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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 2023

Review of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services: Discussion

Deputy Ward is substituting for Deputy Cullinane. He is very welcome. Apologies have been received from Senator Hoey. Before we get to the main item on today's agenda, minutes of the committee meetings of 3 and 4 October have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to consider the final report of the Mental Health Commission on the provision of child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in the State. The report, which was published last July, identified significant concerns with the services and made 49 recommendations. This meeting will be divided into two sessions. The joint committee will first meet with representatives from the Mental Health Commission following which we will meet representatives from the HSE.

To commence the committee's consideration of that matter, I am pleased to welcome from the Mental Health Commission Dr. John Hillery, chairperson, Mr. John Farrelly, chief executive, and Professor Jim Lucey, inspector of mental health services.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it, identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I again remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of the report on CAMHS, I invite Dr. Hillery to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Mental Health Commission. He is very welcome.

Dr. John Hillery

I thank members for being here. Yesterday was a busy and long day for them all.

It is very good that the committee is addressing this report. From our point of view and that of many members of the public, it is one of the most important reports to come out in the past few years as regards mental health. It is especially important, as will be seen from the report, that the majority of health problems suffered by people under a certain age are mental health problems. That brings us back to another issue I have addressed previously but which we will probably not address today, namely, the need for parity of esteem between physical and mental health as regards services and resourcing.

The report, Independent Review of the Provision of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS) in the State by the Inspector of Mental Health Services, is now known as the CAMHS report so I will address it as such. When I have completed our opening statement, I will turn to Professor Lucey who will be very helpful to the committee regarding the importance of regulation, standard setting and inspection in provision of health services in general, and specifically as regards why we are here today.

As the Chairman kindly said, I am accompanied by Mr. Farrelly, chief executive of the commission, and Professor Lucey, who is just a month in the job as Inspector of Mental Health Services. That brings me to the fact that Dr. Finnerty, who worked long and hard on producing this report, retired a month ago and so is not present. To avoid confusion, when I talk about the inspector, I will be talking about Professor Lucey and when I talk about the report and the previous inspector, I will say Dr. Finnerty, if that is okay.

The main point the commission wants to make is that the implementation of this report cannot wait. As members know, there are 49 recommendations, most of which do not apply to the Mental Health Commission but to outside bodies. There needs to be independent monitoring of their implementation. That implementation needs to be rapid and independent monitoring should be established immediately. Dr. Finnerty has said, and we agree with her, that the Mental Health Commission has the skills and resources to do this. The commission should be asked to do this and be given the powers to do so. We also say, along with Dr. Finnerty, that the regulation of CAMHS needs to be put in place immediately. In the new mental health Bill, which it is to be hoped is coming in the next Dáil session, there will be moves for that to happen but we do not think it can wait. Under the current legislation, it can happen now. We have asked the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, and the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, to expedite this to allow the Mental Health Commission do this straightaway so we can set standards and inspect them.

I will talk briefly about the role of the commission. It now has two main responsibilities. The long-term one has been the regulation of inpatient mental health services throughout the State. More recently, we are also responsible for the Decision Support Service, which is not why we are here today but I know members will all be well aware of that. We are the regulator for mental health services in Ireland and an independent statutory body established under the Mental Health Act 2001. Our mandate under the Act is to promote, encourage and foster the establishment and maintenance of high standards and good practices in the delivery of mental health services and to protect the interests of persons admitted and detained under the 2001 Act.

The next matter seems to have come as a shock to people recently when the inspector referenced it on the radio but it is a fact. We can currently only inspect and regulate approximately 1% of mental health services in the State because we are limited to adult and children inpatient services. As members will all be aware, most treatment of mental health problems is now community-based, which goes from support services through to general practice and mental health services in the community. However, we have no remit at present under the Act to inspect them. That means that every other mental health service in the State other than residential inpatient ones, including community CAMHS, is not regulated. Most of the professionals who work in those services are regulated under the various regulatory bodies that apply but the systems and premises, and the providers responsible for those systems and premises, are not. As I said, this seems to have come as a shock to people when Professor Lucey said it on radio recently but it is an important fact.

The Inspector of Mental Health Services has the statutory power to visit, inspect and report on any premises where a mental health service is being provided. However, neither the inspector or the commission has the powers to set standards and ensure services comply with these by way of monitoring and enforcement, except the 1% I referenced. In her report, Dr. Finnerty recommends that the commission should be given statutory powers to immediately work with stakeholders and clinical staff to develop standards and rules for the provision of CAMHS community services in Ireland. As I said, I will ask Professor Lucey to address that issue. The general scheme to amend the 2001 Act, approved in July 2021, set out the intention of the State to expand the regulation of mental health services beyond inpatient services and into the community. That should imply that child and adolescent psychiatric and mental health services would also be regulated, but they are not at the moment.

I will probably be stating the obvious regarding the report but I will state it anyway. CAMHS provide assessment and treatment for young people up to 18 years of age who experience moderate or severe mental illness. CAMHS treat depression, problems with food and eating, self-harm, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, psychosis, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and anxiety, among other difficulties. CAMHS, therefore, is focused on the more serious end of mental healthcare for young people. Members will see that one of the issues raised in Dr. Finnerty's report is there does not seem to be any triage system for parents, teachers or community workers, if they are worried about a child or adolescent, as to where they should look for help. Many people end up going to their general practitioner, who is in an unequal position and ends up referring them to CAMHS where they may be on a waiting list for those services, even though that may not be what they need. That is one of the issues Dr. Finnerty addressed in the report and one that needs change.

Sadly and alarmingly, members will recall that when we launched this report, Dr. Finnerty said she could not provide an assurance to all parents in all parts of Ireland that their children would have access to safe, effective and evidence-based mental health services. Some of the findings in the review included gaps in governance, both at corporate and clinical level; poor risk identification and management, with serious risks unidentified and poor or no response when they were identified; and a wide variation in scope and capacity of CAMHS teams, resulting in “a postcode lottery” for parents and young people. There are many reasons for this. Some are about staffing levels and some about philosophies in each team. One of the messages that needs to come out of this report is the lack of uniformity throughout the country as to how these services are driven, which is one of the key things that needs to change. That leads to the next finding, namely, a lack of clinical leadership at community healthcare organisation, CHO, and national level resulting in some unsafe practices, inconsistent care and failure to adhere to standards and guidelines. Even though standards are not set by the Mental Health Commission, there are internationally agreed standards on approaches to certain problems that present in childhood and adolescence. It was, and is, worrying that the inspector found this was not always the case in various places throughout the country. It is important to say that this is not just between CHOs. Dr. Finnerty found issues within CHOs too, with differences in how these were approached.

Members may remember that Dr Finnerty recommended that a comprehensive strategy for CAMHS and all other mental health services for children be prepared and approved by the HSE board as a matter of urgency. Despite targeted improvements by the HSE to solve some of the issues, Dr Finnerty stated that it is a major concern that there are ongoing and serious deficits in CAMHS, which are increasing the risk to children and young people.

Another issue was that of access to CAMHS or to any mental health supports for a child. Members probably know that Dr. Finnerty interviewed many children, adolescents and parents when compiling the report, in addition to community workers who were working with troubled adolescents and children. Access is a key issue and a cause of profound distress and frustration to parents who “expressed concern [at] how their child deteriorated while waiting for an assessment.” Dr. Finnerty went on to say, “Parents did not know where they can get help and information about services for their child and felt that a crisis needed to be reached before appropriate services are offered to them, or that they have to battle with services before help is provided.” At our launch, one of my colleagues on the commission, who is a service provider but also a service user, said this totally echoed her experience as a troubled adolescent.

She was referred to child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, but never got an appointment. Finally, when she was 18, she was asked to attend adult services. I believe she said that was two and a half years after she had originally been referred. Dr. Finnerty added that many young people and their families are "frustrated, distressed and are trying to cope with deteriorating mental health difficulties while waiting for lengthy periods on waiting lists for essential services", as I have just illustrated through the example of my colleague. Dr. Finnerty also found that there are certain groups of children who, along with their parents, have difficulties in accessing CAMHS due to language, culture, stigma, fears or location. She went into detail on those various groups in her report. One group I have worked with for most of my career is people with autism. That is a particularly difficult issue in that, in certain areas, CAMHS do not seem to see a role for themselves in dealing with children who have autism even where such children are presenting with difficulties that would result in access to CAMHS if they did not have autism. I do not understand why that happens. It has to change.

It is clear to the board of the commission from the final report, which we endorse, that the current systems for CAMHS are simply not working. As we pointed out at the time of publication and on many occasions before and since, including at the time of publication of the individual community healthcare organisation, CHO, reports on 31 August 2023, these systems lack the basic management, information gathering and oversight structures that are needed to operate safe and effective services. We have sent the clerk links to the various individual reports if members wish to access them. We can also address questions if there are any that we can answer today.

Dr. Finnerty recommended the immediate reform of these structures and also recommended the immediate and independent regulation of CAMHS by the commission to help guarantee that all children have access to evidence-based and safe services regardless of geographical location or ability to pay. The regulation of CAMHS under the Mental Health Act would provide the commission with the statutory powers to immediately work with stakeholders and clinical staff to develop standards and rules for the provision of CAMHS community services in Ireland. The issue of ability to pay is very important because, although there are people in private practice, that does not necessarily guarantee that a child or adolescent who has a problem will be able to get the type of service he or she needs because a multidisciplinary approach is required. Seeing one professional in isolation is better than not seeing anyone but it is not a modern approach to supporting children and adolescents with problems.

Dr. Finnerty found that ineffective governance in some areas is contributing to inefficient and unsafe CAMHS through failure to manage risk, failure to fund and recruit key staff, failure to look at alternative models of providing services when recruitment becomes difficult and failure to provide a standardised service across and within CHOs. Another key issue is the lack of access to information. As a result of the lack of an IT service, paper documents are being used. They often seem to be incomplete and pieces often go missing while information is not shared across the system. If you see one professional and go on to see another, information may not be passed on to the latter. We also found that, although there are difficulties in recruitment, those difficulties do not seem to be as bad in services where there is proper administration, IT and governance.

We also have to emphasise that treating children and adolescents with these problems requires, to use a simple term, a "boots on the ground" approach. You need various professionals from different backgrounds. It is a rotating problem because, if you do not have the professionals in the team, you will not attract other professionals to it and those professionals who are on the team will be put under extra pressure, causing them to leave and go elsewhere. It is a bit like an operating theatre with an operating table. You need an anaesthetist, a surgeon, nurses and a clean environment. In psychiatry, we need certain environments as well. If you want to attract people to work in them, you need to provide those environments.

The lack of a national director for mental health has contributed to these difficulties. I know the committee is aware that this post was discontinued by the HSE some years ago without, as far as I know, any interaction with the Department of Health or the Minister at the time. Most of us who work in mental health services have been campaigning for its reinstatement ever since.

It is the strongly held view of the commission that the HSE, with support from the Department of Health, must immediately start to put together a formal strategy for this restructure of CAMHS and that this must include how all the recommendations from Dr. Finnerty’s review will be addressed and how the implementation of the recommendations will be overseen. However, we also feel that, for the public to be assured, we need independent oversight of the introduction of these recommendations. Once again, and I apologise if I keep repeating myself, we feel that the Mental Health Commission is the obvious body to do this. We feel this does not have to wait for the new mental health Act and that it can be done under the current Act.

In closing, the commission welcomes the committee’s interest in the CAMHS report. It sets out a clear roadmap to help ensure that we can work together to restructure a CAMHS service that will deliver evidence-based and up-to-date supports for vulnerable children and adolescents who need such high-level input for their problems and that, in time, we all can be proud of. The report is practical and straightforward in its recommendations but unless it is actually implemented it will be just another document on a shelf for future review and regret. As I said at the outset, if the committee will give Professor Lucey some time, he will speak about setting standards and regulations. He has been with us for a month. A month ago, he was a consultant psychiatrist on call so he is well aware of the other side of how the Act and regulation work. In a previous role, he was clinical director for three inpatient services, including a CAMHS inpatient service he helped establish, so he is also well aware of what is involved in establishing standards. If I may, I will turn to Professor Lucey.

That would be helpful to the committee. I ask Professor Lucey to please go ahead.

Professor Jim Lucey

It is a great pleasure and privilege to be here with the committee today. Members will be conscious of the fact that I have just been appointed to this role as inspector at the Mental Health Commission. I am very proud of that appointment and of the commission I have been privileged to join.

As the Joint Committee on Health, members will be very well aware of the complexity of mental health services. The modern health industry is probably the largest industry in the world. It is the most complex. No longer can we talk about psychiatry, psychology or any other particular modality in isolation. That complexity makes the healthcare industry the most powerful it has ever been in history. It is also the most capacious and potentially beneficial it has ever been. However, it also makes it the most potentially dangerous and harmful. If these resources are misused, underprovided, misdirected or undirected, great harms can occur, an issue I know the committee is alive to.

This report, which I commend to the committee and which our chairman has outlined so carefully, is about the children of Ireland. It is about our children, our families' children and our neighbours' children. It is essentially about difficulties which, as we know from Professor Mary Cannon's reports and the research going on Ireland, are evidenced to affect at least one third of our adolescents. We also know that three quarters of adults who have a mental health difficulty had that difficulty when they were children. What do we do with the healthcare industry to try to meet these resources? We can have reports and recriminations after individual disasters and setbacks, we can celebrate after individual investments and we can pride ourselves on islands of excellence that emerge when we do invest but none of this will be sufficient. As legislators, the members will know this from constituents coming to them with their children's difficulties.

What is lacking is set standards that apply from Dundalk to Donegal and from Kilkenny to Killarney, standards that are about a uniform experience for our children across the country. In a sense, we need a model for the healthcare industry. The best model I can come up with is a musical one, the orchestra. There is no point in saying we have invested in the band section or that the strings are doing well now while the percussion is not so good. We need an independent set of standards. It needs to be independent of the band section and the strings. We need to be able to understand the standards that are set. Psychiatry has a dark history but we are now talking about mental health services in all their broadness, diversity and potential, which is different from psychiatry. However, we need to understand the urgent need for standards to be set.

At the moment, the only location to set standards and see they are met is within the approved centres, which are the successors of the old asylums. We have made great progress in bringing those to a standard. When I was looking at this post and the success of the commission, I was impressed, as someone who has been in clinical practice for 40 years, with the progress that has been made in this 1%. Nine out of ten of those centres achieve 90% of standards. The progress in respect of human rights has been substantial. However, as the inspector, I cannot say that with regard to the vast experience of mental distress for our children. My predecessor put it starkly. I will not reiterate her words because time is pressing but I know that committee members understand we cannot have a healthcare industry without independent regulation. We would not do it in any other walk of life, let alone the one that obtains the largest tranche of our wealth. All of our income tax is going to healthcare services and they regulate themselves. Professional accreditations are all very fine but service regulation encompasses the whole of the orchestra. The concept of service regulation that is independent and verifiable, and conducted according to international standards, exists in only one area, which is 1% of the service.

I want the committee to see the great value of this report. It is the most substantial piece of work ever done by the commission. It was invested in with resources that I do not have to continue. Powers do not exist for me, as the inspector, to enforce this or for the commission to seek that enforcement. We must come to the ears of the committee members. The international standard model that is validated, can be recorded, tested and put to the public is only obtainable if we have an independent regulator to set that standard and to call people to attention when standards fall. The intention is about our children and their rights to recovery. Believe me, I know that mental healthcare works. I know that our children need that mental healthcare. I also know that Dr. Finnerty was right when she said she could not tell the parents of Ireland that their children were getting that standard at present.

I commend this report to the committee and hope that its members will be advocates for it. I welcome the opportunity to advocate for mental health of which we are all a part. When the committee members see the authenticity, openness and clarity of this report, they will be urgent in ensuring that its fate is not to sit on a shelf but rather that its fate will be to become manifest fully in all its recommendations. I thank committee members for listening.

I thank Professor Lucey for his contribution. It was sombre but sets the scene for the questions we need to go into. He outlined in a powerful way the challenges facing many children and their families who are trying to access supports and services.

I intend to end this session approximately 11 a.m., at which point we will bring in the representatives of the HSE for the second half of the meeting.

Good morning to Dr. Hillery, Professor Lucey and Mr. Farrelly. They are welcome. I congratulate Professor Lucey on taking up his new appointment.

The concern that many parents have on behalf of their children relates to the delay in getting appointments and assessments. Dr. Hillery talked in his opening statement about the postcode lottery. How many child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, teams are there? Is there a sufficient number? What areas of the country in particular are black spots with regard to access?

Professor Jim Lucey

May I take that question? The report gives a very detailed account. It contains an overview, as the Senator will be aware, and a detailed account of each of the nine CAMHS areas. There are variances across and within CAMHS areas. We can talk about the difficulties with a great deal of accuracy now. One of the great advances in Irish healthcare has been the arrival of an awareness of data. The data are there to show the degrees of variance. I do not wish now to call out in this chamber one particular CAMHS area over another. The report makes it very clear. The point is that there is variance.

The Senator mentioned delay. I would like to bring the committee's attention to one of the regulations and standards that we can apply to the centres we regulate. That is the code of practice on admission, transfer and discharge. It is a powerful mandate to which we can hold a centre in the adult context. It requires centres to engage with the community such that there is a response to need and the need is safely catered to with respect to transfers, and such that a discharge engages people with services in the community. No such code of practice exists in any CAMHS. We have no mandate to insist on that. While I recognise the Senator wants me to call out the different centres, and they are called out starkly in the report, I would like the committee to look to the solution with us. The solution is that we have such powers to insist, for example, on a code of practice for functional and expeditious assessment. We do not have such a power.

Getting back to the point, are the geographical too large, as a starting point?

Professor Jim Lucey

The regions are now going to be moved into regional sections.

Professor Jim Lucey

I do not think that is for us to dictate. As a provider, in the days when I was on the other side of the fence, I did not have the feeling they were too large. They are not beyond management but they are unmanaged without standards. That is the problem.

The report talks about the governance issues and the position of a national director for mental health. Each community healthcare organisation, CHO, must have a clinical director for CAMHS and a team clinical co-ordinator. The issues of leadership and governance were at stake in the south Kerry CAMHS report.

Professor Jim Lucey

That is correct.

Professor Lucey made the point that the Mental Health Commission does not have relevant powers and wants them. It would be right for it to have those powers as the result of any reforms made to the Mental Health Act. Does the professor believe that since the publication of the Maskey report, other CAMHS areas have upped their governance and oversight?

Dr. John Hillery

I will come in on that question. To answer the Senator's first question, the key issue is that someone needs to be responsible at a national level, a CHO level and a team level. One of the findings of this report is that there is no uniformity of responsibility. Individual clinicians, because of their training and regulation, felt responsible but did not have any control over what was going on around them. There appeared to be no one responsible for that. There was no one responsible for making sure that appointments were being kept and given out, people were being followed up on and files were in order so everyone knew what was going on. That is an issue nationally and not just in the area to which the Senator referred. It is better in some areas than others. As I said earlier, there was a divergence within CHOs. That once again goes back to the fact that we need a national plan and template to ensure those differences are not there.

The Senator's second question has popped out of my head.

I asked about the Maskey report in respect of south Kerry CAMHS. Have other CAMHS areas upped their game since then?

Dr. John Hillery

The Senator may remember we issued an intermediate report because of our concerns. We had never done that before. After that, we noticed there were improvements. We are in ongoing correspondence with the HSE. I would have to say it is probably not as detailed as we would like. We would like a more structured response to our questions. We would also like the powers to demand that if we do not get it.

At the centre of this is obviously the child. Dr. Hillery mentioned that many adults with mental health difficulties would have had those difficulties as children but they were missed and fell through the cracks or were misdiagnosed. It is a serious issue for children and adults.

Dr. John Hillery

It goes right through then.

It goes through to adulthood which has consequences for society.

Dr. John Hillery

Yes, because people get excluded from society and that causes other problems.

Absolutely. Lack of governance is one issue. The ability to recruit the various modalities within the teams is another issue that has been highlighted. We see difficulties with recruitment across the health services. That is not a funding issue but is caused by an inability to attract people and the fact that these individuals are not available. What can be done to enhance availability and also the attractiveness of positions? As with many areas of society, the bad press CAMHS has received, which unfortunately it deserved, is not an incentive to people to work in these areas. We need people to work in those areas. Young adults and children need these services. We need people to provide them. What can be done to ensure we have people and they take up positions?

Dr. John Hillery

Dr. Finnerty noted two important issues related to that in her report. First, she noted that some teams, even though they did not have the full complement of staff, were still providing a better service than some other teams. She also noted that some teams had much less difficulty recruiting staff than others. That came down to administrative structures and governance in those teams, which meant they were more attractive to people.

It is a leadership issue.

Dr. John Hillery

It is a leadership issue. We know there are problems recruiting in the health service. We cannot deny that but we know that even within those problems, there are some solutions that need to be shared.

On the availability of people, there are probably issues around needing to train more people. That is more long term. More immediately, the hope for me in the report was that it was shown that teams were functioning reasonably well despite not having the full complement of staff and also that teams that were better governed had less trouble attracting staff. The other thing we always have to talk about in health, of course, is retention. It is not alone about getting people in but also keeping them. That was a positive as well. I know Professor Lucey has some thoughts on this.

Professor Jim Lucey

The issue about recruitment is crucial. Many of the underperforming CAMHS areas are finding it difficult to recruit and may well rue the fact that the light has been shone on the poor services in the interests of the children. I am very hopeful, however. I want to share this because as a life-long educator in mental health, what the next generation of therapists, nurses, doctors and clinicians want is to work in healthcare and mental health care. The enthusiasm of the youth is huge. What happens, though, is that they are despondent when the culture of a certain centre becomes unsafe. When the access to education and training and the sense of safe practice diminishes they withdraw and then retention becomes very difficult. I have no doubt that if we all worked together, with Members of the Oireachtas, the media and the formers of the culture around mental health, we could change the culture of recruitment by giving people a sense of the international standard that attaches to the services themselves. This can only be done independently.

Again, I am going to try to keep contributions to ten minutes. The extended opening statement means we are under pressure to get all members in. I ask everyone to please work with me. Deputy Ward is next.

I thank representatives of the Mental Health Commission for attending. I thank the commission for its recent reports, which have shone a spotlight on the darkest parts of our health service when it comes to how we look after our most vulnerable, that is, the young people who engage with the children's mental health services. I will not make a long statement because I want to use my time properly. Since this Government took office, waiting lists for primary care, psychology, CAMHS, Jigsaw and so on have gone up and standards have dropped. This is leading to a perfect storm where some of the most vulnerable children are being impacted.

Standards were mentioned. I will address some of the findings of the report. On response times to CAMHS urgent referrals, the report states that 92.7% of urgent CAMHS referrals were responded to within three working days. How were these data collated? Were they provided by the HSE? Did Dr. Finnerty, whom I thank for the report, see these data?

Dr. John Hillery

There was a tiered approach to doing the report, as Professor Lucey said. We got extra resources from the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to do it. We were able to meet with staff, parents and the children and adolescents who use the services and go through files. The information generally came through that. Professor Lucey may be able to respond in more depth.

Professor Jim Lucey

This was an empirical study. It was "boots on the ground". A substantial amount of the inspectorate resource was handed over to doing this work over a two-year period. It required a great deal of time to go to each centre, repeatedly seek interviews, attach a template to try to make a fair statement across all of the services to ensure we were asking the same questions in each place - the Deputy raised one about waiting times - and then, simply unadorned, collate the information and tell it as it is. The Deputy is right; this is a report that says it as it is.

I return to the figure that 92.7% of urgent CAMHS cases were responded to within three working days. How were they responded to?

Professor Jim Lucey

Exactly.

Was the response a letter to a parent, a phone call to a parent or an appointment for a child, which is the most important thing?

Professor Jim Lucey

There is major variance. I go back to the headline statement that the manner in which the response overall was found did not give the inspector, Dr. Finnerty at the time, confidence to say this was a safe and adequate service. There was a variety of responses. It would be fair to say that making a report like this is critical in the sense that it is essential that we get truth. Rather than say there was no response, one must acknowledge that a response occurred. The Deputy has put his finger on it, however. There is a variety in the quality of response and, ultimately, Dr. Finnerty could not give confidence to the parents of Ireland that it was a safe and adequate response.

In Professor Lucey's opinion, would an urgent CAMHS case include young people who are self-harming, have suicidal intent or ideation or have eating disorders, for example?

Professor Jim Lucey

Yes, it would. I would go further and say that one of the problems we have is the difficulty in meeting the challenge of diversity, neurodiversity and the broader understanding of healthcare and mental health care difficulty and problems. The report makes clear that we have a system which is in danger of picking some issues and not responding sufficiently to others, whereas our human beings - our children - have complex holistic needs. If you have someone who has a mental health difficulty in one professional definition but might be excluded because they have a problem in another professional definition, you end up with a diversity in the wrong sense and a divergence of standard response. Some of the CAMHS took one view and others took another view. This is not a standard. What we need is a standard that accepts the wide breadth of need.

I agree. I will return to the 92.7% of urgent CAMHS cases that were responded to within three working days. Subsequently, the report states that a child will get an appointment for deliberate self-harm in 190 days; for suicidal intent, it is 60 days; it is over 200 days for suicidal ideation; and it is over 100 days for eating disorders. To return to the types of responses covered in that 92.7% figure, are these phone calls or a letter to a parent stating the child has been put on a waiting list? Is that the response?

Professor Jim Lucey

It is not a sufficient response and not a timely response. It is not a response in which Dr. Finnerty could say to the parents of Ireland they could have confidence.

Dr. John Hillery

Also, it was very variable across the country within and between CHOs. That is why we find parents bringing children to adult emergency departments. It is because they are under stress.

Professor Jim Lucey

Returning to my orchestra or band analogy, some of the horns were playing different tunes. You just cannot have that. You have to have synergy if you are going to have harmony.

Okay. The first recommendation in the report is to give the commission the power to oversee changes in CAMHS.

If the commission had the power to oversee these recommendations and all the things in the report, would this report read differently? Going back to what I said earlier, 92.7% of urgent cases were responded to within three working days. If the commission had oversight of that and was able to go in and do its own work on that, would that report read differently?

Dr. John Hillery

We know from our experience of carrying out this project that improvements happened while we were carrying it out. The Deputy will have heard statements from the HSE to that effect. We have seen things improve just due to the fact that we were doing this process so, definitely, if we had a permanent process in place, standards, resources and actions would change and improve.

Current legislation was mentioned. We are waiting for the review of the Mental Health Act. It has been kicked down the road time after time. We had hoped for priority publication this term. It is in priority drafting now, which means we will be lucky to see it completed in the lifetime of this Government. That is my understanding of it, and it is very disappointing to see that. Can something be done now? For example, I have introduced legislation - it is in with the Bills Office at the moment - that would, as per the commission's number one recommendation, regulate CAMHS under the Mental Health Commission. Would that help?

Dr. John Hillery

We are aware of the Deputy's proposals. Professor Lucey will comment on them.

Professor Jim Lucey

The urgency in what the Deputy says is commendable. "Can something be done now?" is the question of every parent in this difficulty, many of the children in this difficulty and young people. The answer is "Yes". The current legislation would allow the Mental Health Commission to be given the powers not just to inspect but actually to see that people are held to a standard. The Deputy asks what we would do if we were given these powers. I think I speak for the commission on this. We would begin by agreeing a standard across the country. There are international models we could use. We would get an agreement around those and then see that those standards were met. The report would therefore look very different because it would be tested against an agreed template of standards, and there is no such template now.

Dr. John Hillery

In answer to the Deputy's question, that standard would address what he has just asked: What is the response? What should the response be? When should it happen?

Absolutely. That is really needed. Professor Lucey mentioned that the current legislation would allow this to happen now - or would it? Does it have to be amended, or what way would that work?

Professor Jim Lucey

No. The current legislation, we understand, would allow the Minister to give us this power now, but we do not have the power now. We would have to be given it.

So it is a ministerial decision.

Professor Jim Lucey

The appropriate section of the current legislation would have to be invoked.

So it would be a ministerial decision. That is what I am asking.

The HSE will be in later. It has said that at the moment, as regards this report, no children are lost to follow-up. I have read the report and gone into its details, especially about the monitoring of antipsychotic medication or ADHD medication. I know there was a reluctance earlier to refer to any specific CHO. I have the figures for all CHOs here, but CHO area 1, which includes Donegal, is the first one I have in front of me. Just over 40% of antipsychotic medication monitoring checks as regards bloods in CHO area 1 have not been completed. Over 40% of blood pressure checks have not been completed. Going on to pre-medication checks, 40% of height checks have not been completed, and weight checks have not been completed. To me, national standards need to be developed for the monitoring of medication.

Dr. John Hillery

But there are.

At the moment we are using the British National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE system, as far as a I know. Do we have to have our own standards here or-----

Dr. John Hillery

No. I am a practising psychiatrist still, and there are international standards as regards those monitorings we apply. It can be more difficult in some areas of the country. For instance, when I worked in the Cathaoirleach's area I had to send people to the hospital for blood tests and I was depending on their going. Then I would often have to go downstairs to my GP colleague to get the blood test result because I could not get them directly for some reason. That can all be overcome with an appropriate administrative system. There are international standards, they are well accepted and they should be in place. There is no reason to have our own standards. We are all using them.

Professor Jim Lucey

May I just amplify what Dr. Hillery has said? The standards are available. We could move quickly on that, but the urgency comes from the need to make sure that, for example, these serious medications are monitored in our children's bodies appropriately. I am sure that the HSE, with which I worked for 20 years of my 40 years in practice, will give reassurances about this, and the Deputy and I and the parents of the country may choose to take those reassurances as sincere and well meant, but can we rely on reassurances from the provider? Would we in any other instance allow a provider to give us the reassurance about being its own auditor, its own governor? We would not, and with our children's lives I do not think we can continue with that situation.

Deputy Shortall is next.

I thank all the witnesses for attending. I congratulate Professor Lucey on his appointment, a very important one, and wish him well in that role.

It is important to note the fact that what was going on with the serious difficulties in south Kerry and the subsequent issues that came to light came to light only because of a whistleblower. We should keep that front and centre in our minds. The subsequent response to the whistleblower and his treatment, I think, is an indication of the scale of the challenge facing us in addressing this in an open and constructive manner and the difficulties with the culture around this, which does not encourage people to speak out. That is just an important point and I will raise it with the HSE as well.

There are a number of different factors to this, and the whole question of investment is very important. It is not the only one by any means. We have yet to hear about budget allocation after yesterday as regards mental health services. What I am hearing through the grapevine is not encouraging, but we will wait until we hear the announcement today about that.

The witnesses have spoken about the importance of extending the remit of the commission in terms of oversight and regulation and their view that that can be done within the existing legislation. In practical terms, what steps need to be taken to extend that remit to the commission?

Professor Jim Lucey

I thank the Deputy for her encouragement. I really appreciate it. The role of inspector is one I want to make available to the Oireachtas and the people in a way that is open and transparent. While the law requires that I must be independent of all vested interests, it is a privilege to be here to share it with the Oireachtas.

The Deputy made a comment about whistleblowing within the health service. It is important to emphasise that the so-called whistleblowers Act, the Protected Disclosures Act, is one we welcome. For the committee's information, we have had a trebling of the protected disclosures inputs into the commission in the past two years, so this process is actually working and it illustrates in a sense how protected disclosures need an independent source and an independent voice and a hearing. That can only be really achieved if there is an independent monitoring such as the commission's. The Deputy's point is very well made with regard to the process of quality governance and progress and improvement in healthcare, and each part of this comes together.

As to what practical steps should be taken now, the first step we are saying is to give the powers to the commission to do-----

I am sorry, I know Deputy Ward raised this, but does that entail something as simple as the Minister making a decision?

Professor Jim Lucey

There is a clause within the Act. For a moment, whether it is section-----

Mr. John Farrelly

It is section 34. Additional functions may be conferred on the commission.

So it is a ministerial decision to extend the remit. As regards the commission's resources then-----

Professor Jim Lucey

We would have to have the resources attached to that, of course, because we would do it meaningfully as we produce this, and we do not have the resources now, but that would flow naturally from being given the mandate and the power under that section.

What engagement has the commission had with the Minister or the Department in that respect?

Dr. John Hillery

The chief executive and I met with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, after the report came out and I put these points to her also. In August the CEO and I met with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and I put that point to him also, so it is a point we have been making regularly since the report came out. I have said to all the people we have met that even if we do not get the powers, we will keep asking the questions.

Having the powers and resources would make it much more effective. The Deputy mentioned whistleblowers but if there is proper regulation, while whistleblowers will still be needed, not as many should be needed as if there were no regulation. We have said what is needed and the chief executive, Mr. Farrelly, has a financial figure for what it might cost to do this. We know all these things.

Can Mr. Farrelly share that with us?

Mr. John Farrelly

We did a full review of what would be required in the current mental health Bill to extend our remit. It would be between €2.5 million and €3 million. We have put in this year for extra resources within the budget. When the health budget comes out, we will know if we have got that money but we have the capability to pivot. At the moment, I have a small standards and quality team working on standards for community services. We can pivot into CAMHS. If I get the money, I can pivot into ensuring that the inspector has the resources. Our corporate function is designed such that we can quickly recruit, and funnily enough, retain, even though we are in the health service. We can pivot quite quickly to ensure we put the resources in place for the inspector.

Dr. John Hillery

I want to add that the chief executive insisted when we started this that we would have external advisers, and the Deputy will see who they were at the front of the report. That adds to the power and integrity of what is happening.

I want to ask about the need for a continuum of care. I heard Professor Lucey speaking recently on the radio about the difficulties with upstream services. There is a lot of focus on CAMHS but there should be a lot of support, services and help available to people long before they get to CAMHS. The commission talks about developing a model. A plethora of different organisations provide different types of support, services and counselling. There is the HSE counselling, the psychological services and the psychology and primary care service. It is incredibly disjointed.

Dr. John Hillery

And then people can end up on several different waiting lists.

Dr. John Hillery

I apologise that I wandered from my opening statement a bit but I said that one of the issues for parents is that there is nowhere you can go and have an immediate point of contact. Professor Lucey would have the same experience I have of regular phone calls from people we know in various parts of the country asking about a friend who has an issue and asking what they can do. Surely with modern technology and IT, we can have a one-stop shop.

It goes back to when I trained in child psychiatry, which is a long time ago, although you might not think so to look at me. I saw a lot of kids who had simple issues. They had dyslexia and so they were being bullied at school. They had what we now call autism spectrum disorder so they were being bullied at school and they did not fit in but they all ended up coming to CAMHS. We now know so much more about these conditions but it seems to me that what the Deputy has just said is true; they end up going to different places and there is no joined-up thinking. They should never have to get to CAMHS but because of the fact they do not get early support, they end up, as any of us would, stressed and more open to mental health illness. It is about having-----

Does the commission have a clear picture of the kind of model we need to have from end to end in children's mental health services?

Professor Jim Lucey

Speaking to my previous role, a month ago I would have said there were numerous models I would commend due to the research and the international experience. There is a role for calling it and saying there has to be a coherent model that unifies these, and such a thing does exist. From the Mental Health Commission's point of view, we are not commissioners of service, we are standard setters of service and regulators of that standard.

I appreciate that.

Professor Jim Lucey

There is no lack of knowledge about the way to go forward.

Has Professor Lucey had engagement with the HSE on the kind of model that would be desirable?

Professor Jim Lucey

I have not.

We know there is little or no governance of those services but there is equally little or no co-ordination of them. There are historic reasons different charities or NGOs have been in place and there is no connection between various elements of the services. Has the Mental Health Commission engaged with the HSE on how it can streamline those services?

Professor Jim Lucey

We have engaged and I know my predecessor was fully engaged with the HSE. It is something about the inspector's role, within the independence I am required to have, that I hope to amplify that engagement everywhere we can. The key thing is coming to a point where we agree a unified standard. Will we get to a point where we have this diversity of need being met by an absolute complexity of response that is incoordinate? We have to move on from that. As the inspector for the Mental Health Commission I would be looking for that unified standard to be agreed upon and we would welcome any engagement that would allow that to happen within our mandate of roles.

Dr. John Hillery

The answer to the Deputy's question is "No". One of the issues is one I alluded to in my opening statement, namely the need for a national director. When there was a national director, we all knew who we could contact and we often had meetings about it. As the Deputy knows, I was president of The College of Psychiatrists of Ireland previously, and we would engage with that person but suddenly there is no one at that level. It is a big gap in our national picture.

I thank the Mental Health Commission for its report, which is informative. To get a bit of clarity, my first question is on regulation. The third paragraph of the report from the commission states that 99% of services are not regulated under the 2001 Act. What does that mean in practice?

Dr. John Hillery

It means we do not know what standards are being used and if they are being adhered to. We know that people have their own regulation as professionals and in different teams they have various approaches but there is no national standard.

Does that concern Dr. Hillery?

Dr. John Hillery

Very much so. Does the Deputy mind if we ask Professor Lucey to answer that?

Professor Jim Lucey

This is a core agenda when there is a service that is so important to us. The largest source of ill health in those under 50 is mental health and it is the agenda that drives all our healthcare concerns. It is present in one third of persons who go to general practice and primary care and it is the source of 75% of our adult mental health need in children. It is huge, therefore, and yet only 1% of the service provision, response and reaction to mental health difficulty is held to a specific standard. All of the rest, as the previous Deputy mentioned, if they are involved in a response at all, are given a response that is unregulated. There is a difference between the professional regulation of a doctor or nurse of CORU or the Medical Council and a service regulation that asks what the response to this person in difficulty will look like as a whole. We need to move away from the personalised notion of the doctor or nurse towards a service recognition of the need of the child or person in difficulty. We will not get that unless we move towards service recognition. The Act is inspired by the dark history of the silence of Ireland. It is fine legislation and I worked under the 1945 Act for many years so when the 2001 and 2006 Acts came in, I saw the great advances in human rights and tribunals and in the emphasis on the service providers' duties and obligations. However, they are limited to 1% of the experience.

How was that allowed to happen?

Professor Jim Lucey

There has been incremental progress. The progress that has happened in mental health needs to be celebrated but we need to move forward. We are in the 21st century with a complex and community-based mental health service where the experience within the approved centre is something that almost should not be happening and that is a minority experience for most people with mental health difficulty. What we need, however, is to recognise that when medications of such power are prescribed to children in any county, from Kerry to Donegal, we need to know what is happening as a whole and hold those providers to a standard. We must uplift them and attract them to a service that is good to work in, safe to be in and that they can do good work in.

That cannot be done without the standards because the variance occurs where there is no standard. As a result, workarounds happen, and local difficulties are allowed to extend and so on.

Does Professor Lucey think that the lack of regulation he referenced is at the heart of deficiencies in CAMHS in particular? I want to try to get to the heart of why we have-----

Dr. John Hillery

It is important to say that we know that people are trying to adhere to standards in the work they do, but we do not know what the standards are. Sorry, the answer is "Yes."

Professor Jim Lucey

The answer is "Yes", Deputy. We think it goes to the heart of it. Of the 49 recommendations Dr. Finnerty made, the key one is that things such as governance, consistency, and the right to have a response to a child in need, are not held to account in a way where it can be said that Donegal matches Kerry or Dublin matches Galway. That cannot be said because-----

Dr. John Hillery

Sorry to interrupt, but one of the key things is the total lack of consistency in information. As the Deputy knows from the report, the inspector found that certain children had been lost to follow-up and no one could tell us where they are. The HSE has assured us that is being dealt with but this is not rocket science. It is about having information about people, knowing what stage of their treatment journey they are on, knowing-----

Professor Jim Lucey

I will amplify that. I have been a provider and worker in mental health services all my life. These are good people doing good work. I am sure members know how valuable our health employment is. I value those people. It is because I value the necessity that regulation matters. I recognise that people want to have all the boats lifted. Everyone would then benefit. The Oireachtas would know that its investment in healthcare is getting good value, people would know they are working in a service they can be valued in, and the service provision to children would be of value to the whole of society.

I am guessing the Mental Health Commission, which the witnesses are members of, is the vehicle to push for more regulation. Governmental decisions are obviously needed regarding all this but the commission made the recommendation, not only in this report but other reports, that there needs to be much more regulation and fewer deficiencies in access.

Professor Jim Lucey

The Deputy's guess is correct. What we are saying is twofold. On the specific issue of CAMHS which we are here to talk about, there needs to be change and that change cannot be assurance about one island of excellence, or one little improvement or one new investment, and we all go away as though the band section is suddenly better. We are saying that we need action on CAMHS according to those 49 recommendations. Broadly speaking, we are also saying, and with respect we are saying this to the health committee which is an extraordinarily important part of the players in the development of our health service, the biggest industry in the country, that we need independent regulation that is not reassurance from the provider. Whether it is public or private, any particular body will reassure people and will do their best, but we need independent standards that are held to regulation. Otherwise, there will be no uniformity, variants will happen and one will go from the Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital inquiry to the hepatitis C inquiry and on and on in each of these reports. I have read so many of them and they are all about the same thing, which is to set a standard-----

Dr. John Hillery

Transparency.

Professor Jim Lucey

-----transparency, hold people to that standard and lift them to that standard. It is like a team.

That is fair enough. Professor Lucey has made many orchestra metaphors because if one member of that orchestra is out of tune, everybody is out of tune.

On the report, the terminology Dr. Finnerty uses regarding gaps in governance, at both corporate and clinical level, is alarming. When that is read first, alarm bells immediately start ringing. There have been huge deficiencies in respect of accessibility and waiting times for children in need. In the context of the report, can CAMHS in its present structure be reconstructed or do we need to go back to the drawing board as regards what CAMHS delivers to children through the CHOs?

Dr. John Hillery

Dr. Finnerty made a similar statement in her report regarding a need to go back to look at what has to be done now to ensure children and adolescents get the services they need. That is taking into account matters such as national finances and the availability of trained staff. We have to provide a service with what is available to us and ensure we are making maximum use of what we have. That is probably about going back to a drawing board but we are not talking about getting rid of what is there. I might get clumsy in my analogies but it is about having something on a drawing board that everyone agrees to and will follow. If we know that is happening to start with, we can then move on from there to add to it.

I am conscious we have ten minutes left. Will members take five minutes each? Do they want to wait for the HSE and then come in first?

I would like a little more time. This is a very important issue. I do not like to have to rush it, to be honest.

I cannot manufacture time. Does Deputy Burke want to lead off on the next session?

That is fine.

I thank Deputy Burke. I appreciate it.

I have a lot of questions I would like to ask, but I can leave it until the next session.

I thank the Mental Health Commission for its work on this report, which was 100% badly needed for sure. I wish Professor Lucey well in his new work. I love the orchestra analogy. There is no doubt that we need an overall holistic approach when it comes to children. The stark reality is that behind every statistic there is a child or young person in dire need of the services. Families I deal with all the time are out of their minds with worry. I have had young people come to me to ask how they can be moved up on the CAMHS list. They already have been waiting 18 months. As was said, children are deteriorating while waiting for lengthy periods. That comes across and is highlighted in the report.

It was mentioned that one of the main recommendations relates to governance and consistency. Is that the most important issue? What is the most important recommendation the representatives think we should start with?

Dr. John Hillery

Everything falls in behind proper governance because that goes from a national to a regional level, to the level of somebody working as a professional in a clinic or a parent bringing in one of his or her children. We should know that the structures are in place to give us help, that these are uniform and the same no matter where we are, and that there are standards people are adhering to. To answer the question, that is the most important thing.

Professor Jim Lucey

That is the holistic answer for that complexity of service. As I said, we are thinking about this huge investment we are making as a society in healthcare in Ireland and we are saying a stark thing: without regulation there are variants, which is very worrying. The report's findings are unquestionable and valid. There is no doubt about it. The Senator is quite right. We need to commend Dr. Finnerty, the commission, and my predecessors who were involved, on doing this good piece of work. Those data, granular though they are, need to be brought together. In a sense, the answer is we need standard setting in order that everyone is playing to the same beat.

Has the commission done work with the Department of Health in regard to Part 8 of the mental health amendment Bill, which concerns the admission of children to approved inpatient facilities? Has it done any work with the HSE on that?

Mr. John Farrelly

Very little in that area. The main area has been around adults, the human rights aspect and making sure coercive aspects are not seen as some sort of a treatment. The children's section still needs the conversation-----

Why does Mr. Farrelly think that is?

Mr. John Farrelly

It got priority drafting this year. There is much work going in with a lot of stakeholders to get things right, in taking on board everyone's opinion and in just getting the work done by the people in the Department. We have been asked about a lot in the other areas and we have inputted a lot and have been included. On the children's one, that section is only starting. We are beginning to hear conversations there now.

I want to talk about the national director and the importance of a national director. It is shocking to hear Dr. Hillery say that the Minister was not told when the national director was got rid of. To be honest, I was not aware of that.

Dr. John Hillery

Ironically, I was a meeting with the Minister of State responsible and we told her. That was on the day it happened.

Will the witnesses speak about the importance of a national director because it is one of the key things that should happen, particularly around mental health?

Dr. John Hillery

Having a national director is saying we think mental health is one of the most important things in the health service in this country. It is not a side dish; it is key. It ensures there is somebody at the main table, to use a clumsy analogy again, who is speaking solely for that area and is not distracted by other things. It is also saying that mental health services are about mental health services. They are not part of other community things or education, or a bit of this or a bit of that. They have their own role and they are really important. Then it is about this person being somebody who those of us who are part of the broader group of stakeholders know we can approach. A parent or a person who has a family member with a mental health problem could write to the national lead. I could go on but I think that gives the answer.

Professor Jim Lucey

It is leadership. Leadership and culture are tightly linked. Without that leadership, it is hard to get someone to be heard saying that we have a huge health budget but we only spend €1 in every €20 on mental health and asking for the right balance of priorities for our investment. As a commission, we cannot influence or say those things because it is not our function. Our function is quite limited but a national lead, one would imagine, would be able to co-ordinate, lead and set the cultural tone. There would still be a difficulty in terms of the wide array of providers a committee member mentioned. There are now so many different complex players in this but a national lead, one would imagine, would be able to bring together those particular diverse voices and we would get coherence. A national lead, I think, would be able to lead a provider set, either within one organisation or a wider set of groups, towards a national standard that would be independently set and monitored. Now one would have governance. Governance, as the Senator will be aware, is a complex range of things.

Dr. John Hillery

Of course, the lack of a national lead is also shown in the fact that we have all these providers. In my county of Clare, and I note Senator Conway is here, there are a lot of volunteer groups which have stepped into the breach because it was not being done at a national level. Of course, that is good. We commend these people on the work they do. At the same time, however, once again, we are back to there being no national approach to these issues and no one at the centre saying that each county needs this. It should not be up to local people - often people who are under huge stress because they have a family member with an issue - to do this. It is another symptom of what has been going on and that lack of national leadership.

Professor Jim Lucey

Without coherence, everybody steps up and does their best. That is grand, but this is the biggest agenda in our health service, the biggest unmet need in our society and the biggest investment. Incoherence is terribly inefficient and it leads to the kinds of findings Dr. Finnerty has articulated so worryingly with variance in outcomes, poor responses to need and a sense in which we cannot be safe. Dr. Finnerty said she could not assure the parents of Ireland.

Did Mr. Farrelly want to come in there?

Mr. John Farrelly

People use different language because they are trying to give confidence. There are hundreds of assistant national director posts. There are lots of assistant national directors in the HSE. They potentially do not have the power that is needed to change this. If one looks at what happened in south Kerry, the director, Mr. Damien McCallion, went in, chaired it and got the changes there. It is only possible in certain roles to drive through reform.

It is really important. It is probably the one huge middle piece of the jigsaw or cog in the wheel that one needs. It is absolutely vital to get a national director.

Professor Jim Lucey

The standards need to be there for that national director.

Professor Jim Lucey

Then one needs a national director who meets the standards. It is two sides of the coin.

I thank the witnesses so much.

Senator Conway has one question and I want to ask a question.

Before I ask it, I acknowledge the significant contribution Dr. Hillery has made through a lifetime of commitment in this area.

In response to Senator Kyne earlier, Dr. Hillery stated that he did not believe the areas needed to be changed and that they were not too big or too small. In response to Deputy Shortall, it was stated that we need to get all elements of the orchestra right. My concern, as Dr. Hillery will be aware, is that with the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, particularly in the mid-west, certain areas were not operating in an orchestra style. Even within the CAMHS itself, I have to say that our county has suffered more than the other two counties that are in that particular area. Is there anything that can be done, even in the short term, to balance that or ensure it is balanced?

Dr. John Hillery

The main thing that needs to be done is to introduce the external monitoring, set standards and make sure they apply across the country and to make sure there is somebody at a local, regional and national levels responsible for that and that there is a spine of responsibility so that wherever one is, whether in west Clare or west Dublin, one has the same access and the same resources. That cannot be done unless one has proper governance. That governance could be brought in fairly quickly, if the resources were put into it and if people were given the power to do so.

Has Professor Lucey anything to add?

Professor Jim Lucey

No. Dr. Hillery said it exactly.

I am conscious of time and I thank the Chair.

The Mental Health Commission report states that staff retention was a key factor and a major challenge in recruiting new staff. It was identified in human resources practices. Could the witnesses elaborate or enlighten us on that section?

Mr. John Farrelly

We constantly hear it is difficult to recruit. People want to come into quality but the practices were not the same. If one thinks of the number of teams that were there and the number who were allocated, it amounted to choosing whether one had a social worker or a speech and language therapist. It was not a case of us filling the teams. There was not a sense of someone in charge.

When I need to get staff, I have to go to the Department. I get it signed off. I have a human resources department and the competencies are there. I ask where are the gaps in the teams, about people not getting an extra staff member and about someone missing somewhere else. I refer to basic and coherent human resources practices.

Dr. John Hillery

I will give a historical example. One of my colleagues wanted a speech and language therapist in their service and was told there was no budget for that but there was for a chiropodist. That was a few years ago but when one looks at the things happening now, one wonders whether such practices are still going on.

Professor Jim Lucey

I will amplify it as well. Speech and language therapy, by the way, is an interesting part of it. It illustrates how we have gone beyond, in terms of mental healthcare and healthcare in general, thinking of the doctor or a particular professional. It turns out that in certain centres they say they do not have a budget for speech and language therapy but they can buy it privately. Would leadership allow such a situation? That is not on.

Dr. John Hillery

Of course, that goes back to another issue that I keep repeating. If one buys in someone privately, he or she is not sitting as part of the team. What we do in our work is work as teams. Much of the help we give to people happens because we meet as a team and discuss things, not because of the individual professionals.

Professor Jim Lucey

They may well be regulated but are not co-ordinated in terms of the orchestra. The team is the small part of the band. One has to have the modern vehicle of healthcare. It is the team; it is not the doctor. The modern vehicle of healthcare is the team that is co-ordinated, led, culturally driven and sustained by standards.

I suppose the pattern we are getting all the time is that there are key personnel missing from the teams. Those are the inadequacies.

I am not talking about a postcode lottery but if we do not have the teams in place, those children are being failed in those areas.

Professor Jim Lucey

If the teams are not in place, then good people within the teams do workarounds, they do their best, and they get stretched.

Dr. John Hillery

They get burnt out.

Professor Jim Lucey

They get burnt out. They then say they cannot work in this and it is not safe. They then get blamed and so on. A cycle of decline could be reversed by setting standards that everyone could buy into and lift.

The longer the list, the harder it is to get someone to go in. If someone is going to go in and is told they have a caseload of 300 kids before they even start-----

Professor Jim Lucey

I really want to commend our clinical graduates. We are producing the finest people in all of the clinical disciplines. They are smart, committed, and very motivated by human rights and quality and the advances in healthcare. They do not want to go into places that are unsafe. Why would we ask them to do so? I would ask that this be done because it would solve so much. Everyone has a role to play but it will solve so much.

I must stop there as we have gone over time. It sets us up well for the next meeting with the HSE. I really appreciate the witnesses coming in and answering the questions.

Sitting suspended at 11.01 a.m and resumed at 11.09 a.m.

The committee will now resume its consideration of the recent report of the Mental Health Commission on the vision of child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in the State. I am pleased to welcome from the HSE Mr. David Walsh, national director community operations, Mr. Donan Kelly, assistant national director for child and youth mental health, and Dr. Amanda Burke, national clinical lead for child and youth mental health.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it, identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him identifiable.

I welcome Mr. David Walsh who will make his opening remarks on behalf of the HSE.

Mr. David Walsh

I thank the Chair for the invitation to meet the Joint Committee on Health to discuss the Mental Health Commission report on child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Donan Kelly, assistant national director for child and youth mental health, and Dr. Amanda Burke, child and adolescent consultant psychiatrist and national clinical lead for child and youth mental health.

Good mental health is influenced by many factors. The continued enhancement of specialist mental health services is crucial, but the mental health of our young people depends on a broad public health approach that builds on collaboration across the health services, the education sector, statutory and voluntary bodies and within our communities.

CAMHS is a specialist mental health service for the approximately 2% of children who have a moderate to severe mental health disorder. For this group, it is particularly important to have access to integrated and person-centred supports provided by a multidisciplinary team. I acknowledge there are deficits in terms of access, capacity and consistency in the quality of our service. On behalf of the HSE, I wish to apologise to any child or young person who has not received the standard of care they should expect.

CAMHS teams receive nearly 22,000 referrals every year and deliver up to 225,000 appointments. It is challenged by a growth in demand for services, staff retention issues and recruitment difficulties. Between 2019 and 2022, referrals have increased by 16%, with a 10% increase in the number of appointments offered. In August this year, there were 3,891 children and young people waiting to be seen, a reduction of more than 400 compared to December 2022.

We continue to actively manage capacity through waiting list initiatives, targeting areas with specific challenges and long waiters. From June to August this year, 631 additional cases were taken off the CAMHS waiting list using this method. Every effort is made to prioritise urgent cases so that the referrals of people with high-risk presentations are addressed without delay. In August, 94% of all urgent cases were responded to within three working days. The severity of presenting symptoms as well as risk assessment is always taken into account in terms of waiting times.

Over the past six years, €22.6 million of development funding has been allocated to enhance CAMHS services, bringing the total funding to approximately €137 million. Since 2013, an additional 20 CAMHS teams have been established and 342 additional posts added to our workforce. There are 75 multidisciplinary CAMHS teams in place providing assessment and treatment services. We have also invested in telehealth, eating disorder teams and inpatient care. In addition, we have invested in services such as Jigsaw and primary care psychology for children and young people with mild to moderate mental health difficulties who do not need to access more specialised services.

The final report into CAMHS was published by the Mental Health Commission on 26 July 2023 and the HSE accepts those findings. Together with the Maskey report and the findings from HSE commissioned audits on prescribing practices, adherence to the CAMHS operational guidelines and service user experiences, these findings are directly contributing to the HSE’s programme of work to improve services.

The commission’s report has 49 recommendations for continued service improvement. Many of these recommendations are already being progressed as part of our implementation of Sharing the Vision and the Maskey report recommendations.

The commission has raised general concerns about the provision of CAMHS and specific concerns regarding children and young people within our care. I can assure the committee that the HSE has taken these concerns very seriously. Any specific concerns raised were promptly addressed.

There are no children or young people lost to follow-up care and there are currently no active concerns with regard to these cases. If any parent or young person has concerns about their care, they should in the first instance contact their CAMHS team and key worker.

The HSE has completed a review of open cases that have not been seen in the past six months by their CAMHS teams and those who have been prescribed neuroleptic medication. Some 576 cases out of an overall caseload of 20,000 were identified. Contact has been made with all those concerned to ensure they are receiving appropriate care, reflective of their current and future needs.

Medication is a key component of the recovery focused care plan of some of the children in the service. The audit of prescribing practice conducted in response to the Maskey report did not find evidence of over-prescribing. While areas for continued improvement were identified, the audit concluded that for all but one of the standards, compliance exceeded 90%.

The HSE is now moving to consolidate and expand our overall child and youth mental health improvement programme. This programme will address recommendations in the commission’s report, as well our national CAMHS audits. It will further build capacity within our CAMHS teams, in tandem with a continued focus on early intervention and upstream youth mental health services. It will also prioritise the need for a fit-for-purpose IT infrastructure and modern premises and support CAMHS teams to operate on the basis of a shared governance model where each clinician works to the full scope of their practice. We will have a focus on innovation, consistent clinical models and maximising telehealth to optimise access to care.

Sustained improvement of services will need a co-ordinated response involving all aspects of the service, directed by national mental health policy and supported by multi-annual investment. Within the HSE, the programme will be led by the assistant national director and national clinical lead for child and youth mental health. Since their appointment, my colleagues here today have worked to finalise and prepare a detailed plan for the delivery of this improvement programme, which will provide a comprehensive response to findings in the commission’s report.

Youth mental health will continue to be a key priority for the HSE. The Sharing the Vision implementation plan 2022-2024 provides a three-year roadmap for the continued development of mental health services. The HSE’s work to deliver Sharing the Vision is driven by a strong outcomes focus and a commitment to report on progress in an open way, including the online publication of quarterly status reports.

It is welcome that the commission’s report highlights that many people and their families have received excellent care and treatment, often within the limited resources of CAMHS teams, and that many teams have been innovative in trying to mitigate risk. The HSE looks forward to working with the commission to highlight good practice so that learning can be shared throughout the service.

We will move on to members’ questions.

We heard earlier from witnesses who came before the committee to speak about the scope of their authority. I understand that under the 2001 Act, the statutory code of mental health regulations is limited to inpatient services and does not cover outpatient services. In other words, they only cover about 1% of the people involved in mental healthcare. Has the HSE made any recommendations to the Minister about expanding that scope so the inspectorate could have wider powers, rather than being confined to inpatient care?

Mr. David Walsh

I am not sure if the HSE has made direct representations regarding the expansion of regulations, but in the context of any modern healthcare environment, regulation is to be supported as a driver to maintain standards and evolve services. I will ask Dr. Burke to comment on that.

Dr. Amanda Burke

We look forward to working with the commission on the service improvement programme. However, when we bring in regulations, we have to look at the proper resourcing of mental health services.

Overall, the HSE does not have a difficultly with that.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Absolutely not.

The current situation is that there is jurisdiction over about 1% of the care being provided. Previous witnesses wanted that to be expanded.

Mr. David Walsh

The HSE fully co-operated with and supported the review that the Mental Health Commission undertook within CAMHS. That shows our attitude. We recognise the role of the commission and value its input. If regulations expand, we will work with it.

What is the view of the HSE in respect of the appointment of one director for mental health services? That is what the Mental Health Commission is recommending. Where are we with that?

Mr. David Walsh

In 2015, a national director for mental health was appointed under the structures then in place in the HSE. That changed and as things currently stand, mental health reports to me, along with all other community-based care groups. We are currently going through another process of change to structures but I am not aware of any intention to have a specific national director.

Does Mr. Walsh accept that the area he is covering is very wide? It includes community services and mental health services. That is a wide area of responsibility. Is there a need for focus? One issue that has been lost in many debates is that the population of this country has increased by 1.5 million in 23 years. It has gone up from 3.8 million in 2000 to 5.2 million. That is an increase of almost 1.5 million or of 40%. We have not increased services by 40% in many areas, especially in mental health. Is now the time to allow someone to focus purely on mental health and for him or her not to be sidelined by all the other health demands? In fairness, Mr. Walsh has a huge portfolio to look after.

Mr. David Walsh

Under the proposed structures, six regional executive officers will hold responsibility within those regions. What has to be finalised is the structure at the centre of the organisation. In terms of CAMHS and mental health generally, the HSE has now set up a child and youth mental health office, with Mr. Kelly as the assistant national director and Dr. Burke as the clinical lead. There is an enhanced focus on mental health and that is paralleled on the adult side as well. However, I do not have a final picture of what the central structure of the HSE will be.

Other jurisdictions operate in that way. Someone deals with and is in overall charge of mental health services.

Mr. David Walsh

There certainly will be a nominated person within the revised central structure who will have responsibility for mental health and the child and youth mental health office will be a component of that structure.

I will move on to the Mental Health Commission report, which contained 49 recommendations. I know that in real terms, it is quite recent but it obviously is important that the report does not gather dust on a shelf. There is obviously a challenge around trying to implement those 49 recommendations and it will not happen overnight. Has a clear plan been set in place to highlight the recommendations that can be delivered on immediately? We hope we will work through all of the recommendations so that there is a clear time period for the implementation of each of those recommendations.

Mr. David Walsh

I will ask Mr. Kelly to address that question.

Mr. Donan Kelly

I thank the Deputy. He will be aware that there has been a child and youth mental health improvement programme in the HSE overall. With the setting up of the office and my recent appointment - I have been in post for three weeks - we have an overarching plan that is under development. It is important to note that of those 49 recommendations, 31 are also in our Sharing the Vision implementation plan under the national mental health policy. Streams of work are already under way. It is important that we reach across all aspects of the work programme.

We have given an assurance to the Mental Health Commission that we will bring in its representatives and provide an overarching strategic plan by the end of this month. We are open to further discussions with them around implementation.

Some of the 49 recommendations are short term and others require longer-term investment and are part of that overarching plan for how we want child and youth mental health services to look in the future. It is going to take a period of time to address all of the recommendations, subject to funding.

I will move on to the deficiency in the south and south west. Have we been able to deal with that CAMHS deficiency? What additional work needs to be done to provide up-to-date services there, rather than the piecemeal way it was done previously?

Dr. Amanda Burke

That particular area has faced particular challenges in recruitment. We have had to put in interim solutions, particularly for consultant cover. There are a number of systems in place to provide consultant cover on site. One of the main areas identified by us and the Mental Health Commission is that it is much safer to work in clinical directorates as opposed to in isolated silos. We are advertising and interviewing for a clinical director for that region to ensure consistency and assurance in the area.

There is still a deficiency in that area. The problem has still not been resolved.

Dr. Amanda Burke

There is no consultant psychiatrist on site five days a week. However, there is a consultant on site two days a week.

Dr. Burke would accept that two days a week is not adequate. That is not two days out of five but two days out of seven.

Dr. Amanda Burke

The area also has access to a consultant during the week via telepsychiatry. There are robust procedures in place for that.

It is very hard to explain to parents that they cannot get access to a service because they happen to be living in a particular area. I am wondering how we can deal with this issue. What are the challenges as regards recruiting someone to deal with the issue?

Dr. Amanda Burke

There are two points to be made. We must be honest with parents. Sometimes we cannot provide the service on site in every area of the country. That would be analogous to all areas of mental health. We must have centres of excellence to provide treatment and we will sometimes have to ask people to travel or will have to take a blended approach.

If there are difficulties in one area, is there a need to offer an appointment elsewhere? Would a person, for example, work two days in one area and three days in another?

Dr. Amanda Burke

They have done that.

Mr. David Walsh

The Deputy is correct in saying that all of the issues in the area have not been fixed. Dr. Burke is describing how we are currently trying to cover services in that area. We also need to continue to recruit in a more targeted way in order to get people permanently into those positions. It is useful that in that area, there have been a number of other developments that support services in a broader way, including in mental health for those with intellectual disabilities and other areas. We need to continue to specifically recruit in a targeted way not only in that area but also in other pockets of the country where we have recruitment deficits.

May I ask a final question?

Please do not. I do not have the time. I will change things up by allowing in Deputy Lahart, who has not come in yet. I will come in after that before I go back to the normal order.

I thank our witnesses. I always try to put myself in the witnesses' chairs. I am sure they are not comfortable. Mr. Kelly is the assistant national director for child and youth mental health.

Mr. Donan Kelly

I have just started in recent weeks.

I wish Mr. Kelly the very best of luck. We do not have enormous expectations of him today but perhaps we will the next time he is before the committee. If he is the assistant national director, who is the national director?

Mr. David Walsh

I am.

We have gone through some of the notes, the witness statements and the written evidence that was presented to us.

The Chair and I represent an area in CHO 7. Perhaps for the benefit of people watching the meeting, the HSE is divided into numbered community health areas, and mine is No. 7. In broad brushstrokes, CHO 7 includes north Kildare and south Dublin. It is one of those areas that does not seem to rate very well in respect of CAMHS, and I will say a few more bits on that. Why is that? Why do different community health areas provide completely different experiences for parents and children to the point where it was described in Dr. Finnerty’s report as a postcode lottery? I am very familiar with that dealing with constituents.

Mr. David Walsh

There are a number of things at play. First, there are two separate services within CHO 7. It is divided between the Linn Dara service and the Lucena Clinic service for CAMHS. I think it goes to the heart of Dr. Finnerty’s report in that both the Lucena Clinic and Linn Dara services do good work but it is a function of all of the available healthcare within that broader area. One of the key takeaways I took from her report was on integration between primary care, mental health services and disability services. Both the disability services and primary care services struggle badly in CHO 7 with being able to recruit and retain staff. The mental health services have similar problems within those areas. Adding those three services together, it becomes very difficult for parents to navigate and get the services they need for their children. My colleagues here today are looking at it from the child and youth mental health perspective but they need to move hand in hand with disability and primary care services so that the whole becomes greater than any of the individual parts. In CHO 7, there are vacancies on many of the children’s disability network teams as well as in public health nursing and at therapy level in primary care services. Even though we continue to try to recruit into all of those services, it is an ongoing issue.

One of the criticisms is that there does not seem to be a lateral thinking approach. This is not a personal criticism; I am trying to be helpful. I am a Government Deputy. What can Government do to assist? Mr. Walsh is talking about it from a helicopter view and level, looking down on it, yet we talk to parents who have a 15- or 16-year-old with urgent and acute needs who have to wait. From that perspective, it is unacceptable. One of the criticisms is that the system does not seem to be agile or flexible enough, or no one sits down and acknowledges there is a shortage. I would like to give the witnesses an opportunity to tell us the things they think the HSE does well and what is done in a situation where primary care or specialists are not available because the HSE cannot employ them. What does it do as an organisation? What reassurance can HSE officials give a parent who has an adolescent or a child who is hearing that? What they will hear is that it sounds like they will be waiting interminably. What kind of discussions and tangible things happen in CHO 7, for example, and in the HSE at a higher level that would give people some kind of comfort that the executive is aware and alive to the urgency and acuteness of this?

Mr. David Walsh

I will refer to two things. First, where children are referred to CAMHS – the figure was in the opening statement – the vast majority of urgent referrals, some 94%, are seen or addressed within three days. However, we have work under way to try to draw together the primary care, disability and mental health services. Perhaps Mr. Kelly can talk about that.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Going forward, we would like to look at that integration and that single point of access. We have some work under way to look at that single point of access across children’s services so that people are not waiting on multiple waitlists. We know sometimes GPs refer to multiple services because they are not sure who will pick it up. Obviously, there is an inefficiency in people having to wait on numerous waitlists for a period. That is one action under way. It is important for people to understand that in respect of CAMHS at the moment, as Mr. Walsh referenced, 94% of urgent referrals are seen within three days. We also have developments under way to enhance CAMHS services around those crisis aspects and pathways, for example, the CAMHS care hubs that are being trialled in various different areas.

What is a CAMHS care hub?

Dr. Amanda Burke

CAMHS hubs are a real alternative to inpatient care. Essentially, they are for young people who need enhanced, brief episodes of care so they do not have to go into inpatient units. We have five pilot CAMHS hubs at various stages of development. They are in CHOs 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8, with a plan to role them out nationally following evaluation.

What personnel do they involve?

Dr. Amanda Burke

They are different depending on the area. The area I work in, Galway–Mayo–Roscommon, is the most developed. It has consultants, senior registrars, senior psychologists, a senior social worker, an occupational therapist and input from three advanced nursed practitioners. It is quite well developed.

Where is the setting located?

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is between two hubs, namely, Castlerea and Galway city, and the teamwork between those.

Are those primary care centres?

Dr. Amanda Burke

No, they are dedicated mental health centres.

The Chair and I share the same constituency. We attended a meeting where many parents of young adults with disabilities and special needs were present. They talked about how those kids, adolescents and adults get lost in respect of their mental health needs. The disability piece is one element, but the parents spoke about how there are so few supports if they have a combined mental health challenge alongside their disability. One parent recently told me of bringing an adult and a child to a particular hospital, waiting for hours and hours for a mental health emergency only to be told that was not their hospital. This was in Dublin. This seems to be an unusual response. Can the witnesses respond regarding what kind of interventions or supports are available for people with special needs and disabilities and mental health needs?

Dr. Amanda Burke

I will take that. It is important to note that anybody who has mental health needs can be seen by CAMHS. I think there is a rhetoric out there that people with autism are not seen by CAMHS. Should somebody have a moderate to severe mental illness, they should, and will be, seen by CAMHS.

We have been working on an autism assessment protocol. Most of the feedback we get from our families is related to people with ASD and I think that is what the Deputy might be alluding to. This protocol is being piloted in two areas. Essentially, it means the assessment will take place either in primary care or in the community disability network teams. Should CAMHS assessment and intervention be required, CAMHS will in-reach into these services. The benefit for young people is they are not moved between two services; they can attend two services at the same time.

Ideally, the disability and CAMHS teams would work together. The two pilot sites have completed phase 1, and one of the areas has actually continued with the initiative because, pragmatically, it has found that it has worked so well. We are moving on to extend it to four areas.

I have just a couple of questions. The last group of witnesses we had in, from the Mental Health Commission, spoke about the commission's 49 recommendations. Does the HSE accept those 49 recommendations? How long will it take to implement them?

Mr. David Walsh

The HSE accepts the report of the commission. We are working to implement the recommendations but we are also working to a broader programme, including the outcome of the Maskey review and internal HSE-commissioned audits on prescribing and compliance with our own guidelines. The 49 commission recommendations are incorporated into the other recommendations along with the programme of work we already have from the policy document Sharing the Vision. They have all been amalgamated and condensed into one programme, which will be led by my two colleagues who are present. We have within the HSE an internal governance structure chaired by the chief operating officer. I am referring to a national oversight group to manage and monitor progress. Our intention is to have the plan finalised and brought to our own governance structures during this month. We will be engaging very closely with the Mental Health Commission on implementation.

That is really good news. The lack of service uniformity was touched on in respect of where key personnel may be missing and where there is a lack of clinical leadership. Do the representatives accept there is genuine concern about the services in this regard? The commission's report shows that some aspects are working really well while others are not. It also refers to the overall structure. Does Mr. Walsh accept that this needs to be addressed?

Mr. David Walsh

Definitely. We are clear that we need to continue to invest in child, adolescent and youth mental health services. Some of the governance issues that came up in the Mental Health Commission's review included the lack of an integrated IT system, which can hamper the continuity of care, the transfer of care and case management. Other issues may include gaps related to human resources. There are four clinical directors but we need to expand the number to ensure full coverage and a fully integrated governance structure for child and youth mental health services in the future.

Hopefully, the roll-out of the RHA programme will improve the services.

Mr. Walsh's opening statement referred to the 3,891 children waiting to be seen and the 10% increase in appointments offered. The latter is positive but I am thinking of the people listening at home with a child affected. Deputy Lahart referred to CHO 7 and the 364 children affected there. Can any positive news be given to their families on the time it will take to go through the list?

We have heard there is a postcode lottery regarding how the services are being rolled out, but will roll-out take even longer where there are key personnel missing? Will it take years to deal with the 3,800 children?

Mr. David Walsh

There are two aspects to that. This is the first year that, in community services, we have had access to structured waiting list funds in a serious sort of way. We have invested this year to try to get to those waiting the longest. However, to be effective we have to build capacity so we can see who is coming in the front door as well. We need to continue to build the capacity and plug the gaps the Chair mentioned, but also consider in a structured way the long waiters and innovative ways to address the need.

Dr. Amanda Burke

We are currently going through an exercise of validation of the waiting list. As Mr. Kelly stated, there can be people on multiple waiting lists. In addition to validation, we need visibility on who is waiting for what. The Cathaoirleach has alluded to gaps in certain areas. It is a matter of national oversight, including oversight of who is waiting. Many of the young people waiting are waiting for ADHD assessments. We have a new lead for ADHD who will be developing a pathway. If we have a national overview, we can target those concerned through waiting list initiatives, stabilise young people on treatment and feed them back to their community mental health teams. Similarly, if there are young people waiting for anxiety treatment or cognitive behavioural therapy treatment programmes, it is possible to target them at group level rather than at the level of each team. That would be more effective. We will have to take a two-tier approach. Most of the community teams are currently tied up with urgent and emergency cases, which is why they are not getting to the routine cases. Therefore, we will have to dedicate staff specifically to dealing with people on waiting lists.

There is an air of desperation among many families. Some go through the courts looking for supports and services. This option is not available to everyone because not everyone has the finances.

Let me refer to another issue. It is local but not necessarily so. Regarding CHO 7, the Mental Health Commission's report states up to 30% of children on antipsychotic medication have not had blood tests or their height or weight checked before being prescribed that medication. Is that unusual? Is it an anomaly in the area in question? Is it a pattern right across the State? Are the witnesses aware of this?

Dr. Amanda Burke

We are absolutely aware of that.

I am just giving the example of CHO 7 but the issue arises in other areas as well.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It has happened in other areas, but the audit on medication chaired independently by Dr. Colette Halpin showed that 90% of young people had physical health monitoring. Therefore, it is an anomaly that has been identified. Reassurance has now been given that the young people have been caught up with.

In the bit of Dr. Hillery's contribution that I caught, he was speaking about the experience of young people who have to go to general practitioners and about the latter not having access to the medication. We are considering streamlining the process. For example, we have brought in physical health monitoring clinics for our whole region. They are holistic clinics that not only look after the physical health parameters but also give young people dietetics and exercise advice, so we are approaching it holistically. In each of the CHO areas, or the RHA areas, as they will be, we will be considering this in total. Individual teams struggle and it is easier to proceed in a group.

I would have imagined that measuring height and weight would have been one of the simpler steps. It is done regularly if you go into a hospital for serious treatment, and not much work is involved. A specialised group is not needed to weigh someone.

How much of a challenge is having appropriate facilities to provide services? In many of our areas, there are many vacant buildings that could be adapted. We are told it is not a case of money and so on; however, if facilities comprise a key element, what needs to be done? How much do we need to roll out in this regard?

Mr. David Walsh

Physical infrastructure is of mixed quality across the country. An audit has taken place, so maybe Mr. Kelly can answer the question.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Following the issuing of the interim report, we have undertaken an audit of all CAMHS bases across the whole country. The various recommendations are being fed into the national mental health capital plan in terms of how we address some of the issues.

There will be work with the local CHO teams in looking at immediate areas of concern. All the properties have been red, amber, green, RAG, rated to decide which we see as fulfilling a good base from which to deliver services down to those we think require a solution. We make the latter a priority to build them into the plan.

Mr. David Walsh

It is worth saying that the solution needs to be that CAMH services are co-located, where appropriate, with primary care and disability services so that there is one door for the public, that is, one physical door and one referral doorway. That is important.

I thank the HSE for attending today. I wish Dr. Burke and Mr. Kelly the best in their new roles.

I spent the recess meeting some youth mental health services, including CAMHS. I met Lucena CAMHS. The staff who are working there are doing their best. They are being let down by systemic and historical failures and sometimes by a lack of governance, which are outside their control. I want to put that on the record. When people come into this line of work, it is a vocation. They want to help children and to do their best. Sometimes it looks like we are being overly critical of CAMHS. It is not the staff; it is more the systemic failures.

I will touch on a statement made earlier, which is also in the report. It is that 94% of all urgent cases were responded to within three working days. Do the witnesses stand over that?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Those are the latest figures that have come out of our monthly key performance indicator, KPI, reporting for August.

Okay, Mr. Kelly stands over it.

How are these urgent cases responded to?

Dr. Amanda Burke

The relevant community mental health teams respond through outpatient appointments.

Is that a physical appointment or a notification of an appointment to a parent?

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is a physical appointment.

Someone will get an appointment within three days.

Dr. Amanda Burke

For an urgent case.

Are attempted suicide, suicidal ideation, eating disorders or deliberate self-harm deemed to be urgent?

Dr. Amanda Burke

It depends on the severity of symptom presentation. You would need to look at the particular referral. Not all episodes of deliberate self-harm equate to suicidality, but suicidality would definitely be urgent and it would depend on the severity of the eating disorder.

The report tells me, for example, that there is a 190-day wait for an appointment for deliberate self-harm. There is a 60-day wait for an appointment relating to suicidal intent. There is a 200-day wait for an appointment for suicidal ideation and it is 100 days for eating disorders. It does not add up that 94% of urgent cases are getting an appointment within three days. People who are going to CAMHS for help with these severe symptoms are not getting appointments within an appropriate time.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is important to look at the classification in the report. I understand it came from the referral criteria, from the referrer. Our figures come from the classification as urgent as applied by the CAMHS operational guidance post triage, which is after the team looks at the case and speaks to the referrer. There could be a difference due to that.

The report does not mention 94%. It states that 92.7% of all urgent cases are being seen within three days. When the Mental Health Commission was before the committee, I asked how the cases were responded to. Its representatives could not tell me if it was through an appointment, a letter or a phone call to parents to say someone had an appointment. That could have been recorded as a case being seen to within three days. Is there any difference between the figure in the Mental Health Commission's report and the 94% figure referred to by the witnesses today?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Obviously, KPI figures change from month to month. We report on a monthly basis which is why there is a variation in the figure. As Dr. Burke explained, the measure of the KPI is the child or young person and their family being seen.

We talk about universal standards across all the CHOs. Is an urgent case in CHO 1 the same as in CHO 7 or is it down to how local teams look at things? Is a standard set for that?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Again, that is part of the triage process. Some of this is based on clinical understanding and interpretation of what is there at that time. Broadly, people work in the same way when they clinically triage cases, but there will be a natural variation dependent on need. Dr. Burke explained that there are nuances in the presentation of how a person is at a given time, which determine the level of urgency. A clinical decision is made by the particular team.

I am my party's spokesperson on mental health. I deal with parents all the time who tell me that their GP, or whoever refers to them to CAMHS, deems theirs to be an urgent case, especially cases of suicidal intent. Young people who have attempted suicide have still waited 60 days. There seems to be an anomaly between the figure of 94% being presented here and what parents say to me. They tell me they might get a phone call or a letter from CAMHS. Are either of those things recorded as a response in respect of that rate of 94%?

Mr. David Walsh

Deputy Ward raised an issue. Dr. Burke has outlined our view on it but I am happy to review those figures and come back to the committee with more detail on that. It is hard to know. I would be interested to hear specific examples so we could tease it through. I would be happy to do so.

Okay, I accept that for now.

Integrated IT systems were also mentioned, which are important in 2023. They should have been implemented a long time ago. I met Lucena CAMHS in CHO 6, which also has an impact in CHO 7 and it has an integrated IT system. The front end does not look great but the back end does its job. That is the way it was described to me. It seems to be working. It even raises red flags if a child has not been seen in six months or if medication has not been monitored in six months. The system lets the team know. Why has this not been rolled out across other CHO areas?

Mr. David Walsh

That system was commended in the commission review. I believe it is not possible to use that specific system but we are working to implement a system in the short term. We also have a longer-term plan. Mr. Kelly may know more.

Mr. Donan Kelly

We are moving towards a fully integrated clinical management system across all community health services, including CAMHS. It will take time. We are at the stage of looking at procurement for that. I can assure the Deputy that an interim solution is being looked at. We have looked at some systems that are available and we are trying to progress that quickly for the new office, so that a similar system is implemented.

Are there any timelines, even indicative ones?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Dependent on procurement and other issues, we are hoping to have the system implemented in the next six to eight months.

That is welcome.

It was mentioned that, since their appointments, Dr. Burke and Mr. Kelly have been working on a report and finalising a detailed plan for the delivery of improvements. Where is the plan? When will it be published and when will we see it?

Mr. Donan Kelly

It is quite a wide ranging plan. There were 49 recommendations and, as I mentioned, they link with current programmes of work that are under way under the national mental health plan, Sharing the Vision: A Mental Health Policy for Everyone. On overarching sharing with the Mental Health Commission, we have agreed to share where we are on the plan by the end of the month. A full published report is expected in quarter 2 of 2024.

My last question concerns the number one recommendation from the report on CAMHS regarding the regulation of the service under the Mental Health Commission. Is this something the HSE would welcome in respect of independent oversight? What is the opinion of the witnesses in this regard?

Mr. David Walsh

The HSE has no issue with regulation. As I think I said earlier, regulation is a positive thing in any well-developed healthcare environment. To meet whatever standard would be set, which we would be interested in contributing to, as well as providing the regulatory framework in this regard, we need to provide the resources to meet the standard. We would, though, welcome regulation.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their presentation. I wish Mr. Kelly and Dr Burke well in their important roles. In some ways, it is regrettable that the chief executive is not here because he is ultimately responsible for the allocation of posts. Will Mr. Walsh give us some background on the decision that led to the standing down of the national director for mental health?

Mr. David Walsh

I am not sure I can give that background to the Deputy in exact detail.

How long had that post existed?

Mr. David Walsh

It was there from 2015, when we moved into that structure.

When was it stood down then?

Mr. David Walsh

I think it was in 2018. I apologise-----

That is roughly the situation. Is there any discussion within the HSE on reinstating that post?

Mr. David Walsh

It is an issue that is brought up with the chief executive from time to time, but I have not been involved in any direct discussions about the post being reinstated.

Earlier, there was a lot of discussion with the witnesses from the Mental Health Commission about the absence of a clear governance structure for mental health services generally and specifically concerning CAMHS. Will Mr. Walsh take us through the governance structure for CAMHS?

Mr. David Walsh

I will take it from the top down. I am sorry; it is a long chain. The chief executive delegates responsibility to the chief operating officer and I get a delegation from him. That delegation goes from me to the chief officers across the nine CHOs. Each of those has a head of service for mental health. This covers both CAMHS and other mental health services. To support me in the discharge of my duties, I have a mental health operations team. Up until very recently, this covered the full remit of mental health. With recent developments, however, we now have a dedicated child and youth mental health office, with Dr. Burke and Mr. Kelly.

Within CHOs, then, the structure is that there is an executive clinical director in each of those. Four CHOs also have clinical directors specifically for CAMHS services; the others do not. In those services that do not have a specific CAMHS clinical director, that service comes directly under the remit of the executive clinical director, ECD. That is the structure.

It can be seen why there is not a clear focus. This is a major issue concerning the failure to provide adequate and timely services in a streamlined way to children and adolescents. Mr. Walsh has a vast area of responsibility, and the idea of just lumping in mental health services does not seem to make a great deal of sense. How many CHOs do not have clinical directors?

Mr. David Walsh

Yes.

Mr. David Walsh

I think there are four clinical directors in post. Dr. Burke can comment on this.

Dr. Amanda Burke

The clinical director structure grew up around the approved centres. The four clinical directors in place are where there are inpatient CAMHS beds. Yesterday, we interviewed for a clinical director for CHO 5. There is also a vacant post in the Cork-Kerry area, for which interviews are currently being held. When the RHAs are stood up, it is planned that there will be a clinical director in each of those. We have put-----

I am sorry, but how many of the nine CHOs do not have clinical directors?

Dr. Amanda Burke

There are four now and one in process, which means there are four CHOs without clinical directors.

The last time the witnesses were before the committee in February, it was confirmed that staffing levels range between 45% and 75% of the target. How many of the CAMHS teams are now fully staffed?

Mr. David Walsh

I think Mr. Kelly has those data.

Mr. Donan Kelly

I thank the Deputy for the question. Overall, against the Vision for Change staffing levels, we have 81% across the country as of the end of July. Now, that varies-----

What is it 81% of?

Mr. Donan Kelly

It is 81% of staffing levels against the Vision for Change model for the CAMHS teams.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Yes.

My question, and I do not know if Mr. Kelly has the information here, is on the number of teams that are fully staffed, or rather the number of those that are not.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Yes. This varies across CHO. It ranges from CHO 9, which is at 100% of staffing level, down to CHO 8, where the staffing level stands at 63%. It is, therefore, variable across each of the CHOs.

I will ask my question again: how many teams are fully staffed now?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Measured against the Vision for Change policy model, it is one.

It is one out of nine.

Mr. David Walsh

It is eight out of the 75.

Mr. Donan Kelly

I am sorry. It is eight out of the 75 teams.

I am sorry, what was that figure?

Mr. David Walsh

There are 75 CAMHS teams split across the nine CHOs.

Mr. David Walsh

Against the Vision for Change policy targets, the best resourced is CHO 9.

Is that fully resourced?

Mr. David Walsh

It is, but I am not sure those Vision for Change targets take into account the current population.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Regarding the current population and demands in this context, if we look at the change in the population, we know it has significantly increased.

Even going on outdated figures, how many teams are not fully staffed?

Mr. David Walsh

It is the vast majority of teams.

Mr. Donan Kelly

Yes.

Mr. David Walsh

Leaving aside CHO 9, none of the other eight is at a 100% staffing level. We can give the Deputy more detail on this.

I would appreciate that very much, but the overall statement that only one of the CHOs has a fully staffed team is pretty damning.

Moving on, it was said that the HSE is working to implement the 49 recommendations from the report of the Mental Health Commission. What structure is in place to progress the implementation of these recommendations?

Mr. David Walsh

It is multilayered. A national oversight group is chaired by the chief operating officer. The work to devise and implement the plan then comes via the child and youth mental health office, working and engaging with the nine CHOs.

Who is ultimately responsible for implementing these recommendations?

Mr. David Walsh

I am the delegated person reporting to the chief operating officer.

That is among all Mr. Walsh's other responsibilities.

Mr. David Walsh

Yes.

Are there written progress reports on implementation in this regard?

Mr. David Walsh

There are regular meetings and reports are submitted to that national oversight group.

When was the most recent report?

Mr. David Walsh

There is one from approximately a fortnight ago.

Perhaps that report could be supplied to the committee.

Mr. David Walsh

I will look at the data and come back to the committee.

It would be helpful because we need some kind of reassurance that the necessary resources, management time and priority are being dedicated to implementing this critically important report.

Have CAMHS teams been granted access to Healthlink and appropriate ICT software for improved communication?

Mr. Donan Kelly

That recommendation is in progress. A working group is looking at that implementation.

Mr. Donan Kelly

That recommendation has a working group, which is progressing that at this time. It has not happened yet but there is a work stream working on delivery and looking at how that information is delivered to the CAMHS team.

When Mr. Kelly says there is a work stream, who exactly is responsible for that?

Mr. Donan Kelly

I would have to come back on the specific details of the person who is the lead senior responsible officer for that.

What is the timeline for ensuring all teams have that access?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Again, I would have to refer back to the Deputy.

I welcome Mr. Walsh, Dr. Burke and Mr. Kelly to the meeting and thank them for their opening statements. First, they said 94% of urgent cases were responded to within three working days. What percentage of cases were described as urgent?

Mr. Donan Kelly

It varies from month to month depending on the referrals that come in but it averages at 23% of the overall cases that are triaged.

Since 2013, they say there has been an additional 20 teams out of the 75. Is it their view that iis sufficient or with a growing population, are there plans or is there a desire to increase that?

Mr. David Walsh

There is definitely a need for ongoing investment. I mentioned in the opening statement that the current budget for CAMHS services is approximately €137 million out of a total mental health budget of approximately €1.2 billion. I do not have the exact figure but it is in or around that. We need to continue to invest for many years to get to the point where we can provide the sort of service we aspire to.

I am familiar with the Jigsaw service in Galway. Is that being rolled out across the country or what level of roll-out has taken place?

Mr. Donan Kelly

We have 13 Jigsaw teams across the country. As Mr. Walsh alluded to, there is a lot of work to do on the broader integrated services that deliver services to children and young people. It is not only about the statutory CAMHS services but also our voluntary community social enterprise partners and early intervention as well as the crisis services at the more acute end of the spectrum such as the CAMHS care hubs that we mentioned, hospital liaison teams and other home treatment services. It is a significant programme of work that will require investment over time to fully deliver an overarching child and youth model that wraps around young people's and families' needs.

Mr. Walsh mentioned growth in demand, staff retention issues and recruitment difficulties. What plans has the HSE in place to address the challenges of recruiting and retaining staff and ensuring there are sufficient numbers coming through the education system? Is there engagement with, for example, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science?

Mr. David Walsh

Yes. In recent years, in partnership with the colleges, we have invested pretty significantly in increasing the number of places, with student nurse places in particular and also training pathways for doctors. We need to get that to translate into staff who graduate and come into our service and stay with us. A key component of what we need to do over the coming period is to focus on targeting on the areas that are not attracting or retaining staff and have much more targeted competitions to attract people to those locations. There is a mix of urban and not-so-urban. For example, even the Linn Dara inpatient service struggles all the time to retain nursing and other staff but also to fill key clinical posts right across the system. That will be a key component of our child and youth mental health plan.

Is the struggle based on the cost of living and accommodation in certain areas or are there other factors?

Mr. David Walsh

It is certainly cited. Two of the Deputies, including the Chair, referenced to CHO 7. We struggle across the spectrum to retain staff in that area, although interestingly we have been more successful on the north side of Dublin in retaining nursing staff, in particular.

Professor Lucey from the Mental Health Commission was before the committee earlier and he spoke about the importance of the teams or the collective and when staff from key disciplines are missing, how well the team works.

Dr. Amanda Burke

I will come in here. In isolation it does not work well. That is why were are looking at the clinical directorate model so that we can share across teams. It is also important to colocate teams. For example, it can be difficult to get psychologists for talking therapy, so they can work across a number of teams for particular specialist therapies. It is important to view it as a collective rather than isolated teams because they do not work very well if they are denuded and there are only a couple of team members.

So the team would have a geographic area but would co-operate with the adjoining team.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Yes.

Obviously, there is no sense in someone coming from Athlone to Galway, or whatever. Presumably, there would have to be distance.

Dr. Amanda Burke

They would need to be geographically proximate, yes. It does not have to be the young person who travels; it could be the staff member who travels and can do a clinic there. If people have oversight of a number of teams, they know where the gaps are and can prioritise the targeted recruitment and then cover off therapies over a number of areas.

During the earlier session, mention was made the young person who was two years waiting for an assessment and then turned 18 years and then off they went to adult services. What sort of transition processes does the HSE have for an overlap? If someone is 17 years and 364 days old and has intense assistance as part of a team, what happens when they hit 18 in terms of the knowledge, personnel and so on?

Dr. Amanda Burke

In some areas it is not working particularly well. The CAMHS operational guidance lays out clear criteria for what to do when a young person is transferred over but we all recognise that 18 is very young to be transferring a young person over to the adult services. A recommendation in Sharing the Vision is to extend the youth mental health service up to 25 years. A specific group, which I am on, is looking at those transition pathways in the short, medium and long term. It will give recommendations to next week, I think. We have proposed transition co-ordinators in the short term. We are also looking at the single point of access. We are looking at bolstering, in the initial stages, the clinical programmes to work across the age range because we have clinical programmes on eating disorders and early intervention in psychosis and deliberate self-harm. If those teams are colocated they can work across that age gap. It is really hard for a young person, if they have started therapy with somebody, to be handed over to another therapist. We are hoping to eventually do away with that.

That makes sense. Obviously, additional resources would be needed to ensure that transition.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Absolutely.

That makes perfect sense. There would be a worry that there would be a cliff edge for people who are particularly vulnerable. They get used to a team, the therapies and all of that.

Regarding some of the other disciplines - the dieticians, psychologists, and psychiatrists - does each team have the same disciplines? Is there a standard approach across the different teams?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Under A Vision for Change standard multidisciplinary teams were laid out. Sharing the Vision went one step further to say there should be additionality. Depending on particular areas there may need to be different focuses. Dietetics, for example, is not on every team but obviously access to a dietician is important for every team. We might not need one for every team but each regional area needs to look and see what they need to support those multidisciplinary teams.

In general, do they have the same?

Dr. Amanda Burke

In general they have the same core staffing.

Previously, one of the challenges was that if a team did not have a psychologist, for instance, it could not move on as regards supports and so on. The idea of colocation or of sharing that psychologist with two or three areas is so that there is movement in the cases of children in that particular area. Is that it?

Dr. Amanda Burke

We aspire to having one in each area but at the moment, the supply is not there. We need to look at the needs of those particular young people and how best we can meet them, and share our resources as needed.

I thank the witnesses and wish Dr. Burke and Mr. Kelly well in their new roles. We have to remember the workers who work in CAMHS. They do a phenomenal amount of work and I have no doubt they are probably burnt out a lot of the time with the work they do.

With regard to the Mental Health Commission's report, does Mr. Walsh agree with what it said, that there is a lack of governance and consistency?

Mr. David Walsh

The review points out certain inconsistencies which we recognise in relation to the clinical director structure and things like that. We absolutely recognise governance gaps because of the IT deficits. To reassure ourselves as regards our performance, we also conducted some of the audits we referenced regarding prescribing, and compliance with our own guidelines and we got some reassurance from that. However, we recognise the Mental Health Commission has pointed out certain obvious things we were definitely aware of anyway and these things form part of our plans in terms of trying to address them. I certainly do not doubt what it said in its review.

I will come to the staffing issue. It is quite shocking to think there is only one CHO that is fully staffed. We are in an actual crisis. Will the witnesses give an overview of what the staffing issues are? What is going on? What is happening with regard to staffing? I think it was CHO 7 Mr. Kelly spoke about earlier and said cannot it get staffing. What are the issues? Is it because of housing? Can something be done about that?

Mr. Donan Kelly

Obviously, this is not a problem that is just facing Ireland. There is a lack of workforce coming out in numerous countries. I have just come from the NHS and it is a very similar picture there in terms of the numbers of recruits coming out and of filling those posts. There are some particular issues here in relation to the cost of living, etc. What is probably most important is that we are looking at those longer workforce plans in the HSE at the moment. Those pieces of work are already under way, looking at the number of recruits coming out and how we bolster those services. As we mentioned previously, and Mr. Walsh mentioned specifically, we need to look at bespoke packages of recruitment around CAMHS going forward. We have already initiated some discussions around taking that forward because, as we know at the moment, while we have people who are driving down the wait list and we have wait list initiatives, it is not sustainable. What we need to do is work alongside while this programme is going on to boost the recruitment in those areas through a dedicated package.

Mr. David Walsh

I might add that one of the issues impacting us is that the service in relative terms is quite small. We need to grow the service, which may sound contradictory when we cannot recruit. When people are convinced that there is a service that will be effective and will meet the needs of the children and young people in their area, and have confidence in that service, it becomes much easier to attract people into it. We have gotten investment over the past couple of years and we need to continue to try to grow that service. As Senator Kyne mentioned, if we are to expand more into the youth space, it will definitely require investment to attract people into that.

This morning the witnesses from the Mental Health Commission spoke about the importance of a national director. I believe a national director is needed just to put mental health on the map and to make mental health a priority. What is Mr. Walsh's feeling about having a national director? Does he think it would possibly make his life easier and be that core piece that is missing when it comes to mental health in this country? How does he think it could benefit him in his work and benefit CAMHS in general?

Mr. David Walsh

We are currently going through a process related to the next iteration of the HSE's structures. It is important that as part of that the Oireachtas and other stakeholders are assured as to how mental health will be considered and what prominence it will have in that new structure. That is a work in progress. It is a really important component that the chief executive officer, CEO, can come back into this committee and demonstrate how mental health will be considered as part of that new structure. As I understand it, there will be a smaller centre and more devolved functions out across six areas. There will be two areas of importance. One will be at the very centre of the organisation, how mental health is situated and how it influences both the Department and the HSE board and CEO. Then there are the structures within those six regions as to who will own mental health and who will implement these national strategies with the national office.

Is Mr. Walsh saying that he does not think a national director is a good idea?

Mr. David Walsh

I am just saying that the future structure has not been decided. It is obvious from what many members said today, and it is not the first time they have said it, that they want assurance about how mental health will feature within that structure. I will bring that back to the CEO. I have no issue in doing that.

Okay. I thank Mr. Walsh.

We have reached the end of the meeting. On behalf of the committee, I extend thanks to the witnesses for their attendance, assistance and many responses to our questions today. Although it was mentioned near the end, we did not really touch on moving towards the age of 25 and the big gap there is between child, youth, and adult services. We would like to see a seamless transfer of services and supports there. We have raised a lot of issues. On behalf of the committee, I ask the witnesses to thank their teams for the really important and vital work they carry out day in, day out.

I wish them well in their work. It is perhaps something on which we as a committee could also make a number of recommendations to hopefully move on the recommendations that come out of the Mental Health Commission report. I thank our witnesses again for their assistance to the committee. The meeting is adjourned until 17 October at 4 p.m when the committee will meet again in private session. Separately, the Select Committee on Health will meet in public session tomorrow at 1.30 p.m. I thank everyone very much for their attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2023.
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