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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 2024

Health Needs of Persons with Dementia and the Services Available: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with representatives from the Alzheimer Society of Ireland and Family Carers Ireland on the health needs of persons with dementia and the services available to them. I am pleased to welcome from the Alzheimer Society of Ireland Mr. Andy Heffernan, chief executive officer, Ms Clodagh Whelan, advocacy manager, and Dr. Laura O'Philbin, research and policy manager, and from Family Carers Ireland Mr. John Dunne, chief executive officer, and Ms Clare Duffy, policy and public affairs manager.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask all members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution.

To commence our consideration of dementia, I now invite Mr. Heffernan to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Alzheimer Society of Ireland.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I thank the Chair and committee members for the invitation to speak here this morning. By way of introduction, I will put dementia in context. It is estimated that over 55 million people are currently living with dementia and, according to the WHO, dementia is now the seventh leading cause of death and one of the major causes of disability and dependency among older people globally. In Ireland it is estimated that 64,0000 people are living with dementia and this is predicted to rise to 150,000 by 2045. Additionally, it is estimated that some 500,000 Irish people have been affected by dementia in some way.

Dementia itself is an umbrella term for a series of symptoms that cause changes to the brain. The most common sub-types are Alzheimer's, vascular dementia, mixed dementia and dementia with Lewy bodies, but there are over 400 more. It is a progressive neurological condition associated with a range of cognitive, behavioural and psychological symptoms, including memory loss, problems with reasoning and communication, and changes in personality that impair day to day living.

The difficulties faced by people diagnosed with dementia and those who provide care and support are complex and immense. Despite this stark scenario, the Alzheimer Society of Ireland, ASI, comes before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health with a message of hope. Our vision is an Ireland in which people on the journey of dementia are valued, can realise their rights, exercise choice and live well where they choose. We believe this vision can be realised for the following reasons.

The Department of Health launched Ireland’s first national dementia strategy some ten years ago in 2014. In recent years, the ambition set out in this plan has begun to be realised with increases in Government funding for initiatives, services and supports for people affected by dementia, together with the commitment and leadership of the Minister of State with responsibility for older people, Deputy Butler. This funding ensures our services continue to grow. In 2023, we delivered just under 126,000 home care hours and 78,000 day care at home hours. We trained 819 family carers to support their loved ones with dementia and our team of dementia advisers had 4,674 new referrals and more than 13,000 individual meetings. Our day centres had more than 63,000 attendances this year and our social clubs more than 10,000. In 2023, our helpline had 6,500 interactions. The launch of the landmark model of care for dementia in Ireland is a game-changer and its implementation will be a life-changing pathway from diagnosis to end of life. Key targets and pathways set out in the model of care, such as a network of memory technology resource rooms, memory assessment support services and specialist regional memory clinics, some of which are already in place, build on current services. There is ongoing collaboration with the national dementia services with our team, together with enhanced funding as part of the HSE enhanced community care programmes, positive links with integrated care for older persons teams and the introduction of new positions at assistant director of nursing level with a focus on dementia service improvement. In the last three years alone, we have developed innovative new services such as day care at home, rolled out community engagement initiatives and continued to destigmatise dementia. We have witnessed significant developments in research such as the funding of Dementia Trials Ireland by the Health Research Board, which aims to triple the number of clinical trials available for people with dementia in Ireland by 2026. Internationally, there are new disease-modifying therapies for Alzheimer’s disease that are expected to be licensed for use in Europe in the coming months. There are further insights and understanding regarding brain health and dementia risk reduction strategies, together with potential new diagnostic tools such as blood-based biomarkers.

However, despite the myriad reasons for hope and evidence demonstrating service and funding improvements, we know there are people throughout Ireland at the moment who are struggling and feel hopeless. We cannot forget them. The ASI conducted research involving more than 650 people undertaken in May and June last year. People with dementia and family carers reported significant challenges in accessing services. They reported an administrative burden and stress in having to fight for services and support. The research found that 63% of carers had difficulty accessing services, with 25% of those experiencing great difficulty. Of the respondents in receipt of home care, almost two thirds have experienced a delay or a reduction in the delivery of home support due to a shortage of home care workers. People living with dementia told our research team that they are grappling with low mood, isolation and loneliness, with a majority categorising their mental health as poor or fair. This echoes what many of our front-line colleagues hear on the ground. We recommend the following measures to continue to improve the experience of dementia in Ireland so that those who are struggling and facing the multifaceted challenges dementia presents can be better supported.

First, we are looking for the improvement of access to services and the plan for the implementation of the model of care for dementia in Ireland. In this regard, we need a time-bound implementation plan for the model of care and ring-fenced multi-annual funding for that implementation.

Unfortunately, the excellent plans for 2024 are being negatively impacted by the recruitment embargo within the HSE.

We must also continue to grow our own services to tackle service gaps and geographical inequities. We know that access to dementia-specific services can be sporadic, particularly in rural areas and we want to see targeted investment in the areas of greatest need.

We must address home care staffing issues. It is well established that home care delivery is extremely challenging here in Ireland and internationally. We welcome the WRC's agreement last year to move towards pay parity for section 39 workers. However, we still await its application. There is also a need to address travel issues for home care workers as well as introduce meaningful career progression opportunities.

Second, we must open up local communities to address loneliness and isolation. Loneliness is an internationally recognised public health risk. Ireland has the highest rates of loneliness in the EU, and people living with dementia and carers are even more vulnerable to loneliness. Dementia requires a societal response.

We believe continued support for the work of the HSE's Understand Together Campaign, and our own community engagement programmes, including highly successful intergenerational initiatives, in addition to developing an action plan to address loneliness and isolation in line with the asks set out by the loneliness task force, is necessary.

Third, we must fund the provision of psychotherapeutic support and education to people with dementia and carers. It is long established that people with dementia, and family carers, struggle with their mental health. Research tells us that counselling is highly effective in reducing depressive symptoms and anxiety in carers of people with dementia. Education better equips families to cope and support the person with dementia.

Fourth, we must provide sustainable financial supports to carers. Research by the ASI, and her sister organisation, Family Carers Ireland, have consistently shown that family carers of people with dementia are struggling to make ends meet, which creates stress and anxiety. As inflationary pressures continue, there remains an urgent need to enhance social protection for this cohort.

Finally, we must ensure comprehensive preparation for the application of current and future innovations in dementia care for the benefit of all those impacted. The dementia landscape is on the cusp of significant change with landmark innovations in disease modifying therapies and diagnostics. It is critical to engage with clinicians to plan for the likelihood of at least some of these innovations reaching Ireland.

There is a rapidly growing body of evidence on dementia risk reduction and prevention which must become part of the public discourse. Brain health is everybody's business.

There is excellent translational research happening in institutions across Ireland. We must support research professionals and clinicians to ensure that this research is embedded into practice.

We very much view and understand dementia through a human rights lens, and the ASI is very much led by principles of personhood and dignity. Dementia care in Ireland has taken huge strides in recent years but we are still not upholding the rights and personhood of every person affected by the condition. However, the tools are there and I think that with continued funding, and political will, we believe life can improve for people living with dementia, their families and their communities.

I thank Mr. Heffernan. I invite Mr. Dunne to make opening remarks on behalf of Family Carers Ireland.

Mr. John Dunne

On behalf of Family Carers Ireland, I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to address the health needs of persons with dementia and the services available for them.

We are pleased to be appearing with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland. We have long history of co-operation in supporting families caring for someone with dementia. Examples of our engagement on this are as follows: five of our basic online courses that cover generic caring issues are on the HSE's dementia pathways portal; we have our own basic e-learning module on dementia care; our online carer forum offers a virtual peer-support network for carers of people with dementia; and all of our crisis supports,including counselling and emergency respite, are available to carers of people with dementia.

A good deal of our research is of relevance to dementia care. In particular, in 2021, we partnered with Dr. Emma O’Shea of UCC’s Centre for Gerontology and Rehabilitation to research the factors that support resilience in families supporting someone with dementia and influence the sustainability of family care giving in the context of dementia. That report concluded that almost half of the cost of dementia care is attributable to the opportunity cost of care provided by the family and that we need to give families care options if we are going to propagate the ageing-in-place dogma, which we do support.

Following that report we collaborated with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland, ASI, specifically in researching the financial challenges facing families caring for people with dementia in Ireland, which is based on analysis of feedback provided by family carers of people with dementia as part of our 2022 State of Caring report. Generally speaking we see our core competence as rooted in the practicalities of caring including providing generic personal care. We defer to ASI on issues relating to dementia itself. In that context I am quite happy to endorse pretty much everything Mr. Heffernan has said, just for the record.

As an organisation, Family Carers Ireland, FCI, consciously focuses on the family carer precisely because too often carers do not realise until it is too late that if they do not look after themselves they will not be able to keep looking after anyone else. It is a bit like the aeroplane announcement where in case of emergency you put your own mask on first before you put it on the children because you could pass out faster than you would die. Carers need to look after themselves and be reminded to do that.

I must mention the upcoming referendum about family caring, which obviously relates to caring in all situations and not just dementia, and the need for recognition, value and real tangible supports and services to make carers' lives easier. FCI sees the referendum as important for enshrining recognition and value for family care in our Constitution. Having said that, it would have been helpful in countering widespread disappointment with what is perceived to be a watering down of the recommended wording from the citizens' assembly. I am sympathetic to the Government's view that they thought they were strengthening it but either way it is an aspirational kind of statement. It would have been nice to see some further progress on the roll out of the career guarantee during 2024 as evidence of the State's striving to support family carers.

Rather than looking at the condition, we focus on what we call the caring dyad of the carer and cared for person rather than on the condition. It is a different perspective to the one framed in the national dementia strategy. Dementia is challenging but many of the specific challenges it presents such as changing relationships, personal care, flight risk, and carer harm are not specific to dementia. They also present on a spectrum that must be calibrated alongside the internal resilience and external supports the caring individual or family can draw upon. Before she died my mother developed delirium on top of relatively mild dementia. The diagnosis made little practical difference. There is no national delirium service. For me the syndrome mattered less than the sudden and significant changes in her situation that had to be managed on a day-to-day basis.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not arguing that our focus on the care situation is superior to the condition-based one but merely that as reflected in the effective partnership we have with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland the two are complementary. We fully support the development of a national dementia strategy but we would like to see it along with the family carers' strategy - in case it sounds like we are going for dementia - along with a positive ageing strategy, a mental health strategy and a stroke strategy all being developed in the context of an overall integrated social care strategy informed by an holistic model of integrated care focused on the changing needs of patients and their carers.

Between 2012 and 2015, the HSE and Genio co-funded four innovative local projects with a view to demonstrating how people with advanced dementia and complex needs could be enabled to live fulfilling lives in their community and to prevent avoidable residential care or hospitalisation. Among the features of the projects, they offered a 12-week intervention providing additional flexible and responsive home care hours including overnight respite and weekend cover as well as telecare devices and other technologies; it is interesting that this bit of the project was less well taken up in general. The project incorporated a dementia education programme for home support staff, an education programme for public health nurses and the adoption of the Zarit caregiver burden interview to assess carer burden. The pilot projects informed the subsequent development of a mainstream community supports model for dementia services. As an organisation we have continued to partner with the HSE in the delivery of the living well with dementia project in south Tipperary since 2015.

A key feature of the pilot programme was personalised supports based on an assessment of the person with dementia and their family carer as a single unit of care. This was a tremendously important generation from our perspective. The pilot projects, as I have mentioned, use the Zarit caregiver burden scale to assess the burden.

I will not bring the committee through the nuances of the various tools for measuring the situation of carers but I would make the point that, from our experience, focussing on burden is a perspective that risks promoting dependence rather than resilience, and we think resilience is a much better way to go in terms of promoting care sustainability.

I am happy to acknowledge that the Department is continuing to explore the best approach to assessing carer need following a recent pilot evaluation of the interRAI module in CHO 2 and we are actively engaging with it in this endeavour.

An early evaluation of the Genio initiatives noted that while the pilots focused on dementia, the learning had the potential to inform the development of many other service areas in Ireland and internationally. The failure to see this potential being realised is disappointing. We share ASI's frustration with the uneven delivery of dementia services and many other elements of our health services. This reflects a frequent lack of coherence across the health and social care system. For example, a recent evaluation of the project in Tipperary argued for additional resources for a local dementia service that is already significantly better resourced than those in the rest of that particular CHO.

In that context, I would like to conclude by repeating a concern that I have voiced to this committee before. Given the experience to date with CHOs and the even stronger focus on regional autonomy in Sláintecare, how are national services to avoid a postcode lottery in national initiatives such as the dementia service or, indeed, the carer guarantee? If we are to do that, it will require practical mechanisms and possibly a detailed service specification to each regional executive officer, and these will have to be informed by appropriate strategies. I refer back to the concept of a single integrated social care strategy that I mentioned earlier. I thank members for their attention. I am happy to answer questions in due course.

I thank Mr. Dunne very much. I am going to open up the discussion to members. I think someone's mobile phone is ringing on silent, so I ask that it would be turned off as it impacts on the broadcasting system. We will go straight into questions.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations this morning and for all the work they are doing in this area, which is challenging. We talk about family carers and the need for them to receive support. One of the problems that has arisen, in particular as it has got more difficult since Covid, is with them getting a break, in other words, two weeks of respite care. What information are the witnesses getting from around the country about the availability of respite care to give a break to the carers? What challenges do they find in dealing with that issue?

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We hear directly from family carers that there are two issues that arise. The first is the struggle to find respite places. Anecdotally, we hear via our service managers, helplines and dementia advisers, that family carers need a break from their caring role and respite is not available.

There is another issue, however, which is that sometimes respite in an institutional setting is not ideal for a person living with dementia. A person living with dementia would like to be in familiar surroundings. They would like to maintain their hobbies and interests and the sense of familiarity, comfort, and knowing who is caring for them. Continuity of care is critical when supporting a person living with dementia. That is not always ideal. Sometimes increased day care, our day care at home service, which offers block hours, and increased psychosocial supports, can also provide very welcome respite. We view respite in a continuum, not just that kind of residential setting.

I am aware there is a challenge. Are there particular areas in the country where there is a greater challenge?

Ms Clodagh Whelan

I do not have that information. We can certainly get it for the Deputy but I would not like to speculate on exactly where the issues are.

Does Ms Whelan accept that it is an important part of-----

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We accept that respite is an issue. That is absolutely the case. Families are struggling.

What changes would the witnesses make for the people who are providing home care? For instance, I have an issue at the moment where a lady is spending four to five hours every day with her elderly mother and her carer's allowance, even though it was only €130 a week, has been withdrawn. I do not understand why it has been withdrawn. We are dealing with an appeal at the moment. I wonder about the supports that are there for home carers.

What would both groups change to give better supports for carers if they were in charge in the morning?

What would both groups change to give better support for carers if they were in charge in the morning?

Mr. John Dunne

I echo the answer to the question earlier. In our experience, residential respite is typically preferred by carers of younger people who regard the respite as a holiday, a break and a chance to socialise. I cannot speak specifically for dementia, but for older people in general, they prefer to have respite at home in a way that sustains their routines. We provide what we call in-home respite but it sounds like day care at home. Regarding the model for this cohort’s population, that is probably the better way to go, which is not to say day centres and the odd residential respite might not be useful.

On the overall situation, I do not think any part of the country has adequate respite. If my feet were put to the coals, I would say that from our experience, CHO 3 is probably the best resourced for this. As an example of the anomalies or inconsistencies I was talking about earlier, Roscommon is probably the best resourced county in the country for in-home respite but CHO 2 overall is not. This means that the people in Roscommon can access in-home respite quite reasonably and the people in Galway and Mayo have very little access to it. Given that those are three areas within a single CHO, the only reason we can see for that geographical anomaly within a single local health structure has to do with history and a reluctance to tackle historical practices and rationalise things. The budget is there. If it was distributed differently, CHO 2 would probably be at the norm in respect of in-home respite. However, because it is not distributed evenly, Roscommon is very well endowed – I do not begrudge it to them – but the rest of the CHO is under-supported with regard to respite.

If I had a magic wand tomorrow, I could not fix this. The fact of the matter is that if the Government doubled the budget overnight, we could not staff it. We have pulled out of providing in-home respite in CHO 4 because historically the pattern there was direct provision by the HSE. As a result, the private providers operating in the area were reduced to operating on the margins and it was impossible to have, over time, a sustainable service that we could maintain ourselves. Therefore, this year we are effectively disengaging from in-home respite and are handing over the packages we are delivering to the HSE and other providers.

Staffing is an issue in home care. How would Mr. Dunne challenge that? In the south-south west area, 1,800 people providing home care were employed by the HSE. After Covid was over, it dropped by 400 and the HSE has had a challenge in trying to replace that 400. What do we need to do to make it attractive to get people into providing home care?

Mr. John Dunne

There is a clear roadmap for this in terms of career pay, career progression and travel costs and time. Even if those three issues were to be addressed and the Government were to say it is putting an extra €100 million on the table for it, that would not solve the problem. The staff are not there. We are not competing against the health service or an unemployment queue; rather we are competing against the retail sector and many similar sections of the economy, all of which are experiencing the same sort of problems. There are clearly things that could and should be improved but there is no magic bullet for this.

Which areas could be improved?

Mr. John Dunne

One thing is pay could be made more attractive. In the short term, there is the issue of travel. The Government has been playing ducks and drakes on the travel front. For a while, there was an argument that there was no need to pay travel time and that was simply because there had not been an Irish test case of the Tyco European case in Spain. They then turned around and said they would pay travel time. However, in constructing the model, they said they were giving €2 for travel time. I pointed out that €2 would get someone about 4 miles down the road. Therefore, a care worker could only work-----

If you were to compare someone in a nursing home at the moment costing on average - and I am taking the very average across the country - about €1,100 per bed, per week with home care, you are talking about nowhere near that figure. You are probably talking about €250 or maybe €300 per week, even when there is someone doing three hours a day for a week.

Mr. John Dunne

The costs depend on the number of hours and the level of dependency. I listed another issue. There is a complete reluctance to differentiate between the level of need and dependency a care worker can encounter. Everybody is paid the same, although clearly we could see scope to focus on perhaps three or four levels of need, and to pay people who are qualified to provide the different levels of need differently. That would give you an internal career structure for home care workers. All of that would be a long-term strategy. It would take ten years to put that in place and roll it out. It is not something that could be done-----

We are having a greater demand in the sense that if you look at the changing age profile of the population-----

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely.

-----it is a challenge that we now have to start planning for. We should have started earlier.

Mr. John Dunne

For a number of years, the Germans, for example, as their solution, shipped people in from the likes of Vietnam. South-east Asia was certainly one of the places. They provided them with three years' training in care in the home. They used them, while they were being trained, to deliver that care, and then they sent them back to Vietnam. The argument was that it was a win-win. The fact of the matter is that with their demographic profile, they could not do it internally themselves. We are into the whole agenda around - dare I say it - migration, where these workers are going to come from and how we are going to find the people we need.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

There is a broader issue about how we as a society value care work. Certainly for people living with dementia, whether they live at home or in a long-term care facility, the care you receive is completely dictated by a healthcare assistant. It is that one-to-one relationship where the person supports you to have a shower. That is the person upholding your human rights and dignity. It is extremely skilled work, and on how we as a society look at that work, it is certainly not valued in terms of pay, travel time and career progression. It is skilled work, and there are care workers who do not have a career path. We would suggest that we need to look into that. Are there supervisory roles? Could they become subject matter experts in aspects of care, all the while knowing that their pay and conditions can improve incrementally?

The Deputy mentioned the person who is struggling financially caring for their mother, who is living with dementia. That is something that is important to look at, and that we know from our research with Family Carers Ireland. It was based on 2022 data that at least 50% of family carers of people living with dementia were struggling financially. We had our own research in 2023 that bore that out again. For a lot of carers, the stress of caring is being intensified by that financial burden. Something that is really worrying for us as an organisation is that we know that family carers can be isolated and lonely. They can have poor mental health. Over 20% of them told us that they were cutting back on socialising or seeing family and friends. They actually call those expenses non-essential but we would view them as utterly essential for their own wellbeing.

To go back to what Mr. Dunne said, if you take that analogy of putting on your own oxygen mask first, the family carer needs to be able to have those social outlets in order to fulfil their caring role.

I thank Ms Whelan. Again, if there is time, we might get a second round of questions in. I want to invite Deputy Pauline Tully, who is substituting for Deputy David Cullinane. She is very welcome to the committee this morning.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Good morning to everyone. First, I want to acknowledge the Cavan branch of the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland because it is embarking on an ambitious project to make Cavan a dementia-inclusive county. I know there are a number of public meetings coming up, and I want to acknowledge Carole Beattie and all the supporters of the Alzheimer's Society branch in Cavan for the work they do. I also want to acknowledge the work that both of the witnesses' organisations do to support carers and people with dementia.

We are talking about supports for people with dementia and those who are caring for them.

It can be a frightening time when somebody is first diagnosed with dementia. What kinds of supports are there for people in the early stages of dementia, including when they have just been diagnosed? It is a frightening time and people do not know what is ahead of them.

Some family carers looking after people with dementia need more help in understanding the disease. As one family carer said to me, you could get very frustrated when a person with dementia will not lift his or her foot. It is not that the person is not hearing or understanding the carer; it is just that the brain does not send the message to the foot to move. Families need to understand those types of things as quickly as possible. I spoke to a person whose father has dementia associated with Parkinson's disease. I know there are different types of dementia, which can be quite specific. This woman said she would have loved it if someone had handed her and her family a pack to explain exactly what dementia is. There are brilliant online courses but not everybody is computer savvy and not everybody has the time to avail of them.

Another suggestion made to me was for RTÉ or another of our television stations to run a short campaign on dementia. There are so many people with the disease and, therefore, many families affected by it. Those numbers are set to increase. I am thinking of the Irish Heart Foundation's face, arms speech and time, FAST, campaign to get the message out about what to do in the case of stroke. Even a couple of minutes of key messages about dementia could help many people.

Loneliness is an issue for many, especially in rural Ireland where there may be no supports and people are dependent on the HSE or an agency providing care. Care packages may be approved but the carers are often not there to provide them. People may be left in a situation, possibly at short notice, where a carer cannot come. They just have to cope and that is very difficult. Even when carers are available, they may not be trained in dementia care. As a previous speaker mentioned, more dementia-specific training needs to be rolled out for carers. That is very important.

I am aware of somebody who recently ended up in hospital for a reason separate from the person's dementia. This individual tried to leave the hospital in the middle of the night not understanding why they were there. The person was then sent to the psychiatric ward and detained there for a number of weeks. That was not a suitable place for the patient but the hospital staff either did not know how to manage the care or did not have the resources to do so. I understand that the hospital is totally understaffed and did not have the resources to keep the person with dementia safe on the ward. The only thing staff could think of doing was referring the patient to the psychiatric ward. That was unfair on both the individual and the staff.

There is a need for much more awareness of dementia among our health professionals as well as within families. The model of care is there under the different initiatives and pilot programmes. It is a question of what it will take to resource the care properly to ensure every person gets the supports he or she needs.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I thank the Deputy for her comments about our Cavan activities and her ongoing support for them. She asked about where people can go for help when they get a diagnosis and what signposting there is to available supports. As with any diagnosis, people with dementia are put into a different environment, with different language, various pathways, etc. It can be very frightening. I went through it with my mum many years ago. Regarding the advice initially, our helpline is there and it had more than 6,500 interactions last year. The helpline operators provide a listening ear, initial advice and the material required to understand the situation.

In the past few years, we have rolled out the concept of a dementia adviser, of whom there is one in each county. When anyone rings me about a loved one who has received a diagnosis, I point that person towards the dementia adviser, who is a one-stop shop in terms of the services available, whether clinical, psychosocial or carer supports, within that county. I encourage and urge people to use the service, which has been very successful over the past number of years.

It provides that link for the person and the family over the following months or years, and throughout the journey. It is a frightening area. There is a lot of new language and there are different pieces and lots of moving parts even with the model of care.

The Deputy also mentioned the practicalities for families, and that resonates with us. We deliver family care training annually, which is dementia-specific, has won numerous awards and has been validated through research. More than 650 people went through that last year and there are six modules. It is down to the practicalities - the simple stuff that can be done in the house or home, which makes things a bit easier. It explains some of the responsive actions and activities by people with the condition. We are certainly looking to expand that as much as possible, through fundraised money, donations and HSE funding. We certainly have plans to increase that. However, following a study last year, we have also found that on occasion people are not ready when they come to the first one or two modules. There is a requirement for a degree of counselling. There are all of the emotions of a loved one being diagnosed and having that diagnosis. The first one or two modules are quasi-counselling to an extent. We urge, and are looking to further explore this year, the concept of that counselling or psychotherapeutic input for families. On the training, I met a man in west Clare last summer whose wife had been diagnosed. We had a good chat. Just from what I heard him say, I said the family carer training was for him. He has started that in the past few weeks, and his life at home has changed in terms of the practicalities he is picking up.

The Deputy also mentioned the campaigns. I refer to the National Dementia Services, formerly the National Dementia Office, and the Understand Together part of that. It is very much about public awareness of what dementia is, and how to become dementia friendly and inclusive. It is a whole-of-society approach. We can open the day service in Cavan or Monaghan, but there is a lot more in those communities to also support the person. A lot of that is about destigmatisation. We have worked well on that over the years. From my travels around the country I see those levels of stigma have reduced, but not everywhere. In more rural areas, in particular, that level is still there. That is where you are looking at the whole-of-community response. As the Deputy mentioned, we will be doing that in the Cavan area with friends of ASI. We try to do work with the local community, church, GAA club and so on because we all play a part.

The Deputy's fourth point was about acute services. This is something we have been pushing. In fairness, a number of the acute hospitals have dementia specialist nurses at a senior enough level. That is to provide dementia awareness within the acute setting, because somebody with dementia can be traumatised going through accident and emergency. Going through certain diagnostic screenings can be very upsetting for someone as well. There is a lot of work, and that has also been accepted within that acute sector. The HSE has appointed a number of those, although I do not have the figures. It is certainly something we have been pushing for in positive behaviour supports, PBS, in recent years.

The final point was about the model of care. I wanted to focus in on the model of care in my opening statement as well because it is a game-changer. It is something that is not seen across Europe. It is part of the strategy we embarked on ten years ago. It has been launched now and has all the pieces. It sets out that pathway. There are certain elements of that in place at the moment with regional specialist memory services and intellectual disability, ID, services. However, the plans for 2024 are also being impacted by the recruitment embargo. We would hate to see a loss of momentum in what is a very important piece of work, and an important framework for the future of dementia in Ireland. That pathway provided for within the model of care is pretty unique in the European setting too. We have to make it work, implement it, and get that ring-fenced funding on a multi-annual basis.

We have to move on. Deputy Hourigan is next.

Welcome to everybody. I want to stay on the issues of the regional roll-out, access and the postcode lottery, in light of the fact that we are moving to Sláintecare and have just seen the appointment of some of the senior roles in the CHOs. This relates to the last point about how we achieve parity of care across the CHOs and what the witnesses would like to see in that regard. Is it an audit? Is it a benchmark standard document that goes out? What would be their comfort level and what would work in terms of ensuring that CHOs are providing a baseline standard? Obviously, CHOs have a choice about where they prioritise funding and I do not think anybody is suggesting that they do not, because that is the point of regional set-ups. I am interested, in terms of organisation, in what our guests would like to see.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I will address the question of Sláintecare and national programmes. I was at a round-table discussion with the CEO of the HSE in the last few months and one of the questions I asked centred on national programmes vis-à-vis autonomy at a regional level. I asked whether there was a fear or risk that some of the programmes may be diluted because someone in a particular CHO sees the primary objective or focus being on something other than dementia or whether the national programmes would still apply at the regional level. The approach to the allocation of home care, for example, has always been highly fragmented across the different CHOs and I would imagine my colleagues in Family Carers Ireland have a view on that too. We operate across the seven CHOs and the allocation of what we provide in tandem with the HSE can be very CHO-specific. We would be looking for a fairly significant clarification of the definition of the services because the nature of our home care is very different-----

What Mr. Heffernan is describing to me sounds like a benchmark standard rather than an audit process.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

Yes. I bring it back to my lay interpretation of the different types of home care. Different language is used but I would go back to what I would call the continuum or spectrum of home care. On one side there is task-based care, which is about providing more generic services like getting people up in the morning, getting them showered and ready for the day and so on. We provide dementia-specific care, which tends to be that bit longer at two to three hours. Care is provided by people who are trained in the area of dementia and who have significant experience and there is a continuity of care. Then we have what is called day care at home, which would have first arisen during Covid. This is a replication of what happened in day care centres on a one-to-one basis. Once again, it is usually in three to four-hour blocks. That is very much about psychotherapeutic, psychosocial and cognitive interventions but there may also be an element of what the person in the middle does. There is a bit of movement across all three areas. Different people have a different understanding of what home care means. Even in terms of definitions, the criteria, who provides it and how they do it-----

Mr. Heffernan would like every CHO to have a standard book, so to speak.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

Yes, because then it would not be so open to interpretation. I have to say that we work very well with the CHOs, particularly on services for older persons, but there are different approaches, which makes it difficult for us as a national organisation.

It sounds like Mr. Heffernan is seeking very clear boundaries and clarity for operations.

Mr. John Dunne

That is the only way to do it but I would urge caution for two reasons. First, historically, that has not been enough. Even when there has been an agreed single national service plan, which presumably incorporated what was going to be done everywhere, there were still lots of discrepancies or unevenness at local level. I mentioned CHO 2 earlier. Overall, the expenditure on carer respite is pretty much in line with the model but on the ground it operates differently because of historic anomalies which have not been addressed. CHO 2 is not the worst in the country for that however.

CHO 1 is a bit of a legend in its lifetime to the extent that the new structures will split it but there will still be boundaries based on structures that no longer exist in the health service yet are still, operationally, what determines the day-to-day. I go back to strategy as well as, let us say, a service specification being issued. If that is not done at a high enough level and there is a 1,000-page specification issued to every regional body, it can still do what it likes with that because it is so complicated. It is a question of having a strategy pitched at a level that is coherent and at the same time allows the discretion. When we heard from the Department of Health first that it would rather not develop or refresh the carer strategy and that it would like to do a social care strategy, our initial reaction was horror because we spent a lot of time fighting to get it to look at family carers. When you realise that the same officials juggle eight different strategies, you find yourself asking, hang on a minute, what is the merit in that? I said to the officials at the time that there was a political challenge in this so they should have a single strategy that is coherent and integrated and then have appendices so that each of the existing, let us say, interest groups could see their agenda and how it is addressed in the integrated strategy but they would have one strategy to map onto, not eight.

Ms Clare Duffy

On Deputy Hourigan's question about the regional disparities, a specific example, as Deputy Burke mentioned earlier, is respite. There is a precursor to all of this when it comes to respite, which is just figuring out what respite we have, for whom and where. We know so little about respite. In fact, the only thing we know about respite is that there is not nearly enough of it.

To be clear, is there no central register of where all of our respite places are?

Mr. John Dunne

They tried it twice in the HSE.

Ms Clare Duffy

We suggested that we begin to do an audit or map of respite provision and we started it approximately ten years ago with the HSE. Approximately a decade ago, ASI did a similar exercise with a mapping of dementia services. We wanted to steal that lovely model the ASI developed and do it for respite. We are still calling for that. We need to do an audit of respite provision to establish what respite is available where and for whom.

This seems crazy to me. It speaks to my question around whether we are looking at a benchmark or an audit. How can one know what service one is providing if one does not know what services one has?

Mr. John Dunne

I will give an example of the complexities. The first is a respite centre temporarily reassigned for step-down beds. There are four beds in a centre and for one particular weekend, a child is put into one of those beds. That then stops being an adult facility. The other three beds can no longer be counted as adult beds. To be fair to the system-----

That sounds like we need a live register, not that we do not need a register.

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. Do not get me wrong; I am all in favour of a register. As I said, we have been trying. It is not that people are saying they could not be bothered doing this; it is very much a moving target.

It is just complex. I hope there is a second round because I have many questions. On the regional roll-out, I am looking at the memory clinics. If other people were here, I would go through with a fine-tooth comb which staff are where, but there are ten roles and four clinics. There are ten roles or categories within each clinic. In terms of regional roll-out and parity of access, how is that working?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

It is a work in motion at the moment. There are regional memory service clinics, a number of which have been in place for a number of years. There are excellent ones in Tallaght and St. James's. There is also the national intellectual disability memory service. This is very much within the HSE and the NDO. I am conscious of giving the Deputy information or details.

I am asking for the impression of how it is working because the witnesses are the ones on the ground.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I think it has been working well. The model was only launched last May or June. The plans for 2024 were ambitious, which we welcomed. There was approval of a range of posts from consultant down that would have given effect to those where we do not have the numbers because there is a set headcount for each of those clinics. Unfortunately, they have been caught up in the embargo on recruitment.

That is my sense. As I say, we do link in with the national dementia services. A question I have on my agenda every time is where are we in terms of the memory services but they have been bogged down and impacted by the embargo.

Does the idea that there are six CHOs and four clinics jump out at the ASI as being problematic in any way?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

Yes, we would like the implementation in terms of the plans for, I think, five regional specialties and between ten and 12 memory assessment units thereafter. Of course we want that, yes.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

There is a hub and spokes model in place. The hub is the larger memory clinic and then there are spokes to that but they all link in and talk to one another.

Is the current roll-out the first phase?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

It is the first phase, which builds on particular approaches and clinics that had been in operation for a number of years. Often they were developed by individual clinicians who had an interest and built up that particular service, be it the one in Tallaght hospital or the one in St. James's Hospital.

Is that in acute settings?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

Yes.

Reference has been made to the different approaches of the CHOs and concerns about regional health authorities in that regard. Please come back to us about this matter as the organisations present probably do not have time now. As a committee, we engage all of the time about these issues, particularly the roll-out of the RHAs. If our guests have particular concerns about this area of dementia, they might come back to us about them. As we will not have enough time to go into this, that would be really helpful. As a committee, we certainly will pursue this at our meetings with top officials.

This is a very important session for the committee and we all have an interest in this subject. I do not think that there are many people who have not been affected by dementia in the form of a family member suffering from it, and I include myself in that.

The figures are quite stark. In the next 20 years, the number of people living with dementia will have more than doubled. Obviously people are living longer and that is an extremely good thing. However, some people will ask why are people developing dementia. Is there a reason the figures is exponentially rising? How common is it for people under the age of 55 to develop dementia and is that number increasing? Is there any reason for the prevalence of dementia other than people living longer?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

There are 64,000 people living with dementia in Ireland and that number is set to more than double. The reasons are multifaceted. One of key reasons is that the general population across the world is increasing but there are also several dementia risk factors. However, there are ways to reduce a person's risk and prevent dementia over time. We are increasingly becoming more aware of those factors. In lower and middle-income countries, as dementia is just coming out, people are being diagnosed more. These are the key reasons the number of people living with dementia is increasing. Unfortunately, the incidence of younger onset of dementia is also on the rise.

Between 2,900 and 4,300 people live with dementia in Ireland. Members may notice that I keep saying "around" rather than "approximately" but that is because, unfortunately, we do not have a dementia registry here in Ireland. Dementia registries are essential for planning services, ensuring quality and making sure that we support people living with dementia in the right way. The ASI has supported work towards a registry since 2018, as far as I am aware. We now have research that was commissioned by our national dementia service so we know what a minimum data set should like and we know what we need to do to set up a dementia registry but, unfortunately, we think that work has now been delayed to the HSE's hiring freeze.

It seems odds that there is no registry or a collection of data.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes. Lots of other countries like ours have invested in registries and they have been really positive. A registry helps clinicians and organisations such as ourselves.

Even when we are talking about geographical disparities and inequalities one can imagine how incredible it would be for us to be able to say that a certain amount of people living with dementia are here and we have a certain amount of family carers there. It would help us to plan services if we could feed into that important information.

It is extraordinary that such a register is not in place.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It is. Yes.

Is there any reason?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

We are coming from a low base of dementia services and dementia funding in Ireland. It has increased in recent years and we have had great engagement. The National Dementia Office came around with the national dementia strategy and it has been doing incredible work on this. The desire is there to have a register. As I said, there was a position going into the National Dementia Services but it is our understanding that it has been paused due to the HSE hiring freeze, which is unfortunate.

How beneficial would a register be for the roll-out of services, for carers and those living with dementia?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It would be huge and could be transformative. We would know how many people are in each location and what we need to plan for. We say there are 64,000 people living with dementia in Ireland but to be honest, there are probably a lot more as we do not know exactly how many people are living with younger-onset dementia and we do not know specifically what types of people are living with dementia. As we are estimating, it is incredibly hard to plan services and supports when we do not even know exactly how many people we are dealing with.

Do other jurisdictions in the European Union, for example, have a registry?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes. Other countries have dementia registries and they have invested in them. It is incredibly complex to set up something like a dementia registry. I do not believe we can shy away from how difficult that work would be. In 2018, we conducted a feasibility study carried out by DCU and supported by the Alzheimer Society of Ireland. Further work was invested in this in 2021. Out of this work came a minimum data set, which is very important. We can show the minimum information we would need to make a dementia registry work. There is Covid, GDPR and lots of other things tied up in the development of a registry but it is something we would all love to see.

Is there a mean age at which the onset of dementia could manifest itself?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Young-onset dementia, which occurs before the age of 65-----

How common would that be for those aged under 65?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It is estimated that between 2,900 and 4,300 people are living with-----

It is less than 7%.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It is a relatively small number but we must remember that people who have young-onset dementia have vastly different needs to people who are diagnosed later in life. They might have mortgages, they might be raising families or they might be coaching the local GAA team. Our anecdotal evidence is that the diagnosis is so different. We know people in their 40s and 50s who are living with dementia. Traditionally it has always been seen as an older person's disease but we know now that it is not. We are seeing more and more people coming forward to our groups.

I am throwing a lot of questions at Dr. O'Philbin. Is genetic or hereditary dementia common?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

The genetic factor is not quite as large as it is made out to be necessarily and particularly in the kind of later onset dementia, which is people over the age of 65. It does have a slightly larger impact in younger people. It is not necessarily deterministic, however. I should say I am not a clinician and so am not qualified to answer 100% on that.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

It is fair to say there are 12 modifiable risk factors for dementia.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes, there are 12 modifiable risk factors for dementia that are backed up by evidence-based consensus where research shows they have the possibility to potentially delay or prevent up to 40% of dementia across the world. It sounds like those risk factors might be extremely complex but they are actually not. Usually addressing those risk factors would prevent stroke or cancer. If we have time, I would love to take the committee through those risk factors because it is very important that we are all aware and understand them.

With late onset dementia, where a person develops dementia at a very late stage in their life, possibly in their late 70s or 80s, what is the diagnosis in relation to that? My mother was diagnosed with late onset dementia.

I was slightly fearful about what was going to happen. I know each person is different. It did not develop into something that we all thought it was going to be, and it stabilised. I do not know how common that is. Is it common for someone to be diagnosed so late in their life?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

People are diagnosed at different ages. What we do know is that for people who have dementia, their brain changes start to happen decades in advance. It is the case that for some people diagnosed with dementia it might be relatively stable while others progress quite quickly. The Alzheimer's Society in the UK says that the early stage lasts an average of two years but it really depends from person to person. When you have met one person with dementia, you have met one person with dementia so, unfortunately, it is very tricky even for planning because the people we work with are so different.

Treatment has been evolving in recent decades. What is at the cutting edge of non-invasive treatment or drugs? Is there any bespoke treatment that Dr. O'Philbin would suggest for dementia care?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes. We think cognitive stimulation therapy is very important. That is one of the most popular psychosocial treatments for people living with dementia. It also really depends on the person. Some people benefit quite a lot from reminiscence therapy, which is what my PhD was on. Even things like counselling, psychotherapeutic support and interventions can be transformative because they can help to reduce anxiety and stressful feelings that can sometimes impact the symptoms that a person is experiencing. In the Alzheimer Society of Ireland we say that we need to look at the person as a whole and see what they are interested in. In terms of psychosocial interventions, cognitive stimulation therapy is really important and so are exercise-based interventions. We have an ExWell programme in several hospitals, which is run by the HSE.

What is that?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It is called ExWell and it is run by the HSE. It is a clinician-supervised exercise programme, typically for older people. We have interacted with it. People living with dementia have attended the programme. They really enjoyed it and felt that it added joy and-----

I thank Dr. O'Philbin.

I apologise for my late arrival. I welcome the witnesses this morning. I have watched with interest what they have had to say.

From my own experience of dealing with constituents, this is a very important subject because it is forever where the carers are concerned. The carer has to deal with a situation that changes from time to time and gets inexorably worse. Unless family members are readily at hand to interchange with them, carers have found themselves in situations where they are stuck with the job 24-7 and because the patient's condition may vary, they are uneasy all the time. They are under pressure and stress and they really do not know what to do.

There is also the question of carer fatigue, which kicks in as well. At the present time, there are quite a number of carers all over the country who have cared 24-7 for patients in various conditions, who are at their wits' end, insofar as giving themselves a break is concerned. I know there is respite care and so on and so forth but it needs to be looked at again. It needs to be improved in such a way as to ensure that the carer can rely on some help or support being available more regularly and more readily available than it has been in the past. I know that there are competing demands but the situation is pressing and serious and it is not going to go away.

I happened to be on the Eastern Health Board many years ago with a member who began suffering from Alzheimer's and, unfortunately, he passed away early in life.

I think it was an introduction for all of us as to the severity of the condition and the options available to the family, the supporters, the carers and so on. My question is simply on what advances are being made now on the medical side to deal with the situation. Are there advances dealing with specific aspects of the particular situation? Can these be relied upon indefinitely with the view to improving the quality of the life for the patient and the carers as well? Is anything happening in that area? Medicine is making many advances now. That is one area that would be useful and helpful.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

When the Deputy says “medical advances”, does he mean drug treatments and pharmacological advances? Is that his question?

Yes, anything that helps.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

We have two credible treatment options for early-stage Alzheimer’s disease and mild cognitive impairment. They are not yet approved by the European Medicines Agency. One is lecanemab and the other is donanemab. These are immunotherapies that are said to slow down or delay the progression of Alzheimer’s disease. Lecanemab is currently under consideration by the European Medicines Agency and we expect a decision on that in a matter of months as to whether it will be approved in Europe. I need to stress to everyone that these treatments are exciting and they are first-generation drugs. The hope is that we can build on them and have a suite of options for people in the future. However, they are not cures and they are only suitable for a small number of people. They are not perfect and they have side effects. While we are thinking about and certainly need to prepare for this new era and new pipeline of dementia-related drugs and therapies, we also need to continue investing in and supporting people through services and supports.

What steps are being taken, if any, to increase the level of support that might be available by way of new age drugs and so on? Testing drugs at European level and at our own level as well is a slow process. We tend very often to test drugs all over again with resultant delays. Why that exists, I do not know. What can and should be done now in the short term to, as it were, help concentrate the minds of the people who are doing the testing with a view to bringing results to the table at an earlier stage?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

In my experience, for the many people who are invested in dementia-specific drugs, such as Dementia Trials Ireland, which was funded in 2021 and is aiming to triple the number of clinical trials available to people living with dementia, it is more the system that slows things down. Obviously, they cannot bring a drug to market or test drugs on people that might not be 100% safe. However, hope does not just come from pharmacological treatments, however important they are. There is also hope in knowing that if you receive a diagnosis of dementia, you will have your dementia adviser, adequate home care, day care at home, a day centre and activities to go to. These things need to happen in tandem. There are people for whom drugs will not be acceptable or who might not want them in the same way there are people who do not want to attend certain services. In the short term, we need further investment in supports and services for people living with dementia while we ready ourselves for the possibility of pharmacological treatments.

Has Dr. O’Philbin done any work with regard to costing and how it might be within our grasp to do that and deliver in the shorter term with a view to recognising the severity and seriousness of the condition, the need to do something quickly and, at the same time, be able to do it within reason within budget?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes. The health medicines agency will be considering the costing. There is much debate about it in the US. The truth is we do not know how much it could cost in Ireland and I do not wish to speculate on that.

I think Ms Whelan was trying to come in.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

When we talk about disease modifying therapies, it is important to remember that the ones that are available now that we are discussing will only ever be for a very small cohort of people. As Dr. O’Philbin mentioned, services and supports bring hope as well. As an organisation we are very ambitious for the lives of people impacted by dementia. We believe we need to take a rights-based approach to their lives. We need to understand that there is a trajectory of the disease.

We spoke about people living with young-onset dementia. They are people like us in the room. They have jobs and families. Dementia is no longer simply an older person living in a nursing home. However, we are hopeful and ambitious for their lives right through the trajectory of the disease. We really hope that the Government and the State will ready themselves for those disease-modifying therapies but we can never forget that concurrently, we have to work on services and supports.

Our day care at home services are a really good example of that. Sometimes we tend to view care as the shower, the toilet, going to bed or getting up in the morning. Those things are foundational and they will never not be important but we are ambitious for the lives of people living with dementia. We want them to take walks, listen to music, to have hobbies and interests and to be in their communities. Our day care at home service offers that social support that all of us need. We talk a lot about care, helping people get out of bed, have a shower and get dressed. My question would be, what are they getting dressed for? What are they then doing? It is really important that we have the two things happening in parallel: the focus on investment, learning and readying ourselves for the drug therapies that we hope will come, while we still improve services and supports for everyone impacted by dementia.

We are improving the situation by encouraging sufferers to have an interest outside just worrying about the condition that has befallen them, and their family worrying about it likewise. It is about them taking an interest to divert their attention, and to get their attention. I think it is obviously-----

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We talk about activities for people with dementia but the best activity is living your life. Whatever the person wants to do, we want to support them to live their lives.

Okay. I have only 30 seconds left so I might come back in again if we have the time.

Yes, if we have time. I am going to give a comfort break in about a half an hour. That will take ten minutes off. I will move on to Senator Frances Black next.

I want to most sincerely thank the witnesses for the phenomenal work they are all doing, for coming into the committee today and sharing their experience and expertise with us. This is an absolutely vital issue, and there is no about it, we are living in an ageing society, where issues of dignity, autonomy and care are going to become more relevant as a greater proportion of society will rely on various forms of assistance to their own lives. It is so important that we design policies and support people with dementia, and particularly their carers.

Regarding the area I want to touch on, the witnesses have touched on it a little bit but I want to get a little bit more information around therapeutic care. With regard to somebody who is diagnosed with dementia, I can imagine the anxiety, fear and stress and all that comes along with it. How is that dealt with from a therapeutic side of things? What is the process, and is there enough care in that area from the witnesses' perspectives? Coming to the families in particular, I would imagine there are the same emotions but also grief. I imagine that for the person who has dementia, and their families, there is a certain amount of grief that goes along with it because there is that fear around losing a bit of themselves and what they are going to lose. Then for the family members, it is about losing their loved one, and where they are going to go. There is probably huge anxiety and stress, and then when things start to shift, do family members get angry when they see their loved one?

I can only share my own experience with my mother. She was never diagnosed with dementia but she had a little bit of senility, and there was huge fear in it. I have seen cases. I was in an emergency ward one time where there was a woman who had some form of dementia. Her son was with her and he was really frustrated with her because she kept getting up and walking away. I wonder about the therapeutic care, and how vital and important it is. What is there, and what can be done better? That is what I am trying to look at, for both people with dementia and their carers.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

Generally, in terms of diagnosis, I think it is an Irish thing that we tend to default to the worst outcome and the very end as opposed to thinking about what happens between now and that end. We will all have an end. The point I would make is that there is a lot of living to be done. A diagnosis can be difficult for individuals and families because of the fear factor set out by the Senator. However, people can live well and live better, and that is the message we want to get out.

Regarding psychotherapeutic inputs, we have found, through our family carer training, that some of the initial modules are nearly fully taken up with the emotional needs of the family members undertaking the training. They have not fully come to terms with their loved ones having dementia and what that means for the next number of years. We are very supportive of that aspect of the training. There are organisations out there providing that type of support but we want to look at it ourselves in terms of where we can go with it and how we can knit it into our own services. We hope to progress something on that this year. It is a hugely important part of support provision, which moves away from the catastrophising of the initial diagnosis. As I said, there is a life that has to be lived.

Reference was made to someone with dementia being on a board and people seeing that type of involvement over the years. Lots of people with dementia are living very good lives. Many of them are part of working groups within our organisation and are members of our board. I work with people across Ireland and Europe who have dementia. They are no different from anybody else other than needing particular supports. A lot of the practicality around what supports are required is common sense but people need to be taught about it and made aware of the requirements.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

As we know, caring can be very rewarding and fulfilling but it can also be very stressful, as Deputy Durkan mentioned. The national carers' strategy states that family carers should be supported to maintain their own health and well-being. We produced a research paper last year entitled The Experience of Dementia in Ireland: A Snapshot in Time. It would be remiss of me not to highlight the huge personal struggles that both people living with dementia and family carers are facing. Their mental health is really poor. People are dealing with stress, anxiety, burnout and worry about the future. Of course, there are people out there who are living well but there are also people who are struggling. We have those two cohorts.

People with dementia need psychological support to come to terms with their diagnosis and deal with their anxiety about the future. Family carers need that support in the same way. We found that one of the biggest challenges for people in being able to continue their caring role is juggling their work and other parts of their life with caring, which includes having to ring the public health nurse to find supports and services. Carers' lives change dramatically. We found that 43% of carers reported below average mental health, with 16% reporting it as poor. A total of 31% of people with dementia rated their mental health as poor, with 32% rating it as fair.

I have been working in dementia research for a long time. A lot of things people said to me when we were collecting the data over the phone will stick with me for a long time. It is really clear that people are struggling. Provision in this area stands out as a critical support gap, as outlined in our pre-budget submissions. Family Carers Ireland provides counselling services but, as far as I am aware, they are consistently oversubscribed. People with dementia need really specific communication strategies and tools. It is brilliant that our organisation is able to pilot some kinds of psychotherapeutic supports specifically for people living with dementia. Research internationally shows that the optimal mix of supporting family carers of people living with dementia is psychotherapeutic support plus family carer education. Mr. Heffernan spoke about our family carer training. A mix of those provisions is really important in supporting people.

Mr. John Dunne

The Senator has raised an interesting question. The language in dementia is around responsive behaviours, whereas the language in supporting children with complex conditions and additional needs is around behaviours that challenge. We do a lot of training in this areas. There are two ways to approach it. One is to understand, which is obviously important to stretch the sympathy, if that is the right phrase. The second aspect is managing the condition. There is a third aspect, which is handling it, I hesitate to say "positively".

I mentioned the word resilience earlier on, and the importance of promoting resilience. We have a danger of talking ourselves into a bit of a quagmire by defining everything as hopelessly sinking down. It could easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy if people start thinking that way. The asset-based approach we try to adopt obviously does not work for everybody, but surprisingly works for more people than you might think. It helps them steady the ship, look at what they have going positively for them, look at what potential they can bring in with additional support and see if they can stabilise it. One of our earliest realisations when it came to supporting carers was that not everybody can continue caring. People get to the end of the road, where it is just not reasonable or practical anymore. Recognising that as a step means when you work back from that you can then differentiate other gradations.

There is definitely a great demand for counselling. I am not sure the system is generally as good as it could be. It is a fixed intervention. If you need another round at the end of it you go around again. However, a surprising number of people come off after the first round with clearly measured and sustainable improvements in their situation. The trick to getting counselling for people, is to get people in crisis back to a sustainable routine. In that context, while the counselling is obviously one to one, we are looking at beginning to develop resilience training. That will be a group thing. For people who are maybe at the point of tipping into a potential crisis, and are at the upper end of struggling, we hope group training might help them avoid that worst case. At the risk of sounding a bit to the right of Attila the Hun, there is interesting research at the moment that talks about how processing all of this stuff psychosocially is not always necessarily the best way to go. The norm now is that you cannot and should not bottle it up. You should get it out there and process it, and when it is all sorted it will go away. No, there are definitely arguments and evidence that suggest in some situations that is not the best way to go. It is not the best way to encourage it.

I will illustrate another issue with an example. When the health system looks at a carer, it looks at a carer from the toolbox it has. It tends to medicalise caring. It would say there is an issue there that requires counselling. There is no point counselling someone who does not have enough money, unless you do something about the money as well. One of the things we do, which I am proud of, is this wraparound approach. If that is the issue, we do not just deal with the counselling bit, we also try to deal with the practicalities. It is a complicated issue. I go back to the idea of trying to promote a positive approach. People talk about the stigma of dementia. What is the stigma? It is a condition you have developed. You do not say the stigma of breaking your leg. Fear is behind it all - fear of the person who has it, fear of the family and the deep fear of the community. I remember asking a group of carers quite early on what we could do for them. A male carer said that if he was in the pub with a group of his friends or people he has met, he would love if there was not an awkward silence when he told them he was a carer when they asked what he did. I have often wondered what the hell is behind the awkward silence. Do people feel in awe of this person, or do they wonder if they will be contaminated? There is a bit of the same about the stigma associated with dementia. We can try to take these things positively. With my mother, and as Deputy Kenny was saying, it was a thing that happened. She forgot things. It became a bit of a joke. It did not stop her doing crosswords and enjoying them. She recognised she might not get them all out. You can cope with this. It is a bit like years ago when you heard the word cancer you asked how many weeks you had. It is still a scary diagnosis, but at least if you hear it you ask how you will go forward. That is where we need to go with a lot of conditions, for both carers and the person being cared for.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We did the first course for people living with dementia about their own human rights. It was called rights made real. It taught them about the concept of human rights, and how to exercise their human rights. One lady told us that she went home, sat her family down and told them things had to change - she had rights. That is what we are hoping for. People were using the information they learned at medical appointments.

As well as family carer training, we have to focus on empowering people living with dementia to ask for what they want, to ensure that they are not just recipients of care. That is really important.

Ms Clare Duffy

Of course there is the emotional side of it and a lot of our time is spent supporting carers around that but we also spend an awful lot of time supporting families with practical stuff because at some stage, that practical stuff has to kick in. A lot of our time is spent fighting for better supports and rights for carers and on things like the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Act, which supports carers who are working and juggling caring with work. A lot of our time at the moment is being spent on the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act, which was commenced less than a year ago and which has brought with it a raft of complexity. Of course we endorse the principles of the Act but it has made life very difficult and confusing for the families of people with dementia. It potentially adds a layer of complexity for people with dementia and their families where they need residential or nursing home care, particularly if they are taking out the fair deal loan. It adds to the complexity of that because they have to go to the Circuit Court. Of course we support families emotionally but practical support is so important as well. We try to make life better for them from a practical point of view.

Senator Hoey, who is online, is next. Please confirm that you are in Leinster House.

Yes I am. I am in my office. Thanks for facilitating my participation from here. I thank everyone for their presentations today. I was struck by what was said about our tendency to think of dementia or Alzheimer's as being an older persons' disease but this is no longer the case. I would like our guests to tell us a little bit more about the needs of those with early onset dementia and those around them. They mentioned that their needs are different to those of people for whom onset is after 65. What are those needs and how are they currently being met? All of our guests today have outlined the additional resources and supports that are needed but where are we at in terms of support in that particular area?

Reference was made to the recruitment freeze. Are there any specific examples of projects that have been paused or held back or which are in stasis due to the recruitment freeze? Obviously we know that people are not being hired but are there any specific projects or services that are now in limbo because of the freeze? If so, perhaps our guests could allude to the impact that will have on those who need to receive that service.

I was also struck by the question about what people are getting dressed for. I have spoken to some of our guests previously about carers in a different context and the difficulty of trying to build a reason for getting up, sometimes for the carer and sometimes for the person receiving care. We have talked about mental capacity, well-being, depression and so on. Society needs to do more in terms of not seeing dementia as the end. We have a slightly different perspective on cancer, for example, so how do we, as a society, move ourselves towards that, notwithstanding all of the work that both Family Carers Ireland and the Alzheimer Society of Ireland are doing?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

In relation to younger-onset dementia, which is diagnosis before the age of 65, we are talking about people who could be in their 30s, but most typically are in their 40s, 50s and 60s. Their needs differ from those of older people and current dementia services are not actually that helpful for them. They might go into a day centre in their 50s but the other people in the centre might be in their 70s or 80s and they are just at different points in their lives. The 50-year-old could have a young family at home, be thinking about other things and have different interests. Research that we commissioned and research that the dementia services unit in the HSE has commissioned shows that currently dementia services are targeted more towards older people and are not acceptable to people with young-onset dementia. They do not want to go and spend time with people who are in a completely different age bracket. They just feel that it is not suitable.

A lot of them may be more active. They may not have mobility challenges and so may want to do hiking, swimming or football, for example. In the past couple of weeks, I have been doing a lot of research around different interventions across the world for people with younger-onset dementia. There is really innovative stuff like hiking clubs and canoeing. They want to do the same things they were doing until they got their diagnosis. They still want to be the same person, to coach the GAA team, to go to the library, the match or the music club, whatever it may be. In 2022, we published evidence-based and consensus-led guidance on how community groups can support people living with younger-onset dementia. It is not just about creating specific services for this cohort, it is about opening up our local communities to make our services more inclusive for a person with younger-onset dementia. They may want to go to the men's shed or the library or they may work in the local charity shop. We have all been talking about when you get this diagnosis of dementia, you do not become this person who attends this specific service, you still do the same things, there just may be some additional accessibility requirements. Innovative stuff is happening around the world. The ASI is a very innovative organisation. We speak with many people with younger-onset dementia who tell us their needs and wants. Those are the main differences; it is that stage in life.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

It links with dementia-inclusive communities work. We have a programme called friends of ASI. We do our own community engagement and dementia-inclusive communities work. Deputy Tully mentioned the one in Cavan. There is also the Dementia - Understand Together campaign, in which we are a partner. We spoke about the trajectory of the disease. If you are a golfer who gets dementia, there is a point at which your local golf club needs to be dementia-inclusive. You do not want to go to the special golf club for people living with dementia, you want to live your life in a normal way, go to your golf club and hope the people there can welcome you. As your condition progresses, there may be a point at which that is a bit tricky and you would hopefully then transfer to the dementia-specific activity, which may support you to do your hobbies and interests and, for example, take you to play golf with just one person. As the condition progresses, you may stop playing golf and perhaps talk to someone about playing golf, watch it on television or read a magazine. Dementia-inclusive work and tackling that stigma are important, particularly for people with younger-onset dementia. We spoke about loneliness with people living with dementia in 2018. Our research found that they had an awful lot of internalised stigma. Our research just last year found the same. They want to be out in a community that accepts them. Sometimes, they are fearful of saying, "I have dementia" because they are worried about people's reactions.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

With regard to early-onset dementia services, my colleague spoke about some of the research she is doing. We are currently looking to design younger-onset friendly specific services this year. We got some additional funding in budget 2024 and we are looking to prove that concept in a number of areas around the country. We want to make sure we do the right thing first and that we can trial and pilot. If it is what people with early-onset or younger-onset dementia want, we can build on it and roll it out further.

Mr. John Dunne

The Senator asked a question about the embargo - the recruitment freeze - and what it is stopping. While a lot of things in the pipeline have been delayed or stopped, it is not necessarily helpful to look at the recruitment freeze in that way. If we are simply going to turn around and say we need to hire all these extra people, there is something in the management of the health service and, therefore, for the Oireachtas Committee on Health, about how current resources are used and being able to reallocate and reprofile resources. While it is a crude mechanism, the recruitment freeze is part of a stage in that process. Not to lose sight of what is being delayed and prevented but the core issue is not about new services. It is about existing resources, from where I am sitting. I would not dream of just adding to our resources and accreting extra stuff.

Every time we get a new block of resources, we review everything we do and see how we can reorganise it to make it more efficient. That has not been the way the health service has worked and I think it should start working that way.

Ms Clare Duffy

When we work with families of someone who has early-onset dementia we see how inappropriate the fair deal model is when you try and superimpose it on a family who have a mortgage, even though I know that the mortgage is deductible, and children in college. You could have someone where dad, for example, is in a nursing home, under the fair deal scheme, and you have young adults in the house who are going to college. That fair deal contribution that the family is making is not deductible for SUSI grants, or it had not been the last time I looked at the scheme. I wish to make the important point that the fair deal model was designed for older people and not for younger people with early-onset dementia who, unfortunately, may need residential care.

I thank our guests.

I thank both organisations for coming in here and for the work that they do. Certainly the information they imparted this morning is very helpful.

There was a scenario in my home town about ten years ago where a very distinguished and successful businessman who had no family or immediate relatives, certainly not in Ireland, got dementia. It was extremely sad to see how he deteriorated, which happened in front of everybody. Again, he was a very independent person and it was extremely sad to see some of the scenarios he found himself in as a result of his condition. Ten years on what would happen to somebody in a similar situation who is a bachelor and has no family or loved ones? What services are now available for somebody like the independent businessman I mentioned, all the while respecting his or her independence but at the same time realising that the person needs interventions? In my view the businessman did not get the interventions that he should have got. Perhaps they were offered but maybe due to his independent nature he did not avail of them. He clearly needed them and it is one of those situations that plays on my mind all the time when we hear about carers, resources, etc. What would the State do in today's world to help that man and give him the dignity that he deserved having lived a very productive life, having employed people and having paid his taxes, etc. throughout his life? What exists today that was not available ten years ago?

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We are definitely in a different space for people living with dementia from ten years ago. Right now, that gentleman would have a dementia adviser in his county which he would not have had ten years ago. There would be a greater understanding in his local community so people might recognise the signs and symptoms of dementia quicker and be able to support him. There is now a lot of linking in with public health nurses and the integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, teams in the community. People with dementia have an improved pathway. He would, hopefully, have better access to ASI services. Our services have grown, particularly our funding has increased under this Government.

The big difference for that gentleman is that there is now the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act. The State would now ensure that someone would be appointed to support him to make decisions, which we think is really important. As an organisation we support people living with dementia and we support family carers and, interestingly, when we talk about the Act and the Decision Support Service, across the board people living with dementia have been extremely welcoming of the Act and are really positive about the changes. For example, ten years ago someone could have decided what was the best interest for that gentleman. Now, under the new legislation, it is his will and preference so someone will have to understand what he wants. Ten years ago, a diagnosis of dementia would have assumed that he would not have had capacity. Now, there is a functional capacity approach. So we would assume he has capacity until we learn otherwise and that is really important.

I echo what Ms Duffy said about the administrative burden on family carers. That is absolutely reported to us regularly.

There is an administrative and financial burden but for people living with dementia, the Decision Support Service would help that gentleman now and it would not have been in existence ten years ago.

That is very encouraging. It would have been an even worse situation, but for his neighbours, back then. For somebody who had no family to advocate for him, as he did not, how are the connections made? How does one deal with a situation where, for example, a bachelor is living on his own and people realise he has dementia? How does the connection happen?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Diagnosis has come on a lot and has changed quite a lot. Typically now when someone is diagnosed in a memory clinic a lot of our dementia advisers are embedded into that service. There is a pathway then for that person to take post diagnosis. The person is linked in with the dementia advisers. Some people link in with our dementia advisers several times and some people do it once. The first national dementia strategy was published only ten years ago. People did not really know much about dementia and we did not have any public awareness. It was very much in the shadows and now we are in a completely different space. We have the model of care, which is an incredible evolution of the national dementia strategy. If that man was to be diagnosed today, I believe his life would be very different.

I have a follow-up question. My colleague, Deputy Durkan, asked about medicines. We always have to be ambitious. There are conditions that existed in the past that do not exist any more because of the advancement of medicines. Certainly medicines are important. What kind of a timeline are we looking at? These two key drugs have not yet been approved by the European Medicines Agency. Obviously there is a delay on our side for looking at orphan drugs. There is also a question on research. Is there any research happening in Ireland around dementia? I am aware a huge amount of research takes place in Ireland on preventable blindness. Is any body of work being done by any of our universities or third-level institutions on dementia?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Absolutely. Just last week we had a landmark funding announcement that the Heath Research Board has invested €2.5 million in a research project led by Trinity College Dublin to look at Lewy body dementia, LBD. This is one of the first research studies of its kind here in Ireland. It looks at the diagnosis and the management of the condition. A fund of €2.5 million is significant. In the Alzheimer Society of Ireland we are delighted to be funding research into areas such as cognitive stimulation therapy. We are also participating in the Health Research Board's joint funding scheme at the moment. In Ireland we are fortunate because we have really high-quality clinicians and academics who work very hard and are passionate about dementia research and taking that research and being able to actually transform it into something that can change life. As we mentioned, Dementia Trials Ireland was funded in 2021 by the Health Research Board, which now has a portfolio of research studies. This includes 22 trials on topics such as sensory support in nursing homes that looks at people in nursing homes to see if they need hearing aids or visual aids. Another trial looks at neurostimulation and repurposing drugs on agitation. There is a lot happening in Ireland, which is brilliant.

Have the witnesses engaged in research in recent years that they have funded and from which there was a quantifiable deliverable? Has the Alzheimer Society of Ireland funded research in the last ten years that has concluded and where there is now a visible deliverable?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Yes absolutely. One of the great privileges of working in an organisation like the Alzheimer Society of Ireland is that we get to see the whole research cycle. I can take a piece of research, find my outcomes and hand it to my colleagues in advocacy or in communications. I can also hand it to my colleagues in operations who will then make changes depending on the findings of the research. Our day care at home service has just been evaluated and we launched it a couple of weeks ago. We are now improving and refining that service due to those findings. It is the same with our creating a dementia-inclusive generation service, which is our transition year awareness programme that delivers education.

Even things like cognitive stimulation therapy will have a tangible output.

I just checked the clock and I have 50 seconds left. It is great to hear about the research. We often hear about research being done with nothing achieved from it. That is very encouraging.

I agree with Ms Whelan that we have some phenomenal academics in health research in this country. We are leading the way internationally in many disciplines. It is very encouraging to hear what is happening in this area of research as well.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

I imagine that if those academics were tuned in they would say they require more funding.

Of course. They always do.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

They are probably at home shouting at Oireachtas TV. Compared to other disease areas, dementia could definitely do with increased research funding.

I will suspend for a five-minute break if that is sufficient for everyone. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.31 a.m. and resumed at 11.39 a.m.

I call Deputy Lahart.

I thank the witnesses. I enjoyed reading their opening statements last night. From a political perspective, I have a few comments and some specific questions. I have always found that elections are good pulse-takers. One of the things I saw in 2009 fighting a local election was that two issues were beginning to appear on the radar and to be spoken about at doors that had not really happened in the previous local election.

One was autism and the other was dementia. By 2014, it was really interesting that in five years they had completely spiralled, and since then it has been exponential. Politically speaking, I would trace my awareness or that, "My God, this is a coming thing, it is growing, needs addressing and is with us to stay", to around 2009. I do not know whether that tallies with things.

I was in Kilnamanagh Family Recreation Centre, where the Alzheimer's Society does really good work. It was mentioned to me that pre-Covid, it had an excellent facility available in Bloomfield Hospital, Rathfarnham, where a lot more people could participate. I raised this with the chief executive at Bloomfield and they seem to be very open to restarting this. I found it difficult to communicate that to the witnesses from a communications point of view, whether it was by telephone, email or whatever. The witnesses seem to be pushing an open door with Bloomfield. It is very supportive.

Other things I would have seen were at the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition. Much of the early part of the Alzheimer's Society's contribution was about innovation. At the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, I have seen a lot of stuff over the years - even that BT has done itself - with regard to small but innovative and very dramatic assistance they have provided, whether it is telephones with icons of key principals, who people should ring or a digital alert on their medicine cabinet reminding them about tablets. There are a lot of people doing a lot of work to try and make life easier and more liveable.

One question I had when I was reading was: can we say for sure - and this is important - that dementia crosses every economic and social divide? I see the witnesses nodding vigorously, so that is okay. They might want to elaborate on that. It is important that there is not an economic or social strata that escapes this.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

Dementia does not discriminate. It is also more of a challenge in lower-middle income countries, and people from minority backgrounds are also disproportionately impacted. Those brain health interventions we spoke about can make quite a significant difference to the lives of those people.

I am a Government politician. It is welcome that the witnesses acknowledged the role of the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Butler, in this. A lot of this policy does not happen by accident, and it happens because we talk to the Minister of State. In any parliamentary party, this kind of stuff comes up again and again, and that is how policy happens in Ireland. I always say to people that when they mention it to me, I raise it with the Minister of State. I keep raising it with her and it becomes policy or there are interventions.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I agree with that. First, with regard to Bloomfield, the CEO and I go back a few years elsewhere and we have started that communication there as well.

The Deputy mentioned innovation and the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition. What we also rolled out in the past two to three years was a TY programme for transition year students, which is across six modules online that are all about brain health etc., and what dementia is, trying to destigmatise it once again, and to garner intergenerational solidarity as well. Lots of these kids have grandparents or whatever who may have it as well, and there is a huge interest with that cohort. That is something we are working hard on. Quite a number of schools picked up on that, and we have already done an evaluation on it as well. It is a very powerful piece, and it is something that the schools themselves really value.

The socioeconomic impact of dementia diagnosis, etc., was mentioned. One modifiable risk factor is educational attainment, so that is going to be an issue that can contribute. That lack of education can contribute to more of a propensity for dementia into the future but that is across what I think is a total of 12 different risk factors. What we find, and what we are really focusing in on this year, are the different groupings in Ireland. If you go into one of our day centres, are we as diverse as the population is? I would have to say we are not.

We are very anxious to work with minorities, including Travellers and so on, to overcome some of the cultural stigmas with regard to reaching out, looking for help or accessing services. It is an issue we have recognised and we are very much directed in that way as part of our strategy.

We are against the clock. How many non-family carers working at the coalface are non-Irish or what is the proportion of such carers?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

In terms of our staff, just as a guess-----

Ms Clodagh Whelan

I understand the Deputy is asking about professional carers when he refers to non-family carers. I do not have that data.

Ms Clare Duffy

Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, had a really interesting statistic in this regard. Apologies because this is off the top of my head and may not be accurate. MRCI gave a very striking figure for the number of undocumented migrants working in the carer sector. It was something like a third of the total.

Mr. John Dunne

We do not employ many foreign carers because there is a real issue with getting Garda clearance for people who have come from overseas and some countries in particular. Frankly, I do not understand how a statistic that high can exist if people are sticking rigidly to the rules, let me put it like that, in terms of vetting.

I have loads of questions but not enough time for all of them. I would like the witnesses to spend a little time on the innovative stuff. I really like Mr. Heffernan's message of hope. The recommendations in that regard are very significant. Senator Conway referred to the situation of a bachelor. I am interested in that in reference to the constitutional referendum, which places quite a stress on family as the primary caring unit. What happens to people who live alone? I would like our guests to speak about the proactive things we can do as a society. It sounds like the overall message is that different aspects are fine but it takes a village to do it all and we could be doing much more.

I go back to the comments about the referendum by the representatives from Family Carers Ireland. On the one hand, they are welcoming it and, on the other, they are saying it does not go far enough. What do they recommend in this regard?

Mr. John Dunne

We welcome the referendum. I understand the Government's original idea was just to delete the offending section in the Constitution, if I can use the language. We said "No" to that, pointing to the reference to the value of care in the home, which should not be deleted. If it had not been there, we might not fight to put it in but as it is there, we certainly would fight not to take it out. We recognise and welcome that it is there.

The point about not going far enough is simply that I am seriously concerned, looking at the polls, that the referendum is there to be lost and could be lost. The criticism from within our community, and we are getting a lot of criticism for taking a "Yes, Yes" position, is on the basis that we have not consulted and had an internal vote. My attitude is that we are exercising leadership in terms of what we think is the right way to go. Everybody has a vote on the day and that is the appropriate way to approach a referendum. The argument is that words like "strive" and "endeavour" have not delivered in the past and will not deliver in the future. That is unfortunate, given the year that is in it in terms of the health budget, not so much in terms of the recruitment embargo as in terms of the games that are going on. I do not use that word in a derogatory sense but the gaming that is going on around the health budget this year is not helpful. There had been things in the pipeline as part of the roll-out of supports for carers that have just stopped for this year. Carers are looking at a proposal for constitutional reform that is sponsored by a Government and an organisation whose words are not being matched by their actions in the current year. That is definitely provoking a strong reaction on the ground.

It is hard to disagree with any of that, not just from my perspective but from the perspective of my colleagues. May I have an answer to my question on proactive measures?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

If I may, I will comment on brain health, which is my favourite topic. The ratifiable risk factors for dementia, as Mr. Heffernan mentioned, include less education and hypertension. It is important for people in mid-life to look after their blood pressure. Another risk factor is uncorrected hearing impairment. That is very important because it gives an 8% risk increase. Having hearing loss is okay but uncorrected hearing loss is an issue. It is important that people get their hearing checked.

Is that something to do with the cells?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

It is about less information getting into the brain. There is a lot of plasticity in our brains. "Use it or lose it" is the phrase people use. We need to get stimulation into our brains and hearing loss can reduce that stimulation, as far as I am aware.

Is it that those cells become inactive or redundant?

Mr. John Dunne

They do not necessarily do that. My mother developed auditory hallucinations and that was because her brain was effectively trying to fill the activity in the frequencies that she could no longer hear, at least that was how it was explained to me.

This is not the first time I have heard that and it is really interesting. It is something - pardon the pun - that we need to hear more about. I am hearing that from people talking about the connection between hearing loss and dementia.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

There is a definite connection there. There are factors such as smoking, obesity, depression, physical inactivity, diabetes, low social contact - we are always telling people to stay out in their communities - excessive alcohol consumption, traumatic brain injury and air pollution. The individual does not necessarily have control over each one of these. However, as a society I believe we can implement public strategies across the life course. As Mr. Heffernan said in his opening statement, brain health is everyone's business. It is never too early and it is never too late. If someone receives a diagnosis of dementia, it is not a sign of a life poorly lived. It is not a sign that this person was not healthy or did not do the right thing. Up to 40% of dementia is potentially modifiable. We do not know about the other 60%. Sometimes there are other things going on. The brain is a very complex and confusing organ. This is a message of hope and empowerment that we can take some control and maybe even delay the onset of dementia a little bit. At the same time, nobody deserves dementia. Nobody did anything wrong to go and get that diagnosis.

That is a really important point. I am conscious that there is a campaign on dementia led by the HSE and I understand that the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland is also involved. We are hearing those messages on the radio and reading about it in newspapers. It is important to stress that there are different types of dementia. It does not recognise class, creed, colour or financial background. It can impact on anyone. Questions have been asked this morning about young people as well as older people getting it. I am familiar with the idea that someone with a hearing problem tends to switch off. It is amazing that when the brain is not hearing noises people start to imagine that they are hearing noises.

In 2017, an Oireachtas committee was set up and again the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland was involved in that. There was a new programme building awareness of dementia. At that time the figure of 55,000 was talked about and I believe it is now 64,000. Representatives of the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland recently attended our Ard-Fheis. It was stated that one in three people in the North is not diagnosed with dementia.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

I think it was our colleagues from the UK Alzheimer's Society who attended the Ard-Fheis.

One in three is huge.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

The UK Alzheimer's Society conducted research in 2015. It believed that one in three children born in 2015 would go on to develop some form of dementia in their lifetime.

They also mentioned that one in three of people with dementia did not have it diagnosed. It goes to show the scale of the challenge facing us. I presume the figures here would be similar. We do not really know because we do not have a register. That is something that the committee could follow up on.

Based on the figures quoted in 2017, we were talking about 11 people every day being diagnosed with dementia which is frightening. The message the witnesses are giving this morning is that people can live a full life with dementia. Mr. Dunne mentioned that his mother has mild dementia with delirium coming on. No individual with this disease is affected in the same way. He probably does not want to go into the detail of that.

I can only imagine the heartbreak it must cause a family when someone they love does not recognise them. A person you have spent all your life with might wake up one day and not recognise you. It is about trying to find a way to deal with that. That is where the supports need to come in.

Is the key message for people to keep the mind active? Financial matters have been discussed. If a person goes into a nursing home and their mind is not kept active, does that have an impact? I know that in the North, there are singing clubs. Are there similar clubs here?

Ms Clodagh Whelan

We have singing for the brain clubs here.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

There are social groups, etc. as well. Even from the lay perspective, people would associate me with working with Alzheimer's disease. On occasion they would ask my advice as well. Coming from a lay and non-clinical perspective, I advise people to keep moving, keep the brain going and socialise. They are the three key risk-reducers in terms of how you live your life.

The witnesses mentioned the role of alcohol in relation to dementia. I have a friend who discovered wine late in life. For some reason, he was drinking pints for most of his life but he discovered wine late in life. It was the strength of the wine that was the issue. He was told that if he did not cut back on it, the early stages of dementia would get worse and worse. There are all sorts of triggers out there. We mentioned trauma and stress but that does not necessarily happen. Deputy Gino Kenny spoke about intergenerational dementia. Some people say it runs in families. It does not run in others. Perhaps one member of a family may have it. The fact that we are living longer also presents a challenge.

One of the asks for this committee is to find out about the register the regional health areas. Is there anything else we can do as a committee, following today's meeting? I am not excluding members, who may have other questions. Is there a particular ask that the witnesses have of us?

Ms Clodagh Whelan

The implementation plan for the model of care for dementia is a really important thing for the committee to be aware of. I really welcome the opportunity to highlight that it was developed with clinicians, academics, people living with dementia, family carers, the Alzheimer Society of Ireland team and both of our advocacy groups. It is a plan and provides a cohesive pathway from the moment a patient is concerned about their cognition, memory and any other symptoms, right through to end-of-life care. There are targets provided for in the model of care, so in a way, implementation is built in. We understand that things will not happen overnight, but we believe a time-bound and funded implementation plan is critical for the lives of people affected by dementia.

The Deputy mentioned the all-party Oireachtas group on dementia and his party colleague, Deputy Ryan, is very active in that group. Deputy Lahart mentioned the political context. It is worth saying here, on record, in Leinster House that when we talk to our colleagues in Europe, they are really impressed by the level of engagement we have. We have an excellent working relationship with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, who has really engaged with both of our advocacy groups. She has engaged with our operations team and she understands the condition. We have excellent support from the all-party group and good engagement around our pre-budget submission. I was talking to Deputy Tully when we launched our Cost of Living While Caring report. We are glad to be here today. We really do feel that there is a political will to support people impacted by dementia. That is very encouraging for us. There could be people at home who are really struggling now. They are hardly watching Oireachtas TV, but they may be aware of what is said. Things are improving, and hopefully, recognising the absolute dire straits that people are in, while knowing that we are all working together to improve them, will provide some comfort.

Before we go back to Ms Whelan's colleagues, I have a question on the lack of parity of esteem of dementia with other illnesses, like cancer and mental health, which were mentioned. Is there any particular reason why it is often left behind?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

I do not think that applies as much. My initial exposure to dementia was probably 12 or 13 years ago with my mum. What I am hearing at today's committee tallies with that experience, including awareness and difficulty in getting a diagnosis because we did not have those memory assessment clinics, etc. The onset of the strategy ten years ago has really changed the landscape in terms of interest, care for the condition and focus. Cross-party political support is also very important in that regard. When we open new centres and have the grand opening, I always make the point that when politicians, the HSE and organisations such as us come together, it is a very powerful alliance and we can make things happen. We all want the same outcome in any case.

What has also struck me in the past few years of my involvement with the society is the interest among early career researchers throughout Ireland. There is a significant amount, which is replicated across Europe. Dementia is beginning to achieve that parity of esteem with other conditions. Everything is personal to a certain extent, and we are all selfish in our own right, but we all now know that there is a likelihood that even if we do not get the condition, we may be affected through a family member who will get it in future. It is important to know that as well. It has certainly moved on no end in the past ten or 12 years. That is due to the strategy, the awareness campaigns, and understanding of the condition, but there is still a little stigma out there, particularly in more rural areas. I see that on the western seaboard from time to time, where people maybe prefer the home care option for service and support as opposed to going into a centre that says "Alzheimer's". There is still a bit of that out there.

I was a little surprised when we asked about respite to hear that people still preferred respite at home. You would imagine, particularly for carers, that it would be life-changing and transforming for them to get a week off, but they do not want to leave.

Mr. John Dunne

Carers live by routine. That is one of the key things we work with. A residential break, particularly with an older person, not only disrupts the routine, in many situations, frankly, people come home from breaks like that, or trips to hospital, far worse than when they went in. They deteriorate significantly. Sometimes, it is possible to make that ground back but sometimes it is not.

It would be remiss of me not to mention St. Brigid's Nursing Home. It is on the edge of three of the members' constituencies, including Deputies Kenny and Durkan. It was burnt during an attack on it at the weekend. It was a centre used for women with dementia. Everyone talked about there being something special about that particular nursing home. Some people thought there was something spiritual about the place, similar to St. Luke's and cancer care. St. Brigid's was the same. Most of us have visited it. What happened to that nursing home is sad. One of the reasons patients there were moved was lack of staff but also because patients were in dormitory situations. We talked about routine. For someone who has been in a dormitory situation for ten or 20 years, that is normal life for him or her. Yet, while those patients were being moved to a situation where they would all have individual rooms, which sounds great, it does not necessarily follow that it is best for patients. Unfortunately, as a society, we have adopted this model as being the best form of care. Many of us that were involved in that campaign had a different view.

I am sorry for going on about that. I will go back to Deputy Burke. He has five minutes.

That is fine. To go back to the issue of Covid, one of the issues I am finding at present is that quite a lot of people living on their own, who stopped contact with many people during the pandemic, seem to have still maintained that routine. It is one of the things I am a little frightened about, especially for those people who do not have any immediate family. Many of them are in their late 60s or early 70s but have still not reconnected. What should we be doing to try to help people like that? It is a growing problem. I am a little taken aback by the number of such cases I have come across in the past six months.

I wonder if the representatives have any dealings with that kind of scenario. I know this topic is a bit off the area they are dealing with, but is it the case that some of the people who might end up needing full-time care would not have ended up in that scenario if it was dealt with now?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

This is something we noticed on reopening our day centres, which had to close during Covid. Even though we reopened them, we were not hitting the numbers in terms of capacity straight away. There had to be a lot of encouragement of people to reconnect there. In fairness to the Government and the HSE, they have run a number of campaigns so that people will come back into communities again. That has been successful to a certain extent. We are approximately two years post-Covid and I am not aware of that still being an issue. Yet, to a certain extent, we have seen more demand for our day care at home services, as opposed to our day care on occasion service. This may be because people are more comfortable with the one-on-one service in their own home, as opposed to going to the collective services in the centre. That is, therefore, a possibility.

There are still some people who were not necessarily going to the centres before and now it may be the only opportunity for them to get out there, but they may still be reluctant to leave the routine they got into during Covid.

Mr. Andy Heffernan

There is a sense of that but I only have anecdotal evidence of it from what I hear at some of our own centres, which are trying to encourage people to come out. I would have thought that we are over the worst of that now because we are two years on. Yet, based on what the Deputy is saying, and anecdotally, there is still evidence of that out there. As I said, in fairness to the Government, it launched a campaign over the past number of months to get people back into their own communities and services, etc.

I have noticed - and I have also heard it anecdotally from two areas around the country - regarding people who were accessing a day service through a day centre that they discharged themselves to go into long-term care, but were still sufficiently independent, well and healthy in terms of comorbidities. Yet, they went into long-term care early. One of those instances may have been down to the opening of a new nursing home. There is a certain amount of fear that there will be a crisis in three or four years, and they will not be able to get into a nursing home at that stage. I have heard about this in two parts of the country. It is something I have asked our team to keep an eye on in case it becomes a pattern or trend. Certainly, it would worry us if someone goes into long-term care but is perfectly capable of being supported in their own home or in a day service.

Mr. John Dunne

I agree with the Deputy that the problem is still there. The Government is doing what it can with information campaigns, as are we. We see it manifesting mainly in community-based groups where people just do not come to meetings. These are people who have been very actively engaged in the past. Again, it is partly a matter of keeping in touch with them. The other issue is trying to develop new forms of engagement because there is a legacy to cope with regarding how people now behave, what they now expect and what they now want. We have not really appreciated that yet and we are trying to adapt to that. However, I concede to the Deputy that groups, particularly those that are in the west, are much weaker than they were before. Approximately one third of the people may have died during Covid, one third are back and one third are not back. That is the breakdown.

Ms Clare Duffy

Regarding preferences, people have gotten used to Zoom. They realise they can now engage in groups through this thing they never knew existed four years ago. There is a comfort around Zoom and dialling in online, so it is hard to get people back in person. They will dial in but it is hard to get them back in person.

I call Deputy Tully.

Are home care hours and care at home hours fully funded by the Government or do the organisations have to subsidise those through fundraising? Are they section 39 organisations? What way are they funded?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

They are section 39. There are different ways of funding them, but they are essentially Government-funded. We negotiate every year to increase those. The day care at home hours were a Covid offering. I think €1.7 million was made available at the time to develop that offering. That has been added to this year with an additional €480,000 and we can quantify the additional hours there.

That service has been validated through external research. We wanted to do that so it was not an offering that was only available during the Covid-19 pandemic but became embedded in the offering we provide. It has certainly been very successful and has, by and large, been funded through the Exchequer.

Mr. Heffernan spoke about the model of care, and we want to see implementation of that as quickly as possible. It was devised through consultation with clinicians, etc. Is there ongoing engagement with clinicians? He spoke about new innovations that may be coming to Ireland and the ongoing need for clinicians and planning. Is that happening so the model of care can be implemented within the timescale?

Mr. Andy Heffernan

There is a significant amount of ongoing oversight in terms of implementation. I sit on a group that is facilitated by the national dementia service, which was, until last year, the NDO. It is tasked with monitoring the implementation and looking at the various services that are in place. Bits and pieces are in place and it is about building on those. We do not want to lose half a team in one part of the country because we cannot fill the other half of it. There is a bit of a dynamic going on there as well. Clinicians and representatives of the HSE are around the table, as are the likes of ourselves, together with the national dementia service, which is facilitating and co-ordinating the group.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

On disease modifying therapies and those kinds of interventions and service readiness, the national dementia service convened a disease modifying therapy working group in 2021. It is a multidisciplinary group that is assessing what we need to consider for service readiness. It has published a paper on the issue. The national dementia service is collaborating and looking after that.

There are references in the opening statements to fighting for services. I hear that continually from parents of children with additional needs and disabled people and their advocates as they reach adulthood. I hear it from everybody who requires care. We need to get to a position where the care is provided to the person and the family and we cater to their needs. It feels now as if we offer the minimum and hope it suffices. The progressing disability services for children programme is being rolled out but the workforce planning was not done. The service was not ready to be rolled out when it was and it is in chaos at the moment. We need a proper implementation plan that includes a full plan for the workforce, going forward. I thank the witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for this informative session. I have two questions, one for Ms Duffy and one for Dr. O'Philbin. Ms Duffy briefly alluded to assisted decision-making. What effect has the new Act had on those who are living with dementia and their capacity to make decisions for themselves?

Ms Clare Duffy

The impact is dependent on how well prepared they were and how well they had planned for their future. If someone with dementia and his or her family established an enduring power of attorney ten or 20 years ago, before the dementia diagnosis, it changes how we can support them. We do not need to put in as many supports. If I were to give anybody a piece of advice, it would be to go home and get enduring power of attorney.

What would that mean?

Ms Clare Duffy

It protects people if they lose their capacity. It protects them. If I, God forbid, lost my capacity or developed dementia, while I still have the capacity and have not developed the disease, I can go to my solicitor and say that in the event that I lose capacity, I will allow my husband, for example, to make decisions regarding my financial affairs, my health and whatever else so that if I developed dementia, it would be a simple case of him activating enduring power of attorney. That is very emotional and we sometimes do not understand how emotional it is to activate an enduring power of attorney. Such power would give my husband the power to make those decisions on my behalf. If there is no enduring power of attorney, we have to navigate the new Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act, which is great but complicated. It is complicated for families. The Chair asked what are the things the committee needs to take away from the meeting and one of them is that we need to fund supports for the families of people with dementia and those who lack capacity or have diminished capacity to help them navigate the new capacity legislation.

The Act was commenced on 26 April last year and one of the big findings that is emerging is that families are in and out of the Circuit Court because they do not understand what was needed in the first instance. Therefore, we need to support the families to navigate that really important, but very complicated, Act. Even when we would engage with the HSE and the DSS, which are doing great work, we remind the representatives that their language is really legalistic and cannot be understood. Even with things such as the affidavits and the forms that families need, it is confusing and we need to simplify that in order that the families of people with dementia know what they need to do if they are making a fair deal scheme application or whatever it might be. Actually, the majority of applications for people with dementia to the Circuit Court are coming from the fair deal scheme.

Dr. O'Philbin mentioned reminiscence therapy earlier. I am fascinated by this. I was looking it up to see what it actually is. I remember when I worked in Cherry Orchard a long time ago - and it was an education - it was only beginning to happen about 20 years ago that music, old photographs and things like that were being introduced. I thought it was really good because the residents at the time were hugely enthusiastic about this kind of therapy. Will Dr. O'Philbin explain more about the advancement of this therapy?

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

I love talking about reminiscence therapy. It is great. Reminiscence therapy is a psychosocial approach which is done either in a group or individually with a person living with dementia where you think or chat about things from the past, usually using some kind of a stimulus be it music, photographs, videos or objects. Many people use objects for reminiscence. What is nice about reminiscence is that sometimes people use this anecdote about dementia that the person cannot remember what they had for breakfast but they remember what happened 40 years ago. That is not always the best anecdote to use but people have this kind of memory for those earlier years that is still intact and often it represents these well-rehearsed anecdotes a person feels very comfortable talking about. Therefore, if you are someone living with dementia and you are in those middle to later stages and are struggling to follow a conversation or do not feel confident in a social setting, if suddenly you are talking about something you are really used to talking about, whether it is your friend from school or a specific day something happened, that can be really transformative. It enhances confidence and brings about better communication. I worked with people directly with reminiscence therapy and a lot of family members would say that people were saying things the family members never knew about them or had said more in a week than they had in the past three years. It really stimulates this part of a person. They get to think about and remember things but can do it confidently. They are not constantly thinking they do not know or do not remember because they do remember it and remember it clearly. It is not the most perfect intervention - no intervention is - but it is a really lovely thing to do and I have been very privileged to have so many gorgeous moments with people. You might find an old video on YouTube and they would be shocked and say they were there that day or that they remember it. The person comes alive and really transforms. As an intervention, it is lovely. In the ASI, we have this intervention called sporting memories which is reminiscence focused on sport. We work with local sports clubs and the GAA, in hosting sporting reminiscence sessions which is lovely. Many people in the community come together and talk about matches and players. It is a lovely way for the community and for people living with dementia to come together and spend time in a meaningful way.

I am very impressed with the variations of the therapies that are available. They can go further as well. It is a very interesting time. Modern technology and modern communications such as Facebook, Skype and all those things are very often a nuisance for us but in that particular area they have considerable potential. We would be interested in promoting and supporting those ideas insofar as we can.

The society has done a lot of useful research to inform themselves but also to inform us. To inform the wider community is another story. It is more difficult to do. Modern telephony, Skype and all that kind of thing can do quite a bit more in that area, particularly in triggering memories, especially positive memories and things that they associate with memories.

Another thing that is important to bring to public attention is deafness. Not everyone is aware of that to the extent they should . It can be improved further and there is nothing to be gained by people suffering from it. We all know people who can hear quite well when you do not want them to hear, but if there is background noise at the same time, they cannot hear anything or they virtually cannot hear anything. That is an area on which we could do more and expand the potential with a view to picking up people in that area. Again, technology comes into it because an awful lot can be done. I see many people who have hearing aids of one type or another in to assist with distance noise, local noise and so on. There is a whole area there from which we can benefit in this area.

On friendship, there is the need for sufferers and their families who may also be carers, to be able to recognise that there is a friendship group out there. Someone who knows full well what the situation is and is welling and anxious to help for mutual benefit. It will improve things for everyone.

I would like to be associated with the Chair’s remarks about Crooksling. I used to be on the visiting committee in the old Eastern Health Board days. It is so sad to see the destructive element in today’s society that sees nothing better to do than to light a fire and damage public property that cost money to put there in the first place. In the 1940s and 1950s when that was built, it filled a very important role in this country, namely the fight against TB, and it continued to play a very important role fore older people and people with dementia, including the most severely affected people. They were looked after, their every need cared for. Staff were around them all the time. There was something happening all the time. It played a huge role. It was a diminishing role because different circumstances intervened. I do not know if that is right; it was working very well as it was. It worked extremely well by trial and error. There was a great level of care, support and comfort was made available to the women who went in there. They covered all of our constituencies.

Ms Clodagh Whelan

The Deputy mentioned comfort and the Chair mentioned the atmosphere in that centre. I am so glad they brought up the needs of people who are in the advanced stages of dementia and are living in long-term care facilities because we have had so many conversations this morning about more community-based services. Of course, if people are in a nursing home, they have moved address and they are still in the community. That is a really important point to make. As their dementia progresses, people still need rights-based care, interventions and therapeutic supports.

And to have around them the noises and the sounds. Their hearing may not be as acute but it is nice to know those sounds are there. I would like to associate myself with the Chair’s remarks on this area and I hope that whoever was responsible for doing the damage does not achieve their objectives, whatever they may be.

I would conclude by telling both groups that we appreciate what they are doing. It is important from their perspective as well as that of the families and the suffers. It is important to us to hear directly from the people who are taking a personal interest in the situation and giving their time, energy and efforts to do something about it.

Dr. Laura O'Philbin

The Deputy mentioned research communication and it is really important to us at the Alzheimer Society of Ireland that research is communicated to the people it impacts. One of the priorities of our research strategy is ensuring we communicate what happens in research to those people. Otherwise, how would they know? I have worked in academic research, where there is a history of doing research, writing and publishing a fancy paper and only other people who have written similar papers can access it. That has completely changed now, particularly in Ireland, where researchers are passionate about ensuring people living with dementia and family carers know what they are doing and about communicating that to them.

In the Alzheimer Society of Ireland we have a person and public involvement initiative called the dementia research advisory team. That is a group of people living with dementia and family carers who are involved as co-researchers. They influence research and help researchers make it better, communication and carry it out better and make sure it is relevant for people. It is nearly a whole-community approach to research, which is brilliant. We also have "TeamUp for Dementia Research", a research-matching service whereby people living with dementia, family carers or former family carers can sign up to find out what research is happening and sign up to take part in the research, and we will get back to them and let them know the outcome of the research. Those are two ways we are trying to ensure those messages reach people.

Innovations in technology were mentioned. We have our dementia hub, which has been valuable. It came about through sponsorship with Fujitsu. It has reminiscence activities on it and ways that people can spend time together. People can go online and download information. Many people use that service

That is a good note on which to end the meeting. For anyone with a loved one in this situation, it is about where to go next. It is good there is a go-to place for supports and to find out they are not alone. Other people have been through or are going through this. There are different forms of dementia and different approaches. There is reminiscence therapy. We did not mention taste and smell but they are helpful triggers.

On the legal implications, if a simple roadmap is drawn up, that may be something the committee could follow up with the Minister, as part of the information that needs to get out to ordinary people.

I thank the Alzheimer Society of Ireland and Family Carers Ireland for their engagement with the committee. I particularly thank the witnesses and their organisations for the work they do in our communities every day of the year. They carry out fantastic work. I hope the meeting is the start of a conversation. It was useful for us as Oireachtas Members and also for people watching. I hope they are more aware of dementia and the supports out there if people need them.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.29 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 February 2024.
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