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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Sep 2023

Update on Sláintecare Reforms

Apologies have been received from Deputy Cathal Crowe and Senator Annie Hoey. Before we get to the main item on today’s agenda, minutes of the committee meetings of 11 and 12 July 2023 have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to receive an update on the implementation of Sláintecare reforms from representatives from the Department of Health and the HSE, with particular focus on manpower planning. The committee notes the publication of the organisational reform HSE Health Regions Implementation Plan in July.

Separately, I would like to point out to members that the committee will be meeting tomorrow with Children’s Health Ireland to consider the recently raised substantial issues relating to spinal surgery in Temple Street hospital.

I am pleased to welcome from the Department of Health Ms Rachel Kenna, chief nursing officer and Ms Breda Rafter, principal officer for workforce planning. I have been told that Mr. Robert Watt is on his way. I am also pleased to welcome from the HSE Mr. Bernard Gloster, CEO, Mr. Dean Sullivan, chief strategy officer, Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer, Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director, Mr. Liam Woods, national director, and Ms Sheila McGuinness, national lead on the waiting list action plan.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I will ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House complex before making a contribution.

We will commence our consideration of the current position regarding Sláintecare. I invite Mr. Gloster to make his opening remarks on behalf of the HSE.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Good morning Chairman and members of the committee. Thanks for the invitation to meet with the committee today and to join with colleagues from the Department of Health in providing an update on our work arising from the Sláintecare policy framework. I am joined today by my colleagues Mr. Liam Woods, national director for regional health area, RHA, implementation, Ms Sheila McGuinness, national lead on the waiting list action plan for acute hospitals, Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director of human resources, HR, Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer and Mr. Dean Sullivan, chief strategy officer. I am supported by senior staff Ms Sara Maxwell and Mr. Ray Mitchell.

Previous briefings to this committee have demonstrated strong progress on aspects of Sláintecare and on overall health reforms. While access remains a challenge and is our central focus, our activity and performance has grown considerably this year. Unprecedented growth in demand for services, also experienced in other jurisdictions, is believed to be associated with pent-up demand post the pandemic. It is for this reason that access is challenged at a number of points but also showing signs of some improvements in the right direction.

I want to briefly address two matters central to the current implementation of Sláintecare. The first of these is organisational reform. The HSE, with the approval of the Minister for Health and Government, has now moved to recruit six regional executive officers to lead the implementation of health regions. These senior post holders will report directly to me. I have also issued a draft new design for the HSE centre and national services. It is my intention to finalise that by year end then move to implementation in parallel to the establishment of the health regions in the period up to September 2024. This is a radical redefinition of the HSE centre and, together with the direct reporting of six regional executive officers to me, represents the most significant de-layering of the HSE since its establishment in 2005.

The second matter is that of the workforce, which is of specific interest to the committee today and which will also be addressed by the Secretary General of the Department in his opening statement. At the end of August 2023, the HSE and section 38 agencies employed 161,634 people equating to 142,468 whole-time equivalents, WTEs. That is a net growth of 4,722 WTEs, with four months of the year still to be counted. This is a significant growth of 18.9% since December 2019. All staff categories in the current year are ahead of recruitment target, reflecting changes to our recruitment practices and processes. As we approach 2024, the HSE has a critical task to undertake in consolidating an overall approach to pay and numbers. There are currently several categories of allocating and tracking employment such as agency, overtime, Covid, new developments, routine replacement and so on. All of these need to be combined together in one strategy for the purposes of both planning and control.

The public-only consultant contract, POCC, continues to attract both new applicants, numbering 146 at the time of writing, and conversions of existing post holders, numbering 379. That total of 525 has increased since the data were last collected and the amended number is now 622. I have previously referenced to the committee the need for extended services over seven days and I have commenced engagement with staff representative organisations on an approach to that. I expect this will be of some assistance in the coming months in the short term, and more dependably so in 2024. That concludes my opening statement.

Thank you very much Mr. Gloster. I now invite Mr. Watt to make his opening statement.

Mr. Robert Watt

Good morning Chair and members. Apologies for the delay. I thought the meeting was at 10 a.m. rather than 9.45 a.m. I am delighted to be here to update the committee on the progress of Sláintecare, particularly as it relates to workforce planning. I am joined my colleagues from the Department, Ms Rachel Kenna, chief nursing officer, and Ms Breda Rafter, the principal officer for strategic workforce planning.

As Mr. Gloster has mentioned, progress on Sláintecare implementation has continued this year. The HSE health regions implementation plan was approved by Government in July. More than 558 consultants have signed the new public-only consultant contract, including 157 new entrants. I understand that figure is now higher and stands at around 620. The enhanced community care programme continues to make progress. Nearly 50,000 patient contacts were made by integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, teams in the year to July, with 69% of patients discharged home. In the same period 310,00 people were reviewed by the chronic disease management, CDM, programme, with 91% of those patients now exclusively managed in primary care. We have seen the largest expansion in eligibility for GP care without charges ever undertaken in the history of the State, with free GP visit cards to children aged 6 and 7 commencing on 11 August and the extension of cards to those who earn the median household income or less commencing earlier this month. As the committee will be aware, at the beginning of September the free contraception scheme was expanded to include women aged 27 to 30 years old.

We are amid the largest expansion of the healthcare workforce in the history of the Irish State. In August the total workforce stood at 142,468 WTEs, equating to more than 160,000 people employed in our health services. This is an increase of approximately 22,500 WTEs employed in the system, or 19% since the beginning of 2020. This expansion includes more than 6,500 extra nurses and midwives, 3,000 health and social care professionals and over 2,000 additional doctors and dentists. Alongside this unprecedented expansion in workforce, we are also facing unprecedented demands. We have a rapidly growing population and one which is aging as never before and we are starting to see the impact of that right across all service areas. That increased burden is felt particularly acutely in the acute system. We see, for example, that emergency department attendances by those aged over 75 are up 21% in the last four years, while admissions from emergency departments of patients over 75 are up by over 15%. In relation to scheduled care, we have see a very significant increase in the number of additions to the waiting lists in the year to date. We are somewhere in the region of 15% to 20% above 2019 levels. There have been very significant increases in activity right across all aspects of the health system. The Minister is committed to continuing to grow and expand our workforce over the coming years, as well as ensuring that they work differently and more efficiently if we are to meet the growing and changing needs of our people.

We hear much commentary about healthcare professionals emigrating but the reality is that Ireland has both inward and outward migration of health professionals. Approximately 70% of our nursing and midwifery workforce entering the register last year were educated abroad. While Ireland has a relatively high number of nurses per capita among OECD countries, more than 45% of the overall nursing and midwifery workforce, as of December 2022, was not trained in Ireland. There remains, therefore, an urgent need to increase the domestic supply of nurses and midwives to meet expected increases in demand and to reduce Ireland’s reliance on foreign-educated nurses and midwives. Similarly, Ireland had the fourth highest proportion of foreign-educated doctors among OECD members in 2021, at over 40%. Clearly, our health service could not function without these staff from abroad. Given the enormous international competition for healthcare staff, it is worth saying that we are enormously grateful to them for choosing to work in the Irish health service. That said, it is also the case that continued reliance on healthcare staff from abroad is neither ethical nor sustainable. We simply have to educate and train far more healthcare professionals ourselves.

As I have said previously to this committee, with 1,403 medical student places available in the Irish higher education system in 2021/22, we have the highest medical graduate output per capita in the OECD.

As I said at a previous meeting of this committee, there were 1,400 medical student places available in the Irish education system in 2021-22. We have the highest medical graduate output per capita in the OECD. However, at 46%, far too high a proportion of those graduates is made up of non-EU students. The result is that many of those who graduate from Irish medical schools return home for their further training and are lost to our service. This historic undersupply of doctors within the medical education and training system has contributed to a situation whereby there is an overreliance on foreign-educated doctors and relatively few consultants compared with the situation among our international peers.

Working in close collaboration with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, has begun to increase significantly the number of student training places across medicine, nursing and midwifery, and health and social care professionals. We have an agreement in place with the medical schools, co-funded by the Department of Health, which will see an increase of 200 in the number of Irish and EU student places in medicine by 2026. This is a good start but, I acknowledge, no more than that. Between 2014 and 2021, first-year nursing and midwifery places in higher education grew by almost 30%. An additional 662 student places are being provided by the higher education sector on health-related courses in the 2023-24 academic year. As mentioned previously, this includes approximately 200 student places the Department is directly funding in Northern Ireland. Further work is under way to increase the domestic supply of healthcare professionals. A recent Higher Education Authority, HEA, expressions of interest process found that, with investment, an additional 208 doctors, 692 nurses, 196 pharmacists and 63 dentists could potentially be trained annually. This will require significant public investment, which will have to be considered in the context of future budgetary and Estimates processes.

Additional funding of €4.6 million was provided by the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, in budget 2023 for extra intern and postgraduate medical training places. This facilitated an increase of 133 specialist training doctors in the health service. A total of 24 extra interns were provided in July this year, bringing the total number of doctor intern posts for the July 2023-24 intake to 879. The Department has been working closely with the HSE and postgraduate training bodies to increase the number of training places and consultant posts available. The total number of interns increased by 12% over the past five years. The initial specialist training intake increased by 21% and the higher specialist training intake by 27%. The number of doctors in training in Ireland now stands at 4,167, which is an increase of 4.5% since 2021-22 and, I presume. the highest number we have ever had. The number of year-one higher specialist training posts increased by 10%. The number of approved consultant posts increased by 9% to more than 4,100 in 2022, with further increases in prospect for this year.

The annual intake to the GP training scheme has increased by more than 80% since 2015. The number of GPs entering training has increased to 287 this year, with 350 places planned for next year. From 2023 to 2027, we expect that between 1.5 and 3.1 GP graduates will enter the service for each retiring GP. While this replacement rate figure is a bit crude, it is a useful measure that shows the potential increase in GP capacity that is in prospect.

I have already referred to nursing and midwifery. There is more detail in the document provided to members.

In 2021, the Department initiated a project that aims to use scenario-based projections and modelling of health and social care workforce supply and demand to inform ongoing strategic health and social care workforce planning. A key element is the development of the health and social care workforce planning model, which offers an approach for projecting our potential long-term staffing needs for the health sector. This analysis suggests that, notwithstanding the progress we have made in recent years, we will need many more healthcare professionals in the future than the Irish higher education sector is currently producing. Of course, workforce planning is not only about training more healthcare professionals. We will have to do much more. We need to find new ways of working. We must improve productivity by working and training in different ways. We will have to maximise retention of staff. Finally, we need to move to a seven-day service right across the health system if we are to meet the health needs of our people into the future.

I look forward to engaging with the committee on these issues.

I thank Mr. Watt. I now invite questions from members. I remind them that substantive issues relating to spinal surgeries at Temple Street hospital will be discussed at our meeting tomorrow. The first speaker is Deputy Burke.

I thank the witnesses from the HSE and the Department of Health for their attendance and for the progress that has been made. There has been a huge increase in staff. It is a question of retaining those staff right across the board.

People here may not be aware of a really difficult issue, which is to do with radiation therapists. My understanding is that there are a number of units across the country that are currently not operational because of the shortage of radiation therapists. The numbers have gone way down, which, as I understand, is to do with the salaries they are paid. They are moving on to other jobs and the numbers coming through the training system are not adequate to replace those who have left. In Cork, for instance, there is a 48% shortfall in the number of radiation therapists who should be in place. The staffing level is only half what it should be. Are people aware of this? How will we deal with this challenge? A shortage of radiation therapists means essential radiation treatments will have to be cut.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have the detail on that specific discipline but we will get some clarity on the matter for the Deputy before the end of the meeting.

There is an issue in regard to long-term planning. My understanding is that the number of training places for the entire country is very small. Has there been engagement with the Minister, the Department and the higher education sector to discuss increasing the number of training places for radiation therapists? Even if we start increasing the numbers now, it will take four years to address the gap. At the moment, that gap is huge, including in Cork, where there is a shortfall of 48% in staff numbers.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not sure about the resourcing of additional training places. The additional training places on our radar for this year relate, as the Secretary General said, to medical and nursing, with some push to increase numbers in the allied healthcare professionals. Radiation therapists may be covered under allied healthcare professionals. We will need to check the position. I assure the Deputy we will have some information for him before the end of the meeting.

I have a question on long-term planning in respect of staff, particularly consultants, retiring from the HSE. My understanding is that much of the effort to recruit someone to replace a consultant starts only after that consultant has sent in notice that he or she is leaving three months or six months from that date. I have raised this issue on numerous occasions. If we look back to the former health boards, they always had a plan in place for replacing staff at least 12 months in advance. I understand that is no longer happening. It should be known from the date of birth of particular consultants and specialists that they will be retiring within 12 months, two years or whatever. There are no plans being put in place to find their replacements. Many of the smaller hospitals across the country are ending up with locums having to come in on a continual basis. What is the plan of action to deal with this issue?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

In certain circumstances, we will know a consultant intends to retire within the next six or 12 months because he or she indicates that intention. In some cases, we may not know until a consultant tells us he or she is retiring. There are different retirement dates on which consultants may go. Once we are aware, the process will commence as early as possible to find a replacement for that consultant.

My question is quite specific. Where there is an awareness that someone is coming up to the retirement age of 65 or 66, whichever it is, is the HSE putting in place a plan 12 months in advance to ensure that consultant is immediately replaced? Around the country at this time, there is a significant number of locum consultants right across the board, and likewise with nursing staff. My understanding is that a lot of these positions are not advertised until the person is gone from the workplace.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

As soon as the service is aware of a coming retirement and can plan for it, it will start to plan immediately.

I have not seen any evidence of that at any stage.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Mr. Watt has described the plans for increases in higher specialist training to ensure we have more consultants coming through. Since the beginning of 2020, the net increase in consultants in our service is more than 660.

May I have the figure for locums currently working in HSE hospitals right across the board?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

We can provide that information to the Deputy.

Locums are in place temporarily. They will move on to another job once it becomes available. It is hit and miss.

There is no guarantee of how long they will stay and then we are trying to get a replacement. It is consuming considerable time of administrative staff as well. Is sufficient forward planning being done? I fully accept that there has been a significant number of staff recruited over the past number of years, but I am talking about long-term planning.

The next issue I want to move on to-----

Mr. Robert Watt

Sorry, to add what Ms Hoey said, there were 364 locums as of this summer.

That is out of 2,500 consultants.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

A total of 4,300 approved posts.

It is still a very high number of locums in real terms. If long-term planning is done, this issue can be dealt with.

I will move on to the issue of planning for the winter months and the demand for beds. We have already heard from the private hospitals about engagement being too late. They are now talking about a three-year plan. What is the status of that and the issue with nursing homes and step-down facilities? As we speak, my understanding is that there are between 500 and 600 people in hospitals who should have been discharged. They are ready for discharge but there is neither a step-down facility or a care plan available for them once they leave the hospital? Where is the HSE in dealing with that for the winter months?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the private hospitals, I want to be careful because we are just at the commencement of a particular process within the procurement framework to deal with that. I do not accept the position that we are too late in engaging with them. When I first appeared before the committee when I arrived here in March, I made it clear that if we were going to utilise private capacity, we needed to make a firm decision on it and we needed to proceed to agree it. I met with representatives of the Private Hospitals Association. A number of my officials have met with them several times. The Secretary General and I finalised two positions this year. The first is that we were using an average of 160 beds a day from the private hospital sector since the end of the crisis or pressures of last February and we agreed to continue that until next February. We have also now issuing a framework to the Private Hospitals Association, on which it had a pre-procurement briefing last week, for the additional surge capacity for the period November to February, inclusive. We have committed to reviewing the efficacy and appropriateness of all of those beds and what impact they are having on our system at the end of February next year. On that basis, we can make a decision about a longer-term future or not, depending on what we need. I do not simply accept that we turned up last week, picked up the phone and asked them for beds. We are spending serious millions of euro every quarter on private beds and we are going to a framework to protect the public interest in it.

On the step-down facility with the nursing homes, for instance, last year we found that some of the nursing homes had contracted beds and in the first two weeks of January, those contracted beds were empty. I refer to the co-ordination about getting people out. People could not get into hospital because there were not beds available. It is about getting people out. Is a better plan in place now?

The other issue with the contract beds is the difference between what a public bed costs in a public nursing home and a private bed. Kilkenny is the best example of all, where the average cost of a public bed in a public nursing home is more than €2,000 per week. As for the average cost of a private nursing home bed, they are getting slightly over €1,000 per bed per week. There is a differential of 98.5% in Kilkenny. That is one example. We have had over 41 nursing homes closed in the past four years, with 1,200 beds gone out of the system. What are we doing as regards making sure that we can get people out of hospital into step-down facilities and the contracts with the private nursing home sector, if the beds are not available in the public nursing homes?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

With regard to step-down beds and their use, the delayed transfers of care that the Deputy mentioned have now gone from a consistent 600 plus in March to below 500 and are targeted to go further below that. That is the first point. That is consistent now. Some of that is utilised by the constant use of the expansion, by the Secretary General and me earlier this year, for the period of this year to expand the terms under which transition care can be used. It can be used for longer periods. Indeed, in hospitals that are under serious pressure, it can be used as an avoidance measure if it is appropriate to assist a person coming into hospital. All of that is done in the private nursing home sector.

Separate to the Private Hospitals Association, I am considering the approach to a long-term framework for step-down beds from the private nursing home sector, which is different to the private hospitals. That takes some time to get through. We had to get to the private hospitals first for obvious reasons. There is no shortage of focus on that.

On the issue of the difference between public and private costs, the Secretary General may want to comment. I have nothing to do with the pricing of the nursing home support scheme. What I will say, and have said previously, is the cost of public nursing homes is different. It is different because of staffing numbers, pay scales, and terms and conditions but it is also different because of levels of dependency and we are also the provider of last resort. Last Monday week, when the regulator cancelled the registration of a significant nursing home in a part of this country, it is the public nursing home service that has to step in and ensure the continuity of care for those people. I am not indifferent to the challenges for some individual private nursing homes in relation to the financial circumstances they find themselves in but, certainly, in terms of their utilisation and maximising their use where it is available to us, there is no shortage of that on our part. As I say, on the pricing methodology, the Secretary General might want to respond.

Mr. Robert Watt

Mr. Gloster has responded to the questions reasonable well. There is a differential. As Mr. Gloster mentioned, there are good reasons for that. We have done several pieces of analysis. A review was done by Mr. Tom Ferris, a former senior civil servant, to explain in detail the difference. There was another review done. It reflects the complexity of cases and the different needs that patients have. It reflects different terms and conditions in the public sector versus the private sector. It is a large differential.

The problem we now have is that-----

The Deputy has had a good run.

Can I just outline the problem? We have lost 1,200 beds. According to the CSO figures yesterday, more than 800,000 people are over 66 which means we will have a growing demand for either home care or nursing home care.

I thank the Deputy.

I am only saying we are not planning for it.

I will move on. Deputy Cullinane is next.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach and I welcome the witnesses. I will not be putting questions to the witnesses on events in Temple Street and Children's Health Ireland, CHI. We have the chief executive officer, CEO, and witnesses coming from CHI tomorrow. I would imagine that we will be looking to talk to the HSE and the Department in due course. These are very serious matters, as, I am sure, everybody agrees..

I want to put a number of questions, first, in relation to Mr. Watt's opening statement. I also have questions in relation to the cost overrun. We had given a heads-up that we would ask questions in relation to that as well.

My first question is in relation to the regional health areas. Mr. Watt mentioned progress which has been made in this space. I might put the question, first, to Mr. Gloster, because it is more for him. When will the new CEO positions of the regional health areas be put in place?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The positions were advertised by the Public Appointments Service publicly last Friday. A search company was engaged by the Public Appointments Service and it commenced its work three weeks prior to that. The normal time closure from advertisement to applications is approximately three weeks. The Public Appointments Service is currently working with my office and others to schedule the short-listing process and the interviews so that there is no time lost before the closing date.

Is it likely by the end of the year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I expect the selection of all six to be well done before the end of the year. It will depend on where the six come from and their contractual terms currently as to their notice period. My target start date is February and the target full switch over of governance is September.

Does that include a CEO for CHI or is that separate?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Children's Health Ireland is a separate funded agency that is funded by the HSE. That is a separate process.

With regard to the new public-only consultant contracts, the strong cross-party support which existed for that has certainly helped. It is very welcome news from my perspective that there is, as Mr. Watt stated, more than 600 posts which are now in place and 160 new entrants. That demonstrates to those who were sceptical that once the contracts were in place, people would take them up. Is Mr. Watt satisfied that more will take up those contracts? What is the projected number for year end, if there is one?

Mr. Robert Watt

There was cross-party support for this and the general thrust of that policy. It helped in ensuring that we managed to get an agreement and that we then got support for it. Ms Hoey can tell me if I am wrong, but I think 622 is the updated number that we have, which includes 169 new entrants. Ms Hoey and our colleagues are engaged in the significant process of transitioning people who have existing contracts and then bringing new people in. We do not have indicative targets because we just do not know. We are hoping to keep a steady 100-plus a month. We are seeing steady progress and we hope that will continue.

Mr. Watt is happy it is going in the right direction.

Mr. Robert Watt

We are very happy it is going the right direction. The contract is excellent and I think that is seen. Certainly, the people we all talk to who are looking at the contract see that it is not perfect, as no contract is. Of course, there are issues and significant discussions and debates between us and the representative bodies over a long period. However, it is a good, positive contract for people who want to have a career as public health consultants, or consultants in our public system, rather. We are very confident we will see it. The impact - Ms Hoey can touch on this as well – it will have in terms of the new roster and working arrangements, regarding working at particular times when we need people there-----

I need to move on to other questions. I am happy with those responses anyway.

I refer to the increase of GP visit cards, which is something I also welcomed and called for last year. I was happy to see that progressed eventually, particularly for the six- and seven-year-olds, for which we were waiting for some time. I also agree on not going further in that space this year, so we did not call for that in our alternative budget. However, we have to go further at some point, which means we have to build in the additional capacity. We need to accelerate the Sláintecare commitments in that space. I would argue also there has been no work done in recent years on expanding the eligibility criteria for medical cards – increasing the thresholds. That needs to be looked at because they are outrageously low, to be honest. The qualification thresholds are too low.

I will make a point because I want to get onto the issue of the cost overrun. The delivery of additional free GP cards for a greater cohort of the population will depend on the workforce planning piece of general practice. That involves not just training more GPs but also general practice nurses. We know we need to double that capacity as well. Perhaps a note could be provided to this committee on that area. If we are not going to expand them this year, it is on the basis that we need to bed in the existing ones and do more. Rather than answering that question, can Mr. Watt give a commitment he can give us a detailed note as best he can?

Mr. Robert Watt

We will come back with a detailed note on that. It involves, as the Deputy said, the GPs themselves and we are increasing the number of training places and, as I mentioned, the general practice nurses and other support staff to ensure the GPs work as efficiently as possible. We are very conscious that there is a massive expansion now in visit cards – over half a million – so that needs to be embedded so we can see for the future. How we can build capacity and new ways of working depends on how well that works.

That is great. Is Mr. Gloster in a position to tell us what the projected cost overrun will be by year end? A number of us asked the junior Minister in the Chamber last week but we could not get the figure. The most recent estimate up to the end of July was €700 million. There has to be some projection. Does Mr. Gloster have a figure today?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The Deputy is correct that the position at the end of July was reported at €700 million. About €68 million of that is associated with the hangover costs from Covid-19. Therefore, about €630-odd million would be core deficit. The majority of that is in the acute hospital setting. We can-----

We have a note on that. My question is if we have a projected figure for year end, either from the Department, the HSE or both.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is still obviously a number of months of accounting left to be done. There are controls that I have introduced since I took up the position that I have yet to quantify the cost of. There are two different figures because there is an income and expenditure accounting figure and then there is cash pressure. I would anticipate the cash pressure for the HSE coming to the year end will be somewhere in the region of €1.1 billion.

Will there be a need for a Revised Estimate?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is and has been a normal part of the process.

That is important and I will tell Mr. Gloster why. I got this under a freedom of information request. It is the minutes of the ministerial briefing from 23 March 2023. This is more for Mr. Watt because it talks about the national service plan, NSP, which we depend on, by the way, to ensure that it is accurate and all the information is provided. We need to understand what is happening in the Department. This was submitted to the Minister on 10 November. In the notes in the minutes of this meeting, it states:

A key element of this submission was concern with the level of financial risk within the Plan. A recommendation was issued to the HSE, under section 31(9) of the Health Act 2004, as amended, to amend the [national service plan] as follows:

a) To remove reference to potential funding shortfall or a requirement for a supplementary [budget] for 2023.

It goes on to state that the amended NSP was then sent again in March to the Department. It notes that it was shared with NSP contacts and the Department. It states:

A submission with a recommendation for approval subject to amendment of the NSP is being sent to the Minister. The main matters concerned in the letter to be issued are:

- A concern the revised NSP continues to highlight the material level of financial risk for 2023.

The witnesses can see why that would be concerning to me. We have the HSE crafting a national service plan, outlining the level of financial risk. It talked about a figure of more than €1 billion. The Department stated – it is in here as well – that it believed the real figure was somewhere between €400 million and €500 million. There was direction through the Minister that any reference to financial risk be removed from the national service plan and that was restated in March. I think that is an unacceptable way to approach this.

My question to Mr. Watt is: Was the HSE not right? Mr. Gloster is correct that it will be in the region of €1.1 billion. Mr. Watt’s Department’s estimation of €400 million to €500 million was grossly inaccurate. It was a mistake to ask the HSE to remove any reference to potential funding shortfall and the potential for a Supplementary Estimate, given that we now know there will be one.

Mr. Robert Watt

We accept this way of doing business and this way of budgeting. This relationship between the budget and the service plan needs to change. It is not fit for purpose. There are issues around financial management and financial control, particularly in the acute system. The Government sets a budget. The budget is the budget. That is proposed by the Government and approved by the Dáil. Everybody has to work within that budget. We have to do better when it comes to financial planning and anticipating the demands in the system. This year has been exceptional and the level of demand way above what we thought. The inflationary environment also pushed up particularly the-----

It is unacceptable that pressure would be exerted on the HSE to amend the national service plan to not make reference to the level of financial risk.

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have those notes in front of me, but I do not think the issue is to remove any reference of financial risk-----

That is what it says - "To remove reference to potential funding shortfall". "To remove" - that is what it is written in these notes.

Mr. Robert Watt

A funding shortfall is different from a financial risk.

No. It also states "or requirement for a supplementary [Estimate]". Mr. Watt is dancing on the head of a pin here.

Mr. Robert Watt

You cannot set out a budget in October and then say a few weeks later, after the Government has decided the budget, that you cannot stay within the budget. That is not how the system is meant to work. Everybody has to stay within the budget.

There are issues here around financial planning and financial control within the acute system, which the CEO and I have spoken about, and we have spoken to the Minister about it many times. We will have to do better. It is a wider issue and a systemic problem. There is a challenge always to try to meet higher needs, demands and prices, and we accept that. We cannot turn people away. We cannot not buy the drugs because they are more expensive than we forecast. We need to get to a better place where we understand and have a budget that people are committed to, and there is a risk around that which we accept. Mr. Gloster and I committed that the debates that took place between us and the HSE on the service plan will not happen again. The way in which this process is conducted needs to be better. We are not happy about it. The reality is there were differences of opinion on the financial risk.

I will come back on a second round. To say I am not happy with the Secretary General's response is an understatement. It is also quite mind-blowing that it is a figure of €1.1 billion. That is a huge amount of money for an overspend that will now have to be found. I assume it will have to go into the base now in health and that will cause problems for everybody. I will come back in the second round because I am not happy with the response.

That is a big gap alright.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations. On the last topic, all of that has been in the public domain for quite some time. It is a bit ironic to hear the Secretary General saying we accept that there are problems with the system for agreeing budgets and that they need to change.

The system is largely a result of the attitude of and approach taken by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, or DPENDPR as it is called. I have already said that Department seems to forget the "R" in DPENDPR stands for "Reform". The carry-on at the start of the year was outrageous and we ended up losing the chair of the audit and risk committee of the HSE, who was very clear about what was going on here, namely, the attempts to massage the figures and pretend there was not a €2 billion black hole in the service plan. The service plan was delayed for about three months, or even more, as a result of this. We saw all the back and forth between the Secretary General and the then CEO of the HSE. These are funny figures to a large extent. I would be surprised if the deficit at the end of the year was only €1.1 billion.

What we have to look at against that figure is the performance of the HSE on recruitment and the spending of moneys committed at the start of the year. My concern is obviously that patient services are going to be impacted. There was back-and-forth between the Department and the HSE in March where it was said these are the figures but patient services are not to be impacted. To make that happen is an impossible task given there was that level of shortfall. I am going to leave it at that. It is a very unsatisfactory situation. It is an entirely unsatisfactory way of agreeing budgets. Again, the approach and culture within the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has a lot to answer for. If we are going to meet the need for services posed by a growing population, an ageing population and a significant element of reform being implemented, such as reducing costs for service users, there will be significant additional cost involved in that and reform has to be funded. We have said that from the beginning with the Sláintecare committee. If we want reform we have to fund it. That is why the point has been made often about the folly of cutting taxes when we are trying to reform public services, because the public are better off having better public services.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If I can be of assistance in clarifying something for the Deputy, the €1.1 billion I referred to is a cash pressure. The actual deficit cost of funding that next year would be more than that and the Secretary General and I are currently discussing that.

Is there an estimate on that figure?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have an estimate on that yet.

Okay. The projected one was €2 billion. It was made by people within the board of the HSE who know about these things and it is worth reminding ourselves of that.

Moving to the question of workforce planning, Mr. Watt provided a lot of figures and detail in his opening statement. What I am not seeing at all is a workforce plan. There is much talk about recruitment, existing numbers and all that and that is all important stuff, but it does not constitute workforce planning. My understanding was the Department was to produce a plan by this month. Is that plan in place? Is it a document?

Ms Rachel Kenna

I will set out where we are with that. We are committed to delivering that plan. It is almost complete. We are in the final stages of it and we are finalising the projection models that need to go with each of the different disciplines, namely, medicine, nursing, midwifery and health and social care professionals. The plan is built on four pillars. One is about building future supply and we have alluded to some of that in the form of the undergraduate training places mentioned in the Secretary General's opening statement. The second part is about recruiting and retaining the staff in the health service. That is largely the work the HSE is doing. The third part of it is the planning, which is the long-term workforce planning that is reliant on the predictions and modelling we are finalising this week. The fourth part of it is workforce reform. There are a number of elements we are looking at under that heading, including advanced practice for health and social care professionals and the development of new and different roles in the health service. Those four pillars are well advanced. There is a lot of work commenced under all of those and it will be fully documented. The final piece is just the projection numbers we are finishing off.

Okay. I take it the Department is using the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, figures or basing its projections on those, which were out to the middle of last year.

Ms Rachel Kenna

I ask Ms Rafter to comment as she is very involved in the detail of the projection work.

Ms Breda Rafter

We are developing an integrated demand and supply model. Some of the inputs on the demand side are the ESRI figures, but we are also developing projections and doing scenario modelling across three parameters like-----

Okay, that is all good stuff. When will we see the plan?

Ms Rachel Kenna

We are hoping to finalise it and it will have to go through the normal approvals process with the Secretary General and the Minister. We are aiming for mid-October.

There has been a bit of slippage, then. It had been promised for this month. What was the reason for that?

Ms Rachel Kenna

The projection modelling has turned out to be more complicated than we initially thought given the data we are working from, especially with regard to the health and social care professionals.

Okay, so it will be some time next month. The third-level places are one element and the clinical places are another. What are the plans within the HSE, because that was a blockage that was there? What is happening on clinical placements?

Ms Rachel Kenna

I can start from the Department's perspective. Additional funding was given last year to work building up a framework for health and social care professional placements in the HSE. That work has commenced and I might ask Ms Hoey to comment on that. From the nursing and midwifery perspective, extensive work has been done. We have had an unprecedented increase of 225 additional places this year and clinical placements associated with those. There is still significant work required to match the supply projections we are giving. Ms Hoey may want to comment.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

We obviously very much welcome the increase in the number of clinical placements to grow our supply in future years. With nursing for instance, this year there is an increase of over 200 additional nursing places. Over the last number of months colleagues in the nursing and midwifery planning office worked with services to ensure clinical placements are available for each of those in future years. We have equally seen an increase in training places for a number of the health and social care professions. Again, colleagues work with services to ensure we can provide the clinical places to support their education, in conjunction with the higher education institutions, over the next number of years.

Has the HSE got over this issue about the difficulty in getting clinical placements at community level? Has it dealt with that issue?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

It is somewhat challenging, but we work very closely across acute and community services to ensure we can facilitate those clinical placements. Community is certainly an area we want to place undergrads in so we can secure employees for the future in our community settings.

Where exactly is the difficulty in that? Is there any union resistance, or an issue about supervision and so on?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

There is no union resistance to it. It is just around the construct of the services in community where there is a small number of health and social care professionals and we are trying to facilitate clinical placements within smaller services compared with students.

When does Ms Hoey expect that issue will be resolved? It seems to be a significant issue in ensuring the pipeline is clear.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

We continue to work on that and in this year's service plan a number of new development posts for clinical supervision have been approved. They are going through the process as well. There is that incremental increase in the number of clinical supervisors in addition to the number of undergrads coming through for placements.

All right. I want to talk about GPs for a moment. They are key people in the refocusing on bringing services into the community and I am concerned about the number of training places. I got a reply to a parliamentary question recently that showed that this year, for example, there were 964 eligible applicants for the GP training programme but only 286 of those were taken in. As of September only 146 remain in the training places. That shows only 15% of those qualified to go into training places are actually in them. In the context of a serious shortage of GPs, what are we doing about prioritising an increase in the number of GP training places? It is way off the potential that is there.

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the Deputy. The number of GP training places has gone from 159 in 2015 to 287 this year.

This is almost a 100% increase. The number will go to 350 next year, which is 60 more. This is another significant increase of 20% to 30%.

It is only a drop in the ocean relative to the number of applicants who are qualified to go onto the training courses. At a time when we hear so much about a dire shortage of GPs, the number that are due to retire and the fact that services cannot be provided in some areas surely this should be a priority.

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank Deputy Shortall. The increase in the numbers reflects that it is a priority and has been a priority. Dr. Henry knows more about it than I do but I am sure there are other opportunities for doctors apart from GP training. It would be interesting to know the number-----

I am talking about GPs-----

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes I know but-----

-----and the need for adequate numbers of GPs.

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have it in front of me but I would be interested to know the number of people who apply and who are not successful in getting a place-----

No, I am not talking about the numbers who apply and are not successful. I am talking about the numbers who are eligible. This year 964 people are eligible to go on GP training courses yet there are only 286 places.

Dr. Colm Henry

There is a shortfall for certain, even with the expansion of training places to 350 per year. We have a shortfall between the number we can train and the number we need at present. Some of this is taken up by the appointment and recruitment of 100 non-EU doctors for remote locations and locations for which it is hard to recruit, including Donegal and the north-east.

That is sticking plaster stuff.

Dr. Colm Henry

If I could finish the sentence before Deputy Shortall comes back. Our current proportion is 6.9 GPs per 10,000. The ideal situation is in Scotland where there are 9.1 per 10,000. This will be done through increasing training places. In the intervening period while ramping that up to 450 per year we are recruiting non-EU doctors for hard to recruit areas, particularly in the north east and north west.

I would like more detail on the hiring freeze for managerial positions.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Between 2019 and the start of 2022 when I arrived the highest percentage growth numbers in recruitment, between nursing and management and administration, was in management. It was quite a significant number. There were 1,400 new posts added to it this year.

This year, 2023?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

By July of this year there were 1,400 additional posts to the already significant growth. The figure of 1,400 was reached and breached by August.

The freeze was announced in June.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The pause on grade 7 posts and above was just one part of it. This had to accelerate somewhat because we had gone over the 1,400. It is not a complete freeze or pause. I have continued to approve posts that were in the category which are still essential jobs, such as disability managers in the community. The simple reality is that I cannot afford what I am approving. As the Secretary General said, there are control issues in parts of the system. We have recruited large numbers. We recruited everything we said we would and more in management administration. I am obliged to pause this.

There is a cap based on numbers every year-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

-----and when that cap is reached it is stopped.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is what we should do.

At the time of the announcement there was not a duration specified but that would imply that in the next fiscal year we begin again.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Because of the pressures that services are under, and because I was introducing a control environment after Covid when there were fewer controls for obvious reasons, I agreed, and the Secretary General was supportive of the fact, that even though I was introducing the cap I could still approve some of the management administration posts because they are essential to front-line services. There is discretion in the freeze.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is but it is limited and it is getting more limited because of the cash position.

Would it be fair to categorise this limited discretion as relating to existing services and keeping them going?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

How did the freeze impact planned services? By this I mean services that were funded in budget 2023. I could pick a number of services, such as genetics or diabetes. Let us pick diabetes. We have been trying to get the register up and running for a while. It would need a manager. A post was funded in budget 2023, as I understand it, but it is not an existing service. How would the development of this programme be impacted by a managerial freeze?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Every one of the programmes has different components and different component staff. It depends on the programme. I will give an example. Yesterday I had applications for 38 new management administration posts. I have refused all of them for now. I have no choice but to do so. I do not believe they will adversely impact on services this year.

Existing services.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In terms of long-term projects they certainly will cause pressure and slowdown. I also had applications yesterday for 50 or 60 replacement posts and I approved approximately 15 of them. I discern what is immediately impacting front-line services and what is not. In longer term developments we also have to look at how we use the management administration capacity that we have. We have a management administration capacity in the organisation of 24,000 people. This is a significant number. We are in the middle of changing the HSE nationally and regionally. There are opportunities in this to utilise, redeploy and use skills in different ways. It is a mix of all of these. It is difficult and I would not shy away from it. We had industrial action stood down at the last minute because of it and that has not gone away. It is a difficult and challenging environment. The management administration capacity of the health service is unrecognisable from what it was five years ago. They are all very valuable and serious people making a contribution but there does come a point when we have to measure how much more of this we can continue to do, as opposed to other opportunities and new ways of working.

Can I glean from this that where work exists for which we cannot have new staff we are going to ask existing staff to cover some of it to keep the service going.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It really depends on the individual requirements and jobs. They are all very different.

When does the new fiscal year begin for the HSE?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is at the start of the year. It is a calendar year.

It is in January. Mr. Gloster is not committing to looking at the freeze again at that stage.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to management administration sometimes it gets singled out and the staff can feel a bit isolated from the rest of the system. With regard to all of the grades, including nursing, medical, allied health professionals and management administration, what I have agreed in terms of the headline approach with the board of the HSE, the Secretary General and the Minister is that we have to approach 2024 with a full pay number strategy so the entire health service and all of the unions and representative organisations know exactly what the total funded workforce of the HSE is. We have to operate controls to work within this. Then there are opportunities in it also.

It is a significant funded workforce now. We are up to more than 142,000 full-time equivalents. It is quite serious. If we take agency and overtime costs this year in the Irish health service the budget line is approximately €330 million but the spend will be approximately €1 billion. There is management administration in this also. I have to take the totality and agree a controlled position with the board and the Department that everybody understands and that is there for all to see. When we reach the control, we reach the control.

I accept this completely. I have a question for the Department also but before that I have one more question for Mr Gloster. It is the control number the same for next year? Is it 1,400?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That will depend on what the budget position for next year will be. The Secretary General and I have made, and continue to make, the position to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Government on this. We have to see how this year-----

We do not know the cap number yet.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, we have to see how this year will close and next year will be funded. Within this the affordability of the cap funded number will come into play.

My next question is for the Department and I want to stay on this issue. In terms of bringing forward new developments and projects, such as the diabetes register, where will the freeze leave this work?

Money was allocated in budget 2023, which I presume will not be spent. How is that being dealt and what does it mean for budget 2024 if there is no realistic expectation those projects will be staffed in terms of managerial workforce or ICT? Let us say we have a special session on genetics or diabetes. We come here and see all the programmes and policies but if the people sitting across from us know that will not be staffed, how is that impacting the Department's work for budget 2024? What will we see next year for diabetes or genetics?

Mr. Robert Watt

As Mr. Gloster said, we do not know until we see the shape of the budget and what political decisions are taken on the allocation for health. Then the Minister will set his priorities and goals and we will have to manage within that. There are always trade-offs in the decisions to make so we will have to-----

What Mr. Gloster is saying is that any discretion the HSE has is being used to keep services going. That implies there is no serious staffing space for new developments, registries or programmes. Is the Department aware of that and planning for that, or will we continue in 2024 to be told about this or that new programme or policy when we know they will not move forward?

Mr. Robert Watt

We have policies and programmes across a variety of areas, which we hope to fund and staff. That depends on the allocation we receive.

In 2024, we probably will not realistically see any new programmes launched, though we might get the document.

Mr. Robert Watt

We have existing programmes and we fund those. We funded a lot of them with the existing national strategies but we do not know for 2024.

That is exactly right. We fund a lot of them. In 2023, there was funding for the diabetes register but it is not happening.

Mr. Robert Watt

I am not over the details of that. The Minister will decide the priorities given the allocation. Within that, we have to make decisions then.

Are the Department and the HSE not at a stage where they know the staffing and budget situation is such that there will be no significant movement on new programmes? Taking those individual programmes, it seems clear that nothing will happen in the next 12 months.

Mr. Robert Watt

We are not in a position to comment on that until we see the shape of the budget. When the budget is framed, decisions on foot of that will be announced by the Minister.

So we will still see documents and proposals launched but with no staffing behind them.

Mr. Robert Watt

We tend not to in the Department of Health produce strategies or policy proposals unless we have reasonable confidence around the funding of them. That is something we have tried to do in recent years and have deliberately scaled back some of those ambitions because we would have a lot of strategies-----

I totally accept that. The Department has the strategies and funding but there is a practical implementation that is not happening at a vital point in the system. The funding and policy are there, but the staff are not.

Mr. Robert Watt

As Mr. Gloster said, he has to be discerning in making decisions within the control framework he has been given. There is a challenge we face, given the overruns for this year. It will be a tight situation next year, even with the large and increased settlement the Department will no doubt receive. Given the wide variety of demands right across, there will be challenges. Decisions will have to be taken and we are given a political mandate. The Minister and Government make the decisions and we have to implement those decisions.

I welcome the witnesses. We all raise discretionary medical cards at these meetings from time to time. There has been some progress, albeit after a long haul. From the initial response, it appears the issues are being dealt with sympathetically but it has taken a hell of a long time. I do not know how many of the various patients in respect of whom I have made representatives have been dealt with. I am not certain but I am getting feedback and inquiring further into it. Suffice it to say, it should not be necessary to drag it out to that extent. This is a compassionate measure that needs compassionate treatment and for the same to continue in the future.

On budgetary projections, why should we have this problem annually since the inception of the HSE? Every year there is a shortfall in the budget. Why is there a shortfall in the budget? Is it because we do not explain exactly what we are doing when the provision and request is made to finance in this regard? Is it because there is something that recurs that we do not know about or is it that we do not project into the future? At the beginning of the budget period, do we not anticipate? Why does it always fall to a Supplementary Estimate, at considerable cost, because something turned up that we are not sure about, that we did not anticipate, see or envisage or whatever the case may be? That has to stop. If it does not, the whole thing will collapse because the public will become very suspicious and will react badly.

Every year for the past 12, 13 or more years, I have tabled a parliamentary question after the health budget has been determined asking the Minister to indicate if the health budget would be adequate to meet the requirements of the coming year. Every time the answer was “Yes” but the actual situation was that it was not. That cannot and should not continue. In any business where that happened, questions would be asked, heads would roll and it would become unacceptable.

Heads are rolling in here today.

Absolutely, and eyes are rolling to heaven as well. The point is we cannot run a show like that. If we attempt to run it that way-----

Mr. Robert Watt

I will make one point. The Deputy has been in this House a long time. Health is not any other business.

Mr. Robert Watt

People turn up. With all due respect-----

Wait a second, I have not finished yet. It is demand driven but it is possible to anticipate the demand to a large extent, with the exclusion of pandemics and so on. We understand that but we do not understand what happens year after year and why it should not be possible to put into the projections that, subject to X, Y and Z, this is what it is, so that instead of falling short of budget annually, there would be capacity to anticipate to a considerable extent what is likely to come around the corner before it does.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not want to run down the Deputy’s time but will make a point on the demand this year and predictability of demand. It refers to an international phenomenon, so is not just Ireland. This year, 80,000 people were referred onto specialist waiting lists who were not anticipated. That has happened in many countries. Despite the fact our efficiencies led us to take more people off than we have ever done before, we have ended up essentially in a flatlining position. That is indicative of one part of demand. The other part is our current deficit position breaks down essentially into three items. Approximately half is health inflation, running between 17% and 20%. We also have all the normal inflation people have around energy and so on. Approximately a quarter of it is relates to additional demand that was not predicted. The remaining quarter relates to what I would call good control and effective management of resources. Those are the three categories.

I ask that the experts making these predictions at the beginning of the year be in a position to identify the possibility of something arising and specifying exactly what it is likely to cost in the event that it happens. If it does not happen, so much the better. Why can they not project more accurately in a simple way so that at the end of the year they are on budget and had anticipated X, Y and Z, which did not happen but something else did happen so they are balancing our budget to a great extent? I do not want anybody else to waste my time, but I do not want to waste it myself.

Another issue I have referred to is the implementation of Sláintecare and the need to progress as rapidly as possible. We are making progress. I mentioned at the private meeting yesterday that I had family reasons to attend accident and emergency departments more than once in the past two months and what I saw was shocking. I saw accident and emergency departments of major hospitals where many patients were in urgent need of attention and clearly suffering severe pain. In the front row of these departments was a variety of people suffering drug and alcohol overdoses. They dominated the waiting areas to such an extent that other patients, young, old and middle-aged, were intimidated into waiting in the back row.

After the patients had waited for three, four or five hours, the limitation on the number of doctors available became very obvious and patients were told they would have to wait another five or six hours. That cuts no mustard with a patient who is in severe pain and awaiting attention. The patients in severe pain were patiently waiting. While patients will accept that other people are in pain as well and in need of attention, the people who were dominating the demand get attention by virtue of knocking on doors, calling on doctors and so on. There is a place for dealing with all that. A drug treatment centre is the place that needs to be used. A section needs to be set aside to deal with that so that when an ordinary patient comes in off the road for whatever reason gets attention. Even though it may be out of hours or whatever the case may be, these patients need to get attention because this is giving a bad name to the public health service.

The amount of abuse directed at doctors, nurses and attendants is appalling, which I have seen and heard with my own eyes. I saw a fight break out in the accident and emergency unit in one hospital where one prospective patient proposed to wrap a crutch around the head of another patient, both of whom had been admitted in the same fashion. This is a public hospital system. This is not supposed to happen there and this costs taxpayers' money. This is a waste of taxpayers' money to be entertaining people in that condition at the entrance to emergency units of public hospitals. I wish to register my abhorrence at the use of public money in that fashion. Maybe it might make a difference to financial projections if there was a change to the system.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We share the Deputy's abhorrence at the experience a lot of our staff have to deal with. The reality is that we have to triage everyone who presents in our emergency departments. As the Deputy will know, regardless of the presentation of different challenges and maybe wider societal problems that have nothing to do with the health service, as he pointed out, in respect of the first person that we would not triage, regardless of their conduct in an emergency department, who would go out the door and suffer a subdural haematoma, I would be back in here with his colleagues facing an inquiry into why my hospital did not respond.

I am not suggesting that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We can only deal with what is in front of us.

There are different places to deal with different types of patents seeking admission. If a person is involved in a drug or alcohol fight, the day before, the hour before or whatever then that is something that is not anticipated but it has to be dealt with somewhere. There is an appropriate place to deal with them and it is not at the accident and emergency unit mixed up with all the other patients who have all kinds of conditions.

It has been found that by measuring the various layouts in the various places that one has to resort to the private sector to find out how to get service unless one is prepared to wait 20 or 24 hours or whatever the case may be. The private health system is different. For instance, reception is one area and other areas branch off in all directions. There may be an option to go to a second floor if necessary but patients have access. There are no people sitting around in the accident and emergency area to prevent the patient from getting to where he or she should go to get treatment.

This cannot go on. Sláintecare is not going to be achieved in the way that it was intended unless something is done about this. I ask that an appraisal be conducted on the layout of accident and emergency units, how they are administered and how the system can deal with the abuse meted out to staff on duty. The most foul language and insults are hurled at staff on a regular basis by people who have nothing else to do except to create mayhem in the accident and emergency departments of public hospitals. That does not happen in all hospitals and I know of two in Dublin that have been affected.

I apologise to the Chairman for talking so long. The fact of the matter is our witnesses must deal with those situations.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I agree.

Maybe Mr. Gloster will respond to the issues raised by Deputy Durkan.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I agree that looking at the space, the pathways and how people move around and access buildings is a good part. In fairness to the range of challenges that have been pointed out of what presents in our emergency departments, we would look forward with every other organ of the State to participating in any alternative options. In the meantime, Deputies will find that at 12 o'clock tonight there will not be too many services other than emergency departments, and it is very hard to define, control and manage what comes through the door. That is why I absolutely with what the Deputy said about the experiences of our staff but the other options are not easy.

I ask the Chairman to allow me to comment again.

Dr. Colm Henry

We have done an analysis of the appropriateness and presentation and have looked at sample case histories that have been analysed by a panel of experts - both GPs and emergency department, ED, consultants. This in no way takes away from the experience observed by the Deputy of the abuse of staff but we have found that the great majority of patients who present themselves to emergency departments are deemed to be appropriate even Looking retrospectively at their views. There is some difference and ED consultants might feel that a higher proportion are not appropriate. To answer the point that was made, even in the case of those people who may conduct themselves poorly, it may be, in some cases, that there are toxicity issues or issues that have to be dealt with medically within the emergency department. It is something that is a huge challenge to our ED staff that they are used to dealing with day in and day out. It is not a simple issue of defining at the outset somebody for whom it is not appropriate to be there. In our winter plan we are trying to identify the proportion, perhaps between 15% and 20%, of people who could go somewhere else such as local injury units, their GPs or out-of-hours GPs and ramp up those out-of-hospital services so that we can leave emergency department staff to deal with the core issue of urgent and emergency cases, which is what they are trained to do.

Deputy Durkan has expressed a view that is out there regarding the number of challenges facing people, particularly staff in accident and emergency departments, and it is not just at weekends. We have had clinical staff before us and they outlined their own personal experiences and the assaults, etc. It is not a simple issue. The message needs to be conveyed that the HSE is considering the matter and trying to find a system. The situation is challenging but there are ways to deal with it. Maybe the HSE can look at how other jurisdictions deal with the problem. We are constantly asked about providing quiet rooms and having separate areas to care for people with mental health issues, etc. The HSE is considering the issue and perhaps Mr. Gloster will come back to update us on some of the challenges that Deputy Durkan has outlined. He genuinely outlined his experience and it is not something that any family should have to encounter.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is no disputing the account of the experiences the Deputy has outlined. The solution to it is where the challenge is.

I concur with Deputy Durkan and the Chairman on that issue. I am glad that Dr. Henry assured us that some work has been done to examine the matter but it needs to be kept under close observation.

I checked the INMO trolley count and learned that there are 124 people on trolleys in University Hospital Limerick this morning but we have not reached October yet. Clearly, the issues in Limerick are ongoing. We had a situation during the summer when the numbers were regularly at 110 or 120 people on trolleys. The numbers are quite concerning because we have not yet reached the very difficult period.

I thank both delegations for coming here and I have a couple of questions for them. Can they give an update on whether there are new upgraded or newly developed procedure protocols at the accident and emergency unit in UHL? Are there further plans to further develop the offerings, supports and services in Ennis and Nenagh hospitals? What is the status of the business case for the proposed second 96-bed block for Limerick?

I appreciate that some commissioning work has happened already in conjunction with the first 96 bed-block under construction. Is completion of that block on, ahead of or behind schedule? In essence, I would like a quick update on the immediate situation at the accident and emergency department in Limerick, and then an idea of where we are at with the capital construction and proposed construction of the next 96-bed block.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not want to go back to historical disputes about numbers between the HSE's accounting and the INMO's accounting.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair, I think it is important. I engage with the INMO directly and I have huge respect for it and what it does. However, I could not let people observing the committee today think there are more than 100 people admitted on trolleys in the emergency department in University Hospital Limerick. There is not. At 8 a.m., there were 39 people on trolleys. To be fair to the INMO, what it is tracking is that there will be people on trolleys across the house of wards for safety, and there will also be people in what we would call surge capacity. We would consider that relatively appropriate, like using medical assessment units.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Leaving the numbers aside, nobody disputes that University Hospital Limerick has serious challenges. There is some improvement but I would not trade off it because it is just too small. It is certainly showing signs of improvement, however. I will ask Mr. Sullivan to comment on the 96-bed block.

Mr. Dean Sullivan

We are on track for delivery in 2024 of the 96 extra beds to which the Senator referred. We have also taken steps and secured agreement through this process to streamline arrangements for a further 96 beds at Limerick in 2026. We are also exploring opportunities in and around Limerick. We are looking at different mechanisms that might ease the pressures on the accident and emergency department there to create additional bed capacity-----

Has the business case been approved for the second 96-bed block?

Mr. Dean Sullivan

The approach has been taken forward, so it has been signed off by the board and the audit and risk committee within the HSE. We are now finalising the paperwork associated with that. That has allowed us to go ahead with the streamlined approach I have described. We will then do any additional business case approvals in parallel with that rather than in sequence.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In order that there is no doubt on the business case, Mr. Sullivan is correct that the 96 beds are on track. The board and Department have agreed that we will utilise the existing works to put in place the foundation and first floor shell of the second 96-bed block. We will then be subject to the capital plan and Government approval for the completion of that.

I will turn to Barringtons hospital. I know a new facility is being built on the Ennis Road. How are negotiations going in terms of the purchase of Barringtons hospital? Is that still on the agenda and is it being considered?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is commercially sensitive. I hate using that phrase but it is commercially sensitive. Discussions are continuing with the Bon Secours group, which currently owns Barringtons. Again, the Secretary General has created a lot of latitude to explore whether there is a possibility of that contributing to the overall demands in the mid-west and Limerick. It will be subject to certain considerations and negotiations, but those are active. It is not a done deal.

I will move on to elderly care. My colleague, Deputy Burke, has asked a number of questions about nursing homes. Some 31 private nursing homes have closed in the past three years. Most of those are in regional rural areas. Very few of them are city based. Mr. Gloster alluded to this earlier, when he said that when these homes close or have difficulties and their licenses are then removed, it creates further pressure on the State-run facilities and community and voluntary nursing homes. Is an active programme of investment and supports being developed and rolled out for community and voluntary nursing homes working in partnership with the HSE? Has a due diligence been done on some of these facilities, which may have been built a long time ago and may need upgrading? Are they being actively engaged with? Will Mr. Gloster talk us through where we are in that regard? PwC has done a report on this and we know the population is ageing. The issue needs to be addressed in the short to medium term, as opposed to the medium to long term.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will ask Mr. Sullivan to speak about what we are doing in terms of constructing, refurbishing and building new community beds, and what we have done in recent times. Before I come to that, I will speak to the types of supports for nursing homes, setting aside the issues of finances which has nothing to do with the HSE in terms of setting rates. This year, for example, I have a significant concern about the connection between residents in nursing homes and the necessity, or not, for presentation in hospital. In the past four weeks, we have introduced a system of new community teams. We have developed integrated care for older people teams. Every person now leaving an acute hospital to go to a nursing home will have a comprehensive geriatric assessment, which will inform his or her care plan requirements. Our primary care and community care staff will support such persons in the nursing home the same as in their own home to reduce instances of future dependancy on hospitals. That is in terms of real support to residents.

In terms of the capacity challenge, we can only focus on the restoration of our own beds and the building of new beds. The Senator is aware of the HIQA regulations, as he and I were both engaged in a particular agenda several years ago on that story with regard to St. Joseph's Hospital in Ennis.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The regulations and standards, which are important, have doubtless meant that some providers have said it is just not viable for them to either continue or to meet them. In terms of the community bed profile and what we have done, it is interesting to hear what we have done.

Mr. Dean Sullivan

There is a comprehensive programme of bed construction within the community, with more than 2,000 beds planned between this year and 2026. There are an extra 500 beds to be constructed this year, 670 in 2024, a further 626 in 2025 and then 250 in 2026. As ever, there will be a balance in those beds between new and replacement beds because a lot of the existing stock is of poor quality. As far as possible, we are seeking to secure as much additionality as we can. Of the 500 new beds this year-----

That is great. Is the State or the HSE engaging with many voluntary and community nursing homes to support them in refurbishing and upgrading their facilities?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If they operate in the nursing home support scheme or the fair deal scheme, it does not matter to us whether they are private or not private. They are operating in that scheme. Unless we have a traditional funding relationship with them, we would not be in a position to do that. However, if we have a funding relationship we try to assist.

I had to speak in the Chamber, so I apologise if I am asking a question that has been raised already, but I will go for it. I have a question about the winter overcrowding plan. From media reports, it seems the plan has come unstuck as regards the arrangements with the Private Hospitals Association, PHA. Is that true? Can the witnesses clarify if that is the case? The Private Hospitals Association obviously says the issue relates to capacity. It obviously relates to cost as these are for-profit entities. They are asking for a two- or three-year deal, rather than the deal being offered now. I would like some clarity on that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I addressed that earlier with the Deputy's colleagues, and I am happy to do so again. I emphasise that we are at the commencement stage of a procurement process, so I do not want to stray across that either. Since the serious problems of last January and February, we have, with the support of the Department, continued to use 160 private hospital beds per day. That is outside of anything in the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF. That obviously comes at a serious cost. Bed cost in the private hospitals can be in the region of €1,500 per day. That is the scale of the cost.

That is per day.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes. I met with the Private Hospitals Association, as I undertook to do last March, to try to arrive at a position in which we would know what would be available to utilise for the period ahead, in particular in the winter. I met the association and I undertook to come back to it at the end of June with a position.

We were slightly late, by a couple of weeks. I would not say that was by any means a show-stopper. What we have gone back to it with, what we have put to it and what we are issuing formally next week is a procurement framework. The purpose of that is, first, to continue using the 160 beds per day up to the end of next February and, second, for the private hospitals to indicate to us in that framework how much capacity they would like to make available to us for the surge period of November, December, January and February.

To be fair, the Government and the Department have not, despite our financial challenges, put a stricture on me for that four-month period because we have an improving trolley position but it is going to take us some time to get there. The private hospitals have indicated this week, and they are entitled to their view, that that is not consistent with what they need or want to do or are able to do. Their preference would be to have a long-term purchasing arrangement guaranteed from us and obviously that would be connected to investment in building new beds for them and so on. We are not in a position until after next February to see what the impact and benefits of private hospital beds are to us outside of surgery - surgery and medicine beds are different - as well as the impact and benefit to the public interest and to our overall public hospital challenges. At the end of next February, we will make a decision as to whether we need a longer term relationship to secure private beds. We are spending serious amounts of money on private beds every day this year.

Could Mr. Gloster give a number for that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are offering to do that to the end of February. I hope the private hospitals might be able to revisit the position they have articulated publicly this week and work with us on that. We would hope they would support us.

The Minister for Health has said they should do the right thing by coming to an agreed framework and position.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, and they would be reasonably well rewarded for doing that. We are not asking for anything for free. What we are trying to do is set a predictable, average and fair price for the utilisation of beds to support our hospital pressure system, particularly in the area of medicine. We are not just investing money in that but clinical input and so on. I do not believe it is unreasonable, on the basis of the 160 beds we are using today, if we go out with a framework next week to guarantee those 160 beds to the end of next February and to allow private hospitals to offer what they have available for us to take up between November and the end of February. I do not think that is a completely unplanned arrangement and I am actually a little surprised because it is a much better position than last year.

Those 160 beds are on a continuous annual basis.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, they have been in place since last winter and I managed to get the agreement of the Department. In fairness to the Department, it quite rightly had to consider the cost. The Secretary General was very clear that I needed those beds to get through the various plans we are changing this year so we have kept them every day of the year and we are guaranteeing them until next February. There is no shortage of using them and no shortage of paying for them.

On the four-month plan relating to the surge, what are we talking about in financial terms?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Is this for the private beds?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are about to enter into a framework piece on the procurement side. I do not want to over-commit to that but, roughly speaking, taking the 160 beds plus what we would use in surge, and we would use more, every one of those beds would be in the territory of €1,400 per day. There are some variations in different hospitals at the moment. We are setting a framework position for that but we have to see how the process will work and which private hospitals will be able to come into the framework.

In that four-month period, you are talking about tens of millions of euro, I am guessing.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, completely. I would need to do the calculation but we would probably be talking about €25 million a quarter on private capacity use. I will clarify that for the Deputy but it is serious money.

It is serious. Over a year, that is €100 million.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is serious money. It is the shortfall in disability services.

The PHA wants to squeeze the HSE as much as possible. I am using that term but Mr. Gloster is not.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair, I have a very good relationship with the PHA and with the individual private hospital CEOs. All of my team have. I would not want to get into being pejorative. There is a role for the private sector and it is a feature of lots of parts of health and social care. I have a job to do as well and my job is to act in the public interest. Public interest does not mean providing a service at any cost. I do have to have some opportunity to control that and get into some predictability. The point that is at issue in the public domain is if we just picked up the phone last week and asked the private hospitals for a couple of beds. We did not. We have moved on to a very planned position. It is just not the planned position the private hospitals would like and I am not in a position to consider what they would like until next February.

What happens in a hypothetical situation where the private hospitals say they do not have the capacity or are not in a position to work with the HSE around the winter overcrowding plan? What happens then?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The public service is the service of last resort. We will get on and do the best we can for our patients.

That is not good. We should not be in a position where we have to rely on-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I presume the Deputy does not expect me to say that if they do not participate in the framework, I will go back and agree to a new price.

No, far from it. However, that scenario could arise.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Of course it could. That is market forces. My job is different. As I said, I would not want to get into being pejorative about anybody or any sector. The private hospitals have done a lot of good work with us and for us and I hope that will continue but I am very clear that we require a framework and a fair price set in that framework for predictability. We are offering substantial business and we are offering to continue substantial business. We have done that every day of this year. That is a very hard ask of the Department and of Government when given the position we have just had about the end-of-year deficit. To be fair to the Secretary General and the Minister, I went to them with a plan on this and they have not been found wanting.

The hospitals want more money, essentially.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I think what they want is a longer term guarantee because if they have a longer term guarantee, that would support them investing in building new infrastructure.

Will the HSE give that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not in a position to even think about that until the end of next February because I need to see what the impact is.

Getting back to the hypothetical situation Mr. Gloster may find himself in, if the private hospitals do not engage with the HSE in relation to the winter months, we will be relying on the capacity in the public sector.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Okay. That could be problematic, as we have seen before.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, but equally, at the end of next February, we have to see what the impact was of utilising the beds if they do come into the framework in terms of the positive impact on the public system.

Is the crux of this not the question of why we are still relying on private medicine all the time in the public service? Surely this is a public service rather than a private service. I am sure the PHA is making a lot of money out of this. We should not be relying-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We could have a lovely esoteric conversation about all the decisions of the past, the beds we have available, the demand we knew was coming, the demographic profile we are working against and so on. The plan for public capacity is clear going forward. Some of that is approved and some is not. I suspect there will continue to be a role for the private sector in the Irish health and social care system for a little time to come yet.

It is usually lucrative. Of course it is. I thank Mr. Gloster.

I welcome Mr. Watt and Mr. Gloster. I was listening to most of the debate but I was speaking in the Chamber as well so I was dipping in and out of the contributions. I will start with Mr. Watt and his statement. He talked about the 558 consultants who have now signed the new public-only consultant contract. What disciplines are lacking in that? Are there particular disciplines that are to the fore?

Mr. Robert Watt

The number I gave earlier was an old number. It is actually 622 now so we have recruited more on the new contract. The numbers I had in my original statement were for July and August and the latest numbers show an increase. I will ask Ms Hoey to give details on the breakdown as I do not have them to hand.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The figures break down into two parts. All new consultants who are coming in to work with the HSE are now on the public-only contracts. That is the full range of consultants. For those who are changing, it is across the spectrum. Primarily we are seeing those in anaesthesia, medicine and psychiatry changing but we can see the full spectrum when we look at those who are changing.

Is there a particular area the witnesses would be concerned about or want to see an uptick in?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

We will see 400 to 500 new consultants coming to work with the HSE on an annual basis. They will all be on the new contract. For existing consultants, each individual will look at the new contract against his or her current contract and its conditions and make an informed decision around transitioning and so on. For some who have a private practice in a public hospital at the moment, they will take that into consideration before they transition across.

I welcome that the number entering GP training has increased to 287 this year, with 350 places planned for next year. Do the witnesses anticipate therefore that the gaps around the country in both busy urban areas and some rural practices can be filled within the short term?

Mr. Robert Watt

We hope so. Obviously, there are people retiring as well, and they might retire in different areas from where the new entrants may end up. We need to balance that out. As we discussed earlier, the Minister and the Government are committed to enhancing the GP service and the number of GPs, general practice nurses and others. It is an ongoing challenge to meet some of those existing service gaps. As the Senator knows very well, they exist in parts of rural Ireland and in parts of Dublin, services are patchy; in other areas less so. It is an ongoing challenge but we are continuing to work as hard as we can to get new people in and provide the best possible service.

What percentage of doctors are part of the Westdoc, Southdoc and Eastdoc services in terms of providing out-of-hours services? Certainly in my own area of Moycullen, there are GPs who are part of the new 12 midnight to 8 a.m. red-eye service but who are not fully integrated in Westdoc. I think that is a deterrent to, for example, a replacement of a GP service in Oughterard, where the second GP position is vacant. Is this issue particular to my part of the world or is there evidence of it in other areas as well?

Mr. Liam Woods

My colleague stepped out for a moment and he alarmingly asked me to cover for him, so I will do that. I do not have the data but I think we can get it and return it to the Senator. He is asking about the engagement in out-of-hours across the country.

Yes. I believe if there are no out-of-hours services, it will be a deterrent to getting posts filled. Recently in Galway in the Portumna area, there has been extension to services, but in my part of the world, they are not part of the full Westdoc service.

Mr. Liam Woods

We will revert with data. We do not have the data with us.

We talk about beds and obviously beds are key as well as staff. What is the ratio between beds and single room en suite beds, if you like? What sort of percentage will we be working on? I suppose new-build structures would be predominantly be en suite single-occupancy rooms. What sort of percentage are we working off?

Mr. Liam Woods

The Senator is correct that the bulk of beds are not single-occupancy. I do not want to quote a number. I know we need at least 10,000 more single rooms if we were to go that direction entirely. Most new-build is single rooms. Not all new-build is single rooms because it is not always appropriate, but mostly they are. I am not sure if we have the number available here for that but we have a bed census that would tell us that. It is a much smaller portion of the total.

It goes without saying that the ideal model for infection control is single-occupancy rooms. With an ageing population and the increases in attendances, presumably the elderly, immunocompromised and so on would be prioritised for these rooms. I know retrofitting is difficult and my colleague, Deputy Colm Burke, referenced a hospital in his area with a large number of beds in one ward. Is that part of the ongoing improvement in HSE services?

Mr. Liam Woods

The Senator is right that infection prevention control requirements indicate single rooms are advantageous to support or assist in the containment of infection. Single rooms in public hospitals are used for those purposes, as well as patients who need to be isolated for other reasons or may be near death.

Mr. Gloster mentioned costs and energy costs. Regarding energy, is there a bulk purchase or is it based on individual hospitals or individual group areas? Presumably, as a large user of energy, the HSE has buying power. Perhaps Mr. Gloster can comment on that.

Second, when does Mr. Gloster anticipate the planning application for the emergency department in Galway can be lodged?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On costs, the substantial portion of our deficit is in the non-pay area and the substantial driver of that is in inflation and health inflation, but within that, energy. Contracts are negotiated. We increasingly try to negotiate contracts - block contracts, big contracts and big supply contracts. We have a variety of different arrangements. I will give the Senator clarity on what it is and what we have done about it, because we have many different services, in a written follow-up today that sets out exactly what the approach to energy is.

Regarding the emergency department in Galway - the Secretary General may want to comment on this also – I have said previously that in terms of overall capital development, there is little doubt but that Galway is way behind the curve. The serious challenge in Galway for many years was there was much debate about whether to stay on the Galway University Hospital Galway, UHG, site or go to the Merlin Park site and so on. That is now much more settled. The elective site for Galway is already identified – Merlin Park. Just in the past few weeks, the Secretary General agreed that rather than take each individual component capital requirement for Galway - be it a lab, a ward block or the emergency department – we would get a full project team with good, strong expert advice from outside as well as inside to the Saolta group and we would rapidly ensure the overall capital plan for Galway is set out in terms of all the requirements. From that, we would prioritise which part would come first. That is the best approach. Having been there and seeing it, you could not but argue it is in pretty bad shape in respect of capital infrastructure. It will get and is getting a lot of serious attention. I expect that to significantly ramp up in the next couple of weeks.

That does not the answer the question on when the emergency department-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not-----

This has been going on for years. I accept that Mr. Gloster was not part of the debate between Merlin Park and UHG. I was there with the then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, in September 2018, which is five years ago, when Saolta promised the planning application would be lodged before Christmas. These are the mixed messages we are getting. Absolutely there are different parts of the capital plan that have to fit together in respect of locations and all that, but if we are now going to delay the emergency department project – it is not just an emergency department; it is emergency, paediatrics and maternity – while we are looking at an overall plan, I would be very concerned.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In fairness to the Senator, I am talking about a period of a couple of weeks. I am not talking about delaying anything. I believe the answer to the question the Senator is looking for will come much faster if it is in the context of an overall plan where we know what the total requirement is and where Government can indicate what it is able to approve, support and fund, and then we schedule out from that. The emergency department is obvious. There was a temporary extension to the department because of Covid-19 and I was there. There is no doubt that the emergency department requires serious and urgent attention. I would be very surprised if, in an overall campus prioritisation, it is not right up near the top. However, I want to allow Saolta to do this with expert help and advice and I want to see what the comprehensive site plan looks like. We will then go after it. The new radiation oncology unit is already built there. Nobody is disputing that Galway needs serious attention.

We will break for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.40 a.m. and resumed at 11.52 a.m.

We are resuming the meeting. I want to bring in Deputy Cullinane.

I will be very brief. I will not be taking ten minutes, only two or three minutes. I want to get clarity on the cost overrun. I listened to what Mr. Gloster said. He said there are three elements to it. One is health inflation running at between 17% and 20%. There is the rising pay, demographics and all of those issues, and there is also the additional demand, which Mr. Gloster has said brings additional problems and costs. That makes up about a quarter of the cost overrun. Money can be saved with good governance, which is obviously Mr. Gloster's job, and that needs to be done.

The figure of €1.1 billion that Mr. Gloster referenced is on the cash side. He also said that the overall deficit could be higher. There is a responsibility on the Opposition in delivering our alternative budgets. We do not know what the figure will be. We have no idea. Could I speculate, and maybe Mr. Gloster can respond to this, that the actual deficit will be between €1.3 billion and €1.5 billion in terms of recurring expenditure that will need to be provided for in reality? Would I be accurate in saying it is in that space?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The cash position would normally be slightly lower than what ends up on the income and expenditure balance sheet for the year because there are maturing liabilities and so on. As I said, there are a couple of months of the year yet to run in relation to the cash figure, but if it were to turn out to be €1.1 billion, what we call the income and expenditure line would probably be somewhere in the region of about €1.4 billion or €1.5 billion.

The existing levels of service, ELS, for next year could also require an additional €1 billion, so we could be talking about the need for €2.4 billion in additional expenditure to be provided to health, even before any new measures are funded. Would that be right?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will refer to the Secretary General on that. In fairness, he has the overall health Vote. The HSE is one part of that. The Secretary General might want to answer that.

But it could be in that space.

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, that is on the assumption that the supplementary Estimate this year would be a recurrent or systemic spend. As we discussed privately before and alluded to earlier, the system is under enormous pressure in terms of the issues the Deputy has identified. The figures referenced do not include the measures that Mr. Gloster talked about, namely, the efficiency measures and the efficiencies that we are now driving.

I have one final question.

Mr. Robert Watt

That is only going to get a certain amount of-----

Have we underfunded ELS for the last number of years? Is that part of the problem?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think there has definitely been underfunding of ELS, absolutely. That is a problem. The Deputy and I have spoken about it before and I think we mentioned it. It is not just a problem in Ireland, but it is a problem absolutely.

That answers my questions.

Deputy Burke said he also wants to come back in for a few minutes.

On the issue of the elective hospitals and where we are with them, I know that it is with the design team. We are under pressure in relation to services in Cork. Where are we with the elective hospital issue in Cork? We have identified a site and a design team was appointed. Where are we with it now?

The second issue I want to touch on is that of HSE staff with long Covid. I know that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has only extended the period of time for payment until the end of October. These are front-line staff who have ended up with long Covid as a result of the work they were doing. What are we doing in relation to long-term support of those very dedicated and committed staff?

Mr. Robert Watt

In relation to long Covid, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform made a decision on the October deadline. I do not think that has changed. That is the position. As Mr. Gloster, Ms Hoey and my colleagues in the HSE will discuss, people are supported normally in any illness they may have. There is a supportive environment within the HSE and the wider public service for that. I am sure those supports will be put in place. As far as I am aware, there is no proposed extension to the October deadline for that.

Is the Department looking for an extension?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think we may have sought one, but as far as I am aware, there is no extension to the end of October deadline. In relation to-----

Can Mr. Watt come back to us on whether or not the Department has looked for an extension?

Mr. Robert Watt

I presume we have, but as I understand it, the decision is that the deadline is the end of October. On the two elective hospitals in Cork, the next stage is the detailed design. That is being worked on. Then we will move to detailed design and planning permission. That is where it is at. Mr. Gloster and his team are extending-----

Is there a timescale for when the design will be finished? Is it going to finished be by the end of October?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think it will be finished by the end of October, but it will be in the next number of months. We are expediting it and we will do it as quickly as we can. I do not know if we have a date.

It is a priority because we are running out of accommodation in Cork and we are under a lot of pressure. I am wondering what kind of timescale we are talking about before we go to planning.

Mr. Robert Watt

If it is okay with the Chair, we will look at the timeframes and come back to the Deputy separately on that. Rather than speculating now, we will set out where we are with the milestones.

Senator Conway was looking to come back in.

I want to ask Dr. Henry a question. Obviously, the Minister briefed Cabinet yesterday on the potential increase in viral infections over the winter. I want to check the readiness for that. How are we doing, vaccine-wise, both with the flu and the Covid vaccines? I presume we have plenty of stock of the flu vaccine to roll that out ahead of the winter period. In terms of Covid, are we still in the very high percentages of take-up figures for those who are eligible for the vaccine?

Dr. Henry might also update us on haemochromatosis. Has the Irish Haemochromatosis Association been in contact with him? He very kindly gave a commitment to re-engage with the association the last time he was here. Perhaps some of that is in train or possibly has happened or is in the process of happening.

Finally, when he is providing us with an update on vaccines, he might give us a few sentences on the HPV vaccine. How is the roll-out of the vaccine and the HPV catch-up programme going?

Dr. Colm Henry

On haemochromatosis, I engaged with the association as we worked together to produce the model of care some years ago. It was welcome to meet with them again and that will be part of ongoing engagement to ensure that we follow through on implementing an agreed model of care that looks to shift the care of haemochromatosis from specialist services to primary care, where appropriate, and also to bolster up specialist services.

The second issue raised by the Senator is vaccine for this coming season. Once again we see what we call a multi-pathogenic winter. In other words, a mixture of influenza, RSV and Covid, which is becoming increasingly a seasonal pattern although not completely so yet but it coincides with people being indoors and together. As we know, last year we saw a confluence of these three viruses cause enormous pressure on our acute hospital system and on general practice also. Regarding influenza, we are delivering the stocks of the vaccine now. There are two types. The injected vaccine for children aged six to 23 months and adults aged over 18 with chronic medical conditions, pregnant women and health care workers. The second is the intranasal type for children between aged two and 12. Our uptake last year among healthcare workers varied according to location and also the type of healthcare worker being considered. It was of the order of 55% for the influenza vaccine. Our uptake for people over 75 years was very high at 75%, achieving a target we wanted. Our uptake for children was quite poor at about 14%. Hence the move for the intranasal vaccine towards delivery of the vaccine directly to school sites for senior infants and for special schools this year. We want to see a significant uptake in influenza vaccine among children. There were about 1,400 hospitalisations for children last year with influenza but of course children also represent a reservoir for influenza.

Regarding the booster campaign, again we are directed, as with the influenza vaccine, by clinical policy makers of the National Immunisation Advisory Committee, NIAC. This organisation is familiar to everybody after the pandemic. We will be focusing on those aged over 50 and younger people of all ages with chronic underlying conditions or with immunosuppression. Of course those who have had Covid in the past three months or had a vaccine in the past three months have to wait for that three months to pass before they get another booster vaccine. We did see a differential uptake last year, with lower levels of uptake among healthcare workers of the booster. We achieved extraordinary levels at the beginning the pandemic of the primary vaccination programme of upwards of 90% plus for healthcare workers and for different age groups. I do not think we will ever reach those targets again. With each successive booster campaign, we see a levelling off of uptake to about 45% to 50%. There are other reasons also, not least that people may be exempt because they have had Covid in the past three months.

I want to thank Dr. Henry for the fantastic work he has done and continues to do.

I thank the Secretary General, the CEO and his team.

I want to address a few HSC issues first, beginning with the section 39 organisations. The Chair and I share the same constituency and we recently attended a meeting of WALK, one of the NGOs based in Tallaght which serves Dublin 24 and Dublin 12. The meeting was very well attended. A number of issues arose there. There seem to be children, teenagers and adults with special needs who qualify for a medical card and who seem to be randomly selected on an annual basis to have their details checked and to be means tested and have to go through the rigours again of whether they satisfy the criteria for the medical card.

Regarding transport, I want to mention the hoops that people have to jump through to get young children, adolescents or young adults or adolescents from A to B seem to be extraordinary. It is a cause of real frustration. There is a myriad of other issues.

One of the issues that I come across as a Deputy is that very often, the body most responsible for poaching section 39 staff is the HSE. This is a real anomaly and a serious issue. They are very angry but also very balanced and very measured people. I would like Mr. Gloster to comment on the section 39 piece and then I will address all my questions to him because I want to come back to Mr. Watt afterwards.

The last time Mr. Gloster appeared before this committee he talked about housing. It seems to me part of the workforce planning piece that one of the difficulties for nurses and other health professionals is the cost of accommodation in Dublin. As a result, attracting staff obviously has to be a key issue. Mr. Gloster mentioned how determined he was that if the Land Development Agency sought to take some HSE land that he would want to leverage that. This is a theme I want to come back to again. What progress has been made in this regard? What planning is being done and what kind of timelines and arrangements does Mr. Gloster see the HSE entering into?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Regarding the section 39 agencies, the medical card issues, selection for review and so on is a very big system and no matter what type of probity measure is introduced someone always falls outside of that in the sense that it is difficult to understand why we would ask someone with a permanent condition if that condition is still there. I hope we can continue to refine the process and I hope the impact of it is reducing but I certainly would not say it has reduced for everybody. I recognise it can be an inconvenience. Given the number of people who are now on medical cards or GP visit cards, no matter what measure we introduce someone falls outside that.

If the person's condition is permanent can they not just be removed from it? Is there not a system in place to do this?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am hopeful we can find a better approach to it. To be fair to the PCRS team, it has worked so hard this year to get up to speed with the new GP visit cards that are being issued to people and also in dealing with appeals. Ms Hoey is the former head of the PCRS and I think she would agree that no one would want to write to someone with a permanent condition asking them if they still have this condition. It is just how systems get calibrated. I am really hopeful we can improve on that. We are working on it.

Similarly, I think our culture of disposition towards things like the treatment abroad scheme is good. Since the Ombudsman's report we have introduced a much more robust system of review and appeal. We picked up 100 of the 130 refusals that were left through on review so we are we are trying to refine that.

Regarding transport in the disability sector, I have probably had seven different jobs that touch off the disability sector. Every year we get allocations for what we call school leave replacements for young people with disabilities leaving school. Trying to stretch those to fund the placement of transport becomes a huge issue. I am meeting with the Minister and Minister of State from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth this afternoon because the transfer function has been brought into their Department. I know that this is something that the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is clear on. Can we resolve it all? It is difficult.

On the point about the HSE poaching staff, the reality is that we pay better pay scales which is a deficit for section 39 agencies. That is currently the subject of industrial action. There is going to be to be strike action shortly. Our local offices are engaged with different agencies to try to mitigate the impact of this. Section 39 employers were, prior to the FEMPI period, predominantly paying salary scales similar to what we pay, in other words, Department of Health salary scales for social care. During the FEMPI period the funding was retracted, as it was across the State. When it came to pay restoration, because section 39 workers are not public servants like section 38 workers, they did not get the restoration. That is the subject and core of the dispute. To be fair, it is very active in WRC and I certainly do not want to precipitate anything here. An offer was made and is still on the table, as I understand it. At a meeting on Monday evening, the Secretary General and I were advised that it is a 5% increase with 3% backdated to last April and with a commitment to further review. That offer is still on the table and obviously I do not want to interfere with the parties' negotiations. The HSE is not the employer so it is not up to us to make the offer. However I do not want to be divisive by saying it is nothing to do with us because we are not the employer. We depend so heavily on section 39 agencies as providers, and I think we have to recognise them as providers, and I certainly do. I hope that the anomaly of our staff versus their staff will get resolved.

On the Land Development Agency and our engagements with it, I might ask Mr. Sullivan to talk about that. To be fair to Mr. Sullivan I am not going to put him on the hook regarding staff accommodation. That is some way off as the Land Development Agency has not even started building on HSE land yet but I think there is good engagement with the agency.

Mr. Dean Sullivan

The Land Development Agency is seeking access to some of our lands and we are seeking to facilitate that as far as we can. Equally there are opportunities for us to work with them in these other spaces that we have described as well so that is an ongoing issue at a local and national level.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

As regards the problem with the accommodation issue, reference was made to Dublin in particular. As I have stated, and this is not an attempt to avoid the issue, any response to that is a public-sector-wide challenge, involving teachers, gardaí, nurses and doctors-----

The HSE could take the lead in that regard. The point was made that the HSE caught the ball on the hop, in a positive way-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It was a fair hop and a fair catch and we are committed to trying it, but it is not a quick fix.

I get that. I will come back to the issue.

I have questions for Mr. Watt. He intimated there was an exciting development relating to the technological universities wishing to take some of the postgraduate medical training. Can he update us in that regard?

On medical cards, I am a Government Deputy and it is Government policy but I hear a lot of kick-back from GPs regarding people who have serious illnesses such as cancer, diabetes and so on being unable to get appointments for ten days, two weeks or three weeks because of repeat visits that may not always be necessary. How can that be reviewed and kept under control to ensure those who need to access their GPs can do so?

In the context of Dublin, Mr. Watt previously referred to two elective hospitals. Before we resumed the session, he and I had a private chat at which I intimated I would be raising this issue. This relates to workforce planning. If an unconscious person is picked up by an ambulance or another emergency service at the side of the road, I presume the emergency services bring the person to hospital. They do not know what medication the person may be on, whether the person has had illnesses or what his or her medical records are. There is also the issue of identification and whether the person wishes to volunteer for organ donation and so on. The hospital system can be thrown into a chaotic response in trying to determine how to treat that patient. As a result of a person going through that scenario, a not-for-profit company has come up with a card with a QR code. I have a sample one here. I know Mr. Watt has things to say on this. In essence, the emergency responders would be able to capture the details held on the card, such as the person's name and personal details, as well as his or her medical, GP, hospital and prescription history and other matters. What is the stance of the Department in that regard? What plans or response does it have?

Mr. Robert Watt

On the first question, we are still speaking to a technological university regarding its school. We are optimistic about that. It is a good innovation and a different type of programme. It is a new addition that will help with the overall issue of medical base which we discussed earlier.

I will return to the issue of medical cards in a moment.

As regards the electives, we have two sites that are close to being identified for Dublin. As the Deputy is aware, there are sites in Galway and Cork and two in Dublin. We hope to go to the Government in the next two or three weeks on that matter.

On GP cards, there is an issue in some parts of the country relating to delays in accessing a GP. We are aware of that. We discussed earlier measures to increase the number of GPs, practice nurses and so on. There has long been a debate regarding free access to GP care and what that means for demand and the increase. We have a significant amount of data and evidence on that and we might share that with the committee. We always have a concern about people who turn up at GP surgeries but should not be there. That causes delays for people who may have greater needs. It is an ongoing challenge. I will share with the committee the data we have on frequency and visitation for people who do not have a card and those who do. There is a need to adjust for age, conditions and circumstances. It is not fair to look at the numbers crudely and draw the wrong conclusion from the data.

I am happy to engage with the company on the QR card. If the Deputy provides us with its details, Mr. Gloster and I will ask our colleagues to engage with it. We are considering a virtual version of the card, an app, which will have that type of information, such as verification and basic details about people's recent medical history, prescribed medication, conditions and so on. The app will be a digital version of the card to which the Deputy referred.

Why is the Department considering the app? What are the advantages of such a model?

Mr. Robert Watt

We envisage an app that would have information on the health service and be able to signpost people to different services. It would verify the person's identification. If the person goes into hospital, he or she can swipe the card and the staff member will be able to see exactly who he or she is. It would mean that when people interact with the health system, they will not have to give their details again. Their recent medical history, conditions and medication will be on the app and that will save an awful lot of time. There are studies that suggest a significant amount of time is spent trying to find out information about patients who enter the system. That would be streamlined. It would be advantageous in communicating with people. Their next appointment with a GP or at a hospital would pop up on the app, as would recent scans. It is a matter on which Mr. Gloster and I have spoken. The benefits are incredible. We spoke about it here in the context of workforce and demand. This app could save time for staff and make it easier for the citizen to access services, have all his or her information in one spot and interact with the system in a more efficient way.

As regards Technological University Dublin, TUD, and the technological university model, is what we are looking at in that regard a medical school that would deliver general practitioners into the system or is it different from the existing-----

Mr. Robert Watt

I will ask Ms Kenna to provide a brief outline.

Ms Rachel Kenna

The proposal is in its early stages. My understanding is that it is a medical school that would train undergraduate doctors. They will make a decision thereafter in terms of specialist training, The school would provide basic training. One of the attractions of this model is that there is a significant humanitarian proposal with it. There would be a reciprocal arrangement to train doctors from other countries. The university is considering African and South American nations. That is an attractive aspect of the proposal. There is a significant amount of detail and there has been engagement with the Irish Medical Council, which has been open to the discussions and given a list of criteria that will have to be met in terms of the training standards and regulations. It is currently ongoing.

I thank Deputy Shortall for giving me latitude.

On the final point, it would be interesting to know how the proposal stacks up financially. Will it still involve huge fees?

I wish to return to the issue of the shortfall in the health budget and the probable situation at the end of the year. I ask Mr. Watt to clarify a point he made earlier. Did he state we are probably looking at a shortfall in the region of €2.5 billion at the end of the year?

Mr. Robert Watt

No. I stated that much of the €1 billion plus in terms of this year will be recurring. We are still working with Mr. Gloster and the team on that but-----

From where did the figure of €1 billion plus come?

Mr. Robert Watt

The likely overall Supplementary Estimate requirement for this year will be €1 billion plus. Mr. Gloster referred earlier to the cash and the income and expenditure. Deputy Cullinane then asked about the existing level of service increase for next year. Again, that will be a significant increase of 4% or 5%, given the increase in staff and inflation costs.

I heard what was said about the cash position at the end of the year. What is the overall deficit projected for the end of the year?

Mr. Robert Watt

We have different numbers, whether it is cash or income and expenditure. There are different measures. Mr. Gloster stated it is €1.2 billion or €1.3 billion on the income and expenditure and €1 billion or €1.1 billion on cash. The numbers are moving. There are numbers for the HSE and there are savings elsewhere within the-----

What does Mr. Watt expect the deficit to be?

Mr. Robert Watt

The working assumption has been approximately €1 billion. We had €700 million to the end of July and August. That type of number is what we are expecting.

Mr. Watt made the point that the Government has to do better when it comes to financial planning. What did he mean by that?

Mr. Robert Watt

It is not the Government per se; it is the system - ourselves and the HSE - that needs to do better in terms of trying to understand the factors that are driving up cost increases. We had an inflationary environment this year that is very different from what we had before. We also had much stronger demand than anticipated. That is due to two factors. It is due to the long-running impact relating to demography, particularly over-75s, which has been coming for a long time, and also-----

We have known that for a long time.

Mr. Robert Watt

-----in terms of Covid. We estimate that approximately 700,000 patient interactions did not happen during Covid and we are now starting to see many of those coming through. The additions to the waiting list for the year to date were 15% to 20%. Almost 200,000 more people than we anticipated have come onto the waiting list, so------

The demographic figures are not exactly a surprise. We need to cater for those and-----

Mr. Robert Watt

The demographic figures are surprising in terms of the impact of the number of people over 75 and the number over 80. The amount of healthcare they are consuming is a surprise in Ireland and across the developed world.

This is not a problem that is unique to us. It is happening everywhere now.

One of the issues that has been talked about quite a bit in respect of financial planning and having more accurate figures is the need for an integrated financial system. What are we doing in that regard?

Mr. Robert Watt

We are delivering it. My HSE colleagues will correct me if I am wrong but in the eastern part of the country, it was introduced in July. That is a large part of the estate. During 2024 and 2025, we will have complete roll-out of the system. That will help in terms of visibility and better financial information. It will enable leaders within the HSE, managers in the regional health areas, RHAs, to have greater visibility to drill down and understand what is going on. That will definitely happen. It is something we have been talking about and for which we have been planning and preparing for a long time. It is now becoming a reality and will be across the service in the coming year.

I am trying to understand why that has not been provided. Organisations that are a fraction of the size of the HSE have integrated financial management systems. It is another thing that is pretty basic in respect of health. When will the full system be in place?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have an exact date but I think it will be in place over the period from 2024 to 2025.

I will move on to the issue of the arrangements with the private hospitals. We have heard there are 160 beds currently involved in that arrangement. I was surprised because I did not realise there was that level of agreement for the provision of beds. By my estimation, we are spending in excess of €87 million per year on private hospital beds, which is an extraordinary figure. What is the occupancy rate of those beds?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have the exact figures because different hospitals have different arrangements and pathways. In Galway, for example, the arrangement is with the Bon Secours Health System and the Galway Clinic.

Do we have an overall occupancy rate?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not. I will get the Deputy a top occupancy rate. We generally use most of those beds and we pay for what we are using. We use between 150 and 160 beds per day. We are certainly not buying beds that are lying there idle for any period of time.

How many beds additional to the 160 is Mr. Gloster talking about for the surge capacity during the winter months?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would envisage an amount between 200 and 240.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is what we anticipate. It depends on how RSV happens and when it comes, how the flu goes and what any Covid-19 surge or wave might look like over the period. The whole idea of the framework is that we want to see what the private hospitals can give us that we can use in that period. I would have thought that at the highest, we will be seeking between 220 and 250 beds.

That is a total figure that includes the existing 160 beds.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is. The framework would allow us to flex in that regard.

There is a principle to which the health service operates that I cannot understand. It is outsourcing and buying private capacity, whether with beds, staff or services generally. This is a trend we have seen in recent years and it seems to be accelerating. Outsourcing has been going on at a gallop. At what point will the HSE call a stop to that and start investing in direct services? The current service plan does not provide for any net new beds. Why is that the case? We are going to continue to be dependent on private beds if we do not provide for public beds.

We will have four elective hospitals.

I am talking about this year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are in the invidious position of having to balance the time it takes to develop those resources and the need that is at the door today. In respect of the elective hospitals, as Deputy Lahart has pointed out, that is the strategy to move on in terms of the capacity. In the shorter term, and in response to the Deputy saying that no new beds are available, I can only build what has been funded to date and we are doing that. Mr. Sullivan can talk about what is left to be built and finished out this year.

The real plan, which is not in the service plan yet because we have to seek the Government approval on which it depends, is for 1,500 beds in the public system. I cannot plan to build those unless that plan is approved and funded by the Government.

I appreciate that. When will we hear the site of the Dublin elective hospital? The Chairman told me I had ten minutes.

The Deputy's ten minutes are up. She is asking a question now-----

In the 30 seconds I have left, when will we hear the announcement of the site for the Dublin elective hospital?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The Secretary General might wish to come in.

Mr. Robert Watt

The intention is to bring the proposal to Government in the coming weeks. The Government will make an announcement thereafter depending on the decision it makes.

That will happen in the next couple of weeks.

Mr. Robert Watt

It probably will not happen until after the budget at this stage.

I have only one or two questions. I will try to keep my contribution short. I am happy to see the workforce has increased by 19% since the end of August. It is powerful to hear that all categories are ahead of target. That represents numbers within the HSE and section 38 agencies. Will the witnesses provide a percentage for the workforce within the mental health sector?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The director of HR would have the breakdown by care group.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

For mental health services, at the beginning of 2020, 9,967 whole-time equivalent staff were employed. That has now increased to 10,625, which is an increase of 6.6%. I can provide further detail to the Senator.

Would that be okay?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Of course.

If Ms Hoey could send me some detail in that regard, it would be helpful. With regard to the public only consultants contract, POCC, it was reported previously that over 50% of Irish Medical Organisation, IMO, consultants would not switch and over 60% of junior doctors said they would not take up the contract. Since then, have prospects improved? I apologise if that question has already been asked. I was in and out of the meeting this morning.

Mr. Robert Watt

That is no problem. We are happy so far with the uptake. Ms Hoey and her team are pushing ahead with recruitment campaigns, onboarding people and having those conversations about their work plans and so on. We are confident at this stage. We will review the situation in the new year and see where we are. We will then assess the situation particularly in respect of the impact the new contract is having. It is not just about the numbers. We must also consider the impact in terms of rosters and the evening and Saturday working and so on. That is a key element of the contract. We are happy so far. We want to see more and we want everybody to move to the new contract because that is what it is about. It is about having people on these contracts. They are primarily for those in public hospitals and people can work in their own time in private hospitals. It is, however, a fundamental change. We are generally happy but would like to see the uptake of the contract accelerating over the next few months and into next year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will give the Senator an indication of the pace of that. Figures from recent weeks show that uptake has already increased. We are now at 622. The numbers are growing and that is for both new consultants coming in and other consultants switching over. The situation is certainly not reflective of what the surveys with the representative bodies said at the start. However, we are conscious there is still a way to go.

With regard to extending services to seven days, Mr. Gloster said in his opening statement that engagement has commenced. People are left waiting over the weekend to access the likes of psychiatry, psychology and counselling services, which are critical supports. These are our most vulnerable people and they cannot afford to wait over the weekend in the hope of securing an appointment early the following week. Will Mr. Gloster provide some insight into what is being discussed or what a seven-day service might look like, particularly for mental health services?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is a three-step approach. We are starting with the pressure that is on emergency departments and the outflow from hospitals, which does include mental health presentations. There is a three-step approach to securing an extended week of what we might call "normal service" as opposed to just on-call service. We need to finish some discussions with the unions but we have put to them that we would like to invite staff to voluntarily change from a five-over-five contract to a five-over-seven contract. That would allow them to be rostered over the seven days.

That is the first step. The second step is to secure agreement to proceed with including in the contract terms and conditions of all new employees of the health service, regardless of who they are and including me, the option for the service to deploy them on a five-over-seven basis, subject to fair rostering. Depending on whether we have enough in that, the third would involve some previous public sector agreements that allowed for changes to be made. We would have to negotiate how best to implement those but I hope that we can get there between new recruitment and voluntary arrangements. The one challenge the unions probably articulate most to me is that, if we want a seven-day service, we will need additional staff. That is, of course, correct but it is not the only part. I believe there is a benefit to the public in utilising what we currently have better over seven days rather than over five days in the case of a number of disciplines. That is the approach. To be fair, it is a conversation and will come down to individual disciplines having different views but I am confident that we will get closer than people thought we might. That will include the capacity of community services, including mental health services.

Before we finish, I have just one question. Both organisations referred to issues around senior citizens and so on. It was not touched on in any of the questions but, in community healthcare organisation, CHO, area 7, there is a difficulty in respect of occupational therapists. This is key in releasing people from hospitals, step-down beds and so on. It is about getting those basic services. Does that problem relate to a shortage of occupational therapists? Those in CHO area 7 are telling people to go to the private sector in that regard. Is it a problem across the board or is it just in that specific area?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to occupational therapists, the problem is not with them. The problem is that we have expanded our development a great deal in recent years, including with the enhanced community care we discussed here in June. I do not know of any part of the health or social care service that does not now want to operate on a multidisciplinary team basis. That means that every team, every discipline and every service wants an occupational therapist, a physiotherapist and a speech and language therapist, and rightly so. The options are great. Our greatest deficit in the therapy profile at the moment is not actually in primary care, community care or hospitals. Even though those areas are under pressure, our greatest deficit is in disability services. Our community disability network teams are running with an average staffing shortfall of 34%. That is where the therapies are most pressed. There is a big demand for occupational therapists and the supply does not match that demand. That is really it.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I will add to what Mr. Gloster has said that, in the last three years, the number of occupational therapists has increased by 23%, from 1,600 to just under 2,000. I can come back on the question of CHO 7 specifically. We have seen a significant increase but, nevertheless, we are trying to meet a significant demand.

It is one of the big issues that families are raising with regard to basic services. If you cannot get an occupational therapist, you are not going to get the toilet, the rails and so on. I apologise to the staff for keeping them over time. I thank the representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE for their continuing engagement with the committee on the important matter of the implementation of Sláintecare reforms. The committee will continue to closely monitor progress on this matter and looks forward to further engagement with the Department and the HSE.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.34 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 28 September 2023.
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