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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2023

Consideration and Implications of 2024 Health Services Funding: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Hourigan and Senator Hoey. The agenda is consideration of health services funding in 2024. The purpose of this meeting is for the joint committee to consider the adequacy of funding for health services in 2024 and the implications of the funding levels proposed for services and for the recruitment of personnel within the health service. The meeting will end no later than 1 p.m. and there will be a break at a time yet to be decided.

From the Department of Health, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Mr. Kevin Colman, principal officer, and Ms Louise McGirr, assistant secretary. From the HSE, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Bernard Gloster, CEO, Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer, and Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director of human resources.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory regarding an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. This is also important. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House campus in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts of the Leinster House campus will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask that any member participating via MS Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution.

To commence our consideration of the funding of the health services in 2024, I invite Mr. Watt to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department of Health.

Mr. Robert Watt

I am delighted to be before the committee this morning to consider the funding of health services in 2024. I am joined here by my colleagues from the HSE. Mr Gloster will introduce his colleagues. From the Department of Health resources division, I am joined by Ms Louise McGirr, assistant secretary, and Mr. Kevin Colman, principal officer.

Today we are discussing the budget allocation for the Department of Health of €22.5 billion for 2024 in the context of unprecedented investment in healthcare over the past number of years by successive Governments. Excluding disability services, which transferred to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth last March, since 2016, the budget for health has increased from €11.8 billion to €22.5 billion for 2024. In that same time, there have been record levels of recruitment with the number of whole-time equivalents, WTEs, employed rising by almost 40%. On a like-for-like basis, therefore, we can see an effective doubling in spend over the past eight years. This is more significant investment than many other developed countries. For example, if one looks at NHS England as a comparator, you can see that its budget has increased in the same period from £102 billion to £169 billion - almost 70%. Focusing on the past three years, we have added 22,000 healthcare staff, including 6,700 additional nurses and midwives, 3,100 extra health and social care professionals and 2,500 more doctors and dentists. Furthermore, the Government has increased our hospital bed capacity by over 1,000 and increased ICU capacity by around 25%.

In conjunction with this investment in services, the Minister has introduced a wide variety of affordability measures in line with the Sláintecare vision of universal healthcare, including the abolition of inpatient hospital charges. Free contraception has been rolled out to women up to the age of 30, access to State-funded GP care has been expanded in the largest expansion ever and the threshold for the drugs payments scheme has been reduced to €80 per household per month. The full year cost of these measures is over €240 million per annum.

This record investment is required to meet record increases in demand for health services. Ireland now has its largest population since 1850 and the profile of that population is aging markedly. For example, the number of people aged over 65 has risen by 21.7% since 2016 based on the latest census. It is interesting to consider the scale of the services being provided and the increases in demand faced by the acute system, in particular. I will focus on the acute system today even though it represents one third of the system and not the totality of it. In the 12 months to June this year, the HSE saw over 3.5 million people in outpatient clinics; carried out 1.16-million day case procedures; had 634,476 episodes of inpatient care; and saw 1.68 million patients in emergency departments and injury units. As these represent 178,000 additional patients treated in the year to date compared to the previous 12-month period, we are facing an increase in demand.

As well as treating more people, we also see improved outcomes for those patients who are treated. This can be seen across most specialties but to take one example, the number of Irish people who are living after cancer has grown by more than half over the past decade as survival rates continue to improve. New and more expensive drugs and treatments alongside more and better trained staff are to leading to better outcomes. So when we assess performance output indicators, which is a contested area, it is important to recognise that they do not tell the full picture.

Outcome indicators must also be considered. It is not just about treatment, but also the quality of treatment and the impact it has on citizens who have gone through the system.

While we recognise an increase in activity in our hospitals, with better outcomes for citizens, this has come at an increasingly high cost to the taxpayer. Investment in acute care activity has increased by more than 80% in the past seven years, with acute care expenditure now making up over one third of overall spending. In addition, the hospital workforce has grown by 36% in the same period. Using an economy-wide deflator of circa 25%, this indicates real increases in expenditure of approximately 50%. The number of patients treated has not kept up with this large increase in resourcing, however, with increases of between 10% and 20% in the same period, depending on which matrix is used.

Even accepting improvements in outcomes, this represents a substantial divergence between resourcing and activity. It is not entirely clear but there is what people call a "productivity puzzle" which can be attributed to several factors. People have their own views in this regard but it is fair to assume that some of the factors relate to poor physical infrastructure due to previous underinvestment, particularly in some larger hospitals; lack of IT investment, including digitalisation and capital per person employed; weak processes and outdated pathways; and inadequate consultant-led leadership, including an outdated contract which we have addressed in the context of the new consultant contract. Given this weak productivity, we need to look more deeply at how we can structure and continue to restructure the health service to ensure resources are used more effectively. We share this challenge with many other countries, as spending pressures in health are outpacing government revenue at a time of ever greater health need. To meet this challenge, we are reforming and must continue to change how we deliver those services.

As the health demands of the population continue to grow by 3% to 4% per cent per annum - that sort of increase leads to a doubling in the overall output in 15 or 16 years, so it is very strong growth - we will have to develop innovative and sustainable means of meeting this demand. We already have examples of this. I will not go through it in detail as it has been discussed previously at the committee. The clearly integrated services we have developed for older people, including those with chronic illness, through the enhanced community care programme, ECC, are an example of the shift to the left, however. That will be an increasing feature of service delivery into the future. This programme is helping hundreds of thousands of people manage their health in communities, outside the hospital setting. In the next week, ECC is extending to include an interface with public and private nursing homes to support post-hospital discharge. As part of this approach, it is expected that all patients transferring from acute hospitals to nursing homes will be assessed by, and necessary care interventions delivered by, the integrated care programme for older people and the wider primary care teams. This will help to improve hospital avoidance, support early discharge and reduce readmission to hospital. That is just one example of the impact the ECC is having.

In addition, care pathways are being radically reshaped. That is being led by Dr. Henry and Ms McNamara. We have developed 33 new modernised care pathways, which are being implemented. For example, our integrated eye team for paediatric and acute eye conditions is one such reformed pathway which is implemented as part of the Minister’s 2023 waiting list plan. This community-based service has seen significant results already.

New see-and-treat clinics are another example of reform. In the past two years we have seen a 9% drop in the gynaecological outpatient waiting list despite a 30% increase in referrals. Of our 19 new see-and-treat clinics, 14 are now open, with a further two starting by year end. That has resulted in significant reductions in the time people are waiting for care. Our job is to replicate and scale these models in order that all those who rely on the health service now and in the future can get the right treatment for them when they need it. This will involve significant ongoing investment, but also relentless focus on innovation, change and reform or, in other words, major gains in output and productivity across the system.

Turning to expenditure for this year and the pressures we are seeing, we in the Department and the HSE accept the forecasts for health expenditure need to improve, as does control of expenditure. We are responding to this challenge by improving our use of data, analytical capacity, performance oversight and corporate governance. Savings and efficiencies are also required in the acute health sector and will form part of the service plan which is being developed to give effect to the recent budget. Pay makes up 42% of the budget. There are two principal drivers of pay, namely, the number of people employed and the rate at which they are paid. The pay bill has increased by €3.2 billion since 2016.

Our analysis suggests that 51%, about half, of this growth is due to the recruitment of additional staff and the remaining half is due to pay increases agreed centrally. Measures will need to be taken on recruitment, overtime and agency staff as set out by Mr. Gloster already to arrest and start reducing - where we can - the cost of the pay bill, while ensuring patient safety.

Excluding medicines, non-pay expenditure in the acute sector includes expenditure on medical and surgical supplies, laboratory equipment, heat, lighting, cleaning, maintenance and so on. They are the basic services that are included in the provision of services in hospitals. This expenditure has increased significantly more this year due to both higher demand and higher prices. It is now estimated that expenditure apart from pay and medicines will be almost €2.4 billion this year, which is close to €600 million more than forecast. A large part of the acute overrun, which has been the focus of tension for this year, relates to non-pay expenditure.

To give some examples, while I will not go through all the numbers, we have seen a 23% increase in expenditure on medical and surgical supplies; an 18% increase in heat, power and light; a 28% increase in laboratory costs; a 27% increase in the cost of X-ray and imaging; and a 37% increase in the cost of catering. It is a combination of higher demand and much higher prices that hospitals have to pay for basic items that are required. As part of the initiatives that we are looking at now, we have been challenged by the Government to look at procurement processes and stock management to see how we can drive efficiencies in this area. It will be difficult but we are committed to doing that.

As we have discussed before, a growing area of spending in our health system, along with other countries in the developed world, relates to medicines. The pharmaceutical budget has more than doubled in the last decade from €1.3 billion in 2012 to €2.6 billion in 2022. This year, expenditure is likely to be €2.9 billion. Including payments to contractors such as pharmacists, this expenditure will rise to around €3.2 billion. Nearly €1 in every €8 of funding for health in the public system relates to the pharmaceutical bill. This level of growth is clearly not sustainable and we need to strive to maximise the available investment to provide as many people as possible with access to these medicines.

The pipeline of new drugs is extremely strong. There is significant demand for these life-changing drugs. Higher prices for innovative medicines are a key contributor to growth in the overall budget. Next year, for example, a new class of drugs for Alzheimer’s disease is to be announced. This drug, if approved, could have a budget impact of €100 million annually at list price for an estimated 4,000 patients requiring treatment. That is just in respect of one drug. I believe we can do much more to better use our budget to free up resources for new drugs and innovative drugs by greater use of generic and biosimilar medicines. The new arthritis drug, for example, is now consuming more of the high-tech drug budget than any other medicine and the number of patients requiring it continues to grow.

To address these costs, a best value biologics programme has been launched by our colleagues in the HSE to make use of biosimilars rather than the branded version of these drugs. As a result, 80% of patients have now moved on to the more affordable biosimilar. Recently, the manufacturer of the branded biologic has dropped the price. This is an example of the type of change that is required in order for us to sustain, mitigate the increase in the cost of drugs and provide leeway to fund new medicines that are coming on.

In conclusion, we need better budgetary control, which we are all aware of, and we need more efficiencies and savings in the short run while continuing to deliver reform of our health services. Sláintecare offers a roadmap for achieving this reform and productivity as we need to deliver greater amounts of care closer to home and promise more accessible health services at a lower cost. We need improved pathways, new ways of working and further development of our community-centred model of care. Public health initiatives, in particular the early and continuous prevention of illness, and the promotion of healthy ageing, will be integral to the effective functioning of our healthcare in the future. There is no prospect of continuing to treat ever increasing numbers of ill citizens in our acute settings under the existing structures and pathways of working. It is not sustainable. Ultimately, we are aiming for a country where patients are able to live longer, better lives and are not only treated, but supported by our healthcare services in achieving this.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet to discuss the arrangements for the funding of health services in 2024, the services and the workforce matters. I am joined by my colleagues Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer and Ms Anne Marie Hoey, national director of HR, and I am supported by Ms Sara Maxwell.

In respect of the funded position for the HSE for 2024, my comments and extensive detail are a matter of public record, including that as recorded on the “This Week” programme on RTÉ Radio One on Sunday, 15 October last, following the budget announcement.

The next stage of the process is for the HSE to receive the letter of determination from the Minister and his Department and thereafter to prepare a service plan for 2024 for submission and consideration by the Minister. In respect of the funding for health services for 2024, the position has not changed since my comments of 15 October, other than to note that details of any supplementary allocation in respect of 2023 and the possible implications of that for 2024 remain to be decided.

As noted in my comments of 15 October, the health service has a very significant allocation, much increased in previous years, and this has allowed for extensive progress and growth in many areas of service provision. Coupled with this and notwithstanding the impact of the pandemic, the health service is also experiencing record levels of demand for various clinical and social care services. Until such time as the HSE receives the letter of determination, we are not in a position to elaborate further on the 2024 outlook other than in the comments I have made and widely reported in recent days. The matter of the overall vote for the Department of Health, including its non-HSE activities, is referred to by my colleague, the Secretary General.

I want to turn to two particular issues in my opening remarks that I know are of concern to the committee. The first is in respect of services for 2024. As per my public comments, I anticipate services will continue in 2024. We will see significant focus on two critical areas, which I have emphasised since taking up post and as requested by the Minister and the Department. Those are unscheduled emergency care and access to care and the waiting list action plan. Both of these and the initiatives associated with them are well funded in 2023 and this will continue in 2024. These two areas of service, together with a number of preplanned commitments or new developments arising from beds and capital infrastructure due to be opened, will see an additional workforce of approximately 2,200 whole-time equivalent, WTE, and these cover many of the essential areas of service to be continued.

Committee members will be aware of many new national strategies and programmes developed and commenced in recent years. While in the main these will not see growth in 2024, significant work can be done with the existing resources within these programmes.

It is fair to say overall that 2024 will see these services continue with a focus on consolidation rather than growth. While this will be in the context of a very constrained and challenging financial position, based on all that is known at this time, I assure the committee of the full focus of the board and myself as the CEO in delivering the best level of service possible to those in need of same.

I also want to comment on the issues associated with workforce that I know are of concern to the committee and particularly in respect of the recent recruitment pause, which was extended by me earlier this month. Our workforce has grown considerably as has been previously reported. It was 23,000 additional at the end of September since 2019. This has allowed for significant responses and developments. The HSE will reach, if not exceed, its funded additional net target for 2023 by the end of this year. That is the reason and the sole reason for the pause in respect of certain grades. It is my intention for 2024 that budget holding areas will have a full pay and numbers strategy and allocation within which to work and within which the targets will be very clear. An improved control environment will allow for these targets to be met and maintained on the one hand but not exceeded on the other. This will require a particular co-ordinated focus on existing staff, the management of new posts, the management of the use of agency and overtime and conversion from agency staff to direct employment, where appropriate and possible.

The HSE intends to agree with the Department of Health a clear budget and staffing numbers position in respect of employment costs and management for 2024 and this will have to be managed very carefully. I am aware of the disappointment of many, both in the workforce and externally to the HSE regarding recent decisions associated with staffing controls. I assure the committee and all concerned of my commitment to a continuously improving workforce position, capable of responding to a whole range of needs but also as clearly required within the limitation of the available funded workforce position.

That concludes my opening remarks and I am happy to assist the committee.

I thank Mr. Gloster very much. To put the issues in focus, this is the correct time to discuss them. To what extent were those compiling the Estimates made aware of these issues? Were they made aware of the grievous situation with particular reference to the current year and 2024? I hope that is something that will emerge during the course of the meeting and the extent to which discussions took place on whether or not there was a satisfactory arrangement to agree on the Estimates. We as public representatives and in this committee have to deal with the situation that emerges. We do not deal with the situation behind the scenes during the compilation of the Estimates.

On behalf of members, the first speaker is Senator Martin Conway. He has ten minutes.

I thank the witnesses for coming in today on what is an issue that is concerning an awful lot of people. When the preparatory work for the budget started and the Department engaged initially with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, what was the initial ask in terms of funding? How much additional funding did Mr. Watt look for?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are various iterations of the budget. The way the negotiations tend to go is that we try to work out what we think is the overall need, the existing level of service, ELS, and that involves a back-and-forth exchange between officials in our Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Then there are discussions about new developments, so there are different elements of it. It has become more complex because of the core funding and the Covid funding. At the last committee meeting where I think there was some discussion about this, we set out what we thought were the demands on the system this year and then what we needed next year in terms of the ELS.

What I am trying to get a sense of is what is the difference between what was requested and what was given. What Mr. Watt actually requested was clearly because he felt he needed it to effectively run the Department of Health for 2024 and also accommodate the ambitious targets. I am trying to work out what is the difference between what the Department actually got and what Mr. Watt requested and felt he should have got.

Mr. Robert Watt

For every budget, Departments come forward with a view and there is negotiation and the Government decides. For the cost of this year and next year there would have been an ELS of about €2 billion. I think that is the number we were talking about. The budget settlement is the settlement that the Government has agreed. I think we set it out clearly the last time under questioning. I do not think there is anything to add.

So what the Department secured then was less than 50% of that.

Mr. Robert Watt

No. There is €800 million and then there is separate non-core funding of about €1 billion. That will help to meet the costs for next year. That covers some costs which are included this year, which will be recurring for next year, but depending on how we can sweat some of those costs and how we can manage it, €500 million or €600 million or so of that fund can be used to deal with the costs. That is set out at this stage on a temporary once-off basis. It is not in the base. Obviously we have a challenge to try to sweat out those costs over time.

In his opening statement, Mr. Watt also spoke about the whole issue of orphan drugs, new drugs, and the spiralling cost of drugs. There is a concern, which this committee has articulated before, that we are slow to introduce new drugs in this country compared to other European countries. Could Mr. Watt quickly elaborate on what was contained in his statement in that regard?

Mr. Robert Watt

I was really just setting out the context within which decisions in relation to medicines have to be taken. The increase in spending is incredible and it is not sustainable. We have doubled it in ten years. The pressures are manifold because more people are accessing the high-tech scheme and there are more people on the long-term illness, LTI, scheme. There is also the reduction in the drugs payment scheme, DPS, so that more of the costs are met by the taxpayer as opposed to individuals. There has also been a general expansion in the volume, and there is also the price. I tried to set out a flavour of some of the drugs, which can have an enormous impact on patients that is life-changing. Everybody wants to fund them but there is a challenge for our society. It is a challenge for whatever Government is in office at any particular time.

How to generate the space to fund this is a challenge, not only for our society but also for other societies. I understand many more drugs are coming down the track - perhaps Dr. Henry will elaborate - which are incredibly expensive and for which there will be significant demand. We will have to find ways to fund them.

How much does Mr. Watt expect the overrun to be this year? We are in the third week of October.

Mr. Robert Watt

We are working through that. I understand colleagues will be before the select committee looking for a Supplementary Estimate in the next two or three weeks. We will have an update and set it out for the committee then. It will be of the order we spoke about previously at the committee and that Mr. Gloster spoke about publicly. At this stage, we are not seeing the measures we have put in place leading to a dramatic slowdown in the rate of expansion. Perhaps Mr. Gloster will touch on that. We will probably not see it until next year. The run rate will lead to the types of numbers we spoke about previously.

Mr. Gloster is welcome. On the recruitment embargo, he contended that he does not expect front-line services to be affected. However, we all share the concern he articulated on a radio programme last Sunday week. Will he elaborate on how he believes front-line services will not be affected? There is a concern that they will be.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In that long interview last Sunday week, when I spoke about the workforce and controls on the numbers I was talking about what we are funded to do versus what is needed. They are two different things. Assessments of need could take us to all kinds of places. The workforce we have in place - some of which is above the target that is funded, but is there - and the agency staff and overtime we are using are providing a level of service today. As distinct from cutting that between now and the end of the year, we are capping it. The service the workforce is providing today will continue. That is what I mean when I say front-line services will not be affected. If additional super demand - that is demand in excess of what we predict - were to be repeated next year, as happened this year, we would be challenged in that space. I am not saying the evidence suggests it will be repeated.

I am talking about controlling. I am conscious of the Senator's time. As I said, there are three financial challenges in running the health service: demand above what we expected, inflation and the environment we can control. I have listened extensively to the commentary about the out-of-control health service in which it is said we cannot do or manage anything. The part we can control is what our workforce is funded to do. That is what I am focused on. The simple reality is that I was funded to employ slightly more than an additional 6,000 staff. We are heading for at least that number, if not breaching it. Within that, unfortunately, some grades overtook others.

While I have the opportunity, and I am sure this will not come as a surprise to Mr. Gloster, I will raise concern in the mid-west about funding being made available in the capital programme for a second 96-bed block, which is badly needed. One 96-bed block is under construction and I hope it will open next year. As a result of health and cost inflation and so on, will the timeline for the delivery of the second block be impacted in any way? Perhaps Mr. Gloster will also comment on the latest situation in Limerick hospital. It is of major concern to Mr. Gloster and to the people living in the mid-west.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the capital side, the budget that has been the subject of commentary in the past two weeks is the revenue budget. The capital budget is yet to be finalised, but I understand it will be higher next year than it was this year. I have to wait to see what the capital profile will be.

The Senator will recall from a previous appearance before this committee that I proposed to the Department, which, to be fair, approved it without a second thought, that we would use the efficiency when building the first 96-bed unit to put in the foundation and first-floor shell for a second 96-bed unit. That second unit still has to be approved by the Government and if it is, I presume there will be an allocation in the capital plan coming forward for it. I cannot say what that is at this point.

Mr. Gloster does not have a timeline as to when that second 96-bed block will be approved.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not. That is a decision for the Government in its overall capital planning. The reason I wanted to put in the foundation and the first-floor shell was that it would take a year and a half off the timeline once that project is fully approved. It made sense to do that.

It absolutely did.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That was what that was.

Before the time runs out, Mr. Gloster might comment on the present situation in the emergency department in Limerick hospital.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I heard some of the comments that were reported yesterday. As I have said before at this committee, I do not want to get into splitting hairs about numbers because fundamentally, whatever the relevant number was in Limerick yesterday, it is a serious concern. I do not agree with all of the numbers or how they were commented on. There were approximately 40 people on trolleys who were admitted in the emergency department yesterday. Approximately 18 more were in dedicated spaces, which I consider very appropriate. There were approximately 40 more elsewhere. There was serious pressure that has started to ease a little this morning. I have been in touch with the operational management team to see what additional assistance we can give to those in Limerick hospital and Letterkenny hospital, which has also been the subject of commentary in the past week. We are working hard.

The Senator's time is up.

We will try to keep the debate within the time limits. In the event that time runs out before an answer is provided, the next speaker should take up that point as their first question in order to streamline the debate. I call Deputy Cullinane.

I welcome the witnesses. I will start with Mr. Gloster, if I may. Is the health service adequately funded for 2024?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have been very clear on the public record and I am not going to change the position I articulated last Sunday week. The health service has a lot of money but the cost of running the health service at this point in 2023 and going into 2024 is going to see a deficit position resulting.

The answer then is that the health service is not adequately funded for 2024.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is the case for the cost base we have today. As the Secretary General said, there is much we can do over a long time with efficiencies and digitisation but right now, the cost base that I have to provide health services cannot be sustained in 2024.

Let us unpack that a little. We have to go back to last year to understand better what might happen next year and the funding implications for the health service under budget 2024. When Mr. Gloster was most recently before this committee, he said that the cash deficit for 2023 was likely to be approximately €1.1 billion but what he called the income and expenditure line deficit would be between €1.4 billion and €1.5 billion. He repeated on the "This Week" programme-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is correct.

-----that there would be a deficit in the region of €1.5 billion. Is the estimated deficit for 2023 still approximately €1.5 billion?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I introduced some measures coming into the last quarter around no growth in agency and a small reduction in that regard and in respect of management consultancy and so on. Even still, the income and expenditure balance sheet cost will be in the territory of €1.4 billion to €1.5 billion. I cannot land exactly on the right figure because-----

Okay, but it will be in the territory of €1.4 billion to €1.5 billion.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is absolutely the case.

Mr. Gloster and the Secretary General have been consistent in saying that the two main drivers are the fact that health inflation is running high at the moment and increased demand. There was a third element in relation to cost controls and so on but over two thirds of the deficit is the result of inflation and demand. Is that correct?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is correct. I pointed out clear examples of inflation.

For 2023, we could end up with a deficit of between €1.4 billion and €1.5 billion, as Mr. Gloster has said. If we were to achieve all of the savings and efficiencies about which the Secretary General spoke and which may be put in place for next year, and also taking into account what has been put in place for this year, even if we were to achieve the top end of that, it would not deal with the deficit.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No.

The vast majority of it is outside the control of the HSE. Is that correct?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes. The impact of costs in 2023 and going into 2024 will be fundamentally determined by the Supplementary and Revised Estimates.

I understand that. When a budget is framed for 2024, we have to be conscious of what went before in 2023. I will finish my point so we are clear. We are facing a deficit of €1.5 billion, the majority of which is coming from costs outside the control of Mr. Gloster and Mr. Watt, including those resulting from inflation and increased demand.

Even if Mr. Gloster achieves all of the savings - he pointed out that he wants to achieve savings and that some cost controls have been put in place - we are still running a deficit of around €1.5 billion. That is the position.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is the position for closing 2023 but what we carry into 2024 will depend-----

Exactly, but Mr. Gloster needs a revised Estimate to carry into 2024 and we do not know how much of that he will get. The hope would be that he will get all of that but that will only be for 2023. Then what is important is what goes into the base for the following year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is correct.

What I asked both Mr. Watt and Mr. Gloster the last time they were here was how much of the €1.5 billion deficit for this year would be recurring. How much of that-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The majority of it.

The majority of it, and yet the health service was not funded any of that. It got around €400 million of one-off funding as part of the €1 billion figure to which the Secretary General referred, which also includes Covid expenditure, Ukrainian funding, money for waiting lists and so on. I think a figure of €480 million was earmarked in the budget under the resilience fund but that is only one-off funding. In terms of core, permanent expenditure, in the context of the €1.5 billion that will be recurring next year, how much permanent funding did the health service get?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am waiting for the final letter of determination but it is in the territory of €700 million-----

That is for the ELS, which is separate again.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

-----for the ELS.

Yes, but that is separate again.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, but of the 2023 carry-forward, I do not get any of that in the budget. I only get it in the red.

Exactly. That is my point. Unless that was put into the base for next year, we will have the same problem again next year, with a deficit running again in 2024. That is the difficulty. If I then come to ELS, I want to be clear about what that means. Existing levels of service means to simply stand still, to provide for demographic pressures, inflation, pay and all of those issues. What was the figure that the Department had sought for ELS for 2024, as opposed to the €708 million the HSE got?

Mr. Robert Watt

The figures are broadly similar to the figures that we mentioned at the last committee meeting.

I know that but for the purposes of clarity, the HSE got €708 million. Mr. Watt said €808 million but €100 million was for new measures.

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes.

The health service got €708 million but how much did the Department seek for 2024, just to stand still?

Mr. Robert Watt

We sought circa €2 billion.

The Department got €700 million.

Mr. Robert Watt

There was also the once-off funding, which the Deputy mentioned.

Yes, but once-off does not cut it. I am talking about permanent funding. The Department sought €2 billion and it got €700 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, they are the figures.

Okay, so there is a shortfall of €1.3 billion.

Mr. Robert Watt

There is, as I mentioned, the once-off funding and while obviously it cannot deal with costs beyond 2024, unless that is provided in subsequent years, it does help to meet some of the costs that will arise next year in terms of the overall costs.

Yes, but with respect, Mr. Watt, I do not have a lot of time and I just want to be accurate and clear. The Department sought a minimum of €2 billion, it got €700 million so there is a shortfall of €1.3 billion. That is in the base, in core expenditure.

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, excluding once-offs, exactly.

There is a shortfall of €1.3 billion. That means that Mr. Gloster has to write a service plan for next year that guarantees a deficit for 2024. Would that be fair to say?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, I have said on the public record that based on the cost base I have today, if I am to provide the services which I have said I am not cutting and if I am not to hurt people, then there is a guaranteed deficit. I am not aspiring to the highest level; I will work to the lowest level with efficiencies but there is a deficit, yes.

Would it be unusual for the HSE to be writing a service plan that builds in and guarantees a deficit?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, it would be.

It would be unusual. I would say that it is highly unusual and unprecedented. I want to deal with the consequences of this. We are hearing that this will not impact patients on the front line but I disagree with that because no additional funding has been provided for new services or for all of the clinical programmes and national strategies. Mr. Gloster mentioned in his opening statement that there is no new funding. I am concerned about cancer care and cardiac care but let us take the example of the stroke strategy. How much additional funding has been made available in budget 2024 for the national stroke strategy? I am referring to additional funding.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will let Dr. Henry respond on the programmes more generally. I just want to check on the stroke piece. I do not have an allocation list-----

Mr. Gloster said there is no new funding so-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is no new funding but there are some pre-existing commitments around buildings-----

With respect, pre-existing does not cut it. I am talking about core additional expenditure in budget 2024 for any of these programmes. How much core additional expenditure has been provided in budget 2024 for the national stroke strategy, as an example? What is the round figure?

Dr. Colm Henry

At this point there is no certain figure with the national stroke strategy.

Dr. Colm Henry

We are focusing, I am afraid, on what we initiated in 2023-----

I understand that. I am asking for a figure. Is it less than €1?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We do not have a figure.

It is zero, essentially.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We do not have a figure for the stroke strategy.

The HSE does not have a figure because the money was not given.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Exactly, so if the question can be answered, how much additional funding has been given for the national stroke strategy? The likely answer is zero for 2024, with respect to additional core expenditure. Is that correct?

Dr. Colm Henry

That is true. Our national programmes do not have additional funding for 2024 at this point in time.

I would imagine that is the same across a lot of programmes, so budget 2024 will have an impact on the delivery of services and improving all those clinical programmes and national strategies.

I wish to ask Mr. Watt about these 1,500 rapid-build beds we had a lengthy discussion on with the Minister. I raised it with Mr. Gloster and Mr. Watt a number of times. Additional capital might come from the windfall allocation from capital, but we were led to believe this would be very rapid and we would have 700 of those in 2024. How many of those 1,500 beds the Minister announced a number of times does Mr. Watt see opening in 2024?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have a number for 2024 yet. We are going through the planning of those. We have identified sites, we are looking at the design and we are out there doing the procurement. We can come back to the Deputy with a number. It will depend on the pace at which we can go through the procurement and on the allocations. We have not got the final allocations yet.

Does Mr. Watt see any of those beds being delivered?

Mr. Robert Watt

I hope there will be additional beds next year.

Mr. Robert Watt

We will come back to the Deputy on it. I am not exactly sure of the extent to which we will be able to deliver on them next year.

Hope will not cut it, because the Minister was emphatic when he was here. To finish in the few seconds I have left, even the embargo and the fact there is a recruitment embargo on some front-line positions, though not all, sends out a very poor message at a time when we are trying to recruit into the health service. When those who work on the front-line, but especially those who are in training colleges, hear "recruitment embargo" it is not the message we have sent out with budget 2024. Putting that embargo in place was a very bad decision.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have to respond and say while I share the disappointment of the Deputy, the reality is - and I have listened to the narrative since coming into the job that the health service is out of control, the health service cannot manage its business - if I am funded for ten jobs no matter how desirable it is, I cannot hire 20.

I am not putting the blame on Mr. Gloster. I have put the blame firmly on the decision to underfund the health service for budget 2024.

I thank Deputy Cullinane. Deputy Shortall is next.

I wish everyone a good morning.

I will begin by clarifying a couple of things that have been said since the budget allocation. On the recruitment pause, will Mr. Gloster clarify the implications of the budget and what the HSE is doing this year with respect to the non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, and home helps?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The NCHDs are in a grade code where we had budgeted to recruit an additional net 500 this year and so far we are on 700.

I am sorry. How many additional?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

An additional net 500 and so far we are at about 700, or maybe slightly more than that. The home help grade is in with healthcare assistant grades, which is in the patient and client care grade. There was about 150 headroom left in that at the day of the pause, so they were excluded. About 95 for the National Ambulance Service and about 50 between healthcare assistants and home helps. That is all that was left in the cap that is on that. In the approach to 2024, I have a different approach proposal to put to the Department for home helps because there is a better way to do it than simply counting it as WTEs - we have money for hours and we can maximise the hours regardless of the number of people we need to do it.

Okay, so with home helps, is Mr. Gloster talking about directly employing them?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, of course.

What are the implications then for the private sector?

Mr. Robert Watt

We fund the private sector to do whatever hours it can for us that are available in the area they are contracted for up to the target of the funded hours, so there is no implication for them.

All right, but there will not be any additional funding. There was a cut, effectively, in funding this year with the introduction of the living wage, or the supposed living wage.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The funding for this year is the funding for the hours we have.

We were probably going to fall short of the targeted hours this year because at the time the contract got resolved, we were not going to get the full year's value of the hours, but at minimum next year the same targeted hours will be in the service plan and we will pursue those through private and direct.

We have, therefore, lost 1.9 million hours this year as a result of the pay agreement. There are also 600,000 people on waiting lists.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not think it is 600,000. I apologise; the Deputy meant on waiting lists generally. I thought she was talking about home help waiting lists. My apologies.

We are going to fall very far short of demand this year and Mr. Gloster is saying it will be the same next year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are falling short of demand this year not because we are capping it or cutting it. I read some article the other day that we were cutting home help hours but we are not cutting them. We are trying to fulfil as much of the target as we can.

However, there will not be any additional.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Not that I am aware of, pending the letter of determination.

We have a growing population and growing demand and there will not be additional resources.

My next question may be for Mr. Watt. In the Minister's briefing after the budget, he spoke about the €108 million allocated for new developments, including 162 beds. Where are those beds?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have the details in front of me but I assume it is the beds that are in prospect next year. There will be some additional beds next year that are planned to be open. The new devs relate, I assume, to the staffing requirement for those new beds. I think that is what the Minister was referring to. The new devs include the funding-----

How many new beds will we get next year?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think 160 is the number.

The figure used is 162.

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes.

Is Mr. Watt saying those 162 beds are funded for next year?

Mr. Robert Watt

I understand those beds are funded for next year and the Minister has committed to the staffing complement required for those.

From €108 million?

Mr. Robert Watt

Within the new dev money for next year, yes.

Will Mr. Watt give us a note on that, just on the location and the staff complement?

Ms Louise McGirr

Once it is issued to the HSE through the LOD process, we can share that, yes.

That is fine.

Returning to Mr. Watt, the problem started this year, if not before that. He knew from the end of last year that there was not going to be sufficient money to meet the service plan. We know what happened early in the year, which is there was a three-month delay in agreeing the service plan. We know a senior person on the board of the HSE identified what he referred to as a €2 billion black hole. We know there were a lot of angry exchanges between Mr. Watt and the acting CEO of the HSE, who was pointing out very clearly that the money just was not there to fund the service plan. In hindsight, does Mr. Watt accept it would have been better if he had been upfront about that in the early part of the year and not tried to hide that deficit?

Mr. Robert Watt

We did not try to hide the deficit. There was a discussion about the financial risk based on the allocation. There was a fairly significant allocation in the budget for this year and there was a financial risk identified, as the Deputy said, by the acting CEO. It is the job of the acting CEO of HSE, as it is of the current CEO, to endeavour to stay within their budget; that is their job. There was a discussion about the extent of the financial risk and there were different views about that, which is fine. We are allowed to have different views. As the year progressed, as the CEO alluded to, things became worse. The demand on the system was greater and the inflation environment impacted on us much more than we anticipated. Whatever view there was at the end of they year about the risk and the pressures, we have just got much greater demands than we expected, as the CEO alluded to, and prices have gone up more than was predicted at the time, so there are these different factors. The debate is a debate in the same way Mr. Gloster and I have debates about this in that we have to endeavour to stay within the allocation set by the Government. We do not control that.

However, we have this conflict where there is a very high demand for services. Much of that is historical because of the underfunding, historically, of the health service and then there were the additional pressures from Covid. There is the growing population and the ageing population. We heard from Mr. Gloster that 70,000 additional procedures were carried out.

Mr. Robert Watt

In total, in terms of the services being provided in the year to date, there are approximately 180,000 additional activities, outpatient, day cases, and so on.

Does Mr. Watt thinks it is a good thing or a bad thing that additional services are provided?

Mr. Robert Watt

I am sorry, but I am not sure I understand the question.

It is a good thing that additional procedures - day case and inpatient procedures - are carried out?

Is it good that there is greater productivity and activity within the health service?

Mr. Robert Watt

Of course it is a good thing. There are people who have needs, and in the absence of us not increasing activity, a lot of people will be on waiting lists. It depends on the nature of the treatment.

Is that not how we reduce the waiting lists, by having greater activity?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we reduce the waiting lists with more activity, more resources, better ways of treating people and all the different elements that we are working on.

Should we be encouraging greater activity within the HSE?

Mr. Robert Watt

We need to fund the HSE to deliver more activity and also change the way we work in order to increase the activity and output in the system.

Sure. Does Mr. Watt accept that both of those things are going on?

Mr. Robert Watt

They are absolutely going on.

There is a major reform programme under way at the moment. Does Mr. Watt accept that reform costs money?

Mr. Robert Watt

Absolutely, depending on the nature of the reform. The pathways that I alluded to require money upfront to change the nature of the system. The digitalisation of systems and delivering better links within community and acute care require money and may require more staff. In the main,-----

That cannot be done overnight. We are repairing an aircraft in flight, as it were.

Mr. Robert Watt

We are developing a programme. The way we normally go about it is to take a programmatic approach.

Was that recognised by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in terms of the funding of the health service?

Mr. Robert Watt

Absolutely. Of course, the Department has recognised the needs of the healthcare system. That is why the Government, over the last number of years, has increased the overall spending on the new system by 80%, as I mentioned. Of course people recognise that.

In terms of some of the attitudes about overspending and the argument that spending is out of control and all that sort of stuff, what is the position on funding a fully integrated financial management system? What is the position on multiannual funding and what is the position on a digital health strategy? They are all things which would improve the data systems and efficiency. Why have they not been funded?

Mr. Robert Watt

We do have funding for the integrated financial management system. It has been implemented now.

When will it be completed?

Deputy, let the answer come.

Mr. Robert Watt

I think the system will be fully operational over the period 2024-25. That was the information provided by Mr.Gloster the last time, if I remember correctly.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is funding indicated for 2024 to expedite it.

Mr. Robert Watt

On digitalisation, there is a significant programme of digitalisation taking place, including in remote working, virtual wards, the development of electronic records and the integration of the system. That is happening. We would like to do it at pace. It is a function of investment and also of getting the right people in. That is a constraint within the market.

Maybe we should have started six years ago. Would Mr. Watt accept that?

Mr. Robert Watt

There is ongoing digitalisation. There are projects happening all the time. Significant projects are taking place and it is an ongoing process. We absolutely need to do more of it. The results from some of the projects are very impressive. We need to do more of that with the resources that are available. That is the CEO's intention.

The next speaker is Senator Kyne.

I welcome Mr. Gloster, Mr. Watt and the teams to the meeting. I want to start with the briefing that was published on budget day. According to the little booklet, €1.3 billion has been allocated to respond to Covid-19. How much of that is part of the Department's funding health and is it included in the €22 billion budget? I know that money is being spent on vaccines. What exactly are we spending that funding on?

Ms Louise McGirr

The amount to which the Senator referred is just over €1 billion, or €1.032 billion. That is non-core funding. I will get the exact figures now, but some of that - around €200 million or €250 million - is for the Covid vaccination programme and test and trace. A significant amount of the funding is being used to deal with what we call the legacy of Covid, including the waiting list action plan and investment in a range of waiting list actions, because there is pent-up demand and a build-up of delayed assessment etc. from Covid. It is non-core funding and it is the second year we have received it. We have the additional temporary funding to deal with the waiting lists and urgent emergency care requirements over winter, in particular. We are seeing a really big increase in demand. Just over €400 million of it is for the resilience fund, which will help offset some of the increasing expenditure demands in our acute sector. It will also be used to increase our investment in areas, including the integrated financial management and procurement system, IFMS, and other digital initiatives, to try to build up resilience.

It covers a range of areas. It also includes Ukraine but most of that €1.3 billion has gone to health.

That is fine. It is not for Covid per se but, rather, the legacy of Covid and catch-up.

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes, it is a legacy of Covid, which will be a number of years. That is recognised.

Perfect. All hospitals do important work but some are better than others, as Mr. Gloster would attest to. Waterford hospital has been mentioned in that regard. Is there a matrix, if you like, between the number of patients seen and the cost of running the hospital? Can hospital budgets and outputs be measured in order that they can be ranked?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I think we could be better at it. We have a lot of data that come out of hospitals from the hospital in-patient enquiry, HIPE, coding system of their activities, from their emergency department numbers and from their outpatients on the waiting list action plan. We need to get a more mature level of performance assurance, which I hope to do through the six regions. It is a matter of how we integrate all that data and what they tell us. We could do better in that regard. At the moment, it is very variable. I am sure the Senator knows that. As I said just before the Senator came in, Letterkenny hospital was the story last week. It was Limerick hospital yesterday, it will be Galway another day and so on. It is variable. Limerick hospital is on the news for trolleys all the time but it is one of the significant performers when it comes to managing outpatient waiting lists, for example. The picture is variable and we could do better.

Mr. Watt, in his opening statement, stated “Focusing on the past three years, we have added an additional 22,000 healthcare staff...” He mentioned 6,700 nurses, 3,100 social care professionals and 2,500 doctors and dentists. There were 9,700 other staff. What is the breakdown of those? There is security and cleaning staff, for example. Do we have a breakdown of those?

Mr. Robert Watt

We could get a breakdown for the Senator. It would be the other groups he mentioned. Perhaps Ms Hoey has more details. There would be administrative-management grade staff, support staff and auxiliary staff as well. We can provide that breakdown to the Senator. We do not have it to hand but we can send it to him.

Referring to his opening statement again, Mr. Watt stated about 42% of the expenditure is on pay, so that is about €9.45 billion. Some €3.2 billion will be spent on pharma by the end of the year. Those figures account for about €12 billion of the €22 billion. Is there a breakdown of the remainder, for example, for pensions, perhaps under large heads?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we have a breakdown. It is mental health services, older persons services and the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, which is a large part of the drugs costs that were mentioned. Perhaps Mr. Colman can give the headings. It would probably be best to send the information to the Senator rather than reading it out. It is all the other elements that go into health - community services and so on.

Mr. Kevin Colman

Aside from the HSE expenditure, pensions amount to about €700 million for next year. State claims would account for a big chunk, at about €440 million. There are grants to other bodies and agencies outside of the HSE, and the Department spend is about another €400 million there as well. The PCRS amounts to €4 billion, including local demand-led schemes. Those are the big areas.

Mr. Robert Watt

We can provide the Senator with the breakdown. Regarding the challenges of the expenditure overrun this year, it is overwhelmingly within the acute system. There are some in relation to pensions and the PCRS but it is overwhelmingly in the acute system.

It has been said, and the witnesses can dispute this or not, that part of the problem is that if the HSE gets an allocation for 200 particular posts and cannot fill those posts, it still spends the money on other staff. Is that the case? Does that happen or does the HSE go back to the Department for approval?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To put that in fairly simple terms, there was a period of time when we were challenged to recruit the numbers we were funded to recruit. There are two choices in that situation. One ends up with what are called “time-related savings”, that is, one has the money while the post is not filled. Usually, there is an agreement with the Department to spend that in a particular priority area to try to respond to some of the need. Sometimes it is then very hard to retract that back in when there are better times for recruitment.

This year was very different. This year our recruitment outcomes flipped completely. We have had very successful recruitment strategies, thanks to the work of Ms Hoey's team. We are recruiting at a far faster rate than we experienced in other years. The retention profiles are changing and-----

What does that mean in and of itself?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

When there are lots of developments going to post-----

Does that mean retention is getting better?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, it is improving. We still have a way to go but the simple reality is that when we have a whole load of developments working together, we will get more staff in some grades than in others and that takes up the overall profile at the end of the year. That is the simple reality. It is not a question of us having funding for an occupational therapist but going back to the Secretary General and asking if we can switch that funding to a physiotherapist. We could not manage 150,000 jobs like that.

Yes, I understand not getting down to that level of specifics but if the service has funding for 500 nurses and can only get 300, surely that money can be used for other staffing costs. I am trying to understand whether approval is sought or given in those circumstances or is it all kept within the HSE?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

We produce a pay and numbers strategy each year as part of the service planning process and that strategy does allow for flexibility within certain staff categories. As Mr. Gloster said, we cannot get into the detail of a change in one post, for example, but there is flexibility within the pay and numbers strategy for certain clinical grades within the overall scheme of our needs and of affordability.

Is that something Mr. Watt agrees with?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes.

Ms Louise McGirr

I can respond to that. We agree the pay and numbers strategy or the broad parameters of same. We are really concerned about a couple of things, the first of which is affordability. Does the budget that the HSE has for pay equal what is in its pay and numbers strategy? Is there clear prioritisation around the grade groupings, as we call them, which are medical, dental, nursing and midwifery and so on, those big groups of staff? What do they look like in comparison with each other? As Ms Hoey said, there is flexibility within that in terms of re-prioritisation of medical and clinical posts or nursing and midwifery posts. Broadly, we are concerned to ensure that the HSE has a recruitment plan and that it sticks to it throughout the year. What has happened in the case of management and administration staff is that the affordability limit has been exceeded and so measures have had to be taken.

Is there an actual strategy? Is there a physical document? The witnesses have used the term "pay and numbers strategy". Can we get a copy of that? Is it available?

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, we have a strategy for this year. The point I made in my opening statement is that going into next year, one of the things I have agreed with the Secretary General is that we have parsed up the employment too much. There are too many different ways to look at it. There are new developments, existing posts, replacement posts, agency, overtime and so on. We now have to give service units a total pay budget, a total numbers budget and policy guidance as to the distribution of those across areas like nursing, allied health professionals and so on. There will be a rule set and then areas can get on with that. One of the intentions of the six-regions system is that areas can get on with it and respond to local need. If, ultimately, the manager in the west of Ireland decides a physiotherapist is more appropriate to the needs of the population than an occupational therapist, I am not going to argue with him or her.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. My first question is for Mr. Watt and relates to his opening statement. He spoke about the increase in the budget over the last seven years from €4.6 billion to €8.1 billion. If one takes inflation into account, however, while there is an increase in real terms in the number of staff and so on, the same percentage increase has not occurred in relation to service to patients. Have the reasons for that been identified? Mr. Watt spoke about infrastructure and I fully accept that but are there other reasons as well? Have they been identified and are they going to be dealt with?

Mr. Robert Watt

What I tried to do was to set out, in the context of the debate about what we are getting for the taxpayers' significant investment in the health service, the increases for the acute side. I tried to account for the price increases, look at the real increase and then try to relate that to various measures.

We have various measures of day case, inpatient, outpatient and so on and then the emergency departments - the number of people we treat - but that does not take account of the quality or level of treatment or the severity of the patients who are coming in. One thing we are aware from colleagues is the frailty of people coming to the system is greater and their needs are more complex, so there are more needs and this was necessarily reflected in the basic matrix we produce on hospital activity. Not only did we have more complicated cases but the outcomes are better. I gave the example of cancer services. Even allowing for that, there is a challenge in terms of how we drive productivity.

If you have inefficiencies arising in the system, and the amount has gone from €4.4 billion to €8.1 billion, surely there is a need to tackle that. Some of the examples I am getting from hospitals include consultants not turning up to clinics and clinics being run by registrars or senior registrars. I was given an example by a nurse who moved to the UK. When she worked in Ireland, six senior nurses were attached to a unit of 20 with 14 junior nurses. One day, you might have two senior nurses and 18 junior nurses and the next, you might have six senior nurses on and the ratio would not be the same whereas in the UK, regardless what day of the week this nurse works, there is the same ratio of senior and junior nurses and grades of nurses. Is this creating inefficiencies as well? There seems to be no overall plan in this area.

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not know the individual details. Clearly, rostering is very important when it comes to how resources are allocated to ensure there is the proper mix and composition of staff.

This is a case where the ratio was not the same and it depended on which day of the week it was, for example, whether it was the weekend, whereas in the UK, there is a set ratio of senior and junior people. How does the Department now deal with that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will take that question. With regard to nursing, the best approach, for which Ireland has been well recognised, is the safe staffing framework because that equates the level of nursing to the burden of the particular ward-----

The point has been made to me that it was not safe because if you have only two senior nurses with 18 junior nurses-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Sure.

-----it is not safe.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not going to dispute that.

This is the argument that was put to me and is one of the reasons this person left and went to the UK.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not going to say that this does not happen. What I am saying is that last May, the Minister confirmed the completion of the safe staffing framework in the medical surgical wards and the emergency departments, which was about 800 posts between nursing and healthcare assistants, half to be achieved through employment and half to be achieved through agency conversion. In the profile I have of the approved additional jobs for next year, the completion of that framework through the conversion is included in that. Giving the safe staffing level first and then the appropriate deployment of that constitute the two answers to the point made by the Deputy.

Mr. Gloster accepts that we have had an increase in population of 40% in the past 23 years. Therefore, there is greater demand on services. The last thing we need is inefficiency in the system, even when we have put more money into it. Does Mr. Gloster agree that more work needs to be done on it? For example, are there checks and balances regarding who is turning up to clinics to see if an adequate number of senior people are there? You cannot leave it to nurses to do clinics when they are relying on doctors. Are checks and balances in place?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Perhaps Dr. Henry can talk to the clinical checks and balances. This year, we finalised the health performance visualisation platform system, which allows us to see the activity within specialties and outpatient departments by hospital group. This tells us something about the activity.

Dr. Colm Henry

A traditional outpatient clinic of course means senior decision-makers but I do not accept this as a model for the way patients need to be seen. We are broadening it out. For example, there are 14 rapid ambulatory gynaecology clinics where advanced nurse practitioners who are trained in that specialty see and complete loops of treatment. I saw one in Letterkenny recently where 750 patients were seen in one year by two nurses. There were only 21 returns. They completed a loop of treatment within a common governance. The Deputy's point about outpatient clinics is correct. There needs to be senior decision-makers but I would go further than that and say we cannot endlessly rely on a model of care that is unsustainable.

I know that. The point I am making is that it is clearly set out in their contract that they have to do so many clinics. I am saying that the information coming back to me suggests that certain people are not complying with the terms of their contracts. That is what I am saying.

Dr. Colm Henry

That is a clear performance issue that needs to be addressed.

There are mechanisms within the hospital system.

Dr. Colm Henry

There are mechanisms.

Are they being followed through on?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If there is a particular instance, I am happy to look at it. We have a clinical directorate system that includes agreed roster hours and the deployment of the consultant contract. There is a clinical director in each of the directorates within the groups, including medicine, surgery and so on. I am surprised that is what the Deputy is hearing. There is certainly an adequate structure in place to ensure it happens.

I will move on to the issue of home care. I recently saw figures around home care providers. Some 42% of home care providers are over 60 years of age. Does that not pose a challenge into the future? How are we planning to deal with that? There are now more than 800,000 people over the age of 66. That population will be more than 1 million within the next six years. There is going to be greater demand for home care. I know we have planned for the next 12 months but do we have a plan for the next three or four years on the issue of how we get more people into providing home care?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We only came into a better place in that regard this year with the revised rates we are paying providers, given our 60% dependency on them. With that rate, we should see an improvement in their capacity to recruit and retain. We hope that works and on the basis it does, we should be able to plan ahead in the medium term. I do not think that is true of the long term but it is true of the medium term.

It is a challenge when we think that 42% of the current home care providers are over 60 years of age.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is, but that has been the case traditionally. That is the age profile of home help and home care providers. In the modern era, I would not be too worried about a workforce aged between 55 and 60 years. I take the Deputy's overall point about the overall dependency. I am certainly happy to take that point in the round. Our target for this year, and the Government, in fairness, was receptive when we asked, was to improve substantially the rate available. That was a major issue in attracting and retaining. We have done that. Let us now see what numbers of staff we can recruit and retain directly and through the providers.

We can employ all the consultants we like but at the end of the day, there will be an issue with having facilities available for them to deliver a service. If consultants do not have access to theatres, they cannot do many procedures. Where are we now on the whole issue of elective hospitals? I know we are at the design stage. When will we have designs available for the elective hospitals in Galway, Cork and Dublin? Where are we in that regard?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are in the procurement phase for design teams.

My understanding was that design teams had already been appointed.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are in procurement. There were preliminary design appointments but the procurement process for appointing the full design teams to take those hospitals to completion is-----

When will they be appointed? When will designs for the hospitals be available?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We will have design teams within a matter of weeks.

We have to stick to the time limits. We will come back to the Deputy again in the second round of questioning. We have all the time in the world. I call Deputy Lahart.

I thank Mr. Gloster and Mr. Watt. I have a couple of preliminary questions. What is a letter of determination?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

A letter of determination is a provision under the Act. Within a certain period of the budget, the Minister issues a determination to the HSE of the parameters of the budget available for 2024 and the policy requirements of the Government of the day in the context of how it is spent. We turn that into a service plan for submission and consideration by the Minister.

It is a formal statutory requirement that tells one exactly how much one has, as opposed to how much one thinks one has.

How much does Mr. Gloster think he has?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

At the moment I have the budget for 2023. The position going into next year, as I said, is dependent on several factors. There is the €700 million for ELS and there is the €100 million for pre-existing commitments or new developments. There will also be whatever the Supplementary and Revised Estimate in respect of 2023 does to 2024. Those four variables together will make up what I will have.

If I was a member of the public, I would be asking where my concerns should lie in terms of service provision.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

From my perspective - and I take the points and observations made earlier by Deputies Shortall and Cullinane and by other members - additional or increased demand is a feature of what we are dealing with demographically, in relation to pent-up demand post-Covid, and so on. That overtook us in 2023 in a way that we did not envisage but, equally, our own internal efficiencies have proved in the latter months of 2023 that we got a higher outturn from our service than we expected. There are challenges and good on both sides of that. What I said last Sunday week remains the case. The impact of us not achieving what we wanted to achieve for 2024 is under two headings. First, there is no doubt there will be an element of deficit in the accounts for next year because the only alternative to that would be to cut services. To be fair, I have not been asked to do that. That is the first point, so how we deal with the challenge next year becomes the issue. The second impact for next year is that there will be a slower pace of development of different strategies than there has been for the last two or three years. We will consolidate what we have and do the best we can with them. There is lots of work we can do. It is not all doom and gloom but we will not grow all of our development strategies as fast as we would have liked. That is essentially the impact.

I admire Mr. Gloster for standing by his statements of last Sunday week. It is ballsy, if the Chair will forgive my language. Others might have resiled from them.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I can see tomorrow's headline.

It might take a bit of pressure off him.

The Secretary General talked about the affordability piece and one of the things that might lead to another headline is access to State-funded GP care. I know that is Government policy but I also know that on the ground GPs have issues with it in terms of clogging up surgeries. There is a shortage of GPs and kids with runny noses are continuously presenting and clogging up GP waiting rooms while kids and adults with real needs are being denied access to a GP. It is modelled on the NHS but I despair, notwithstanding present company-----

It is modelled on every other European country, for clarity.

That is fine but I look at the NHS and despair. In my personal view, we must look at universal payments because universal availability creates issues in the system. People who need care do not get in when they need it. GPs also have some very strong views on the invidious position it places parents in vis-à-vis their children and their children's illnesses.

The Secretary General has made some interesting points about accepting improvements in outcomes. He referred to a substantial divergence between resourcing and activity. I invite him to say more about the productivity puzzle. He spoke about analytics and data and the increasing emphasis on same. I ask him to elaborate further on the productivity puzzle.

Mr. Robert Watt

The key challenge for us, ultimately, is to ensure the resources that have been allocated by this House and provided by the taxpayer are translated into services for citizens. We have to be absolutely confident that services are structured in a way that maximises output and value for money.

There is a disconnect between the resourcing at a high level and then some of the high-level matrixes being produced in the hospital system. I do caveat that by saying that other factors need to be taken into account here in terms of the outcomes, the nature of the treatment and the complexity of the treatment. It is a fair challenge, though, in terms of what should we be getting for the type of resourcing? The activity in the system is enormous. Services are expanding all of the time and they are improving all of the time, and the types of services, and new services being added. There are differences by hospital and the CEO alluded to that in terms of the data we have. Why is that? Is it a function of leadership culture? Yes. Is it a function of physical infrastructure or previous investment in pathways or previous investment in digital? Is it the individuals involved and the way they organise their work? We have data and Mr. Gloster mentioned the HPVF-----

Ms Louise McGirr

The health performance visualisation platform, HPVP.

Mr. Robert Watt

HPVP. I thank Ms McGirr. I always get the acronym incorrect. This looks again at trying to compare the output data by consultants to try to give a picture. We are trying to use that information to drive performance.

Will Mr. Watt give us a concrete example?

Mr. Robert Watt

Dr. Henry would be better able to but before I ask him to come in, if we look at orthopaedics, which is something more straightforward - and I know some people disagree with that classification-----

Mr. Gloster wants to come in as well.

Mr. Robert Watt

Looking at orthopaedics, hips or knees per consultant and per hospital and what those numbers look like, can those who are in the bottom quartile do as much as the best performers and what impact would that have on productivity?

Is Mr. Watt saying that the outputs in some hospitals are lower than the outputs in other hospitals, notwithstanding some different challenges they may face?

Mr. Robert Watt

We need to be careful about making comparisons because they vary. There are factors there but-----

Dr. Colm Henry

I thank the Deputy. There has been a huge shift to the left in the past years in response. The most expensive commodities and scarce commodities in healthcare are inpatient beds, and theatre. Looking at the surgical models of care, we have seen a huge shift in the past ten years that has accelerated recently from inpatient admission, to day of case surgery, to day case and, in some cases, this involves moving those cases from theatres to outpatients. For example, one of the modernised care pathways we are reporting now is a one-stop shop for haematuria. Previously that would have involved multiple visits with cystoscopy, scheduling and revisits and so on. We are working with the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, and other partners on this who have designed and are implementing models of care that are shifting away from expensive inpatient protracted unnecessary stays to day of surgery admission, through to day case, to outpatients and out into the community. In some cases, for example the Ballincollig eye care centre. which we visited recently, we see a shift of macular cases away from what used to be in day theatres in the South Infirmary Victoria University Hospital Cork, to these patients being dealt with in the community. There has been a response from the clinical community even before we look at what has happened at policy level in response to an increasingly congested and valuable space, that is, acute hospital beds and theatres, to devise models of care and standards that could be applied to different procedures, different conditions, that move away from inpatient consumption of beds out to the outpatients.

Does Mr. Gloster wish to comment?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, I am okay with that.

I have a final question. Mr. Watt's opening statement mentioned biolsimilar medicines and the transfer. Is there any possibility of moving towards switching to biosimilar medicines in a more general way to ensure savings?

Mr. Robert Watt

That is something we are working on a plan with the HSE now in terms of how we can accelerate that uptake. If the same drug provides the same care and the same effects for patients and if they are cheaper, we need to move to them. We can maybe come back another day and maybe Dr. Henry can add to it. Certainly that is what we need to do because we cannot afford all the demands and we need to move to more efficient ways in every case, and the drugs budget is an example of that.

Dr. Colm Henry

We have moved to a lot these recently and we have substituted expensive biolsimilar, expensive medications. We have moved towards a biosimilar use of 80% now, and that is a saving of €80 million. Based on the European Medicines Agency, EMA's, recommendations, we can make that 100%. There are a lot of savings to be made in this area and we are working with clinicians to convert from expensive medications to equally effective and safe biosimilar medications.

There are a couple of people who still want to come in. Ms Hoey wants to come in and I think Mr. Gloster wants to come in. We have gone through all the people we have here and have finished the first round. We will have a welcome break for ten minutes. If no one is here in ten minutes, or certainly in 15 minutes, the show could be over.

Which is it Leas-Chathaoirleach? Ten or 15 minutes?

It will be ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.35 a.m. and resumed at 11.50 a.m.

We will go through the list again. In fairness, we want to go with the people who were here all morning and we will then move on to anybody else from the committee who may want to come in. I will first call Deputy Cullinane, who has to go elsewhere. Is that okay? This goes back to Roman times. Even Caesar had to go elsewhere.

The Dáil taught me well, that is all I will say. I have learned a lot.

I want to come back to the issue of additional beds for next year. When I was putting questions to Mr. Watt earlier, it was in the context of these 1,500 rapid-build beds that the Minister had more or less announced a number of times. We had a very lengthy discussion here in this committee room and he said that about 700 of those could come on stream in 2024. In responding to questions from Deputy Shortall, Mr. Watt mentioned a figure of 162 or 164 for next year but I imagine that those beds are part of the previously funded beds and not these 1,500 rapid-build beds. To go back to the question I had asked, of the 1,500 rapid-build beds that were promised, how many is it anticipated will actually be built in 2024 and is the funding currently there for those beds?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have an update for the Deputy. We are going through the procurement process and we do not have an updated assessment of when they will be delivered. There is then a question of the funding and we are still awaiting the final capital allocations. I understand the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform did a further analysis and there might be some additional capital.

In the real world, and we all live in the real world, how likely is it that 700 of those beds will be delivered and opened in 2024?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have an update at this stage so I would not want to speculate.

People can read into that answer what they wish. The Minister made a big announcement in regard to these beds and it is quite obvious, certainly in the budget allocation, that they are not funded. There may well be more funding coming, as Mr. Gloster said, but at the moment, there is no funding for those beds. I would be amazed if any of those beds were delivered in 2024, which would be a disappointment.

I want to come back to something Mr. Watt said in his opening statement, and I tend to agree with him on this. It is that we need to focus not just on what is happening in acute hospitals, but also in primary and community care. That was the whole bedrock of Sláintecare in many ways: the right care in the right place at the right time. If we had more alternative care pathways in community and primary care, we would take considerable pressure off our acute hospitals. I agree with the philosophical point that Mr. Watt was making in his opening statement. I agree also that significant additional funding was made available in previous budgets to put in place that whole enhanced community care layer of staff which is necessary. However, we have to look forward as well. If we want to deliver on the commitment Mr. Watt was talking about in terms of giving people alternative care options, we have to build on that capacity all of the time. In budget 2024, how much additional core expenditure was made available for primary and community care in terms of new programmes?

Mr. Robert Watt

There is the full-year cost. The teams are still being built up but there is no new additional funding on top of the 2024 cost of the teams, which are still being developed because all of those teams are not fully populated. When we get the teams up, we should be able to see more activity in 2024, even though there is no additional funding.

I accept that. This is where I want to be 100% factual. I have no problem with the carryover of investment from last year and with that being put in place this year.

I acknowledged investment was made in previous years in primary and community care but in budget 2024, in terms of new measures and new funding for community care, the answer again is zero. Is that correct?

Mr. Robert Watt

That is correct.

How then is the change being talked about meant to be delivered if there is no new funding in budgets, given time is lost very quickly? We have agreed as an Oireachtas that the basis of Sláintecare is to reorient care into primary and community care. I hope the regional health areas will be established quickly. That is one of their logics as well. If additional core funding is not being provided in community care, how will the objective Mr. Watt set out in his opening statement of giving people alternative care pathways be achieved?

Mr. Robert Watt

We will see the full effects of the community care programme in 2024. Clearly, we are not able to invest in new developments next year to the extent we all would have liked to but we will have to consolidate it and then grow through the changes. Some additional money might be made available - Mr. Coleman might comment on that - but the Deputy is right. The shift to the left, which Mr. Gloster mentioned earlier, needs to continue and is happening but it will require investment, more people, investment in systems and we need to-----

When Mr. Watt says shift to the left, does he mean politically?

Mr. Robert Watt

I could not possibly comment on that. I mean in terms of healthcare. It is happening but the Deputy is right. Our capacity to do more of it is limited by the availability of resources. Does Mr. Gloster wish to comment?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

A lot of the more than 2,200 ECC staff who have been put in place are just bedding in this year. To give one example of what consolidation means, in the past four weeks we started a process where the integrated care for older people team will assess every person going from an acute hospital to a nursing home. They will do a comprehensive geriatric assessment to inform their care in the nursing home. They will then be supported by the ECC staff and primary staff in the community to achieve that plan with the hope of reducing the incidence of readmission to hospital. That is the type of improvement we can do with the people we have. However, the simple truth is we will not grow the ECC programme on top of that. That is what I mean by-----

We do not need the message to go out to citizens, patients and those who work in the healthcare system to be that it is now about consolidation when there is a lot of work still to be done to get to a point where we can deliver on the key Sláintecare proposals. One of the consequences of, one, deliberately underfunding the health service and, two, having no additional money for new measures means that we do not even stand still. Even to stand still for next year, the HSE will have to run a very significant deficit. That is just to stand still. When I hear about a recruitment embargo and consolidation, it is not the message that should be sent out. Does Mr. Gloster accept that to deliver on Sláintecare to make sure people have alternative care pathways, continuous year-on-year investment in primary and community care is needed?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Absolutely, yes.

Yet for next year at least there is no new funding and I am not blaming Mr. Gloster for that but consolidation will be working with what the HSE has-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

-----because it has not been given any new funding to expand further in the space of primary and community care.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, that is correct.

That says it all really. We can sum up budget 2024 in a nutshell in terms of that response. Can I put one question about Letterkenny University Hospital?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

It has been in the news quite a lot over the past while and concerns have been expressed by GPs and consultants. I am travelling to meet some of those on Thursday evening in Letterkenny. I will also be at the University Hospital Limerick on Friday to meet management there. Regarding Letterkenny University Hospital, there seems to be major problems and capacity issues, and very worrying signals are being sent out by GPs and also consultants who work at the hospital. What action is the HSE taking to deal with those concerns?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Last week, I was aware of the comments by a group of consultants and by the GP body there, and of the response of the Saolta Group. Significant questions of public confidence arise in that type of narrative and debate. That is not to say that anybody is wrong. I am satisfied the level of concern requires us to have a level of assurance nationally. On Sunday, in fact, I asked the chief operations officer to deploy the performance management improvement team to Letterkenny, not just to the hospital but obviously to the local community services because we have to do both together, to see if we can assist them.

We need to see if we can arrive at a collective agreement between GPs, consultants and staff in the community and hospitals as to the best we can do with what we have. There is room for improvement in that regard. That is commencing this week. It might take a couple of days for them to land on the ground.

I ask Mr. Watt for an update on funding of the carer’s guarantee for family carers to eliminate the postcode lottery that currently exists and take pressure off carers. What is the status of the funding of that guarantee?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have the details of that.

The Minister referred to a guarantee for carers.

Mr. Robert Watt

Does it relate to the hours of homecare support?

No, it is for family carers.

Mr. Robert Watt

We will revert to the Deputy with an answer on that.

I ask Mr. Watt to check that and come back to me.

I ask Mr. Gloster to talk us through the budgetary process. We know there will be a shortfall in funding this year, with underfunding of approximately €1.5 billion for 2023 if all the control measures are put in place. In the coming weeks, we will be dealing with the Supplementary Estimates. If there is a Supplementary Estimate of €1.5 billion, what will happen to that? I ask Mr. Gloster to talk us through the technicality of what happens in terms of that going into the base, or not going into it, for 2024.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Ms McGirr, who has been technically involved in this for many years, may be able to describe the process better than I can. In simple terms, however, coming towards the end of the year there are two possibilities. The first is that we can receive a once-off allocation that assists with our cashing position for the current year. The second is that we can receive a revised estimated position, where money goes into the base for 2023 as it heads into 2024. The piece that goes into the base will determine what our position next year will be in terms of the scale of the challenge and the piece that is once-off will determine how much we clear this year and how much we might end up carrying forward on the balance sheet. Ms McGirr might have a more technical description of that.

Ms Louise McGirr

No, that explanation is fair.

Is the key distinction one between a cash flow issue and an underfunding of services issue?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We manage on a cash basis. We have an allocation for the year and we draw down cash from the Department. If there is pressure on the cash, we have to apply to the Department for an accelerated cash position. Coming towards the end of the year, however, there are two positions. There is the income and expenditure profile, which is a significant piece because it deals with all the liabilities and bills to be paid, and there is a cash position at the end of the year. There is usually a difference between the two because the bills have not caught up with each other.

Ms Louise McGirr

To add to that, the cash position for the Supplementary Estimate is also the Vote. We might have savings in areas other than the HSE that are then taken into account.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, that is the Vote accounting cash. It is done 1 January to 31 December. In essence, the Deputy is asking about the situation if there is a deficit this year of €1.5 billion, let us say. Depending on the amount that is put into the base against that and depending on the amount of it that is recurring expenditure, that indicates what the problem will be next year, along with any shortfall in the expected level of service, ELS-----

That we know about already, yes. What is standard practice in that regard? Does the Supplementary Estimate figure go into the base?

Ms Louise McGirr

It has done so a number of times in the past in health. In general, those were smaller Supplementary Estimates than this. Last year, it did not go into the base; it was a one-off. That was largely because a lot of it was Covid last year and it was difficult. We had a problem in acutes last year and we could see the overruns but it was offset by savings elsewhere in the system. It was not invisible. We had big Covid expenditure, with Omicron and other things. It was more difficult to make out. In 2018-19, the Supplementary Estimate was recurring, or elements of it were recurring. That is dealt with in the Revised Estimates.

It also depends significantly on the macro space in terms of the overall budgetary position, so there are a number of factors.

Should know that in the next three weeks or thereabouts?

Ms Louise McGirr

In the next number of weeks. We will be here.

Is there much negotiation between the Department of Health and Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on the handling of that or its categorisation, for example?

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes.

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes.

I take it the Department of Health would argue for that figure to go into the base.

Ms Louise McGirr

It is clear there are aspects of it on the non-pay acute side that we see in the base next year: medical supplies, surgical supplies, heat and light, laboratory costs and food costs. It is difficult to see how they will go down and then there are elements of it that should not be in the base.

Ms Louise McGirr

The chief executive has spoken repeatedly about getting the controls around the agency pay bill and overtime costs and a much stronger focus on control of the entirely of the pay bill. We are overspending on pay - about a third of the acutes deficit is on pay, agency and overtime - and we do not see that as recurring.

On the acutes, where there are difficulties in recruiting staff? What options are there?

Ms Louise McGirr

There are no difficulties recruiting staff in acutes. Huge numbers of staff go into acutes.

Why then are so many agency staff being used?

Ms Louise McGirr

There are different reasons for that. Operationally, Mr. Gloster and Ms Hoey will have a strong view on it. There is a reliance on agency. There are incentives for agency in terms of its costs. There are rostering issues around it. There is a need for it, of course, in terms of some of the high levels of activity and demand. There is a whole range of different factors. Different hospitals approach it differently.

Does Mr. Gloster wish to comment on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Predominantly, agency use comes in where there is absenteeism or sick leave. That is short notice agency. Agency is needed for that. I would typically describe our agency spend versus our budget at the moment as being three thirds: one third we need to keep because we need to keep using it; one third we need to convert and we would save about 20% of a headline cost in that; and one third we need to cut in terms of efficiencies because of rostering management and so on. There is also workforce choice. Some people want to work agency because they can pick and dictate their days and that suits family life and so on. It is a whole variety of reasons. It is a dependency that has grown and the difficulty I have with it is if the increase in agency was growing and the inability to recruit was reducing, this could be explained but both are growing and that is where a better control environment is required.

Ms Louise McGirr

From a safety perspective, agency is seen as being not as good as permanent staff in terms of the outcomes for staff.

I want to ask Mr. Gloster about the RHAs and the programme under way that we expect will bring huge reform. Are there any implications for the move to RHAs due to the underfunding in the budget?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No. In simple terms, I am due to shortlist for the six RHA leadership positions. I am desktop shortlisting on Friday with first interviews hopefully in the next three to four weeks. They are provided for in the allocation, to be fair. There is a small change requirement out of the 150,000 people. I think I estimated I needed 30 or 40 posts to manage the change process for me and the Department has made that available. On the centre change, I did the draft design of the new centre four weeks ago and the final design goes out next week. I will implement the two in parallel. I do not see the budget affecting that next year.

That is good to hear.

In his opening statement, Mr. Watt said he recognised the importance of reform and moving to a new model of care and a lower cost model of care. Did he make that case to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform when he was looking for the funding? If the Department is moving to a lower cost model of care, that will not happen next week. There is an overlap period and a transition period. Does he accept that? There are costs involved in that but if the final destination is a lower cost model of care and a more efficient system, has Mr. Watt made that case?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we have made that case and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform understands what we are trying to do in terms of the pathways and that money is funded in the waiting list action plan, so, yes, that is understood that we need it -----

However, the Department did not fund it then.

Mr. Robert Watt

It funded €22.5 billion.

No, I am talking about the additional cost of reform and moving to a different system and a lower cost model.

Mr. Robert Watt

We have to look at it in the context of the 80% increase in spending that we have seen since 2016. That is a very significant investment by the Government of taxpayers' money.

That is okay, but Mr. Gloster has spoken about the two main concerns he has in regard to the underfunding for next year, one of those being the slower pace of developing new strategies and the slowing down of reform. Should we not all be on the same page in terms of accelerating reform rather than slowing it down?

Mr. Robert Watt

We are certainly not in the business of slowing down reform. The facts that the system has more resource constraints now and there are challenges mean that we have to double our efforts in terms of pathways-----

Mr. Watt may not be in favour of it but surely that is the implication of the underfunding for next year?

Mr. Robert Watt

No, I do not think so. We need to redouble our efforts now in terms of the reforms. There are parts relating to the ECC where we cannot expand as we would like. They have a-----

I am sorry, Chair, but this is coming to a very fundamental point.

I know but we have run out of time.

There is a different view being given.

I am sorry but we must have some sort of order. We are well out of time. That encourages everybody else to go over time, which would ensure we remain here until 10 o'clock tonight. We are not going to do that.

On the first page of his submission, Mr. Watt refers to a 40% increase in WTEs, from 91,559 to 122,273. Were some of those moratorium posts from the last time? Was there a carry-over of staff who should have been in place in the period up to 2016?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think so.

Had the moratorium been fully lifted at that stage?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, the moratorium would have been lifted at that stage.

Perfect. An additional 178,000 patients have been treated to date this year. Extra patients obviously mean extra PPE, such as gowns and gloves, and more blood tests, X-rays and all of that. For the coming year, Mr. Watt expects for a 23% increase in expenditure on medical and surgical supplies and an 18% increase in heat and light costs, laboratory costs, X-ray imaging and the costs of catering. Are these figures all based on additional demand, additional energy costs and the costs of catering?

Mr. Robert Watt

Exactly. There are two elements. There will be additional activity, for example, X-rays, as an awful lot more diagnostics will be going on, so there is additional volume. In other areas there is the same volume but the price is more expensive. Light and heat are an example and food is just more expensive. It is a combination of both, depending on the area of non-pay.

In terms of food, some catering staff are on the minimum wage. Energy costs and food inflation would be feeding into the increase but a 37% increase still seems significant. Is Mr. Watt happy that it is a realistic amount?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think those numbers refer to the expenditure that has taken place already to date. We are going to look at contracts, procurement strategies and stock management to see if there are ways in which we can save, for example, by more efficiently producing waste and getting better deals. That is a difficult and slow process. It is hard to envisage hundreds of millions in savings from that but the CEO is committed to doing that. We will push ahead with it. It is difficult in the non-pay area.

This year the inflationary environment is very different. We are seeing energy prices, not just energy inflation, slowing down. Rather than not going up by as much, we are actually seeing prices starting to fall so that could help with the situation next year.

Is the 27% increase in X-ray imaging predominantly due to energy costs?

Ms Louise McGirr

It is an increase in expenditure, so it is a mix of price and demand. If we take areas like medical or surgical supplies, the individual items are not the same as they were a number of years ago. They are more expensive. They are obviously more sophisticated and the unit costs are higher.

Is that capital equipment?

Ms Louise McGirr

No, it is medical and surgical supplies.

Mr. Robert Watt

These are some of the operating costs. I do not know exactly how expensive they are. I do not know enough about it but we can come back to the Senator on that. I am sure there is an element of energy and there are staff costs and other elements involved. In terms of the diagnostics more generally, there is a volume issue as well as a rise in prices.

There is often a sort of lazy narrative out there that billions of euro are wasted in the health services and it should be stripped out. That is what we often hear, perhaps from politicians, but also from media commentators. How do the witnesses respond to that? I am playing devil's advocate here.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am particularly anxious to respond to that. That is one of the reasons I prepared the lengthy interview that I gave last week.

I am clear on the fact that there has been significant funding in the health service and people are entitled to see that this money is being used in their best interests. I am equally clear that a lot has been achieved with that.

I have been more than forthright and honest in saying that there are three parts to the problem, one of which is control. There is a control issue in aspects of what we do. However, I reject the notion that the health service or the 150,000 people I am privileged to lead are some sort of "flesh eating" thing on the public finances, as one commentator described it. Ninety-nine per cent of people who come into work in the health service every day work and give their best. Our history leads to the state of our buildings, infrastructure, ICT and everything else. If all of those were corrected there would be a lot more efficiencies but in the meantime, while those are being corrected, we do everything we can to achieve efficiencies. Everybody wants to talk to me about the overspending health service but nobody wants to talk to me about the fact that when we changed our energy contract when it was up for renewal on 1 April, our full-year price on the previous year and on the plan for next year went up by 85%. That is not down to me being a waster. The lights are turned on where patients are looked after and MRI machines and so on are used.

I have accepted that there is a control environment challenge and that makes up about one third of our challenge. I am happy to take that on the chin, deal with it and correct it and I have good plans in place to deal with that. However, I absolutely reject the notion that we are a bunch of wasters with public money.

I appreciate that I am not at the Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach but I refer to my earlier point on the breakdown on funding. That is critical in where the expenditure is going. We need the heads and to break those down exactly because that is crucial in explaining healthcare.

In positive news, we were in Galway together on Friday for the opening of the radiation and oncology centre, which is a wonderful-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Super.

-----capital investment project in Galway and the HSE is on record as saying that significant investment is required in University Hospital Galway. That is not just for University Hospital Galway but for the region, including the accident and emergency department, paediatrics and maternity, new laboratories, which are over 50 years old, additional beds, the cancer centre, the surgical hub and beds that are required in Merlin Park University Hospital. Significant investment is required over the coming years. Unfortunately we have been on the back foot and as Mr. Gloster said, there has been too long a debate on Merlin Park University Hospital versus University Hospital Galway. Are the progress to design teams and so on all out of the capital budget or are those-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We do not always have to wait for capital approval for either the full building or even the full design team. We get on with preliminary work and scoping to shorten the time when we come to full design. Usually a full design team would be appointed when you are close to knowing you have the capital allocation to proceed but a significant amount of work goes ahead before that.

In the case of Galway, both the Secretary General at the Department of Health and I have been there separately. We firmly believe, and it is being comprised, that Galway and the Saolta University Health Care Group would have a special project team, albeit administrative and not statutory, with expertise from outside of the health service that is willing to help us to make sure the most comprehensive and time-driven plan comes forward for the whole of the University Hospital Galway site and that the elective hospital for Merlin Park is in hand. Galway is so far behind the capital curve, despite last week's more than welcome announcement. We are anxious to expedite that in the best way possible. Our only interest is in leaving Galway in a good state in our term of office. A lot of design work can be done before capital announcements are made and I am permitting as much of that as I can.

I have a concern that I raised here the last time and I know the Minister addressed this in his speech the last day. He does not want to see projects like the accident and emergency department and maternity and paediatrics being left behind while we await a larger plan. That has always been my concern because we have seen this project advance.

It was ready to go to planning as a shell and core kit-out for paediatrics and maternity. That was changed to a full kit-out and design. That was five years ago. As I have said on numerous occasions, the Minister, Deputy Harris, was advised by Saolta that planning permission would be lodged prior to Christmas 2018. Mr. Gloster can see the frustration. When we talk about a new special project team and outside expertise, the concern is that this will add years to the protect. I appreciate Mr. Gloster has stated-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Nobody should try to dissuade the people of Galway from their frustration. The frustration is justified. What I would say is that what the Secretary General and I have agreed is not a years-long thing. There is a group of internal and external experts in a project group, supporting the CEO of Saolta and me nationally, to bring together all the previous work that was done into one tight, comprehensive plan with a list of priorities. Then I think Government will be in a position to be fully confident in investing in the scale of that plan. The scale of that plan will take time. It will not all be in one year's investment. Last week, there was a milestone with the opening of the new primary care centre in Tuam and the repurposed buildings. I think the University Hospital Galway plan can come together quickly. I would expect to see a definitive, total project site plan in no more than three months. For example, one could build 100 beds in Galway and not worry about what they are called. Build 100 beds first and then let us assign them to the need.

I will hold Mr. Gloster to that.

I raised the Cork elective hospital issue earlier. My understanding is that the full design team has only been appointed now. I think there was an impression that the design team had been appointed.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Much of the preliminary work had been done that would allow a specification for a full design team to work with. One normally would not go to the market for a full design team for something of that scale without having preliminary work done to set out what is being procured from a design team.

A design team has not been appointed yet.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are only weeks from it.

What kind of timescale are we talking about from the time we appoint the design team to actually getting plans finalised?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would hope months.

What kind of date is Mr. Gloster talking about before we can go forward for planning?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The third quarter of 2024 would be the best possible but I always push to see if we can shave time off that.

I fully accept what Mr. Gloster is saying about staff. I agree that 99.99% of staff are dedicated and committed to the work that they are doing, but they are getting frustrated by not having the infrastructure. That is one of the problems that we now have in the Cork region. We have a significant growth in population but we have not had growth in hospital facilities in the last 23 years. I am wondering about the timescale for this so that we can deal with the demands.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am not sure if the Secretary General wants to comment on that but I would say that, rather than tying down to a timeframe, I am working as fast as possible to complete the design.

Two projects have planning. The paediatric hospital in Cork has full planning. Where are we with that? The second is Mallow General Hospital. A four-storey building has been built, with 24 rooms on floor two, 24 rooms on floor three, and 40 rooms between the ground floor and first floor. Nothing has been decided about what those 40 rooms would be used for. Where are we with that? We physically have a building.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the last occasion we dealt with Mallow, working from recollection, I think I said that beds were due to open. Some were new and some were replacement beds for old infrastructure. As the Deputy pointed out, there was a shell or available space for up to another 40, with a decision to be made. I do not have an update on what will happen with that.

We have a problem with rehabilitation, for instance.

The only rehabilitation facility is in Dún Laoghaire. There was talk about a rehabilitation facility for Cork 25 years ago. Is that a possibility? I am not talking about a facility for Cork alone, but for Munster. Is it feasible to examine the Mallow project from the point of view of a rehabilitation facility?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is feasible to look at it from that point of view. I am happy to hear what the hospital group and the community services there have to say about it. However, without meaning to put a dampener on things, I do not have the profile to open another 40 hospital beds on top of the beds we are planning to open next year.

There is challenge in respect of rehabilitation facilities, however. There is a long waiting list. People are blocking up beds in hospitals because they need to get into rehabilitation facilities. There is also not an appropriate level of step-down facilities to transfer people to while they are waiting to get into Dún Laoghaire. That is also a challenge within the hospital system.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not dispute that. As I have said to the Deputy previously, that challenge is present in many parts of the country. To be fair, there is a difference between what we are talking about here today, which is managing the resources we have available, and what might be needed. Need and what we have are two different things. I have the resources I have to run the health service. An additional 40 beds in Mallow on top of what is planned is not in the offing right now.

In this regard, is efficiency-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not dispute the need, however.

The point I am making is that there are 600 beds occupied at any one time. Perhaps it is 500; it varies from day to day. What I am saying is that, in many cases, there are not appropriate step-down facilities to transfer people to and that, as a result, people are staying in hospital beds while people who are waiting to get into hospital cannot do so.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair, I equally do not have the ability to take those 600 people out of hospital, bringing the staff who are minding them with them. To open an additional 40 beds in Mallow, I require a new staff profile.

I am talking about step-down facilities that should be used.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

I am not necessarily talking about Mallow; I am talking about the number of contracted beds. For instance, I had a difficulty trying to get someone who had Huntington's disease out of Cork University Hospital. It was difficult to find a facility that would take that person because of the particular challenges involved. There is no plan to deal with the various challenges that our hospitals are dealing with. They are dealing with those challenges very well but the HSE and the Department do not appear to be putting in place step-down facilities to deal with slightly complicated cases fast enough. Many of the 600 who are in hospital are not straightforward cases and are not in a situation where they can be transferred to a nursing home setting immediately. They need additional support. How can that issue be fast-tracked?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

First, we should use the transition care available to us. Again, contrary to the popular opinion in some quarters at the weekend, I have not cut that nor has the Secretary General asked me to. With regard to long-stay care, we use what is available and people exercise their choice in that area. To be fair, despite all the bad news about the budget, there is money to open the beds that we have already committed to building and additional public community beds will open next year. There is staffing available for that. We are making progress but it is at a certain pace.

On the whole issue of planning, the increasing population and the challenges faced in hospitals has been discussed. Is there a need to get people who are occupying beds in hospitals out faster, something on which progress has not been made in the past three to four years? That does not appear to have changed in the past four years.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It has changed in the past six months. We have gone from a running average of 600 delayed transfers of care, DTOCs, to just below 500. There has been progress. I have a target of a monthly average of 440 DTOCs by the end of this year. Some would say that is not very ambitious but I will take 440 over 600 at this time last year. We will continue to progress on that. It will take time but there is planning, despite what might appear to be the absence of it. The 2018 capacity review, which covers the period out to 2031, indicates that a certain level of community beds are required but we can only put those in place when we have the resources available to do so.

I have a question for the CEO.

Mr. Gloster stated that he has not been asked to make cuts for next year but that there will be a deficit next year. He outlined in his opening statement, if I am summarising it accurately and fairly, that he is looking at consolidation of some of the gains that have been made but no more growth in those areas. That sounds like a cut. It sounds like a conversation has been had because he made that statement. Will he come back on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair, if Deputy Lahart wants to use the word "cut", it is a cut in the pace of development. I have not been asked by the Minister, the Secretary General or the Government to cut the number of staff, home help hours provided, open beds, GPs or clinical services to try to close the gap in the deficit. I have not been asked to do that. It is important to be fair. That is what I mean when I say I have not been asked to make cuts.

Nevertheless, in his interview Mr. Gloster mentioned it would affect junior doctors and a wide range of things.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes and I am not resiling from that. For example, the budget for 2023 said please grow the grade code junior doctors are in by 500. We have grown it by 770 so far. That is the point. That is not a cut. We put in place what we said we would do and more. It is the "and more" that is causing the problem, so it is a control. I do not see it as a cut. I would see it as a cut if I reduced the additional 770 who are in place. I have not done that.

No, I am just trying to drill into it. What can we expect? I cannot be specific. Consolidation is not bad - it is positive because it is not a cut - but if growth or further advances were anticipated and are not happening, growth is restricted.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, I do not dispute that. I also said in my interview last Sunday week-----

What I am getting at is-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

----- that will have an impact in years to come.

What I am driving at is that although conversations have not taken place, it seems from the statement Mr. Gloster made, that he is accepting a smaller envelope.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would not say conversations have or have not taken place. The Secretary General and I probably talk to each other every day, certainly in recent weeks and I speak to the Minister. There are many conversations, but once the primary budget announcement is made and we have the figure, I have to start to anticipate, prepare and plan for the year. In that context, I have been open in saying there is one missing variable, which is the Supplementary Revised Estimate, which will inform the scale of the challenge next year. Even with that, we will be in a financially pressured situation next year, which will result in an element of deficit no matter how good I am at control. However, I do not plan to deal with that deficit by cutting services.

We looked at the idea of two elective hospitals for Dublin. I do not want to get bogged down in local stuff but are we still on track for those as a result of this?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we are. Proposals are with the Minister and he will bring them to the Government in the next few weeks.

It has been said that Mr. Watt might have brought a public expenditure mentality to the Department of Health. What might that look like?

Mr. Robert Watt

I have no idea what that means.

Is it a bad thing?

Mr. Robert Watt

I doubt it is a bad thing but I do not really know what it means.

What is the health budget oversight group in the Department? What does it do and who is on it?

Mr. Robert Watt

Ms McGirr is involved.

Ms Louise McGirr

The health budget oversight group includes officials from the Department of Health, the HSE and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We meet monthly. It has been in place for a number of years and it looks at the expenditure, what is happening, what measures are being taken to control expenditure, the rationale for overspends this year - that has been the big focus - and savings and efficiency measures.

What has been a big focus?

Ms Louise McGirr

The overspends this year or the emerging deficit, what measures are being taken to control it and where we can find savings elsewhere to potentially offset some of the risk in acute hospitals.

We meet monthly and the minutes are published, so there is a significant focus around the three different and most interested parties.

Officials from the HSE and the Departments of Health and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform attend. Who from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform attends?

Ms Louise McGirr

My counterpart, the assistant secretary, in charge of the health Vote and his team. There is my team and I as well as Mr. Stephen Mulvany, the HSE's chief financial officer. There is also operations so we often have Mr. Damien McCallion, the chief operations officer, and others from the service areas, depending on the issue. Procurement and other matters could be discussed.

Are those minutes published monthly?

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes.

At least they were published monthly up until May. They have not been published since.

Ms Louise McGirr

It is the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform which publishes the minutes.

Will the committee secretariat ask why they have not been published?

Ms Louise McGirr

We can get in touch with the Department. I do not know the reason the minutes have not been published. There is no particular reason why they would not be published.

The minutes were published on 17 May, 2 May, 4 April and 13 March.

Ms Louise McGirr

I will check on that.

They do not appear to have been published since.

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes, I am not sure-----

I accept the matter is not Ms McGirr's responsibility.

Ms Louise McGirr

Yes, but there is no particular reason. There was no change in policy, if I can put it like that. I assumed they had been published so I will check that.

I thank Ms McGirr.

I have a question for Mr. Gloster on his engagement with the private hospitals. I know the private hospitals made some public comments a number of weeks ago about procuring capacity for the winter surge. How is that going? Have negotiations been concluded and what type of bed stock has been procured?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The average rate of use of private hospital beds this year has been approximately 160 per day. When I arrived in March, that was coming out of the winter period and it was not funded or front-loaded for the rest of this year. To be fair to the Secretary General, it was one of the measures on which I asked him to give me a bit of space, which he did. Coming in towards planning for the months ahead I stated to this committee that I agreed we should plan ahead rather than pick up the phone on any one day and look for beds. With the agreement of the Department and the Minister, we issued a framework to the private hospitals which will see us continue to use the 160 private beds per day for November, December, January and February, plus a surge capacity. That surge capacity could go up to 250 or 260 beds, or even 300 beds, depending on the pressure. We will review the position at the end of February as to what the future looks like. What the Private Hospitals Association is predominantly critical of, as it is entitled to be although its pressures are different from mine, is that we have not committed to a longer term strategy of two to three years of usage. Right now, I am simply not in a position to consider that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The framework has gone out and I have not got all the answers back. It is in a process but I expect we will be able to continue to use beds this winter. The Secretary General has supported that clearly. We spend an awful lot of money on the initiative. It is a serious amount of money, and I am anxious we review it at the end of February to see if it is what we need.

That is fine. I thank Mr. Gloster. There is one other issue I am concerned about relates to what has happened with the budget and longer term strategies. Deputy Cullinane referenced the stroke strategy earlier. In the most recent census, the number of people who identify as having sight loss has increased by 400%. That is almost 300,000 people who now identify as having some form of sight loss. Yet we do not appear to have a strategy to eliminate or at least reduce preventable blindness and preventable sight loss. Does Dr. Henry have any view on whether there should be a developed national strategy to eliminate preventable sight loss?

Dr. Colm Henry

There are elements in place. The Senator will be very familiar with them because he has expressed an interest in this matter previously. We discussed the retina screening programme, which is quite successful in identifying people with diabetes who are at risk of progressing to severe visual loss and also in intervening. It is one of our well-established screening programmes. In addition, the work we have done to bring the treatment of people with eye conditions, including cataracts, paediatric conditions and macular conditions, out into the community was mentioned earlier.

That is creating extra capacity, reducing the times people are waiting to see consultants and making sure they get access sooner to treatment by a whole range of healthcare professionals, not just consultants. That is helping to prevent blindness too.

As to an overall strategy that captures screening and treatment pathways, we have an ophthalmology national clinical care programme, led by Dr. Billy Power, who has supported us in developing these pathways. We can certainly discuss that with him and I am open to any suggestions from the Senator as to how we can move from what we are doing now - from screening and early treatment intervention - to something that is broader in its remit.

That is great, and I might engage with Dr. Henry directly on that in the coming weeks. On another question, Dr. Henry might give us an update on how the HPV and flu vaccination programmes are going, although it is probably too early with regard to the flu vaccination. In addition, does he have any further update on the Covid vaccination programme?

Dr. Colm Henry

On Covid, the numbers are very steady at the moment, thankfully. There are always a number of variants coming out and some of the newer ones that we were worried about some weeks ago have arrived here, but there is no suggestion yet that there is what we call immune evasion or any greater morbidity associated with them, and the pressure on the hospitals is not significant at this point in time. However, we have learned the price of not being vigilant when it comes to health protection and surveillance of new variants coming through.

The vaccination programme is well under way for both influenza and Covid-19 and there is good uptake. As the Senator said, it is too early for an update and we usually report at the end of the season. We are having a particular push this year on the importance of healthcare workers taking up both the influenza and Covid-19 vaccines, building on the figure we reached last year of 55%. There is also a particular focus on the flu vaccine for younger people in terms of bringing the vaccine directly to schools, rather than relying on parents bringing their children because that has not met with great success in recent years. With regard to HPV, there is a slow uptake in regard to the once-off extended programme both for school girls and boys, and beyond. I will bring back an updated report on where we are against the targets for that.

I want to pick up on the points made by Mr. Watt in regard to terminal overspends in the acutes and the need to - these are my words - rein in that expenditure. We know that a large proportion of the acutes are voluntary hospitals and, certainly, all of the big hospitals in the Dublin region are voluntary hospitals. What controls are there, either on the part of the HSE or the Department, in regard to very basic things in the operation of those voluntaries, such as the absence of 24-seven working, consultant performance and the oversight of that, which we were talking about earlier, performance information generally in regard to those hospitals, budget allocations, accident and emergency units and staffing levels? Where are the controls on that very substantial expenditure?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are service level agreements with all the hospitals whereby the hospitals are contracted by the HSE to provide various services, a budget is allocated and we set out what we expect for that budget. There are issues around expenditure controls within the hospitals, and it is not just the voluntaries as there are issues around control for all of the large acute hospitals. I do not think the variance we are seeing against budget this year varies, if that is the right way of putting it, or I do not think there are differences in the performance between the different hospitals, and they are broadly all showing the same type of overrun. We have a service level agreement. There are other issues that the Deputy mentioned which are more to do with the relationship between, let us say, clinical directors and consultants in terms of managing performance. There is always scope for us to improve the performance dialogue and improve the relationship between the HSE and these entities through the service level agreement, SLA, process and other processes, and that is something we need to work on. That performance dialogue will take place in the context of the budget and the service plan being finalised at the end of the year.

Okay, but it is not exactly clear what the controls are. Mr. Watt spoke about overruns across all of the hospitals. Is that data available in regard to the voluntaries? The other thing Mr. Watt referred to is the clinical directors. The clinical directors used to report to the HSE.

As I understand it, they report to the hospital groups and the reports are few and far between. Would Mr. Watt accept that there is a governance gap there with regard to the very substantial expenditure in the voluntaries? Mr. Watt said earlier that we do not know, for example, what the cost of a hip operation is in hospital A compared to hospital B. There seems to be a lack of drilling down into actual costs and the cost base.

Mr. Robert Watt

At this stage I think we have quite impressive data across the expenditure performance of the hospitals. We have got impressive data on outputs and outcomes and the costs per procedure. The real challenge is to use that data to drive the performance and to ensure we have the leaders who are interested in using the data in a way to-----

Whose responsibility is it to drive that performance?

Mr. Robert Watt

Ultimately, performance is a matter for the CEOs, the clinical director and the management team of the hospitals-----

Who is responsible for the oversight of that?

Mr. Robert Watt

The oversight is the role of the HSE through the SLAs and the performance process to ensure that. Those conversations take place. I am sure some of those conversation are difficult, and hope they are. It varies from hospital to hospital. There is variability in performance with regard to hospitals. This is not in terms of the financial position for this year, which is interesting as it is broadly the same sort of trend, but in performance from the perspective of unscheduled and scheduled care, where there are differences between hospitals.

We rarely see those data. Does the Department have any role in that oversight at all?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are various groups on which the Department is represented along with HSE colleagues, certainly when it comes to waiting lists, unscheduled care and scheduled care. We have different groups. There are a lot of data, and it is a question of how one manages and uses it.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To clarify with regard to the funded or section 38 hospitals, their service level agreement is managed by the hospital group within which they currently are. That is going to change when they come within the RHA, and the RHA will have a compliance function. I can assure the committee that there are very robust discussions on both sides.

That is the difficulty. It is all arm's length stuff, and we do not get line of sight with regard to the funding. Mr. Gloster is saying it is mainly the role of the hospital groups, so where is the oversight of the hospital groups?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The national acute hospitals division.

Which is under the HSE?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is Professor Mary Day reporting in to me, yes.

Okay. Are there reports on performance from that office?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are, yes. There are quite extensive reports from the national performance oversight group that meets in the HSE every month. There is a lot of scrutiny of the data. I think the point that Mr. Watt would make, and I would make myself, is that we have to get better at turning that data into knowledge, which is where we are challenged with regard to integrating it all.

I have received positive testimony regarding the chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD, clinic in the Moycullen primary care centre in Galway, for example. I recently met with the Asthma Society of Ireland regarding its issues and concerns. It was concerned about the impact the recruitment embargo would have on delivery. Maybe the witnesses might be able to reassure them on that, or not.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If it is a nurse, doctor or an allied health professional, they are not affected right now.

That is perfect.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Consultants, nurses, advanced nursing practitioners and allied health professionals are being recruited.

Okay, I thank Mr. Gloster for that. It was mentioned that the HSE has a budget for 500 junior doctors.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It was a growth of 500 this year in the grade code we call medical-dental. That includes dentists, orthodontists and consultant doctors as well. Above and net, we have grown 770 but if one strips it back - I do not know the exact figure, but Ms Hoey will have it - the number of junior doctors has grown exponentially.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

It is 543.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is 543 this year. The number of junior doctors has grown this year by the total growth we had planned for dentists and everybody else.

Okay. I am not saying that they are not all absolutely needed-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Completely.

-----but there was a plan and budget for 500, and the HSE hired 770. I am thinking deeper here, looking in on these things and questioning them. The question is, when the HSE reached 500, did it contact the Department of Health and say it was going to 770, and that it was going to keep going? How do these things operate?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If the Senator goes back to my opening statement for 2024, there will be no absence of clarity as to what we are funded to do regardless of anyone's view of what we might need. What we are funded to recruit is what we will recruit, and that is when it will stop. That does not mean anything other than we have achieved what we are funded to achieve.

That did not happen in 2023.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, it did not.

I am not saying that they are not needed, but it did not happen.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, it did not. That is part of the third control environment that I have accepted is my part of the deficit to deal with.

That brings us to the end of the engagement. I just want to make a couple of quick comments. I do not necessarily want responses, but I would like the comments to be absorbed into the system. Perhaps we can get a response at a later stage. What was it the former US Secretary of Defense used to say? There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns. He followed that around to infinity. In relation to health budgeting, it is necessary that we, the members of the committee, the Minister and the general public have some idea as to how close we are to identifying the extent of the known unknowns. It comes as a shock both to those working within the health service and to those who analyse it from the outside. We can take it that politicians will always exaggerate on one side or the other to suit the occasion, and that administrators will accentuate some aspects from time to time to draw particular conclusions on a subject, but it is time that we identified the known unknowns. I was told twice last week in the House that we have a demand-driven service and that it cannot be accurately quantified. We cannot accurately quantify it, but we can very nearly quantify it.

It is necessary to identify the extent to which we are on a moving target or the extent to which we are stopped and the target is moving. In other words, we would like to see a situation at budget or Estimates time whereby some decision is made in relation to the overhang from the previous year. That is part and parcel of what has to be dealt with. We also need to know to what extent different issues that have come up in the course of a year, whether on a monthly, bi-monthly or quarterly basis, have affected the overall outcome by the end of the year. Otherwise, we are going to be into a situation where there is no end to the continuous call for more and more funding. The HSE is not an employment agency; we cannot solve everything that way. However, we need to ensure that sufficient provision is made to keep the service going in a way that is expected and given the costs already undertaken.

There are two things that follow there. The Department is known as the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Reform can achieve amazing results in some cases. The way we do things needs to be borne in mind. The comparison I make there is that in some recent visits to both public and private health services, I saw a difference in the way situations were managed. Small things make large differences at the end of the day. For example, the distance between one specialty and another, the distance between the reception area and a particular consultant's rooms, or whatever the case may be, makes a huge difference in the overall time cost. There could be ten or 20 of them in the course of the day, and they add to the cost and the merry-go-round. What I saw was that in the private health system, there is a direct approach right from the front door. It is off in the distance, there is no waiting, and people are on the move all the time. I mentioned carparking at a previous meeting. In the public hospital system, you can expect to be told not to park in certain areas. Where can we park? There has to be a set-down place for patients who are not ambulant. Otherwise, patients will have to be carried. There is a rigid line that we do not seem to be able to cross. The probability is that that leads to overruns and extra expenditure.

The other issue I want to mention is identification of the precise causes of the costs, including, for instance, higher prices for individual medicines and higher prices for everything and anything.

In the current inflationary situation, there is a tendency for everybody to say, “Everything has gone up, let us add on our bit and we are in line with general trends everywhere else." That should not happen. It does not work because it has the effect of increasing costs and reducing the degree of certainty. Costs are being increased but at the same time it is reducing the scope of the services that could be provided.
Today's discussion is timely. I have asked this question for many years and every year for the last ten years without exception the Minister for Health replied that adequate funding has been made available to deliver health services. There have been one or two close shaves but every year, without exception, there has been an overrun. Everything in the health services is now identified with an overrun. That is not a good place to be because the taxpayers see themselves as funding this thing that is going nowhere. That should not happen. We need to be competitive and active in pursuing the extent to which public health services can give the same degree and value of services as the private sector. As I said before, we need competition in this area. People may laugh at my saying that but I can tell them about it chapter and verse, and a committee member, who was a former Minister of State, knows all about it as well. We need to be alert because if we are not, then somebody will wake us up. That situation cannot and should not happen because we have a great deal of expertise at our disposal from which we must draw and inquire, at the right time, as to where we are going and as to whether we are going in the right direction, are covering all options and ports and are moving forward in a satisfactory way.
The last point I want to mention is home care and home help.

Private hospitals certainly do not provide such care.

No. The Deputy has the added advantage of having been inside the system. As a former Minister of State, who worked in the system, she knows where there is potential but it is not as simple as she has made it out to be from time to time.

Home help is an extremely difficult and demanding service because the people who expect the service are waiting on a daily basis and people have different needs. Some patients require a great deal of assistance and others need a daily visit. There is a vast difference between both types of care and the commitment needed.

I would love to see some means found to address travel when it comes to the provision of home help. The number of people a home help person can visit in a day is limited by the extent to which he or she can get through the traffic in an area, and the traffic system has all changed. I have not mentioned Naas General Hospital and the community care services in Kildare but please consider that they have been mentioned. With all that in mind, we ask for an up-to-date report to be provided to us on a monthly basis.

I thank the officials from the HSE and the Department of Health for attending and giving of their time. I thank the members who are here all the time and who stayed until the end of the meeting, I hasten to add, just in case people think I had hoped that everybody might leave. Finally, I thank the committee officials for being ever-present.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.59 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 November 2023.
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