cannot imagine telling my children they can have only one cup of water a day. It is just horrific.

I thank Mr. MacSorley for trying to keep Darfur on the agenda. It is so hard because there is obviously a physical war going on but then there is also this pretend social media war whereby people try to put their war forward to gain support for aid and donations. It is really unfair because black lives matter. This is a war happening in Africa. It has been going on for some time. There is huge loss of life. It is a huge crisis. We have heard first-hand evidence at this committee in the past year about the situation in Darfur, yet when we open our phones it is not the first thing we see or the first thing our friends share. Our friends are all sharing material relating to Israel and Palestine, but it is really important to hear Mr. MacSorley today. I hope his comments get some traction among the Irish public because it is important we show support in the face of humanitarian crises all over the world, not just the ones on social media at the moment. Every child matters.

I thank the witnesses again for coming in to us.

Ms Finola Finnan

I thank Senator Ardagh for that. Talking about some of the forgotten crises, what we have not spoken about much today is the impact of climate on the humanitarian crisis we are experiencing. As Mr. MacSorley said at the outset, it is conflict and climate, and we have a real opportunity with the COP coming up to play a leading role as Ireland in that.

Talking about forgotten crises, Somalia has had terrible floods, with 1.5 million ha of land now underwater. That is 21% of the size of Ireland believed to be affected, so it is huge, and 200,000 people in the Gedo region, where Trócaire works, are suffering as a result of that and what they are calling a once-in-a-century event.

The issue of climate is one on which Ireland has played a leadership role in terms of COP and getting the loss and damage fund up and running. It is to be hoped we can also play a leadership role in that. I will bring in my colleague, Ms Curran, to talk about some of the figures for that, but we have just done a report. That fund is an empty bucket at the moment, but we need to make sure it is filled by the wealthy countries on the basis of equity and that it is transparent. We hope Ireland can make a pledge in that regard. We have also done some modelling to look at what Ireland's fair share is and we estimate it to be €1.5 billion. I will hand over to Ms Curran to talk about some of the figures in more detail, but if we are to address this unprecedented scale-up in humanitarian crises we see, we also need to address the humanitarian climate crisis that is causing much of the suffering we see in many places in the world.

Ms Siobhan Curran

To add in answer to Deputy Carthy's question earlier about the additionality of climate finance, at the moment we have a climate finance commitment that falls under a global commitment of $100 billion per year that was supposed to be provided from 2020 to 2025. That has not been met on a global scale or on an Irish scale. Although Ireland has committed to providing €225 million in climate finance, so far we have provided €99.6 million. That is our latest figure, so we are a bit off the €225 million, but that sum, to clarify, is also not our fair share. We and Christian Aid have worked on this. The key point is that we are meeting one fifth of our fair share of climate finance at the moment, so we really need to meet the full commitment as soon as possible. The first year we were supposed to meet it was 2020, so every year we do not meet that target results in a cumulative shortfall. Looking at Ireland's ranking in the OECD figures, we come in at about No. 17 out of 23 on climate finance. We are way down at the bottom of the leader table. We therefore call on Ireland to meet our fair share of €500 million per annum, and that should be additional to ODA. That might be channelled through ODA. Some of the way climate finance is delivered is within that, and we think that grant-based model is quite positive but we would like to see the figures disentangled in order that we can be sure that climate finance does not take from development finance.

On loss and damage, we and Christian Aid launched a report hosted by Deputy Ó Cathasaigh in the audiovisual room last week on loss and damage in which we have estimated what Ireland's fair share of loss and damage finance would be. We have estimated based on the most respected figures. There is a lot of academic research on this but there is an estimation of the loss and damage need by 2030 being €513 billion per annum. We have calculated what Ireland's fair share of that loss and damage finance would be and it is €1.5 billion per annum. That figure sounds quite large when we think of Ireland's current commitment to climate finance of €99 million. I will make two points. First, it is a realistic estimation of need, and this is what we are looking at in terms of loss and damage. The costs of the climate crisis are escalating and getting worse and they will be high. Second, when we compare €1.5 billion with our 0.7% of GNI, by 2030, that would be about 0.2%, so it is also achievable. I will not take too much time on this, but we are really looking for Ireland to set out a pathway towards €1.5 billion by 2030 plus pay our existing adaptation and mitigation finance.

In advance of COP, we have a great opportunity. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, played a really prominent role at COP last year in securing the loss and damage fund. This year it is about getting it operationalised. As Ms Finnan said, it is an empty bucket, which is no use to anybody, but the process at this COP is to move it from being an empty bucket to a fund that works and delivers. If we could get one key thing at this COP, it would be that richer countries commit to paying first and most and move first. The trust between developing and developed countries at this point is completely eroded because richer countries keep breaking promises. If there could be a commitment, with Ireland at the helm within the EU on this, I think it would really bode well for finally addressing loss and damage.

I call Deputy Cronin, to be followed by Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

I was not well last week so I am interested to hear about loss and damage because we have touched on the matter in the climate committee. The witnesses spoke about reaching €1.5 billion per year by 2030 and then sustaining that sum forever. I thank them all for coming in and for the work they do.

How are their aid workers abroad, particularly those in Gaza? The number of aid workers who have lost their lives in the conflict there in the past 40 days surpasses the number of aid workers who have been killed in any conflict so far. The UN has recorded the highest ever number since it started records. How are the witnesses' contacts abroad? I ask the witnesses to send them our solidarity from Ireland.

It is a very bewildering time for people. Mr. MacSorley is in Sudan now, where there is a civil war, a power struggle between two military actors or a military coup or conflict.

What is happening in Gaza is much worse and bewildering because we are dealing with democracy. It is not a civil war or a place where law and order has broken down. This is very deliberate. It is what they would consider law and order. That is depressing and upsetting for aid workers in the region.

Aid cannot be used as a fig leaf for the kind of destruction that is going on in Gaza at the moment. The idea of a humanitarian pause so that aid could be delivered safely and the war would resume after people have had a good meal is repulsive.

We discussed accountability for Israel, in particular. What kind of finance is it expected to provide? Money has come from the EU and other countries for Gaza. Israel has wrecked the place; UN schools and hospitals have been demolished. There is debris all over the place. I saw people sticking Israeli flags into mounds of rubble over the past few days. What kind of consequences should Israel have to face? Could there be some way of making it pay for the destruction it has caused?

A large amount of carbon has been released by all of the bombs and rockets. It is horrendous. We have discussed climate change and rebuilding. A lot of carbon is in the concrete that has been destroyed. It is appalling. I am grateful to the witnesses for their energy and commitment to their work. Could they talk about aid being used as a fig leaf when a deliberate war is being waged upon a defenceless people by a world power?

Ms Rosamond Bennett

I thank the Deputy for inquiring about our staff members and partners. The first thing we do every single day is find out who has made it through the night. We do not always know that information. We only recently found out about our colleague in Beit Salem, who works with Trócaire and Christian Aid, five weeks after the war began on 7 October. Given the lack of communication, sometimes we do not hear from people and we have to hope and pray for the best. We genuinely do not know what the situation is.

I would contend that we are looking at generational trauma. Any child or older person will be affected by what has happened in Gaza for the rest of their lives and others will be affected for generations to come.

As I have said, humanitarian aid is what keeps a lot of Gaza going. Where there is an occupation, blockade or siege, we can never recover from that. There will always be humanitarian aid unless a blockade or siege is lifted. When I first went to Gaza in 2013, I was shocked at the rubble that I saw then. I can only imagine what it must be like now. I do not know how things will be rebuilt or where the money will come from to do that. Ms Finnan may have more answers. Unfortunately, I do not have the answers.

How do the witnesses feel about aid workers being used as a fig leaf for the kind of wanton brutality that is being carried out by a democratic state?

Ms Finola Finnan

In terms of humanitarians and aid workers, our role is to provide impartial and principled humanitarian assistance to everyone in need. It is important that we continue to do that and that aid is available to the citizens of Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere in Syria, which are subject to this awful suffering. That is what we do every day and what we will continue to do. We will call for the right assistance to make sure that people lead some life of dignity and that their suffering is eased. That is critically important.

It is also important that we look at the structural drivers behind all crises, whether that is climate or conflict. As humanitarian and development workers, we do that. We talk about the reasons people are condemned to lives of poverty and suffering. The structural drivers of inequality are important to address, alongside the humanitarian assistance.

What about the role aid organisations might have in the rebuilding of Gaza when the war ends?

Ms Finola Finnan

It is difficult for Trócaire or Christian Aid to answer that question. A lot of politics is at play, which is probably not our role. We often hold governments to account.

As a politician, I should apologise because what is happening is a complete political failure. War, conflicts and power struggles happen, but this is an absolute political failure. The witnesses can take my apologies for that. Many psychological services will be needed as part of the rebuilding of Gaza. People will have disabilities as a result of amputations and all of that. Is there a role for aid agencies in that regard?

Ms Finola Finnan

We provide an awful lot of psychosocial support in Gaza and have done so for years through our partners. We have worked on gender-based violence, psychosocial support and trauma counselling. Those services have only increased, as Ms Bennett said. We have also checked in with partners and staff. Some 60% of the staff of our sister agency, CRS, have been displaced. As I said in my opening statement, everyone in Gaza has been impacted by the onslaught.

There is huge trauma there and there will be an enormous need for services. Medical Aid for Palestinians, the agency we support, already has a team of surgeons, psychologists and doctors ready to go in when there is safe access to Gaza. That will be enormous. We will continue to play a role in that and work alongside our partners there and in the West Bank which are gathering information and evidence.

I ask Mr. MacSorley to talk to us about children in Sudan and what is happening there.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

I thank the Deputy for her comments. The situation for children is particularly disturbing and challenging. Going back to the last point made by Ms Finnan, it is important to understand that humanitarian agencies are very aware of the context in which they work. We are rigorous in terms of supporting humanitarian principles around impartiality and addressing, regardless of where they come from, people's most basic needs.

The situation for children is devastating. As I mentioned, we had reached 200,000 children that were approaching malnutrition and we are only reaching thousands now. UNICEF has already stated that 621,000 children are facing hunger and potential malnutrition. We can become overwhelmed by these figures and it is important to look at different crises. Prior to the current crisis in Sudan, where we have access and there are resources, and over protracted periods of times where there is predictable funding - Irish Aid is one of the few donors that provides funding over a five-year period - the transformation and ability for communities to change is inspiring.

Conflict drives through all of that-----

Have we lost Mr. MacSorley? If we have, I think we have the gist of his reply.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

The first things we need to address are hunger, food and access.

I thank Mr. MacSorley. We have that reply. I call Deputy Stanton.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I echo the comments made by Deputy Cronin about the aid workers. Our thoughts are with them on the ground out there. Many people have made the ultimate sacrifice in various parts of the world. I take on board what Mr. MacSorley said recently about the horrific war in Sudan having been largely ignored by the West and the media in general. Many people do not know what is happening there, that the Rapid Response Force is actually winning and the horrors and terrors that have been perpetrated on the citizens of Sudan in this context. I have been following this subject quite closely and what is happening is absolutely horrific. There were terrible events in Darfur 20 years ago, but I think this situation is even worse in the context of the number of displaced people. I understand there was a drought in that country and that it is now experiencing intense flooding. It has been one thing after another on top of the war.

To pick up on what Mr. MacSorley said, why is it that the situation in Sudan is mainly being ignored by the West? We do not see it mentioned in any newspapers, except, perhaps, for a little comment here or there. This is one of the biggest states in Africa collapsing completely, being destroyed and sinking into complete anarchy. From what I have read, the brutality, torture and rape going on there is beyond description. Why is this situation not getting any traction in the media or any coverage worth talking about? Perhaps Mr. MacSorley knows the answer.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

I was on the border of Sudan and South Sudan just a few weeks after the conflict erupted. South Sudan is the world's youngest country and extremely poor. People were flooding into South Sudan with, literally, the clothes on their backs. South Sudan is not in a position to be able to do much to support those people. When I came back, I tried to generate some interest in this topic. I tried to speak to the media and tried to see if we could try to drum up some kind of response, but it is incredibly difficult. There is just little or no interest.

Most of the countries we work in now are conflict-affected, and conflict-affected crises are the most difficult to raise money for, with the exception of Ukraine. That situation was very different, and perhaps this is because it seemed to be closer to home. When we start to look at crises involving conflict beyond that, and we are talking about Yemen, Syria, Sudan, South Sudan and Gaza, it is very difficult to get a response. This is why public appeals and Government funding are crucial to allow us to respond to those types of crises. If these situations are not covered in the media, then it is even very hard to make the public aware of what is happening, never mind being able to respond financially.

South Sudan was mentioned and the influx of people from Sudan into South Sudan. Will Ms Bennett comment on the other countries in this region, including the Central African Republic, Eritrea and Ethiopia? Those two latter countries went through their own horrible war in Tigre not so long ago. That conflict has quietened down now, and hopefully it will stay that way. I refer as well to Uganda and Kenya. Is this situation in Sudan having an impact on the surrounding countries?

Ms Rosamond Bennett

It is definitely having an impact on the surrounding countries. Ms Finnan has just come back from one of those surrounding countries.

Ms Finola Finnan

I have just come back recently from Ethiopia, where a rather fragile peace agreement is in place. Again, we have seen the population there greatly traumatised. They were cut off for some time, and there were large numbers of deaths. While I was there, memorial services were held for people who had died during the conflict. It is a fragile peace. Mr. MacSorley might still be online and be able to talk to the wider humanitarian situation.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

Ms Finnan raised a good point. Regarding the media, this is a tough issue. We have to get beyond the fact the media can only pay attention to one crisis. What is happening in Gaza is horrific, but we must pay attention to other situations as well. I am in Chad, which has been and is hosting almost 2 million refugees. This is a very poor country and has massive problems, but we know this is the nature of it. The majority of refugees are now being hosted in neighbouring countries that themselves have their own major challenges.

Yesterday, I was in a camp called Lycée, which translates as "school". It started off with a number of refugees there some time ago. Today, it is a transit camp of 160,000 people, who are being moved to other camps in Adré in eastern Chad. This is a burden Chad cannot be expected to bear on its own. The lack of support coming in is now starting to fuel additional tensions between different groups and across the border.

At a global level, global Ireland is Irish aid, our trade, our embassies-----

I think we have lost Mr. MacSorley again.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

We cannot support all these. We can influence other key donors within that, though. At the end of the day, knowledge and awareness is everything and this is the starting point for solutions.

I thank Mr. MacSorley. I think we got most of his response, in spite of some difficulties. I call Deputy Stanton.

It appears, hopefully, that there will be a ceasefire - and, hopefully as well, maybe a permanent one - in Gaza involving Israel and Hamas. We all want that. Everybody wants that to happen. We all condemn violence from all sides. I turn back to my reading of what is happening in Sudan. Mr. MacSorley might tell us if there is any hope at all, any chink of light, that there might be any form of ceasefire and an end to the interminable war, which started off as a coup and prevented a democracy from emerging in Sudan, as I understand it. Is there any hope at all that this conflict might come to an end any time soon?

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

I am not sure, to be honest. Ceasefires have been declared, but none of them have held. Peace talks are being held in Jeddah, however. People are talking. The US and Saudi Arabia are backing these talks. What has at least emerged from both sides of the armed factions is a commitment to ensuring humanitarian access, to visas and to allowing international assistance in. A series of commitments has been given in this regard. This is a start. We must ensure these are lived up to, while the political solution is pushed for at the same time.

I will finish on this point because many of the questions have been asked by my colleagues. Other parts of the world also cause us concern. I am not sure if any of our guests want to comment on these countries or if they could give us an update on what is happening in them. Yemen is one. We were also told last week that 630,000 refugees were living in one place, in a refugee camp near Cox's Bazar in Bangladesh. There are so many other parts of the world similarly affected. We were told last week that 524 armed groups are in action in different parts of the world. I ask if the witnesses might comment on what is happening in Yemen and Bangladesh. We know about what is happening in Myanmar as well. These are areas I am quite interested in hearing about, if the witnesses could please comment on them.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

Christian Aid is not working in Yemen, but we are working in Bangladesh and Myanmar. As I said, three quarters of the countries we work in are affected by conflict. We are specialising in peacebuilding and conflict prevention. Without this, no progress can ever be made. It is very much about working at the grass-roots level rather than at the national level. This involves working with communities, and trying to change lives and find some kind of peace and stability. The need is great.

We are seeing an increase in the number of institutional donors that are interested in peacebuilding and conflict prevention, but it is the most difficult context to work in, especially in the likes of Myanmar.

We have mentioned climate change. There is conflict in Myanmar and Bangladesh and they are suffering from the effects of cyclones and typhoons. All of that gets added together, and it is just one economic and humanitarian disaster on top of another.

Mr. Dominic MacSorley

I was in the Rohingya camp a couple of months ago. The Deputy is right to raise the matter because the funding levels are half of what they were before, and there is a problem. Within emergencies, though, there are opportunities. I will highlight one. We were conducting training for 40 national NGOs that were in Rohingya and on the coastal plains. It was a one-week course to ensure that they had knowledge around humanitarian principles and the tools to access funding directly from donors so that, in future, they could act as lanes down paths through which local responses within Bangladesh could take a strong role. Even within these tragedies, we have to consider what opportunities we have to build a better structure and capacity for the future.

I will call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I thank him for his patience. On behalf of the committee, I thank him for the leadership he has shown on the matter of climate change, with particular reference to the loss and damage fund and his hopes and expectations for COP28. I give him the floor. I thank him for joining us today.

I thank the Chair for this opportunity. I am not a normal member of the committee, but I wished to avail of this chance.

I will take a slightly different and more zoomed-out focus than previous contributors, recognising what Ms Finnan described as the structural drivers behind all crises. While individual crises will always dominate the news headlines, and rightly so – take Gaza, for instance – blanket coverage of such crises can push out coverage of places like South Sudan, Sudan and Darfur and what has been happening across the Horn of Africa for years. What we need to do if we are to try to tackle the root causes of these crises, particularly in the developing world – I understand that Gaza and Ukraine are separate to what I am discussing – is to be serious about a loss and damage facility, climate adaptation and climate mitigation. The report prepared by Christian Aid and Trócaire, The Cost of Inaction: Ireland’s responsibilities for global climate finance, identifies loss and damage as a third pillar of what we need to do to tackle climate change. We went on an accelerated journey in COP27. Loss and damage went from not being on the agenda just a week before to being included at the very last minute. COP27 ended a couple of days past its deadline in order to finally deliver a first critical step in establishing a loss and damage facility. The transitional committee has met a number of times in what has been a protracted process. Ireland and Germany share a seat on the committee. We were important in that work and the witnesses have acknowledged some of Ireland’s leadership on this matter on the global stage.

What do we want to see from COP28 on loss and damage? The scale of Ireland’s fair share if it is to pull its weight – some €1.5 billion – was mentioned. We are unlikely to sustain that level of direct Exchequer funding for a loss and damage fund as a specific pillar that we should and must consider separately from our overseas development aid contribution. This fund should be additional. The Minister has spoken about a “mosaic of finances”. If I am right, that expression came from Caribbean countries and small island developing states.

There are two parts to this. What leadership do we need to see from developed countries on a loss and damage facility? Do we need everyone to jump together or do we need to take initial steps and set up a high-ambition coalition that puts its money where its mouth is and begins filling the bucket we discussed earlier?

Ms Siobhan Curran

I thank the Deputy for hosting the launch of our report. In terms of loss and damage, there is a significant opportunity now that we did not see last year. As the Deputy mentioned, loss and damage only got on COP’s agenda formally last year.

I will make a few points about COP28. A block of developed and developing countries have been in opposition at COP. Unfortunately, we occupy that space within the EU. We want to see the EU being a leader on the basis of equity and climate justice at this COP. The US has been obstructive in the discussions on loss and damage, to the point that, at the transitional committee meeting, it opposed wording whereby richer countries would have an obligation to pay into a loss and damage fund. Now, the wording from the transitional committee is that richer countries are “urged” to pay. That should be the minimum of what is required. We would like there to be an obligation. We just want to see a commitment to an obligation on richer countries to move first. As to whether a high-ambition coalition might discuss something like that, there are different options that could be discussed and pioneered at COP. Where trust is concerned, developing countries need to see richer countries committing, stop obstructing and putting their money where their mouths are. The next COP is a perfect opportunity to make pledges. We have heard that the EU will make a substantial pledge. We have not heard what that figure is yet, but I hope it is at the ambitious level that is needed. Ireland has an important opportunity to play a role as a progressive state within the EU.

Climate justice has to be at the heart of these decisions, but it keeps getting left out. In the transitional committee’s proposal, which will be considered at COP28, human rights language was removed. It does not make sense to have processes at the UNFCCC that do not have human rights or gender equality at their heart. The whole point of a loss and damage fund is to help the people who need it on the ground and who are paying the price for the climate crisis. That is what it keeps coming back to. Some of the poorest people and poorest communities, be they in Pakistan where a third of the country was under water, are the ones paying the price. Since the nineties, richer countries have been committing to paying first but have not delivered.

At the next COP, we want to see Ireland making a pledge and playing a constructive role in the negotiations and a final commitment being made to a fund that is actually capitalised and into which richer countries pay.

How we fill the bucket is one part of the equation, but how people draw from it will be critical. Ms Curran mentioned Pakistan, for example. Under some metrics, Pakistan might not be considered a least-developed country. It is certainly not considered a small island developing state. I cannot remember who it was, but someone said that a loss and damage facility that did not include Pakistan was no loss and damage facility at all. What do we need to see on the other side of the equation in terms of people’s ability to access the loss and damage facility so as to ensure that we are addressing the human rights necessity while also recognising the additional needs of least-developed countries and small island developing states and that we balance these requirements against countries that are further along the development pathway?

Places, such as the Bahamas, which are hit by a hurricane, which has been intensified by the heat of the water of the Caribbean, might be further along the development pathway, or, at least, they were before the hurricane hit. How are we going to balance those competing needs for whatever has been contributed to the fund and how countries can draw down from that fund? What should we strive for in COP28 to strike a balance?

Ms Siobhan Curran

It is an important point and it has been contentious. In our view, all developing countries should be eligible for the fund. As the Deputy said, climate vulnerability does not align with income all the time. This is the point that the small developing island states have been making for some time, because they are so vulnerable to sea level rises and other climate impacts that income alone is not a good barometer of climate vulnerability. To put it bluntly, there was an attempt to split up the G7 and China in the negotiations by focusing on this point. This is our view of it in civil society. It is really progressive and positive to see a proposal that will go to COP28 which includes all developing countries. One then comes to the issue of allocation and targeting. We have to think about a multidimensional approach to how we target and allocate funds, rooted in human rights. That is where the human rights language comes back in. We have to consider intersectional and inter-country inequalities. We know that marginalised groups within countries are the most vulnerable, particularly women. An allocation system will have to be decided.

The other point about this is the scale of the fund. If the fund is small and is not capitalised well, there will be a real problem in allocation. If the fund is capitalised to the scale that is needed, then a different conversation will happen. It comes back to the point Deputy Cronin made about how €1.5 billion per annum can seem like quite a high figure when we look at previous commitments. That is where we need to look at new sources of finance. That is a big discussion in the climate negotiations and wider discussions.

To reiterate, we think it is positive that Ireland commits grant-based finance to address climate impacts. We would like to see that in the loss and damage commitments. To meet the scale that is needed, new sources need to be looked at. In the report that we launched, we talked about options such as aviation taxes, shipping levies and wealth taxes. One that António Guterres has talked about a lot is windfall taxes on fossil fuel companies, which are making trillions in profits. There is a whole range of options. If we can capitalise the fund well and have a fair, human rights-based allocation system, hopefully that will go some way to addressing the need. The cost of loss and damage will only escalate unless we address our emissions. The other major thing we would like to see in COP28 is the phasing out of fossil fuels.

Does Ms Curran have an opinion on the World Bank being the keyholder for this fund? Is that just because we need to get a fund up and going, so we use the facilities that are there?

Ms Siobhan Curran

We are sceptical of the World Bank as the host of the fund, particularly because the World Bank is associated with loans. It is a donor-driven model. The power of the US as a shareholder in the World Bank raises questions. We have concerns. The transitional committee proposal has listed conditionalities for the World Bank to meet if it is the interim host. That is important. If the World Bank can meet those conditionalities and developing countries accept it in the interim, we can see how that works out. From our perspective, we really want to see an independent fund under the UNFCCC.

I thank the witnesses. That is to be continued, no doubt, in Dubai. I think that is at the end of next week.

Ms Siobhan Curran

Yes.

If there are no further questions, I will bring matters to a conclusion by thanking everybody and by referring, if I can, to the initial presentation by Ms Bennett on behalf of Christian Aid and Dóchas, with their seven asks for us as a committee. On the face of it, these are asks with which we could all associate. We will give the matter some consideration as a committee rather than me making pledges as Chair. I thank the witnesses for the concise nature of their asks. We have already adopted many of these issues in our engagement with the executive and the Minister, who answers to this committee regularly. We will go through the seven asks and we will be happy to formally reply in due course.

I thank the witnesses for joining us this afternoon. I acknowledge the great role that they play on behalf of Ireland on the international stage. Ireland has, since its independence, wished to take a leadership role in the matter of humanitarian aid under its various guises. We acknowledge the importance of the witnesses' work and thank them for joining us. I give special thanks to Mr. MacSorley for joining us from a position of great challenge. In thanking them for their work and leadership, we wish them continued good fortune, against the odds, in many respects. With that, I will bring matters to a conclusion and say to Dóchas that we look forward to continued positive engagement with this committee. We look forward to hearing from the witnesses again and thank them for their contribution and work.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.57 p.m. and adjourned at 5.06 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 November 2023.
Barr
Roinn