Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 2023

Services for the Treatment of Endometriosis: Endometriosis Association of Ireland

The purpose of today's meeting is for the committee to consider the issue of services for the treatment of endometriosis. To enable the committee to consider this matter, I am pleased to welcome, from the Endometriosis Association of Ireland Mr. Damien Donoghue, chairperson; Ms Illanna Darcy, vice chairperson; Ms Bebhinn Nic Liam, secretary; Dr. Geraldine Canny, board member; and Ms Breda McMahon, treasurer.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members taking part via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of issues relating to endometriosis, I invite Mr. Damien Donoghue to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Endometriosis Association of Ireland.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

My colleague, Ms Darcy, the vice chair, will be delivering our opening statement.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I thank the Chair and committee members for inviting the Endometriosis Association of Ireland, EAI, here today. By way of introduction, I have endometriosis. I was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome, PCOS, when I was 16 and endometriosis when I was 36. We are delighted to have this opportunity to open a dialogue with the committee, which we hope is the first of many, and to discuss what can be done to help people suffering from endometriosis. I am going to start with an overview of its effects and will then speak about some of the progress that has been made to date, our view on current issues, possible solutions and then a bit about us as a charity.

Endometriosis is a chronic and progressive inflammatory disease. It can manifest in many different ways, it has been found on every organ of the body and its effects are far-reaching within society. I am going to speak about five main areas.

While not a menstrual disorder, endometriosis is usually triggered during teenage years with the hormonal shifts that accompany the menarche. Young girls can experience intense pain, discomfort and heavy periods. Sufferers are frequently dismissed by doctors and sent home with pain medication or oral contraceptives. However, for most, these solutions do little to help. This can end up leading people to self-medicate and to rely on pain medication in the long term. We are all aware of the catastrophic outcome this can have

The next issue arises during reproductive years. Endometriosis often leads to fertility issues. For those who do not present with pain or those on birth control, the diagnosis might only be triggered when seeking fertility treatment. Surgery is often performed to create a window of opportunity for conception but, for some, this may be too little too late. There are cases where young women have lost their wombs or ovaries before they have even considered having a family and some have simply been left unable to have children as a result of poor medical guidance or the damage the disease has done to their bodies. On top of this, there is added anguish due to the inappropriate setting of endometriosis treatment, which is primarily conducted in maternity hospitals.

The third cohort are in the perimenopausal or menopausal stage. The oestrogen dominance associated with endometriosis patients can lead to complications in prescribing the right combination and level of hormone replacement therapy, HRT. Some women who have undergone a hysterectomy describe having to fight to get progesterone as part of their HRT regime. The common medical guidelines are that progesterone is not needed if you do not have a womb. However, endometriosis exists in the body outside the womb and progesterone can still be needed to help manage and control its symptoms long past menopause. These women can also face issues accessing the care they need as they no longer fit within the scope of gynaecological services.

The next area has regard to other related conditions. Endometriosis is correlated to other oestrogen dominance-linked conditions like PCOS, fibroids and adenomyosis. It is a complex condition with widely varying symptoms and unpredictable development. This can often lead to misdiagnosis and mistreatment. It is often mistaken for things like ovarian cysts or irritable bowel syndrome. There are also some startling studies that suggest other worrying comorbidities such as various cancers, autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis and inflammatory bowel disease, asthma, allergic reactions and cardiovascular disease.

The last area we will speak about today has regard to mental health and how this condition affects people's day-to-day lives. The endocrine disruption associated with endometriosis can cause anxiety, depression and mood fluctuations in many patients. In addition to this, there is the emotional stress for those living with the debilitating pain endometriosis can cause. I use the word "living" but is that even the right word to use? Are they really able to live or are they just finding ways to cope on a daily basis? There can be pelvic pain, pain that radiates down the legs or up the back, pain during intercourse or pain passing urine or stool. This can be mild and intermittent or chronic and continuous. There are those living with the chronic fatigue associated with endometriosis, a grinding fatigue that no amount of rest or healthy behaviours fully alleviates. There are also those living with the destruction the disease has done to their bodies after years of misdiagnosis and mistreatment and, for some, the turmoil of never being able to have children. For school goers, there can be frequent absences and an inability to participate in sport and social gatherings. For those able to work, careers and performance can be impacted and, worse still, some are not able to work at all due to the debilitating impact the condition can have. Furthermore, the financial burden on patients spans decades, causing additional stress.

To summarise, endometriosis is a misunderstood, misdiagnosed and mistreated condition that has far-reaching consequences for people assigned female at birth of all ages and socioeconomic backgrounds. The age at which the menarche is starting is getting younger. The life expectancy of females is getting longer and women now represent more than 50% of the total population. Nationally, and globally, we speak about the need for gender balance in society yet we lack an effective, cohesive women’s health strategy.

The EAI and a host of independent advocates have been campaigning on behalf of the endometriosis community since 1987 and were invited here by Deputy Gino Kenny to present in the AV room in December 2019. We then met with the health representatives of the different parties throughout 2022. There has been some momentum since then with the Coombe announcing its enhanced endometriosis clinic and the HSE funding an endometriosis clinic in Tallaght with plans for one in Cork through the women's health action plan. We welcome the positive steps taken here and with the development of the national endometriosis framework but we have concerns over how well understood endometriosis is and whether the needs of the patients have been fully considered. We welcome the opportunity to discuss this further this morning.

Fundamentally, there is still a long way to go and there are still many issues. Long wait times for diagnosis and treatment persist. Factors contributing to this include the lack of skilled surgeons, with only a small number trained in excision surgery, and insufficient dedicated theatre time for endometriosis patients. For anyone in severe pain, even a month is too long to wait. Women are still having to travel abroad to get the treatment they need and, while the cross-border directive was put in place to help facilitate this, not everyone is eligible, there are up-front costs that leave it out of reach for many and those who do travel are faced with the distress, loneliness and complications associated with travelling abroad for medical treatment. The Irish healthcare system is letting these women down and adding to their emotional and financial burdens.

There are costs to both the individual sufferers and society. Patients on public waiting lists may end up needing to go private to get the treatment they need or to go abroad as I have just described. Some have no choice but to stay on the public waiting list. Misdiagnoses can waste precious time and resources and add to unnecessary suffering. Complementary treatments may be used in an attempt to alleviate suffering and there may be monthly prescription bills for medication to mask the symptoms or pain. As I mentioned earlier, there are some who cannot work at all, who cannot work full-time or who need extended time off from work or school and this further compounds the personal and societal cost.

What outcomes are we hoping for for endometriosis sufferers and how do we believe they can be achieved? The first relates to education. We wish to create awareness in young girls and empower them with the information they need to get the right diagnosis or treatment and to continue to remove the stigma around talking about women’s health issues. We need to ensure that there is awareness that it is not normal to have menstrual pain that impacts day-to-day life. This could be done through school programmes like the ones rolled out in New Zealand and France and through regular awareness campaigns.

The second outcome we hope for is a reduction in the waiting time to get a diagnosis. Early diagnosis and intervention is key to preventing long-term damage and suffering. We seek GP training through continuing professional development, training for medical students at the undergraduate stage, training in imaging skills and how to identify the disease as it can often be missed or misread and an increase in the number of specialised surgeons in Ireland.

The third outcome hoped for is a reduction in the waiting time for treatment in Ireland. We need more trained endometriosis specialists within accredited multi-disciplinary clinics to provide effective treatment pathways, including aftercare.

The fourth relates to research. The treatments available today do not cure endometriosis. They suppress it through either hormonal treatments or surgical intervention, which can provide varying degrees of temporary relief depending on the individual case.

To understand this complex, multifaceted disease, increased funding should be made available. Dedicated research staff within centres of excellence and collaboration with academia are also needed. This would provide critical mass to further research. We understand this would require significant resources and funding but the cost of not doing it would, in the long run, be far greater. It is still estimated it takes on average nine years to get a diagnosis. One in ten women is thought to be affected, and given the disease affects women from age eight to 80, the number of women affected is likely to be underestimated and will continue to grow.

The EAI does not receive any Government funding. Ours is a small charity run purely by volunteers. We are affected either directly or indirectly by endometriosis, so can speak at first hand about the issues I have described. As a charity, we are now close to a full complement of board members and, thanks to the generosity of our community, we are for the first time in a position to employ someone part time. We believe this will go a long way to ensure we are better equipped to deal with the volume of people who reach out to us, whether directly or indirectly through the HSE, to expand our reach within the endo community, to unite the voice of sufferers and advocates and to start having regular open dialogue, with this committee or other stakeholders not here today, to ensure that, collectively, we will keep the patient voice at the centre of policy.

I thank Ms Darcy.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for attending and giving us this vital information. Approximately how many sufferers are there? I acknowledge this is an ongoing process.

In regard to school examinations, what do the witnesses have in mind? Would it be a screening process or a normal medical examination such as that which might occur in schools? What is proposed?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

As for the number of sufferers, that is difficult to say. We do not yet know. It is estimated to be one in ten women, which might equate to 150,000 or even 200,000 women in Ireland.

On the schools question, it would be initially to create awareness. There could be campaigns where people would speak in schools or information leaflets could be provided in order that young girls would understand, if they are suffering pain that impacts on their day-to-day life and means they cannot go to school or participate in sport, that that is not normal. Historically, this was considered to be something girls just had to deal with, perhaps because they did not have a high pain threshold and so on, but we now know that is not the case. If they are armed with the information they need to be able to recognise the symptoms early enough, that would help them to seek treatment and to get a proper diagnosis.

It takes some time for the diagnosis to work. How might that be shortened to ensure the greatest possible number of sufferers will be identified as early as possible?

Dr. Geraldine Canny

I thank the Deputy for the very relevant question. I was personally introduced to the disease in 2008 by a colleague in a clinical department and have since conducted some years of research and advocacy. The gold standard for the diagnosis of this disease is a visualisation of the lesions. As mentioned, the disease ultimately involves menstrual tissue, or tissue such as the lining of the womb, being found outside the womb in sites as distant as the lungs, the nervous system or even the brain. The current gold standard, therefore, is to use laparoscopy to visualise the lesions. In recent years, high-intensity magnetic resonance imaging, another imaging technique with certain specialised equipment, is needed to diagnose it. The issue is that no non-invasive method for diagnosis, such as by the obtention of a blood sample, has as yet been developed. Such a diagnostic kit, coupled with the education and training that health professionals and, indeed, families might have to support their loved ones who suffer from the disease, would certainly shorten the diagnosis.

In short, the reasons for the lengthy diagnosis are several. They include perhaps not having the best clinical management, a dearth of specialised medical staff equipped to diagnose the disease, the lack of information about it and the lack of a non-invasive test that would facilitate a rapid and reliable diagnosis.

Which countries have the best system to deal with the issue? Do we know where sufferers would be best placed to get diagnosed and treated as quickly as possible?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I do not think any country has the complete solution to dealing with endometriosis, but there are important initiatives in various countries. In France, for instance, around 2010, a pilot study was conducted in which GPs were given specialist training in the symptoms of endometriosis, and that led to an uptake in the referrals to the endometriosis centre by a significant percentage, of 30% to 40%. In New Zealand and Australia, there are ongoing educational interventions through civil society organisations. Endometriosis New Zealand delivers educational sessions in schools. The symptoms of endometriosis often present during the menarche and in the neighbouring GP clinics. Australia copied this education programme with slight alterations, where it is called the ME, or menstrual health and endometriosis, programme. It has been around for about 20 years and is being delivered in South Australia. The state and federal governments provided funding to the Pelvic Pain Foundation of Australia to run the period pain and endometriosis programme in high schools.

There are a lot of different initiatives in different countries. What we often face here is people not getting past, say, GP level, which would not be a problem in other health systems such as that in Germany, where people go straight to a consultant, without having to go through GPs as gatekeepers.

Has consideration been given to the possible benefits of conducting a pilot scheme in a given area to examine the issue in all aspects with a view to giving the best possible advice to sufferers and perhaps expanding that thereafter to a national scheme with the full support of the Department of Health? Has any research been conducted into how beneficial that might be?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I might step in here. As I mentioned, ours is a small charity run purely by volunteers. We use our spare time to look at the issues presented. It is definitely a viable option and we would certainly be interested in better understanding how we could set up something like that and be involved in it, especially now that we are finally in a position to take on a part-time paid member of staff, but it is not something we have had a chance to consider.

On the other topics that were just covered, one country to which a lot of people from Ireland travel to get treatment is Romania. There seem to be surgeons there who are known for being good endometriosis surgeons.

In regard to the question about the time it takes to get a diagnosis, another factor reflects what happened in my own case. When I was diagnosed with PCOS, I was put on birth control, or hormonal contraceptives, which suppressed the endometriosis. Because the pain no longer presented, I thought it was related to the PCOS and that I was kind of okay. In the 20 years it took between getting the two diagnoses, I suffered from all sorts of other issues, mainly relating to the bowel. I had colonoscopies and so on, which indicated I had irritable bowel syndrome, IBS, and when I eventually tried to conceive a child and was undergoing fertility treatment, my endometriosis was then diagnosed. It then made sense that I had not had IBS but endometriosis the entire time. That is another factor, given hormonal treatment is often used as the first line of defence.

It suppresses things but the disease can still do damage to the body while it is being suppressed and then one finds that out later. It can present issues from a fertility point of view or for other health issues because it had not been treated properly in the intervening years. It is another issue which means it takes time.

Regarding education and potentially creating greater awareness of the threat, to what extent have the witnesses examined that and studied it? Can they give us comparisons, places where an educational system has been utilised through schools or whatever awareness programmes to counter this?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

We are aware of campaigns that have been done in countries like New Zealand and France and we believe there have been positive outcomes from those. We would like to look at doing it in Ireland. As a small charity run by volunteers, we have not been in a position to do so thus far, but education is definitely key to being able to fight this disease. We would look at modelling some successful studies that have been done in other countries.

I am coming to the last question. Where is the best research available? Where can the witnesses go for it in order to alert their colleagues throughout the country?

Dr. Geraldine Canny

I thank the Deputy. That is a very relevant question. Without research and innovation, the necessary process on diagnosis, surgical and other non-medical therapies will not be discovered. Strong research is being carried out in the UK, the US, Germany and France. I note that little research on this topic is being carried out in Ireland currently. In those contexts, there are faculty members with teams, including post-doctoral researchers, technicians and staff with close links with the clinical environment and clinicians to obtain samples, who are working together. Progress in the field is slow due to poorly designed studies, for example, clinical trials without a comparator and studies using poorly matched controls, so they are not reliable and reproducibility is not there.

A universal problem is the dearth of funding for research. In several systems, diagnostic areas or therapeutic areas such as gastrointestinal disease benefit from a higher level of funding and investment in research than women's health and endometriosis. Given certain difficulties with respect to diagnosis, the complexity of the pathology and the recurrent nature of the disease, this is very much merited. As I previously mentioned, no marker has been identified to date that is sensitive and specific enough to diagnose endometriosis from a blood sample, for example. We are some years away from that. There has been a recent focus by certain companies on women's health and menstrual health more broadly, but again there are no major breakthroughs to report. Unfortunately, many of the medications used to treat endometriosis hamper the endocrine system, so they block oestrogen production or action and they also blunt the inflammatory response, which is the reason for the intense pain associated with the condition. However, I would say in general that a great deal more progress is needed on research and funding to go with it.

I note that members will be coming and going. That is normal practice, with people having to go to speak in the Dáil or wherever else. People are not just leaving the meeting. That is normal practice.

I welcome all our witnesses. I commend them for their advocacy and campaigning work in this area. In their opening statement, they mentioned some progress that has been made over the last number of years. Of course, we all welcome that. The Minister launched an endometriosis framework in March. Obviously, we want to see that be fit for purpose. Deputy Durkan asked about the gold standard or what is best practice. We all want to achieve best practice across the range of areas that need to be supported.

I want to talk through four key themes. The witnesses mentioned awareness in their opening statement. There are the issues of diagnosis and how important that is, treatment, then supports, aftercare and post-surgery care too.

In their opening statement, the witnesses referred to added complications with menopause. They said it can lead to complications with prescribing the right combination and level of HRT. I have direct experience of this in my family and have had to deal with people who have suffered from it. A number of menopause clinics were established in recent years. Menopause is an area where we have seen more services and discussion, which is all very positive. Is there any priority or easy access for endometriosis sufferers or patients to those menopause clinics? Have the witnesses experienced any difficulties with access to those clinics for patients and sufferers?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I am not aware of difficulty accessing the clinics. The complication arises because, as I mentioned, endometriosis is linked to oestrogen dominance. The general course of treatment through menopause is with HRT. A lot of the initial symptoms and perimenopause are largely dealt with through oestrogen. Obviously increasing the oestrogen in a patient who has endometriosis can worsen the symptoms in some regards. People who present with heavy bleeding and so on may, for instance, be fitted with a Mirena coil. It is then deemed that because the coil is there, they do not need any more progesterone. There are many cases of women who have endometriosis, fibroids and adenomyosis, like me, where we have the coil but there is not sufficient progesterone. It is only taking care of the uterus, whereas there are progesterone receptors all over the body and endometriosis is outside the womb, so progesterone can still provide much relief.

As I mentioned, once women have had hysterectomies, maybe as a result of endometriosis, adenomyosis or fibroids, the medical guidelines are that if they do not have a womb, they do not need progesterone, but if they do not have a womb and they have endometriosis, they still have endometriosis even if they had a hysterectomy, and progesterone can still be valuable. The guidelines are set such that they do not really encompass the endometriosis patients as well as they could. It is beginning to change but there are no formal guidelines on prescribing progesterone if people do not have a womb.

I thank Ms Darcy. In her opening statement, she talked about the inappropriate setting of endometriosis treatment being primarily conducted in maternity hospitals. From her perspective, what is the best framework and clinical setting in which to provide treatment?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I can answer that. We have always called for a specialist endometriosis centre. I do not think our population is large enough to have the number of consultants who have the experience, expertise and case numbers to treat endometriosis effectively within general settings.

A national centre of excellence, essentially.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Yes. An accredited one with dedicated theatre time.

That makes sense. In their opening statement, on solutions, the witnesses spoke about more endometriosis specialists. How many do we have in the State at the moment? When we are talking about more, what would that look like?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I do not think we have any-----

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

-----completely dedicated endometriosis specialists. As far as I know, they are all obstetrics and gynaecology consultants. There is the case where somebody might be delivering a baby at 2 a.m. and then is supposed to be there at 8 a.m. to do some extremely arduous, difficult surgery. The expertise required is on the level of oncology surgery. It is difficult and it takes time.

If we had a centre of excellence, if we want to call it that, would that also be a centre that could look at issues like improving training for GPs, for example? One of the issues that the witnesses raise in their opening statement, which is a very strong statement but is obviously happening, is that sufferers are frequently dismissed by doctors and sent home with pain medication or oral contraceptives.

The witnesses spoke about GP training through continuous professional development and at undergraduate level. There seems to be an issue with GP awareness, GP training and proper clinical pathways. If we had a centre of excellence and the specialists who understood all those issues better, I imagine we would be in a better place. What is the relationship like with GPs at the moment? Has the Endometriosis Association of Ireland engaged with the Irish College of General Practitioners, ICGP? It makes sense given the issues with training and so on, as the ICGP is the training body for GPs. I see it is not. Okay.

My final question is about surgery. My understanding is there are two different surgeries, ablation and excision. Is there a best practice or gold standard or does it depend on the patient?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Every case has to be dealt with on an individual basis and also having regard to the wishes of the patient. Excision surgery is more difficult and time-consuming and requires a really high skill level. We try to have everything evidence based and there is not quite enough evidence to say it is the only form, especially on more delicate areas such as the bladder, ureter and so on. We would welcome more research in that area. It can also be a very subjective thing in that the outcome of surgery is very dependent on the skill set of the surgeon and the complexity of the case. If the patient has been suffering with endometriosis for a long time, she could have a lot of scar tissue and multiple adhesions from multiple surgeries and so on. The location of endometriosis can be anywhere in the body. If the nerves are affected, it requires even more specialised surgery. As far as I know, there is only one person in Europe who will operate on endometriosis on the nerves.

Our role today is to listen to our guests and their direct experience. If we can help to move some of the issues on, that is what we want to do. I imagine we could write to the ICGP as a committee, Chair, to ask what the organisation is doing in respect of awareness training and the role of GPs in this area. Equally, research was mentioned a number of times and there is a dearth of information. We need to understand what best practice and the gold standard are. We have to look internationally at best practice. Maybe there is a role for the Health Research Board there.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

If I may, on research and funding bodies, we know that soon Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, and the Irish Research Council, IRC, will be disestablished to form Research and Innovation Ireland, a new national funding body. I propose that this is also a source of funding for research given that one does not just want a STEM approach but also an arts, humanities and social sciences approach. The latter would facilitate better incorporating the life of the sufferers and to understand their lived experience. In order to address such a complex disease and society-relevant topic, a multidisciplinary research approach should probably be taken. I would also say that there may be scope across universities that run medical schools to consider whether another module can be provided in terms of better understanding this pathology and the types of surgical skills required. As previously mentioned, it takes years for surgeons to develop the necessary skill set. Should surgeons not be sufficiently skilled, there can be severe consequences and sequelae for those they treat.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation and for answering our questions. I wish them the best in their campaigning and advocacy work.

I thank the witnesses for the work they are doing. It is incredible to think that this is a condition that affects so many people in this country, yet the Endometriosis Association of Ireland is not funded as an advocacy group to do the work. I am sure it is difficult when members here are asking if our guests have been in touch with this or that group and asking what they are doing. We have to bear in mind it is all done in their own personal time. I register our appreciation for that. Why is it the case? As a patient advocacy group, why has the association not obtained funding from the State?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

The short answer is I am not sure. The charity was set up in 1987. As I mentioned, it is a very small charity primarily funded initially from a membership fee, which is under review from our point of view, and some fundraising activities. The numbers are extremely small.

Can I take it that the association has applied for funding from the HSE and the Department of Health?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

My understanding is that we have not. Ms Nic Liam is our longest serving board member so maybe she can correct me if I am wrong. Part of the issue is that as a working board rather than a governing board, it can be quite stressful. In the history of the charity there has been some turnover as a result of that. I have been with the board three months and I do not think there have been people in tenure long enough to be able to co-ordinate an application for funding, which is what we want to do now that we are nearly at full complement.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We owe a great debt to the people who set up the Endometriosis Association of Ireland but it has always been people who are not well trying to run an association and provide support.

I appreciate that. It is hard, then, to get the time to go through the application process.

Ms Breda McMahon

If members have advice on how we can receive funding, we would be grateful for that. We are aware of the scheme to support national organisations, SSNO, which is not open to applications at the moment. If the committee could direct us to any possible source of funding we would really appreciate that.

Fine. Why is this condition is so misunderstood? Why does it get so little attention? The witnesses are saying one in ten women suffers from it, which is about 5% of the population overall. It is incredible to think we are such an early stage in treatment services and awareness generally. Why is that?

Ms Breda McMahon

I believe it is because there was a lot of stigma, and still is a certain amount of stigma around menstruation, which is how it normally presents, and also around infertility. These are taboo subjects in a lot of societies around the world. There was a lot of confusion about endometriosis when our association was founded. It was thought that endometriosis was some kind of sexually transmitted disease. There was a lot of misinformation and myths out there. There was a huge amount of stigma to break through. It was also a matter of normalising talking about pain, periods and all these taboo things.

I cannot help thinking if it was one in ten men, it would be a different story altogether.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It also leads back to an earlier point in that it generally triggers in teenage years, which can coincide with people taking birth control anyway. Because birth control suppresses the disease, people live with the other issues that present from it and find a way to manage them. It rears its ugly head again when people are thinking about fertility. For some, birth control does not even suppress it but for those for whom it does, it can be forgotten until it becomes a problem again, if that makes sense.

Ms Breda McMahon

For many people, birth control does not resolve the pain. It comes back to the piece around education and a lack of awareness among GPs. It takes, on average, nine years for a diagnosis. In my case it was more like 12 years. I received a diagnosis because I did extensive research myself, used information from the Endometriosis Association of Ireland website and presented that to a GP. GPs are not spotting the signs of this condition. There is a complete lack of awareness and people are suffering.

What do we know about the epidemiology or risk factors in respect of the condition?

Dr. Geraldine Canny

It is multifactorial.

Certainly there is a genetic component. It is clear that it is heritable through generations. With respect, we have already alluded to the fact that there is a an overproduction of oestrogen in the lesions and there is an overproduction of inflammatory mediators. It is thought that another potential risk factor is in endocrine disrupters, which are increasingly present in food, water and the environment. Such molecules, which are structurally diverse, can activate oestrogen receptors. These have, in some incidences, been posited to play a role in the pathology. This, however, is very difficult to prove per se.

We referred earlier to the announcement in March about the development of the national endometriosis framework. I take it that the association has had an involvement in drawing up that framework.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

No.

No. Were the witnesses not consulted?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

No, we would like to.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

No, but we would like to have been, absolutely.

So, the only advocacy group in the country was not consulted on the framework.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

No.

That is quite incredible.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We would like to be involved because it is important that the patient view is carried through to make an effective framework.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

From the press release we have seen, which is in the public domain, there is a lot done on the basis of a presumed diagnosis, and because the symptoms of endometriosis overlap with so many other conditions, there is a real danger of being misdiagnosed. It is important that we continue to have a proper diagnosis and not just a presumed diagnosis. We do not want any obstacles to be placed in the way of people getting effective treatment for endometriosis.

It is incredible that the patient voice was not heard in relation to drawing up this framework. One would expect that it certainly would have been.

Has the organisation met anybody in the HSE or in the Department of Health in recent times?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Yes. In 2019 there was a meeting in the audiovisual room with Deputy Gino Kenny-----

I mean meetings directly with the HSE or the Department of Health.

Ms Breda McMahon

The board met the Minister for Health last year.

The board met the Minister for Health. Was there an outcome from that?

Ms Breda McMahon

I am not sure.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We requested to have meetings with a lot of people and I do not know if they actually took place in the end.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

The people who met them are no longer part of the board, so there is little bit of a gap there in terms of the discussion or the outcome.

With regard to the lack of specialists, and surgeons in particular, typically in a country that has good services where would those surgeons come from? What speciality would they come from? It has been said here it is mainly obstetricians and gynaecologists, but would a surgeon need to have that background or would they come from any other specialty?

Dr. Geraldine Canny

To my knowledge, yes they would. The surgical techniques required are similar to gynaecological oncology, in the sense that excision of lesion akin to a tumour is required, so yes that is the case.

Is there any pathway at the moment for a doctor to train in that area? Do any of the medical schools provide that kind of specialist training?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

As far as I know, a lot of our doctors have trained in Australia in excision surgery.

From the witnesses' perspectives, what is the ideal model of care that should be available to people? Bearing in mind that the witnesses provided a very comprehensive opening statement, and the witnesses have raised a lot of questions and provided a lot of answers , and the session has been very good from that perspective, but ideally what kind of model of care should we be aiming for in this country? Will the witnesses talk us through that?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We need an end to the hit-and-miss treatments we have at the moment. There is a need for people who have pain to realise that it is not normal. We need public awareness so that when the patient presents to the GP, the GP would have endometriosis on his or her radar and could do a swift referral to a gynaecological specialist. At the moment, everything is dragged out and one could be 11 years in pain, on average, before actually seeing a gynaecologist. Even when the patient gets to that point there is no guarantee that this gynaecologist would be able to identify the different ways that endometriosis manifests, or even be able to treat it effectively. Basically, we need awareness, training, and a smoother pathway. Patients need to be believed when they present with pain. One of the reasons I got involved with the Endometriosis Association of Ireland is because I could not believe that I was hearing stories from younger women who were going through the exact same thing I had been through ten years previously, and were being told the same incorrect stuff from healthcare professionals that they had trusted. It is really important that the medical profession and the public, and society in general, are aware of it.

That brings us to the centre of excellence, which would obviously lead that.

I want to stay in the same area of the strategy because I concur. I have been looking at the Australian version from 2018. The Australian version is very clear that there are four partners: the health service, the government sector, industry and the personal support of family and community. The advocacy groups are one of the four key players here and included in that is women's health networks as well. We would expect to see from the Department consultation with the Endometriosis Association of Ireland and, while I do not want to job people up, also organisations like the Irish Family Planning Association, IFPA. With Healthy Ireland, a lot of this is just about living life and living it better.

I am trying to get a sense of what the organisation would expect to be seeing from that strategy. We might as well put it out into the public about what we would like to see from the strategy. I presume that on top of that list is to be consulted and involved in the development of it.

From what I can glean from the Government announcements, they are suggesting that Tallaght and Cork are being expanded and the Coombe has been further funded. Then there is another six on top of that. This would give nine areas. Is that correct?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

In my reading of the framework there will be some ambulatory college type services, and two supra-regional centres.

Is that two supra-regional centres plus nine regionalised areas? We are all guessing here but will these cover the country?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I am concerned that people could get stuck at a certain level and cannot progress because they are deemed to have their symptoms under control.

Honestly, that does sound like a number of levels would have to be passed before even getting told "Go". To get the specialist one must go through the GP, then through to a regional service, and then through to a consultant or specialist.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

My understanding is that the majority will be dealt with at primary care level. There will be two additional multidisciplinary teams for some cases, and the ones that are deemed complex will go to these expert treatment centres. Our concern is that if it is deemed complex or simple based on symptoms, what happens if it is the wrong understanding of those symptoms, and later down the line we then end up with people who are deemed to have the simple condition but then end up with other issues that subsequently have to be dealt with.

As was outlined earlier, sometimes symptoms are suppressed by comorbidities with other things.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It could be that the treatment is misdiagnosed, or the symptoms in some have been suppressed so that it does not fall on anybody's radar until it becomes a problem again later on, be that with fertility or later.

It is safe to say that since we have not seen the strategy, we have no idea what those interdisciplinary teams consist of or how well staffed they are at the moment.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Yes. We are talking about the number of supra-regional centres for the complex treatments but at the start we were asked about how many people suffer from endometriosis.

We are guessing because even we do not know. If we do not know how many people suffer, how do we know how many complex cases there are and whether we have the right infrastructure to support them? It is a large unknown. We are developing a framework without the proper level of data. As a charity, we are very small but we hope to expand. As I have mentioned, we are taking on somebody part-time, which will help us in that. If we could expand our reach within the community, we could potentially start collecting that data, which could then be used to drive these types of strategies and be useful on the research side of things. Obviously, we need some sort of help in growing the charity. It is very small and we need help in that regard but that is our ultimate aim. The patient voice would then be at the centre of the strategy rather than people guessing, assuming and hoping for the best.

I want to ask about data but, as Ms Darcy mentioned research, I will note that I was referencing the Australian version from 2018. I came across a significant announcement from those involved in the research there from June of this year so that strategy is obviously producing research outcomes as a result of this work being funded. I want to go back to data. I feel like I am always the person who asks about data. I would be completely unsurprised to hear that we do not collate or collect the right type of data around endometriosis. It strikes me that this is a chronic condition and that people live with it. We do not necessarily do chronic disease management for people with complex issues well. I know other health systems have treatment plans for people with chronic illnesses. One of the things that is happening is the development of registers for people who have particular conditions. Is that something the EAI has looked at? Has it looked at data being fed into a register so that there could be a shortcut for those accessing treatment?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

We have not done so at this point but it is definitely something we would like to look at with proper support for the charity.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

It would not be of great interest but it would enable longitudinal study because treatment will depend on the stage of life. A woman who is perimenopausal will not have the same needs as a recently diagnosed teenager. In that context, there are ethics questions around the obtaining and storage of data. If such studies involve surveys of individuals with the disease or a control group, ethics authorisation would be necessary prior to commencing. In that case, there would need to be collaboration with, for example, an academic institution.

100%. That brings me to what was mentioned earlier about genetic issues being at play. In some of the research I have read, it is said that women and girls who have close relatives with endometriosis are seven to ten times more likely to develop it. Obviously, that older generation did not have the benefit of a national strategy. There is a whole generation of women who may not have been correctly diagnosed or who are still going through a diagnosis process. Perhaps these women could be flagging it for another generation or may be able to do some of that work for a younger age group. Is that a concern? If we had a more developed and articulated register, understanding or education among women themselves about whether they had this condition, they may then be able to flag it for a younger cohort.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

Absolutely.

Is that something the witnesses would expect to see once the data becomes more fully populated?

Dr. Geraldine Canny

On furthering awareness among families, parents would be better equipped to recognise some of the symptoms rather than assuming that it is normal to have such pain during one's period or at other times of the month.

That brings me onto mental health. Particularly at school level, it strikes me that services for mental health have begun to be embraced in a very real way over the last few years. This was possibly encouraged by the Covid pandemic and children's experience of it. The idea that there is a genetic link deals with that in the home to some extent but how can we support children in schools? How can we support teams going into schools? At the moment, it is proposed that teams would go to various schools or that they would have a group of schools they go to. Is standalone training being looked at or would an expert in this area or in women's health, or someone with training in women's health, be needed to advise younger women who might not understand what they are dealing with?

Ms Breda McMahon

Mental health training should be added to the curriculum. We could help to develop any resources needed. Every child in every school should be aware of the signs and symptoms of endometriosis. Speaking of mental health, I cannot underestimate the trauma that women with endometriosis go through in terms of suffering as a teen without any answers and being told it is normal and struggling through trying to get a diagnosis. If you have to wait ten years for a diagnosis, it adds to the trauma and that is just not needed on top of a really painful condition. Even when you do receive a diagnosis, you still have to fight every day to receive the right care. It is really difficult for women in this country.

My final question is on the issue of surgeons and training. Have I misunderstood the conversation? It sounds like we have very few. Perhaps we might need to send surgeons for training abroad. Have I picked that up incorrectly or is that possibly what we need to look at?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We have a small cohort of well-trained consultants here who should be helped to train in colleagues.

I just want to be clear because I am trying to imagine what the strategy will look like when it is done. When we have the supraregional endometriosis specialist centres, that small cohort will then actively be training more surgeons in this area. Would those surgeons be trained to stay within the specialist centres or to go out to more localised versions? Does the EAI envisage all major surgery still happening in those supraregional centres?

Mr. Damien Donoghue

With regard to Sláintecare, we are doing massive reform. As has been mentioned, the voice of the patient is missing from this conversation. On training and education, I am a nurse and I only became aware of endometriosis through my partner's journey. From a male perspective, we are not aware of it. I am a nurse and I was not aware of it. To me, that sets off alarm bells. From the perspective of Sláintecare, we were not consulted. What do the supraregional centres mean? Who is going to be there? How is training going to take place? It is a question of capacity. Have we gathered and collated the data on what we are dealing with? There is a waiting list for every specialty. We have to get a handle on the numbers we will be dealing with. Are those supercentres alone going to be sufficient? I do not think so. There is a lot of guesswork involved. The first principle of Sláintecare is that the patient is paramount but we are the patient's voice in this regard and we are not at the table. That is important to recognise.

I am sorry that I was late earlier on. I could not get out of a speaking engagement. I thank the witnesses for coming today. It is very welcome that we are having this discussion in the Joint Committee on Health. Many of us, particularly the men, would never have heard of endometriosis. I certainly had not. I could hardly pronounce the word a number of years ago but I developed a better understanding from that audiovisual presentation four years ago and from friends who I never knew had this condition until they spoke up about it. I have met some really wonderful people in the last few years who advocate for better diagnosis and so forth.

My first question is on pain management. Obviously, there is a significant amount of pain associated with endometriosis. What is the bespoke pain management path that people with endometriosis normally take?

Ms Breda McMahon

There is probably a gap there. A lot needs to be done to allow endometriosis patients to have holistic care. I refer to a combination of pain management specialists, dietitians and pelvic floor physiotherapists along with their consultant surgeons. There is definitely a gap there. Many endometriosis patients will not have appropriate pain management care.

Over the counter just does not work out. Either way, long-term pain management through those sorts of drugs is not how anybody should be expected to live. We are aware of cases like that of Ms Aimee Brown. She had to go further to access the pain relief provided by cannabis because of the extent of her condition. I think it very much depends on the case. What we are trying to say is that the usual prescription is pain medication. Is that really how we want to deal with this issue, given that it spans decades? The answer is "No". The question is to find alternative ways to help people manage the pain.

Has the waiting time for a diagnosis reduced over time? I have heard people say it can take years before a diagnosis is made. Is that still the case?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Not that we are aware of.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

What has happened is that the public is a lot more aware because of endometriosis being mentioned more because we have managed to get it into the public domain. People are looking up their symptoms. Some are actually presenting to their GPs and telling them they think they have endometriosis, based on their pain and symptoms. There is a delay in diagnosis. Things like missing school, social or family events should all be red flags and ideally, it should be proactively managed. At the moment, it is very much up to the patient to advocate for herself. It would be so nice if a 14-year-old who presented to the GP knowing her pain was not normal pain was fast-tracked to really effective treatment, to have the best possible surgical intervention. By the time that person is 20, ideally the episode would be a distant memory and she could go on to live her life fully and productively in whatever way she wanted, instead of always having it with her and having to face multiple surgeries every time the symptoms worsened.

Is there a lack of understanding and knowledge among GPs regarding this condition?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Absolutely, yes.

How can that be rectified?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Awareness education is key. As Mr. Donoghue mentioned, he is a nurse and he did not know anything about endometriosis until a few years ago, so all through his training it never even cropped up.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

We have talked about the male perspective and my colleague mentioned the taboo of menstruation and women's issues. We have to have a fair and equitable society. As Deputy Shortall mentioned, if this was a male condition, we would be hearing a lot more about it.

I think there would be very different outcomes.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

Yes, exactly. From my perspective as a male, my voice is here because of my partner and the journey we have gone through. As a clinician and a nurse, I just did not have enough training about it. That is startling to me. This is not the place to go throwing accusations but we do have to take a look and get awareness and education at all levels in our health service. From a nursing perspective through to that of a clinician, if we are to help diagnose, we need to have the proper education and that is probably lacking at present. Getting the awareness out there is a starting point in educating people.

It is a travesty that patients have to be their own best advocate. They are already going through this terrible journey of pain and suffering and then they have to try to communicate it. They have to be almost as proficient in the medical jargon as the clinician they are talking to. They are often not listened to. My partner has voiced her frustration to me in this regard. Communicating that now and getting an opportunity for us to be at the table to say the patient is paramount is very important. Let us get the patient's voice in there. That will resonate with the clinicians and may make them better listeners.

Would it be correct to say that knowledge among the medical profession about the condition has improved over the last few years?

Ms Breda McMahon

I was diagnosed two years ago because I presented at the GP with my research. It was never mentioned to me in the previous years.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I agree with that. More information is available, so patients have more information to empower themselves to get the right diagnosis, rather than the other way around.

How many of those who have been diagnosed with endometriosis will need surgery?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It is hard to say. The point is that surgery is not the cure. It might be a question of how many people will need more than one surgery or multiple surgeries. That is another way to phrase the question.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

I have met patients who have had more than ten surgeries. That is significant and can lead to other sequelae such as adhesions, which then cause further pain. What is also clear is that the disease recurs in a high proportion, perhaps half, of cases. There is no cure.

I have heard Romania mentioned many times as a country that specialises in the condition. Do many women go to Romania for surgery?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I understand that they do. However, given the lack of proper data, it is hard to say. These are the types of things we need to understand better. We need to get information on how many people are suffering with this condition. We need to look at how many of those cases have a genetic link and how many do not. We need to establish how many people require surgery and where do they go to access it. This is the sort of valuable information we need to plug into the framework that is being developed.

We spoke about the framework in terms of what we were looking for in education, diagnosis, treatment and research. The Deputy' reference to pain management makes me think we have not covered in sufficient detail. The way endometriosis has traditionally been treated is not effective. However, we do no want people to stay on over-the-counter pain medication. That is really not the solution. We need to look at feeding this insight into the framework because it is a really important piece of it. Some people will have had the surgery, and may still need the pain management on a daily basis. This brings me back to Ms Aimee Brown and what she has had to do by herself to advocate for change to get what she needs. It is important that we encompass everything when we consider the framework.

I presume over-the-counter pain management refers to codeine in prescription form?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Yes.

That is not good for someone long term.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Absolutely not.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

That is why the issue needs to be explored. We are not yet at place where we can rule stuff in or out. We have to explore the options. People are suffering and in pain, so we need to give them something to ease that pain. At the same time, we need to understand the consequences of that so we are not blindly putting people on a long-term prescription for an opioid. There needs to be dedicated pain specialists with this particular pain in mind because pain is individualised. We need to have an extra focus on this, as Ms Darcy mentioned.

My final point is about the framework. It has been welcomed but there has also been some criticism of it to the extent that the condition is being treated at primary care level. This is probably an obvious question but how can we make better the new framework the Minister has announced?

Ms Breda McMahon

The framework just completely underestimates the disease. Very few cases can be dealt with at primary care level. As we have already mentioned, it speaks to GPs having a presumed diagnosis. However, that is not happening at the moment. We face issues at the very first hurdle because the disease is not being seen. Laparoscopic surgery is needed for diagnosis and removing the disease is the best treatment. I would say the majority of cases need to be referred on further.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Following on from that, there seems to be a reluctance to go forward with diagnostic surgery. This is quite strange seeing as it is the only way to get the histology samples to confirm the endometriosis diagnosis. It is not as if one would just have a surgery for the purpose of diagnosis.

No surgeon would do that. It would be unethical. It would also be surgery to treat and try to remove as much of the endometriosis at the same time.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Imaging technology is definitely improving. The disease can be missed and I can speak to that myself in terms of an MRI not showing it when it is there. Maybe it is a case of more training in imaging technology and more development there, or more facilities at primary care level to be able to do more than just talk about people's symptoms. As we said, the laparoscopy is the gold standard but it is an invasive procedure.

Will Ms Darcy say that word again?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

A laparoscopy.

What would that be?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It is done under general anaesthetic and it is invasive. I am not a medical-----

Ms Breda McMahon

It is keyhole surgery.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

Yes, keyhole surgery.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I had it done so I do not know what happened when I was knocked out.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

It is keyhole surgery, essentially, and as for what Ms Darcy mentioned there from the perspective of primary care centres, what does a tie-into Sláintecare entail? Do we have the relevant diagnostics in terms of medical imaging and people who are well trained and equipped to spot the signs there so they can maybe prevent people having to go for something, while it is minimally invasive, just to avoid that step. Having the skill set to identify it on medical imaging would be excellent. As I mentioned, having that conversation and talking to the patient advocates to understand what the gold standard would be is what is missing from the framework, for example. There are definitely lots of solutions and we would welcome working with anybody plotting those next steps. We identified that the framework is just that; there is more stuff to be elaborated on and developed.

I might come back in later on.

I will bring in Senator Black, who is online.

I thank all of our witnesses for coming. This is an important topic and I am glad we are speaking about it today. I thank the witnesses for the work they do on this issue. It is fantastic. I attended a powerful briefing on endometriosis hosted by Senators Ruane and Chambers in March, I believe. I realised that I do not know an awful lot about endometriosis apart from having friends who had it. It was really shocking to hear from women who spoke about the extreme pain they go through, constantly enduring what they have to endure, and their struggle to find supports. That was the big issue and Ms Kathleen King, who was at that briefing, has been advocating on endometriosis, for the rights of patients and for better awareness of the disease for many years., I would love to have her in at some point. I thank the Endometriosis Association of Ireland for its work on this.

Will Ms Darcy elaborate on the issue of maternity hospitals being an inappropriate setting for the treatment of endometriosis, as was mentioned in the opening statement? Will she expand on that a bit? Forgive me if this has already been touched on, I have been in and out of the meeting a little and so have not been present for everything.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

What we are trying to say is that endometriosis often leads to fertility issues. As I mentioned in the opening statement, surgery is often performed to provide this window for conception to occur. That is for the lucky ones. There are some who may have lost their wombs or their ovaries and cannot have kids. Some of them have lost those organs too young or there are some for whom the disease has just done so much damage that they cannot have kids. To be in a setting surrounded by people having children when it is the one thing one is struggling to do and it is the only place one can go to get one's treatment adds to the mental anguish. One is sitting in a waiting room and watching people with newborn babies when it is the one thing you want but cannot have or struggle to have.

I could imagine that could be fairly traumatic all right.

Dr. Geraldine Canny

We were also trying to make the point that centres of excellence are perhaps most appropriate and best equipped to provide a comprehensive clinically based approach. Taking into account the patient history, the skill sets required to treat the disease effectively range from surgery to gynaecological endocrinology and fertility treatments, to psychology to sexology, to nutrition. A multidisciplinary approach is required with the funding, staff and infrastructure to provide that.

Ms Darcy made reference to surgery in the context of creating a window of opportunity for conception. Is conception a recommended form of treatment or am I getting that wrong?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I was told myself that the cure was to get pregnant. I had a laparoscopy; I had surgery when I was going through fertility myself, and I was definitely told that before it grows back, this was my opportunity. I was one of the lucky ones. IVF did not work for me but I eventually managed to conceive my miracle child. When she was born, I was told I was better off having my second child, if I wanted a second child, immediately, before the disease comes back. Pregnancy can suppress it. Obviously it is not the cure at all but it can suppress it and that kind of a narrative can exist out there.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

It is a complete myth. It is one of those myths that have grown up with endometriosis. We have anecdotes of very young women who were told they have endometriosis and they can either have a hysterectomy or get pregnant, neither of which actually treats endometriosis in any way. In fact people who are pregnant and who have endometriosis are often denied the pain relief they need because it is believed by their gynaecologist that the pregnancy somehow does away with all pain. That completely negates the fact that their patients are actually suffering, maybe a lot more because of adhesions and so on being stretched. Pregnancy and hysterectomies are not treatments for endometriosis at all.

I cannot even imagine what that must be like for some women who hear that. It is quite traumatic. I know Ms Darcy gave a detailed statement regarding the impact of endometriosis on mental health, and she may have spoken about the hormone imbalance, anxiety, depression, and mood fluctuations. Are there other factors that need to be considered here? For example, I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with endometriosis many years ago and unfortunately there was no treatment for it. She really struggled with post-traumatic stress, from trying to understand it, get her head around it, the pain, and all the symptoms Ms Darcy spoke about today, but then having no treatment for it. Is post-traumatic stress linked to endometriosis as well and will the witnesses comment on that?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I do not know if anybody has received an official diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD. I believe the trauma people have suffered by not being listened to and by presenting again and again with symptoms that they later find out should have raised immediate red flags for a diagnosis. One's trust in the system, trust in their GP, and in the health system is all broken down and then they are left at a time when they are in so much pain and so weak with fatigue. To be trying to say, "what is this?", and always looking for answers. I remember being told I had irritable bowel syndrome, IBS, depression, and piles.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

My GP asked whether I felt better and I said the antidepressants made me feel a little bit calmer but did absolutely nothing for the pain.

What people really need is to be listened to and treated appropriately with respect and dignity. That would go a long way to address the stressful nature of trying to get a diagnosis and the right treatment.

I can imagine the trauma and feeling of isolation, especially when people are going to services that do not really understand the impact, symptoms and all of that. I imagine it is very depressing to feel so isolated in that place. In the opening statement, Ms Nic Liam mentioned that treatment for endometriosis is far from accessible. She also mentioned the upfront costs of the cross-border directive. Can she say a little bit about what that process entails and what degree of financial burden it places on the person who needs care? Can she comment on women being forced to go abroad or that the waiting time for reimbursement is up to one year and sometimes does not cover the full cost, in particular in respect of diagnosis where the appropriate approach is to remove lesions during initial surgery?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

My understanding of how the cross-border directive works is that the patient needs to pay and then reclaim the money. If patients do not have the means to do that, the directive can be out of reach in terms of accessing treatment abroad. That is fundamentally what we are saying.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Accommodation and travel costs are not included. That immediately puts it out of reach for many people. Having surgery by yourself in a different country is not possible for a lot of people. People need to pay for a travelling companion for safety reasons.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

From the lived experience of my partner having to go to the UK, as a clinician I have my clinician's hat on. Having quite extensive surgery and travelling back and forth is not ideal. There is also a disconnect in that people have gone to another clinician, which is not ideal in terms of follow-on care. While people are getting the best possible treatment, there is a disconnect, in particular after surgery. Sometimes patients are left to suffer. That is a big concern. There are avenues for funding, but they are not visible to everybody. It is not equitable. Having equality for everybody to access the best possible care and making sure there is a pathway and connection between the different centres is important. In terms of approaching different centres, people have to move all of their diagnostic tests and so on back and forth. Thankfully, we are in an age where technology is facilitating that more easily now, but it creates barriers and challenges which we need to eliminate. I am not advocating that we ship our problems away, but people are going abroad and we have to make sure they are being looked after in the best possible manner in terms of their aftercare and that there is that kind of interconnection.

Do I have time for one more question?

I want to ask about education. The school programmes used in New Zealand and France were noted. I am sorry if the witnesses have touched on this, but how might something like this work within an Irish context? Where would be best to concentrate a pilot programme? Does the New Zealand programme work really well? Are the witnesses aware of it?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We have been in touch with the person who developed the New Zealand programme. It could be localised for Ireland, but again we would need resources and a partner to implement it.

I thank the witnesses for their work. It is a really important issue. I do not think it gets enough coverage in general. We need to continue to highlight this issue on behalf of women who have and have not been diagnosed. I cannot imagine what that is like for women. The witnesses should keep up the great work. I hope they are able to get funding and that our committee can play a role in that.

I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes to give people a break.

Sitting suspended at 11.06 a.m. and resumed at 11.16 a.m.

I call Deputy Colm Burke.

I thank the Endometriosis Association of Ireland for its presentation here this morning and for all the work it is doing in this area.

I was in contact with someone before this meeting. A patient of theirs attended at an accident and emergency department over the weekend in severe pain. The person had already been diagnosed with endometriosis. She had already been diagnosed but medical staff diagnosed that the pain was caused not by that but by constipation. When we talk about education, maybe we should start within the medical profession itself. In fairness, GPs work hard and they have a wide range of areas to cover with all the patients whom they deal with. One of the groups that provides a lot of training and briefing to GPs is the Irish College of General Practitioners. I am wondering if the association has had consultation with the college as regards setting up information and training in this area or has it approached the association about dealing with this issue or even the college getting in consultants who specialise in this area to provide briefing to its own members because the association would then be dealing with a wider group of patients who can access advice at an early stage.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It is a really good suggestion. It was discussed a little earlier, briefly. We have not engaged with them. There was a suggestion earlier to say that, maybe through the support of this committee, they might be able to reach out to extend an invitation and introduce us to the committee. We would hope to have some interaction with them going forward.

I am talking about the association writing to the Irish College of General Practitioners and getting it, as well as engaging with the association, to engage with the medical practitioners in different parts of the country who are dealing with this area.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

We will write to them. It would be great to have the letter come from the joint committee as well.

There is a second point I want to raise. We have 19 maternity units around the country. One of the challenges we now have in some of these units is that it is a challenge for them even to get consultants for obstetrics and gynaecology. One is talking about units in, for example, Letterkenny, in Sligo and one in Mayo. One is talking about Tralee, Wexford and Clonmel. They are smaller units and they are all finding it difficult now to recruit consultants for obstetrics and gynaecology. It will even be difficult then, when one gets a consultant, to have one specialise in this particular area. I am wondering how the association sees that developing now going forward. There is no point in having one major clinic in Dublin or in Cork. We also need people to have access to care outside of large centres of population.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Endometriosis is only one of the conditions that feed in to the overall health strategy for the country. What we are looking for today, I suppose, is to bring the voice of endometriosis a bit more clearly through to any of the decisions regarding how health framework strategies are set up and rolled out in order that the needs of the patients can be heard more clearly in deciding how to allocate resources and how to attract trained physicians and specialists on a whole basis. As a charity, we would like to be involved in that process. We appreciate that there are constraints on resources and this constrains the level of roles that can be filled etc. It is to bring our voice into it in order that we are part of the conversation in terms of allocating where resources go, but where we need to train and attract more specialists.

In relation to the 19 maternity units, has the association identified which of the units have medical practitioners who are prepared to offer a service to women?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

At this point, no, because we are a very small charity, run purely by volunteers. It is something that, maybe with the support from the relevant committee, we would like to look at.

Has the HSE outlined to the organisation, vis-à-vis the programme that was announced in March, the timescale involved? Has the HSE outlined the timescale and the number of personnel it hopes to provide for this area?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

No, not that we are aware of.

On the numbers, we are talking about one in ten women who are adversely affected. Can a mechanism be put in place to get basic information out there? I mentioned the Irish College of General Practitioners earlier but are there other ways to get a lot of useful information into the public domain so that women can follow up with their GP who can then refer them on to the appropriate clinic? Is there more that can be done in that regard? Do the witnesses have any suggestions as to how we get that information out there? Do they believe, for instance, that there is a need for an information campaign on women's overall health, including this issue? For instance, in relation to cancer care and BreastCheck, we rolled out a comprehensive package of information. Should we be rolling out a national endometriosis information campaign or should the information be incorporated into an existing campaign relating to women's health?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

There have been some positive steps already. Endometriosis and menopause are both covered under the women's health action plan and the development of a national endometriosis framework will definitely be a move in the right direction. There is one issue that we still have concerns about. What we would like to do as a charity, with potentially more support or funding, is to use the information that can be obtained from people living with the condition and feed it back so that it is incorporated into the health strategies. This will ensure that the strategies are effective in treating the condition. What is happening at the moment is that we are assuming it is one in ten women. Under the endometriosis framework that was published, there has to be an assumption around the number of complex cases and this has driven the narrative around the number of expert centres that are required. Our concern is that without proper data, we do not know if that infrastructure is sufficient. We hope that as a charity we will be able to grow and expand our reach within the endometriosis community to collect some data. Obviously, we would need some support to be able to do that. The data could then be fed back into health strategies to make sure the provision is adequate. At the moment, there are not enough data.

I fully accept that the one in ten figure is only an estimate. A percentage of that one in ten need specialist care and a percentage can be carefully managed. What percentage will need not only careful management but also surgical intervention? Are we talking about a very small number? Is it a very small percentage or is it higher than previously understood?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It is difficult to say because each case is different. The effects can be so far-reaching and every case is different. These are the types of questions that we would like to get closer to answering over time and research will be key in doing that. At the moment, it is difficult to answer those questions with surety.

Ms Breda McMahon

It would be safe to say that a majority of people do go on to have surgery, based on the emails that we receive from our members. We hear from people who are in crisis, looking for help and support. It is a really devastating disease and I am not sure that it can often be successfully managed at primary care level.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

It can also depend on what stage in life the sufferer is at. Some people may seek surgery for fertility reasons, which is obviously surgery as a by-product of endometriosis rather than for endometriosis. Again, it is so wide-ranging but we would say that the number of people requiring surgery is probably underestimated and is likely to be larger than is currently thought.

I have one final question in relation to GP surgeries. Many GP surgeries have five or six doctors now, one or two of whom may focus on women's healthcare. Is there a need to identify those surgeries to see if additional training, help and support can be provided to those GPs who are focusing on women's healthcare? In that way, we would have a wider spread of specialist caregivers, rather than just focusing on the hospitals. GPs are on the front line and in many GP practices there is a whole lot of sub-specialisation going on. Some GPs focus on elderly care, some on paediatric care, and some on women's health. Would it be worthwhile identifying those who focus on women's health and trying to provide as much information as possible to them?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

We are a very small organisation without any staff so what we can do on our own is very limited. For instance, having a website is extremely important for us but we are struggling to maintain it. Our website is funded through the generosity of the endometriosis community. It acts as a portal so that people can find information about endometriosis, read some personal stories and get in touch with us. In terms of reaching out to the medical profession, we have leaflets but as a small, unfunded organisation, we struggle to get them printed up and sent out either to hospitals or to GP surgeries. We could really do with some help in that regard.

Before Covid I was a participant in the patient contact module offered by the Royal College of Surgeons. I would go into the college and tell the students my story and for most, it was the first time they had ever heard of endometriosis. They would ask some very insightful questions. Many were shocked that I had not sued my GP. I wanted to tell them about my experience so that nobody else suffers the way I did. I wanted them to know about endometriosis so that when they qualify they can either refer or treat patients as they need.

What we can do on our own, with very limited resources, is very small but with help, we could do a lot more. We need to do a lot more.

I was following the meeting online and heard all of our guests' contributions. I really appreciate the work they put into their opening statements as well as the time they are spending with us today. I know they are all volunteers. The work they are doing, on a very limited budget and with only volunteers, is absolutely tremendous. There is far more public awareness of endometriosis now than there would have been a number of years ago and that is down to the work our guests are doing. I commend them on that.

I have spoken to a lot of people who have endometriosis and their families. I have colleagues and friends who have endometriosis and I have also met people during the course of my work who have the disease.

What comes across is the torture that goes on with this disease, the gaslighting that women go through for years and women being fobbed off, misbelieved and treated like they are some sort of hysterical woman who cannot cope with a bit of pain. It has a devastating effect on women, their mental health and their families. It is not good enough that women have to rely on Google to give them a diagnosis. Ms McMahon mentioned that she researched this condition herself and presented her findings to her GP. We are all told that when we are sick, the best thing to do is not to Google anything and go to our GP but the reverse applies with sufferers of endometriosis. It is not a good, sustainable position. We need to move on from where we are at the moment.

The national endometriosis framework is a positive step forward but the education piece is big. I appreciate what the witnesses said about their lack of ability to do that work. We are here to funnel all of this information back to the Minister for Health and try to get a national strategy. The education part, from what I can see, involves a public awareness campaign and education within the school system so young girls can spot what is a normal, healthy menstrual cycle and what is not, and parents can also see the red flags. Women and girls should not be missing a family occasion, education or school because of their period. Their career progression is suffering, they are missing out on education and they cannot participate in sports. The effect on career progression negatively impacts on their financial stability, independence, pension – you name it. The gender pay gap is real and many of these hidden issues feed into it. Women feel they are managing pain and managing their situation to much an extent that they cannot take on anything extra.

Going abroad is not ideal for healthcare and that is one message coming from this meeting. In the recent past, we sent women abroad for healthcare and it was disastrous. We cannot stand over that and let it continue. I appreciate the point that there are far bigger populations in other countries, which allows surgeons to specialise. Is there any merit in connecting perhaps one or two Irish surgeons with experts in Romania, let us say, to do what would almost be mentoring? Is that something the witnesses would advocate?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

It is not just Romania. There are also endometriosis excision specialists in other countries in Europe, such as Greece, France and Germany. There are accredited endometriosis centres. I do not see why there could not be an exchange of ideas, training and research programmes.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

A formal link would be fantastic.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

One can see that with other specialties. People do their fellowships to specialise. As the Senator said, the density of the population centres dictate the ability to specialise in that area but it goes back to the point of how serious the condition is taken. If funding and research is going to be put behind this and it is appropriately staffed, there would then be a mechanism to send clinicians on those exchanges to do more in-depth training. There is definitely merit in doing that but supports must be in place here to allow that to happen.

Regarding GP training, are GPs who are currently being trained offered training in endometriosis care?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Not that we are aware of.

Are there continuing professional development, CPD, modules available for GPs currently working in Ireland who want to improve or update their knowledge, or get any knowledge, of endometriosis?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Again, not that we are aware of.

That is incredible. The witnesses are not aware of any formal training for young GPs who are currently being trained, so it is up to them to take it on themselves to Google it. Is that what this country is allowing in respect of a very serious condition? The witnesses described how serious it is.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

As I said, we are not aware of any of that. It would be good to have the voice of GPs here. As we mentioned, we have not written to the ICGP. We will post a session now that there is a little more awareness of who we are. We are assuming there is not but we cannot say for sure there is not, if that makes sense.

I hope that as part of the national endometriosis framework, funding will be provided for GPs. Perhaps we could get somebody in from the Department of Health to tease that out.

Is awareness increasing? Are people becoming more aware at a younger age?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

They definitely are. As we said, we are relatively small charity. We definitely want to grow our reach within the endometriosis community. There are some wonderful independent advocates out there who have been advocating tirelessly on endometriosis. In social media times, information flows an awful lot better than it used to. There is much more information, awareness and activity. Definitely, awareness is greater than it used to be but there is still much more that can be done to unite all those voices, perhaps through growing a charity like us, to then have a link with a committee such as this one or relevant Departments in order that we can shape a proper framework and continue to drive awareness.

Is the stigma reducing with awareness?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I think it is still there but it is reducing. The more we empower people to talk about it, the more it will continue to reduce.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I think there is still a big stigma in the workplace. We have people who are afraid of losing their jobs. It is not even that they are afraid of being stymied with their career progression but actually facing redundancy because of not being able to fulfil their duties or perhaps their employer is not adapting to their condition or being endometriosis-friendly.

Is it a case of employers not understanding?

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Our website and social media presence have been important in raising awareness. I refer to the number of emails we get in from people who are concerned. We are getting a much larger age range and also parents are now writing in saying their child is 14 years of age, is in incredible pain that is not being treated correctly and they suspect endometriosis. That level of awareness has not been there before.

I thank the witnesses for all the work they are doing.

I hope the witnesses can hear me okay as I am tuning in from my office. I thank them for their extraordinarily comprehensive and insightful opening statement and contributions throughout. They are all volunteers yet they are the leading source of information in this area in Ireland. Listening to them has been excellent. Nearly all the questions have been asked at this point.

Every week of my life, I go online and see a GoFundMe page or something else being shared to fund endometriosis surgery abroad. It drives me insane that there is again negligence in women’s healthcare. It comes up so regularly on my timeline that yet another woman in my life, nearly almost the same age as me or possibly even younger, is crowdfunding for her surgery abroad because she cannot get the support she needs here. That is a poor indictment of where we are, which is a phrase I must use at this committee every week.

I have more than one friend who is infertile and who may have had a radical hysterectomy because her endometriosis got to that stage. Perhaps if they had been able to get treatment earlier, had been believed earlier or we had the services in place, they would not be in the situation where they are in the menopause and unable to have children in their late 20s or early 30s.

One person I know made the decision to forego any fertility treatment because she was in so much pain and was suffering so much that she just wanted to get the surgery. She said she did not have the time to have the treatment and could not take another second of living like that. It is a really sad situation for us to be in.

The witnesses talked about the GP gatekeeping. Senator Clifford Lee asked about the training that is available and what we know about that. In terms of that gatekeeping, outside of the high level work in terms of engaging with the national GP body, do the witnesses feel there is potential for a shift there, or is it part of the old style of medicine where there is that gatekeeping anyway? Do the witnesses feel there is potential for a shift in GP attitudes towards believing women, particularly young women? Do they see or feel, from the advocacy work they are doing, that there is potential for that shift in GPs manoeuvring from that gatekeeping style of medicine into that collaborative piece? Are there further blockages outside of the attitude element because we do not have the supports available for them further upstream?

My second question is around travel. I am sure the Endometriosis Association of Ireland has a lot of engagement with women who are travelling for healthcare, and the cost of that. Forgive me if this has been asked, but I am not entirely clear on what reimbursement options are available for those women, if any at all, here in Ireland if they travel for surgery. I know that some people have opted for straight-up private consultants, particularly in London. I am not sure what the difference is if a patient goes for surgery with some companies. Are there any reimbursement options if they need to see private consultants abroad? Do the witnesses have any more information on that?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I thank the Senator for reinforcing how widespread and destructive this disease can be. In terms of the GPs and gatekeeping, it is a difficult question to answer. We appreciate that GPs are stretched. If there was somebody here representing that body, they would probably say that they are stretched and under-resourced. They do have a lot on their plates. With more awareness, it definitely could help. We spoke earlier about GPs who specialise in certain areas, such as the elderly and in women's health. Perhaps that approach might help in some ways. From our point of view, the starting point is definitely to open dialogue with them to understand, from their point of view, where they see it, so that we can work together to ensure that the endometriosis sufferers are being heard properly by them.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Endometriosis can be hard to pinpoint because the symptoms can be very varied and they do overlap with many other conditions. However, with a certain level of training, GPs should be able to differentiate, especially when the red flags of missing school, missing college, missing days at work or missing family occasions are raised. First, GPs are getting a lot more aware patients coming in the door, so there is that. Combined with some extra training to raise that awareness, I think there will be a shift. Of course, we do not want to have a blockage when they do refer people on.

On the Senator's question on the cross-border directive, CBD, it applies to the EU only. Great Britain is no longer part of the CBD, so people are funding that out of pocket, from credit union loans, from GoFundMe and so on. Even where the HSE does fund treatment in Europe under that scheme, it is upfront and it only covers the hospital treatment. Travel, accommodation and the need to have somebody else travel with the patient for safety reasons are not taken into consideration. As Mr. Donoghue said, it is inaccessible for so many.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

From a clinical perspective, we also have to consider if it is wise to travel and how long a patient can wait post-operatively in another location. The further afield you go means a longer flight. None of that is ideal for your best recovery journey. That is one aspect of it. There is also the issue of follow-on care. Clinicians are apprehensive to take on the care when it is disconnected. It is a joined-up approach. As I said, I am not an advocate for shipping out our problems, but this is actually happening. We want to make sure that our citizens are looked after in a very joined-up and cohesive way so there is a connection, the patient is not rushed back with all those other complications, and they have the appropriate aftercare and rehabilitation that is made available. That is not available presently. Patients are having to do all that extra leg work. They are going through massive surgery in some instances. They do not have the capacity for that. Supports need to be provided. There is the GoFundMe piece, but there are so many other steps that need to be taken into account.

There are a couple of points I want to make. I think it is incredible that up to 250,000 women in this State live with chronic pain and life-altering conditions, yet the understanding of endometriosis is so limited. The witnesses outlined some of the outcomes they hoped would emerge from today's meeting. Certainly, I found it educational myself. I think anyone who is listening at home will have found it very educational as well. As most of the members said, endometriosis is not something that we are overly familiar with. We know of women who have it but we do not know the detail of it. It is normally the case in Ireland that people are very polite and do not like to ask how a condition impacts on a patient's life. I have a few questions around diagnosis. The timescale for diagnosis is fairly shocking. On average, women aged under 25 are presenting with pain symptoms for nine years before diagnosis, and they are facing longer delays than those aged over 25. I do not understand that. The witnesses might expand on that. What do the witnesses attribute the length of time it takes for diagnosis to, and why is there such a disparity between the two age groups? Are they still trying to find out what it is when the patient is under 25? Is it dismissed as period pain or whatever? The witnesses might respond to that question first.

Ms Breda McMahon

I would suggest that in their teenage years, young girls are dismissed and told that the symptoms are normal, they need to get on with things and it is just the way it is. There is a lot of misinformation there. The other point is that as they grow up untreated, the symptoms become more severe. By the time you are presenting over the age of 25, you are probably in quite a significant amount of pain and you may be a stronger advocate for your own healthcare in terms of receiving a diagnosis and appropriate treatment.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I would say there is also a link with the childbearing years. A lot of the time, it is diagnosed when women are seeking fertility treatment. Again, that speaks to the age bracket in that many people need the diagnosis and treatment to be able even to have a chance to conceive. That does not crop up as often for women aged under 25 as it would for those over 25.

Ms McMahon mentioned diagnosis and the lack of information there and the big challenge faced by the cohort. We are unsure whether GPs are appropriately trained and whatever else. It is something that we, as a committee, could follow up on, certainly with Irish College of General Practitioners. On the availability of services, the national endometriosis framework that was launched in March was mentioned.

It is probably another thing about which we have not had an opportunity to ask the Minister as to how it is rolling out. Do the witnesses think the campaign should be an information-led one? Should that be a big element of it? It was mentioned that part of the campaign involves two supraregional centres. I think Tallaght and the Coombe are being talked about, reference was made to rolling out to Cork as well, and I think another area was mentioned, but is the EAI's idea that there should be one centralised centre? Is the EAI ruling out the idea of these supraregional centres? The big challenge many people have is travel. If you live in Donegal or Cork, it is difficult to get to Dublin and vice versa. The witnesses might expand on that idea they have.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

It ties back into our not having enough information as to what the steps are. Also, we know there is massive reform in regards to Sláintecare and the emphasis on primary care and regional centres. We still do not have enough information. What will that actually entail? Will there be diagnostic-level treatments available for patients there such that your centre of excellence is your tertiary centre that will be available to do the more invasive-type surgeries? We do not have enough information as to what that is going to look like. One of the main principles - I do not want to keep harping on about this - is that the patient is paramount. We are that advocacy voice and we should be discussing what those next steps are and helping guide the appropriate centre's direction, perhaps. We would welcome that. We are left in the dark a little with talk of positive steps. What are these next steps? Maybe we need to be in the conversation to help guide what might be best practice.

I think the fact that the EIA and that patient voice have not been involved in the framework is an oversight.

Reference was made to the number of women who travel abroad. Do we know how many women do so? No. That information would help. The recovery time can be up to four weeks. We mentioned women having to travel abroad for health treatment. There is the stress that that puts on the family, the cost element and so on. There probably is funding available for people to travel north. I am not sure about Britain, but that is another thing we could possibly find out more information on.

The potential cost of staying in a hospital or staying in these countries must be astronomical. Have the witnesses any idea of the cost of that?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

No. It would depend on the length of stay, but there would be flights and more than likely a hotel or some form of apartment. It will vary depending on the case and the length of time the patient needs to be there.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

There are multiple factors to take into account, including how extensive the surgery is. In terms of my partner's journey, the surgery was quite extensive. There was bowel surgery and several elements of the body operated on. The idea that you can get on a plane a week later or two weeks later is just absurd. It is not one size fits all. It depends on how extensively the disease has progressed. The condition is so individualised and, therefore, the same goes for what extensive surgeries are required and for recovery, so it is not a one-size-fits-all. Imagine going further afield. Let us say other specialties may need to be involved, for example, colorectal surgeons may be involved in the process. You have all that multidisciplinary involvement in the centre you have gone to and then you come back with no aftercare. You are trying to piece it together yourself. As I said, I am not an advocate. I understand why people go abroad and, as I said, my own partner had to do that. The big concern for me is that when you come back and you have gone through such extensive surgery, you do not have the follow-up or that extra TLC when you come home. As a clinician, I think that is so risky, and then there is the extent of other unwanted conditions and extra complications coming into the equation such as bleeding. You then go to present to another hospital and are told the hospital does not know what happened here; that the person was further afield. You hear that from other people's journeys abroad. Travel abroad creates other risks that do not need to be there.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I wanted to come in because the Cathaoirleach mentioned recovery time. A really important area we do not talk about enough is that when people have surgery it is invasive and it takes time to heal. There is a misconception that a laparoscopy is a simple half-hour procedure and you are a day-case patient so you will be home that night and can just continue your life as normal. What endometriosis patients find out is that, despite what they are told, they can still be stuck in hospital three days later, again depending on the surgery, and it can take weeks and weeks. In my case, it was not possible to do my second major surgery by laparoscopy, so it was open surgery. My recovery time was six months, and at the end of that I could lift up a kettle and pour the water. You are so debilitated and the healing takes time. It would be really nice to have recovery time as part of that national framework. In Germany people can go to the rehabilitation clinic and they have wonderful aftercare and physio and can talk to members of the multidisciplinary team in order that they have psychological help and help from the sex therapist or whatever else they need. They are not sent home to face everything by themselves and to try to pick up their lives. That is just too hard.

Is there a reluctance on the part of the medical profession in respect of people travelling abroad, or is it just that one cannot get an appointment following surgery or whatever treatment one gets abroad? Is that one of the challenges? Before travelling, what prep work does one need to do? Do one need scans? Do a person need her medical file? I presume it is a huge amount of work to try to get those files, access to the system and everything else if a person is chronically ill.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

I believe that people have to go privately to get high quality MRI scans and so on, which can help in the planning of the-----

All of that is needed before travelling.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

One needs to get a referral here to be able to travel abroad in the first place, yes.

Mr. Damien Donoghue

Then there is the follow-on from that. As Ms Nic Liam mentioned, if one has the surgery here in Ireland, one has all those pathways open to you. If it was very extensive, you would require physio or other therapies to support the recovery process. They would be automatically put in place. As you can imagine, a person goes through all that surgery and has to go privately looking for a physio to help on that journey to recovery. As we mentioned earlier, the patients are their best advocates because they do all that work while they are in debilitating pain and trying to be their own best advocates for their best outcomes. There are extra unnecessary complications there. If there were more supports in the interim while we are building our own resources nationally, that would be a good step in the right direction.

Lastly, this is probably a naive question, but does it get better as one gets older or does it get worse? Is there any research in that regard?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Again, it probably varies. In my case the endometriosis was diagnosed and I was one of the lucky ones who went on to have a child despite IVF not working. When I hit perimenopause, however, it felt like a slap in the face again. It came back and I developed adenomyosis and, suddenly, separate symptoms, all related, and separate issues. I would therefore say from my experience to date that no, it does not get better as one gets older. In my case, no.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

There is an assumption that things will get better when one hits menopause, but I think that is sometimes said erroneously as a kind of light at the end of the tunnel.

Endometriosis has its own ecosystem. I have seen cases of surgery having been done on post-menopausal women with active endometriosis. It really depends on the individual case. Nobody should be fobbed off because they are of a certain age.

As Ms Nic Liam was saying, it can affect every organ in the body.

Ms Bébhinn Nic Liam

Yes. A lot of sequelae are associated with it.

I greatly appreciate the witnesses sharing their stories. Do any members wish to come back in?

I too thank the witnesses for sharing their personal stories. I know it is not easy. We should be past a place in Ireland where women have to share their personal, private medical history to get a bit of movement. I feel for all our witnesses and am sorry they have had to go through what they have. We are going to do our best to make things better for them.

My final question relates to outcomes from this meeting. There are a number of things we as a committee will do. We tend to hop from one crisis to another in respect of many issues, but we considered which ones we had not covered as a health committee. Members were asked what their priority was and agreed on endometriosis. There are clearly advocates among the committee on the witnesses' behalf in respect of this disease, which affects so many women in Ireland. As a committee, if we can work with the witnesses as we move forward, there are certainly questions we can ask the Minister and the Department regarding what is happening. Clearly, we can seek an update on the framework, given it was rolled out in March, but there are other issues. It would be useful to hear about the question of blood tests and the research on that. If moves are happening elsewhere in the world in that regard, that is something we could look at.

A lot of research needs to be done. That women have been suffering in relative silence for years is in itself a scandal, as is the scale of the issue, at up to 250,000 women. Again, that is something we as a society need to look at seriously. Our health system, for all its faults, can come up with solutions for this. Challenges have faced us in respect of cancers, and while there remain huge challenges in that regard, we have got our act together in regard to much of our response. There are still faults within the system but, as with cancer, if we specialise, look at best practice in other jurisdictions and upskill our clinicians and so on, there can be positive outcomes for the population.

I wish the witnesses well. Is there anything else they wish to put on record or ask us as a committee to do? We can certainly help them with funding opportunities and so on, which we will discuss privately as members.

Ms Ilanna Darcy

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for their time today. He summarised the issue well. We were bequeathed some money in a will, which we received earlier this year, and that is why we are now in a position to employ somebody part time. Obviously, we want to ensure the longevity of that paid staff member, and that money is largely earmarked to do that. Funding on top of that would be most welcome. One part-time person is not sufficient to deal with the level of endometriosis that exists. We want to grow as a charity in size and in the support we can provide to the endometriosis community, to unite the voices of sufferers, advocates and ourselves and, we hope, to have regular dialogue with this committee or other forums to drive the national endometriosis framework forward in order that we will start dealing with some of the issues that exist. There will be benefits to society as a whole in doing that.

Research is the other area where funding could go a long way. As Dr. Canny mentioned, there is no cure. We need more research to understand what causes the disease in the first instance to be able to treat people adequately. We would love to be in a position to fund some research by PhD students, but we need support to be able to do these things. We hope this will not be the final time we meet the committee but rather the first of many and that the outcomes from this meeting will help us to move forward with what I outlined.

I acknowledge not all the members are present, but can we give a commitment that the Endometriosis Association of Ireland and other advocate groups can come back before the health committee within nine months?

I cannot give that commitment right now but we can certainly discuss it at our next private meeting. This meeting was a priority decided on by members. I think the best way of moving the issue forward is that when we get in the Minister and the departmental officials, we will start asking them questions about it and put on record that we have concerns about it. We will produce a report on foot of this meeting but we will need to follow it up actively, both as individuals and as a committee. If members consider it necessary to follow up on the framework, we can do that. I urge the witnesses at some stage to talk to members and party spokespersons about the issue and make an application for funding. They will not get it unless they ask for it.

On that note, I ask the witnesses to keep in touch with us and reach out to us. We are all much more aware of everything following this meeting, and we are here to advocate on their behalf.

The association has a website and can be contacted. Is that correct?

Ms Ilanna Darcy

Yes.

I thank the representatives of Endometriosis Association of Ireland for engaging with the committee on the issue of endometriosis and sharing their personal stories, which we appreciate. They will resonate with people at home in that there is a human element to this and sufferers are not a statistic but citizens of this State. The engagement was very useful and the committee will have to reflect carefully on the discussions. We hope there will be some positive outcomes and actions on foot of the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.08 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 July 2023.
Barr
Roinn