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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 May 2006

Irish Medical Council: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. John Hillery, president of the Medical Council, Dr. Colm Quigley, vice-president; Professor Muiris Fitzgerald, chairman of the education and training committee, Mr. John Lamont, registrar, Dr. Lynda Sisson, director of competence assurance and Ms Margo Topham.

Before I ask them to make their presentation, I would like to draw their attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Dr. Hillery to make his presentation on behalf of the Medical Council and committee members will then ask their questions.

Dr. John Hillery

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation. I hope this will be the start of an ongoing relationship between the council and the committee because a key part of our duty to protect the public interest is that we be accountable. One of the main ways we can do that is to appear before the committee to tell it what we are doing and answer questions. We cover much ground in our work and today I plan to focus on two issues, but we will hopefully address any other issues that arise in questions from committee members.

The two issues I want to address are the inadequacy and flawed nature of the current Medical Practitioners Act and our plans for proactive regulation — what we call our competence assurance structures. These structures will confirm that most doctors practise to a high standard, protect patients from underperforming doctors and allow us to intervene with underperforming doctors to get them back on track before they cause patient harm or harm to their careers. The first aim is to reassure the public, because most doctors do a good job, keep up to date and work well for their patients. Second, we hope to prevent doctors falling away from that type of practice. The prime aim is to protect the public, but we feel we can do that by ensuring that doctors are kept in practice and that they practise to a high degree of competence.

The second issue I want to address is our role in medical education. This probably does not get the coverage it should. The issue is particularly pertinent following the recent Buttimer and Fottrell reports and the ongoing queries from the public as to why we do not have sufficient doctors from our medical schools to staff our hospitals. We need to ensure we produce more medical students. Unfortunately, the council has not been able to do much about this over the past 20 years due to the HEA's cap on EU medical students in our universities.

Members are probably aware that we have produced several reports on medical education pointing out the need for more resources to provide for EU medical students in our schools and the need to increase the capacity of the health service to train Irish doctors. We are concerned that because of lack of resources more medical students are being put into our hospitals, resulting in stress on patients and reducing the quality of medical education. If the recommendations of the Fottrell report are implemented, particularly if allied to aspects of the Hanly and Buttimer reports with regard to training doctors after medical school but before specialisation, that is the way forward. However, in view of the needs of our system, time is short.

The competence procedures for fully trained doctors, the educational plans for medical students and doctors in training will be of little use unless resources are put into them. We also need other changes in the system. We believe there needs to be a licensing systems for hospitals, private and public, so that hospitals are inspected on a regular basis to ensure they can do the job they say they can and patients will be safe when they go into them. As committee members are aware, there is no system currently whereby hospitals must be licensed before they can open their doors to patients. We do not find that satisfactory.

There must also be clinical governance systems. This will mean having a national audit of all procedures in all hospitals and health sites to discover the outcomes for treatments in various areas of the country, compare them across the country and ensure they are up to international standards so that patients get top quality service. Clinical governance would also support doctors, nurses and other staff in the health services in being competent and up to date and ensure there are robust risk management procedures in place so there is minimal risk to patients when being treated.

We also believe there must be action on the templates that have been issued. Members will be aware that the Bill dealing with the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, is currently in the Dáil. It provides an opportunity to provide this type of robust governance structure within the health service. We are somewhat concerned that the legislation will only apply to public facilities, not private ones. In view of the private-public mix in this country, if we have a system in place that only audits the public facilities, patients will not be protected and standards will not be ensured. We ask for this to be examined as the Bill goes through the Dáil.

The plans for an increase in medical student numbers must take into account the needs of patients. Currently, there is no further capacity in the system for medical students, but there are options to use other sites for training students. We have suggested to the medical schools that these should be explored. It is also important that the establishments that grant funding for the establishment of new medical student programmes insist there is a realistic chance that those applying supply the proper outcome for students, namely, proper education based on international standards and research.

In general, doctors in Ireland practise to a high standard and want to show this. However, they are concerned that the type of advocacy I and my colleagues have made over the past few months for change in the Medical Practitioners Act will lead to a new Act that places demands on them without the requisite supports in place to help them deliver on those demands. If that happened, it would be bad for doctors and patients.

We exist in a time when there has been a failure in medical regulation in Ireland, but the real failure has been in the systems. We act under the 1978 Act, which was of its time. The council found out about Dr. Neary from a leak through the newspapers, but acted quickly. Dr. Neary was removed from practice within a short time of evidence being supplied that he was a risk to patients. The timeline was seven to ten days. Unfortunately, we did not find out about him until damage had been done. That is a fault with the general system in the health service and with our regulatory Bill, the Medical Practitioners Act.

Due to my ongoing nervousness about the air travel example, I have been using the example of the NCT. Any car that has been on the road for a certain length of time must have a regular NCT to ensure it is safe to carry passengers and be on the road. We do not wait until there is a major crash on the M50 and people are hurt to check the car that crashed. However, that is what we do with doctors. We wait until something major happens and only then try to see why it happened. We just deal with the doctor rather than what went on around him or her. That is no longer satisfactory.

Dr. Carmody is another example of why our system is not helpful for patient safety. He came to my and my predecessor's attention over many years as someone who should be reviewed in more depth. However, that is not possible at the moment. We can only intervene after patients have been harmed. We are looking for statutory powers to introduce a system of audit, peer review and practice review that all doctors would undergo and that would be especially intense for doctors who give cause for concern.

In 1997, my predecessor, Professor Gerry Bury, who appeared before the committee a few years ago, launched a document for the profession outlining a system of competence assurance for all doctors who complete their training. Since 2000 we have been recording the activities of professional development of most doctors in independent training. We have conducted pilot studies in audit and peer review and we are setting up a pilot study in performance assessment. Some doctors have volunteered to undergo this process and we have just finished a series of interviews with members of the public who will be assessors in this process. We have been very pleased with the number of people who have come forward. We plan to start it in the autumn. Again, I emphasise that this will be a pilot and will be voluntary. We cannot do anything until we get legislation and resources to ensure this will be a nationwide and ongoing activity.

I repeat this issue, which is important. On many occasions since the report into Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital was published I have been asked how patients can be happy that they are safe when they go to see a doctor or go to a hospital. Obviously, knowing that one's doctor is competent is a start. However, unless the systems surrounding the doctor are also competent, a patient cannot be secure in the knowledge of having a safe outcome. We need licensing and inspection of clinical sites, continuing education, audit and risk management for all people and procedures in the health service, which needs to be supported centrally. I believe the model is about to come into the Oireachtas. However, the concern is that it does not apply to all sites. We need all staffs, not just doctors, to be manifesting their competence. This needs to include nurses, physiotherapists, dieticians, administrators and everyone who is involved in patient care. What doctors do is just part of what is needed.

We have a rather large remit, which can be broken down into committees. We were not able to bring everyone along today and we would not have time to talk about all our activities today. Unfortunately our registration takes place at point of exit from training, which in the modern world is unsatisfactory. People finishing their internship go on the register of medical practitioners. They can go on the register of medical specialists when they finish their training, but that is voluntary. Once on that register they remain there for life unless they cause severe problems and are found guilty of professional misconduct, in which case we can ask the High Court to remove them from the register. That is not satisfactory in any profession today and everyone recognises it needs to change.

Regarding the medical schools and postgraduate training, we welcome the Buttimer and Fottrell reports, which we hope will be implemented sooner rather than later. The expansion of places for training students and doctors must not be done at the expense of patients, which means we need more capacity in the system. There must be no dilution in the standards of education in an effort to provide more doctors. We are gravely concerned that people see a market opportunity to build medical schools nationally. We do not feel that is the way it should be done. We should consider the needs of the State and should be looking at a critical mass of expertise and research in the institutions that are granted the licences to provide this education. The council would be concerned if it was expected to accredit every person who was planning to establish a medical school. A partnership approach needs to be taken between ourselves, the educational providers and the legislators on how this moves forward.

We will not address today the issues of ethical guidance or medical ionising radiation, which is an activity of council of which hardly anyone is aware. We are about to write to the Minister to suggest that control of medical ionising radiation should rest outside the council because the people using this radiation for treatment are not just doctors.

Our proposal on competence assurance structures is that everyone who has finished training should be on the register of medical specialists, including general practitioners. All those on the register should need to undergo or show they are undergoing a five-year cycle of activities to maintain their competence. While we believe that most doctors are doing this at the moment, we cannot prove it to the committee and we want to be in a position to do so. We believe that if there is no compliance then the person should not be registered as a specialist and should not see patients as a specialist. However, in most cases there should be remedial processes available to them to get back into a position where they can be in independent practice and see patients.

We will be asking people to provide yearly evidence of such activities, showing that they are involved in audit of their practice, that is they are comparing what they are doing with international high standards, changing their practice if need be and then reviewing it again. That should be a constant part of everyone's work as a doctor. They should be involved in peer review in a formal setting where they sit down with people from their specialty, look at what they have been doing to keep up to date, review the audit and their practice to see if this is satisfactory, and get advice as to what they should do if they need to change it. We also want this to involve non-medical assessors.

For those who give cause of concern that there may be a risk to the public, there should be a more in-depth procedure involving a number of different tools and approaches including visits to their practice, and meetings with patients and colleagues. As I indicated earlier, this would involve trained assessors, both medical and non-medical. Some of the examples given recently that doctors are not capable of doing such monitoring are based on caricatures of assessment and are not based on assessments done by trained assessors. In the modern world this process needs to be trained and professionalised. We have suggested that each year 1,000 doctors in independent practice should undergo an in-depth assessment. Judge Harding Clark suggested 2,000 and we are considering the financial implication of that. However, we will do it once that is what is requested of us.

The current reactive system is bad for patients and doctors. We wait until damage is done. The council has proposed proactive systems that would promote standards, protect patients and show that most doctors are doing a good job. Doctors are afraid that this might be introduced without appropriate resources and legislation and that they would end up carrying even more stress than they do at present. If it is properly resourced and properly legislated for, the profession has nothing to fear and definitely patients can feel considerably better about how they are looked after on a daily basis.

I reiterate the point about medical education, which must be based in academic institutions with the capacity and clinical systems in place to provide high quality education fit for doctors who can deliver high quality care and enter the type of independent practice we have outlined in the years to come.

I thank Dr. Hillery for his very illuminating presentation. We will take questions in groups of three and members may indicate if they wish to direct their questions to specific people on the panel. The first tranche will be Deputies, Twomey and McManus, and Senator Browne.

I welcome the representatives of the Medical Council. I had hoped they could have given a somewhat more robust defence of their organisation because protecting patients is the role of the Medical Council. It has been suggested recently that Medical Council failures have led to not protecting patients as should have happened. The Neary report is the latest one we have read. During the course of the Shipman controversy in the UK, we raised issues about the Medical Council here and how we were protecting patients. When we react in that way, doctors see it as merely reacting to a few rogues in the system and everybody then gets the wrong impression as to what is happening. Not many people know that the Medical Council reported Dr. Neary to itself and when it acted, it acted appropriately. The Medical Council had nothing to do with the three obstetricians who went to Dundalk to review Dr. Neary's cases at the time. That has got lost in the public debate and to a certain extent it makes the Medical Council appear complicit in what happened there rather than acting appropriately when it did.

The council should be more robust in what audit peer review and clinical governance mean for the health system. These terms have been used on a regular basis since Judge Harding Clark wrote her report. However, their meaning may be lost on people. Audit peer review and competence assurance in the Irish medical care system would need considerable resources. It should be made crystal clear that millions of euro of funding and many additional personnel would be needed to do this properly and to protect patients. It is quite clear from the presentation that this has been a concern for the Medical Council since 1997. It is now 2006, but we are nowhere near clinical audit competence assurance or peer review in the Irish health care system on a regulatory basis. It might be in place on a voluntary basis, but it is certainly not there on a regulatory basis. It should be made quite clear that we have not made any progress in this regard since 1997. People have chosen to ignore this area, other than when crises like the Shipman and Neary cases have arisen, because such huge resources are involved. We should state clearly that it is a very poor way of dealing with this issue.

We should be honest about what is happening with the Fottrell and Buttimer reports on medical education. The resources necessary to train the number of doctors who are needed in the Irish health care system have not been given to our universities and medical schools. A great deal of media coverage was given to the big presentations made by the Tánaiste and the Minister for Education and Science in this regard. People like the representatives of the Medical Council need to state quite honestly that little or nothing has been done. The proposals outlined by the Tánaiste and the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, are not enough to solve this problem. We will have a manpower crisis in respect of doctors, in particular. The Medical Council, which is supposed to speak on behalf of patients, should make it quite clear, rather than leaving it to the universities and politicians like me to do so, that the current approach is inadequate and will not work unless it is resourced properly.

The delegation referred to the Health Information and Quality Authority legislation, which will make changes to standards and systems. The authority will not have any role in respect of the personnel in the health care system. Its operations will relate to standards and systems within the hospitals. The Bill has not yet been brought before the Dáil — it is out for public consultation — and will not be before the end of the year. It will not come into play until next year, at least. If the general election is called before the Bill is passed, we will have to start all over again after the election.

Judge Harding Clark's recommendations have not been implemented. It should be made crystal clear to everybody that there is no great desire to implement them. The Medical Council will not get the blame if action is not taken quickly enough. Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals will be accused of not moving fast enough in this regard.

The general public, whose interests are being protected by the Medical Council, does not know what the council is doing. I have participated in numerous debates with other politicians in the Dáil and with other people outside the House. People constantly confuse the Medical Council, the Royal College of Surgeons and Comhairle na nOspidéal. They do not understand that the Medical Council has a role in protecting patients. When the council has been mentioned in recent months, it has been mentioned in a very negative way. It was seen to be somehow complicit in the Dr. Neary case. Many people referred to the collegiality that existed in that instance. The council was almost seen as being part of the problem. It should be far more robust in defending its role as the defender of patients. This has been an ongoing issue since 1997.

The Medical Council should also be far more robust in getting the Department of Health and Children, or whoever the relevant Minister is, to deal with the issues of clinical audit and governance. If there is not a climate of everyone working together, health service personnel will think the council is just trying to find a scapegoat. That would not do anything for patient protection. We need to be quite clear in this regard. I ask the representatives of the council to be more honest in stating what they think is achievable in areas like manpower. I refer to the crisis pertaining to the Fottrell and Buttimer reports, for example. The council should honestly outline what is needed if we are to introduce clinical audit and governance.

It seems that the Tánaiste is in favour of a lay majority on the membership of the Medical Council as a way of solving all the council's problems. If we provide for a lay majority, however, the council's role will change from that of a self-regulatory body to that of a statutory body. The need for the resources which are entailed in this regard would also change dramatically. The council needs to inform people of its views because soundbites will not protect patients. We need to make clear what will be involved in any systems change of this nature. We should state that the failure to invest resources in the present system has caused these problems. We will not protect patients by making the council a self-regulatory body, rather than a statutory body, unless we invest additional resources. I ask the representatives of the Medical Council to comment on that.

I thank the delegation from the Medical Council for attending this meeting. I compliment the council on its role in the preparation of the proposed medical practitioners Bill. Issues relating to competence assurance have been highlighted by the council for many years. It is to the council's credit that it has been proactive in this regard.

I am not sure that the extent of the seismic shock that was created by the Neary report has been fully taken on board by the Medical Council. I appreciate the council's role in dealing with the matter. I agree with Deputy Twomey that the council performed properly in its handling of the Neary case. We have to bear in mind that Dr. Neary's activities were exposed when a midwife took her courage in her hands and made certain information publicly known. The response she received from a health board administrator led to action being taken. The actions of the medical profession — I refer to the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists — in this case exposed a dangerous culture. It is important not to describe it simply as a systems failure. The collegiality in the profession protected a doctor's practice that could have continued indefinitely if other people had not done certain things to ensure that patients were looked after.

The issue of patient complaints is not as important as some of the other issues which have been mentioned, but I would like the representatives of the Medical Council to comment on one aspect of it. People are often slow to contact the Medical Council with a complaint because they feel the council might end up striking off a doctor. They want to be heard by someone and to have recourse to some kind of system if things go wrong. A person who has been treated badly in a hospital might just want a simple apology, through an ombudsman, for example. Such an approach could resolve many of the difficulties which end up going to court totally unnecessarily. I ask the delegation to comment on the relationship between the medical profession and patients.

It was inevitable that there would be some resistance on the part of doctors to the Medical Council's proposals. I am not sure whether it is a case of the usual resistance to change or a case of resistance that needs to be taken seriously. The traditional individualised responsibility of doctors will change if the council's proposals are accepted. It is okay to talk about such matters in the abstract, but there will be a great deal of resistance to this change when it comes to the crunch. How can we be successful in forcing people to adapt, in effect? I cannot get a fix on that at the moment. Perhaps the success of the council's voluntary competence assurance survey will give us an indication of that. What has been the response to date? It is inevitable that better doctors are more likely to respond positively. Perhaps the representatives of the Medical Council will respond to that.

I agree with the delegation's comments on the Health Information and Quality Authority and private hospitals. The gestation of the authority is at an early stage. I am not holding my breath in the expectation that it will be established in the lifetime of this Government.

I would like to make two more points, the first of which relates to training. The council has said that more capacity needs to be provided. There is a limit on capacity, as the council is well aware. At the moment, there is a market for bringing in non-EU medical undergraduates. The money follows them into the system. There are enormous numbers of them in Ireland and they are very welcome within a certain context, which is that we surely have to meet our own needs first. There is a financial incentive for the medical colleges to bring non-EU citizens to this country. Surely the simplest approach would be to tackle this issue, rather than continually calling for additional capacity. Hospitals are already under pressure due to the large number of students and trainees entering the system. While I have great sympathy for demands for additional capacity, I do not believe they are realisable. We must examine the financial incentives which encourage medical schools to take in so many non-EU citizens on the grounds that they generate revenue. It may not be a fair question but on the issue of resources and supports, does the delegation have any idea of the costs involved?

As Professor Muiris Fitzgerald is present, I cannot resist asking a question on subspecialists, an issue discussed and positively received at the IMO conference. Does Professor Fitzgerald have a view on whether subspecialists will be able to fit into the new regime without difficulty?

I agree with Deputy McManus's comments on capacity. How many of the non-Irish students in medical schools return home immediately after qualifying without working a day in Irish hospitals?

Recently, the Government blamed health service staff for bad practice and insinuated they should work longer hours. With most general practitioners already working long hours, extending the hours of GPs and other health professionals would create problems with patient safety because those working excessive hours are more prone to making medical errors. What is the view of the delegation on this issue? Are health professionals adhering to good practice in this regard? Would patient safety be compromised if health staff, including consultants, worked longer hours?

What is the position with regard to medical practitioners who have been struck off in other countries moving to Ireland to take up employment? For example, could Dr. Harold Shipman have worked in Ireland if he had been released from prison in Britain at some point? Is this a major problem and, if so, how can be solved?

It was stated that private medical facilities do not require a licence. Does the Medical Council not subject such facilities to the same scrutiny as public institutions? How does the delegation respond to the proposal emanating from the Progressive Democrats to sell off public lands at hospital sites to private developers? Is it correct that the Medical Council is not enthusiastic about the plan?

I was slightly confused by the repeated references to various reports given that so many reports have been published. One of the issues with which members must grapple is the tendency of witnesses to toss out the names of reports, which we must then try to identify.

The final page of the Medical Council's presentation refers to protecting the public interest. It also states that without resources, this aim will not be achieved. The use of this caveat strikes me as a get-out clause in that it appears to constitute a demand to pay up.

On the matter of protecting the public interest, I am sure we will not see any new faces on the board. Many members of the public are concerned about how well the board did its job in the past, particularly its role in the Neary case. It is implausible that for 25 years fellow medical professionals did not notice that certain practices were taking place at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. Perhaps no channel is in place to allow medical professionals to express concerns about colleagues. Does a code of silence operate in the medical profession, with doctors choosing to sit back and do nothing? Professionals in privileged positions who deal with members of the public must come to terms with the fact that doing what is right takes guts, rather than money or legislation.

The medical schools regard medical students from abroad as cash cows whose annual fees of €24,000 or €25,000 keep the system ticking over. The schools' approach of training these students and sending them back to their countries of origin creates a considerable drain on our training resources. Perhaps Ireland provides a great service to the world by operating this policy but our responsibility must be to train doctors for the Irish health system. This issue must be addressed.

A purist attitude to training appears to have taken hold with students permitted to train at only a small number of hospitals known as centres of excellence. Some of the practices one finds in these centres are not always admirable, although hospitals do a great deal of excellent work. The training bodies appear to have decided to stop offering training at certain hospitals on the basis that they have insufficient caseload. Training in surgery and other medical disciplines seems to be confined to large hospitals where the groups of six or eight junior doctors follow consultants on their rounds.

As students graduate, they should be dispersed to hospitals in the regions and given a sense of responsibility. Some graduates will move into general practice, etc. If they are placed in the protected environment of a large centre of excellence, all necessary assistance will be available to them. We should consider sending those in training out to regional hospitals. I ask the delegation to comment.

It is vital that a system of audit is introduced in the health service. Should some form of whistle-blowing protection be introduced for fellow professionals who are concerned about practices they observe in the health service?

Before Dr. Hillery replies, Deputy Twomey has been unavoidably called from the meeting. I ask Dr. Hillery to wait until he returns before answering the questions he asked.

Dr. Hillery

I will first address the broad thrust of the questions before asking my colleagues to provide more specific answers. Medical students from abroad are the only reason our medical schools remain open because insufficient Government finance is available for European Union medical students. If the universities decided not to take medical students from abroad, all the medical schools would close within a week. We can arrange to have the relevant reports from our previous two visits sent to members. A further report on recent visits led by Professor Fitzgerald will soon be published.

The issue of training non-EU students presents a major risk to Irish medical education. The risk to Irish medical services is that the medical schools are not producing enough doctors who will remain in the country. Deputy Connolly and Senator Browne are correct that many of those who come here have no intention of staying and return home when their training is complete. The reason we want them here is that the medical schools would close if they did not come.

While we are not providing the standard of medical education we would like, we are providing a good standard of medical education which is supported by the fees paid by overseas students. If they left in the morning, the medical schools would close unless the Government invested a large additional tranche of money in this area. This is a significant risk to the system. If a medical school were to open, for example, on an island in the mid-Pacific close to the countries from which many of the students come, our system would be in big trouble. We have made this known in several reports both to the Government and the public. This must be borne in mind. The Fottrell report provides a solution for this problem.

On the concern about capacity in the system, medical students are taught through the universities in many of the smaller hospitals and appreciate that teaching. They find that the teaching in these hospitals may be more hands-on. They have more access to patients who are not as fatigued from having medical students around. The problem relates to the capacity of the system. As Deputy McManus stated, the system is almost full. What we need to do is reduce the number of non-EU students and replace them with EU students but that would mean a substantial financial investment. Unless this happens, we will stress the system more and more by adding on extra students. I was informed recently that the original proposal that there would be a phasing in of EU students and a phasing out of non-EU students might be in jeopardy and that we might have to add on students. From the Medical Council's point of view, that would be bad for patients and students. I apologise for wandering off the question but I hope I have answered some of the questions on medical students.

Doctors in training in all specialties go to the smaller hospitals but there are issues about resources. This does not necessarily relate to money; it can also relate to ensuring a consultant with three junior staff will have at least one hour with each of them per week to deal with educational issues. As it is very difficult for a busy consultant in a small hospital or in a busy GP's surgery to find time, the resource issue must be answered if we are to continue to provide high quality education.

The Fottrell report relates to the education of medical students, while the Buttimer report relates to the education of junior doctors and answering the needs of such training. As we are all aware, the Hanly report was intended to be the answer to the European working time directive. The solution to many of the issues examined in the Hanly report would advance the quality of services in Ireland but the report has had a bad airing.

A bad press.

Dr. Hillery

I thank the Senator. That is the word for which I was looking. There are many positives in it for patient care.

It is a great friend of Senator Leyden.

It is. I said it should be binned.

Dr. Hillery

To turn to the question on the council and protecting the public interest, there is an impression that the profession is held back and that Dr. Neary was allowed to continue for too long. It is hard for me defend anything that happened in that regard but the structures of the Medical Council prevent it from taking information from doctors unless it is of a level of legal proof to support a prima facie case against a doctor. This discourages doctors from coming forward but our ethical guidelines make it quite explicit that if one is concerned about a colleague and feels patients are at risk, it is one’s ethical duty to come forward and if one does not, one will be answerable.

There is a significant problem in that the Medical Practitioners Act insists that in order for the council to act, it must be able to put together a prima facie case that a doctor is guilty of misconduct. This means we cannot intervene at the stage where someone comes forward to express concern. As Deputy McManus suggested, people are nervous about doing this because they are worried about the outcome and they may not want the doctor in question struck off. This includes patients, doctors and nurses. Under the current legislation, we cannot intervene if someone rings us to say he or she is worried about Dr. Hillery — I had better be careful here — and to ask whether we can look at what is going on.

Dr. Hillery is saying there could be a Dr. Neary type case in other hospitals but the Medical Council would be helpless in doing anything about it.

Dr. Hillery

That is the case and I am greatly concerned. I have been asked about this matter since the report was published. Judge Harding Clark says my predecessors and I have expressed our frustration at the straitjacket in which we are held in protecting the public interest. The training bodies have also expressed their frustration and stated change is required. As Deputy Twomey stated, we are still in that position.

We do not have national audit figures or comparisons across the system. We are reliant on brave individuals coming forward such as midwives or the women who had their wombs removed and who talked about their experiences. As members are aware, some of them are still suffering abuse in their locality as a result. Some say they have deliberately drawn attention to themselves for the wrong reasons. We have listened to the concerns expressed. A long inquiry took place, during which a great deal of evidence was heard. Senator Feeney was on the inquiry team when she was with the council. These were brave people who came forward to tell their painful stories. Unfortunately, the current system requires people to expose themselves to such abuse before we can intervene. This is not good enough and must change.

That is one of the things I find frightening.

Dr. Hillery

I apologise for interrupting but I am frightened on a daily basis by what people say to me. I tell them they need to put their complaints in writing and get more details. They say they cannot do this as they do not have enough information to put in writing. I am afraid things are going on about which we know nothing. Most doctors are keeping up to date and providing their patients with a good service. The number who are not is small but it is too many.

I am also aware that there are issues in the health service about which people know but have not told the council. For instance, on the 1 o'clock news a few weeks ago I heard of a doctor who had been suspended for two years and we had not been informed. There are issues in respect of the communications structure within the HSE that are separate from legislation but also of concern. Many areas of concern in protecting the public interest frustrate me and I would like to see them changed very quickly. I apologise for becoming heated on the matter.

Will Dr. Hillery answer the remaining questions?

Dr. Hillery

Deputy Twomey asked me a few questions. The resistance of doctors——

We will leave Deputy Twomey's questions to one side.

Dr. Hillery

Yes. I will go back to the others. I have answered in part the question of resources raised by Deputy Connolly. I know it sounds like a get-out clause but if one looks at the queues at outpatient departments and GP surgeries, unless cover is provided, it will not be possible to ask doctors to do what could be as much as two to three hours a week to provide confident assurance. I am lucky to have cover this morning to attend this meeting. If I did not have cover, patients' appointments would be deferred to another day. What we are asking doctors to do is be available for at least half a day every two weeks, if not more, to keep up to date and audit their practices.

Doctors will have to put patient issues to one side, unless resources are provided to provide them with cover and put more staff in the system. I do not refer to medical staff alone; we live in the world of multidisciplinary teams and there are many options in filling the gaps but they need to be addressed. That is what I mean by resources. It will be most helpful if we get new legislation but it will be a disaster if it places the onus on doctors to do things but does not allow them the time to do them. They will all be appearing before me to explain themselves.

I would like Dr. Hillery to expand further on the training provided in smaller hospitals.

Deputy Connolly has had a good run and other members wish to contribute. Some of them might have to leave to attend the Order of Business.

Dr. Hillery

From my perspective and that of the council, I am happy to meet individuals or groups at any time. That is also true of my colleagues. This can be arranged through the council.

I acknowledge the great effort put in by the Medical Council. I have to leave to attend the Order of Business but if Dr. Hillery replies to my questions, I will be able to read what he said in the Official Report. I would appreciate this very much. I apologise for having to leave.

Dr. Hillery

The Deputy also asked about the resistance of doctors to what we are doing. There is resistance among certain doctors who are very vocal in the media but I do not think they are representative. However, there is a fear in the profession that the council will be given new powers but that there will be no backup to allow doctors to fit in with them. Whether that is resistance or just anxiety, it will lead to resistance if it is not answered appropriately. In general, doctors who have trained in the modern era will not have any problem with the system we are outlining. Most of the doctors who have been trained abroad trained in systems where this is part of everyday life.

On the question of sub-specialists, I think Deputy McManus was referring to the non-consultant grade of doctor. I am not sure whether it is dear to Professor Fitzgerald's heart but it has been an issue of some contention. The council believes there are doctors who do not wish to be specialists who have finished their training and who should be allowed to continue in the system as they provide a good service. Currently, they are not accountable. They are included in the general register and they do not have to continue with their education or answer to anyone, unless they cause harm. We want this to change. They should be included in a part of the register that acknowledges that they are neither trainees nor specialists and that they must produce evidence every few years that they are doing such and such. This grade is part of Irish medical life but needs to be backed up by guarantees to ensure public safety. There were questions about audit, peer review, clinical governance and financing and Dr. Quigley will answer those. There were questions then about how medical education would work and Professor Fitzgerald will take those.

The debate on the lay majority runs the risk of becoming the main issue that is debated instead of patient safety. No one sitting in Rathmines when Dr. Neary was at work could not have acted any faster than the people who were there. The council got the story from a leak to The Irish Times, acted on it and became the complainant. The make up of the council in such cases does not matter if the systems are not in place to bring the information forward and to ensure high standards; it does not matter who is on the council. We can have a more in-depth discussion of that. Ms Topham can comment on the role of the lay person in council. Senator Feeney would also have views, having been in that position before.

Those struck off in other countries are of grave concern to us. If a doctor is already on our register and he is erased from the register in another country, we must have an inquiry into him with witnesses before we can remove him from the register no matter what he has done. That is a constitutional issue.

We have been to the High Court in several cases on this and we are not allowed to take transcript evidence. If the General Medical Council in England holds an inquiry, it is obvious that patients who have been through an adversarial inquiry in London where barristers robustly defend a doctor are hardly likely to want to go through the same experience in Dublin. We thought we would use transcripts from the inquiry but we have been told by the High Court that we cannot do that. If a doctor is on our register and paying his or her fees we cannot remove him or her without an inquiry with witnesses into what he or she did in the other jurisdiction or unless we are able to go after him or her for an infringement here.

Some of these doctors go around the country saying they are struck off in other countries and that Ireland is a much better place because they are not struck off here. That does not reassure me but, unfortunately, I have been told that there is no way round this constitutionally. Mr. Scanlan, the Secretary General, was quite shocked when I explained this to him. The Department, however, is looking at this area for the new medical practitioners Bill. I have even asked if there could be a position where we could put on someone's registration certificate that this doctor is registered in Ireland but has been removed from the register in another jurisdiction for the following reasons. I am waiting for legal advice on that. At least it would give some warning to patients because all doctors are supposed to display their registration and must give it when they are called for employment. That issue is of concern to us.

Are professionals working for long enough? Dr. Quigley can answer that more articulately than me. I think they are.

Dr. Colm Quigley

My task within the council is to help drive forward our competence assurance programme. Over the last six years, members of the medical profession, under the umbrella of an advisory group, together with patient representatives, consumer association representatives, employers and doctors' representative organisations have met and agreed a programme of rigorous enforceable competence assurance for the profession in Ireland. The main problem for us is that we have no legal backing at the moment, it is entirely voluntary but all sections of the profession have joined up with this.

Deputy McManus need not fear resistance. There are concerns because doctors in practice who want to get patients through their surgical lists or not to have patients waiting unnecessarily would be concerned that a minimum of three or more hours a week would increase waiting times and impact on patient care. We have a problem in that if we try to put time aside to maintain competence and ensure that the public can have trust in our capabilities, we may be doing a little less, as much as a 10% reduction in service. That is an important issue and is the underpinning concern. It is not resistance, it is a real issue.

The main thrust of the competence assurance — a regular, ongoing five year cycle — is agreed by everyone in the profession. We had two consensus meetings in March and one last week where everyone has signed up to this. The devil is in the detail. It will take time and it will take people. If audits are to be done properly, people must be freed up to do it. Someone must be paid to collect the data and others to analyse them. It will require extra people and extra doctor time in a system where we do not have enough GPs or hospital doctors and hospitals are under pressure. In this environment, people work together to ensure doctors keep up to date.

Most doctors are doing this. We want to ensure this is documented so that it is transparent and obvious to the public. That is the purpose of our systems. We know most doctors are performing fairly well so part of our system, our clinical quality assurance programme, is built around ensuring that good doctors become better doctors.

We need to focus on the 2% to 4%, using international figures, of doctors who are under-performing to a certain extent. We want those doctors to come forward and admit they have a problem with something and that they need retraining, asking how they can take time out, get retrained and get back into practice. There is an onus on our profession in our current ethical guide that if one has a concern about a colleague, one must do something about it: draw that colleague's attention to his deficit or, if it cannot be dealt with locally, the council is involved.

We want formal systems in place, with peer review and multi-source feedback for every doctor and practice. A doctor would submit himself to feedback information from colleagues, nursing staff and patients so that he is made aware of not just competence issues but behavioural problems that may impact on performance. This is simply implementing best practice internationally. Many Irish doctors are trained in America, Britain and Oceania and come back to Ireland familiar with this process and comfortable with it. We want to put that in place.

Our president's predecessor, Professor Gerry Bury, wrote to a previous Minister and begged him to give the council the powers to do this. We will look for the legislative support that will put in place not just the statutory basis but also the recognition that this activity requires support at all levels, funding and time in a system under pressure. That is what the legislators will need to consider carefully.

The process will reflect best practice internationally. All training bodies and all doctors' representative organisations are agreed this must take place. The issue is not one of doctors not doing what they should be doing. It is important that Deputy Connolly is made aware that doctors in this country work very long hours in primary care and in hospitals. At present doctors must take voluntary after hours, weekend competence assurances when they are free. If we want safe systems, however, we must make room for this during the working day. We do not expect pilots to fly beyond a certain hour or to fly planes full to capacity with people standing in the aisles and the doors open.

We must make clear that doctors are safe in Ireland because we will ask our colleagues to demonstrate that safety. We also want to make sure the systems doctors work in are safe. Doctors are concerned that when they sign up to this, as they have, they will be afforded the time and support to do the competence assurance properly and well. The profession does its best but we do not give doctors the time to deliver what is needed.

This process has come to the crunch in the past week. We have put our formal documents together and will submit them again to the Minister for Education and Science. We hope that, with the support of this committee and of the Department of Health and Children, which has been extremely supportive, we will give the legislation the teeth to make a doctor's continuation in practice depend on compliance. If one is to be on the medical register one must be obliged legally to continue in competence assurance, otherwise the system will fail.

For any GP or consultant to devote 10% of his or her time to competence assurance will involve a significant increase in the workload for other people, with associated costs. Does Dr. Quigley have any estimate of the cost?

Dr. Quigley

No. For the council to do this properly it must raise a further €5 million or €6 million. Dr. Sisson has tried to estimate those costs.

Is that the sum for the council to run it?

Dr. Quigley

Yes.

I am asking about the cost for the individual doctor who must devote 10% of his or her workload each week to competence assurance.

Dr. Quigley

Dr. Sisson has some of those figures.

Dr. Lynda Sisson

The estimates we made for running the competence assurance through the council were between €1 million and €2 million for the programme which nationally would amount to €30 million.

Dr. Hillery

We have talked about this being a partnership. There is a difference of opinion in the council and the profession as to how this should be paid for. I feel the profession cannot pay for it but must pay for a large part of it.

This is not all about money, it also involves time. Much of this fits in with the recommendations of reports, such as the Hanly report, that there be extra specialist staff in the system and fewer trainees. If there are more specialists in a hospital they can relieve each other to do this work, whereas it is difficult for those in sole practice or for two consultants in a hospital to take time off to do this work.

There are plans, separate to medical regulation, that would answer the needs here by using the structures properly to develop the health service. It is intensive.

We must be realistic.

Dr. Hillery

Yes we have to be realistic.

If the two or three members of a GP practice, working probably from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. most days in the week, must each take 10% of their time off they will need another GP to do that work. That raises the questions of whether there is another GP available, and how much that will cost. The sum of €30 million seems conservative.

Dr. Quigley

The people are not there to do the extra work.

That is what I thought.

Dr. Quigley

The people are not available to deliver the work the system needs now.If the State can put aside €30 million for safety systems and training for people's back protection it must do the same for all aspects of safe patient care. This is a safety issue and the State has a role in protecting patients. The president has outlined the fact that we regard it as a partnership. Society needs to be aware of the time professionals can provide for this and Oireachtas Members need to be aware that there are too few doctors in the country to do this.

Have the private hospitals been subject to the same scrutiny as the public ones?

Dr. Hillery

We do not have power to scrutinise any hospital at the moment. We can scrutinise only the doctors and training facilities in certain hospitals. Private hospitals do not tend to train people. There is training for temporary registration for doctors from outside the European Union who support our health services but no one has power to scrutinise them. The plans we have put forward are for all doctors, whether in private or public practice.

We have no legislative power to go into private hospitals and very little to go into public hospitals or GP practices unless we can prove that the individual staff members have cases to answer. The system is quite loose in that respect. We would like that to change both by increasing our powers and by giving a group such as Hickwell the appropriate powers.

I too welcome the members of the Medical Council. I am delighted to hear the debate on competence assurance because when I was on the council it was only starting. The president was very involved then. It has obviously come on in leaps and bounds but the word that impresses me today is "partnership". This must be a partnership between the Medical Council, the medical profession and the Department of Health and Children. When I was on the council some medical members feared that Department funding would diminish their power. Does that fear persist?

I agree with most of Deputy Twomey's comments, and acknowledge the great work done by the council, particularly in the Neary case. As I recall the story broke in December 1998 and by January 1999 there was a section 51 order and Dr. Neary was taken off the medical register. The council then gathered its prima facie evidence and held the inquiry.

I am glad to see that people have pointed out that the three obstetricians, the "three wise men" as they are now called, had nothing to do with the Medical Council. The supposed connection gave the council bad press, particularly after Judge Maureen Harding Clarke highlighted their role in the case.

There is an onus, however, on the council and the Minister to have better PR systems in place to advise the public on the council's role and to make it clear that it is there not to protect doctors but to protect the public interest. There must be a better way to inform the public and perhaps a friendlier way to respond to people when they complain. They should not feel that the matter is cloaked in secrecy and that they are on the wrong side. People do not have a clue what the council does. I have discussed this with many of its members before now.

The profession sees the Medical Council as the stick to beat the profession vis-à-vis fitness to practice but also as the recipient of a large retention fee. The members are not well-informed about what else goes on in council. The public is rightly critical of the long delays between the start and finish of an inquiry. I know there are many reasons for that but not everybody knows. Those are matters that need to be highlighted. In my time an inquiry team comprised four medics and one lay person.

The Neary case went on for three years. That was because all the doctors serving on the Medical Council also held full-time jobs. They sat on the council on a voluntary basis in the interest of medicine. I commend the delegation for that. Is the Medical Council in Ireland run like it is in other countries? Do those full-time doctors serving on the council take leave of absence from their jobs?

I spoke at a conference several weeks ago, which the president of the Medical Council also addressed. I had definite views on the partnership between the Oireachtas and the profession. The Oireachtas will give powers to the medical profession in the medical practitioners Bill. There is an onus on the Oireachtas and the Government to ensure everything is above board and transparent. In my speech at the conference, I spoke about a 50-50 arrangement between medical and lay persons. The council is made up of 25 members. Of the 25, there are only four lay members. In the five years I sat on it, one lay member was a GP so in effect it was three lay members. Some doctors on the council supported me — and raised it themselves — when I said we needed more lay people on the council. Would the delegation be happy with a 50-50 arrangement?

The Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 and the forthcoming pharmacy Bill will see a large majority of lay people coming on to the medical professional councils. This new trend of transparency has been recognised by the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children.

I was critical a few weeks ago when I spoke about comments made at the IMO conference in Killarney on public interest members who serve on the Medical Council. The new term for them is "non-medical members". I was annoyed because during my term on the council, those very members worked exceptionally hard and even went on to chair certain committees. They were never found wanting for playing their role on the council. On the other side, there was a small group of medical members who came with their own political and medical agenda. I felt very strongly about that group on the council and I know it continues. In the public's best interest, that should be flushed out. No one on the council should pursue their own agenda or the agenda of their union.

Could the Senator be brief because Senator Leyden would like to contribute?

Nobody else was brief. Everybody had their say. This is the first time members on this side have had a chance to ask any questions.

I acknowledge that the council has been proactive. I sit on the health committee, a very good arm of the council. It was established to address cases of doctors who were going a little off the main track but without resorting to the fitness to practice committee. It was not provided for in the Act but the council saw to its establishment. I take my hat off to the president because it was his idea to have such a committee. It works exceptionally well, made up voluntarily by members and several lay persons.

It was interesting to hear the president state that the ethical guide puts an onus on members of the profession to report colleagues about whom they may have concerns. The midnight oil was burnt on many occasions to finalise points like that in the guide. The guide is not set in stone but it is good to see these provisions included. There has been a sea change with a huge willingness on the side of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to address it. We may be reacting only now but the Michael Neary and other cases have opened the doors. There is no chance there will be regression. It has to be progress from this point.

Senator Feeney has tremendous knowledge because of her involvement on the medical council. I welcome the Medical Council to the committee. It is very good for the council to have exchanges with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children. During my term as Minister of State at the Department of Health in 1987, I had no involvement with the Medical Council. At the time, there were few complaints against the medical profession. People are now more conscious of these cases that have come to the fore. How many doctors and professionals are now under investigation? From my experience in public life, even when at the Department of Health, I received no complaints. Sometimes exceptionally hard cases reflect on the profession as a whole, such as what occurred with the clergy.

There is a positive side to the health service. I commend GPs with joint practices in rural areas and their professionalism. I wonder if the figure of 10% per week for retraining is excessive when compared to other professions such as teaching. What involvement has the medical council in the ongoing saga involving accident and emergency departments? In the past with the old system of GPs and doctors working for the health service, there were not as many referrals to hospitals as there are now. This is probably due to litigation. Also in the past, more patients were treated in their own homes. It is far safer to be treated there, particularly with the problem of infections in hospitals. Public representatives who are now on the new health forums should not be excluded from the Medical Council and neither should Oireachtas Members. I recall being asked to nominate a constituent for the Medical Council who was subsequently appointed.

Senator Leyden should stop digging. I welcome Dr. Hillery to the meeting. He stated it was important in terms of accountability that he attended the committee. For us to understand the role of the Medical Council, and its limitations, that is important. Since the council regulates the medical profession in Ireland, if something goes wrong, the finger is automatically pointed at the council because many people do not know the restrictions under which it operates. From that point of view the discussion this morning has been informative.

Dr. Quigley claims that most doctors are performing well and that 2% to 4% are under performing. Given the scarcity of resources, the current lack of statistics and ability to collate statistics, how can Dr. Quigley make that claim?

I know Dr. Hillery does not want to get into the "lay versus profession" debate. However, when the Neary report was published, many people felt Dr. Neary would perhaps have not been able to operate for so long if there were not almost an old boys' network protecting him for so many years. A proper perception of the Medical Council by the general public is important. In the end it is all about protecting patients, and perception is important in terms of public confidence. From the point of view of supporting the medical profession it is important there would be a 50-50 if not greater balance of lay people on the council — without casting any aspersions on the medical profession. Lay people would be very supportive in the council in such an environment, so the council, instead of being afraid of such a scenario, should embrace it. Incidentally I bow to the inside knowledge of my colleague, Senator Feeney. She has one up on us this morning.

I have a little halo today, though I do not often shine here.

Dr. Hillery

I will address some of the issues raised by Deputy Twomey and will ask Professor Fitzgerald to address some of the education issues he raised.

The secrecy of interactions, the council's powers, the time line and all those issues are greatly frustrating for us. Senator Feeney in particular will remember that we started on the council soon after Dr. Neary was removed from the register under our power to apply to the High Court to have someone removed who is an immediate risk to the public, until we can hold an inquiry. The President of the High Court at that time took the view that he would grant that type of resolution, but we could not tell anyone about it. The then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, said at the time in the Dáil that he did not know whether Dr. Neary was on the register. When we were asked by the Department, we were told we could not comment. That put us in a very invidious position which thankfully, we have now moved beyond. The President of the High Court now gives us permission to tell the HSE, the Department and any interested parties who might be pertinent.

Obviously, doctors' constitutional rights must be protected, which is the reason for the blanket ban on releasing names, but how can we protect the public if we cannot tell employers, for instance, that a doctor may be a risk to patients? Many parts of the Act can prevent us saying things. We cannot talk about a case until it is over and the doctor has been found against. If we find in favour of the doctor but are worried about the systems the doctor works in, we have to ask the doctor's permission before we can make any statements. In most cases the doctor's lawyers will advise the doctor to refuse that permission so we cannot comment on systems even though we might be very concerned about them. These are things which need to change greatly with the new Act.

With regard to what was said about the lay representation, I experienced grave disquiet. I am a member of the IMO. I was not at the meeting and was very put out by what was reported in the newspapers. The president of the IMO, who just then was going out of office as a member of the council, has assured me that in the media at the time he was praising the input of lay people to council. Unfortunately, the coverage was given to non-official members of the IMO who made negative statements. One of them was that the Minister would appoint his friends to the Medical Council. I have always said that I would not like to be a friend of the Minister if I were going to be appointed to the council. It is an honour, but it is very onerous and involves a great deal of work.

I have been unlucky enough to serve on two councils. In both cases, they had representatives of the public interest, and as Senator Feeney points out, one of them, Dr. Bulbulia, was a doctor on the last council. They gave great time and energy in the public interest. We need more lay people and have asked for an immediate 100% increase in that representation. Unfortunately we have been told that the Attorney General feels this would be a step too far, pending a new Act.

I will ask Ms Topham to recount some of the stresses currently on lay members in order to provide a service to the public by being on the council. The numbers of lay members should be up towards 50%, though there is a divergence of opinion in the profession on that issue. I am not in favour of a lay majority on the council but would favour lay majorities on certain committees and lay chairs of certain committees. Once again there is a divergence of opinion on that. We have agreed and announced that our performance committee, which will be the centrepiece of our competence assurance procedures, will be chaired by a non-council member who is not a doctor. Some of us feel the fitness to practise committee could perhaps be chaired by someone who is not a doctor, though not all agree. There are options.

What is important for many reasons is a professional majority on the council itself. One of the key reasons for me — though it seems a little nebulous, when one expresses it in public — is that medical interactions are by their nature very private, and cannot be studied directly. We rely on people in the front line watching what they do and what their colleagues do. That is what self-regulation is about if one looks at it in the most simple terms. If one changes the council to having a non-medical majority, one may change people's minds on their place in the profession, and that is a risk.

This issue should be talked out. We should look at evidence from around the world. I know of no medical council with a lay majority. I know of some extremes where there is one lay person, or no lay person, which is very unhealthy. In South Africa the balance is 50-50 and in North America it is usually about 40% lay members. Models differ around the world but there is no model where full-time councillors are paid. However, we are moving into an era where the pro bono work can go on, work such as is done by lay people and doctors. It is not about giving one’s time but about giving other people’s time. Employers of people like me, Professor Fitzgerald and Dr. Quigley are getting cover for our out-patients and our appointments are being deferred. That cannot go on. Employers of people like Ms Topham — who can speak very well for herself — are giving 32 to 40 days per year of their employees’ time. It is very difficult to ask people to do that and for the system to function. If it is to continue functioning in this way, we could end up with a situation whereby the only people we have on council are those who have nothing else to do with their time. Some people in that position can be very good and have a great deal to give, but it would not be healthy for the system if the only people who could sit on the regulatory body were retired people or those who are financially independent. I do not think they can represent the viewpoints or interests of the public, be they doctors or lay people.

With regard to the time line for inquiries, today we did not bring with us the chairman of the fitness to practise committee because we wanted to focus on competence assurance. It would be helpful if we had an opportunity to return and focus on fitness to practise and perhaps on the method by which we give ethical guidance to the profession. I would appreciate input from the committee on how that should develop. Simply put, the actions under section 51 are very rapid. That is where we feel there is a threat to patients. We go to the High Court, which will usually take our word on that. The inquiry requires that the doctor be fully represented and have his or her constitutional rights vindicated. It also requires that the patients be there, along with expert witnesses. Clearly that takes time. There is also the issue of having full-time paid people sitting on those inquiries. That is not necessarily healthy. It would speed things up, but would one get a proper approach in the way things move forward?

On the issue of the lay majority, I would like to see further discussion on why we want to move to a lay majority on council, and what the benefits and disadvantages would be. In reviewing how decisions have been reached in other jurisdictions, as regards other professions — there is no international model, and we would be the first country in the world to have a lay majority — I noted that bodies were put together with experts, who took submissions, and made recommendations. I wonder if a committee such as this would be in a position to do that job fairly rapidly and come up with some advice that might guide the legislation. That would be preferable to all the soundbites currently being issued to the media outside this room. I would be interested in members' opinions.

That is a very interesting point. Regarding the Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2002, what input has the Irish Medical Council had?

Dr. Hillery

We have had very positive interaction with the Tánaiste and her predecessor as Minister for Health and Children, as well as ongoing interaction between Mr. Lamont, his staff and departmental officials. We intend to deliver on our procedures and have made submissions prepared by the committees of the IMC on each area of our activity. The Department has received them very positively. We have had fairly good interaction, and we feel that it is listening to us. Our door is always open, and it seems that the same is true of the Department.

My only concern is regarding the ongoing pro bono issue. I do not think that regulation can survive if we rely on lay people to do it for nothing without their employers being given some sort of cover. At a meeting I gained the impression that legislators believe that pro bono is the way forward, but I do not think that is possible in the modern world. Otherwise, we have had very positive interaction. Perhaps the registrar might answer the question about how many inquiries are going on at the moment. They would be divided, since we receive many complaints that go to the fitness to practise committee. They are reviewed in depth and may not go any further, since we need a prima facie level of evidence. There are therefore two levels of activity. Perhaps the registrar might comment on that.

I was quite interested in Dr. Quigley's description of a Ryanair flight, standing in the aisles with the doors open.

The Deputy is down on them.

I say that with tongue firmly in cheek.

We appreciate that generally doctors do an excellent job. However, it is the nature of our job to address the issue of the one in 100 or 500 who does not. It may give the impression that we are on the attack, but that is what we are here for. Regarding the competence issue, which was addressed earlier, setting aside 10% of time would be a very high standard. A consultant's contract is 35 hours per week, and 10% of time, or three and a half hours, in competence assurance per week strikes me as rather high. With reference to the comments regarding those on medical boards, referring to anyone as non-anything, whether it be non-medical or non-nursing, suggests that they are immediately offside and their opinion unqualified. That is one of the dangers. I would refer to such members as public interest representatives or lay people.

Mr. John Lamont

There are approximately 14 cases going through an inquiry process at any one time. We hold between 25 and 30 such inquiries each year, so those 14 would be the build-up thereto. We also handle 12 or 14 judicial review cases in the High Court at any one time. They would relate to registration and other matters and not simply fitness to practise. Two cases are currently on their way to the High Court for appeals on fitness to practise matters.

Returning to the complaints issue, the IMC receives over 300 each year, approximately 10% of which end up as an inquiry. The reason that 90% do not is that the benchmark used is one of proof beyond reasonable doubt. There is no point in proceeding to an inquiry unless the prima facie evidence is substantial enough to satisfy that burden of proof. I accept that some complaints are not made with a view to having a doctor erased from the register. Nonetheless, the IMC treats every complaint that it receives, whether considered minor or major, in exactly the same fashion. I would also like to say that every time a complaint is received, the complainant receives a very detailed leaflet explaining exactly what the process is and that that is a relatively new measure. He or she knows within a few days what to expect from the process and where it will lead, and is contacted when a decision is made. The doctor also receives such a leaflet to explain the process when he or she gets the letter.

Dr. Hillery

Perhaps I might add that we are completing a research project in which we have had questionnaire interaction with members of the public and doctors who have been through our process. We will bring it to the council in June and plan to publish a document, which we will obviously also send to the committee, regarding the outcomes, how it will influence our planning for the future, and how it might feed into the Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2002.

I should have addressed the issue of appeals, since under the current system the final arbitrator is the High Court. If a doctor is found guilty of professional misconduct, he or she has a right of appeal to it, whereby the entire case is heard again. In the UK, I understand that the appeals process is about processes. The doctor can ask the House of Lords or the High Court whether he or she was heard fairly. In Ireland, the entire case is heard again, so it is quite a complicated approach.

Regarding Deputy Cooper-Flynn's question on the number of doctors underperforming, we have no way of knowing. We can extrapolate it from international figures, but we have no national ones. The competence assurance procedures will allow us to produce those, but our current figures are no reflection of the reality, since all that we see are those who satisfy us beyond a reasonable doubt that a court case would be justified. That is not sufficient.

Dr. Quigley said that perhaps 2% of doctors would not reach the requisite standard when it comes to competence assurance. They might not be participating in continuing medical education or continuing professional development. Does Dr. Hillery see any link between those who appear before fitness to practise committees and that group? Is there any way of knowing? Does that emerge during a case? I know from cases on which I sat that it was very clear whether those people were doing CME or CPD.

Dr. Hillery

Dr. Sisson has been examining the issue together with Dr. Quigley, and perhaps she might give a broad answer on it. I apologise to her for not warning her that she might be asked this, but she has been considering it.

Dr. Sisson

We looked at the cases that went to inquiry last year, of which there were 24. Of those, some 15 concerned competency issues. We would have had to know about those people before they came before the fitness to practise committee. Currently, we have no way of finding them. I would also like to make the point that many doctors are not on the register of medical specialists and are therefore not required to submit returns, which is also an issue for us.

Dr. Hillery

To finish that point, we have asked that the general register be dispensed with so that a patient will know that if someone is registered, it is for a certain purpose, as a trainee, a sub-specialist doctor, or a specialist. No longer will people be able to work as a locum or set up in practice with only general registration, since that is not a strong enough guarantee, and the Department has accepted that point. We hope to move to that situation.

I realise that we are all stuck for time, so perhaps I might ask Professor Fitzgerald to address some of the issues on medical education.

Perhaps I might interrupt very briefly to ask something that I had intended to ask previously. It concerns graduate entry and what we see coming on stream in September. I know that the IMC regulates it. Is there a cap on Irish graduates, and how are the fees to be set? Are there pros and cons, and how realistic is it regarding the manpower that we will need in coming years?

In the past, education was regarded by the IMC as an optional add-on to its core functions. However, it has been realised increasingly, particularly by the last council, that it is incredibly important. We are talking about doctors who will be in the system and seeing that they are safe and competent. It comes down to the quality of undergraduate education, the opportunities that they get, the numbers put through and the postgraduate system. If one reads the previous Act, one sees that the IMC has serious responsibilities in those areas. In recent years, that has become a very large proportion of its work. Supporting patients depends on having safe, competent, well-qualified, compassionate doctors who have good communication skills and have been trained in the appropriate environment, both as community GPs and in hospitals, reflecting modern practice.

I will quickly run through what the Fottrell and Buttimer reports mean, since they are very important policy documents, and we previously had none on medical education for decades. Fottrell has to do with undergraduate education and I shall be able to pick up a couple of the responses there. Essentially, Fottrell was in response to heavy pressure from the last Medical Council to look at the state of undergraduate medical education in Ireland, where there was glaring under-investment. It was such that at the time the Fottrell working group was set up, the State subsidy for a medical student of approximately €8,000 was one third or a quarter of that for a dental or veterinary student. That is the extraordinary background of under-investment.

The second finding was that comparative figures from other jurisdictions showed that in the University of Glasgow, or even in Northern Ireland, the corresponding rate of investment per undergraduate medical student was equivalent to €40,000. This pointed to the lack of doctors being produced by the medical schools. This was because of a policy decision made in the late 1970s, which drastically slashed the number of Irish undergraduate students going into Irish medical schools by 60%. A quota was set. In my medical school, for example, the first year I joined the staff the final graduating class had 165 Irish students in it. Within five years there were 106.

That is the past. We obviously must learn from that and move on. Fottrell reviewed the position very systematically, using international best practice and in consultation with all the constituencies and the public. The results indicated that we needed between 700 and 750 Irish-EU graduates to come out of our schools. They needed to have appropriate training with related investment and the old apprenticeship system that depended largely on voluntary activities was no longer sustainable for international benchmarking and accreditation. The Medical Council had pointed out all of those issues. As a result of that the Fottrell report set a time line and a road map for instituting these reforms. The Medical Council has just recently finished its third inspection in five years of all of the Irish medical schools, using international criteria for excellence and benchmarking the institutions against this.

That is the thrust of Fottrell. It is incredibly important, however, in just dealing with the undergraduate component of this that the implementation steps set out in the report are delivered on. There is supposed to be a steering committee between the Department of Health and Children, the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education and Science to oversee the broad strategy. Then there is to be a broadly representative national implementation group to deliver it, where the Medical Council, universities, medical schools and many more important constituencies will play a role. The national implementation group has not been set up and it is essential that the strategies there are not devised on an ad hoc basis. We need to produce this new cohort of 700 to 750 doctors per annum, which of course has to be done, incrementally.

With regard to graduate entry, the Fottrell committee indicated that there should be a mixed entry to medical school feeding from two pools, as it were. One is the traditional leaving certificate route, but with an aptitude test added on. In other words, if a student achieves the proposed 450 points, he or she then enters a second competition based on an aptitude test, which has yet to be identified. I understand a committee is looking at what the most appropriate aptitude test should be, at present. That is a stream from the undergraduates.

Then there is a graduate stream to take account of the fact that graduates or second chance people may bring a level of maturity, having sampled other careers, and that this would be another very important constituency. Fottrell also said students from disadvantaged backgrounds must be looked after, who would not normally be able to avail of the standard pathways and required affirmative action. That is Fottrell in a nutshell, but it is very important. I am very happy to be here in the Oireachtas to press home the point that this needs to be implemented in full if we are to deliver the extra doctors the health service badly needs. There are significant shortfalls in urban areas and in rural practices of which we are all aware.

I will run through Buttimer quickly, as a continuum wherein the Medical Council has an important role, that is, in postgraduate education. It is clear that we need to have a versatile array of health professionals, appropriately trained, "credentialled", whatever terminology is needed. A responsibility devolves statutorily on the Medical Council to see that this is delivered on. Usually it is done through the higher training bodies, but there is a responsibility and that is where Buttimer comes in. Buttimer says there has been very little investment systematically in postgraduate training. It is all a continuum from Fottrell onto Buttimer, and there must be investment in postgraduate training. The latter report states that the two major players in postgraduate education have to make a major contribution. One major player is the Health Service Executive, which is to set up a medical education and training facility that must show it is relatively independent and not just a section of human resources, which of course would compromise its independence and reputation. The other group is the Medical Council. It is very important that the Medical Council and HSE meet with all the other parties involved to help in structuring a credible postgraduate system that will produce the array of professions we need for the future. Those are some of the issues.

I have to say something about the foreign students. Sometimes they get a bad press and at times the medical schools are described as having "a neat little thing going" in this regard. When one looks at the figures, the cost is €8,000 per Irish student. The only reason those students got an education was that the medical schools were not allowed to take any more Irish students, had to be entrepreneurial and were encouraged to do so. Fortunately we have a very good reputation as regards international education and we were encouraged to make up the economic shortfall and add to Ireland's reputation as Ireland Education Inc. We have had outstanding students, but now Fottrell indicates exactly what the limits are. I believe we have sorted out this issue so that may still play an international role and deliver on responsibilities to produce sufficient doctors for the Irish health service. Perhaps I shall stop at that.

I thank Professor Fitzgerald. Before we wrap up, perhaps Ms Topham, as a lay member would like to say something to the committee.

Ms Margo Topham

I thank the Vice-Chairman and members of the committee. It is certainly a privilege to be here today. When I was appointed to the Medical Council, I was told it was a privilege and an honour. One thing is certain — it is not a hobby. There is an enormous amount of work involved, as a member of the Medical Council, whether one is a member of the medical profession or not, as in my own case. There is a substantial time involvement, spread right across the board. I do not want to give the impression that the work is largely being done by one group as against another. Rather it is a question of both the volume and the type of work involved. I am a health service worker, and serve on the Medical Council's fitness to practise committee, the general council and the education and training committee. I am one of only four lay members who undertake inquiries which are mandatory. I am a member of the monitoring committee. I have made medical school visits and hospital inspections with Professor Fitzgerald. At the last meeting of the fitness to practise committee, we had 1,700 pages of documentation. That is what goes on at the weekend.

I am tired already.

Ms Topham

We have a saying "heaven forbid you should have a life outside the Medical Council". However, I do not wish to trivialise the issue. Everyone works very hard, not just the four lay people on the council. Last year, I did 40 days for the council, but others would do much more. I only know I did 40 days because Dr. Hillery mentioned 32 days.

Ideally, the lay membership should be increased immediately. However, I understand that is not possible under the current Act. If it could be doubled, then that would be a great improvement as it would make the work less onerous on all of us. Inquiries can last up to six days and that is a lot of work. We have held inquiries outside Dublin to facilitate witnesses, while we used a video link-up for a recent inquiry involving a practitioner outside of the jurisdiction.

Partnership was mentioned previously. The Medical Council does not and cannot operate in a vacuum. If competence assurance is to work, huge resources will be involved. To promote a better system for patients and staff, the Medical Council must be supported by the HSE, by the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Finance. There are people who are self-employed, such as GPs, as well as people working in the hospital system. It is easy to assign X millions of euro to a hospital budget to support health and safety or competence assurance, but how do we fund an individual who works exclusively in the private sector but who only has admitting rights to a private hospital? How do we provide backup to a GP who is working on his own in rural Ireland? The distribution of resources will be significant.

If four medical consultants are required to give three hours per week to competence assurance, that makes 12 hours per week in total. The consultants' contract states 33 hours must be given, so this represents one third. That must be backfilled with pay. One option is to pay the consultant, but I feel the hospital should support the consultant in attending competence assurance. The four consultants might be trying to provide eight clinics per week and there will be significant waiting times for outpatients, so this will have to be backfilled with pay and manpower. The resources need to be quantified and this must be done in partnership. The Medical Council cannot work in a vacuum when it comes to patient safety and supporting doctors who are not in trouble and who seek further education. It is regrettable that we deal with the negative side of things when people run into trouble.

As a non-medical member of the council, I would like to state that the same amount of work is undertaken by everyone.

Absolutely.

If Ms Topham is doing 40 days per annum and she works for a hospital, the management of that hospital is happy to see her on the Medical Council. People who worked for the health board and were on the board always got time off. How could an ordinary lay person, working a regular job from Monday to Friday, give up 40 days per annum to serve on the Medical Council?

That is a very good point.

Does the council meet at weekends or during the week?

Ms Topham

I have to catch up with my own workload and I do not mean to be a martyr to the public health system. Yesterday I attended a meeting of the council, while today I am here. I have a meeting back in Cork this evening. It is up to me to catch up with my work at weekends.

Ms Topham's employer is flexible enough to enable her to do that. However, the vast majority of employers outside of the health service would not tolerate that. Therefore, all non-medical people are effectively excluded.

Ms Topham

I am very fortunate that I have the support of my employer to carry out my work on the Medical Council. The four lay members on the council consider ourselves very fortunate. However, it is difficult to do 40 days work along with another 250 days and have a life at the same time.

I thank the Medical Council delegation for coming in here. We have spoke about medical students, training for junior doctors and the continuing education of consultants and other doctors. We are trying to protect patients in a very non-adversarial way. We need to be realistic about what we need for the future. The council should prepare a critique for this committee on the issues just debated. What resources are needed? I do not think it is sustainable to have people like Ms Topham, or anyone else, working 40 days a year on the council and holding down another job. The medical practitioners Bill will not be enacted for another five to six months. Many of the changes need to be enforced sooner, such as competence assurance and clinical audit. However, I would like to read a critique on what can realistically be done.

I thank the Medical Council delegation for appearing here today. We are talking about patients and patient care. We are united on this issue, regardless of whether we are medical doctors. This is about standards, about ensuring that there is capacity in the system to meet the need, and ensuring that doctors and other medical staff receive ongoing training. We know that we need many more consultants and that we need to replace many GPs and that is a big challenge. If we do not produce new doctors, then we are really in trouble in the future.

The concerns of the Medical Council have been about legislation. The council has been patiently waiting for the medical practitioners Bill and HIQA. It seems that the HIQA legislation will not be before the Houses until next year and the medical practitioners Bill will also take some time. The debate will be a lengthy process, so this will not be the last time we meet.

Due to the structure of the HSE, accountability and normal access to information has been shrunk dramatically. It is impossible to get an answer to a parliamentary question within a reasonable time or to get an answer that makes any sense. Having the council here is an extremely important part of our work. This is democracy at its best because the Medical Council is often viewed as a closed organisation which protects doctors and is aloof from the public. However, the council has at least partially put to bed that perception, by taking the time to come before the joint committee and by the information which it provided. I greatly appreciate it.

First, on my own behalf and that of the joint committee, I thank the witnesses for a comprehensive presentation and for taking the time to come before us. As the proposed medical practitioners Bill is in gestation at present, it would be opportune for members to take up the suggestion that the Medical Council might write to the committee to outline its issues. The joint committee might then meet the council again within the next three to six months to discuss those issues, if that is acceptable.

Dr. Hillery

Yes.

All members recognise the great work done by the Medical Council. Ultimately, patients are the most important people in the health service and the council is certainly on their side.

At the next meeting, it might be helpful to focus, as Dr. Hillery has pointed out, on fitness to practise issues pertaining to ethics and similar matters.

In addition, some issues in respect of the forthcoming medical practitioners Bill, such as lay representation etc., must be teased out further

Yes. My point is that Dr. Hillery raised that issue.

The joint committee looks forward to hearing from the Medical Council and wants to meet it again in the next few months, if that is acceptable. I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

Dr. Hillery

I thank the Vice Chairman and members of the joint committee for listening to us today and for asking so many questions. We are available at any time to come before the joint committee and would appreciate a regular chance to so do. It has been too long since our last appearance and it should be a regular occurrence.

Absolutely.

Dr. Hillery

In between such regular meetings, if issues arise about which the joint committee would like me or a delegation to appear before it, we would be more than happy to so do. I thank the members.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8 June 2006.

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