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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 4

Medical Council: Presentation.

We have a presentation by members of the Medical Council on a proposed European Union directive regarding professional qualifications. I welcome Professor Gerard Bury, Dr. John Hillery and Dr. Abdul Bulbulia.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that committee members have absolute privilege but, unfortunately, it does not apply to those appearing as witnesses before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Perhaps Professor Bury will give the presentation on the proposed EU directive and perhaps he could make it as short and snappy as possible to allow members time for questions and answers.

Professor Gerard Bury

I hope I will be both snappy and unchallenged on a personal basis or otherwise. On behalf of the Medical Council, we are delighted to have the invitation to give a presentation to the committee and to bring our concerns to its attention. We are happy to take away from today any questions, comments or advice members want to give us or to follow up on any aspects of the issues we have raised. I have circulated a presentation which I hope to work through quickly and perhaps then take questions and comments.

The first slide in the presentation summarises the document we brought to the committee's attention and with which members are probably familiar at this stage, namely, the proposed EU directive on professional qualifications. It is and has been progressing for about a year through the various elements of the EU legislative process. Our understanding at the moment is that it has most recently been debated in the European Parliament and is being considered by the European Commission for progression during this year or, at the latest, during Ireland's Presidency of the EU in a year's time.

The proposed directive is intended to amalgamate into a simplified directive the 15 current directives which regulate the various professions within the EU. That simplification process is to be welcomed. However, the descriptor of the proposed directive states that its intention is to cover almost all the regulated professions, from engineers, including all the other specified professions, to hairdressers, but does not include lawyers who are apparently given a bye on the basis of their personalised arrangements, something which we would be interested in pursuing further.

I will tell the committee a little about the Medical Council to establish why this arcane subject should be of interest to us as doctors and people involved in the provision of health services to members of the public in this country. The Medical Council was established on the basis of the Medical Practitioners Act 1978. It has 25 members, ten of whom are elected by the profession, six appointed by the Minister for Health and Children and nine appointed by the various universities and postgraduate training bodies within the State. The business of the Medical Council is detailed and comprehensive but is best summarised in a simple phrase. Our business is to protect the public interest and the interests of members of the public when they deal with registered medical practitioners.

What I have spelt out in slide four is the main themes we use to complete or address that mission. We maintain general registers of all doctors who have completed their undergraduate training and specialist registers of doctors who are trained to a point where they can practise independently. We set and maintain by scrutiny the educational standards at all levels within medicine. We provide ethical guidance to the profession and, probably most infamously, we are associated with a disciplinary process for the profession. It is obviously a very important part of our functions but is not the only one.

How do we fulfil all these roles? I want to hit on a few points that are perhaps relevant to the main tasks. The rigour of our scrutiny is something we are perhaps famous for, but the rigour with which the registration process, for example, is applied is unimpeachable. The standard setting and scrutiny of education is an issue on which we have focused a great deal of time and effort in recent years and which has become thoroughly professionalised. The ethical guidelines are revised on the basis of submissions from the profession and public on a five-yearly basis. Competence assurance is a hugely important initiative which the Medical Council has undertaken in the past five years, again with the intention of offering real assurance to the public of the continuing competence throughout the professional lives of independent practitioners.

Fitness is perhaps the most familiar aspect of what we do. The health committee is a good example of something which is much less familiar. It is a vehicle through which those doctors who have not yet harmed patients, and who bring themselves to our attention, can receive support in achieving safe practice.

I now move to the current medical mobility situation in the EU and slide No. 6 summarises a number of the provisions that apply to the movement of doctors around the EU at the moment. This is covered by an EU directive of 1993 under the sectoral directive provisions of the EU. It provides for graduates of EU medical schools to obtain full registration in Ireland on the basis of administrative procedures. They need not go through any additional clinical or language scrutiny before coming here. That process has been in place successfully for many years. It is based on a process of harmonisation of standards for education and training across Europe which was carried out under the aegis of the advisory committee on medical training, an advisory unit established by the EU Commission. Each of the disciplines, such as nursing, dentistry and so on, has had its own advisory committee providing technical advice and guidance to the Commission.

These provisions apply to general and specialist registration. A doctor on the specialist register in another member state for a particular medical discipline can bring that specialist registration and right of independent practice to Ireland. There are approximately 200 such registrations in this country each year and many of those arise in the United Kingdom. However, there are an increasing number of applications and registrations.

The Medical Council welcomes the general thrust of the proposals but has serious concerns about many of the detailed specifications. First, the move is from the sectoral to the general systems directives. That is a very complex issue but, in general, it means that rather than the professions being treated on an individualised basis, there will now be a global set of rules applied to all professions within a package arrangement. Second, the dissolution of the advisory committees and their replacement by an EU Commission appointed group which will provide advice on a comitology basis directly to the EU Commission and will be appointed by it.

There are specific concerns. One of the highlights of the proposed legislation is the ability of doctors registered in another EU member state to practice in Ireland without registration here. The aim of clearer and simpler administration is to be welcomed but the several highlights I have touched on are the Medical Council's principal concerns and the main reasons for putting this issue before the committee. There are other concerns, for example, the collapse of medical specialities across Europe from the current 50 or more recognised specialities into a core group of approximately 16. If a speciality is recognised in all member states it will be entered into the core group, which raises concerns I will return to shortly.

The final specific issue is that this is based not on harmonisation of standards across Europe at undergraduate or postgraduate training levels but on the individual assessment of applicants. This process of movement from sectoral to general systems directives is founded on the understanding that individual applicants rather than systems based structures will be put in place.

The Medical Council welcomes many of these issues, including the target of simplification. We want to see mobility and are delighted to see doctors bringing their experience and breadth of thought from other countries to Ireland. This country will benefit greatly from that as do other countries where Irish graduates work. We also welcome the introduction of a language assessment for the first time and the principle of some type of clinical assessment may be possible under this legislation.

However, there are concerns. The first block of concerns is in regard to the issue of 16 weeks unregistered practice. We fundamentally object to that provision on the basis that it exposes the public to significant risk. The risk arises because those doctors are subject to the ethical and qualitative standards of their own regulatory body, not to those which are relevant or agreed on for this country. There are real concerns about the standards of practice and familiarity with Irish expectations. The council is also concerned that should a complaint arise against one of those doctors, it must be pursued in the country of origin of that doctor by a member of the public here. The Medical Council will have no awareness of the fact of practice of many of these doctors in this country and will have no say in their regulation, discipline or registration.

A single comitology committee cannot serve everything from hairdressing to engineering as that is nonsense. The dissolution of the advisory committees de facto occurred three years ago. The advisory committee on medical training has not convened for more than three years and has been allowed to fall into disrepute because of its lack of activity. There is no question that it has been a cumbersome and less than efficient body but those deficiencies could be fixed.

The council fundamentally believes that each of the professions has an important consultative role to play with the Commission. If all specialities are reduced to a core group of 16, there are serious implications for the competence assurance structures which the Medical Council has put in place. Those structures relate to systems which came into operation on 1 January last by which all doctors on the register of medical specialists - which reflects those doctors who have completed training and are capable of independent practice - have signed themselves up for cycles of five year continuing professional development programmes which will determine their future re-entry on the register.

Competence assurance is based on disciplines and the existing groups of disciplines are the framework around which we have built competence assurance. Administratively, we can consider what options there are under this legislative provision but one clear implication is that there will be a move from the current peer based system of specialists reviewing each other's works to more generic groups centred around these 16 specialities.

The Medical Council has difficulty with the issue of a single advisory committee established by the EU Commission to advise it because the proposed legislation devolves powers to the comitology committee to do a number of things. First, it allows that committee to advise the Commission on making decisions about automatic recognition of experience for future registration of doctors - not recognition of their training but of their experience. Second, it allows the comitology committee and Commission to make decisions about the content of training at all levels. Finally, it allows those bodies powers of establishment of new specialities.

The council has public interest concerns about all of those issues because they may be driven by motives other than the protection of the best service delivery to members of the public. The practice by doctors who are not registered in this country on patients who are under the illusion that those doctors may be subject to scrutiny in this country is unacceptable. We do not believe that doctors should practice outside some umbrella of guidance and supervision within this State.

At a technical level, third country qualifications for EU nationals have begun to become a feature of medical mobility around Europe. That means that if an EU national qualifies as a doctor, perhaps in South America or in another state outside the EU, and then returns to an EU state, he or she may then become fully registered in that EU state and gain all the privileges of medical mobility and registration throughout Europe without any say in how that doctor is being trained. How will doctors be handled if they fall outside the specialist core groups? We may be able to make administrative re-arrangements, but we have some concerns about the impact on what is a delicate flower at the moment - the system of competence assurance that we are building up. An enormous bureaucracy is being established, which undermines the purpose of this legislation. The individualised assessment of every applicant who wishes to come to this country without any systems-wide structures in place will cause serious difficulties.

We welcome increased medical mobility. The current proposals favour the interests of migrant professionals over the interests of the public, which is unacceptable. Unregistered and unaccountable practice in this State is unacceptable. We share these concerns with colleagues in An Bord Altranais, the Dental Council and the Pharmaceutical Society. All of these professions and regulatory bodies have similar concerns and problems with this proposed legislation. We welcome this opportunity to bring our concerns to the attention of the public, the parliamentary process and political agents. We have had intense contact with many individual legislators, and I welcome the support of the Minister for Health and Children in advancing our concerns and bringing them to a range of fora.

Other Ministers with involvement in this process at EU level should also share the concerns of the Minister for Health and Children about the implications of this legislation. Members of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament have an important role to play in bringing the concerns of the Irish public to the attention of their colleagues.

At what stage is this proposal in European terms? What interaction has taken place between various professional bodies throughout Europe and the Department of Health and Children? You noted, Professor Bury, the Minister for Health and Children's reservations about this. At what level have they been addressed? When is this directive likely to come into being?

Professor Bury

I am not sure I can answer all of those questions in terms of the parliamentary process, but I have circulated an extract from the European legislative journal, which summarises the most recent debate on this in the European Parliament in February. It outlines roughly the stage that discussions are at in the European Parliament. The directive is being processed through the Council of Ministers. As this is an internal market reform, it is the Tánaiste's responsibility to represent Irish interests in Europe. Administratively, the collation of Irish responses is the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science, believe it or not. I understand that both the Tánaiste's officials and Department of Education and Science officials have been in contact with the Minister for Health and Children to elicit his informed views on the matter.

The Council of Ministers met in November 2002 and briefly discussed the principles involved in this legislation. We do not have a copy of the Tánaiste's submission to that meeting, but I understand that she brought the concerns relayed by her Government colleagues to the attention of the Council. In terms of professional collaboration, we have a number of European and international settings in which we can exchange views with sister bodies. The concerns that I have tried to summarise are shared by a very significant number of those bodies. I suspect they would be shared by all, but we do not have exact counterparts in many European countries, so it not altogether fair or true to say that we have had the opportunity to consult with all EU members. We simply do not have opposite numbers with which to consult in some states, but where we have had that opportunity, between seven and nine of the regulatory authorities for medicine in EU member states share our concerns.

Has that journal mentioned has been circulated to members of the committee?

Professor Bury

The extract is included in the handout I have provided.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation, which covered a number of concerns. We have received correspondence in recent months from most professional organisations in this area, including the IMO and the INO. They have expressed different types of concerns. Not everybody seems to be focused upon the same concerns. It is very strange that the European Commission, with all of the work it must undertake in bringing member states together, would seek to undo a system that seems to be working very well, that is based entirely on the European ideal of mutual common recognition of standards and that would ensure mobility within EU states.

Why now, when we have a system that is working well and conforms with EU ideals, is the Commission seeking to change the system? Were there difficulties specific to the medical profession or is the profession just being lumped in because the Commission wants to regulate other professions? Is that the genesis of this directive? My second question relates to the 16 weeks of unregistered practice. I can see huge bureaucracy resulting from individual applications. This is absolutely daft in a country that depends on mobility of labour, particularly in the medical profession. If, at the moment, the system is based on mutual recognition, why would 16 weeks unregistered practice be a vast departure? Perhaps I have just failed to understand the issue.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee, and I think we all recognise that the Medical Council provides a valuable framework within which medical standards can be maintained. We have a very good reputation in that regard, which we can hopefully maintain. That said, there have been occasions when one's confidence has been dented somewhat. I can think of specific cases in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda of where medical practice far below the required standard was carried on for many years. I am not attaching blame to anybody, but the systems were not there to protect patients. I have concerns about what is, I recognise, a very difficult area of disciplining doctors and striking off doctors from the register. I have concerns about the process that is maintained at the moment by the Medical Council. Generally speaking, however, I applaud the Medical Council in the role it has played and will hopefully continue to play. The concerns that have been expressed are particularly acute when one considers that we are dealing with a European Union that is likely to be significantly enlarged. I presume that the enlargement, which will mean that new cultures will be part of the EU, which I welcome, will widen the practices that are found. Perhaps Professor Bury will clarify the impression he gave that difficulties have resulted from the fact that doctors are included with many other professions in this directive. I ask the professor to explain why lawyers are not included in it. Does he believe that medical professionals should also be excluded from this arrangement?

It is important that the committee should receive a copy of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment's submission. Professor Bury mentioned that changes may be taking place for motives other than best service for patients. I would like hear some details of the motives, although it may be difficult for Professor Bury to mention them. If we are to uphold the free market and to encourage mobility throughout the EU, it is important that we are told if provisions are being made for reasons other than ensuring that standards are maintained in the medical profession. Is competence assurance, which was mentioned by Professor Bury, mandatory or is it still voluntary?

I am disturbed by the idea of 16 weeks' unregistered practice. It can happen on rare occasions in other EU countries that things are not right in relation to foreign doctors. It appears from today's newspapers that it is not simple to strike off an obstetrician in this country who was struck off by the UK Medical Council. Such issues are a cause of great concern to the public. Professor Bury mentioned that there are no associations in other countries with which the Medical Council can automatically link in when it wishes to state concerns. Is he saying that there is no system of registration to a medical council in certain other countries? If that is the case, what alternative model of registration is in place in such countries?

Professor Bury

I thank the Deputy and I will try to answer some of her questions - most of them can be answered with the word "politicians".

Doctors also have a role in this matter.

Professor Bury

No, I am afraid I have to mention politicians if I am to give a serious answer to some of the Deputy's questions. The questions about why lawyers are excused and why this is happening now are ones I should be asking of the committee. This is a politically driven process - in the best sense of the word, as I do not suggest that it is manipulative or inappropriate - in the sense that it originated within the EU and national political systems. I have to ask the Deputy why lawyers are being excused, why this is happening now and why it is happening in this way. Perhaps professional groups should ultimately give advice about structural reform across Europe.

The process is being driven by this committee's colleagues and counterparts and I ask the committee why it is being arranged in this manner. Why is the process bedevilled by serious flaws? Why are the serious concerns that have been raised across the EU by the Medical Council, its counterparts, the public and the committee's political peers, being ignored? I cannot enumerate for the committee the many consultations, both public and private, that have taken place in the last year. Numerous European and national meetings have represented opportunities to bring these concerns to the attention of the European Parliament and the Commission. I have been astonished by lack of reaction to the submissions that have been made. No further revision of the proposals has occurred.

The disciplinary process and the specific questions that were asked by Deputy McManus have to be placed in context. The Medical Council is not in a position to comment on any part of the disciplinary process as it is subject to the guidance and restrictions imposed on it by the High Court and the statute under which it operates. The process is subject to the standards of criminal law at all points. Having said that, however, I absolutely reject the implication that the Medical Council is in some way failing to meet its role by allowing substandard structures or institutions to operate. The council's remit does not allow it to examine, explore, sanction, advise or inspect most institutions in the State. Its inspection processes and powers in respect of institutions such as hospitals are limited.

I was not talking about institutions, but about individual medical professionals, for example a person in relation to whom a court judgment has been made ahead of the Medical Council. I do not want to get into that matter - I am just citing it as an example. I appreciate that nobody is perfect, but it should be pointed out that concerns have been expressed by this committee in relation to practices which continued for a long time.

It was difficult for the committee to ascertain when the Medical Council would report on one particular issue that came before the committee.

Professor Bury

I am not aware of any approach by this committee to the Medical Council.

It was not an approach, as such, but it became evident at a meeting of this committee that information was not forthcoming from the Medical Council in relation to the case referred to by Deputy McManus. Absolutely no indication was given of how long it would take, even though the issue was before the courts. No report has emanated from the Medical Council, even though the matter has been heard by the courts.

Professor Bury

I am not sure who was asked to provide information. If one asks the Medical Council for information about its activities, one will receive a prompt and accurate reply. If one cares to put questions to the council about specific cases or issues, the council will, within the remit offered to it by statute and the High Court, respond courteously and promptly. If the Chair wishes to pursue a specific matter, perhaps we can do so later.

If the regulation of individual doctors is to be guided by how an institution performs, the regulation of the institution will determine the performance assessment and the adequacy, or otherwise, of the standards that are met. The Medical Council's disciplinary process operates on the basis of individual patient complaints. Every complaint is taken extraordinarily seriously.

The question of unregistered practice is at the heart of this directive. The Commission has proposed that a doctor registered in another State will be able to practice here, without any reference to the State or the Irish regulatory process. Our principal concern relates to the fact that the standards and guidance of other member states are significantly different to those that apply in Ireland. There is no harmonisation, for example, of what constitutes an offence or professional misconduct across all member states. Good evidence, received from research exercises conducted across Europe in recent years, suggests that something which constitutes an offence in this State will not be perceived as such by our counterparts in Italy or Sweden, and vice versa.

This directive proposes that if an Irish patient makes a complaint against a doctor who holds registration only in another member state, the standards and guidelines of the other state will be used to adjudicate on that complaint. Enormous difficulties are encountered when patients from inner-city Dublin, for example, where I have my practice, make complaints against doctors who they feel have offended, upset or harmed them and who may come from one of the new accession states of eastern Europe. How can a patient in inner-city Dublin be expected to find the address of the Lithuanian equivalent of the Medical Council in order to pursue, through the various barriers which can be immediately identified, his or her complaint? Such a patient may ultimately be told that the subject of his or her complaint may not constitute an offence under the regulations in the doctor's home country and that, therefore, we have no jurisdiction over such matters.

Other administrative, organisational and educational matters need to be considered as part of the debate about unregistered doctors. Perhaps I can give the most concrete example of why the Medical Council believes unregistered practice in this State is unacceptable. Most members of the public believe every doctor is subject to some form of scrutiny and that if they have a problem with a doctor they can approach somebody who will hold that doctor to account. If we institute a system under which a significant number of doctors can validly say they do not have to answer to anybody for what they do, it will undermine the system under which the rest of the profession works and have significant effects throughout the health care sector.

Deputy McManus made a point about equivalent registration authorities. Ireland, the UK, Portugal, Holland and perhaps Austria share similar methods of medical regulation. They have agencies operating fundamentally along the lines of professional self-regulation, with statutory powers which enshrine a responsibility to protect the public interest when dealing with individual doctors. Most other European states perform many of their medical regulatory functions through organs of Government and by direct control of some or all of those functions through Departments or their agencies.

I welcome Professor Bury. Obviously, one of the most important functions of the Medical Council is to protect the interests of patients. Having worked as a GP, I realise that it frequently has difficulties communicating with doctors. Is there a language test for doctors who are not from this country or from an English-speaking country? If not, why not?

Another issue of concern is the level of competence that exists in other countries in respect of both medical schools and the different specialities. Is the standard achieved in cardiology or general practice, for example, in other EU countries as high as that in Ireland? Is Professor Bury happy in this regard?

I am concerned that a person can enter this country and work for 16 weeks without being regulated or checked. It would be appalling if people could work for even one minute unchecked. I am delighted that this has been brought to the attention of the committee.

Sitting suspended at 10.34 a.m. and resumed at 10.55 a.m.

Has Deputy Devins completed his questioning?

Yes, Chairman.

I was intrigued when Professor Bury mentioned that matters which might be an offence in this jurisdiction might not be an offence in other EU countries. Other than abortion I ask what else he had in mind?

I welcome the Medical Council and Professor Bury and I thank them for their presentation which was clear and to the point. I am a medical practitioner and I share the concerns of everyone regarding the protection of the public. There have been cases of doctors coming to this country whose registration was not in order, for instance in that case concerning the psychiatrist. If the lawyers decide to opt out then it raises serious questions. I find it difficult to get a lawyer to sign anything. You seem to say that it is up to the politicians. We are still paying the price for the over implementation of the nitrates directive and the habitats directive whereas if the work is done at an early stage then perhaps the situation could be changed.

I ask if Europe is regulating the practice of medicine and viewing doctors not as practitioners but as professionals and trying to free up the market. If all the harmonisation was in place with standard procedures as regards discipline and complaints procedures, what would your position be about a directive? I know well that it is not acceptable as it needs a lot more work.

Deputy Fitzpatrick, have you a forethought or an afterthought?

An afterthought. I take the point that there are not medical councils in every EU state but there are surely analogous bodies and I ask if they should not be talking to each other. Professor Bury made the point that it is a politically driven directive but most of us depend on practical and specialist advice from people in the field. Were these discussions not taking place outside the EU Parliament?

In terms of your own organisation and sister organisations across Europe and inthe expanded Europe, has any effort beenmade to harmonise your qualifications and practices?

Professor Bury

I will reply to those points. In answer to Dr. Devins's questions, EU graduates coming to this country are dealt with under the current EU directives. Non-EU graduates are subject to national scrutiny. Our current hospital system is made up of almost 4,000 NCHDs of whom 1,200 are non-EU graduates who principally come from India, Pakistan, Egypt and Sudan. As you well know the system has been characterised by its reliance on those doctors for many years. They are a superb input to our system and are the engine that drives most of our NCHD systems. Those doctors are subject to the temporary registration assessment scheme of scrutiny which includes both language and clinical competence assessments. On entry to this country they are offered temporary registration and the Medical Council's policy is that they should then enter training posts and be offered high quality training while in this country. We have worked hard for at least five years to achieve thosegoals.

The counterpart to that is a doctor from another EU state, a graduate from Germany, Italy, Greece or France. If a doctor has graduated from one of those countries he or she can administratively gain full registration in Ireland by simply completing the appropriate application forms. If that doctor is in good standing in their own country - by that I do not mean that they have paid their fees, I mean that they are not subject to significant scrutiny or discipline - then that doctor automatically gains full registration in this country.

This proposed directive is welcome because on the one hand it introduces the concept of a language assessment within Europe and it introduces in a very guarded fashion the principle of some form of assessment of competence. The methodology it uses to introduce that principle of competence assessment is, we believe, almost unworkable.

The question of what is not an offence is very important. At a research level we have conducted an exercise within an organisation called the CIO, the Conference Internationale des Ordres, which is the EU collegiate body of all medical regulatory agents in Europe and has been in existence very successfully for many years. We conducted an exercise at research level approximately five years ago and I will be pleased to send members a copy of the outcome of the research. It demonstrated at a theoretical level that there are enormous variations across Europe in terms of what constitutes an offence, what process is used to adjudicate on that offence and what penalty may then be associated with it. The permutations and combinations of all these things are extraordinary. For instance, reproductive medicine is an obvious example, but it is not one for today. An interesting example, for instance, is one of the member states in Europe which was asked questions, based on vignettes. It was asked, “If you were confronted in your organisation by a complaint from a patient that X had happened”(a) could it be a prima facie case, in other words, would you act on it? (b) how would you act on it and (c) if you convicted the guy of this, how serious an offence would it be and what would you do about it? One of the vignettes was of a mother who asked a general practitioner to visit her three year old with a high temperature, florid rash and a severe headache, and the doctor refused citing that he was busy at home. It would be obvious to any lay member that it was a seriously ill child. Clearly in this country, even in a hypothetical situation, most people would take a grave view of a doctor who refused to act in such an emergency. In several member states that particular event was one on which no action would be taken. The variety and scope for non-congruity, so to speak, is enormous. We have real concerns that the variety is as broad as the analogy between civil or criminal law, and Irish patients are not protected by it.

The supplementary question is about the CIO. The CIO, or more recently the chief executive officer, the Conference European des Ordre de Medecins is convened in Paris by the French d’Ordre, the French Medical Council. All competent authorities within the EU are invited to take part. The system of administration in Europe of professions and sectors is by competent authorities nominated by Government. The competent authorities exist in each member state but these competent authorities are equivalent to the medical council structure in only the countries I mentioned earlier. In most other countries they are divisions of either the union organisations, in other words, the professional representative organisations, or organs of Government. It is extraordinary to see the variety of methodologies used for registration or regulation.

Deputy Cowley phrased it interestingly when he said the lawyers were given the opportunity to opt out. Perhaps they were, but being offered the opportunity to opt in or out of regulation is not something with which I am familiar. It appears the issue should be applied to all professions, or to none, or to some. Let me be very clear. We are not seeking some protected environment for doctors - far from it. What is very clear is that doctors and medicine need the support of clear regulation and clear scrutiny. We have always welcomed that. What we are saying is that medicine cannot be treated as engineering, law or the myriad of other professions proposed. We do not believe all these agencies or professions can be put into one box, shake it about and say they are all the same. That does not make sense.

Is Professor Bury saying that while the proposed directive is aspirational in reality it is not achievable?

Professor Bury

We believe it is not professionally achievable. Our concern is that politically it may be achievable in law. We may find ourselves having to transpose into Irish regulation a statute that has been passed at European level, about which our concerns have not been addressed.

I refer to two points to which Deputy Cowley referred, which are important. At the moment, if a doctor who has graduated in another EU state wishes to practise in Ireland, the doctor, who applies administratively for registration in Ireland, is automatically entitled to registration provided there are no disciplinary restrictions on the doctor's licence. If that is the case, the Medical Council has the option to explore what sanctions, if any, it wishes to impose on the doctor. One case mentioned is not quite analogous but it raises a relevant situation. If a doctor who is registered in another EU state applies for registration here, he or she will be granted it but he may be subject to restrictions on his licence based on discipline carried out elsewhere.

That is gone if we enforce this requirement. It is gone not just for 16 weeks but 32 weeks. Someone asked me to speculate about motivation but I do not intend to do so. Because of this system, it is now possible to work in this country from 28 August of one year for 16 weeks until approximately the middle of March of the next year, for 16 weeks of that year, without registration. One can then take a three month break and move on to the next EU member state. One can then feasibly practise one's profession for the next ten years or so across Europe without ever registering with any other State or being subject to any other scrutiny. That is not the medical mobility I want to see.

I was asked about the final options. We want to see regulated medical mobility that protects the public. This is an old fashioned, antiquated way of achieving that. If we want to harmonise not just the standards, but the administration of medical regulation, we should jump a generation and establish a European medical regulatory agency and use IT based communications to establish a computerised central register at European level, which by default of my registration in Ireland, brings me on to a central bank to which I do not have to contribute or have gaps in. Nonetheless, I will still be a registered European doctor. In association with that technological level, one must harmonise the standards of education and training, scrutiny, practice and discipline. All of these things are achievable but the agency or forum to achieve that is not in existence currently because the CIO is a two day a year conference, which gives us an opportunity to exchange views on matters of current interest. However, it has no organs with which to process change.

Two other people wish to contribute. Can I be excused as chairman because I am leading off in the Committee of Public Accounts, which has commenced. The vice-chairman, Deputy Moloney, will take the chair.

I thank the Medical Council for coming here this morning. Perhaps the question I will put to Professor Bury has already been answered in my absence. Does he have a profile of the type of doctor he thinks the EU directive will attract? In other words, will they be junior doctors or doctors who are in training or in need of training? I ask that on foot of the picture he painted of how they can criss-cross the European Union, hopping from one member state to the next. I would have major concerns about doctors coming here not being registered with the Medical Council.

Given that we will not know anything about their educational background, this will create a huge exposure for patients, not to mention the standards to which they will be subjected. Will you outline what you consider the Oireachtas can do about this? You mentioned that Austria, the United Kingdom, Portugal and the Netherlands have professional self regulation similar to the regime that prevails here. Is there a campaign in those member states in terms of lobbying parliaments with a view to blocking the proposal?

I have taken the opportunity to inquire into the issue raised by the Chairman and Deputy McManus. This is an increasingly litigious society. Do you consider that the ethics committee of the Medical Council has the scope to address this proposal and should it operate on a full-time basis? The delay in the case referred to is extraordinary and unsatisfactory, especially for those taking it.

I am sure the Deputy is referring to the fitness to practice committee.

Professor Bury

Competence assurance is a huge issue and cuts across many of the themes which have been raised. I will ask Dr. Hillery to outline what is meant by it. We will be delighted to make a presentation to the committee on this and other issues of concern to members.

Dr. John Hillery

Competence is a manifestation to the public of people being up to date in what they say they are able to do. It means, for example, that medical practitioners will have some kind of certification to indicate that as graduate specialists, they are up to date and that this assertion is supported by their peers. The specialist register was introduced in the life of the last council and those with an independent practice, such as general practitioners and psychiatrists like myself, are entitled to apply for certification indicating our specialist status, which should be displayed.

The Oireachtas recently debated what should be done to provide protection to the public against the activities of unregistered doctors or those posing as doctors and it was suggested that it enact a rule providing that people must show they are registered medical practitioners. There is no need to do that because doctors are meant to show their registration in their surgeries. It is a matter of educating the public to ask to see it.

The next step for the council was to provide that the public might also ask for certification that practitioners can do what they say. It means, for example, that my certification can indicate I am able to be a psychiatrist and that I know the most up to date treatment. Competence assurance structures should be at the back of that. It would mean, for example, that I enter a five year cycle of re-accreditation, education and audit, during which I achieve certain goals. This will enable my regulatory body to advise the council that I am up to date as a psychiatrist and am competent to be on the register of medical specialists.

In response to a question raised by Deputy McManus, this is a voluntary process. It has no legislative underpinning and we are waiting for the new medical practitioners legislation. We have consulted widely with the Department and the Minister asking that it be included in the legislation. However, we still want it to be voluntary because we consider that as self regulating professionals, we should be able to take responsibility for our own professionalism and should be able to become part of this process without being forced to do so. It is a matter for the public and employers to ask doctors to show they are competent and are part of these competence assurance structures.

We are waiting to see how the legislation will deal with this but in the meantime we are doing nothing. We have introduced the system, which is already up and running. As of 1 January, 50% of doctors on the register of medical specialists are recording their educational activities and their peer review activities. At the end of the year they will be asked to account for their participation in these activities to their training body. Next year the remaining 50% of doctors on the register of medical specialists will join the scheme. There will then be a five year cycle where people will be reviewed. However, at present we cannot do anything about people's position on the register of medical specialists because there is no legislation to allow us to remove people from the register or to encourage them to take redemptive steps if they are falling behind or whatever. It is totally voluntary at present, but the profession is becoming involved and it is up and running. We will be more than happy to give written or oral submissions if requested by the committee.

Professor Bury

The only key mandatory role we believe exists for competence assurance is that it should be part of a contract to require practitioners to be on the specialist register before appointment to a position that allows for independent clinical practice. That issue must be confronted by a variety of other agencies besides the Medical Council. However, the public deserves that assurance.

Senator Feeney asked about the profile of migrants. We do not know and can only speculate about how people might use this directive if it was to be introduced. At present, approximately 200 doctors come from EU member states to Ireland each year, many of them from the United Kingdom. Many come here for training purposes, so they take up non-independent practice positions. Another group would probably be general practitioners who have completed their training in the United Kingdom and are returning to GP positions here. Our concern is that we may create a new class of professional here of itinerant doctor who could sustain a career without registration across the proposed 24 member states of the European Union. While many of those doctors may have worthwhile motives and offer useful service, it is not a model of practice with which I am comfortable.

On the question of national lobbying and the role of sister organisations, there is no co-ordinated consolidated campaign here and far be it for us to have one. We have close links with our sister bodies in this country, including An Bord Altranais the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, the Dental Council and the Medical Council. They share our concerns and have repeatedly put these issues in the public arena. We have collectively and repeatedly written to the various Ministers, to all of our MEPs and those Members of the Oireachtas who have displayed an interest in this matter to bring our concerns to your attention.

This is a sovereign Parliament and it has a responsibility to the public it serves, as we do, to bring our collective concerns to the attention of those who will make these decisions. At present, those decisions are collated or brought forward by the Department of Education and Science and by the office of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. These appear to be the channels in Europe through which these issues are raised. It is a matter for you to decide how you would view the matter we have brought to your attention, but if you are as concerned as we are, it appears that they should be brought to the attention of the relevant Ministers and onward to European level. We will be happy to brief the committee on how the disciplinary process works.

We can make no comment on potential cases or on current business. That is not because it is our wish but because the High Court or Supreme Court say so. Having said that, I must put it to the committee that whatever people have been told or whatever the perception put out by the media or other sources, it is usually inaccurate. The disciplinary process within the Medical Council is at least as efficient as the courts system and operates on absolutely equivalent lines and costs. The process is operated by members of council who are all volunteers. I am an elected member of council as is Dr. Hillery. Our five year terms, following election by our peers, are fitted in on top of all our other business and responsibilities, all of which suffer. We have a small number of members nominated by the Minister to represent his or her interests or the lay interest.

All of that work is encapsulated, from a disciplinary point of view, in teams of around five members of council hearing individual cases. About 20 inquiries are heard each year and 65 days of inquiries are held each year. That average has stayed quite steady over recent years. We have put fundamental and far reaching proposals to Government repeatedly for the reform of the Medical Practitioners Act to allow us to deal more efficiently with the complaints which are validly put to us by members of the public about individual doctors.

The legislative process has not allowed us to reform the process to make it safe, effective and efficient and to serve the public more appropriately. Give us the tools and we will do it a damn sight better than we are doing it right now. Right now we are doing it to the best extent we are allowed by the legislative and judicial sanctions imposed on us.

I would be grateful if we were told the proposals the council has put to the Minister. Deputy O'Malley made the point, that considering the amount of work the Medical Council has to do and realising that all of the members have occupations or jobs outside the council, that the apparent backlog in dealing with certain cases may well be solved by some other approach. If there were proposals available I would like to see them at this committee.

Indeed, and in order to facilitate the change.

Professor Bury

We will make a presentation of our proposals for reform of the Medical Practitioners Act to this committee. It is not appropriate to do that now but it seems that it is something we should do. I am delighted to bring that to the committee's attention.

I am not sure when this directive is likely to be voted on but I put questions to the Minister on both aspects of what we have been discussing. I asked about the 16 core specialties that will be recognised and about the 16 week period when doctors would not be registered. The Minister's reply to the first problem was that he was speaking to the Minister for Education and Science, to the Tánaiste and the Medical Council. He seemed to recognise that there was a problem. Unfortunately I did not bring the response to the question on the issue of the 16 weeks with me. My memory of it is that the Minister did not express any concern about it. He seemed to feel it was covered. My impression was that he was not as concerned as the IMO and others who have written to us on the subject.

We now have legislation which permits us to scrutinise EU legislation and to direct the Minister prior to voting on a particular issue. If the committee feels this is a matter of concern then we should communicate that to the Minister. It is extraordinarily difficult to turn around any EU directive that is any way advanced. From a practical point of view we are, perhaps, into damage limitation. I realise the council members are volunteers but have they any suggestion as to how the damage can be limited particularly in the area which appears to be of major concern from the public interest point of view, namely the 16 weeks unregistered practice? I see the potential for certain individuals to wander around Europe indefinitely, especially as Europe gets larger, without any form of registration. Is there a practical suggestion as to how the directive can be changed? This is a tall order but the council will not be able to scrap an entire EU directive.

Professor Bury

Thank you for the advice. I am not familiar with the transcript or the Minister's reply.

I will find it and provide it.

Professor Bury

I have talked repeatedly to the Minister and his officials about this and my sense is that they are as concerned, if not more so, as we are.

That must have been recently because it is a couple of months now since I submitted the questions.

Professor Bury

In regard to turning the boat around, we have no intention of sinking the boat. We welcome this but we want to see some core issues addressed. This is more complex than I have presented it. I would not suggest that this is a comprehensive presentation of something that is detailed. The 93/16 directive has provision for unregistered practice for up to 15 weeks. That is already part of the EU directive system. My understanding of both the sense and shape of that paragraph is that it is intended for extraordinary use. It is about situations where emergencies arise or where there are unusual circumstances that make exceptions necessary to the registration principle. To the best of our knowledge ten years of the directive offering that window has not brought abuse. There is no evidence of abuse.

We would be happy to see some such window continue and would be very happy to see specific cross-Border elements built into this. Ireland has one of the longest land borders, between Ireland and Northern Ireland, in the Continent but there is no mobility across it. I offer the example of the Omagh disaster. Something like ten or 12 registered medical practitioners from this State travelled to Omagh as part of the response to the bombing in Omagh. A significant number of nursing staff, specialised and otherwise, also participated. They were professionally protected because the GMC has the provision to allow unregistered doctors to enter the UK for a brief period and to practise there without fear of sanction. Should the reverse happen we can offer no such assurance. Our legislation will involve my taking up arms against such doctors who come to this part of the State to offer help in such circumstances. That is a disaster and is completely inappropriate. We have repeatedly asked that some provision for cross-Border practice and emergency practice be built into our national legislation.

Turning the ship around would be along something like those lines. We would welcome the opportunity for a window of emergency practice to exist. We would welcome some guided cross-Border practice where registration on one side of the Border allowed rights of practice on the other side with, perhaps, some restriction or guidance involved. That is reasonable and appropriate but this blanket offer must be examined more closely than it is being examined currently. I hope that makes sense or is helpful.

It makes sense.

I apologise for my absence during part of the meeting. I was in the Seanad. I thought the idea of the 16 weeks was to cover situations such as where an international expert on some technique could be brought in to demonstrate the technique. Is that an important consideration for the legislation?

Professor Bury

Again, there are very small numbers. We can get into the detail of this.

There are small numbers.

Professor Bury

It is certainly a provision at a number of levels, but it is not currently a provision within national legislation. We have repeatedly come to blows with our colleagues who bring in the world expert on technique X for three days to demonstrate his or her knowledge. Because it will involve some contact with patients, they suddenly find two days before that Professor X cannot actually demonstrate his or her technique because he or she needs to be a registered medical practitioner. We have no facility at all to offer him or her a short cut except——

Dr. Brian Lea

I hate to contradict my president but there is a provision, which he might not remember, in the new legislation of 2002 which has only just come in. We make the rules and the Minister then has to approve them. I think we have done that and are waiting to hear from the Minister. This means that the person who wants to demonstrate experience can do so.

In regard to the 16 weeks, one can get somebody coming into the country but he or she is expected to notify the Medical Council, beforehand if possible, but at least afterwards so that there is a record of it. The only other point I wish to make - and pardon me for interrupting - is that the EU directive on free movement, as it is commonly referred to, actually works. Doctors get registered and do so very quickly. It may be a continental thing, if I can put it that way, as opposed to being from an Irish point of view but we certainly do not experience any difficulty with registration. The only difficulty in regard to delay that may ever arise is with a body, the Ordre in Europe, which may not respond to one quickly enough, but by and large they get registered.

Professor Bury

In regard to the issue of an expert or other categories of doctor coming in for specific periods to offer services, the Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Act of 2000 introduced that provision but those regulations have not yet been signed into effect. Whether it relates to temporary registration for doctors from outside the EU or EU doctors coming here for other purposes, the situation is as I have described it until the Minister signs into effect the amendment that was passed one year ago.

Dr. Hillery

The core point in this regard, is that in order to bring in an expert one has to demonstrate two things to the Medical Council; first, that the person is an expert and, second, that an Irish doctor will take responsibility for the patients this person sees after he or she has left the country. With this new regulation that type of patient protection may be gone, which is an important difference.

I wish to return to the question of the submission about the legislative change. Professor Bury indicated that he would be willing to come in but I think a reference was made to the work programme.

The work programme is pretty much tied up until June. I could suggest a written submission from the Medical Council and perhaps we could organise a meeting for the autumn. Would that be acceptable?

At that point we can probably have a look at it and invite people in.

Professor Bury

I would be very happy to facilitate the committee in any way but to be honest, what the committee has received is some 15 years worth of submissions.

Can it be condensed it into something more manageable?

Professor Bury

The door of the registrar's office could not be opened at one stage with the height of submissions in regard to the Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Act. I am very happy to——

This a list of promised legislation, in effect.

Professor Bury

I am very happy to summarise some of the key issues and we will certainly condense them into as simple a form as possible, but to be quite honest because it is a pitch in some cases, I would value the opportunity to speak to some of those points, which may not be sensible or clear otherwise.

Can I make a suggestion? It will not do the Medical Council's case any good, in terms of securing our help, if it arrives with case loads of information. A brief synopsis highlighting areas into which we can be encouraged to go if we have a particular interest ourselves, would be more useful. Because it is such a critical area - and one needs all the help one can get if one is looking for legislative change - it would be useful if we got a synopsis of the most pertinent points so we could assist.

Professor Bury

I would be delighted.

The Medical Practitioners Act was passed for the protection of the public. We should listen to the Medical Council and if it believes an oral submission is required in addition to a written submission perhaps we could make available half an hour or an hour for this purpose. They are the people who know best.

I agree with what Deputy O'Malley said. We should concentrate on the very worst areas.

Is any of this relevant to advances in Internet medicine? Maybe I should not be asking this at 12.20 p.m.

Professor Bury

Telemedicine is an enormously important area and has clear relevance to what we are talking about. The practice of medicine across borders, or remotely, is becoming quite a dangerous business. We need to put some proposals in terms of how that might be dealt with. We see that advance as a welcome one but believe it needs to be regulated. It is very much an issue.

I suggest that at our next private session we will discuss if we can fit in a half hour submission at a later date. Is that agreed. Agreed.

It is the decision of the committee that the clerk should formally seek a copy of the Tánaiste's submission for subsequent circulation to the members. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank Professor Bury and Doctors Lea and Hillery for attending the committee meeting and for giving such an informative presentation.

The joint committee adjourned at 11:35 a.m. until Thursday, 20 March 2003.
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