Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN (Sub-Committee on the High Level of Suicide in Ireland) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 2009

Report on Suicide: Discussion.

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to present my document on what we can do about suicide in the new Ireland. I drew up the document as a result of people throughout the country, particularly councillors, telling me that they considered the incidence of suicide had reached epidemic proportions. People were coming to them, as elected representatives, to see how they could help. I spent a year studying the issue, starting from scratch as a layperson. I felt a responsibility as an elected representative to try to bring the issue onto the radar in Leinster House and among the wider public. I thank Deputy Neville for all the work he has done single-handedly in the past 20 years and his help in supporting me personally on this issue.

The three evidence-based research findings indicate that the following approaches are effective in preventing suicide: first, reducing alcohol consumption; second, the training of GPs in identifying depression; and, third, restricting access to lethal means. I will deal with these three issues in greater depth.

I am on a mission with regard to the whole issue of alcohol consumption. I am like a zealot and have spoken to different groups. We are too complacent about the consumption of alcohol which is a drug. We get very excited about taking heroin, cocaine and other drugs but when people take a drink, they are drugging themselves. While I am not anti-alcohol in that sense, it is a drug that is acceptable in society. If people were taking cocaine or cannabis in the liberal way they take drink, there would be an outcry.

We should phase out alcohol sponsorship of sports and other public events such as music concerts for young people. There is a conflict of interest. Sport is good for us mentally and physically but the sponsorship of major sports events by alcohol companies is in our faces. Every time I see it, I think it is pathetic. Such sponsorship should be phased out over five years.

The advertising of alcohol should be gradually reduced to a figure of 10% in the next five years. Drinking is presented to us in cinemas and advertisements as a very glamorous and sexy thing to do. It is suggested everything will be hunky-dory and that one will have no problems in life if one participates and joins the alcohol brand, whatever that is.

My second point in seeking an effective remedy for preventing suicide concerns the training of GPs. In carrying out my research and talking to families and the parents of children who had died by suicide, many told me they had brought their children to the doctor to be told there was nothing wrong with them, that they should pull themselves together and that they would be all right. We hear constantly that people are told by doctors that they will be all right. I suggest it should be very much a part of GP training that doctors should learn how to identify potential cases of suicide and self-harm and know the best methods of treatment, whether it be medication, cognitive therapy or otherwise.

There was 100% support at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting for my motion to reduce the size of paracetamol packets. One can buy two packets of paracetamol in a supermarket, despite the strict legislation in place. Two packets of paracetamol — 24 tablets — will destroy a person's liver forever. If one were to take three packets, one would be dead. There is very little awareness that on supermarket shelves and in many garages and shops such lethal weapons are available that can destroy one's liver and cause death very easily.

While I will not discuss the full series of 31 recommendations I have made, I will pick out the key ones. On cases of self-harm, Dr. Ella Arensman has an iconic graph which she calls an iceberg, most of which is underwater, which is where the hidden number of self-harm events are happening. She states approximately 60,000 people in Ireland self-harm every year. Self-harm, particularly repeated self-harm, is an indication a person could be suicidal.

I am coming from the perspective that we should put the issues of self-harm, mental illness and suicide on the radar. While we have made a lot of progress, there is still huge stigma in this regard. If a Deputy knocks on the door of a house when canvassing during an election, nobody will say they want help for a child, husband or wife who is mentally ill because there is a stigma attached to the illness. I believe that in 20 years there will no longer be that stigma; that people will look back and say it was savage. That is the way society has developed. There were savage behaviours at different times in society but society became more understanding and educated on various issues and over time they were accepted. I suggest we need to get to a position where people who suffer from depression, have suicidal tendencies or self-harm can rehabilitate themselves with proper treatment, medication and help and that they should be able to play a full part in society and develop their potential to the full. They cannot hide in the closet and should not feel ashamed to tell anybody they received help because they were feeling depressed or self-harmed.

One of the most serious problems is the lack of a service out-of-hours after 5 p.m. and on Saturdays and Sundays. People can go to their GP during the day but GPs generally operate from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. The HSE helpline service is not available after 5.30 p.m. The only service available is operated by the Samaritans which provide a 24-hour helpline service. The organisation does outstanding work. Its representatives will tell us that in their work they have prevented people from dying by suicide. They listen to and help the people concerned. Particularly given the economic recession, with people losing their jobs and thinking that they may lose them and with banks trying to put the screws on people over the amount of money they owe, there are many who will become depressed, despite previously never having suffered from a mental illness. We need to let them know they are not alone. The Samaritans freefone number is 1850 609090, while the number of the Aware helpline for those who are feeling depressed is 1890 303302.

My document refers to the unemployed. In a recesssion persons who are unemployed will be more prone to suffer from a mental illness and, possibly, commit suicide. It is important that help should be available, not only emotional help from the Samaritans, but financial help such as is offered by the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, an outstanding organisation where people can go and talk out their financial problems. People are running into financial problems but they are not alone. Help is available and they should seek it out and not be afraid to do so. There are the credit unions and for those in a very serious financial situation there is the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which is discreetly active all the time in our communities. There is help.

Concerning the economic recession, it has been proven internationally that because of it, people will suffer from mental illness who never did so before and people will be suicidal never having been so before. There is pressure on even the strongest marriage when people who have not been used to being unemployed have their job status taken from them. They cannot bear to think they are no longer very important people earning a great deal of money and their self esteem drops.

Another important issue concerns older people and those who live alone. President McAleese recently launched an initiative by the GAA. Many people, particularly older men living in rural areas who would have spent years going to GAA matches, get to a certain age when they cease to go out. They stay at home and become lonely. This recent initiative themes GAA events around older people and men living on their own, encouraging them to get out of the house. When I talk publicly about suicide I tell people that going out to meet people is healthy, whereas becoming a recluse leads to depression, mental illness and, ultimately, to physical sickness.

I will speak about the document which came out about a month ago, supporting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. Ms Sandra Gowran is in the public gallery today. This is an outstanding and timely document. In my research I came across evidence that families with young people and teenagers who are ambiguous about their sexual——

For the Senator's information, before she was in a position to attend, the committee, in private session, decided to respond to Deputy Charlie O'Connor's request to have that report by the gay, lesbian and bisexual group discussed.

Very good. I think it is important.

We may arrange that today because we want to have a special session on that issue.

It is very important. Any type of bullying or attempt to make somebody feel isolated and not part of the crowd can have a detrimental effect on the self esteem of that person. He or she feels negative. We have come a long way——

The committee accepts that fully and that is why the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network, GLEN, will be invited to address it.

I brought the document to refer to it. We have come a long way but Government bodies, the HSE, schools and the community have a responsibility to encourage tolerance of a person who is different from the group. In the background surveys carried out for this report, 81% of those surveyed had no mental problems concerning their sexual status but a small minority were suicidal or suffered from depression because of it. It is imperative for all of us to be tolerant towards those who are different. That should be across community.

I dealt with the issue of older people. We pushed the necessity of having a full complement of 11 suicide prevention officers in place with the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. Thank God that is happening. The last person will be in place in about two or three weeks, in the Louth-Meath-Cavan area. It is unforgivable that these positions have not been kept filled all the time. It is appalling that the HSE dragged this issue out. Suicide prevention officers and health promotion officers do tremendous work in the community. I had discussions with Ms Brenda Crowley, the mental health promotion officer for the south west. She sent an information pack to all Deputies and Senators in that area, providing leaflets and pamphlets to encourage them to talk about this.

Local elected representatives do not get enough recognition for the help they give to people in their communities. People do not go to confession any more and have nobody with whom they can talk. County councillors report that people thank them merely for listening. They feel they can trust them. Ms Crowley's initiative, as a mental health and suicide prevention officer, is to be commended.

It is imperative that Dr. Doorley, national director of population health in the HSE, should act now that the final suicide prevention officer will be in place in a couple of weeks. Dr. Doorley was a witness before the committee although it was not the best of meetings. Coming into politics with a business background as I did, I find such delay unforgivable. It is unforgivable there is no 24-hour service. Service after 5.00 p.m. and on Saturday and Sunday does not exist. This service should be privatised and it would be in action in three months. Most suicides and self-harm happens on Sundays and Mondays as a result of people going out drinking and the fact that there is no service when it is needed. We have had expert witnesses before the committee, including Dr. Barry, who say that many young people who go out at weekends do not intend to commit suicide, but because of the attitude to alcohol and binge drinking and the non-availability of general practitioners or access to any help, they end up dying from suicide.

In this committee we have said many times that we should be much more proactive on an all-island basis. A chapter in my document states that in the four years, 2003-06, there were 2,800 deaths from suicide on the island of Ireland. Tragically, there was terrorism again at the weekend and the day before yesterday. However, we have this figure of 2,800 suicides on this island. There should be a revolution. We do not say we can stop all suicides. Suicide has been there since the beginning of time and will always occur, but my bottom line, as a lay person and a politician, is that people should be able to get access to those who can help them. There are months of delay in some hospitals, even in the private sector, before a person can get help. It seems that the quickest way for a person to get help is to put him or her in hospital.

The bottom line is that in the four years from 2003 to 2006, some 2,800 people died here from suicide. More people die from suicide than from road accidents, but significantly more money — €46 million — is spent on road safety. We should find out from the Minister the precise allocation of moneys for the prevention of suicide and self-harm.

I wish to address the last point. It is difficult to pin down the amount of money going into suicide prevention, but yesterday I tried to do that. We know the budget of the National Office for Suicide Prevention has been cut by 12.5%. The contribution to the voluntary organisations involved in suicide prevention and bereavement has also been cut by 12.5%. We will endeavour to get further clarification at our meetings with the Minister, Deputy Harney, and Professor Drumm towards the end of the month. I will also send the Senator, by e-mail, a copy of the transcript of two interventions I made yesterday, one to the Minister and the other on the Adjournment. If Senator White can get a more comprehensive view of what is happening, she is a better person than I am.

Every time we raise the issue at this committee we are given fudged replies and are told that significant sums are being spent all over the place that we have not taken into account. We need to know precisely how much is being spent on mental health.

I fully agree. I thank Senator White for her presentation and will make a few comments. This committee recognised the position with regard to alcohol and is currently evaluating the report on that. Perhaps the Senator will comment on some aspects of this. We know alcohol has a strong role with regard to suicide, particularly among young people and those with a level of suicide ideation. Perhaps they are not on the point of taking their lives, but their inhibitions are reduced following the consumption of large quantities of alcohol. We are also aware that people with mild depression who binge drink or take alcohol in large quantities can be very vulnerable, particularly within an eight to 12 hour period after drinking. This is a dangerous time.

The Senator said 11,000 people attended accident and emergency units following self-harm.

I mentioned there are 11,000 presentations to accident and emergency units and this comprises approximately 8,500 individuals. There are also people who never go near a doctor.

They are conservative figures because even some of those who attend doctors are not included in the statistics. The figures only include those who attend accident and emergency units and not those who attend general practitioners. It is conservatively estimated that up to 70,000 people attempt suicide and self harm. These figures are based on the research of both international and local experts given to the committee earlier in our hearings.

If we could gradually reduce mental illness over a 20-year period, we would expect a significant improvement in attitudes towards mental illness. We need to realise that people with mental illness have as little control over their illness as people suffering from cancer, heart conditions, diabetes or the common cold. We have no control over what conditions we contract. Mental illness is in that category and the sooner society accepts that the better. The challenge for this committee and all interested in its work is to persuade the political system that is the case. We must continue to work on that challenge.

I fully agree with what Senator White said about mental illness during times of depression. Emile Durkheim conducted research on this in the 1890s. His research showed that in times of depression there is an increase in the number of suicides and depression. There was spectacular evidence of this at the time of the crash in 1929. There was evidence of a similar effect in the 1980s. Research has shown, from New Zealand in particular, there has been an increase in suicides during times of depression, particularly among young and middle-aged recently unemployed. These are under extreme pressure which can lead to depression and if they have any tendency towards self-harm or suicide, they are a high risk group. Financial difficulties, the loss of a family home in particular, or the threat of these can put severe pressure on vulnerable people. Many of these might never have considered suicide, but their new circumstances bring them into that vulnerable area. Our political system should be conscious of this.

The Department of Social and Family Affairs has recognised the problem unemployment can cause in family relationships and the difficulties that may arise in marriages and with children as a result of unemployment and recession. The Minister has allocated €11 million to voluntary organisations and others to deal with this situation. A similar amount should be allocated to dealing with the psychological, emotional and psychiatric effects of the recession. This would involve suicide and suicide ideation.

The alcohol industry is involved in promoting responsible drinking through the organisation MEAS. Does the committee feel the industry should be involved in drawing up a national strategy or should we have an independent strategy? The national task force on alcohol reported in 1992 and 1994 and its recommendations are available. Perhaps the committee should comment on the rate at which the recommendations are being implemented. The industry has also proposed a voluntary code for advertising.

I will take another comment on alcohol from everybody and perhaps we could also take a quick look at the implementation of A Vision for Change, the report on mental health services. I do not want to repeat what the Senator said, but she outlined the fact we do not have 24-hour crisis intervention for people within our accident and emergency units. In some areas there is no intervention at all, even during normal working time. We have been informed this is being rolled out, but the most difficult times are often late at night or weekends when crisis intervention is not available. Perhaps Senator White will respond to these comments.

I thank Senator White for her presentation. Her comprehensive document covers all of the issues mentioned by the Chair. I regret that during our unprecedented boom we still had a very high number of suicides each year. We now have research-supported evidence that suicide and depression increase during times of recession. We should be seen to implement some or all of the recommendations made as quickly as possible. It seems pointless to have a sub-committee such as this examining this serious issues where the number of suicides has reached epidemic proportions if we do not implement some of the proposals and recommendations made in A Vision for Change or take cognisance of all the variables lumped together with suicidal tendencies or ideation.

I will digress briefly. I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, when he was Chairman of the Joint Committee on Health and Children about the sale of lands such as those in my locality of Clonmel where the psychiatric services possessed a large area of land. I asked if the proceeds of the sale of that land would be reinvested in mental health services. An undertaking was given at the time that this would happen.

Everyone agrees that the recommendations made in A Vision for Change, the further research undertaken by and the recommendations of committees such as this should have a positive outcome, otherwise this is just another talking shop or a sub-committee of a talking shop. I apologise if I seem cynical and innocent because I do not mean to demean any of the hard work done by long-standing committees which was done before I came here and will continue after I am gone. Even during the boom services were still grossly under-resourced. I do not understand the reason for this, particularly when there are Members of the calibre of the Chairman, and Senator Mary White on the Government side of the House. Senator White is doing an excellent job in raising awareness of the awfulness of this subject. I probably should not mention names because there is a tendency to leave out very important persons and contributors. The Senator is almost as well known for her profiling of the problem presented by suicide and its implications, as is the Chairman and I do not mean to be patronising in saying this. However — if I can be pardoned for saying this — it is depressing that we are discussing the issue with the economy in a nose-dive and the expected curtailment of services. On the Adjournment last night the Minister could not give a straight answer or gave conflicting reports. While there seemed to be an increase in moneys, there was also a reduction of 12.5%, which I do not understand.

I am sorry I have not made an impression on Senator Prendergast who did not mention my name. However, she has made some very valid points. The sub-committee should not be afraid to grasp the nettle when it comes to making recommendations. We should not spare anyone because this is such an important issue.

Senator Prendergast spoke about competing interests. When I was in the Oireachtas Library this afternoon, I noted that the Evening Herald made the point that in good times everybody competed for a slice of the cake. In difficult and recessionary times the sub-committee has a role to play within the system to put suicide on the agenda. When people talk about health matters, they do not talk about suicide. However, everybody has a view on how money should be spent.

I refer to the excellent presentation made by Senator Mary White. She referred to the adoption of an all-Ireland approach. I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Body. Unfortunately, this is a different week in the North and we all condemn what happened. However, all politicians made the point at the meeting that it was good we had moved on from issues which had been dominating meetings for many years. It is now a question of talking about more positive aspects. An all-Ireland approach to health issues, including suicide prevention, should not be ignored. We must recognise the potential to pursue this issue on an all-Ireland basis and I intend to do so at the next meeting of the British-Irish Parliamentary Body.

The attendance of the delegate from GLEN reminds us that there should be an integrated approach to this issue. I met representatives of the Pavee Point Travellers group yesterday. There is an acceptance that there are groups in society with particular needs. We should not be afraid to say this. I was pleased to hear the presentation by GLEN because it has particular concerns and it is good that the relevant committee should listen to them. I refer to a youth suicide project in Tallaght, for which we had to fight for funding. It is doing a tremendous job in recognising that youth face a particular problem. It is important to talk about every single group but some have needs which can be isolated.

We must issue our report as quickly as possible. Senator Prendergast has said we need to bring forward our recommendations and also make a case for funding and resources at a time when everybody else is fighting for the same piece of the cake. We will not be popular in highlighting the issue of suicide prevention. However, it is right that we do so. All of us have a role to play in that regard. This is a small group but the sub-committee should not be afraid to speak up——

——otherwise we are wasting our time. We should try to make a difference with our report and not be afraid to upset people.

I agree with Deputy O'Connor. There is a lot of goodwill but it is a question of translating it into a real contribution and commitment to provide resources. There is goodwill because of the crisis in so many communities as a result of the number of deaths by suicide.

I agree. The four of us, with the support of Dr. Barry, should make our presence felt. What is the point in coming in here and doing all this work? We have to kick and scream to get this issue on the political radar. I am an action-oriented person and will be dispirited if I do not see results. I asked the Minister about the progress made in achieving the target of a reduction in the rate of suicide by 2012. What is happening in that regard? These matters are listed in the programme for Government but there is not another word about them. No wonder the people are cynical about politicians making promises. I am afraid of nobody and talk up at the parliamentary party meeting every Tuesday evening. Deputy O'Connor, Senator Prendergast, the Chairman and I should make waves. We are here to help those who are suffering. We will be ignored if we are complacent or fail to make waves.

That is an important point. We will also have to fight our corner at the Joint Committee on Health and Children because other members will have different priorities. We must stand together on this issue. I hope we can arrive at an all-party approach.

While I concur with Deputy O'Connor, the problem that could arise at the Joint Committee on Health and Children is that our report will be unanimously accepted and the joint committee will move on to the next item of business.

That will be up to us.

That is my point. It is up to us to ensure we also make a presentation on the contents of the report. The joint committee is frequently under pressure and while members have shown only good will towards our efforts, the issue of suicide has been marginalised. The joint committee could easily decide to accept our report and move on to the next item of business.

Members of the joint committee from all parties are high calibre, deadly serious politicians. I do not agree they would do as the Chairman fears.

The problem is that members may have different priorities from us, which is fair enough.

We should bear in mind that the sub-committee will also launch the report.

We must keep up the pressure.

We will make arrangements in the coming week and contact members about them. I may not be available on 25 March, the date suggested for launching the report, because the Irish Association of Suicidology is meeting on that day.

We must try to arrange a meeting when all four members of the sub-committee are available. Diplomatic skills will be needed to do that.

The sub-committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. sine die.
Barr
Roinn