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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Winter Preparedness in the Hospital System: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the preparedness of the hospital system for the expected seasonal increase in respiratory and other illnesses this winter. To commence the committee's consideration of this matter, I welcome from the HSE Mr. Bernard Gloster, chief executive officer, Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer, Ms Mary Day, national director of acute operations, Mr. Joe Ryan, national director of operational performance and integration, and Ms Sandra Broderick, assistant national director for older persons services.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members taking part via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of winter preparedness I invite Mr. Gloster to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to appear before the Joint Committee on Health to discuss the preparedness of the healthcare system for the expected seasonal increase in respiratory and other illnesses this winter. The Chair has already welcomed my colleagues. I am also supported by Mr. Ray Mitchell and Ms. Sara Maxwell.

When I took up my post and first attended this committee in March this year I indicated my intention, with the agreement of the Minister, to move away from the annual cycle of winter plans. In this context the HSE has prepared and commenced an in-year unscheduled care management plan which will run for the coming period. In addition, a more sustainable three-year plan has been drafted and I anticipate its approval as we approach 2024. Both plans are based on four points of emphasis towards which I have directed all HSE services in recent months.

The first of those is avoidance operations, which is heavily led by community services in conjunction with hospitals and is aimed at hospital avoidance where appropriate. Emergency department operations is led within those departments and is aimed at maximising flow at that point of the patient journey and, equally important, the experience of people while waiting admission. In hospital operations the point of focus is on all aspects of processes within hospitals to ensure that decisions regarding patient care are made in the timeliest fashion and the mechanisms are there to give effect to those decisions, for example, diagnostics. The fourth category is discharge operations. Again, this is predominantly the function of community and primary care services working with hospitals to reduce the length of time a patient spends in hospital after the acute phase of care has been determined as concluded.

There is little doubt, as we face this coming period, that trolley waits and pressures will be a feature of our services. The focus of the HSE is to ensure not only that these are kept to the minimum extent possible but also that there is a pathway to continuous improvement. I repeat our sincere regret to any person who has a bad experience while waiting to access our services, including those who have to wait in emergency departments beyond an acceptable timeframe. I particularly recognise older people and those who find themselves in vulnerable situations. I restate our commitment that their care and comfort will be a priority even when some waiting is unavoidable.

Some recent information helps to contextualise the position. Year on year trolley waits have dropped by an average of 21 per day, or 6.5%. While recognising some individual site variations and challenges, this is to be welcomed. More focused counting methodologies will assist a detailed daily understanding of the position. In recent months, delayed transfers of care, DTOCs, have moved from an early year challenge of 600 to 550, and in the past month improved further to 474. Again, more focused counting methodology will assist in understanding the problems and informing responses. Year-on-year breaches of the nine-hour limit for those ages over 75 have, on average, decreased by 15 per day, reflecting a 25% improvement. Work is now focused on maintaining substantial reductions in both the 24-hour and nine-hour breaches. We have seen some positive indications of that in recent weeks. These are to be welcomed but are not something to be complacent about.

Attendances remain on a par with last year. Within this, however, a greater number of patients have been admitted, resulting in 40 more patients per day needing an acute bed, which is a 4.4% increase year on year. Improvements in trolley waits and delayed transfer are of particular significance in this context. I assure members and the public that a full system-wide management and clinical leadership hands-on approach is being taken to exploiting every opportunity to respond to the public need, particularly as it manifests in the emergency department context.

I am aware of recent commentary in respect of communications regarding discharge and options for people, for whom it has already been decided that alternative care is a requirement.

It is regrettable that some of this narrative has emerged, particularly for older people and their families, when it is abundantly clear that the measures are appropriate, sensitive and, most importantly, a response to patient safety issues. There is a clear and unambiguous connection between delayed transfers of care and the pressures in EDs in several hospitals. It is of course accepted there are also other contributory factors.

I have made it a clear priority of this year’s focus that older and more frail people are to be the most urgent focus of all of our services, including where necessary their care experience in EDs while awaiting admission. There is no doubt we can do better and recent indications are proof of this. We have and continue to have significant support from the Minister and his Department and I am satisfied this will continue into 2024. I previously advised the committee of a new framework for private hospital use and despite much criticism at the time, this has been well responded to. This will be used appropriately in the weeks ahead.

I have advices from the chief clinical officer in respect of respiratory syncytial virus, RSV, seasonal Influenza and Covid-19, all of which continue to be monitored and feature in our plans, which are adjustable to the circumstances to the greatest degree possible. Communication with the public on options for care and regular proactive reporting on the patient flow data, such as trolleys and DTOC, will feature more strongly in the coming weeks and months. I believe it is important that the HSE continues to increase its publication of data in real time for the public to see.

In conclusion, I want to thank our staff across the entire HSE and funded agencies who participate in our response to unscheduled and emergency care pressures and challenges. There is little doubt but that their flexibility and innovation contributes significantly to our response. I thank the public for their ongoing co-operation with measures and advices and I urge all relevant groups to please take up the option of flu and Covid-19 vaccinations and boosters as a means of protection for all. This concludes my opening statement. I thank the Chair.

I thank Mr. Gloster. We will move straight away into questions and Senator Seán Kyne will lead them off this morning.

I thank Mr. Gloster and welcome him and his team. I would like some clarity on the figure for DTOCs, which "have moved from an early year challenge of 600 to 550, and in the past month improved further to 474". Is that 474 patients from across the country on a monthly basis?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, the DTOC number is taken at particular points and that is the number we would look at. If I looked at it today I would expect to see it in that territory. It might go slightly up or down but as I said when I first came here in March what I have been pursuing as part of the answer to the overall pressures is the whole DTOC position. It is going in the right direction but I certainly would not be happy until I get the figure to below 400. I would want it to be at 400 by the end of this year, consistently, and I would want the figure to be heading towards 300 next year.

Okay, I thank Mr. Gloster. On that point, there is best practice in different hospitals and it is always important we learn from the best performing hospitals. Some of them may be best performing because they have more capacity, and some of them because they perhaps have better management, or whatever. Is that something Mr. Gloster is cognisant of or keeps track of?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes. There are three components to what would be called an improved, or improving, DTOC management position. The first is the available options outside of the hospital for people who require some support when they leave, whether it is home support, home care packages, home help, or indeed nursing home care. The availability is one part that dictates it. The second part that dictates it is effective decision-making within the hospital where it is flagged early that a person is heading for discharge but if he or she does not get particular supports they will end up in DTOC. A best-practising hospital will do what is called predicted day of discharge, PDD. The key to the best practice is actually outside the hospital then, it is in the community healthcare organisation, or CHO, as we call them. The best practising CHOs are the ones who have their staff embedded in the hospital and managing the patient's discharge from the time it is indicated right out to the point the patient gets to where he or she is going.

How is the uptake of the flu and Covid-19 vaccines going, particularly for hospital staff?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is not anywhere as good as I want it to be. I will ask Dr. Henry to talk about the uptake in a second. I will just use the opportunity to put on the record we are still dealing with a challenge in terms of healthcare worker uptake. It is better on the flu vaccine than on the Covid-19 vaccine. We are also dealing with a challenge around vulnerable groups particularly in the follow-through on Covid-19 and part of that is influenced by things such as indifference and online commentary. As the Senator knows, there are very stark anti-vax views out there. We get them quite regularly. Dr. Henry will talk to the data.

Dr. Colm Henry

At this point in time, we are still actively trying to get as many people as possible. There are more than 1,000 clinics for healthcare workers right across communities and hospitals. We are at approximately 14% uptake out of 15,000 healthcare workers for Covid-19. It is skewed slightly because people who have had Covid-19 in the previous three months do not need a vaccine. We have approximately 30% uptake for flu vaccines. We are not happy with this at all and want to get to a much higher figure. What is a high enough figure? Nowhere is high enough and we want to keep pushing to get as many people protected as possible for the reasons the CEO has just outlined. It is not just about individual protection; it is for protecting vulnerable people who are under the care of healthcare workers, vulnerable services and our capacity going into the winter that might be affected if healthcare workers become sick as a consequence of Covid-19 or influenza.

Are there Covid-19 clinics available?

Dr. Colm Henry

They are all over the place. There are more than 1,000 of them.

More than 1,000. That is effectively in every healthcare setting across the country.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes and there are peer vaccinators everywhere. There are staff from within facilities who are trained in administering both vaccines and that makes it more accessible. I would certainly say, if I go back to my time in the health service, access to vaccines was previously a problem. I would not say that access is a problem now and I have not heard anyone complain that access is the problem. There is an issue about motivation and acceptability and some level of vaccine hesitancy as well.

That is disappointing and hard to credit, to be honest. One would imagine that healthcare staff who are on the front line and meeting vulnerable people on a daily basis would get vaccinated.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We emphasise this through every medium we can, social media, videos, in-house communications and public advertisements, right down to pictures of me getting them. We literally have it in everybody's face. The message is there. Ultimately it is on a voluntary and consent basis.

As regards UHG, last year there was extra capacity because the old ED building was in use. What does Mr. Gloster envisage for this year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Ms. Day can talk to some of the detail of that but we are continuing with everything we had last year. That is the short point. Ms Day will talk about this winter but inked to that, because I know it was a very particular question of Senator Kyne's the last time I was at this committee, we have expedited the finishing of a master plan for the overall capital investment on that site over the next few months. This will include the new ED which, I cannot but say, is so far overdue it will have to be a big priority. I know the Minister is particularly supportive of that. Will Ms Day talk about the ED for the winter?

Ms Mary Day

With regard to Galway, as previously stated the beds in that old ED are continue to stay open from last year. There has been a lot of process improvement in Galway, in that the PMIU and acute operations have been working with Galway to improve processes and flow. There has been some good work on the outputs of that. As the CEO said, we have been very conscious of and have been doing a lot of work with Galway and the group CEO continues to chair the campus plan. We are also very aware of what the priorities will be for the big developments and have put a lot of effort into making those a reality as regards to how we can deliver on them.

I thank Ms. Day. The beds that were available in the old ED will still be available for the coming winter.

Ms Mary Day

They will still be available.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Also private hospital support.

Ms Mary Day

Yes, private hospitals.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Private hospital support is also available to Galway again this year.

There will be additional surge capacity, which I will issue to all the hospital groups next week, so there will be a band for them to work within to flex at times of particular pressure. That is hard to do because there is pressure most days, but they will have all the support they had previously.

On home help availability, there is a staffing issue in getting home helps. What is the picture throughout the country?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will ask Ms Broderick, who is the national lead for older persons, to address that. The best contribution we probably made in respect of that issue this year was the change in the rate we paid to the contracted providers. Whether they were non-governmental, not-for-profit or for-profit providers, we substantially increased the per hour rate to try to enhance their capacity to recruit and retain. We are starting to see some positive trend in that regard. Ms Broderick will give a flavour of the overall home help position.

Ms Sandra Broderick

For the year to date, 55,000 people throughout the country are receiving home supports. We have an increasing waiting list, which has gone up to 3,500, for new packages. As Mr. Gloster outlined, we have increased the rate for our private providers that are not impacted by recruitment in the way we are currently challenged. We expect the waiting list to start coming down ever so slowly, but we are prioritising the delayed transfers of care of people in hospital to get them out sooner. Our priority is to get those people who are in hospital and require home support out of hospital. If people are waiting for home support in hospitals, we are using intermediate care facilities so they do not get left in an acute bed while they wait for home support. We appreciate we are very challenged with home support. We are seeing a 4% increase in demand for home support year on year. It is important to say we will deliver 22 million hours of home support this year, which is an increase of approximately 4 million since 2018. The growth in home support is enormous but so too is the demand for it.

Is the difficultly in recruiting evident? Are people not coming back because of full employment, effectively?

Ms Sandra Broderick

Retention and recruitment of home support workers are difficult. We are working with the Department on policy initiatives around trying to retain the staff we already have and attracting more people in by making it a viable career, where they can deliver more than just the activities of daily living to someone. It is about enhancing what those home support workers can do to try to see if we can put some sort of career path in place for those who work for us.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To add to that, and it is an important point, we are obviously coming very close the end of the year and to what is for us a very pressured position. I have said to chief officers that in the areas that employ home help directly, if panels of people they started to recruit before we introduced employment controls are in place, somebody is available to be hired, and that is directly linked to a discharge from hospital or a delayed transfer of care, we would look at that very compassionately and favourably. I expect that next year we will recruit home helps on a very significant scale. A different approach can be adopted to counting home help whole-time equivalents, as opposed to routine staff whole-time equivalents, because many of them are part time. I am trying to finalise a different way to approach that for next year.

I welcome our witnesses. There are two big issues that are the backdrop to the health service this year and next year. The first is funding. We had some discussions of that issue at the last couple of committee meetings at which Mr. Gloster has been present. The Secretary General of the Department was also present at the most recent meeting. The second issue is the recruitment pause or embargo, or whatever one wants to call it, and the impact that will have.

I will start with the budget for this year. We are coming towards the end of the year. Yesterday, the Government published the Supplementary Estimates. It is just shy of €1 billion for health, which is by far the biggest of any of the Departments. The last time Mr. Gloster was before the committee, he said the anticipated deficit for this year would be approximately €1.5 billion. He made a distinction between what he said was the cash deficit at the end of the year, which will possibly be up to €1.1 billion. However, if accruals are taken into account as well as money that is owed but might not be paid until the first quarter next year, that figure will be €1.5 billion.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is correct.

Has that figure changed?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, not fundamentally. It is between €1.4 billion and €1.5 billion. The accounts for the year will generally close in the early days of January. It could be about the middle of January before we get the exact number.

It has not changed.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It remains as I stated.

Okay. Let us say it is €1.5 billion and the revised Supplementary Estimate is for €1 billion. What happens to that difference of €500 million? Is that then a first charge on the accounts next year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To go back to the distinction I made between cash and income and expenditure accounting, and this is not to confuse the public or anybody else, yesterday's Supplementary Estimate, which is very welcome and for which I am very grateful, should more or less cash out the year. I do not believe cash will be a problem for us at the end of the year. What happens regarding the balance on the income and expenditure sheet, in the way Government accounting works and is stipulated, is that it goes onto the balance sheet next year as a first charge.

My point is, and not to confuse anybody, it is money owed. Approximately €400 million or €500 million will be owed and will have to be paid, but the HSE has not been funded for it.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is an annual-----

I understand that. I am saying it is coming from spend in 2023.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

It will potentially be €500 million that will be carried over into next year. Has the HSE been given new money for it?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No.

Okay. The first problem for next year is this €400 million or €500 million there will be. The last time Mr. Gloster was before the committee, and the Secretary General had the same view, he said the permanent baseline funding that was necessary even to stand still was €2 billion. I think the HSE got €700 million in the existing level of service, ELS, so there was a shortfall of €1.3 billion. If that is the case, the HSE will have a shortfall of €1.3 billion for next year or, as Mr. Gloster would put it, "short from the base", plus €500 million carried over. Is that a fair estimate of where we are?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is a fair estimate if we are talking about core funding, but next year there is, as the Deputy is aware-----

I know there is a one-off.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

-----once-off, non-core funding.

That is spread across a number of areas, as Mr. Gloster knows.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is spread across, yes.

It does not deal with the recurring charge. Of the €1 billion the HSE will get this year in the Revised Estimate, which Mr. Gloster said he is grateful for even though, in my view, it is massively short of what is needed, how much of that will be recurring next year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yesterday's Supplementary Estimate announcement is a supplement for this year and this year alone.

I know. How much of that will be recurring next year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

How much of the expenditure or the money?

The €1 billion.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Does the Deputy mean the expenditure or the money?

The expenditure.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The expenditure it is paying off this year will recur next year but the money itself is not a recurring amount.

I understand that. Essentially-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The majority of the €1.5 billion deficit I projected for the health service this year is recurring.

That will still be the case next year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Mr. Gloster said on RTÉ radio, a number of months ago at this stage, that the service plan, because everything that happens in healthcare revolves around the service plan, would have a built-in deficit. That obviously cannot be written into a service plan-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No.

-----as we would be talking about financial risks. Is it still the case, given everything Mr. Gloster said, that there will be a significant deficit again next year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It will be exceptionally challenging. The last piece I want to see when the final letter of determination comes, which I hope will be today or tomorrow, is exactly what the specifics are. There is no doubt it will be a very challenging year, however.

Okay. I accept that. I will move on to the recruitment embargo because that will have an impact on services towards the end of the year and as we go into next year in what I am sure will be a very busy period not just in emergency departments and hospitals but across all settings. I am looking at the second memo issued to HSE staff. It is interesting that the more we learn about the memo, and the more we engage with hospital managers and chief officers, exemptions are being given left, right and centre. As Mr. Gloster said, they will be compassionate when they look at it. I accept and welcome that but it strikes me this is all very chaotic. We have put a recruitment pause in place. It is very clear what the memo says, and I want to read back to Mr. Gloster what it says, but we are being told by Ministers that it means something else. There is confusion even in respect of the system, as the HSE has had to issue a number of clarifications as to what it means. How will it work as regards posts that were offered? The memo states that any posts that were made and not formally accepted will be withdrawn. Is that the case?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Will all posts that were offered and not accepted be withdrawn?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If they were not accepted.

Accepted does not mean that a contract is signed; it means the offer has been formally accepted in writing. At that point-----

I will stop Mr. Gloster there. The memo says "any offers made and not formally accepted, or where a contract has not issued should now be withdrawn".

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes. That is right.

That is not what we are being told by Ministers.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I genuinely can only speak for myself and the HSE. Where an offer of a job had been made but not formally accepted by the day of the memo, in other words, we had not received any written communication from the person that he or she intended to take it up and no contract was signed-----

It is clear from the memo that the only exemptions are consultant appointments, graduate nurses, midwives and doctors in formal approved training programmes. Is every other post subject to this pause?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Except those in disability services and if I decide, in common sense terms, to exercise compassionate discretion in a particular situation the memo does not provide for.

That is where some of the confusion will come from. I will deal with the-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have not exercised that discretion yet so I am not sure where there is confusion.

The memo says that the only exemptions are consultant appointments, graduate nurses, midwives and doctors.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is also an exemption for disability services.

Yes, and disability services. I spoke to chief officers who said that home support services are stretched, they cannot take a one-in, one-out approach and they cannot fill vacancies because of this embargo.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is right.

Mr. Gloster is now saying that could change.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No. I am saying now what I said to my chief officers two weeks ago, that is, if there is a particular situation where they had already interviewed, selected, checked the references of and had ready to go a home help provider in an area where we employ direct home helps and where the employment of that home help would be directly linked to discharging someone from hospital in the latter stage of the year, I would look at it compassionately. That is all.

Okay, so home support services are still formally part of the pause.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, as a general rule.

What about nurses who are abroad and want to come back to work in the public system? Can they do that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The majority of people who are abroad and wanted to come back have done so already.

What if they want to do so this year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If they want to, the likelihood is that they will be recruited at the start of next year.

I am asking about now.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

They would not be recruited today.

They cannot be recruited because of the pause.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is correct, unless they have been offered a job.

What about staff in mental health services?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The same applies.

They are also subject to the pause.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

How many posts have been removed from profile as a result of the two memos?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have an exact figure for how many posts were offered and not accepted, so I am somewhat blind on that.

Will Mr. Gloster give some sort of estimate?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Some posts are still coming on as a lot of contracts had been offered and commitments made. The system cumulatively expected some posts to come on next year, which will not now, but the 2,268 posts will, and those are welcome. The number the delivery system was expected to recruit in the next 18 months was probably somewhere in the region of 5,000.

They are gone from profile.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

They are paused. They are not going anywhere.

The pause means gone. I will come back to next year.

What was the net increase in staff in the HSE or what is the projected net increase for 2023?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The number of whole-time equivalent posts in December 2022 was 137,745. The number of whole-time equivalent posts in August was 142,468 and by September, the number had increased to 143,000-----

What is the net increase?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The net increase is from 137,000 to 143,000 between December and September.

It is 6,000 or 7,000.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

More are still to come on between now and-----

I welcome that, but this is my point. We were able to hire 6,000 or 7,000 additional staff into the health service in 2023, yet we are told the cap for next year is 2,200.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is right.

Is it fair to say that there are thousands of people we could recruit into the public system but we will not be able to do so because the funding will not be there to do it. In the past three years, there was substantial net growth in staff. We all accept and welcome that. However, is it not fair to say that next year will probably see a much lower increase than any of the previous years?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would have to go back over it but I would probably say "Yes". The 2,268 additional staff will be the lowest number, as against the highest increase in the past three years.

On the question of yesterday's Supplementary Estimate, when Mr. Gloster was here last, the Department was also present and the Department said that sometimes the Supplementary Estimate goes into the following year's base and sometimes it does not. Has that been clarified?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It has not been clarified beyond the announcement of the Supplementary Estimate yesterday, which is a once-off allocation for 2023, unless I hear otherwise.

Was it described as a once-off allocation?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

My understanding is that a Supplementary Estimate is always described as a once-off allocation. Then whether a subsequent decision is made to revise the Estimate is-----

My recollection is that we were told that, in recent years, on two occasions it went into the following year's base.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On some occasions in the past, it went into the following year's base but I have not received confirmation of that for this Estimate at this point.

That is a significant question to be clarified, is it not?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, it is.

There is potential for the Government to ease the pressures next year by taking the decision that the Supplementary Estimate will go into the base. Is that right?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Those Government decisions are made throughout the year. Based on the information I have at the moment, it is a once-off allocation and its purpose is to cash out the year.

Does Mr. Gloster have any idea when that decision is likely to be taken, if the Government is minded to put it into the base?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not, to be honest. I would not be involved in those discussions so I genuinely do not know.

Does anyone else who has experience of this in recent years have an idea?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No. The team would not know as those decisions are made by the Government at its discretion. There is no particular process.

Okay. I accept that is a question for the Government.

When Mr. Gloster decided not to continue with the practice of drawing up winter plans, he produced the urgent emergency care plan. It is an impressive plan. It includes key performance indicators, KPIs. Is the HSE reporting on performance? I could not find any performance reports.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

This week we are changing the TrolleyGAR report, which is limited. We get it three times a day, every day. We are changing it to fit the profile of the new plan. I hope to be able to start to publish information directly linked to the performance of the plan next week and to regularly do so.

What is the reason for the delay? The document is from July and it contains information about KPIs and daily and monthly reports, but none of those have been published yet. Is that the case?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We already collect all the data we need to manage the performance of the system against the plan but to articulate it in a transparent way for the public, we have to change the system to be a bit more agile and amenable, before we can report it in a timely fashion. We have all the information, however.

When will that information be released?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is regularly released in different formats, but I am trying to get it into one condensed format so people will be able to see the number of people on trolleys at 8 a.m. in emergency departments and the number of people of people on trolleys who are not in emergency departments - in other words, the house piece which is the subject of today's meeting, as the Deputy will be aware.

When will that be published?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I hope to be able to do so frequently from next week.

To go back to the question of the recruitment pause, from the way Mr. Gloster described it, I understand that the recruitment of anyone who has accepted an offer of a job in writing will proceed but the recruitment of others will not. That is random, is it not? Did Mr. Gloster take that approach for contractual reasons? It does not seem to make sense. Theoretically, there could be a high uptake in one area by chance and a low uptake in another because the offers were not made until recently. Will that skew the HSE's numbers?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, it has the potential to do that and there is a somewhat arbitrary basis to it, but the simple reality is that the system was funded for a net growth of approximately 6,100 staff and we will have exceeded that by the end of year. That falls where it falls unfortunately.

From next year on, it will be much different because every budget-holding place will have its own pay envelope that will not be cross-referenced with anybody else’s, so they will be able to work to their own. Some areas will do better than others in a pause situation like that. However, most budget-holding areas have exceeded their target this year.

I wish to talk about delayed discharges and what is happening in the home care area. Mr. Gloster spoke earlier about what is happening with regard to the HSE’s directly employed home care staff. However, we know that in many areas, particularly in the Dublin area, the staffing is all privatised. Earlier in the year, in the service plan, there was an allocation of 23.9 million hours. In midyear, that was reduced-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, adjusted to 22 million.

The HSE lost 1.9 million hours in relation to the privatised services. We are told that will not increase next year. Mr. Gloster spent some time telling us about how the demand for home care has grown substantially. How on earth can the reduction make any sense when the demand is growing? There is a knock-on impact on delayed discharges obviously but there is also a knock-on impact on people who have been approved for home care and have not been able to get it because of insufficient staff. In addition, now there is a pause. There is also a knock-on impact of that on frail people at home who end up in ED, particularly at the weekends. Is there any rationale for that kind of approach where there is a limit on home care hours?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would love to have an unlimited budget and scope for home care. I wish to clarify three or four points that are important. The target for this year was reduced but the actual delivery was not reduced because we were never reaching the target. That is not to say that is a justification.

The reason the HSE was not reaching the target was because the pay and conditions were so poor. The pay and conditions were improved but it is older people who are paying the price for that because the overall hours were cut.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If we hit the 22 million hours target, I will be delighted, because that will mean the pay adjustment in the rate has worked. We would then work on from there. That is the first thing.

Second, in agreement with the Department of Health in the final approach to the service plan, I am hoping we will be able to take a slightly different approach to how we count directly employed home health staff as distinct from the normal way we count all of the full-time staff because of their part-time nature and so on. I would much rather we revisit the available money for home support and how many hours that will buy us, and we can employ for those hours, as opposed to a WTE number. That is something we have to work through with the Department and the implications of it. The reality is we will not hit the 22 million target easily. However, if we do, then of course we will see what we can do to move beyond that.

I take the Deputy’s point. In any capped situation that affects the numbers of staff available, that does have an impact.

Okay, but there is a complete disconnect here. The demand is growing rapidly and the supply is reducing. Has this been taken up as a distinct issue with the Department?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The demand in everything we are doing is growing, and the available resource is the available resource. I have said this to the Deputy before. I know the employment control has been much criticised. I have listened to the narrative, not only having come into committees here but widely in the public domain, that the HSE is out of control and cannot manage its budget. I am simply managing to the best degree I can the budget I have available to me.

I am not making that criticism. I want to be clear about that: I am not making that criticism. I am saying this is a key area with a growing ageing population. There is a big demand for home care yet the number of hours are being cut not by the HSE but by Government decision.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The number of hours we are providing this year were not cut, rather, it was the target. What is the likely outturn this year? Some 21.9 million.

So the HSE is almost hitting the 22 million.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I would be delighted if we hit 22 million.

But there is a waiting list of 6,000.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are two waiting lists.

And the in-hospital waiting lists - the delayed discharge.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are two waiting lists. There is a waiting list for additional service, where people already have a service and need more, which is important, and there is the waiting list for those new to the service.

Can Mr. Gloster make just one comment on the question of weekend discharges before my time is up? Is the HSE making progress on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Is the HSE yet seeing the benefit of the new contract?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The benefit of the new contract is probably harder to quantify at the moment. On weekend discharge, I refer to the winter period and the seasonal influenza period. I made specific provisions for the October bank holiday weekend and we saw record discharges that prevented us from having a disastrous situation the following Tuesday. That is not to say the situation the following Tuesday was acceptable, but it was much better. We have managed to do that now for quite a number of weekends. We are seeing improvement but it is a sustained effort and it will be right over the winter.

I am trying to get a sense of some of the resources mentioned in Mr. Gloster’s opening statement. I do not know if he has all the numbers in front of him. I will throw a few questions out on that issue.

Our meeting in June was one of the first we had when Mr. Gloster was appointed. We talked a little bit about the community healthcare networks, CHNs, and the community specialist teams, CSTs. At the time, 94 of 96 of the CHNs were operational and 47 of 60 of the CSTs. Could we have an update on how many are currently operating and what the staffing levels are like?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will come back to the Deputy on that in a second.

I have the same question on the community intervention teams, CITs. There were 21 in June. Where are we with those?

I would be interested, perhaps selfishly, in something that comes up on the doors a bit about medical cards. We had some numbers in June on the number of medical cards currently issued. If we had those numbers, it would be useful. Sorry, I am throwing many questions at Mr. Gloster.

I have a broader question. We talked a little bit, I think it was in the first contribution, about staff vaccination programmes. Where are we in this regard? We talked a little, with the sepsis session last week, about the more public-focused vaccination programmes both for children and adults, the availability of those programmes and the uptake.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the enhanced community care changes, of the 96 community healthcare networks, we currently have 94. Of the 30 community support teams for older people, called ICPOP, we have 23. Of the 30 community specialist teams for chronic disease, we have 24. Of the 3,500 approved WTE for that programme, we have 2,875 in place, which is about 78%. The projected end-of-year position is likely to be quite similar. Obviously, the pause-----

Sorry, Mr. Gloster, I wish to clarify that with regard to the numbers provided in June, no new CHNs or CSTs have opened since.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No. They are at the same number.

I do not have the number of CITs to hand but I will get it for the Deputy. I can tell her we are at 46,000 CIT referrals this year. They are working well, and extremely well in some places.

On the medical cards, I will get the number for the Deputy. There has been quite a shift with the introduction of enhanced eligibility, GP visit cards and so on. I might have that for her by the end of the meeting but if I do not, I will have it for her later today.

I asked a broader question on the public-focused vaccination programmes and the uptake.

Dr. Colm Henry

The earlier question was on healthcare workers. On the broader issue of the population, we see greater enthusiasm for the influenza vaccine than the Covid-19 vaccine. The autumn booster campaign, which is focused on those over 50 years of age and those between five and 50 with underlying conditions or immunosuppression and healthcare workers, has not met with the same degree of enthusiasm previous booster programmes have. That is a phenomenon not just noticed in Ireland but in other countries too. We saw extraordinarily high levels of uptake, if the Deputy recalls, with the primary, with 94% of the eligible adult population. We are now seeing much lower numbers there. The healthcare workers-----

Dr. Henry said lower numbers than 94%. Do we know an indicative lower number?

Dr. Colm Henry

Yes, I have that information. The overall uptake of the Covid-19 vaccine in the 50+ age group is 28% but there is a differential, as we have seen throughout the vaccine programme, for those aged over 70. About half of those people have taken it up. It is important to bear in mind that for three months after an infection, people are advised not to take the vaccine. For those aged between 50 and 69, the take-up is 18%. Most worrying, only one in ten of those who have immunosuppression and are eligible are taking up the vaccine.

I accept Dr. Henry's point about the three months and I know that people are still getting Covid-19 but that would also have been the case last year. Has there been a similar spend this year on the communication campaign, in comparison to last year?

Dr. Colm Henry

I cannot answer on the spend but we have had a very co-ordinated campaign involving healthcare professionals and public health experts. Our campaign is ongoing and is visible in the media all of the time. We are encouraging vulnerable groups in particular but our message has not been just for vulnerable groups but also about the responsibility we all have as citizens, being only one contact away from somebody else who is vulnerable. Our messaging has been consistent from the beginning of the pandemic but perhaps people do not perceive Covid as being as much of a risk to themselves, personally, as they did at the earlier stage of previous booster programmes.

Would the numbers be similar for lower age groups? We talked about the 50+ group-----

Dr. Colm Henry

I have given the Deputy the numbers for the 50+ group. For those with chronic disease or immunosuppression-----

The number there is 18%. Is that right?

Dr. Colm Henry

It is 18% for those aged between 50 and 69. For those below 50, the eligible groups are those who have underlying chronic disease or immunosuppression. Only about one in ten of those with immunosuppression who are eligible have taken up the vaccine.

One in ten is a very low rate.

Dr. Colm Henry

Yes, it is.

Is there remedial work we can do on that in the vaccination programmes?

Dr. Colm Henry

This week, if the Deputy was listening to the airwaves, she would have heard many of us trying to remind people of the importance of this. Covid has not gone away as a threat, especially to people whose immune system cannot muster up the immunological response the rest of us can muster to give us protection. We are constantly renewing that message but perhaps people do not perceive it as being as much of a risk. It is true, of course, that the Omicron variant that we have been living with now since the winter of 2021 has a lower conversion rate to serious illness than the Alpha and Delta variants but nevertheless, we are still seeing people come to hospital. Those who are unvaccinated, that is, those with no primary vaccine, remain disproportionately represented among those who are hospitalised with Covid and those who enter intensive care.

I want to move to a slightly different area now, namely the access to diagnostics programme and the role it will play in the push to keep people out of secondary care.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are two parts to this. We have the GP access to diagnostics, which has been quite successful. The only complaint I have heard about it is about making sure we keep it going. We also now have access to mobile diagnostics for the nursing home sector, which has proven to be a particular success.

Do we have numbers on this? Can Mr. Gloster unpack the programme for me? How much of it is private provision? Are aspects of the programme provided by private companies?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In terms of access to diagnostics, yes, a significant portion of it is private provision.

If it were possible to get numbers on that, it would be incredibly useful. It is a hugely important resource for GPs but I would like to understand how it is interacting with the public provision versus the private provision.

Finally, and this may be linked to the embargo, earlier this year we had a discussion on a reduction of the reliance on management consultancy by the HSE. This is also related to some of the funding discussions that we have been having. Mr. Gloster had a target of significantly reducing that reliance. Can we have an update on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The target was to reduce it by 30% in quarter 4 versus quarter 1, to have it as real as possible to the current expenditure. As a segue into that, I required a 10% reduction in September, which was more or less achieved. I am told that I will not be disappointed at the end of quarter 4 in terms of the 30% target. In any event, that reduction is going to stay and continue. We will use consultancy in the future, there is no doubt about that, but we will use it in a very specific, defined way. What we are taking out is the dependency on it that developed to a level beyond what I consider to be acceptable.

The idea that it was the default option-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, exactly. I consider that totally unacceptable but the 30% reduction has been roundly heard and is being implemented.

On that 10% reduction in September, is it possible to get an actual figure on that? Has Mr. Gloster a sense of what that represents in terms of a monetary figure?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

If I was to round it, we are talking about €112 million in the year, so divide that by 12 and then take 10%.

Senator Conway is next.

Mr. Gloster and his team are very welcome here this morning. It will come as no surprise to them that I will use my time this morning to talk about the mid-west and specifically about UHL. Last year, before Mr. Gloster's time, a major incident was declared at UHL on 2 January. It was a particularly frightening experience for many vulnerable people in the Clare, Limerick and Tipperary area. Since we are discussing winter readiness, I would like to hear specifics on the plans for UHL and how we are going to avoid a similar situation arising next January. Is Mr. Gloster confident that this time around we will not be in a situation where we have to declare a major incident? I would like to hear specifics on additional funding and additional capacity through the winter programme. What has been retained in the region from private providers? Perhaps Mr. Gloster could provide details on that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is a number of parts to it. It will come as no surprise to Senator Conway to hear me say publicly, as I do privately, that I share his concern about Limerick and about the experience for people in the mid-west. I live there and have worked there so the level of concern is not lost on me. I understand it quite intimately. I am concerned about UHL, of course, because it is under pressure and will remain under sustained pressure. However, there are a couple of positive things that are helping. The first is that the DTOC position is probably the best in the country, in terms of keeping patient flow to the absolute maximum. That is shared between the hospital and the community healthcare organisation there and I intend for that to continue. That is the first thing, the first step in making sure capacity is available. The second thing is that Limerick has had very significant investment this year and last year in terms of staffing and in terms of additional focus on expertise to manage, to the best degree possible, the whole patient flow from the time somebody turns up at the door. That will all continue and is in place so regardless of any recruitment pauses, Limerick has done well in that regard. On the third thing, I want to be very clear that I do not want to commit the regulator to a position because that is not my job and it would not be appropriate, but the regulator visited unannounced as recently as yesterday. My understanding - again, I want to be very clear that I am not committing the regulator to a position and I will own this - is that the feedback in relation to the management of concern and risk would certainly be encouraging. I will leave it at that because I do not want to stray into the space. HIQA can comment further on it.

Was there an unannounced visit by HIQA to UHL yesterday?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, and I welcome that. I welcome that in any service that I manage because the independence of regulation in the public interest is extremely importance. That said, I do not want to commit the regulator. I am interested in what my assurances are. There are issues with Limerick that are not understood well. Limerick has surge capacity within the hospital. It has a trolley problem and a trolley up the house problem and I intend to continue to be as honest about those figures as is needed.

We also have surge capacity, which is sometimes counted as trolleys but actually is quite appropriate to the care that needs to be provided. I have gone into the hospital. I have walked the floor of that hospital a couple of times this year already. I go in there quite regularly. One of the points I was making to Deputy Shortall is that I intend to demonstrate next week, when I publish figures, the exact position for the public. There will be no dressing it up or dressing it down. Sometimes we can see figures that almost catastrophise a position, and I do not think that is fair or in the public interest.

For Limerick this year, the same as every hospital group, including Christmas Day, I will be working. My management team will be working, and hospital management teams will be working to fully support every part of the system. The last part that I have great hope for is in the context of approaching the mid-west this year. It does not have a lot of private capacity, as the Senator knows. There are hospitals being built, which is welcome. However, the last part I have hope for this year is that we will do even more with regard to the public and community response with GPs' out-of-hours access to diagnostics. The community intervention team in Limerick is probably one of the best performing in the country. It is a multidisciplinary team that operates seven days a week. All of that is being ramped to the maximum degree. I spent eight hours on the road with the ambulance service in the mid-west recently, out on calls with them, to see exactly what the process is like from start to finish. There is a lot we can do to support Limerick, and it will be under pressure but I certainly will not be behind the door talking to people about that.

I know Mr. Gloster does not have a magic wand but would he be hopeful that there will not be a major incident declared during the course of the winter at Limerick?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In the course of my work, one would always be very reticent to give those kinds of commitments because anything can happen at any time. What I would say to the Senator is that based on everything that is known to me today, and based on the processes that I have introduced since I came last March, and based on the weekend focus, I think it is getting all the focus it would get whether one calls it a crisis, an incident or anything else, so I do not envisage that.

On the recruitment ban, Mr. Gloster has said that he will use his common sense when there is a case made. On the specifics of UHL, could we assume then that the recruitment ban will not apply to UHL, given the very challenging environment it is operating in?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, we could not assume that, to be fair. It is a fair pitch, and I admire it. I spend a lot of time in committee with Members of the House on my 29 blue-light hospitals. To be fair, I will say that between core staff, agency staff, overtime and additional measures, Limerick has done fairly well, so no, it would not be exempt.

There is a side of Limerick that is not seen, the other access story, and that is on the scheduled care waiting list. Limerick is the best performing hospital in the country with regard to managing waiting lists this year for people accessing care.

It is very important that the positives are highlighted as well as the negatives, and I fully support Mr. Gloster on that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Absolutely. There are fantastic people working in that hospital and I intend to make sure they are fully supported.

I have a final question at this point. Mr. Gloster talked before about the INMO figures versus the HSE figures. It would be far more preferable if there could be agreement between the INMO and the HSE regarding a methodology for bed counting. Does Mr. Gloster have any intention of re-engaging with the INMO to try to come up with protocols for bed counting, so that at least everyone is on the one page when it comes to the numbers?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

As I said to the Senator, I certainly intend to demonstrate visibly and in real time four figures: EDs and trolley EDs at 8 o'clock, trolleys up the house, people in surge, and DTOC. I hope that the combination of those first three will come to the same figure as that of the INMO, and of course we would have a discussion with them about it. This is not about a "them and us" kind of thing.

I know that but it is far better when there is clarity and agreement.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes but one will find that there are disagreements from time to time. The issue for me, fundamentally, is not so much the disagreement on the numbers. The issue for me is that there are people on trolleys, and they are old and frail people who need to be cared for and looked after. They do not just need clinical care; they need compassion and kindness. Fellows like me getting well paid to be fighting about numbers is not any good to them, so my focus is on them.

I thank Mr. Gloster.

I welcome our guests and thank them for the job they are doing in very challenging times. I want to follow up on a couple of things that have already been mentioned. The overrun of expenditure affecting the health budget this year, as compared with other years, seems to be significantly higher. Is that true?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am sorry, but what does the Deputy mean by "the overrun"?

I am referring to the budgetary overrun, like the make-up of the €1.1 billion or €1.3 billion, or whatever it is. How does it compare with each of the years over the last five or ten years?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The previous three years are distorted because of the Covid-19 pandemic. There was a lot of money invested in the Covid-19 response, and there were a lot of services deferred, cancelled or stood down, so it is very hard to compare that to previous years. To be fair to the Government, the budget is much higher now. As a percentage of the total budget deficit, yes, it is on the higher side this year, there is no doubt.

By how much, percentage wise?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am going to say to the Deputy that particularly because of the inflation part, it is probably higher by a factor of roughly 10%. I would need to check that because one has to measure it against the budgets from previous years.

On this subject, it was put to me recently by an outsider that the level of the shortfall this year was an attempt by the health services to grab a greater slice of the budget at a time when there were many challenges. I did not agree with him, and it was a "him". I am not saying where he is or was at the time but he put it to me that we were attempting to increase the budget by magnifying the shortfall, and that when compared with previous years - he mentioned ten or 15 years - there was always a shortfall in the health services budget. Could Mr. Gloster comment on that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, there have been shortfalls and supplementaries of varying types to varying degrees for many years in the health service. That is true and I think everybody knows that. Unfortunately, from the perspective of this year and coming into this job, the narrative that the health service cannot manage its resources - that it is a waste, out of control and so on - has certainly increased this year. The narrative has increased, whatever about the deficit.

The one thing I would say to the Deputy, and I would say it without fear of contradiction, is that the public purse is an extremely important thing. If anyone believes that a senior public servant like me would stand over a gaming position just to get more money for the sake of it, or that I would wind up a deficit to try to get attention and more money, I would reject that out of hand completely. The Government, to be fair, makes a decision on investing in public services. My job is to give effect to the policy of the Government of the day, and I do that to the best of my ability. What I have said to everybody is that I will control the budget for the part that is in my control. I am probably the only public servant I know who has hired more people than I am funded to do, and when I pause recruitment I get criticised for it. If I do not pause it, I get criticised for it. Certainly, I can tell the Deputy that any articulation of the deficit by me or by the board of the HSE is not about gaming for money.

The point he was making was that the recruitment pause comes at a time when it was the biggest budget ever, and during a period during which staffing levels throughout the health services had been increased far and away beyond everything that had preceded it.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Absolutely. It was unprecedented growth.

He was claiming criticism for the way in which it was done and whether it was done to show up the fact that the health services were not necessarily an employment agency but were given the task or job of providing a health service that anticipated everything. That is the end of him.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am very happy to meet him, whoever he is, and have a chat with him.

Mr. Gloster might be surprised.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I might have met him already.

Mr. Gloster has not, actually.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In all sincerity, I believe the recent comments by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, my line Minister and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, have been unequivocally clear. The health service is funded to a very significant amount of money. Within that, it has a certain amount of money for a certain number of people to be paid. The criticism, rightly, is that whatever about needing to go above that number, we cannot go above it when we do not have the money. The recruitment pause by me this year might have been linked to being in the same cycle as the budget announcement, but it is also linked to the fact that I am only just in the job. I signalled very clearly my intention when I came to exercise my duties responsibly to control the part of the budget I could but to also point out what I cannot control, namely, inflation and demand. I cannot control those. I have a responsibility to respond to people in that context and to be transparent. I do not think anyone in this committee would disagree that I have only been upfront with everybody about the position I am managing.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will continue to manage that position and with the support of the Minister, I think we will manage it very well.

Another issue, which I have raised in the past, is overcrowding at accident and emergency departments. This is a major part of the health services that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. Has the number of staff on duty at any particular time been examined to find out whether there are enough doctors, nurses and other relevant people who need to be called upon in those situations on duty? I had first-hand experience of at least four public hospitals in recent times and I was not impressed with what I saw. There is a need now to ensure that those who find themselves in accident and emergency departments have a reasonable chance of triage, in the first instance, in the shortest possible time. I heard suggestions that patients were triaged when they were not; they were partially triaged. They had their blood pressure taken and possibly had an electrocardiogram, ECG, or whatever done, but there is a lot more to triage than that. That is urgent. I have experiences of patients who were in pain and really suffering having to wait while others, who they did not view as being in as great a need as they were, did not have to wait. They may be wrong about that, of course. How does Mr. Gloster respond to that? What is being done about it?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will allow my two clinical colleagues, who are experienced practitioners in the acute hospitals, to address the triage question. I was very clear when I appeared previously at the committee. I agree with the Deputy that there are times of the evening and times of the week when we do not have the distribution of staff we could and should have to make the service flow better over the course of seven days. I am continuing to pursue that and we have made some progress on it. Unfortunately, because of the recruitment pause, I am currently facing work to rule. My understanding is that one of the unions is going to escalate that action very shortly. That will interfere with the plans to introduce any significant change for the short term. I am still hopeful we will do it, however. We have done a fair bit of it.

On the triage question, Dr. Henry might give the Deputy a flavour of how that works.

Dr. Colm Henry

Overcrowding in emergency departments, as the Deputy is aware, is a whole system problem, largely comprised of people who are awaiting admission. Overcrowding and the long waits impact on their care and safety and the care and safety of people who are coming in.

I will interrupt Dr. Henry for a second. In actual fact, it is people awaiting diagnosis whom I am most concerned about. People who have not been diagnosed do not know where to go next or where they should go. It should not be that way. It should be possible, after four, five, ten or whatever number of hours waiting, to find out what the patient is suffering from.

Dr. Colm Henry

Patients who come into emergency departments are triaged according to an established Manchester triage score and according to immediate, urgent need, which is category 1. Category 2 is where the patient needs to be seen within 15 or 20 minutes. Then, there is category 3 and so on. What we find with increasing demographic pressures is that more and more people coming in year after year are getting older and clearly have more urgent need as well.

Notwithstanding the safety implications of overcrowding, there are triage systems in place that generally operate to a good standard and allocate people to a triage category when they come in. If somebody, for example, is categorised as triage 1 and needs urgent, immediate resuscitation, that person will be diverted to the resuscitation room and the appropriate teams. Patients in category 2 are labelled as being of high importance to the staff. Where this system comes under threat, and Ms Day may want to elaborate on this, is where there is overcrowding and the teams in emergency departments experience demands on their care that are greater than their ability to deliver care in a timely way. That is why last winter and this winter we will have escalation plans in place to call teams down from the house, if needs be, to ensure that those who are triaged at the higher, more urgent category are seen in a timely way.

Ms Day may wish to add to that.

Ms Mary Day

Dr. Henry has gone through the Manchester triage system. Additional supports have been put into emergency departments compared with this time last year. There are an additional 71 ED consultants and registrars. As part of the safe staffing phase 2, an additional 80 staff nurses have gone in to support the staffing level across the emergency departments. The other area is looking at injury units where there are alternative pathways to take some of that pressure off the emergency departments.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will address Deputy Durkan's question on the percentage of the budget that was supplemented. To be fair, that is a very good question and I will assist him with it. That figure was 1.7% in 2013; 5.2% in 2014; 5.2% in 2015; and 1.3% in 2017. The point I am making is that it is variable. It was 6.3% in 2022. However, I would take that figure with an element of caution because of Covid expenditure, and disability was also in the profile. I imagine it will be lower than that this year, probably about 5% or thereabouts by the time we finish it.

I thank Mr. Gloster.

I thank the witnesses very much for the presentation. I will start with some figures provided by the Secretary General of the Department of Health the previous time he appeared before the committee. He said there had been a 36% increase in hospital staff in recent years but that the number of patients going through hospitals had only increased by between 10% and 20% - the figure varies from hospital to hospital. Do those figures add up in real terms? I fully understand that a hospital may be restricted, for instance, in that it may not have the infrastructure to deal with increased numbers. However, the Secretary General raised the issue of a 36% increase in staff. Mr. Gloster might remember that we have gone from 103,000 whole-time equivalents in December 2014. The last figure I got was 143,000 whole-time equivalents, which is an increase of 40%. What is Mr. Gloster's view on the Secretary General's comment that there has been an increase of only 10% in the turnover of patients in real terms? That refers to procedures and attendance.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The Secretary General's observation is pointed and accurate. One of the things we have agreed with the Minister, going into the start of January, is that apart from next year's service plan, which will do whatever it will do, I am establishing a very small productivity unit to look at what exactly the opportunities are for us to get better productivity out of the resource we have and what those opportunities are to inform the structure of health service funding for the next three to four years. There is a question there to be asked and answered. I do not know what the answer is. There would not always be a direct correlation between the number of staff and number of patients going through. For example, some of those new staff in hospitals would be associated with new methodologies or new ways of doing treatments like cancer treatments or surgeries. A stroke programme, for example, would-----

There is a big difference between a 36% increase and a 10% increase.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There is a big difference and I am accepting that.

I will move on to efficiencies.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

I was contacted by a consultant, not one from the south and south-west area, who only performs operations on a half day per week basis.

The consultant's operating time is after lunch once per week. The consultant tries to do three operations but has been advised by staff that, if a patient is not in theatre by 4 p.m., the patient will not be allowed in. Surely there is a need for restructuring in that scenario. I accept that people want to get away at 5 p.m., but surely a restructuring could be done so that there would be staff on from 8 a.m. until 2 p.m., for example, and other staff on from 2 p.m. until 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. In day care procedures, people come in who need to go to theatre, yet we are not using the capacity within the hospitals adequately. Does this not need to be reviewed?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It does, and it is one of many places where the productivity question genuinely has to be answered. We have to go after that detail. Despite how hard people work, I do not believe we can ever sit back and say we are getting the best out of the infrastructure or the workforce.

As a result of raising a certain issue, I received an email from a nurse in a particular hospital – again, not in the South/South West Hospital Group area – who complained that, on Sundays and bank holidays, there were three nurse managers in the hospital while there were other days of the week when there was none. I raised the issue because someone who had worked in CUH but was now working in the UK could not understand why the ratio of nurse managers and senior staff to junior staff in CUH was disproportionate, depending on the day. This person has found that, in the UK, there is a set ratio of senior people to junior people no matter what day of the week it is. What are we doing to address this issue?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The Deputy is making my argument for me. It should be a set number. There will be disputes about the number, but there are ways to distribute what we have across the seven days of the week.

How can there be disputes? Would a set number not be far more adequate from everyone’s point of view? It would be better for staff members if the proportion of senior people on duty was the same every day, as that would provide the maximum level of assistance to the junior staff.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are two beliefs at present. One belief is that everyone is working at full tilt from Monday to Friday, whoever is there needs to be there and, if we redistribute some of that time to the weekend, it will reduce the capability during the week. I do not accept that that is necessarily the case. Whether it is-----

Maternity services are not a five-day-per-week service. Babies do not only arrive between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. from Monday to Friday. Maternity services have the same ratio regardless of what day of the week it is.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We are in violent agreement with each other.

What are we doing about it? Set numbers are already in place in the maternity services. In the 19 maternity hospitals across the country, there is a set number of staff every day of the week because maternity services are seven-day-per-week services. Why can we not introduce set numbers in-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I appeared before the committee in March and put forward my assessment of the service by June or July. We have already submitted our request to a number of unions to have discussions and engagement around moving to a seven-day service and making that option available to people. I have supplied three options to reach that point. I hope that co-operation with this reform will feature in any new public sector pay agreement, which remains to be dealt with. I do not believe the unions will criticise me for saying this, as they have been public in their positions, but they are all at different stages of their relationships with us because of the recruitment pause and other issues. However, I hope we will move to this position. It is one of the productivity pieces I am going after. I agree with the Deputy.

Regarding the health service generally, does Mr. Gloster not believe to some extent that some of the processes have become box-ticking exercises and are not necessarily hands on in trying to get more efficiency?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Maybe I am being subjective and the Deputy will say that of course I would say this, but I do not believe I am ticking boxes anyway. As I told the committee, I as CEO want to get closer to driving the integration of services between communities and hospitals, driving efficiencies and getting the best possible outcomes for service users and patients. I am in the middle of appointing six regional officers who will report directly to me. I am taking three layers out of the system between me and the front line. I am driving towards that position, but it takes time.

I wish to raise two further issues. I believe St. Vincent’s University Hospital in Dublin rolled out a team that would visit nursing homes-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

EDITH, or emergency department in the home.

-----to ensure people could be looked after there. Has that been rolled out across the country yet? At what stage is it?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not want to commit the Minister before the letter of determination, but he, the Secretary General and I have agreed in principle that, even within the limited additional funding for next year, provision will be made to increase the EDITH service. It will not be available everywhere, and there are different versions of it in areas. Limerick has-----

It makes the HSE a large saving-----

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

-----by having a team that can assess someone in a nursing home, with that person staying in the nursing home instead of being brought to an accident and emergency unit.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Ms Broderick might be able to tell the committee what we have done this year to improve nursing home services.

Ms Sandra Broderick

We have developed a new model of care in terms of supporting residents in long-term care facilities. We know from data from previous years that there are many people who become quite unwell in our nursing homes and that the de facto position is to convey them to our very busy EDs. Predominantly, these people are over 75 years of age and very frail.

We set about looking at our integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, teams, which have largely been successful in the prevention agenda around managing older people in the community. We have been working with our national clinical advisers and group leads, NCAGLs, and consulting geriatricians on rolling some of that out to people who reside in nursing homes. We have also introduced a measure whereby the access someone living in a public or private nursing home has to the aids and appliances the HSE provides is equal to that of anyone living in his or her own home. We are trying to wrap nursing homes into the overall health service support mechanisms, which is important. We also have mobile diagnostics so that, if someone has a trip or fall in a nursing home, we do not have to convey him or her from that nursing home to the ED. A mobile X-ray machine will go out to the home. Collectively, these measures have reduced by almost 50% the number of people who have to leave nursing homes and go to EDs. This is important to their quality of life.

In terms of going forward, what we are asking for is that we continue to wrap services around these people. This means advance care planning with the elderly population in residential care facilities, which will be important.

The final piece of this has to do with giving our community health networks primary care services, where appropriate to do so, that are in line with those available to anyone living in his or her own home.

Regarding transfers from nursing homes, there was a sad inquest in Cork recently into someone in a nursing home who had swallowed false teeth, was admitted to hospital, was there for three days and was not examined until the third or fourth day, by which point the person had developed an infection. That person was transferred back to the nursing home to die. If the person had not been transferred to hospital and a team had instead gone out to the nursing home, that person could have been saved. It is a sad example of where a transfer to a hospital did not work. If the person had been in the nursing home and a team had gone out, the team would probably have identified what the issue was.

Ms Sandra Broderick

That is what we want to do. We want to keep as many of these people in their own houses – the residential care facilities – as we can.

Where are we with new health centres? How many have we delivered over the past ten years and how many are at planning or building stage?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have the estates numbers to hand, but we are continuing to offer lease options for new primary care centres. Some of them have failed to take off because of construction inflation or because the developers who were awarded the contracts have been unable to fulfil them. We are putting some of those projects back out to tender. I do not have the exact number with me.

Can we get the figures?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Absolutely. I will get the committee a full briefing on primary care centres.

I thank Mr. Gloster.

We will move on to Deputy Wynne. She is welcome to the committee.

I thank the committee for allowing me time to address the witnesses. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their opening statements and for taking our questions.

From what has been said so far about the embargo and the information that has been outlined here this morning, as has been mentioned, it does seem quite arbitrary and ambiguous. I am grateful for the further clarification from Mr. Gloster. Government TDs who have spoken on this matter have demonstrated a lack of consistency. They falsely reassured Opposition TDs that all jobs offered would be safe. That is not the case from what Mr. Gloster said. He mentioned that he would not have the number of positions that have been withdrawn by way of no formal acceptance being received. To turn the question, does he have the number of positions that have been formally accepted and therefore would be safe?

Staff vacancies and absences are a prominent issue in UHL. For context, looking at the performance report from October to December of last year, which is where we are now moving into the winter, it shows the percentage of absences in UHL was 6.5%, which was the highest in the country. When we look back further during the Covid period, again we were the highest in the country for the rate of Covid at 2.5%. The most recent response to a parliamentary question that I could find shows that there was a level of vacancy in the emergency department in UHL for nursing and midwifery of 47.67. I know a Senator has already asked the question of whether a compassionate decision might come into play when it comes to the level of vacancy for nurses and midwives in the emergency department in UHL given the high number. Mr. Gloster referred to the additional staffing in emergency departments nationally but does he have a further breakdown for UHL to give more of an overview of the staffing that has been brought in this year?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will come back specifically to the UHL figures. I will get the breakdown of the detail for Deputy Wynne. If we do not even go back a year, but we go back to last Christmas, in terms of the overall nursing and midwifery workforce in the HSE, there were 43,619 whole-time equivalents and by September of this year that had gone up to 45,000. That is a significant growth. It is a very large growth. There are always going to be vacancies in any system of this size. That is never going to let out. What the Deputy would not necessarily see in the performance report or in the response to a parliamentary question is that when a hospital might say it has a vacancy of 44.6 WTEs in its emergency department, it is not then reflecting the number of agency staff and amount of overtime it is using to supplement. It is not that 46 people are missing off the floor. I have no doubt there are some vacancies, so I do not want to be in any way disparaging to people in individual hospitals. Absenteeism in the Irish health service is a very variable quantum. We used to have an industry average one time of 3.5%. I do not think we ever got there. Probably 4.5% would be a more acceptable position. I think generally we are in the 6% territory. There are lots of factors to do with absenteeism. I have no doubt that some of them are work related. It is a very difficult and pressured system to work in and the exposure rates are high.

I want to go back to an earlier piece. Maybe I will become a victim of my own words. I do not want to say that I am not going to be compassionate to Limerick or anywhere else. Limerick has the same challenges as Cork University Hospital or Galway, in different ways. The particular compassionate piece I was talking about was an older person leaving hospital where there was a home help ready to help them. That is the direct connection. Limerick will not be exempted from the recruitment policy no more than anywhere else between now and Christmas. That will not be the case.

Okay. Could Mr. Gloster reply in respect of the job offers?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I am taking this in very round terms. If I take the position that this year we will recruit thousands of people, because we replace people all the time, but the net additional growth was planned to be about 6,100, which is what we were budgeted for and targeting, by about September we already had about 5,400 of those in place, with contractual commitments and all of the graduate nurses ready to come on that were going to take us over the 6,100. We are certainly talking about a minimum of 700 to 800 offers that had been accepted and possibly more. I would not be surprised if we breached 6,100 by a figure and I am just waiting to see what that is. The difference between 5,300 and what we finish up with at the end of the year will be the offers that were in place and accepted.

I thank Mr. Gloster for that. It makes a lot more sense now. I appreciate that.

A lot of pieces of information that Mr. Gloster provided to other members is quite positive. It is important to mention that hospital settings are a high pressured environment, especially UHL, without having a model 3 hospital in the region as well to support it. The work is tense, extreme and high pressured at times. The staff do fantastic work. I commend all the staff in UHL on the work they do.

It has been refreshing to hear from Mr. Gloster that he has, for example, gone out for eight hours on call with ambulances. That is exactly the kind of hands-on approach that is needed and is important from the top down in the HSE. It is also an important development to hear about the management team working on Christmas Day.

I want to get clarification in respect of whether the embargo will affect plans that were previously mentioned in a number of areas. One was the expansion of the local injury units, LIUs, and the medical assessment units, MAUs. There was mention of an injury unit, IU, review in the urgent and emergency care, UEC, actions published this year. The Government committed to it also after a motion was brought to the floor of the House. Can expansions still occur and what would they look like? Are we aiming for it to be until 10 p.m., 12 p.m. or are we going for 24 hours? I know from a UHL briefing that it was saying that 24 hours may not be achievable but it would be to midnight.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the LIU's, Deputy Wynne's question is very timely, I am scheduled to meet the Minister tomorrow to discuss unscheduled care both for the lead into the end of the year and into next year. One of the things he has specifically asked for is the current map of the LIUs, the hours they are open, the staffing levels they have and what they are doing in terms of the range of patients they are seeing, and what we are doing to advise the public that that option is there for them. I think we will have a very focused discussion on that tomorrow. Within next year's funding, the Minister has made funding available for urgent emergency care adaptations and additions. To be fair to him, I am sure he and I would both like that to be more, but it still is welcome that there is an addition. We will see within that how much is available for the LIU. I would expect to know that in the next two or three weeks. The one thing I will say is that I do not favour just simply saying all LIUs will be open 13 hours a day and they will all have X staff. Equally, I would want to see that they are being used and to the best degree possible. They are an improving phenomenon. As people become comfortable with them they are opting to use them more but there is a lot yet to be exploited positively in that.

Deputy Wynne and I have discussed Ennis. Where you have a model 4 hospital with no model 3, if you really want it to function well you have to support it with things like that. Recently in Limerick we introduced a service onto the road. We have a service around the country called Pathfinder, which is a particular part of the Ambulance Service again targeted at older and frail people, but we have gone a step up in Limerick now and we have introduced the Alternative pre-hospital pathway, APP car, which is like the emergency department in the home, EDITH, in St. Vincent's Hospital, it is actually a registrar doctor and an advanced paramedic on the road. The National Emergency Operation Centre, NEOC, and the Ambulance Service can deploy those two people out to calls. All of those things, added to LIUs, are what make the difference.

I thank Mr. Gloster.

Dr. Colm Henry

I will comment briefly on local injury units. We have a decade of experience now with them. About 80% of people registering for care in emergency departments do so between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.

A small number of people register outside of that timeframe with minor injuries. We would hope that they would wait until the following morning, if they are able to do so. The great majority of patients in the target group for LIUs present during the day. One of the potential options for those outside of those times is to wait until the following morning. Patients presenting later at night tend to have more complicated problems in a general way than those problems catered for by LIUs. The opening hours reflect the referral and registration patterns of patients who are appropriate for LIUs.

I thank Dr. Henry.

We will now break for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.23 a.m.

I welcome the opening statement, particularly the commitment to prioritise older and frail people as most urgent users of the service, including the emergency departments. The committee supports that approach.

I also want to thank staff in the HSE and funded agencies who participate in the response to unscheduled and emergency care pressures and the challenges in that regard.

The slow uptake of the Covid and flu vaccines was mentioned. Dr. Henry mentioned that one in ten people has immunosuppression issues. What are the categories for people who are immunosuppressed and what is your sense as to why people are not taking the vaccines? I am not specifically referring to immunosuppressed people. Some members of the general public have told me they felt that the two vaccines at the same time produce too many side effects.

If people want to, they can get the flu vaccine and then they can get the Covid vaccine. We have gone from a situation where people were complaining that they wanted to get the vaccines, particularly staff and those who are immunosuppressed and other vulnerable categories. Is the low uptake down to vaccine denial or is it that people now feel the illness is less serious, in particular with the Omicron variant which many people described as just like a heavy cold? After taking three or four Covid vaccines, do some people think that their immune system is strong enough now? Perhaps you could reassure people who are on the fence about taking the vaccines.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will let Dr. Henry talk about the definitions of categories of the immunosuppressed and other target groups. On the question as to why some people are reluctant, we have no empirical data yet to say what the reason is. I think it is a combination of reasons. What I hear back from various leaders across the health system and in general commentary is that some people believe they do not need the Covid booster because they will be fine if they get Covid and that Covid is pretty much under control. Other people who have had Covid believe they are now immune to it, so they do not need a booster. Other people have the attitude that if they get it, they get it and it will be grand. They are not tuned into the fact that Covid can still make people very unwell. For people with certain conditions, it can still do serious harm. I believe some people think Covid is not as active as it was. Some are indifferent to the risks. It is like what was said, in that before there was any vaccination for Covid in 2020, everyone was looking for the vaccine. The queues were enormous and stories circulated about who got it first and who did not get it. Now we cannot give the vaccine away. That is the reality.

I want to be clear that there is still the risk of misinformation and disinformation and very negative campaigns on various social media platforms. Some of them are quite distasteful in the violence they talk about visiting on people like Dr. Henry, the Minister for Health and me. There is a mix of factors but certainly the lack of uptake is a cause for concern.

Dr. Colm Henry

We have always been worried about certain groups that have a particular risk of developing serious illness from Covid-19 and that risk remains. The vaccine may not prevent a person from contracting the virus but we know it has been very effective in greatly reducing the risk of people progressing to serious illness, which can include admission to hospital or intensive care, or even death in some cases.

We recently published evidence from the Health Protection Surveillance Centre, HPSE, which looked at the impact of the vaccine programme from December 2022 March 2023. It estimates that we have had 15,000 fewer deaths than we would have expected if there had not been a vaccination programme. It also noted 4,000 fewer admissions to intensive care units. We would not have had the ICU beds for those patients. It estimates up to 100,000 fewer admissions to hospital. Again, we would not have had places for those patients. There is now strong evidence emerging that the vaccine programme we have had to date has reduced a serious illness to a significant extent among the Irish population.

For immunosuppression, it is people on chemotherapy for cancer treatment, people who have blood disorders, people on long-term medications, such as steroids, and people with chronic renal disease. We know that these groups cannot muster the same immunological response to either the natural infection or vaccination and are particularly prone to a conversion to serious illness.

It is those people, as well as those with chronic illness and those who are older, who embrace the vaccine consistently at higher levels. Those are the people we need to focus on to take the vaccine because the vaccine wanes after a number of months. Our own healthcare workers are working with those people in different settings. The vaccine is particularly important. They have a responsibility not just to themselves but to the patients they are minding to make sure they are protected from contracting an illness which might not be serious to healthcare workers but might prove very serious to somebody who is hospitalised with immunosuppression.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to make sure that message is reinforced. At the moment we are talking about the Covid booster and flu vaccines. With the risk of mumps, measles, rubella and so on, we want to reinforce the message at every opportunity that our primary challenge with the immunisation programme is exceptionally important. We are seeing challenging childhood immunisation uptake rates in parts of the child population. My predecessor once-removed, Tony O'Brien, spent ages trying to recover from misinformation and disinformation on the HPV programme. We are now rolling the HPV vaccine out to a wider catchment. On the overall position of vaccination and immunisation, we are categorically saying to people that this does protect them and reduce the risk of harm. It not only reduces the risk of harm to the person being vaccinated but also reduces the risk of harm to the people around them. We urge people to take up the different programmes available to them.

Dr. Colm Henry

Vaccines are safe to take together. Whatever risks people think the vaccine poses to them, the risk of serious illness from Covid-19 is much greater.

I am conscious of the people who have long Covid and the life-changing side-effects that has. Do we have numbers for those who have long Covid?

Dr. Colm Henry

We developed an interim model of care based on the evidence we had in 2021 and HIQA subsequently assessed that model of care and broadly what we have done. The understanding of long Covid is changing all the time. Initially there was a focus largely on fatigue, and cardiac and respiratory sequelae. There is now an increasing awareness of neurological and cerebral consequences from long Covid. For this reason, the model of care we developed in response to demand was the establishment of post-acute long Covid clinics as well as a neuropsychiatric unit in St. James's Hospital for tertiary referral. Those units are accepting patients from the other units. The numbers are very difficult to gauge. Population surveys will find high levels of reporting of any of the symptoms, which are not specific to long Covid but can also be found in other post viral conditions. The numbers tend to wane over time. In other words, there is a high element of self-resolution. However, without doubt the experience here and internationally points to high levels of complications in the aftermath and persisting for months afterwards.

I take it they have not got that from the vaccine.

Dr. Colm Henry

No.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have two answers to earlier questions to read into the record if the Chairman wants me to do that before he goes to the second round of questions. I was asked about the volume of medical cards. A total of 40,033 were added this year, bringing the total number of medical cardholders in the State to 1,608,412. On GP visit cards, 75,381 were added this year bringing the total to 609,322. Regarding primary care centres, 103 primary care centres were delivered across both the lease and PPP programmes since 2013. Seven of those 103 were added this year and opened, with two more to open by the year end.

I wish to focus on the pathfinder programme. The service was developed in Beaumont hospital but has been rolled out throughout the country. Pathfinder is the geriatric element of that. I am told that one of the areas it is specifically looking at is the medication being taken by the over-75s. I ask the witnesses to expand on that. I accept it makes sense to review this every so often. We know that different medications have different side-effects, particularly as people get older. This is a very positive element of the roll-out of the programme. I ask the witnesses to illuminate the committee as to what it involves. It not only has a positive impact on people's health, but there is also a financial element to people not taking medication. I think the overall approach is right. It probably should be done regardless.

People may be presenting at accident and emergency departments. There needs to be greater focus on this area. We all know the stories. I spoke to someone who spent 30 years on the same medication. I know of a woman in her 90s who was taking aspirin for over 20 years. That must have an impact on someone. There are others who might be taking medication that might interfere with, for example, blood pressure. There is also the impact of taking different prescription medications together. What exactly is involved in that?

Dr. Colm Henry

We have two models of care which have been referred to at this morning's committee meeting - pathfinder and EDITH, both of which are essentially part of the same spectrum of care. The pathfinder involves, along with the National Ambulance Service staff, a therapist going to visit the patient on-site with a view to enabling him or her on-site and avoiding unnecessary conveyance to hospital and an unnecessary stay in an emergency department. The second is EDITH, which was referred to earlier, where a physician visits the patient on-site and may include review of the medications. The committee will have heard earlier about our integrated care programme for older people, ICPOP. Twenty-three of the 30 centres open have seen over 60,000 patients to date. This again pushes care out into the community involving earlier review of older, frailer people. About 60% of the patients reviewed score high in the frailty scale. These are exactly the kinds of patients we are seeing increasingly in emergency departments. The idea again is to bring care away from hospital.

While saying this, it is important to emphasise what we are trying to do is to avoid unnecessary conveyance to hospital. However, if people need to be conveyed to hospital, whether it is from ICPOP, pathfinder or EDITH, they will be referred to hospital if that is what is deemed to be appropriate and clinically necessary. The purpose of all these different elements of enhanced community care and bringing expertise to the community is to bring as much care as possible to the patient's home when he or she is unwell and to avoid conveyance to hospital if that is not necessary.

One of the big challenges last year related to babies and young children presenting at emergency departments. What is new this year for families possibly facing into that?

Dr. Colm Henry

I might just finish my response to the previous question. I did not specifically answer on the medications and the polypharmacy issue. We know that multiple medication is in itself a risk factor for falls and confusion, regardless of the different types of medications. This makes it all the more important that the ICPOP teams review people's medications. As people get older, more and more medications tend to be added without reference to how they interact and, as I have said, they can cause falls and confusion.

The biggest challenge we see with younger children is the RSV surge, which has taken place slightly later than last year. It is still on the rise. While we cannot be certain, we are hopeful that we will reach a peak within a number of weeks. Based on the experience of the last couple of years, it then plateaus for a brief number of weeks and falls rapidly. While it is on that upsurge and peaking, we see huge demands and people tend to focus on hospital. However, the GP community really bears the brunt of dealing with the presentations. We see increased presentations to the paediatric emergency departments and we also see pressure on the paediatric intensive care units. This year has been like the past two years in terms of seeing that sudden upsurge around the same time, peaking higher than in previous years but then rapidly falling in December.

Last year, the peak concurred with the flu and Covid-19. Based on the surveillance we have in the community, through wastewater surveillance, the GP sentinel scheme and the other ways we look at the pattern of virus transmission acuity, we have not seen the rise yet of influenza and Covid-19 but there is no reason it will not rise in the same way it has in previous years. Once the cold weather kicks in people congregate inside more and the opportunities for transmission multiply.

For families who have a sick baby or very young child, is the advice go to their GP first?

Dr. Colm Henry

Go to their GP first. In terms of RSV, the GPs are skilled in not just assessing patients but also assessing those who need onward referral to hospitals in a minority of cases. Those who get particularly sick in hospital are infants who are less than one year of age because their respiratory system is not yet mature to the point where it can adapt to respond in a robust way to the virus. That is where we see the greatest pressure.

I am conscious that a question was asked about UHL and on the challenges in its accident and emergency unit. The answer last year was that there was a lack of beds within the system. When I asked about the challenges that Tallaght University Hospital was experiencing, I was given the same answer about a lack of beds. I understand and see the challenges posed by the budget. The development that is proposed to overcome the challenge in the likes of the hospitals in Limerick or Tallaght is to have additional beds built within the system. The worry is that normally if there is a shortfall in budget, it is the capital projects that are cut additionally. Will that happen in areas like that?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, the capital position coming into next year is as strong as this year. The Minister will make his own announcements on that and it will be even slightly better.

Like UHL, and as I said when I was here last, there was a 96-bed block committed to and to shorten the timeframe on any future bed capacity, we got agreement to build the foundation and first-floor shell for a second 96-bed block. All of that is going through the mix with the planners at the moment but the first 96-bed block is shooting up and I still expect that to come on profile in early 2025. Other capital projects that are planned throughout the system are continuing. I do not see an immediate impact next year in that context because by the time they come on, we will obviously be into another budgetary year and we are hopeful things will improve.

Mr. Gloster mentioned the recruitment embargo, the exemptions in place and that, possibly, 5,000 posts have been paused. The impression was given that the people who were hired were not key personnel. People might not see an electrician or cleaner as key personnel or say these were not front-line posts that were paused. Does the embargo include cleaners and electricians? Please give us a sense of the types of jobs that have been paused.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Sure, and to give an accurate sense and as Tallaght has been referenced, I will ask Ms Broderick to mention an intervention we have made this year ahead of the winter period.

Ms Sandra Broderick

Owing to the delayed transfer challenges in Tallaght and the trolley numbers, together with Ms Day we have delivered 75 additional sub-acute beds that are now available for use, so that should start to begin to have an impact on the challenges at the front door and, equally, the challenges at the backdoor. It is a huge investment for Tallaght. Additionally, St. James's has access to 76 beds as well in the community, again, with the aim of reducing the pressure on the front door.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the staffing piece, our grade codes are broken down into the headline categories of: medical and dental; nursing and midwifery; health and social care professionals; management, administrative and general support; and patient and client care. Our maintenance and technical staff are included in general support, as would be cleaning staff, household staff and multitask assistants. Yes, all the grades of staff.

I know that there is a view about whether some of the posts are front line or not, and is one more important than the other. A health system works due to all of its component parts. You would have a pretty dangerous hospital if you were well staffed with nurses and doctors but did not have a cleaner.

It is an important point that is lost out there in terms of who is front-line staff and who is not.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, and the same for clerical staff. People talk about clerical staff as if they are in some hidden building counting things. The receptionists people meet when they go into the accident and emergency unit in Tallaght are clerical staff.

I suggest we move on and members will have seven minutes each, if that is okay.

I will return to some of the discussion we had earlier. The dark cloud that hangs over the health service at the moment is the level of funding. There is a dispute as to whether the level of funding is adequate, as Mr. Gloster knows. I will not go back over all of that ground but funding is going to determine what we can do for the rest of this year and into next year. When he was last before this committee, in fairness to Mr. Gloster and to Mr. Watt from the Department, they set out the rationale for this year's deficit, which I will get to in a second. Mr. Gloster said that there were a number of reasons and one of which was health inflation, if he remembers.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is right.

Mr. Watt proffered a figure, with which Mr. Gloster agreed, and I hope I am right about the sequence. Can Mr. Gloster remind us what the figure was, the anticipated figure and the rate of health inflation? I know health inflation is a global issue but what is the percentage here?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Again, and not to confuse people, the rate varies depending on which part of the health expenditure one works to. I have heard comments recently, in some places, that there is no difference between health inflation and headline inflation in the economy. There is and there are two reasons for that. First, in terms of the inflation that the ordinary consumer experiences every day, because of the volume of what we buy we experience that in very significant proportions. I think I outlined the change of energy contract last April-----

Yes. I want to know the percentage.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

-----that almost effectively doubled. There are different levels. If headline inflation runs at 5% then I would say it is a reasonable assertion to say our categories are running between 10% and 17%. They are variable because private hospitals will have one cost, energy will have a cost and food will have a cost. It is not a total net position but I am comfortable saying to the Deputy that the rate is between 10% and 17%.

Last week, the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform appeared before the finance committee. When he was asked whether health inflation could be as high as 17% he responded by saying, "Absolutely not." He also said, "I am not aware of what that is based on." He basically said that he had no knowledge of the rate of health inflation. How did the HSE and the Department of Health drop the ball and not make the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure aware of the rate of health inflation for this year given that we know that part of the existing levels of service, ELS, is based on inflation? We are here talking about a shortfall next year of, possibly, €1.3 billion. Whether it is a shortfall in one-off or core funding we know there will be a shortfall and deficit. How can the Secretary General say, regarding health inflation of 17%, "Absolutely not." and "I am not aware" of the level of health inflation.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure, I was not with him and I do not know on what his assessment was based. I can explain how the process works. The health service provides very detailed financial reports to the Department of Health despite the public view that there is no reporting; there is. Within that, there is quite an increasing level of analysis in the Department, and quite rightly so. Members will have heard the Secretary General, Mr. Watt, when he was here with me. There is not any disagreement between myself and Mr. Watt. What gets translated from the Department of Health on to the Department of public expenditure and others, I am not in those discussions.

Hold it there. If Mr. Gloster is right, and the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is right, then the Department of Health failed to inform him as to what heath inflation is. It got worse because Mr. Gloster also said that at least two thirds of the deficit for this year will recur into next year. That is the figure Mr. Gloster gave - two thirds at a minimum. He said there were a number of drivers, such as health inflation, demand, and so on.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Three drivers. Demand-----

He estimated that the majority of it would recur next year.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

On the significance of the driver, I explained there were three core drivers.

I understand that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

One third of that is linked to inflation.

That is my point. Again, that was put to the Secretary General. About the majority of the deficit for this year recurring next year, the Secretary General stated "That position has never been presented to me" and "It would not have arisen". How did the HSE and the Department of Health fail to inform the Secretary General that the majority of this year's deficit was going to recur next year, when it was the Secretary General and his Minister, Deputy Donohoe, who set the funding parameters for next year? If he is right in claiming that position was never presented to him, then there is a failing somewhere.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will not judge anybody on whether they failed or not. I take responsibility for our position. The health service budget is subject to a health budget oversight group, which includes my officials, senior officials from the Department of Health, and senior officials from the Department of public expenditure. They discuss the expenditure throughout the year, including discussion about when it is starting to go offline. There will be discussion about what might be the causes behind that. I have no doubt inflationary pressures formed part of those discussions throughout the latter part of 2023, if not earlier in the year. That is the first part. The second part is that when the Estimates process is going on, we provide the Department of Health with all of the information and analysis we have. We usually come to an agreed position with them, and I believe we did this year. They then present those estimates and that analysis to the Department of public expenditure. There are then bilateral meetings between officials from both Departments culminating in meetings between the two Secretaries General and the two Ministers. I do not participate.

I want to make a point to the Chair.

I am also conscious that we are quoting an individual who is not here.

I understand, but this is an important issue. I will make this point. We are facing into a year in 2024 where the head of the HSE has directly said that the health service is not adequately funded. We know all of that and do not need to go back over all of that ground. However, it strikes me as incredible and unbelievable that the Secretary General in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform would not have been aware of what health inflation was running at, or that the majority of the deficit for this year was recurring. We need to seek minutes of those oversight meetings that Mr. Gloster has spoken about. We also need to get any correspondence that was forwarded to, or submitted to the Secretary General in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform from the Department of Health. We need to see those too, because that figure was set by the Department of public expenditure, not by the Department of Health or the HSE. It grossly underfunds the health service for next year. I do not think we can let it stand that the Secretary General in that Department would say he had no knowledge, was not informed and did not get the information, when it is clear to everybody that the information would have been provided. We need to get the paperwork for that, which I am sure will prove the information was provided. I am asking the clerk to the committee if that can be followed up.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will be clear and fair to Mr. Moloney, the Secretary General in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. I have not met him and been party to those discussions. I do not know, to be fair to him, what he was-----

It is the Department of Health. I understand that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

That is just to be clear. Sectoral inflation separate to headline inflation is not unusual. Construction industry inflation is different to headline inflation, and it is well established internationally that there is a health inflation factor that is different to headline inflation.

Let us discuss this at the next private meeting, but I am conscious that the Minister will shortly come before the committee about this subject. That will be a relevant question to ask.

I turn back to the question of the recruitment pause and its impact. The point was made earlier that the application of the pause will be somewhat uneven. I also wish to ask about the impact on the structure of staffing. First, what is the impact on promotions within the service?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In the general sense, there will be a pause for the remainder of this year because it is linked to the funded number. I have confirmed internally that we have a number of people acting in higher positions, for good reasons like hospital managers covering maternity leaves, and so on. Where they come up for automatic renewal they do not affect the numbers, so they are renewed. If there is a critical senior vacancy to be filled, it can be filled internally with approval, but ultimately within the overall same number. Somebody might move from one position to another on a temporary promotion to fill a more critical vacancy, but ultimately there is a vacancy left behind him or her somewhere.

On the structure of staffing in the HSE, the criticism is often made that it is top heavy. Mr. Gloster told us earlier what he is doing to reduce private consultancy use. The figures published by the HSE would indicate there is an element of the organisation being top heavy with regard to clerical grades. As a general rule, I do not subscribe to the trope of there being too many managers. However, when you look at the actual clerical grades it looks like it is more than one to one between senior grades and entry grades or clerical officers. Does Mr. Gloster accept that criticism, because the figures bear that out?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I accept it, and will assist the Deputy with that. Clerical grades go from grade 3 to grade 8, with the traditional grade 8 seen as the senior management pitch. Grade 8 and higher went from 1,845 at the end of 2019 to 2,522 in September this year. The lower grades within that, grade 3 to grade 5, went from 11,800 to 13,700. There is no doubt there is growth in senior grades. I have not disputed that and I think I called it out myself here the first day. The HSE is top heavy in the centre, which is why I am changing the structure. I issued the final draft of the new centre structure design today. There were approximately 25 national director posts when I came into the HSE in March. Through attrition and other conditions, I have already reduced that to 21.

Fine. I welcome that restructuring. What is the position, then, on clinical grades? There would seem to be a relatively higher level of senior grades within some of the clinicals.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In the category of medical and dental, which includes consultants, registrars, senior house officers, SHOs, interns, medical and dentists, there were 10,857 at the end of December 2019. By September 2023 ,that had reached 13,490. The other clinical component is obviously nursing and midwifery, which was 38,209 at the end of 2019 and has now grown to 45,017 in September 2023. Health and social care professionals, that is, physios, pharmacy and so on who are clinical or quasi-clinical, have grown from 16,769-----

I apologise, but I am talking about the percentage in management grades within disciplines. I am not asking Mr. Gloster to provide those figures today. Will he provide us with a note on the percentage in management grades across the different disciplines?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, of course.

That is just to get an idea of the structure.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I will certainly have a go at it, and see how available it is.

Fine. I also raise the question of the recent change in policy on delayed discharges. We are seeing what appears to be a reduction in choice for older people in terms, essentially, of where they will live on coming out of an acute hospital. We know Age Action has taken a strong position on that and has been critical.

We also know the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, is addressing the issue at the moment. If we are looking at the health service in terms of numbers, we might say, yes, the new policy makes sense. However, if we look at it from the perspective of individuals and people's rights in terms of choice - Mr. Gloster was recently involved in discussions on the whole area of assisted decision-making, which is relevant - it would seem to fly in the face of the principles underlying autonomy and avoiding ageism. Where is the policy at now and is the HSE reconsidering its implementation in light of the serious concerns expressed by a lot of people about its potential to be seen as ageism?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

As much as I have heard that concern expressed, and I acknowledged in a recent radio interview the right of people to advocate and have those concerns, I have equally had very welcome support for the policy from the Irish Association for Emergency Medicine-----

That organisation would say that, would it not, if we are looking at numbers of beds?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not think its advocacy for the welfare of patients is any less than that of the Irish Society of Physicians in Geriatric Medicine. I do not think it is just a case of, of course the Irish Association for Emergency Medicine would say that. I have also had an unequivocal unwelcome for the policy from Sage Advocacy, which is one of the strongest advocacy partners in the country. There are different views and I respect both perspectives. That is the first point.

The second point I want to make is that I come from the absolute premise that we should at all times do the best we can to give effect to the will, determination, rights and wishes of people in everything we do. I am a firm believer in that and in how the assisted decision-making process modernises what was a very paternalistic system. However, we can only do it to the extent that it is pragmatic and practical to do so. The simple reality is that, first, as I have made clear to people, nobody is being sent anywhere, forced to go anywhere or sent 100 miles away. I have heard all of that type of commentary. The simple reality is that I have expert evidence telling me that when people, particularly older people, are discharged from hospital but stay in hospital, they decondition at a very significant rate and it is very bad for them to be there. That is the second point.

The other point, separately, is rightly raised repeatedly by members of this committee. We have made improvements in this regard in the past few weeks but we have a long way to go. I refer to the incidence of the most abhorrent situations in which frail people are on trolleys in emergency departments or parked on corridors where they have no dignity and where their life chances are greatly compromised the longer that goes on. On both ends of that spectrum, it makes sense from my perspective that where a person's genuine choice is not immediately available, we at least do everything to move to a second-choice or best-choice position and thereafter to allow that individual, after he or she has moved to a place that is not his or her first choice, to exercise his or her first choice as soon as it becomes available. The fair deal scheme allows for that.

How is Mr. Gloster ensuring that happens? The general experience is that once people move out of an acute hospital bed, nobody is really listening to their wishes.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

There are two parts to this from my perspective. The first is that I am hoping that, through families, advocates and others, people's first choice will be known to enough people to ensure it is kept and pursued afterwards. The second part is in regard to their basic healthcare. Unfortunately, we have had a position in the Irish healthcare system, and I have met some resistance in the workforce on the matter this year, whereby our primary care and community care staff, by general rule, do not operate within private nursing homes. I am changing that because I believe people in private nursing homes have a right to the same access to care as if they are living in their own home. That will add to the oversight of this issue.

The place where Dr. Henry, Ms Broderick and I want to get to a better level of monitoring and follow-up is not actually in long-term care but in respect of people who go to transition care. I refer to people who are meant to go to transition for four weeks, say, of recovery and recuperation or while waiting for a home care package. We can do better on their follow-up and the quality of their care, and we certainly are very committed to that. However, if the Deputy is asking me whether I have a dedicated follow-up of every person who goes into care, the answer is that I do not.

It goes back to the question I raised earlier in regard to home care. People's first choice, in the main, is to be able to go home with support. If we are in a situation where home care numbers are capped, I do not see how that need and desire of older people to move back home after discharge or after transition care can be met. That is the big logjam within the health service and it needs to be addressed. We cannot go into next year with a cap on the number of home care hours.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I hope to go into next year and the following year showing the Government that I have delivered every hour it has given me and, therefore, having justified the basis for needing more, as opposed to previous years where we have not met the target. I absolutely do not dispute the Deputy's point. In fairness, she has been a strong advocate on this issue, as have many others, for as long as I am coming in here and longer. I cannot emphasise enough that there is no shortage of commitment or will on our part to increase continuously the option of home care supports for people. We do that to the best available resource we have, in both money and people.

Mr. Gloster made reference to the top-heaviness of administration in the HSE. How will that be affected by the recent pause on recruitment? Will it be added to or will it be dealt with in a strategic manner?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

The management administrative grade numbers in the health service for this year were set to grow by a net 1,400. By the summer, that target had already been exceeded.

Who set that number?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It was set at the start of the year in the service plan, before I came into post. The complement was set to grow by that number. To be fair, a lot of those people are involved in front-line work and services. I would not want to be disparaging of their role. Unfortunately, we have exceeded that number because of an absence of control. I am very honest about that. Now that I have introduced the control, I am experiencing quite a significant amount of criticism for it. The management administrative grades are at very significant numbers. Other than in a situation where services are growing exponentially, I do not envisage those numbers increasing significantly going into next year.

It would be alarming if it were found that the top-heaviness was growing during the pause on recruitment as opposed to going in the opposite direction. From a management point of view, it should be going in the opposite direction and the opportunity should be taken to give assurance that the administration will not become more top-heavy.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In case I am back here next month to discuss the October figures, I can let the Deputy know that the evidence of the impact of the pause I introduced across all grades, not just management administration, will not really be seen until the January figures. I introduced the pause on grades 7 and above, which are the higher administrative grades, early in the summer. We saw a massive decline in those numbers by the time we got to September but we saw an increase in the lower grades.

Which is the most important to address?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I have made the point already that I have redesigned the centre of the organisation. Within that context, the most top-heavy part is in the centre of the HSE. I intend to reduce its size by about a half, both by redeployment out to regions and by changes through attrition.

An issue I have raised before is security in emergency departments and admissions and the appalling abuse dished out to staff by would-be patients, frustrated patients or people of whom it is difficult to discover why they are there in the first place. The abuse experienced by medical staff, including nurses, doctors and attendants, is appalling and has to be witnessed to be fully appreciated. I do not expect anybody to want to work in those kinds of conditions. That type of abuse should not happen. There is a security element that needs to be attended to urgently in order that patients and staff are not intimidated and to prevent the health service getting a bad name as a result of the activities in and around emergency departments.

An issue brought to my attention recently concerns cancer patients and others with life-threatening or life-altering illnesses who find difficulty in getting car parking. They feel some special arrangement should and could be made for people who have to repeatedly attend for treatment at a hospital and find the same thing occurs repeatedly, namely, that they have to scout around for a car parking space. The space is not needed for a long time, but they still have to look for it. People in this situation already have enough problems to contend with without having the added stress of wondering if they will be able to find a car parking space and whether their car will have been clamped when they come back out.

I very seldom become locally focused because I do not believe that is the job we should be doing here, but I am going to do it now. I have mentioned this issue in relation to Naas hospital before. I am very disappointed at the slow progress in moving it on. It has been on the stocks, as it were, for the past two and a half, three or four years. Approval has been given but very little is happening. Naas hospital is right bang in the middle of the most rapidly growing population area in the country. Other places will claim this particular distinction, but Naas hospital is right in the middle of this reality. Naas is under growing pressure and I ask that the HSE look at this hospital carefully with a view to ensuring the extension required and the extension of services required are brought about rapidly to meet the standards of what is required in the shortest time possible.

We are fortunate we have a good primary care centre in Naas. This is very important. We also have one in Celbridge, but this may not be able to handle the demand for care in the future. There is an urgent need to have a primary care centre in Maynooth and one in Leixlip. To take Maynooth as an example, again the population in the town has increased from about 10,000 people to more than 20,000 people, plus a student population of 17,000. The demand is going to be dramatic there. It is no good saying we will deal with this situation in the future. The future is now, and we must provide for it in the best possible way. I am raising this issue not in the expectation of getting an answer right now, but I do want to get an answer and I want a particular emphasis to be put on areas of population and demand increase. This increase in demand for health services is similar to the demand seen for places in schools, etc.

Ms Mary Day

I take the Deputy's point on security. There is a problem regarding staff in several accident and emergency departments getting abused verbally, unfortunately. In fairness, a great deal of effort is being put into increasing security across accident and emergency departments. Work is being done with the INMO in this regard as well. This is an area of concern for that organisation, and we are very much working in partnership in respect of undertaking due diligence for our accident and emergency departments, doing an assessment of the security available and a piece on workplace safety. Protecting staff in the workplace is very much top of our agenda.

I thank Ms Day. I acknowledge that we got a note from the HSE concerning the idea of the quiet room and work being done in this regard.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

In Naas hospital, another 12 single rooms are due to open there. I have it on my list to visit the hospital and I will be going there shortly. I am not sure that will make much difference but I will certainly do my best.

It will make a big difference.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

We have often talked in this committee about cross-learning from best practice in other hospitals and how accident and emergency departments are run. I asked the manager of the hospital in Waterford to go to Naas recently and spend some time with the staff there. She did that and offered some very good assistance, all of which helps. I do, however, take the point made by the Deputy. There is a rapidly growing population and we need to keep expanding.

I thank Mr. Gloster.

I call Senator Conway.

We know the RHA structures are going to be put in place, but I think Mr. Gloster did tell the committee once or twice that an effort was being made to try to streamline the management structure now to reflect this.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Some of the problems in accident and emergency departments arise, I think, from the fact the community care area is not engaging necessarily at the level it should with the acute care area. Will Mr. Gloster give us a quick update on how this is going?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to my colleagues in community care as well as acute care, I do not know who we would say would or would not engage. I think people to genuinely do this and work hard at it, but the systems and processes they work in restrict it. When I came into this post in March, I introduced temporary measures. All the hospital CEOs and chief officers in community care now report directly in a forum to me every three weeks and we have very robust debates. In the case of Senator Conway's area, the mid-west, come 1 March, there will be one regional executive officer with full authority and responsibility for the whole region to bring all the services together and integrate all these processes. I am in the middle of this recruitment.

The building blocks for that are taking place now and we should see positive results even before March.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes, absolutely.

In terms of the recruitment embargo, I presume this does not extend to section 39 organisations being funded by the HSE. I am asking about this point specifically because Mr. Gloster kindly agreed to my request to meet with representatives of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, NCBI. As part of that engagement and discussion, a commitment was given to fund an extra eye clinic liaison officer, ECLO, due to be appointed in Waterford hospital. I presume the commitment to this funding is there and the hospital can go ahead and hire the ECLO, because I think the hospital is almost at this stage of recruitment.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to section 39 agencies, we are all aware of the long-term challenge they have had on pay restoration. It would be a dreadful thing if we suddenly told them they could not recruit. The only people included in my recruitment pause, and in the numbers in this regard, are those employed by section 38 and HSE organisations. Section 38 organisations are the big hospitals and disability providers. Section 39 agencies are absolutely free to recruit.

In the previous census, the number of people who declared sight loss increased by 55,000 to 300,000. It has now become critical that this structure is built up on a long-term basis. I have a note on this subject that I will give to Mr. Gloster before he leaves.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

It is important to recognise what the NCBI has brought to the table in terms of developing capacity that fundamentally alters the lives of people with sight loss and sight challenges. I assure the Senator the organisation has my support and will continue to have it.

Great. I thank Mr. Gloster.

I call Deputy Colm Burke.

I raised a matter here recently regarding representations I got from the Irish Lung Fibrosis Association, ILFA, and I got a briefing from Mr. Mitchell on it. I have received a response from the ILFA stating the information contained in the briefing is incorrect. The ILFA is saying lung fibrosis patients are actively excluded from the vital pulmonary rehabilitation exercise programmes in the community as these are available to COPD and asthma patients only. The ILFA is seeking a review of this situation. Its members do not have access to these programmes. I refer to an email I got on the subject today. I had sent on the briefing note I got to the organisation and this email came back in response. I ask that this issue be looked at.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Yes.

Another issue is that I understand more than 5,000 people are affected by lung fibrosis and there is difficulty with accessing oxygen and supports. Mr. Gloster may not be able to give me the answers in this meeting, but all I am saying to him is that the briefing he asked for, was given and then sent to this committee is inaccurate. This is the information I have and it has come from the people working on the front line with lung fibrosis patients.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

To be fair to my own people and to be fair to the people in the ILFA, I think, if they are disputing the information we have given to the committee, then the first thing I will say is that if the information we have given to the committee is inaccurate, then we will absolutely correct it. Rather than us writing back to the ILFA again or the Deputy giving the association more information and then it once more coming back in response, I will ensure the person who has the most knowledge of this matter in our system and who prepared the briefing arranges for a direct engagement with the ILFA to talk through this issue and work out what is different between us. We will then communicate this outcome back to the Deputy by way of an assurance that this matter has been attended to.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

As to the access to particular treatments and methodologies, this is a clinical matter. I would not necessarily know what this situation is, but I will certainly inquire about it.

The next issue I want to raise is one I have raised previously and it is the ratio of people employed in public nursing homes and the number of beds available. My understanding is that in quite a number of public nursing homes, the number of beds was reduced but the staffing levels were not reduced. There was one nursing home in particular in the Laois-Offaly area that I raised. What progress has been made in resolving this issue? On the one hand we are speaking about a staff embargo and, at the same time, we are not getting value for money with regard to the number of people employed. What are we doing about this?

Can we have a figure on the total number of beds that are actively used in public nursing homes throughout the country? An accurate figure is not being produced for us. We can get accurate figures for hospital beds but we are not getting any figure for the number of public beds in public nursing homes that were there in 2019. I accept that changes had to be made because of Covid. Previously, there might have been two beds in a room but now it is not possible to have this and it is not safe to do so in certain cases. The staffing ratio has totally changed. How are we dealing with this issue? We have a large number of staff and a very low number of beds in the case of the particular nursing home I raised previously.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

Ms Broderick will speak and the general issue of staffing ratios in public beds. They are different from private and there is no point in saying any differently. As I have explained previously, there are differences in pay, in standards and in the dependency levels of a lot of residents. I know this is disputed by the private nursing home providers but there is substantial evidence on dependency levels and public units.

The issue Deputy Burke raised with me regarding Laois was at the Committee of Public Accounts. It is with regard to a nursing home in Abbeyleix. I went to visit it on the back of Deputy Burke raising the issue and on the request of the Cathaoirleach of the Committee of Public Accounts. It is an outlier at this stage. There is one resident there on the fair deal scheme and the other beds are respite, short-term and step-down beds and there is very active use of them. This distorts the cost of care. I met the resident, who has been there for 20 years. It is her home and we will continue to honour this. The future of the facility is to add more capacity. There is now a step-down unit there for Portlaoise hospital which is separate to the community nursing units. They are both in the same building, which is very dynamic. It is an outlier with regard to measuring the cost of care and I would not rely on it.

With regard to general public bed use and occupancy-----

It would be helpful, and Mr. Gloster may not be able to give it to me this morning, if we got a comparison of the number of public beds being used throughout the country in 2019 and the number of public beds available now in public nursing homes, and the staff ratio. This is relevant when we are speaking about an embargo. Crucial services that may need additional staff are prevented from getting them and meanwhile we are not getting an efficient use of personnel in other facilities.

Ms Sandra Broderick

We have 4,780 long-stay beds. These are NHSS beds. We also have 1,711 short-stay beds and 805 rehabilitation beds. It is very important to recognise that in our CNUs we have a mix of short-stay and long-stay beds. The acuity may differ in terms of the needs and profiles of the people we have coming in. This will vary with regard to the staffing ratios we have in the units. It will not be exact throughout the country.

We have started our cost-of-care review. With this we have had to deliver a live bed register. We can go on every day and see what the occupancy is and what the vacancies are in all of our public beds. We can also see where there are temporarily closed beds, beds that are due to open and where beds are closed because of staffing issues and other such issues. The intended outcome of the live bed register is to allow us to performance manage and to have conversations with the local areas about why beds have closed and when they expect them to open. The impact will be that we should start to see a drop in the cost of care. I hope this answers Deputy Burke's question.

I want to ask about the number of beds in public nursing homes now and whether they are respite beds or long-term beds. Can we get a breakdown of this per health area? I would also like a comparison with 2019.

Ms Sandra Broderick

Yes.

There is growth in the population age group and people are surviving longer. Despite all of the criticism of our health service, we now have 800,000 people over the age of 66. Within six years it will be 1 million people. In fairness, this is due to a large degree to the health service we have. Life expectancy has changed quite a bit and has improved. We will need a long-term plan to deal with this increase in numbers. Everyone wants more and more people to remain at home, and this is what the people themselves want, but no matter what we do, we will still have an increased demand for long-stay beds. What are we doing with regard to this long-term planning?

Ms Sandra Broderick

The strategic focus of the HSE at present is to look at our future demand trends for long-stay beds. Equally, there is the focus on rehabilitation for our older population and helping older people to maintain as much independence as possible. Dr. Henry will speak about this.

With regard to rehabilitation, I have raised the issue of the new hospital that has been built in Mallow. There are 48 beds or rooms available for hospital use and there are also another 40 rooms. On the previous occasion I raised this issue, there was no outline on what these 40 rooms will be used for. Has this issue been progressed at this stage?

Mr. Bernard Gloster

No, the position is that the 40 rooms scheduled to open have been opened or are opening. This is what is in the plan, what has been funded and what we have a workforce for. There is no plan for additionality at present.

This facility is lying idle. Are we speaking about doing something with it? Obviously, it will not happen in 2023. Will we see any plan in 2024? We do have a challenge in rehabilitation care. Dún Laoghaire is the only facility available. St. Finbarr's in Cork provides a very good service but it is under pressure at all times.

Mr. Bernard Gloster

I do not have additionality to give it. If I get the additional capacity to do it, then of course we would look to exploit these opportunities. At present, we buy step-down beds in private nursing home but there is no plan for an additional 40 beds or rehabilitation beds in Mallow at present.

The facility the HSE has acquired in the Blarney golf links hotel has had 50 beds developed. When are we likely to see these being fully operational?

Ms Sandra Broderick

The 50 beds are part of the overall rehabilitation focus. Dr. Henry will speak about this.

Dr. Colm Henry

Our move is towards creating more enablement and rehabilitation beds. We are often asked by the committee about additional acute bed capacity. With the ageing demographics, we need to re-profile our long-term beds and some of our short-stay beds to re-enabling beds, particularly for post-acute patients given that an increased proportion of people are being admitted to hospital who are over 75 years of age. This is part of our plan.

There are now three facilities in my constituency of Cork North-Central. Mallow hospital has 40 rooms, Blarney golf links hotel has 50 rooms and St. Mary's Health Campus has another 60 rooms. When are these likely to be fully operational?

Ms Sandra Broderick

I will need to come back to the Deputy on St. Mary's because I am not quite sure whether the refurbishment is finished.

There were 50 beds there and a major extension has been built with an additional 60 beds.

Ms Sandra Broderick

Yes.

What number do we now have there? Can we use the facility to full capacity?

Ms Sandra Broderick

We will have to come back to Deputy Burke on this.

It is St Mary's in Gurranabraher.

We need to finish up.

Again, I thank the representatives of the HSE for engaging with the committee on the matter of hospital preparedness this winter and the expected seasonal increase in respiratory and other such illnesses. It was a useful meeting with many positive things happening. I wish the witnesses and all their staff well with regard to the challenges they are facing, particularly over the winter period. The committee will be carefully monitoring how the system copes with the public need for access to hospitals over the coming months. We may well be seeing our guests again in two weeks time on the subject of Sláintecare. This meeting is now adjourned until 4 p.m. on 28 November when the committee will meet in private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 December 2023.
Barr
Roinn