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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2006

Universal Newborn Hearing Screening: Presentation.

I welcome the delegation to this meeting. Before we begin the presentation I wish to point out that five committee members are in Kilkenny for a meeting of the national consultative forum. It is unfortunate that such a timetable clash occurred. I welcome Mr. Bernard Daly, chairman of the National Association for Deaf People, Mr. Niall Keane, chief executive, and Mr. Brendan Lennon, regional manager. The delegation will make a presentation on the introduction of universal newborn hearing screening.

Before commencing with the presentation, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on the delegation to begin the presentation.

Mr. Bernard Daly

I thank the Chairman. I am the chairman of the National Association for Deaf People and the father of a profoundly deaf daughter. Mr. Niall Keane is the chief executive of the association and has held that position for the past 19 years. He has enormous experience of deaf issues. He was a member of the Health Service Executive working party which reported in December 2004 on the issue of universal newborn hearing screening. Mr. Brendan Lennon is the regional manager of the NAD for Dublin and the north east. He has been a community support worker for ten years in the deaf community. Mr. Keane will now make a submission on behalf of the association.

Mr. Niall Keane

Members have copies of my presentation. I will not read it verbatim but will follow its logic. We have included some background information to put our call for newborn screening into context. Even though newborn hearing screening is not a complex procedure, it is done in fewer than 40 centres and that number is being reduced under the new health plans.

At present, approximately 66,000 babies are born in Ireland each year. Approximately 85 of these will be deaf and a further 150 will have various levels of hearing loss. They will join an existing community of 5,000 deaf people and 100,000 hard of hearing people. We provide services to this community daily. The adult life experience of a deaf person, which has not only been researched and documented but also experienced by us on a daily basis, is one of low language acquisition levels, poor reading skills, high levels of illiteracy and reduced educational achievement. Research indicates an average reading age of nine years among deaf children with normal levels of intelligence. That obviously develops into poor levels of employment and long periods of unemployment. A deaf person will earn approximately 67% of the average industrial wage, usually because communication difficulties mean they never receive promotions beyond entry level. It is a matter, therefore, of under-employability.

Owing to the higher levels of mental health and anxiety disorders among deaf people, we also provide a mental health and deafness service. It is not widely known, although it is well documented, that deaf people suffer from poorer general health, principally because of the communications issues which arise between doctors and patients. When a patient visits a doctor, poor communication means that general issues are often not addressed. It is also the case that deaf people do not visit doctors as often as the general population. In summary, we are talking about a life of social exclusion and reduced chances.

We should be trying to prevent these problems from arising rather than constantly trying to fix them. In that regard, delays in diagnosis are a much more disabling factor than deafness itself. With early diagnosis, communication patterns can be developed between parents and children, hearing aids can be fitted and other early interventions can be made, all of which make for a better life outcome.

The problem as we see it is that in Ireland since the 1950s, hearing loss has been screened by means of a distraction test, in which a sound is made to make the child look at the tester. However, because children often fail to respond to the test for reasons such as inattentiveness or sleepiness, the Health Service Executive estimates that 50% of deaf children are missed. The test also results in the frequent referral of children with perfect hearing for audiological testing. One might as well flip a coin. While the test was of some use from the 1950s until the 1970s, modern technology allows for the fail-safe detection of hearing loss hours after birth. We should be testing at that stage rather than waiting for six-week or nine-month clinics. In the south east, there were no developmental clinics for a period of two years, with the result that an excessive number of referrals were made to the regional audiologist. Expensive audiological time is, therefore, being used to screen out those who do not have hearing problems rather than dealing with children who do.

The average age of hearing loss in Ireland has increased over the past 30 years from 13 months to between three and four years. That is partly due to a lack of organisation within the audiology service. Previously, a single national service was provided which worked very well, but the service has become fragmented. In 2005, the majority of children in north Dublin who were fitted with hearing aids for the first time were of school age, according to the HSE. In effect, we are wasting people's life chances. It has been our experience that parents suspect hearing loss from an early point in their child's life, yet they must wait up to four years before receiving confirmation. The child, therefore, fails to develop adequately. In other words, it is the delay, not the deafness, that disables.

The reason for that is because neuronal pathways, or the brain's pipework, are developed in the first year to 18 months of life. Once these pathways have developed, the neurolinguistic ones in particular, a person's capacities are defined for life. At birth, a child has almost 100% potential but by the time we start working on the neuronal pathways, they are already set or diminished to some degree, so we have to play catch up. The child's development is, therefore, wasted and his or her future chances are affected. We suggest screening for newborns principally because detection will be early enough to inform parents on how to improve the situation. Hearing aids or cochlear implants can be fitted as early as four months and parental anxiety would also be reduced by early detection.

With regard to the economic loss to the State, it is estimated in the UK that the lifetime cost of a deaf person is £1.2 million, while in the US the cost is estimated at more than $1 million. As someone with a background in health economics, I would not dispute those figures. The cost to the individual in terms of lost income or social opportunities is also high. Research in the US and the UK demonstrates that universal newborn hearing screening pays for itself in less than four years and thereafter saves money. Researchers have predicted on the basis of a 75-year average lifespan that savings of $7 billion could be made in the US. In Ireland, the HSE estimates that it would save the annual equivalent cost of 50 public health nurses, who could be gainfully employed in other areas. At present, 80% to 90% of audiologists' time is wasted on people incorrectly referred to them when they could be rehabilitating deaf children.

In 2004, the Programme of Action for Children published research on the introduction of universal neonatal screening which stated that the ensuing benefits for children with severe hearing loss made a compelling case for the introduction of a programme. It also argued that a programme should be introduced as a matter of urgency. Unfortunately, we have not yet experienced any such urgency. Universal newborn health screening also appears to cost much less than the distraction test.

There has been some discussion over whether one should target screening for high-risk children. That idea is being touted. All research, including Irish research, shows that targeted screening, which catches only 6% to 8% of babies at risk, will miss 40% to 50% of deafness cases. Therefore the cost of one deaf person missed more than covers the cost of doing this universally. The only way to do it is to include the whole population. With UNHS there is equipment with a little probe that one puts in the baby's ear. Within two to three seconds it sends a pulse down, checks whether the cochlear works and receives a pulse that gives a read out. The baby can only pass or fail and it takes only seconds. It is non-invasive, takes only one person and does not require a skilled audiologist, qualified nurse or an ear, nose and throat, ENT, person. It can be done at a much less costly level and could be done at maternity hospitals or, given the current discharge times, on quick follow up in the community. It can reduce the age of diagnosis to below three months and the age of fitting a hearing aid to four to six months. That is a significant improvement on the current situation. It is a low-cost, highly accurate and specific test and the beauty is that it is easy to implement and does not require much training.

It has been noticed that people who are screening need to be dedicated screeners, because they improve as they go along. Initially they will send approximately 4% more people for audiological diagnosis than are deaf. My colleague Mr. Brendan Lennon tells me that in Northern Ireland, where they have been doing this for several years, they are referring less than 1% more people than are deaf, which is much different from the 95% we have.

We are the laggards in Europe. Even the accession states have UNHS. Nigeria recently announced that it would introduce it. We have been working on this since 1992, when the equipment was not as good as it is now. Since 2001 we have failed to make any impression on the Department of Health and Children. We have had a little more success with getting the HSE to understand that this should happen. Everybody agrees it should happen but it does not appear to be anybody's job to push it along.

It will cost approximately €5 million per year to implement this with another €1 million to be invested in audiology and early intervention services. Within four years that cost is recouped and after that a saving is made. The €5 million it costs to implement is not an additional cost but a displacement of the existing wasteful costs and a step towards a more efficient system. The report on introducing neonatal screening sets out what the programme will require in terms of co-ordinators, screeners and administration and the protocols to be used. It sets out what should be done and how to do it, but has not committed any resources. Last October the HSE made a commitment to us that this would begin this year. I can understand that its structures do not allow it to introduce this. Rather than seeking the almost 60 posts mentioned in their budget, the HSE is seeking two and has, after a year and half, identified the funding for two posts. Unfortunately it cannot find, within its 100,000 staff, two posts it can sacrifice to this. This will not happen within the HSE.

We suggest, and we ask the committee to recommend, that a budgetary line be put under this, that it be set up and run as a project with deliverables, outcomes and supports and that it start this year. War-torn Croatia, which has a similar population size to Ireland, rolled out newborn screening in 12 months. We are still deliberating. We did not come this morning to make a case to the committee that screening is right. We came to seek a practical solution. How can we move to activity? Every politician in the House has supported this. Many have tried to get the Department of Health and Children to commit. Responsibility is floating between the Department and the HSE, and the HSE has not decided which section might take responsibility. I do not believe it can be delivered within the next five or six years just by hoping the HSE will find money in its budget and people in its staff. If it does, it will put in qualified staff, either audiologists, of which there is a shortage, or public health nurses. I suggest we operate a project with ring-fencing and clear operational time-lines, and get it moving. I hope this committee will support the case for UNHS and the practical solution to get it moving.

Mr. Brendan Lennon

I echo what Mr. Keane said about what feels like an impasse. Everybody seems to be in favour. Since 2005 we have spoken to many people, including the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, an adviser to the Taoiseach, an adviser to the Minister and a number of high-ranking people in the HSE. We received a commitment in late 2005 that implementation would begin in 2006. I will refer in more detail to the most recent contact we have had with the HSE via a county councillor in the Dublin and north east region, Mr. Joe Corr, through the Regional Health Forum. Mr. Corr put a number of questions on UNHS on our behalf to the Regional Health Forum. I would like to read the questions and the replies.

The first question was: "Does the HSE accept the recommendation of the UNHS working group report?" The answer was: "The response is currently being considered and we will revert to the forum in the coming weeks." The second question was: "If the HSE accepts the report, when does the HSE envisage that the recommendation would be completed and implemented?" The reply was: "The response is currently being considered and we will revert to the forum in the coming weeks." We asked: "Who is responsible within the HSE for progressing the implementation of UNHS?" The reply was: "The response is currently being considered and we will revert to the forum in the coming weeks." We also asked: "What steps have been taken by the HSE to progress the implementation?" and the answer was: "The response is currently being considered and we will revert to the forum in the coming weeks." Mr. Keane has alluded to the lack of confidence we have in the HSE's progressing this. Two years after the HSE has published its report, we cannot even find out who is responsible for bringing it forward. That is why we are here today.

Mr. Keane

All the work on the HSE's report was done in 2002 and early 2003, it was published in 2004 and was not circulated until late 2005. This is despite the fact that everybody admits it should be done. Meanwhile at least one to two deaf children are born every week, and face the same diminished life prospects and costs to the State and themselves. We are committed. It is not a difficult programme to run. There are fewer than 40 centres to operate. In our small organisation we have the management and organisational ability to deliver it. I cannot see why it cannot be delivered.

Mr. Daly

The reason the NAD is so focused on this issue is that from our knowledge of deafness we are conscious of the importance of the age at which a baby is diagnosed as deaf. Mr. Keane mentioned earlier that in the past 20 years that age has increased to five years. This is far too late. I am the father of a profoundly deaf child and I was fortunate that our doctor identified it after six weeks. This was 25 years ago. The age at which a child is diagnosed as deaf is crucial. Mr. Keane said that in the past 20 years the age at which diagnosis takes place has risen to approximately five, which is far too late. As the father of a profoundly deaf child, I was fortunate that, 25 years ago, our doctor made the diagnosis after six weeks, which was pure luck. A parent needs to know there is a problem so as to have time to face it and access all the support functions at a time when they are most effective. A very simple process would solve the problem, but it is not being implemented.

Before I invite questions from committee members, I wish to clarify one point. Mr. Keane made comparisons with Nigeria and Croatia, which sums it all up. He also said the structures do not allow screening to be implemented. Can he elaborate on that aspect?

Mr. Keane

That is the only conclusion that can be drawn, given that we tried particularly hard to convince the Department of Health and Children for a number of years. When the HSE came into being, the Department was pleased to tell us it was no longer its business. I do not want to be too punitive on the HSE because it is only settling in as an organisation. It has been told not only does the matter come under its remit, but it has to budget for it. However, there is no budget line. The issue is not sexy enough compared to accident and emergency or GP issues. It does not save money from an individual's budget so it will not become the No. 1 priority.

Structurally, there is not one health service but 32 health boards and I cannot see how screening could effectively operate in that context. I have huge confidence in the audiology service, about which there were no complaints to the National Association for Deaf People in the 11 years prior to 2000, except that at one stage its ear moulds malfunctioned, which it rectified. Since 2000, there has been a complaint every single week about its failure to do various things. We are now putting children on waiting lists, for the first time in Ireland since 1967, for hearing tests. In the north east the waiting time is four or five months and in the north west it can be up to a year. It could take a further year to fit a hearing aid. Even when a child of three or four is referred, he or she must suffer another year's wait. That comes about from the fragmentation of the service and the fact that people operate on a patch basis, where the patches are too small. One receives a super service in one area but nothing in the next patch.

In the west and the mid-west there was a superb audiological scientist who ran clinics in Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Letterkenny. When the chief executives of the health boards came to be rated on their waiting lists, the chief executive in Galway questioned why the board's audio scientist was operating in Limerick. As a consequence, the west received a superb service but an artificial waiting list developed elsewhere and children in Limerick received no service.

If 50 screening staff were attached to a number of hospitals to operate under the ENT hierarchy, it would be difficult to implement. If the process were carried out on the HSE's community patch basis, it would not happen either because the staff must move from patch to patch to cover where the births occur. I suggest a stand-alone system such as we in the NAD operate, in which between 75 and 78 people go where the trouble is located. We do not necessarily respect LHO boundaries but are supra-regional and that is what the service needs to be.

If the budget Mr. Keane mentioned was secured, would he want to recruit new people into the service or deploy existing HSE staff?

Mr. Keane

In an ideal world, existing HSE staff would be used. Clerical officers would seek such posts because they are very different from routine duties. However, we need to be quite specific. People who carry out screening need baby-handling skills and it should not be open to anybody. People need to opt in and to know what they are doing. They need to have or develop baby-handling skills because that is the most important aspect of it. I do not want to be facetious but a mother will not want her child of 60 hours or one day old to be dangled by one leg so a new pool of recruitment is required.

The delegation is pushing at an open door as far as we are concerned. I have not heard anyone say it is other than shameful that we have not introduced this test. I saw the test being carried out on my granddaughter in St. George's in Tooting, London, and it is very simple.

The only thing that will prompt action on this issue is the public, once it understands its importance. I have raised the matter in the Seanad and even did so yesterday during a debate on Ireland's second report to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. We do not recognise the rights of the child in such situations. I am on the board of the Rotunda Hospital and will try to give publicity to the issue by asking our patients if they realise it is not available. Only by making it an electoral issue will we prompt any action.

Having hearing problems myself, I assure the delegation I realise how disabling it is, and it is a particularly serious problem for children. I know of middle class children who would have had the best possible medical treatment but who were not diagnosed until they went to school. It is extraordinarily serious and it seems to be the only thing we can do. There seems to be no lack of recognition of the issue in the Department of Health and Children or the HSE. Much fuss is made about orthodontics, which are important for a child's appearance, but this is so important. Children are called "stupid" at school because they cannot hear.

That is all I can think of to do at the moment but I assure the delegation I will put it on the agenda for the next board meeting of the Rotunda Hospital and try to progress it from there.

I thank the delegation for its excellent presentation, the format of which I compliment it on. The information is accessible to us to refer to as we need.

It has been shown that screening at birth can save money by tackling the problem at the preventive end. The fact that the distraction test, with its 50% failure rate, is still being used is unspeakable when there is a fail-safe test. During the presentation it struck me that the tests would be relatively simple. I do not wish to demean the job that audiologists do but Mr. Keane indicated it was as simple as placing a piece of equipment in a baby's ear, with a diagnosis following in seconds. If the equipment is available but is not used, it is a tragedy.

Could maternity units or GPs be given some training in awareness of the test? Has the issue reached the frontline services? I am sure that, after detection, a patient would be referred to an audiologist. What difficulties does an audiologist have in recommending hearing aids and other devices when a problem is diagnosed? Is there still a waiting list?

Mr. Keane said two whole-time equivalents were needed, but that appears small. We should also take on board the fact that the €5 million required is not new money but a question of targeting money at the right point in the life cycle of the child. These are issues we, as a committee, should take to the Department. I propose we take on board NAD's report and strongly urge that its recommendations be considered. We would have to refer to those types of responses given to questions on where the service is. It is the type of response we have to put up with on a regular basis. One would feel that we should be here apologising on behalf of somebody else who is to give that answer. We feel very frustrated.

There has been mention of the HSE and what it does with reports in its fora. In the HSE north east, the delegation's area, reports relating to teamwork and Pat Joe Walsh were rejected. I brought that up with Professor Drumm, the chief executive of the HSE who almost dismissed the fact that the HSE had rejected the reports.

Even if the HSE accepts a report, it will receive the same level of dismissiveness. That is one of the tragedies within the health service. We are absolutely and completely famous for issuing reports, reviews and recommendations. The Programme of Action for Children published a report of the universal neonatal hearing screening working group. That report makes sense and there are supporting statistics. I wonder why people bother to carry out these studies. If there are studies, there should be an onus on the HSE to adopt the reports and back them up.

I will be asking questions and I hope this committee will make a recommendation to support the presentation of the National Association for Deaf People.

I apologise for being late and I must go into the Dáil shortly. I am very supportive of the work of the National Association for Deaf People. I note the report states that Ireland is unique in the EU with regard to this issue, even taking into account the accession states, where this is established already. That is stark.

With regard to what Mr. Lennon describes on responses from the HSE, we have walls wallpapered with this stuff. It is awful. It does not inspire confidence that action will be taken.

At a practical level, I am not entirely clear on how this can be provided. There was mention of a separate agency that would deliver the service. Could GPs not provide this type of screening? Will the delegation elaborate on that?

I have a further question. Is the machine expensive and is it difficult to operate?

Mr. Lennon

We did not get into the technical aspects of the protocols around the screening. If the committee members wish to hear about it, we can get into it. Best practice would be to have a three-stage screening. The machines are very simple and basic, as Mr. Keane stated. They are very simple to use. The first two tests are identical. They are an auto-acoustic emissions test, which involves putting a small probe in the baby's ear — Senator Henry alluded to that. A pass or refer response is gained within a couple of seconds.

When doing the first test, a refer response of 10% might result as the baby might be a few hours old and there may be fluid in the ear etc. That does not mean there is a hearing loss. It means a pass was not attained. A second test would be conducted a number of days later. The practicalities around this may be that the baby could be called back for a check-up, for example, and the second test can be conducted. For well babies, the result will be reduced to about 1%.

A further test can be conducted, entitled an automated auditory brain stem response test. In well babies, the result will then be brought down to 0.3%. In other words, three babies per 1,000 would be referred from the screening programme for diagnosis. The chances are that between one and three, or half of those children would actually have a hearing loss. It is very specific relative to the distraction test, which refers more than 95% false-positives. That deals with the technicalities.

The protocols for NICU babies, or babies admitted to an intensive care unit, are slightly different. However, the same technology is used. Units cost from €6,000 to €10,000, depending on whether the machine just does auto-acoustic emissions or both tests. The machines are expensive.

Dedicated screeners are used to do the job. In other words, it is their job to do the screening and nothing else. People such as GPs or public health nurses are not used. The reason behind this is if a critical mass of tests is not carried out by a person, the quality goes down.

We have carried out field visits and spoken to Professor Davis in Manchester, who heads up the UNHS programme over there. That team would have delivered the service across the whole of the UK. It is broken down into units of approximately 5,000 to 8,000 births. This is done as a team is required to work.

If there is a hospital with only 1,500 births, it is not economical to run a screening programme exclusively for that hospital. There must be seven-day cover. Although it is not required 24 hours a day for the seven days, it should be there for the seven days. This is because people come into the hospital, give birth and go home the next day. The screener must therefore be present on Saturday and Sunday.

In Belfast they do not work one day of the year, Christmas Day, but they work every other day of the year to carry out screening, usually in the mornings. The people doing the screening must do this job and nothing else, or else the quality will deteriorate. In the UK, public health nurses did it in some areas. It did not cost much more, but the quality was much lower.

We have looked at the various models. The UNHS working group report has done so, and a maternity-based model makes most sense in this country. There are costs associated with the technology etc., but the figures are there.

Mr. Keane

The saving will not be there if highly trained and highly skilled people are used to do this. To do the job may require less skill, but there is no such thing as an unskilled job. From that perspective we suggest, as Mr. Lennon has stated, that screeners are the way to go. That would allow the audiologist to do the audiological job, a highly specific task, and spend much time on it.

Deputy Connolly asked about the diagnosis and fitting and whether audiologists have sufficient facilities to do that. They do not. We are still providing analogue hearing aids to children in Ireland, a post-war technology. We all know how much technology has moved in five years, let alone ten years, but our hearing aids have not moved along in the past 40 years.

Digital hearing aids, if fitted at an early stage, would be the equivalent of revolutionising hearing loss treatment. What would be considered profoundly deaf today would no longer be considered profoundly deaf with a digital hearing aid. There are many areas in which we are playing catch-up.

We deal with many people in the HSE on a daily basis. I have every faith in them and we have a very good working relationship. Structurally, it is not set up to do something like this, which demands a completely different approach. As Einstein said, if the same numbers are added up, no matter how they are put on the page the same answer will always result. That is the current situation.

I apologise for being late, I had to attend another meeting. I am sorry I missed the presentation but I have been reading through it. I am glad to hear Mr. Keane state that he works very well with the HSE and has every confidence in it. Normally people sitting where the delegation is complain about the HSE. It is good to hear people praise it.

I wish to consider the figure of €5 million annually with an additional €1 million. Is that a once-off cost to get the initiative set up? Approximately 62,000 babies are born in Ireland every year. I am glad to hear the delegation state it would approach this matter from a maternity point of view, that it would be done like the prick in the heel test and that it would be done in the maternity hospital.

Is it envisaged that people already in the HSE will be trained in this? As the HSE was being discussed I recalled how it was introduced with a big fanfare, how it would save money, retrain staff and give us a much better structure than the old health board systems had provided. Is it envisaged that administration staff will be trained to become screeners? Is this what we are talking about? Will this involve redirection of money that is already available?

Mr. Keane

I would like to think that this would be the case but, unfortunately, I do not think it will be. People with baby handling skills are required and shoe horning a person with clerical experience into the position may not result in the right person doing the job. There is an option to recruit solely from within the Health Service Executive.

The HSE has spent a year and a half looking for the money for two posts so that this can begin. There must be a better way to do this; perhaps outside the HSE.

The €5 million would be a constant cost, while the €1 million audiological cost would diminish over three or four years. The €5 million will displace other costs. The HSE has estimated that it will save the equivalent of fifty full-time public health nurses.

How many screeners will there be nationally? Will they be based in what we knew as the old health board areas given how the HSE is set up? If so, where is the breakdown?

Mr. Keane suggests not everyone is equipped to handle a baby sensitively. As a young mother of 23 years of age I did not know how to hold a baby. The only thing I ever held that was in any way like a baby was a doll. However, it comes instinctively to most people so I would not put this forward as a potential problem. Everyone knows how to hold a baby. How many screeners are we referring to nationally?

Mr. Keane

We are talking about 50 screeners nationally, which is a substantial number. They would be based in maternity hospitals and would need to receive training. The HSE already set out in a report some years ago how the programme could operate. I suggested it might operate outside the HSE because it has failed to operate thus far. There is a formula and no extra work needs to be done in that regard.

Is the HSE coming up with the resources?

Mr. Keane

It is not coming up with the resources. Senator Feeney mentioned HSE patches. One may find that in one maternity unit there is not a viable number of births to justify a screener operating solely at that location. It may be necessary to use the screener in two patches which may cross over a tightly policed local health office, LHO, boundary. It is necessary to move away from this mentality if things are to be done properly.

The screeners suggested would be in whole-time positions. It would be better to have people working half-time because mornings are less busy than afternoons in maternity hospitals.

The witnesses have made a strong case to us. The impression I get is that we are very far behind and need to catch up. Members will be aware of the case that has been made.

Regarding the new procedures that have not been implemented, I am aware that the HSE mentioned that lower staff levels could be a possibility. The witnesses are here to back their report and that has been dealt with by the members. The second issue relates to this committee feeding into the Minister for Health and Children's decisions by way of the estimates campaign and the subsequent budget.

The money involved is not colossal. Most presentations before this committee involve huge budget implications and that is not so in this case. Success rates have already been determined in other jurisdictions and are beyond doubt. When we hear of the waiting period and the huge cost — which I doubt stops at €1 million — for the child or adult in subsequent years I feel we have no choice but to back the report and demand action from the HSE.

We should not seek new money; this should be within the HSE's existing budget. If the HSE is contemplating moving staff to other areas, clearly the area mentioned is an obvious destination. It is impossible to believe that this has gone on for three years. I would have considered it mere pub talk were it not coming from the experts before us today. I take the point made by Mr. Lennon, in response to the council, that it is nonsense to suggest scientific evidence is there to back this up yet the Department of Health and Children and the HSE cannot find the expertise to deal with it. It is incredible to think two positions cannot be filled.

This is not a committee that engages in meaningless back slapping. We take on few cases each year, but this is one of them. It is important that we make the submission to the Minister, following on from what the witnesses said today, and ask some questions. Who takes responsibility for the screening process, the HSE or the Department? If it is the HSE then there is money there to deal with the issue. Will recruitment come from within the HSE or from outside?

These are simple questions and I do not believe there should be long winded statements of pretence. The issue should be addressed and a timeframe provided. I suggest, on behalf of the committee, that we put the case to the Department and ask their officials, along with those of the HSE, that this be part of our agenda for the next meeting with the Minister and the HSE. Would the witnesses be satisfied with that response?

Mr. Keane

I thank the Chairman. We would certainly be satisfied with that.

If our stock of children were cars or computers the Comptroller and Auditor General would insist they be properly maintained and their working lives and potential improved and prolonged. Yet we are wasting our stock of children.

If this was an experimental process I could understand the HSE and the Department being hesitant, but this has all been tried and tested in other jurisdictions. The example was given of Belfast in the Northern Ireland jurisdiction, yet we cannot, even at this stage, respond to a query on who takes responsibility. I do not seek to criticise the HSE; I fully supported the creation of the HSE. Like all members here, I merely wonder how long it will be before this service begins. It is nonsense that we have had to wait so long.

Approximately four years ago, my first daughter was screened as part of a pilot scheme on hearing in Mayo General Hospital. Last year I had a baby and this service was no longer there. Were the results of this scheme collated and is this the research upon which this is based or is it international best practice? This may have been explained in my absence. Why was the pilot scheme stopped if it was successful?

Mr. Keane

The scheme began in the first place because a dynamic ear, nose and throat, ENT, surgeon felt the neonatal nurses had some spare capacity. He initiated the system and some very good pilot work was done. At first they tested at-risk children before moving on to all children.

The scheme was stopped because no funding was received to continue it and offer it to everyone. I am sorry Senator Henry has gone because there was also a pilot scheme in Tralee. Mr. Lennon, my colleague, has worked on organising a pilot scheme in the Rotunda Hospital. The problem is the pilot schemes have all proved so successful that we do not need to pilot it anymore.

I have been told that the HSE does not have provision for this in its budget because it is new. We have been told we cannot simply land this scheme and carve it out of existing funds. This is why we requested that money be ring fenced. If one's baby has hearing problems one does not wish to learn this after five years. We find parents coming to us in tears because of the hearing problems facing their four, five and six year old children. This is mostly due to the missed opportunity relating to what they could have done had they known.

Mr. Daly

I would like to sum up by making a net point. We see this as a failure of process. The focus must be on this. There is no debate about the merits of this. The costs are relatively insubstantial.

We will run with the case as best we can. The three points we will seek to reflect are that it is low cost, highly accurate and requires little training. Having heard what the delegation has said, if the committee cannot deliver, then it is not effective. We intend to make a submission. We will inform the Minister, Deputy Harney, and Professor Drumm of this morning's proceedings and ask that the matter be placed on the agenda for the next meeting with them. We will promote the adoption of this measure by the HSE. We have often heard about the savings enjoyed through the reduction of staff numbers. The idea will be to relocate staff to this sector. We promise the delegation our support and will try to deliver for it.

Mr. Daly

When is the committee's next meeting with Professor Drumm and the Minister?

In January. In the meantime we will work on the submissions to the Minister and the HSE.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26 October 2006.
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