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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Apr 2023

Housing for All: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Resumed)

Good afternoon everybody, and welcome. We are joined by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with responsibility for heritage and electoral reform, Deputy Noonan, and the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with responsibility for local government and planning, Deputy O'Donnell. I welcome them back to the committee and I am glad they are here.

We have had a series of meetings on Housing for All. We have had local authority representatives in from the cities, the greater Dublin area and more rural local authorities. We have also had the approved housing bodies, AHBs, in and we have had a range of contributors. The purpose of the meetings was to look at the historical production of housing, the current figures on social housing currently and the trajectory. They have been helpful sessions.

I welcome back the Minister's officials, who were with us only last week in what was a helpful and informative session. We have had 12 or 14 meetings at this stage and we propose to compile a report setting out our findings from those meetings. This is the final meeting and it is apt that the Minister is here with his officials and the Ministers of State, Deputies Noonan and Deputy O'Donnell, to help us bring this series of meetings to an end.

I will read a brief note on privilege before I invite the Minister to make his opening statement. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions. This means they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the speaker will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that the speaker complies with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as an obair atá déanta. Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil ár bplean ag obair. Níl gach duine á mothú go fóill but thógamar 30,000 teach nua anuraidh, sa chéad bhliain dár bplean. B'shin 5,000 níos mó ná ár sprioc. Anuraidh, thógamar níos mó tithe sóisialta ná mar a tógadh le 50 bliain. Tá tithe le praghas réasúnta le ceannach den chéad uair le 15 bliain. Den chéad uair riamh tá tithe á ligean ar chíos ar phraghas réasúnta tríd an cost-rental scheme. Fuair níos mó ná 25,000 ceannaitheoirí morgáistí anuraidh freisin. Tá Tithíocht do Chách ag obair ar son ár ndaoine. Tá an deontas folúntais Croí Cónaithe curtha i bhfeidhm againn chun cabhrú le daoine tithe a thabhairt ar ais in úsáid. Tá níos mó ná 1,500 iarratas ann cheana féin agus tá an first homes scheme curtha i bhfeidhm freisin le níos mó ná 1,300 iarratais ceadaithe cheana féin. Is fíor-chabhair do dhaoine na scéimeanna seo chun a tithe féin a cheannach. Déanfaimid gach rud is féidir linn chun tithe a sholáthar dóibh siúd nach bhfuil tithe acu ar chor ar bith.

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak and especially for the work it has done over the period of these hearings. I welcome the opportunity to update the committee on the progress made since the publication of Housing for All in September 2021. The Cathaoirleach has already introduced my colleagues, the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Noonan, and my officials, whom the committee met last week when they had a productive session.

Our plan examines and transforms practically every aspect of our housing system and is tackling problems that have festered for years. We delivered almost 30,000 new homes last year, the highest number of new homes in this country in well over a decade and, importantly, 5,000 more than the target we had set.

We have undertaken the most substantial review of our planning system since the legislation was enacted more than 20 years ago in an effort to streamline the process, improve clarity and make it more consistent for all. We have introduced the first affordable homes in a decade, underpinned by the Affordable Housing Act 2021. We have delivered more new-build social homes than in any year for almost five decades. We know there has been a trend of declining home ownership for a number of decades, especially among young people, and we have undertaken every possible effort to reverse this trend. Thankfully, last year we saw more first-time buyers buy their own homes than in any year since 2007. One in two new-build homes being bought is being bought by first-time buyers. This is tangible progress and we have to remember these are real people buying real homes and taking their stake in society.

Our affordability measures have been life-changing for many first-time buyers, particularly the first home scheme. Just short of 1,400 households in 24 counties have been approved and have received their eligibility certificates allowing them to buy their chosen home. Some 82% of live approvals have been for buyers in areas where affordability challenges are most acute, namely, Dublin, Cork, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. More than 3,500 potential buyers have registered interest in the scheme and that figure is increasing every week. We have extended the help-to-buy grant and enhanced the local authority home loan, increasing house price limits from March this year and opening the loan up to more people. We have launched numerous other schemes to stimulate affordable supply, such as Project Tosaigh through the Land Development Agency, LDA, and the Croí Cónaithe cities scheme, on which I may give members more detail later in the hearing. These schemes are working. Last year, we delivered almost 1,800 affordable homes through the first home scheme, affordable purchase and cost rental. While that is below our target, it represents a significant footprint and is up from effectively zero in the previous year.

We know there are big issues with the rental market and it is not working for tenants or landlords. My Department has commenced a comprehensive review of the private rental sector to take account of the significant regulatory changes of recent years. We have also introduced a wide range of protections for tenants, such as restricted deposit amounts, extended notice periods, tenancies of unlimited duration and lower rent increase caps. The introduction of cost rental for the first time in Ireland is key to transforming our rental market and over 680 cost-rental homes were delivered last year. More than 1,000 have been approved already and we want to do more, hence the announcements we made today, which we can go into during the meeting.

Last year saw the highest annual output of social homes in decades and the highest level of new-build social homes in almost half a century. Some 10,263 social homes were delivered through local authority or AHB build, acquisition or leasing. This represents an increase of nearly 12% on 2021 figures. Of the more than 10,000 social homes delivered, 7,433 were new-build, an increase of 43% on the previous year. The almost doubling of new-build social homes is a testament to how Housing for All is having a tangible positive effect for tens of thousands of people, particularly our most vulnerable.

More than €200 million has been allocated to tackling homelessness this year, and our Housing First programme is proving to be one of the most successful at tackling rough sleeping in the history of the State. The programme was expanded at the end of 2022 and a total of 804 individuals have so far been supported through Housing First, with a tenancy retention rate of nearly 90%. We are introducing measures to prevent new entries into homelessness. These include the expansion of the first home and tenant in situ schemes, as well as the development of a cost-rental tenant in situ scheme, which has been up and running since 1 April. A legislative first right of refusal for existing tenants is being progressed and we will endeavour to have that through in this session of the Oireachtas.

Tackling vacancy and maximising our existing stock is one of the quickest and most carbon-efficient methods of adding new supply. In January last, we launched our new vacant homes action plan and details of the €150 million urban regeneration and development fund for tackling vacancy through our local authorities. The action plan includes the roll-out of a data collection project across all local authorities to capture accurate vacancy data and support the full-time role of vacant homes officers, which is now a full-time position in 30 of the 31 local authorities. This self-sustaining €150 million fund will see a call for proposals from local authorities for funding to acquire vacant or derelict properties or sites in their area. The new vacant property refurbishment grant was launched and will be expanded to include homes which can be rented to private tenants. Earlier today, we increased the grant levels for vacant properties from €30,000 to €50,000 and for derelict properties from €50,000 to €70,000. Those grant increases will also apply to those whose application is in hand and who have not drawn down the grant so far.

Despite the progress being made, new challenges have emerged and existing issues worsened in the past year. We have had to respond to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, increased energy prices, rising interest rates and rising construction costs. In the 12 months since February 2022, wholesale prices for construction products have increased by nearly 15%. We knew, however, that we would have to respond to challenges as they arose, which is why we built the review mechanism into Housing for All. The updated action plan was published on 2 November and sets out how the Government is responding to these emerging issues. Thirty-three priority actions were identified in the review, which will expedite the delivery of housing supply while continuing to deliver on the fundamental reforms set out in the plan. Over recent months, the Government has agreed additional measures to prevent homelessness, which demonstrates the agility we have in addressing issues as they arise. My officials attended the committee last week and I want to note that any concerns raised are being considered by the Department. Although there is no question that much has been done, we know there is still much more to do.

Looking to the future, 2023 will see my Department, with cross-government support, advance recommendations from two recent studies, a cost of finance study and cost of construction analysis. It will see a second call under Croí Cónaithe cities to support the construction of apartments in urban areas for purchase, as well as the extension of phase 1 and launch of phase 2 of Project Tosaigh to support the activation of stalled private developments. Now that many of our affordability schemes have bedded in, we will see more affordable homes go to people who need them more than ever before. We will continue to deliver record levels of social housing and do everything to ensure we provide well-built, sustainable housing for all. I am happy to answer any questions members have.

I thank the Minister. I will move to members. We have a full house so I will try to keep the discussion to seven-minute slots, after which we will have time for a second round. I will go first to the Fianna Fáil slot and Senator Fitzpatrick.

I thank the Ministers and officials for attending. One year into Housing for All, our public hearings have shown to us and anybody paying attention that there is a broad welcome and broad support for Housing for All. It has been recognised as a comprehensive, ambitious plan. Some of the results are already being realised. We have the biggest housing numbers in a decade, the biggest social housing numbers in many decades and, for the first time in a generation, affordable housing. These are welcome developments and there is much positive feedback, particularly from local authorities. It is the first time many of our local authority directors feel they are not only being charged with delivering houses for their areas, but actually being resourced to do so. It was clear from them that, having put together their housing needs assessment, which is a new development and a new tool at their disposal, their housing plans are fully funded. That gives them a level of confidence they did not previously have.

The fastest and most sustainable way to increase housing supply is to use the existing vacant stock.

The Department and the local authorities have been working together and are to be commended on the progress that has been made in that area.

The fact there are now vacant housing officers in each local authority is hugely beneficial because each of these vacant properties must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. From talking to councillors and people around the country, I know the vacant housing officer is now an incredibly valuable resource to the local authorities. Is the Minister going to monitor that? I ask because having listened to local authority members, I have a sense that vacant housing officers are getting large numbers of inquiries on Croí Cónaithe and the vacant and derelict grants. Those will only increase in number so the local authorities may need additional resources. From a Dublin city perspective, the city council is ramping up and that will also present major opportunities. It seems from the inquiries the council is getting that the Minister may need to monitor and revisit those resources.

The initiatives on vacancy are great. The carrot is very large and attractive but there is an issue with the vacant property tax the Government introduced in the most recent budget. It seems very low. Is the Department working with the Department of Finance on this? Can we expect progress in the next budget on increasing the tax? Now that the funds and supports are in place, it is about what can be done to actively discourage any sort of vacancy or dereliction.

Affordability is the key issue. Affordable housing did not exist prior to Housing for All and is now beginning to be developed and delivered. The fact it is not only local authority affordable homes but also affordable homes in the shared equity scheme is welcome. From a Dublin perspective, that remains a pinch point and it is a priority. Will the Minister speak to what is being done to accelerate the delivery of affordability in the city?

I give credit to the Department for working with Dublin City Council as the lead local authority on social housing. One of the big developments for Dublin city is O'Devaney Gardens. It is fantastic to see the project has started after a decade and that it will provide more than 1,000 homes. However, the city council is telling us other big developments like St. Mary's Place on Dorset Street, the Constitution Hill flats and Matt Talbot Court are being delayed by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Can the Minister speak to that?

I cannot let the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, out of here without raising Moore Street again. Earlier today, I called for the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works to come to the Seanad again. There is still no date for commencement on the national monument site. Does the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, have any good news to share with us?

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. I will be quick. On resources for authorities, I think on the housing side we have over 300 new posts in social housing and for quantity surveyors, engineers and so on, and about 69 additional posts on affordable housing. As the affordable schemes are rolled out, especially through the local authorities, we have said we will provide further posts in that space. We have 42 or 43 affordable housing schemes approved through the local authorities using the affordable housing fund to deliver between 2,800 and 2,900 units. The pipeline is therefore very good. The Senator mentioned some of these projects as they will fall into that category under the affordable housing fund.

On vacancy, there have been over 600 applications so far for the Croí Cónaithe vacancy grant and the number is increasing all the time. We have said that where local authorities have a need for additional staff, they should make a submission to us and we will be open to any such submission. We have to base that on delivery, however. There is a real opportunity there. The Senator should not forget the town centre first teams are also in place in our local authorities and we expect them to feed in. The vacancy unit, which has been set up in the Department for the first time, has already engaged a number a times with the vacant homes officers across the country. There is only one post left to be filled and an offer is out on that. I will not name the local authority but the post is being filled.

On Dublin city in particular, I expect we will be able to sign agreements next month on the Croí Cónaithe apartment activation fund. Those are apartments for purchase. While we have a good pipeline of social housing, especially in Dublin city, we need more affordable housing and sooner. That element of Croí Cónaithe will interact with the help-to-buy grant and the first home scheme. Twelve schemes came through that staged process and we will be able to move the first four early next year.

I want to leave the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, some time to respond on Moore Street.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. Moore Street is certainly progressing. I am aware that this issue is frustrating and that the Senator has been raising it consistently. My understanding is the design team has been appointed. I will be dealing with the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill this afternoon in the Dáil and I give an assurance that we will be on site on Moore Street very soon.

To add to what the Minister said on vacancy, especially the expansion of Croí Cónaithe announced today, not all local authorities have conservation officers. That is something we are exploring further with the City and County Managers Association, CCMA. We would like to get conservation officers in every local authority, similar to the way we have had an expansion in the number of biodiversity officers with the Heritage Council. We are also having discussions with the vacancy unit in the Department on providing conservation advice to those considering restoring vacant properties. Many of them are heritage properties from the 19th century and early 20th century so it is important they are restored in a way that is thermally efficient and allows them to function well and perform as they should as heritage buildings. That is an important extension and addition to Croí Cónaithe.

I have a brief note to add to what the Minister said on vacancy. Many local authorities already have specialised vacant home units and these are being set up in all others. The units are multidisciplinary. Those that have been set up already are very successful at dealing with derelict sites. If local authorities have a requirement for additional resources, we are encouraging them to make a business case to us. We are very open in that regard. We want them to expedite matters with respect to the derelict sites register and, more particularly, bringing vacant homes back into use.

The Minister is coming to the end of his third year in office. On the basis of the data we have, for him to suggest he is making progress is genuinely delusional. Since he has been Minister, house prices have increased by over 20% and are higher now than they have ever been in modern times. Rents have increased by 23% and are still rising. Again, they are the highest they have been in the history of the State. Homelessness, on the Minister's watch, has increased by 40%. There has bee a 56% increase in child homelessness since the Minister took office.

I am looking at the statistics dashboard on the Department's website and I identify two worrying developments. Since the middle of last year, both planning permissions and commencements have been on a downward trajectory. We do not know where they will go in the months ahead but the signs are not positive.

Probably the most disappointing thing is that since the Minister assumed his role, he has failed to meet the very modest targets he set for social and affordable housing delivery three years in a row. Not only was his failure on social housing targets last year pretty poor, with targets across social housing supports missed by 25% and for new builds by 17%, but his affordable housing delivery last year, which had some of his lowest targets, was almost 60% below what he promised. That means, for example, he did not deliver 8,500 social homes he was meant to over three years. There are 7,500 households in emergency accommodation and one does not need to be a mathematician to understand the significance of that.

Last year, the Minister delivered only 323 affordable purchase homes under the affordable purchase fund. As he will know, many of those were not even purchased last year, including those in his constituency. Approved housing bodies are way behind on cost rental, with only 520 units delivered. The Minister promised that the LDA would deliver 1,000 such homes last year but it delivered 164. I do not know what the Minister's definition of "turning a corner" or "progress" is, but none of that suggests this plan is delivering.

I want to question the Minister about what he has announced today. There is a press release on the Department's website announcing €1 billion of expenditure over three years. There are 17 sentences explaining how that money is to be spent. There is literally no detail about the use of what is a very significant amount of taxpayers' money. I have specific questions and I am hoping the Minister will do me the favour of sticking to them in his response. Will the €750 million for the cost-rental subsidy scheme be equity or will it be grant aid? Has the Government secured approval from the European Commission that the scheme does not breach state aid rules?

Does the Deputy want me to answer now or finish his questions first?

My questions are short so I will go through them quickly if that is okay.

That is fine. The range is actually between €500 million and €750 million.

There is not an equivalent to the scheme. The Croí-----

Again, I am not looking for-----

I know the Deputy is-----

Is it about equity or grant aid? Does it have Commission approval?

The press conference earlier today was very clear on that. I am happy to have an opportunity to answer that question. The exact detailed design of the scheme will be worked on between now and-----

So, the Minister does not know whether it will be based on equity or grant aid at this stage.

If the Deputy is going to ask a question, he should let me answer it. I do not want to start off a three-hour session like this.

I will so long as the Minister answers it.

The Deputy gave a good preamble, which I would also like to respond to. We will get to that over the course of the meeting. I dispute-----

I have asked a very simple question. Is it based on equity or grant aid? The straight answer is that the Minister does not know yet.

No, the Deputy should not put words-----

So, the Minister does know.

There is no point in starting this meeting by trying to put words in my mouth. Will the Deputy please let me answer the question? This scheme is based on the Croí Cónaithe city scheme, which has Commission approval, and on the Swedish rental scheme because there is no equivalent scheme for transferring the build-to-rent sector to build-to-cost-rental. This Government supports cost rental and wants to see-----

I am genuinely not being adversarial but I have asked two very specific questions. Is it based on grant aid or equity? Does it have Commission approval?

When you are in government and designing a scheme that is going to be in place for a number of years, you have to make sure you get it right. The options-----

So, the Minister announced this scheme without having designed it. Is that what he is saying?

No, that is not at all what I am saying. Detailed work has gone into this. Many of the measures we have taken through Housing for All are very innovative. They are new and they are taking hold.

Will the Minister answer the specific questions I have asked?

The choice here is between a subvention, equity or a combination of both.

It has not been decided is what the Minister is saying.

That will be launched in-----

When will the Minister decide which it will be?

-----July of this year. I am endeavouring to answer as best I can. Sometimes, the answers to housing are not short pithy responses.

My questions are very specific. The Minister is going to announce the details in July.

No. If the Deputy read the statement, he will have seen that we got approval from the Government today to move to detailed design after many months of work. This is complex. The Deputy tries to present problems and solutions in respect of housing as very simplistic but they are not. Even though he wishes they were, that is not the reality of the situation. The reality is-----

The Minister has not decided yet. That is very clear.

We want to ramp up delivery of cost rental through the Land Development Agency, which the Deputy is opposed to.

I will move to my next question. There is a figure of €330 million for the rates and water connections levy. How will the Minister ensure that the reductions in development costs will be passed on to the purchaser? What is the mechanism for ensuring that saving will be felt by the buyer?

First, this is a short-term measure. We estimate the figure at €308.5 million rather than €330 million. It is a mix of development levies and Uisce Éireann connection charges. This is pointed at activating stalled permissions. What we will-----

The question I am asking is how the Minister will ensure it will be passed on to the purchaser.

I find it difficult to answer questions when Deputy Ó Broin continues to interrupt me as I am answering them. It is not a question of-----

Does the Minister have a mechanism to ensure it is passed on?

What we are doing is-----

It is a yes-no question.

No, it is not a yes-no question.

The Minister either has a mechanism or he does not.

It might be a yes-no question but the answer is not that simplistic. Of course, we want the savings we are passing on to allow small and large developments that have not proceeded heretofore for many reasons, sometimes including lengthy objections certain parties have made across the country-----

Will there be a mechanism to pass the savings on to the buyer?

What we are seeking from the sector is for the reduction in cost to be passed on. We want it to be passed on.

There is no mechanism to ensure that, however. The Minister is just hoping it will be passed on.

We are not just hoping.

My last question, in the small amount of time-----

No, I cannot just let that sit.

On the Croí Cónaithe towns scheme, did the Cabinet agree today to increase the overall allocation? There was somewhere between €30 million and €50 million allocated in the budget. I know the grant levels have been increased. I have no objection to that. Have the overall quantum of funding and the targets for this year been increased today, yes or no?

I am not going to proceed with yes-no answers at the direction of Deputy Ó Broin.

It is a very straightforward question.

By the way, this is a scheme that has worked. I am going to answer this question.

I have four seconds before the Chair has to move on. Was the overall amount of money increased today or just the targets?

Let the Minister answer because there is a lot of interest in this.

This will be dealt with. We have agreement from the Cabinet and the Government to expand this scheme. It is a demand-led scheme.

How much extra money was agreed to today?

The demand has been very strong.

How much extra money has gone into it today?

I might remind the Deputy that he wants to abolish this scheme, which is bringing vacant properties and derelict properties back into use.

How much extra money did the Minister get Cabinet approval for today?

We have 1,600-----

I thank everybody.

So, no extra money was agreed.

That is not correct.

So, how much extra money was agreed?

It is fine. Deputy Ó Broin can just keep going the way he is going.

There are people looking in here. They are interested in what is happening in housing and what is not happening in housing. This back-and-forth bickering is not really helpful for anybody.

I just wanted the Minister to answer the questions that were asked, which he refused to do.

I understand the drama, the same as many others, but I take the committee a lot more seriously than drama and entertainment. If people ask a question-----

We have a responsibility to scrutinise the Minister and he cannot even tell us if he got extra money for his scheme.

The Deputy has a responsibility to ask a question and then receive the answer. That is just common courtesy to guests and witnesses.

So, no extra money for the Croí Cónaithe towns scheme was agreed today.

That is not correct. It is a demand-led scheme. The Deputy knows that.

The Minister said it was demand-led. With all due respect, Deputy Ó Broin is not listening to the answer.

I am sorry, but there was an Estimate and a budget has been allocated. I want to know whether extra money has been allocated or not. The answer is "No".

It is demand-led.

I am going to move on to the Fine Gael slot.

I thank the Ministers for being here with us today. We can see from the report outlined and all of the announcements over the last number of months that progress is happening in housing. It is not happening quickly enough. We are all agreed on that. It is happening, however. Driving through my constituency, you can see apartment blocks and housing estates under construction. You can see progress. What we really need to do is accelerate that progress. That is what a lot of today's announcement was about.

I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, on increasing the funding for grants for refurbishment and vacant homes. I request that he also look at other local authority grants, particularly the disabled person's grant and the housing adaptation grant, which have retained the same cap year on year. Construction inflation has now driven up costs in this area. I ask the Minister of State to take that away with him.

Collectively, under the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, we wanted the grants for refurbishment to go up. They are now going up to €50,000 and €70,000, a rise of two thirds on the €30,000 for properties vacant for two years and a 40% rise on the €50,000. We want this scheme to work. As the Minister has said, this is a demand-led scheme. We had an initial target of 2,500. Some 1,500 to 1,600 people have already come forward. We want this to be an unqualified success and we hope other parties want the same thing. However, I get the impression that they want to tear it down before it even gets going. We want this to work.

On the housing adaptation and disabled person's grant, the Department has carried out a review. We are considering that at the moment. I expect that, with the Minister, we will be making a decision on that. Once again, when we are looking at schemes, we want to get them right. We need them to be looked at in good measure. That is why this report has been completed by the Department. We will be coming forward with a position on that pretty quickly.

I thank the Minister of State. That is really good news. I have a question for the Minister with regard to cost rental. I know cost rental is under way. We can see that happening. You can see it in my own constituency, particularly in Clondalkin and Newcastle. However, I am concerned that, in Dublin, the model might not always be fulfilling its brief as regards affordability. For example, the discounted cost-rental rent for a family of four with a household income of €53,000 would be €1,545. That would be approximately 45% of that family's disposable income. That is never what cost rental was meant to be. Obviously, it comes down to the cost of building the unit. Will the Minister give us an indication as to whether cost rental is working in Dublin and whether there are any plans to look at it further? Also on cost rental, will the Minister speak to us a little bit about tenants in situ? Where is that scheme with regard to cost rental? It was recently announced that the first home shared equity scheme can now be used by tenants in situ where landlords are exiting the market and selling. Does that apply to second-hand homes? If that is the case, why is it not being rolled out to all first-time buyers rather than just those served with notice to quit?

I thank Deputy Higgins. I will answer her question on the tenant in situ scheme first. The cost-rental backstop is in place. We have already had inquiries on that. It is being managed through the Housing Agency. I encourage people whose incomes are above the social housing limits and who cannot afford to buy the home even though the landlord is willing to sell to go to the local authority. The Housing Agency is managing that at the moment and the first inquiries in that space have already been made.

With regard to the first home scheme and extending it to assist people who are in a position to buy the home they have been renting, that measure has been in place since 1 April. We got approval from First Home Scheme Ireland DAC to do that. Again, we have had the first inquiries about that scheme. This is the first time we have moved into the second-hand market but we are doing so in a targeted way. We want the first home scheme to focus on increasing supply. We have actually seen that across the country already.

We have had first-home scheme approvals and eligibility certificates issued in 24 of the 26 counties.

A very important question was asked about cost rental. The cost-rental viability measure that was agreed today is a very important one to deliver more cost-rental units, at scale, through the LDA. This is what I was endeavouring to answer earlier on. That will take the form of a subvention, equity or both. However, when one is spending significant money, it takes some time to design the detail of a scheme such as this. The approval is there. The second round of Project Tosaigh, which is approximately 4,600 units that we have already gone through and we know where they are, would be a very good mechanism to get them up and running. We have advanced work on cost-rental design because we wanted to get it in place and prove concept and that has been done. More than 1,000 tenancies have been approved. However, since that has come in, we have seen the cost of financing increasing, which has put pressure on the development cost within cost rental. Before the summer, we will have changes to the cost-rental equity loan, which we will be working through. That has been advanced with stakeholders and the AHBs as well, because there is a good pipeline and we wish to scale this up.

That is very encouraging. I thank the Minister for that update. I will take a moment to remind the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, that he has an outstanding request from a heritage perspective, to visit St. Brigid's well in Rathcoole with a view to having the well restored.

We will get back to the Deputy with an update on that.

I thank the Minister, the Ministers of State and the Department for the complex work they are undertaking to deliver homes. First, I welcome today's measures to further enhance the delivery of cost-rental affordable homes and the provisions for making vacant properties viable homes, which brings prosperity to our towns, villages and cities. This Government's legislation and policy on housing are in the main, the Land Development Agency Act, which is mandated to build 30,000 cost-rental units over a 20-year period; the Affordable Housing Act, which legislated for 100% public housing on public land in Dublin and Cork; and the Housing for All policy. Will the Minister confirm that these actions have exceeded delivery expectations in the first full year of implementation, considering the Russian invasion of Ukraine, interest rate increases and the end of Covid restrictions? It is a simple answer.

I thank Deputy Duffy for his work and support. Those two Acts were crucial. The Affordable Housing Act set down cost rental on a nationwide basis in primary legislation. The Land Development Agency Act, as the Deputy rightly says, is designated for Cork and Dublin in particular, with regard to 100% social and affordable homes. There are some who would wish to ignore the fact that we had 20 weeks of a construction shutdown due to Covid. That was a reality and any Government or development sector, be that public or private, has to acknowledge that when one cannot effectively build for 20 weeks, it makes a difference, especially post the outbreak of the unjustified war in Ukraine, where we saw issues with the supply chain. We have seen significant issues with material inflation as well. We managed those issues as best we could, through the inflation framework that the Government brought in. The overall delivery last year of just short of 30,000 homes was significant. I would not dismiss the delivery - I know the Deputy is not - of 10,253 new social homes. That is significant. While the affordable delivery was below what we had targeted, we do not live in a perfect world and we had to adjust to be able to deliver. Just short of 1,800 affordable homes last year is a good footprint. We wish to do much more this year.

We are seeing a significant uptick in the first-homes scheme with regard to registrations and applications. We have had more applications in the first two and a half months of this year than we did in the first six months of the scheme. That is gaining traction. As I mentioned to Senator Fitzpatrick, we have 42 or 43 affordable housing schemes approved over 15 local authorities throughout the country, to deliver approximately 2,800 new homes and we will do more than that. The LDA can be a very significant vehicle to do so. Some people do not give credit to the local authorities which have been ramping up their social housing delivery. We asked them as well, for the first time in basically 15 years, to get going on affordable housing. That takes time but it is being done. The LDA, the local authorities and the first-home schemes are being done. We are ambitious to do much more this year.

There has been talk of a commitment to increase the cost-rental threshold. Can the Minister speak to that?

That is the work to which I referred in response to Deputy Higgins. The €53,000 net cap is in place at present. We are working on a tiered arrangement within that and potentially looking at regional prices within it, because there are different rents in different parts of the country and different levels of income too, but that is being worked on. It will be advanced before the summer recess. We have been engaged quite heavily with the AHB sector and the LDA, which have delivered the first cost-rental homes. Interestingly, we are seeing local authorities tomorrow in south Dublin. We will break ground on 134 new cost-rental units that are being delivered directly through South Dublin County Council. Local authorities can borrow at a lower rate through the Housing Finance Agency, HFA, than the AHB sector. There will be some structural changes to cost rental in the coming months to ensure its viability into the future.

I know the cost-rental numbers are lower than what is projected, but that is an average projection over 20 years. Does the Minister have any insight from on the ground and within the Department on the numbers that are escalating? We spoke to the Department last week, when it said it sees the numbers going well beyond what we got this year or last year. Will we surpass the 2,000 units going forward?

I believe we will surpass what we did with regard to affordable housing last year. We have a higher target of more than 5,000 affordable homes. We will surpass what was delivered in 2022. We intend to surpass delivery on social housing output as well. The cost-rental element of purchasing with tenant in situ is in place now. It is important that people know that. It is being managed through the Housing Agency, but we have every intention to exceed what we delivered last year, because there is a growing demand. Thankfully, if one looks at the first-time buyer sector in particular, we are seeing one in two new homes being bought by first-time buyers because of the support this Government is bringing forward. We want more cost rental. That is why we need the cost-rental viability measure and why we are looking at further changes to the cost-rental equity loan.

Is the referendum on the right to housing in the Minister's sights yet?

The commission is due to report to us on that. This committee will play an important role in it. There is a commitment in the programme for Government that we will have a referendum on housing, as we will on water. There are approximately eight referendums planned by this Government, the timing of which will be a matter for the Government to decide, but I expect the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage will play an important role in the work with regard to the referendum on housing. There has been some very good and detailed work done by the Housing Commission on the referendum.

I thank the witnesses for all they are doing.

I welcome the Minister, the Ministers of State and his housing officials. Everybody here accepts we need to accelerate the supply of new homes across a range of homes and reduce the cost of construction. That is a given. I have said many times on this committee that I do not buy into any ideology. I do not exercise too much time on who is building the houses. It is about delivery of homes; housing units. That is an important point to make. Unlike previous speakers, I will not be asking questions. I will use my valuable seven minutes to engage with the Minister, because it is rare we have three Ministers or Ministers of State sitting in front of us and I wish to share my thoughts. I am conscious there are many people listening, including many sitting county councillors, whom I greatly support, as do all of us here. They are my audience here today. I have flagged to every one of them that this meeting was on. I have sent them the link.

I have no difficulty with everything the Minister has said in his statement. I will not go back. I am not suggesting it is a history lesson. There have been mistakes and I think we all accept that, but I acknowledge the work of our sitting county council officials. It is not an easy station. It is not an easy place to be, in housing, turning down people and telling them they are on €41,500 and do not qualify for social housing. This is the reality of it.

I had a couple with me the other day who felt quite rejected. Someone from outside of the housing authority suggested that what they needed to do was to become unemployed, to come back in 12 months, and then to reapply and they would get a place. Is that not a very disappointing suggestion but that is the reality of it?

I want to turn to today because I like to live in the present. Today, the Cabinet has signed off and there is a press release on a new housing measure in efforts to boost supply. At the outset yesterday, the Taoiseach suggested that this issue would continue for a number of years. Some other bulletin this afternoon said that this measure will go on for 12 months, so there is something of an issue around that.

What I would like to talk about to the Minister here is that there are two new words the Taoiseach spoke about yesterday, which struck me as somewhat surprising in the context of what he was talking about. These are the gifting of planning levies for a period of time to developers. Remember that our planning levies are a supplementary development levy scheme and they arise from an exclusively reserved function of the elected members of councils. Here, we are undermining local government yet again. These levies, I repeat, are an exclusive function of the elected members to adopt a contribution scheme within a local authority. The Taoiseach's words in the RTÉ press coverage last night and this morning were that we were talking about "social infrastructure". It is infrastructure - one call it social infrastructure if one likes - but the Taoiseach then talked about socialising the cost. Since when did socialising the cost came into this?

I completed a house in the past 12 months and I know what I paid in development levies to my planning authority. These were levied by the authority, and rightly so, and I paid them. I am unsure where they are going and this raises another issue as to how we fund our local government system. That, however, is a debate for another day.

Why are we gifting, what could be up to €25,000 per housing unit in certain circumstances and locations, to developers? These are the same developers who asked about a fast-track strategic housing planning scheme. They said that this would sort out all of their problems. We also know the architects within the Custom House, who supported them in their development of this scheme. Many of us on this committee cautioned around the issues of the strategic housing scheme and we know where they went. Some went to very high places in housing and planning and some fell out of those high places, but that is another day's work. We know who we are talking about, however.

At the end of the day we must remember that it is not the Government that is paying for this, it is the taxpayer who is paying. The taxpayer is going to bail out developers yet again. Many of these developers are the same people who have planning permissions, and are sitting on sites for planning permission. These developers say that these sites are not viable. When I am in a business and it is not viable, I move to something else, I make some arrangement to make my business viable, or I get out of business. But no, here we are, bailing them out. It is simply a gift.

One suggestion is that this waiving of fees will be for 12 months, another is that it should be for two to three years. There is a bit of an issue around that which is also very important.

Why did the Government not consider the possibility of giving the levy charged to that house or residential property back to the first-time buyer? Did the Government look at the VAT situation and could it have reduced the overall cost for builders through the VAT system, which would be a clean tax revenue system? Was this issue discussed with the CCMA? I understand it was but, again, we have no idea what is going on with the CCMA because that association seems to be a law unto itself and seems to also have some special status and arrangement with the Minister's Department.

It is important to ask how temporary this measure is. That will be worked out in the detail and I accept that the Minister does not have all of the finer detail, but I just want to say that it should be worked out. There are serious concerns with removing this levy from our local authorities. I presume local authorities will continue to put on and index their levy on their scheme, and that the cost will be found by the State, which will use the taxpayers' money to reimburse the local authorities. There are serious concerns here and the Government needs to spell out the issue in respect of that.

As I have said, and I have checked today that under the legislation, the adoption of a development contribution scheme is a reserved function of the elected members of each planning authority, namely, its city or county council and its councillors, and applies to the administration area of each council. It is the imperative of councillors, therefore, that they are fully consulted about the changes. The organisations tell me that they have no knowledge about these changes other than what they have read. There are serious concerns about the scheme and that is an issue.

I also took the time, about which the Minister would be very familiar, to look at the Minister’s own local authority of Fingal and its development levy scheme. The Minister will recall that there are levies for transport, the airport’s western access route, the airport roundabout upgrade, and there are matters in respect of surface water and the development of local parks in Donabate, Lusk, Rush, Naul and north-west Balbriggan. All of these great schemes in the Minister’s constituency, of which I have no doubt he was fully supportive of, are to be funded by levies. I acknowledge and accept that the Minister has to work out the detail but there is a real issue here about the perception that the State and the Government is using taxpayers’ money for many very well-heeled developers. I will leave it at that. These are concerns and I ask that the Minister take them on board in the coming weeks? We can engage on this at another time.

The waiving of these levies will only be for one year.

I thank Senator Boylan. I move on now to Deputy Cian O’Callaghan.

I thank the Chair. I also thank the Ministers and officials for coming in. I have a number of questions so I will give the Minister plenty of time to respond but I will want to come in for more questions. If I am cutting the Minister off at some point, that is why am doing that.

First, on the issue of the development levies, the Minister states that he wants the savings to be passed on and that these reductions in cost will passed on. How and what safeguards are there to ensure that the savings will be passed on to individual buyers? Are there any safeguards, guarantees or structures in place to ensure that?

This is fundamentally an activation measure. We have estimated the costs to be approximately €308 million, as I said earlier on. We want any savings that can be passed on to be passed on. One of the most significant issues is that we need to ramp up supply, where we are talking about it being across all tenures. This is a targeted measure and will last from today, 25 April, to not later than 24 April next year. It will be on the basis of lodging a commencement notice and the developments must be finished by 31 December 2025.

To return to the point made by Senator Boyhan, this is not a measure which will be extended.

We are not going to monitor every single development and I want to be very clear on that. This is about getting additional activity which is focused, in particular, on developments which have been paused.

To conclude, if one looks at apartment costs in particular, between the development levy and the water connection charge, this could be just short of €20,000 per unit. It is a significant reduction in cost, which we would expect to be passed on. We are not going to monitor every scheme and I want to be very public about this for the Deputy.

I thank the Minister for his reply. On the cost-rental scheme, and I appreciate the Minister’s previous answer where the detailed design is yet to happen so the Minister may not have the full details on this, but at this stage, does the Minister know when the subsidy is given, will all of these cost-rental apartments and homes be transferred to a not-for-profit housing association or local authority, or do they remain in private ownership, potentially? Will these houses be cost-rental homes in perpetuity, will it be for a set period of time, or are these things not worked out yet?

I am glad the Deputy is giving me the opportunity to answer this question because there are large elements of the scheme which are actually worked through. There is one issue with regard to what level of subvention versus equity, or is one or the other, will apply? The vast bulk of these houses will be delivered through the Land Development Agency, LDA, so these will be Land Development Agency cost-rental properties. We have good sight of them, of cost-rental units which we could bring forward, where planning permissions are granted and where the LDA will either be in a joint venture or will buy out. The issue has been that viability gap. The viability gap for cost-rental is about reducing the development cost in order that we can reduce the rent that someone is paying. There will be a minimum of 50-year tenures on these units and they will be designated cost-rental schemes.

Any scheme which enters in will do so on an open-book basis, like what we have done with Croí Cónaithe cities. It is open book and will be open to the private sector and across-the-board. We see the major part of this delivery being through the Land Development Agency and we have, as I have said, sight of those schemes already.

We are looking at an equity stake, potentially, or a subvention or both, to the tune of an average of €125,000 per unit. They will be, however, very much focused on apartment development where, whether one likes to accept it or not - I am not saying this specifically about Deputy O'Callaghan himself - we are not seeing the development of apartments in our cities at scale. We need to intervene to ensure that that happens to provide those additional homes we need.

At least all of these properties, therefore, will be a minimum 50-year tenure cost-rental property.

Yes, and I expect the vast bulk of them - this comes from our own analysis - will be done through the LDA. They will effectively be State cost-rental homes.

The LDA will own them or will transfer them to a not-for-profit organisation.

Yes, we are talking about the Land Development Agency, whether it is managed through an approved housing body, AHB, or not.

We know what is in Project Tosaigh phase 2 and what elements of it relate to cost rental and a sizeable portion of them do as well. Cost rental is capital heavy. It is not like affordable purchase, where one gets capital back. Funding needs to be done upfront and the rent is paid back, which gives the required income. That is why the subvention and capitalisation of the LDA is very important.

In the Housing for All strategy, there is a commitment for the second quarter of this year that there be an examination of the creation of a holding system for rental deposits. As the Minister knows there has been legislation since 2015 for a deposit retention scheme for renters. This can cause huge issues for some people regarding putting them at risk of homelessness. If they do not get the deposit that is due to them back they may not be able to rent somewhere else because they are not able to raise another deposit. This can lead to people becoming homeless. The legislation, as I said, has been on the books since 2015. When is this going to come in?

Last week, Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh may have covered with members the full rental market review we are doing. We are looking at this issue as part of the review. As the Deputy knows, and this was supported across the Houses, we have reduced the level of deposit that landlords can charge. Students are covered within the measure also. We expect to publish documentation for public consultation around the rental market review. This examines what a rental market in Ireland should look like in an ideal world. It also looks at the measures we can take including security of deposit. That will appear in be in the coming weeks.

Does the Minister appreciate that the legislation has been in place since 2015, though?

I fully appreciate that fact. I have called for it when on the other side of the House. I also called for the abolition of strategic housing developments, SHDs, and did so once I got into government.

Great. In that case, when is a deposit protection scheme going to come in?

My point is we are going to publish that as part of the rental market review.

Is the Minister going to introduce a deposit protection scheme during his tenure?

As the Deputy knows, we have discussed this here before. It will be a sizeable piece of work to be undertaken on the financial side of things to have a separate entity that would protect deposits that are paid for all of our renters. We have already made some changes and I expect to do more.

Over a year ago the Minister gave a commitment on legislation banning sex for rent practices. When is the legislation going to be introduced by Government?

I have written to the Deputy on this as well. We have engaged directly with the Department of Justice, which will be the lead on this. I will seek an update for the Deputy and I will respond. I do not have an exact date at the moment. As it is a criminal act, I would expect the Department of Justice to be the lead on it. I will get details for the Deputy and submit them to the committee.

I welcome all three Ministers here. This is a very important discussion we are having. I continue to receive calls on a daily basis from people looking for housing.. Unfortunately, where I live in County Kildare, people are still seeing that houses are not being delivered quickly enough. We all want houses delivered quickly enough. The Minister has stated that the Government is doing it as quickly as possible, but the reality on the ground in places like Kildare belies this.

I want to take up the point that Deputy Higgins raised about the cost-rental model and the amount of rent per month that people are paying. Kildare seems to be very similar to Dublin in this regard. Many people are paying a high proportion of their wages each month in relation to cost rental. To be specific about his answer, does the Minister have proposals to reduce that cost on people? Credit is not available to them. I know of people in County Kildare who are paying from €1,300 to €1,500 per month often on limited wages. This is a large percentage of their actual earnings.

We are working on revisions to the cost-rental equity loan, CREL, model, which is what funds AHBs to deliver them. If we take Kildare for example, in Barnhall in Leixlip, the average monthly rental cost per unit there is about €1,250. In Newbridge in Kildare it is €1,197. As costs of development and financing have gone up, this has led to pressure on the upper limit of €1,545 per month. We are working that through. Ms Laura Behan and Ms Caroline Timmons might have covered this with the committee last week. We are well advanced on the issue. We wanted to get cost rental up and running and we have done so. We have funded over 1,000 tenancies and there about 600 homes with people actually in place now. They are paying substantially less than the market rate, on average about 30% less. However, the increases in construction and financing costs have put pressure on the upper limits. We are working on it and I would expect the changes to be out in advance of the summer. We are aiming for June. The cost-rental viability measure announced today will operate mainly through the LDA . Its main aim is to reduce the cost of development and thereby pass on the reduction to the tenant who is going to be there on a long-term basis at reduced rental. That is the timeframe we are operating under.

It was announced today that the scrapping of the development levies will cost €308 million. Is the Government going to fund the local authorities for that money. Can the Minister confirm this?

I can and it gives me an opportunity to mention what Senator Boyhan mentioned as well. We are not in any way reaching into councils setting the schedules or the rates. This is a one-year measure. On a month-in-arrears basis, the councils will submit the waivers received and we will pay the full amount on a monthly basis. A slightly different process, but the same will happen with Uisce Éireann as well. No local authority will be left out of pocket. It is a time-bound measure of 12 months running up to 24 April next year on the condition that the development is completed by 31 December 2025 but there will be no reduction. This will also apply to anyone who is building their own home. Single homes and rural houses will also receive the benefit of the waiver over the course of this year, both in water connection and in development levies.

One of the biggest issues that comes up when I talk to Kildare County Council in particular, is availability of land for social housing development. What are the plans to make land available to support local authorities in purchasing land? Much of the land they have at the moment is simply not suitable for housing development.

It is a very fair point. That is why we introduced a fund managed by the Housing Agency to enable local authorities to buy land for social and affordable housing. That is open right now and we have received submissions from local authorities. It will help the process of the land purchasing arrangements. Kildare County Council might be used to it while others might not be. There is a diminished land bank in some areas of the country and we want to replenish it. We have allocated about €125 million to the fund. It is in place now and is up and running.

I thank the Minister. I want to take up a point that Deputy Higgins raised and which I also raised with the Minister the last time he was in the Seanad regarding the housing adaptation grants. I am informed through a Commencement matter that this report has been on the Minister's desk since January of this year. The Minister might check with his officials if that is true or not. What are the plans in this regard? I am dealing with a lot of people who cannot go back into their homes. What are the plans to increase those grants? More importantly, will the Minister confirm when that is going to happen? Many people are staying in nursing homes or hospitals because they cannot return to their own homes because the housing adaptation grant is not fit for purpose as it stands.

We have received the report. We are considering jointly it with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. We will move on it quickly

Will that be within a couple of months?

I want to raise the issue of movement of people to different local authorities within the tenant in situ scheme, from Dublin to Kildare, for example. The last time this was brought up at the committee, no conversations were going on between local authorities. Has that changed? Can someone who was on another local authority list benefit from the tenant in situ scheme?

I am glad the Deputy asked that question, because they can. There were trans-boundary issues with people on housing assistance payment, HAP, in one local authority but on a list elsewhere. Through the directors of services for housing, that has been worked through. If for example, someone is renting in Kildare, but is a HAP tenant in south Dublin, Kildare can purchase the house. Mechanisms have been worked out between the two local authorities to make sure this is highlighted. There is now no barrier to purchase with tenant in situ just because someone is on housing lists elsewhere. If they are a HAP or rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenant renting in Kildare, say, and on a list somewhere else, they can proceed with the purchase. There were some matters to be worked through procedurally. That has been done. If Deputies and Senators have any other instances, I am still getting examples in. When Ms AnnMarie Farrelly made a presentation to the committee a few weeks ago, we had over 1,000 cases in process since the start of January and the figure is increasing every day.

We will exceed the baseline target, that we set, of 1,500 this year and we intend to do that. The same applies regarding the cost-rental backstop and, yes, that is the position.

We will take the Fine Gael slot again and I call Senator Cummins.

I thank the Minister and Ministers of State for their attendance. This meeting gives us a good opportunity to discuss some of the items that have been announced today and some of the other items that have been worked through over the past couple of years.

I will begin by discussing the changes announced today in the grant for vacant and derelict properties. It is positive news that a person can receive up to €70,000 to bring a derelict property back into use and it is possible to combine the scheme with the SEAI energy grant of €27,000. So now nearly €100,000 is available in grant support for young people to bring a derelict property back into use for housing. I believe the announcement will change the dial and have a tangible impact on housing so I commend the Minister and Ministers of State on their work on this matter.

When will the updated guidance document and circular be issued to local authorities regarding the changes that were announced by Cabinet today? It is important that is done because I want to ensure there is no ambiguity among councils. The Cabinet has made a very clear decision and we want to see it implemented by local authorities as soon as possible.

The changes take effect from 1 May. All local authorities will receive notification in advance of that and we have engaged with them before this. I wish to alert anyone who has not drawn down the grant that the grant is not drawn down until the very end.

Some people may play on that but that is the way it is. You do not pay for works until they are done and are invoiced.

The uplift in the grant amounts will be applicable to them also. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, will comment on our engagement with local authorities.

Tomorrow, Department officials will meet the vacant homes officers in each local authority to brief them on the changes, which will be followed by the issuing of a circular and guidance, and a list of frequently asked questions and answers will be provided. We will move into full action on this tomorrow with the key people, who are the vacant homes officers and the designated teams in local authorities because they are the point of contact for people inquiring about the Croí Cónaithe scheme. As the Senator has said, the fact is the scheme is now being extended to properties pre-2007 as distinct from 1993, and that will also apply to rental properties. It is a fact that we are increasing the grant by €20,000 for both vacant and derelict homes. We very much want to intensively engage with local authorities, as we have done to date. If local authority officials have questions on implementing the scheme then they will be dealt with tomorrow.

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials for taking that retrospective piece on board. I raised the issue at our meetings of this committee because it is important that the system is not clogged up with people who have already been approved for a grant trying to reapply for a higher grant. I welcome the clarification.

On cost rentals, for some time I have told anybody who would listen that the issue is that the cost of building, financing and maintaining a development over a 40 or 50-year period at best equals the cost of market rent and it does not equal market rent minus 25%. I have stated that the only way we will ever unlock the developments that have planning permission is via the provision of a subsidy or an equity. Therefore, I warmly welcome the positive decision that the Government has made as it will unlock developments for cost-rental purposes. Let us be very clear. The people who will rent properties do not care whether the units are delivered by the LDA, the approved housing bodies, councils, private developers, public private partnerships, or community or co-operative trusts. They do not care because they want rental homes or homes for ownership. The decisions that have been made to provide equity or subsidies in order to unlock those developments are extremely positive news.

I ask the Minister to confirm that the scheme has been opened up to go beyond AHBs, the LDA and councils. I know that he does not expect a great deal in terms of the private sector element but is the scheme being opened up beyond that? I ask because I raised this issue, if he recalls, at the very outset when we debated and passed the legislation.

Yes. The scheme has been opened up. The Act permits that.

That element was part of the debate and we went through the Land Development Agency Act. Cost-rental schemes on continental Europe allow ethical investment within that but cap creative return, and we can do that also. As a reference to tomorrow, the local authorities are now getting directly involved in cost-rental units, which is welcome, so that is local authorities, the LDA, approved housing bodies and, indeed, others if they can deliver it because it is a form of tenure that is very popular. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of the tenants who have gone into those homes and the Senator is 100% right that they are delighted. Some of those people had rented for many years in a dysfunctional rental market but they are now able to get safe and secure tenure with an affordable rent. Yes, it is across the board. I expect that the main delivery of that particular measure will be done through the LDA. As I mentioned to colleagues earlier, the changes to the cost-rental equity loan will be brought forward and I expect that to happen in June, which will assist further viability issues for the AHB sector that has engaged really well with us on this matter.

On the repair and lease scheme, I am a strong advocate for changing the dial in terms of the delivery of units in my own county of Waterford. On 14 April, the new Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and, earlier, the Minister visited the old nursing home at St. Joseph's House, Manor Hill, Waterford city. The building belonged to the Little Sisters of the Poor but it is now being converted into 71 units for older persons and the project will be ready next month. That is fantastic news but the project could not have been delivered without the repair and lease scheme. As part of that scheme a special case was made to raise the ceiling from €60,000 to €70,000 and the reason was because additional funding was needed to complete a development of that nature. When representatives of the city councils of Cork, Dublin and Limerick were before this committee they asked for the amount to be increased from €60,000 to €80,000, and I think that increase must happen. As I said last week when the Department officials were here, I emphasised that such expenditure would be fully recouped by the State. It makes inherent sense to invest upfront in order to deliver this scheme and ask that the financial ceiling for the repair and lease scheme is increased.

I am seriously impressed by the St. Joseph's project in Waterford City and commend Waterford City and County Council on the work it is doing.

First, we have targeted all local authorities with repair and lease targets. The targets have been issued to them. That has not been done before and I know that the Senator has strongly advocated for doing so.

Second, I support the call for a higher amount. We are engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on getting sanction for the higher amount. It makes absolute sense.

I recommend anyone who has not seen the scheme in Waterford City to do so because the project is exceptional. It is amazing the difference the project will make to the lives of seniors in the area, many of whom will move from other local authority homes to live there thus freeing up more homes.

The Minister is correct. Fifty percent will be local authority homes and 50% will be private rental homes, which will have a very positive impact on the private rental market in Waterford City.

Did the Minister say that all local authorities will be mandated to provide some amount of homes through the repair and lease scheme?

Yes, I have sent targets to all local authorities in that regard.

That is great. We made that recommendation.

Some are low targets because none has been done so we want to get the scheme up and running.

This committee compiled a report on urban regeneration and made the recommendation. I am glad to see such progress.

Credit is due to Senator Cummins.

We will give credit to the Senator but we do things collectively here on the committee.

I thank the Minister, his two Ministers of State and Department officials for coming here.

It was stated that 4,000 affordable housing units would be delivered but fewer than 1,800 have been delivered. Sinn Féin felt that the figure of 4,000 units was too low and I believe that only delivering fewer than 1,800 units is a complete failure. I will give an example of what is happening on the ground. There were 135 affordable houses built in Cork last year.

No one is living in them. At the time my colleague Deputy Ó Broin outlined how the legislation was so complex. It should have been streamlined for the delivery of these houses. What we have at present are houses that have been built for nine months with no one in them. Many people have received mortgage approval from banks that lasts only six months. Now we have people who will not be able to buy these houses even though they applied for them when they were built and they were qualified and entitled to do so.

Which scheme is this? I apologise for interrupting Deputy Gould.

There is Boherboy Road, Middle Glanmire Road and Tower in Blarney. There are three schemes at present.

Is Deputy Gould making the point about all three of them?

The Boherboy Road houses in Mayfield have been built for nine months. They were announced 2019. Deputy Varadkar was also Taoiseach then and he was down there opening them. To be fair to Cork City Council it was the first local authority out of the blocks and it is delivering on numerous sites. People are contacting me because they will lose their homes.

With regard to affordable purchase and specifically the issues relating to Cork, Cork City Council has done a good job in leading there, as has Cork County Council quite significantly. There were issues with conveyancing on some of the initial cost-rental homes. There was the same issue in Lusk in north County Dublin. It had to be worked through. I have just seen a note that states 183 disposal notices in respect of reports were presented to the general meeting of Cork City Council on Tuesday, 11 April for approval and the handover of keys to purchasers will coincide with the completion of the conveyancing process, depending on the individual purchaser.

There were issues initially, and I came across them, particularly on conveyancing. We now have a common pack for conveyancing for all local authorities. The legal process has been done. We did just short of 1,800 affordable homes. Yes that was below target, and I said this in my opening remarks, but it is a big uplift on the previous year. We intend to do a lot more this year. I will conclude on this because I know time is of the essence. We have 42 affordable housing schemes through local authorities alone approved through the affordable housing fund. I am not dealing with the first home scheme or the Land Development Agency on this. This will deliver approximately 2,800 to 2,900 homes. We are assessing another number of schemes for another 1,200 homes.

Will the Minister give me or Cork City Council a commitment regarding anyone who is approved to buy one of these homes if the bank pulls mortgage approval? One family, comprising a husband, wife and two children, is living in a box bedroom. They were waiting to move into one of these in February. Another family is split between each of their parents. Another woman with children has mortgage approval and is living in terrible conditions. She is now worried there is a possibility that because of the delay she could lose mortgage approval. Will the Minister give a commitment with regard to anyone who falls through? Yesterday I was on local radio in Cork. No one can understand how the conveyancing issues were not dealt with at the time. Surely it was spotted when the Minister and the Department were putting this together. Was it not spotted then? When was it spotted and why was it not acted on?

The Affordable Housing Act was passed in 2021 and these were in the first batch of affordable properties. Any delay is not to be welcomed. To give more detail, I cannot give a guarantee to anyone about a mortgage lender or a private bank that is lending. Any lending institution or mortgage institution that is lending for a State-backed affordable home, where the State is in many instances is taking one quarter to one third of the home in equity and with a reduced sale price, would be crazy not to reissue mortgage approval. We are looking at very affordable homes here and this is what we want. We want more of them. Cluain Chaoin will go to the general meeting of Cork City Council for approval on Monday, 8 May.

The only reason the Minister is going there is because I have been down in Cork shouting and roaring-----

No, I am not going there. It is going to the city council.

I have been calling for these for months. This is the reason. It is the pressure that we have put on local authorities and the Department. I will move on because I am conscious of the time.

This is all about the delivery of housing. We want to see houses delivered because we are dealing with unbelievable cases. The decision was made to lift the ban on evictions without supply. We know the ban on evictions cannot be there forever but when it was put in place originally last year supply was to be ramped up. I am dealing with a number of people who are losing their houses. A few weeks ago I raised in the Dáil the issue of a woman who has COPD and is on oxygen 24 hours a day. She was due to be evicted a few weeks ago. She got an extension then but she is to be out on Thursday. I spoke to her family. This lady is a pensioner with a serious medical condition.

I know of a woman who has leukaemia and another woman with breast cancer. One is undergoing radiotherapy and the other is undergoing chemotherapy. I know of a family whose child has autism who will be going into emergency accommodation. We can imagine moving from the country to the city to go into a hub and then going back out to the country every day so a child can have an education. These are the cases I am dealing with. The Minister has not delivered a supply of housing. I appeal to the Minister to reinstate the ban on evictions and give himself an opportunity to deliver what he is trying to deliver. Then we might be in a better position this time next year or early next year if the Minister can deliver supply.

The time has elapsed but I ask the Chair to allow me 30 seconds to respond. The decision that we took to bring in the eviction moratorium was to provide additional space to provide more accommodation. We did this with more than 6,000 new social homes in the last quarter of last year. The tenant in situ scheme was expanded to at least 1,500 and there is also the cost-rental backstop. There is the ability to do the first home scheme, where tenants can get assistance to be able to purchase their home.

What about all of the people who are becoming homeless?

I meet the chief executives of the local authorities on a regular basis, including the chief executive of Cork City Council and others throughout the country. All of our local authorities are fully tooled up to provide support for tenants. I will conclude on discussing the reason we did not extend the ban. Deputy Gould's party called for three different extension dates. Extending the eviction moratorium would make a very difficult situation in the private rental sector even worse.

The Government's job is to take the correct and responsible decisions even if in the short term they are not the most popular decisions. A further extension of the moratorium would make the medium to long-term situation even worse.

We have asked for data on this.

It has to be ramped up for the supply.

If the Minister has data for this will he release it so that we can see it? All we hear is the Minister and others making comments but there is no proof. What I am saying is all based on proof. My anecdotal evidence is that the lifting of the ban on evictions is a catastrophe and there is no proof to say otherwise.

Every effort and every measure will be put in place to assist people who need it. We are increasing supply across the board even though there are regular objectors to the schemes that are there. We have people who say they are for home ownership and they do not want the help to buy grant or the first home scheme. There are all of these issues and people should look at it in the round. I am acutely aware of those who have no home. Our biggest focus is on our homeless cohort so we can exit people from homelessness to permanent social homes. We are seeing this increase, thankfully. We saw an increase in the last quarter also. It is a challenge and Deputy Gould knows this. We cannot just click our fingers and fix it but Deputy Gould can be absolutely assured that my colleagues and I will work night and day to continue the work that has been done to provide supports for the people who need them and to get more social homes built so that people have safe and secure homes for life.

I thank the Minister and the Ministers of State Deputies Noonan and O'Donnell. It is great to see them here. I commend them because we have seen an unprecedented suite of measures during the lifetime of the Government to tackle the housing crisis. It is probably fair to say that no other country in the world has dealt with it in such a hands-on manner and has been willing to make as many interventions as we have in the housing market. I can give a very parochial view of how it is working. Longford County Council has just published its expression of interest for its first affordable housing scheme. It was a bee in my bonnet in the committee on many occasions. We have three significant apartment projects under way under the repair and lease scheme and potentially three former public houses being converted into apartments. I spoke to the local authority yesterday and it is dealing with its first tenants who are over the limit for social housing.

They are looking at them for either the cost-rental or tenant in situ schemes. Real action is being taken. Local authorities are engaging with tenants at risk of eviction.

Croí Cónaithe has been a game changer. Many members on this committee were vehemently critical of the scheme. When we first launched the scheme, many people in rural Ireland said they had identified flaws in it. They said there was not enough money and they would like to see it expanded to houses that potentially could be rented afterwards. Hey presto, the Government responded and announced those changes today. The Minister’s whole policy and raison d'être in housing has been that he identifies a problem and then reacts. He is making the difference.

Builders say the houses they are building now are not the same as the houses we built in 2008. We had the mica scandal, apartment defects and many issues. A builder will tell you anecdotally that what he built in 2008 he could not build now pro rata. A three-bedroom bog-standard entry house is probably €80,000 more expensive and will take at least six months longer to build to B2- or A-rated standard. The specs of the houses being built now are second to none, not only in Ireland but possibly in Europe. We have to take account of that as well.

I wish to flag two issues since the two out of three Ministers from the Department are present. One of those is the tenant purchase scheme. The rules on that were changed towards the end of last year. Previously, it would have been two years’ tenancy before someone could apply for it and then a ten-year rule was brought in. Most people accept the logic of it, which is to try to keep the housing in stock. The difficulty is, to give an anecdotal example, a couple in their 40s who get allocated a local house. If they have to wait to ten years before they can pursue the option of buying that out, they will get caught when they try to get finance. In reality, they will not get a loan. I suggest that be changed to five years. Will the Minister and Minster of State take that on board and look at it? It is a reasonable halfway house between two and ten years. Ten years is prohibitive. I would like them to take that on board.

The other issue is the old affordable housing scheme, which predated 2002. Basically, my understanding at the moment is that approximately 2,000 households throughout the country are in limbo. In essence, many of them bought houses under the scheme in the early 1990s and continued to redeem what they understood to be a straightforward mortgage while also paying rent to the local authority. However, the net result is, 30 years down the road, they are still redeeming what they understood were mortgages but are actually the same value almost as the mortgage that they took out. It probably is better described as an equity stake in the house rather than a mortgage. It is probably more troubling in counties where house prices have not risen at scale, such as Longford and broader midlands counties. The houses are actually worth less now than when the people took out the mortgage.

A case in point is a lady I know who is poised to retire. She has worked hard all her life. She never missed a single payment or a single week’s rent on that house. She should be looking forward to the warm glow of home ownership as she enters retirement. Instead, she has seen two interest rate rises in the past two years. She is continuing to pay €90 a week rent and €264 mortgage a month, and she still has approximately €130,000 to redeem on that. The local authority wants her to restructure her loan, but the essence of restructuring is that she will forego her right to ownership of that house, which seems deeply unfair. The second ask I have is that we try to remedy this. It is a deeply unfair scenario. It gnaws at people when they hear that we are ruling out affordable housing. These people are in houses that were the forerunners of affordable housing and they have effectively an anchor around their future prospects. The cost involved is not huge. It is 2,000 households, so it is probably €20 million. When I say it quickly, it is not an awful lot, but I appreciate that to look for €20 million is probably a lot money. There is an unfairness in it. My understanding is there probably is a willingness at government level but not at official level to do something about this. Hopefully, the relevant officials, if not here, are listening in. It is deeply unfair and it should be looked at.

In the brief time the Minister has left, could he come back specifically on the tenant purchase scheme and the pre-2002 shared ownership scheme?

I will let the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donnell, come in on both. It is welcome to see Longford advancing with the affordable housing scheme. There were those who said that affordable housing, through the affordable housing fund, was restricted to certain counties; it is not. We have seen scheme come through in Mayo, Wexford and right the way across. I am delighted to hear the expressions of interest. I thank Deputy Flaherty for championing that as well. The issues that Longford has are relevant to other counties in the region. We might use that as an exemplar. I will hand over to the Minister of State.

On the tenant purchase scheme, the traditional model is now called the incremental purchase scheme, I think. The Deputy made a fair point. Perhaps we can get the officials to look at it based on age. If there is a young person coming in, ten years might be more reasonable than someone coming in, say, in their 40s. It is something we will look at.

On affordable housing, that is coming up in terms of the mortgages. We will get the officials to look at that again. Both points the Deputy raised are reasonable and require further empirical work by the Department. We will follow up on that.

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials. It is ironic that this meeting is on today and Uisce Éireann came back with an update to me at 12.23 p.m. It is amazing that when there is a housing committee meeting and the Ministers are in front of us, they can come back with an update for us.

(Interruptions).

We will return to County Limerick. I understand there is much work going on in Limerick city. Many houses are being built and I welcome that. However, I represent the county of Limerick. The Minister was in Limerick recently and we visited a couple of sites where he announced houses in different areas. We went to a hospital and showed that in hospital there were five existing new houses connected to an on-site sewer.

I will start with Askeaton. Some 38 years ago, one of the Minister’s own councillors asked to upgrade the scheme. He is now retiring; he is not running again. Yet, it still is not done. This is the update now from Uisce Éireann, from the Government, that it is hoping to look at an investment period of between 2025 and 2029. It was raised 38 years ago, and now it is going to be between 2025 and 2029 for this.

I have been on to the Minister about Oola and the infrastructure there. I am delighted that Uisce Éireann is looking at the infrastructure in Oola and by the end of 2024 it will have upgraded the system there. It will allow for a small bit of capacity – not a lot. I also welcome that, but this is 2024.

None of the projects the Minister named here are starting now. I cannot go to any developer in any of these areas at the moment on a promise and meet the timelines of the funding that the he gave, which I welcome to the areas that can do it, but to the areas that cannot, it is not worth the paper it is written on to us. No council, developer or landowner can actually do this in the timeline the Minister gave. I have Kilfinnane – 2025 to 2026 - which is outside the Minister’s remit again. All of these are all dated 2024, 2025 and up to 2030.

He said this is a housing for all programme. The LDA is city-based. It is not for rural areas or the towns and village - the 2030 ones in Limerick are. If we had infrastructure, they could actually produce. However, none of the infrastructure is there at the moment. All of the funding there is worthless to us. We cannot build because of the infrastructure.

We can build housing in Kilmallock and some in Croom. They are just after doing a survey recently in Croom. When they put in the new road, I asked them whether the capacity of the existing sewer system was big enough to take the expansion of Croom. They told me it was. I begged to differ when them and said it is not. Now they are coming back after they have got funding to say that they must do another survey on the sewer system in Croom. They say it can only take 300-odd people in the system. We have 46 houses in one development and 26 in another. We have a nursing home that is waiting to be built, 20 elderly-living houses, an extension of the hospital and a new school that was connected. Again, now they are coming back to say they will now make these developer-led and ask the developers to pay them to do a survey on a system they already said was adequate for the expansion of Croom.

With regard to the water supply for these new houses in Croom which I said I could deliver if the infrastructure was there, we have been advised here at the committee, on the record, that it would be started within three months. That was a year and a half ago. Now they have come back to say it will be started in the third quarter of the current year, 2023, and it will be completed some time in 2024. Again, give me the infrastructure and I will build for you. I will give all the prayers in the world and thank you for it but I will not give thanks for empty promises that are not being delivered on. I have gone back 38 years to a councillor who is now retiring. Now I am coming forward to dates going from 2024 to 2030, which we were promised would be invested in. This is housing for all. We can deliver it.

I recognise the system put up today for funding against the fees, and I appreciate that it will help somewhat. However, if I want to provide a large number of houses for the protection not only of the people who want to live there but the infrastructure will provide for businesses that will become sustainable. If I go to a bank tomorrow looking for a loan to improve my business in a locality, in any town or village in Ireland, the first thing I will be asked for is a five-year projection. I will be asked how many more people are coming in. I will say none, because the Government has not yet given us the funding to upgrade the sewerage system so we are four or five years away. The Government is killing rural Ireland by not investing in it.

We have a meeting in Kilbeheny on Friday night. Its sewerage system is caught between counties Cork and Limerick. Raw sewage is going straight into the waterworks. It is not included in Uisce Éireann’s list. Will the Minister give me a list of names of all those I have asked for, and when will he give the investment to local authorities in order that they can get the work done outside of Uisce Éireann? Uisce Éireann is not capable of doing the work. I want to know when the Minister will deliver for rural Ireland.

I thank the Deputy. He has outlined the deficiencies and without question, we have €6 billion in capital being invested through Uisce Éireann throughout the country. In Athlone, €114 million is planned. I will go straight to Limerick now. I brought forward the €50 million unserved villages fund. We asked each local authority to submit to us schemes where they own the land and have gone through Part 8 and we will tender and procure those works. When the works are done, we will hand it over to Uisce Éireann. I am awaiting a submission on that which I expect to have next week. I will make an announcement. I wanted to do that before Easter but we were not in a position to do so. That is another stream of delivery. I visited Shannonvale in County Cork and I was in Patrickswell with the Deputy. As he knows, we are seeing a fantastic new development happening there. It is only fair to acknowledge where things are happening. Croom and other places where there are pinch points are never going to be fixed over one or two years but we have a multi-annual capital plan with Uisce Éireann that it did not have previously. I will make announcements on what we call the unserved villages in the next week or so. I was expecting the submission last week but did not receive it. It is to the forefront of my mind, in particular Askeaton. That councillor has given sterling service over the years and championed this issue. There are 800 settlements throughout the country without any wastewater treatment to speak of at all. That shows the scale of the matter, and the Deputy will be aware of that. We are making progress and I expect to make announcements in the next week or so. I will keep the Deputy fully informed on that.

The next slot is myself. I thank the three Ministers for being present. I am enthused to hear so much discussion on cost rental. This is something we have wanted to promote for years. I recall talking about cost rental for many years in council chambers and seeing blank faces looking back at me asking what was cost rental. I still think we need to do far more on publicising and explaining what cost rental is. We are all aware that it has been a massive success where it has come in. I know that from my own experience in Wicklow where LDA cost-rental homes opened recently.

I wish to ask the Minister about costs in construction. We engage with the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI, which does some excellent work and excellent research. It produced a report in mid-2020. Those figures are somewhat dated now because we have the war in Ukraine and we have had inflation and many issues. It set out in the report how the breakdown in the costs of housing is split - approximately 48% hard costs such as materials and 52% soft costs, which includes levies, cost of finance, marketing and land. When we take measures such as those announced today to take away development contribution charges from developers, what type of research do we undertake to come up with that kind of decision to say, “This will result in this outcome”, as in a cost saving. We want to make housing affordable. We will produce the numbers but affordability is always going to be the big challenge.

That is a fair point. There are two things to say about cost rental. We want to scale it up. I welcome the discussion today. One of the measures on the cost-rental viability measure will help to do that and could be transformational. When visiting Delgany with the Cathaoirleach, and many other developments, we meet people who are getting into those homes. It makes a big difference for them and we can do it, without question.

Regarding the cost of construction and how to get costs out of construction, as Deputy Flaherty mentioned earlier, we build much better now than we did in 2008. It is like comparing apples with oranges. The quality of the homes being produced now is more expensive. Fundamentally they are more expensive because of what we are delivering by way of a product. We have to understand that first. I see the measure we brought forward and got agreement on in government today as an activation measure. We are looking at a quick measure to take out a cost that we can actually control. Someone mentioned VAT earlier. If we reduce VAT, we know exactly what amount of levy is being paid on a particular development. We know what the water connection cost is. It is more difficult on a VAT basis to do a rebate. I see that more as an activation measure. I cannot say that all of those levies, the development levy and connection charge, are going to be passed on. I know that they will not but I expect some of them will be. I also expect that this will ensure that developments that would not have started will now start. We can access them through the affordable housing fund.

We are making things more affordable through the first home scheme and, indeed, through cost rental as well. It gives me a large degree of hope when I look at the 25,000 first-time buyers who were able to buy homes last year. There were 25,000 first-time buyers drawdowns last year. Supply increased by 10,000 last year. Social housing was higher on new builds than it has been since 1975. We need to do much more and we know that. We have to respond to the external pressures around the funding environment and the inflationary environment in particular. One thing we can do is, and we are pushing on this, social housing. The LDA will do this also in regard to the use of more modern methods of construction. We have that programme of 1,500 social homes that we have targeted for delivery. This is not always cheaper but it is more efficient and better on the carbon and climate side as well.

I recall reading a book that was a 20-year review of the 1963 Act. It was done by Professor Berna Grist. She examined the Act 20 years after it was introduced. It was the first planning Act. One thing that jumped out at me was the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, as it was at the time, complaining about development contribution charges that far back. I am looking for assurance that this is a temporary activation measure and that we will assess it but we want it to be reintroduced because if it does not contribute to affordability, we do not want to take that measure. SCSI worked out that the levies, including water charges and development contribution, are approximately 4% of the associated costs. It would be considerable for somebody buying a house. Following on from that we will see sections 48 and 49 reintroduced back into the planning Bill then as well. That is good. I thank the Minister.

We had the SCSI before us recently. I am promoting the organisation a good deal today. Its representatives talked about the real costs of refurbishment in a good report that had many recommendations. One matter I raised was about what is called a "one stop shop" to try to streamline matters. The Minister will be familiar with this because his colleague, Deputy Cowen, introduced a Bill in, I believe, 2017 and I extracted quite a few parts from his Bill for my own Private Members' Business on the same matter. Are steps being taken to simplify that process around planning exemption and regulations without reducing the standards and then that certification process?

There appears to be quite a barrier to what we are trying to do in terms of vacant commercial-----

No question. The planning exemptions are pretty clear. The process is relatively simple. We have published the Part B draft fire regulations. That took a significant amount of work with stakeholders. A lot of this will allow us to unlock the space above shops in particular and older homes. That is out for public consultation now. I do not know whether the committee has looked at it specifically. There are some proposals in there that I believe will make a significant difference.

We are looking at what other jurisdictions do with older homes, in particular the issue of separate access and egress and the amelioration measures for fire safety, versus what we do because there is not a one-stop shop right now. Sometimes there can be a conflict between what the fire officer may say and what the planning exemption allows. In some instances that hinders the delivery.

I am given some hope by seeing the number of units that have come back in through repair and lease, which is not an easy process. I would expect those changes to be in place this year and they are needed. Many people are now able to buy vacant houses that were derelict and do them up to bring them back into use. Of the 1,600 applications that came in, approximately 600 have been approved. That has resulted in 600 families in 600 homes and we can do much more than that. The Part B regulations are out at the moment.

That is very positive. When will we get the result of that public consultation and some feedback?

It is a 12-week consultation and we are coming towards the end of it. We had considerable engagement with stakeholders. I do not expect any surprises to come back in from the public consultation.

That is positive. It is something that has been requested for a long time and it is good to see it coming to an end.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na hAirí. This series of meetings has been going on for some time. It is very much focused on the implementation of Housing for All. When we have had our political debates in this committee room and in the Chamber about the policy side of Housing for All, sometimes there is an attempt to pretend that something has changed in the past two years and nine months. There is often a denial that it is only one year and nine months since the Affordable Housing Act was signed into law. Someone who started building a house one year and nine months ago would most likely not be finished with the development now. In the context of implementing Housing for All, it is important to identify the legislative changes that have happened and when they happened. We also need to indicate that they are different from policies which operated in the past.

For example, prior to Housing for All it was not possible to buy a local authority affordable purchase home. There was no legislative basis to buy a home in a private development with State assistance through the first home scheme; that just was not there. There was no legislative basis to have a long-term State-backed mortgage with a defined interest rate. The Rebuilding Ireland home loan was approved then with the local authority home loan. It was not possible to buy a home in a development that was exclusively owner-occupied. The Government introduced legislation to protect home ownership and owner occupation. It was not possible to get a direct State grant of up to €50,000 - now €70,000 - to refurbish a home. It was not possible to get a direct State grant build to build a new home on a vacant site. It was not possible to rent an affordable cost-rental home. It was not possible to rent a private home in an RPZ where it was capped at 2%. It was not possible to be eligible for a social housing home up to €40,000 because we increased the income limits and that also increased the eligibility for HAP. It was not possible to get a €500 rent tax credit prior to the previous budget. It was not possible for a pensioner to buy a social home through the tenant purchase scheme. It was not possible to avail of the State schemes under the fresh start principle, which is no small feat. For people who are either separated or have been through insolvency the fresh start principle was a new principle under Housing for All and it is having a real impact.

To pretend that Housing for all Has not made an impact is to deny reality. It is not appropriate to pretend that it was possible to implement it all in one year and nine months when actually the lead Opposition party indicated it might take two terms to solve some of these issues. Yet after one year and nine months there are already accusations that Housing for All needs to be torn up. It is very clear that the policy element is still being debated. I am focused on the implementation. Representatives from a large number of local authorities - it was a sample - appeared before the committee. All of them said they felt they had full funding to deliver public housing on public lands. They indicated that based on the current projections they could run out of land and would need a fund to access new land. That will be covered in our report and the Minister should examine it.

The AHBs pointed out that based on their gearing, there could be issues for their ability to borrow. We need to look at that. They were looking to move towards a grant aid system rather than a borrow system. My instinct is that that would effectively be another version of local authority housing in which case we should get the local authorities to deliver more. If there is more capacity there, I have no opposition to that.

The other issue that came up - I am cherry-picking between representatives of different local authorities and different AHBs who spoke - was that there was not great ambition in the room for any of the AHBs regarding the cost-rental model. That is not acceptable. We need the AHBs to be involved in cost rental. The Cathaoirleach is right in saying that is a key platform to deliver affordable rental. The local authorities were very reliant on the AHBs to deliver the cost rental. While the LDA is one element of that, we have much more work to do on implementing cost rental and we need to focus on that area.

With particular sites it is often very tricky to see who has responsibility for delivering them. Last week I raised a number of sites with Ms Stapleton. I accept that implementation is messy and involves going back and forth between different local authorities, AHBs and the Department. There is insufficient transparency. To improve the transparency on the implementation of Housing for All, it would help to have a website where I can see all the local authority public housing sites and the AHB sites in my area, showing their status and who is responsible for them. My constituency has 20 public housing sites for public housing on public land. They are mostly being developed by Dublin City Council and the AHBs. It is clear that things have changed. It is clear that there is no evidence of developer-led development. It is clear that the local authorities are back in the game of building. I can outline specific problems on each site where I would like things to move faster. We should have some more transparency. I do not want to be blaming my local authority and asking why it is not doing this or why a particular site is not moving. I just want access to more information on what local authorities are doing which would be very useful.

We need to give people more options on senior citizen housing. We need to consider accessing capital funding for older person accommodation. This is not independent senior citizens, as we call it in Dublin city. This is where people live not in a nursing home environment but one that feels very like a nursing home environment without that technical nursing element; it is in supported accommodation. They cannot access capital funding from the HSE because it claims it is housing provision. They cannot access capital funding from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage because it is not housing for people coming off local authority waiting lists. There is scope for us to do more. I would like to hear the Minister's views on that.

The Deputy mentioned that last point to me earlier in the week. We will look at that. We have had models of funding, for example, with the refuges that we have worked on. We have changed our funding model to make sure we are funding the whole scheme, including ancillary rooms etc., which would not have been funded previously through the capital assistance scheme, CAS, but the HSE then steps in with the services and we are doing the same with some others. I will definitely look at that. I know the Deputy gave me a specific example of an AHB that raised it. I will not mention it on the record today, but he can take it that we will look at it.

We are looking at the gearing piece. Changes have been made to the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, already and they have been welcomed by the AHB sector. We are looking at some matters with regard to the cost-rental equity loan, CREL. We still need an element of a loan as well, because the State needs to be involved in it. If one was just a grant, what control would we have over what is being developed? Our AHB partners are important on delivery and some of them are exceptionally good in that regard. We are engaging with them on it. We have the land acquisition fund. I reiterate it is in place now. There is €125 million in it and we will add to that if need be. It is being managed by the Housing Agency for the purchase of land for social and affordable housing. That is up and running and we are open for business.

I am glad the Deputy mentioned the fresh start principle; he is the only one who has. It is an important principle that transcends all housing policy. Someone who is divorced or legally separated and does not own a property or has gone through personal insolvency should get a fresh start and have access to the schemes we have. Fortunately, under Housing for All they have access to all the housing-based schemes. That is a good thing and we need to let more people know about it.

I agree with the Minister on the importance of the fresh start principle. I sent him a copy of an email, having blocked out the names, received by my office about a month and a half ago from a lady who is separated and divorced and who, because of the change in rules from 20% to 10% and the changes to implement fresh start via the shared equity scheme, is now going to be moving into a property in June. This will get her out of the rental sector and into a secure property with her two children, one of whom has a disability. That is evidence the schemes we have implemented here are having a positive impact on the ground and anyone who says otherwise is the one who is deluded.

The cost-rental threshold has been mentioned. We had a €5,000 increase in the social housing threshold in January, but that 5,000 was not then reflected on the ceiling for the cost rental to allow it go up by a corresponding amount. That should happen without delay. On the changes we are going to implement with the CREL, I am worried there is a bit of a stagnation effect at the moment with the AHBs. They are waiting for changes to be made in that space. There is a scheme of 96 units the developer is ready to go on and I am worried there are delays because changes are anticipated. I ask the Minister to take that away.

We have introduced a targeted leasing scheme of an additional 1,000 units over 2023 and 2024 to target one-bedroom and two-bedroom properties in city centre locations to try to prevent people from going into homelessness. It is a really positive measure. All the local authority CEOs and directors of service who were before us were, to a person, in favour of the leasing that was there because it was having a positive impact on the delivery of social homes. I have said countless times nobody can say it is not better to have a family in a long-term lease property of 25 years than to have them in a hotel room tonight. Nobody can justify the converse. I therefore ask that the 1,000 unit targeted leasing scheme be looked at with a view to increasing it. It could be 1,000 additional units delivered and 1,000 units in 2024, because they are the types of units that are readily available in urban locations that are preventing people going into homelessness. I ask the Minister to consider that.

I asked the local authorities why they are not using the single-stage approval process versus the four-stage one. The answer was simple, namely the financial risk there. If a CEO or financial officer in a local authority goes through the four-stage approval process and on to tender at the end of that, the Department will underwrite all the costs of that development. However, if an authority goes through the single-stage approval process, submits an estimate of costs for the development, goes out to tender and has the costs end up higher than that, then it is on the hook for that. Nobody can say that if a local authority goes through the design process and out to the market in a transparent and open tendering process, that should not be just accepted by the Department. Last week, Ms Stapleton committed to issuing a circular to the local authorities in that space to say if the authority carried out an open process and followed the design manual the Department would underwrite those costs. I suggest to the Minister that would be a really important thing to have happen without delay. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, heard the director of services down in Waterford two weeks ago replying a simple "Yes" when asked whether he would use the single-stage approval process if there was no financial risk.

Ms Stapleton dealt with this last week, but I want to seek the single-stage process used more. I was saying it when I was sitting in committee. It is being used more than it was, but not enough.

We have given an assurance we will pay the tender price and the message needs to be strengthened.

Will the Department issue it by circular?

We will. I have no issue with doing that and we will do it. The other thing is if one uses the design manual the four-stage process is basically a three-stage one. Within the Department and with our partners we work to get people in the room together and picking up the phone instead of writing to each other. Some of the issues that arise between a local authority and the Department, or indeed the Housing Agency's assessments, can be dealt with swiftly. We need to improve that. This does not relate to the single-stage process, but we need to ensure we are getting value for money too. Some on the Opposition side have said I should throw out the public spending code. The Senator is not saying that, but it is a balance and we must get it right. If we got that wrong, the committee would rightly be dragging me or the Ministers of State in and asking why we allowed it to be done and outlining how a body has overspent by a multiple of what was originally budgeted for. We have a good pipeline on the social housing side. Between build, design and the like there are about 19,000 in process. That is a significant amount. We will pursue single-stage approval. I want to see it used more. Some local authorities have dipped their toes in the water. There was a concern with legacy issues that happened previously and that was one of the issues around affordable housing as well, but we have given assurances in that regard too.

What of targeted leasing?

We have 1,000 units identified between this year and next. As the Senator knows, we still have leasing targets with Housing for All. We want to build more that we own. The 1,000 units we got approval for are targeted at our homeless cohort and preventing people from becoming homeless in ones and twos. About 500 to 600 of those have been delivered and the remainder will be delivered next year. On further expansion, earlier in the week I was discussing maybe looking for a further call in that regard with the team. However, I do not want it to replace the builds and I am aware the Senator does not either.

We have had many discussions in the Dáil on leasing and value for money. I agree with the Senator that what we want is people in a safe and secure home rather than a hotel. Fortunately, the build numbers are coming up substantially. Leasing plays a role.

On evictions, the Minister knows I totally disagree with the decision to lift the moratorium.

I have just got a text from a family who have the bailiffs coming on Tuesday. Both parents are working and they have two kids. The woman works in an insurance company. If she has to go into hostel accommodation, she will also lose her job. Please tell me what I am supposed to do or what they are supposed to do. We should immediately instruct all local authorities to take a can-do attitude when it comes to trying to prevent people being made homeless. In other words, they should not take the attitude that there is no scheme in place and, therefore, there is nothing they can do. What I get all the time from them is that someone does not fit into this scheme or that scheme and there is nothing the local authority can do. There has to be a can-do attitude, not the "My computer says 'No'" attitude that is widespread. That is the first thing I want to ask the Minister.

Second, it is very misguided to waive the development levies. I remind the Minister that the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, was operated according to the same principle, in other words, we give these guys millions of euro for infrastructure and we will get affordable housing in return. When that scheme was first introduced the condition was that we would get 40% back in affordable housing. That condition was mysteriously dropped within about three or four weeks. As a result, we did not know how much affordable housing we were to get or what affordable would mean. What this means in Cherrywood, for example, the biggest residential development in the country, is that we have no idea how much we are getting from the LIHAF funding. We have no idea how much affordable housing we will get and how much it will cost. This is the biggest residential development in the country where the infrastructure was paid for by the public, yet the developers are making a fortune and the property being delivered is costing a fortune. I ask the Minister to seriously think about that. Is this the way forward? There is not even any conditionality linked to the waiving of these development fees, so any idea that this measure will bring down price is fantasy. It is not going down to bring down price. I ask the Minister to consider that. I am also interested in his response.

Regarding affordable and cost rental, I will give the Minister one example. I have written to him about this case and raised it about 20 times. It relates to a woman who, interestingly, works with vulnerable children in Tusla. She was in emergency accommodation for four years with her child, who was eight when they went into emergency accommodation and is now 12. Her mental health is on the floor. The computer says "No" to her on everything. She was knocked off the housing list because her income went over the threshold. The Minister then raised the threshold and I said we needed a look-back period.

Yes, and we gave one.

Yes, but the woman in question was three days outside the look-back. I have written to the Minister about that as well. It is unbelievable. Four years on, this woman, who is working and contributing to Irish society, is stuck in emergency accommodation. I then said that maybe cost-rental housing would be an option but cost rental is a flipping lottery. Somebody who has been four years in emergency accommodation with her child is in a lottery, that is if she can even get information about where the affordable or cost-rental housing is.

With that in mind, I want to ask the Minister another question. Can we have a one-stop shop portal that is widely advertised in order that everybody who is in this category knows exactly where to go to find out exactly what is available? I also ask that people who have been in circumstances such as those I have described - homeless forever and ever - are not simply put in the same category as everyone else, in a lottery, particularly when they have been knocked off a housing list. This woman was on the housing list for eight years. She will not get those years back after being four years homeless because she is three days outside the flipping look-back. She is now in the same situation as everybody else. We can all imagine how this woman and her child feel. I ask the Minister to seriously consider that.

On the-----

The Deputy has one minute if he wants responses.

Okay. On leasing, our colleague said that leasing is better than being in emergency accommodation. That is true, but I cannot for the life of me understand, when completed new developments are on the market, why our local authorities, including mine recently, end up leasing rather than buying them, when we have all this money available. It is self-evidently better value for the public and gives long-term security for the tenants when the local authorities buy those developments. We should be buying a lot of them because it is a one-off investment and every single one that is bought is money saved in the long run in terms of HAP and RAS. Why would we do leasing when we can do purchase? Will the Government ramp up the purchasing of completed new developments to get a saving of more than 10% on a much bigger scale than is currently the case? That would give some quick gains.

The Deputy has raised a number of-----

The Minister has to respond, by right. Deputy Boyd Barrett has ten seconds left.

I will ask the Deputy about the person who has missed the three-day look-back. I have not seen that correspondence and I ask the Deputy to get it to me directly.

The Deputy asked for a look-back and I brought one in, which was fair. Nobody had done that before, by the way. The purchase for tenants in situ has ramped up. The reason we were phasing out leasing, and I answered Senator Cummins on that, is that we have targeted leasing now because we are building more social homes. We have shown in Housing for All how we are phasing out leasing into the future but we will use it as a mechanism to keep people out of homelessness. Where local authorities can enter into advance purchase arrangements for both affordable and social housing, they are encouraged to do so. I know in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, there is a particular pressure point as well because of the lack of availability of land and the cost of land and property in that area. However, that does not negate or prevent problems that have been occurring everywhere else across the country from appearing also in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. We also have the affordable housing fund in place and it is making a difference.

The development levy piece is about activation. We need more stock across the board. We need more supply. Supply increased by 10,000 in one year, from 20,000 to 30,000 units. We want to go further on that and I make no excuse for using any weapon in the armoury in an effort to ramp up delivery of private, social and affordable housing.

I ask the Deputy to send to me directly details of the case he raised.

I have to move on. I ask members to leave the Minister time to answer, if they want an answer.

I will take the next slot. The Affordable Housing Act 2021, which the Government introduced, includes a small line about community-led housing. I do not know if any work has been done in that area, which I raised last week with the officials. While it is probably a small strand of housing that will deliver only 20, 30 or 40 houses here and there, it is one that we should consider and I ask the Minister to do so. I have met with a group of self-organised architects who are experienced, competent and know what they are talking about. They are using models that are in existence in other jurisdictions. Community-led housing could be helpful in the delivery and every house we deliver is important. I ask the Minister to consider that.

Funding was announced today to assist and move along developments where there is an affordability gap. This is where developers are looking at sites and deciding not to build housing because they will not be able to sell it. These sites will sit there forever and will be no good to anybody. Meanwhile, the continual urban sprawl, the three-bedroom semi-detached houses on the greenfield sites, are deliverable, affordable and buyable but they completely contradict what we are trying to do on climate and transport. I see this intervention not just as a housing intervention or a supply of homes but as an incredibly important intervention in our climate target challenges as well. We cannot continue to expand. We must have denser living and 15-minute cities and ten-minute towns, and we have to end the long commute with no transport links. I support this measure. People should consider it. I know many people will say this is money for developers. In a way it is but, as the Minister said, the quality of housing being built at the moment cannot be compared to what was built in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. The quality of the build is incomparable in terms of the materials used and the working conditions for those working on the sites. Those factors have added to the cost of it as well.

On Croí Cónaithe towns, has the Minister considered looking at a tiered grant system? This issue was raised with us. An example was given of a property in rural Limerick that was quite cheap to purchase. The cost of doing it up was quite expensive but the value at the end of it made it unviable.

The property that was taken in was in an area where it was expensive to purchase. The amount of money that went into it and what one came out with at the end made it a viable product. Has any consideration been given to Croí Cónaithe on tiered level?

We wish to keep the scheme simple.

The other option is to tag it to house values or purchase prices and there are various different clawbacks. The reason it has been successful so far is because it is simple. Does the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, wish to add to that?

The Minister stole my line. It has to be kept simple.

It does, but I ask the Minister of State to let me make a point before he answers. People have to borrow, and the banks and lending institutions wish to know that they are not lending to somebody who will end up with a shell without a roof, that is, a dream project that did not work out. They also wish to know that the asset they are lending against will be worth money at the end and they will be covered.

It is an activation measure. For it to be activated quickly, it must be relatively easy to implement. The measure is universal. We have had 1,600 applications so far and 600 of them have been approved. We will keep it under advisement, but the scheme now is relatively straightforward to understand. If the property is vacant for more than two years and was built pre-2007, the applicant can get €50,000. If the property is deemed derelict - it is on the derelict sites register or an argument is put to the local authority that it is derelict - the applicant will get €70,000. On top of that, the applicant can get up to €27,000 from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. This is about towns and villages. For a scheme to really work, it must be relatively easy to understand. This scheme is.

With regard to compact urban growth in particular, if one looks at cost rental, for argument's sake, one thing Deputy Gould never mentions is the cost-rental scheme right in the middle of Cork city at Lancaster Gate, which is a fantastic development. Unfortunately, it is the only city-centre cost rental that is tenanted at present. We have many good developments around Delgany, in Balbriggan in my own area and in Kildare, which are great. However, I wish to see more densified developments within our cities. We have an opportunity to do that through the viability measures. The Chairperson is 100% right in saying that. Through the viability measures, about which some people jumped up and down today without even reading them, we have an opportunity to get those developments activated, including the waiving of the development levy and the water connection fee. Savings can be up to €20,000 per apartment based in densified developments. It is a significant saving which Deputy O'Donoghue mentioned earlier on. I expect the main Opposition party and others to tell the individual who is building his or her own house, in the village in County Cork or in the village in County Longford, that they want that individual to pay the development levy and the water fee over the next year and to tell him or her not to apply for the waiver. This is a real saving for real people.

It is important to see the issue in the overall framework, where the challenge is in having high-density urban living. It is expensive to do. It is a climate action, and not just a housing action.

I apologise. I have to depart. I think the discussion is coming to a conclusion. I thank the members for their consideration.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, for his attendance. We do not have much longer to go and we will continue with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien.

The Minister will be left on his own with the big stuff. He is on the county team. They are jumping ship.

I will stay until midnight, if the Senator wishes.

Does the Minister need me to stay? I do not think so.

Is féidir leis an Aire Stáit leanúint ar aghaidh.

I like the Minister's confidence.

The Minister has lost some of them already.

I will ask the Minister just the one question, because he is without his Ministers of State on the flank. Following on from what Deputy McAuliffe was asking about earlier, the target in Housing for All last year was 4,100 affordable homes. It was not met. Only 1,757 homes were delivered and out of that, only 323 were affordable purchase homes. In two thirds of local authority areas, there was zero cost-rental delivery or affordable purchase by either local authorities or AHBs. Many of those local authorities around the country include local authorities in key urban areas. There is a very high housing demand in Dublin City Council, Galway City Council and Limerick City and County Council. There was no affordable purchase or cost-rental delivery in two thirds of local authority areas. What is the Minister doing, in 2023, to get those two thirds of local authority areas with no delivery in 2022 to deliver on cost-rental and affordable purchase? What measures are being taken in those more challenging city areas to get the local authorities and AHBs delivering?

It is a very good point. We wish to encourage local authorities and AHBs to do so. There are affordable purchase schemes approved in 15 local authorities. Deputy Flaherty mentioned earlier that we have expressions of interest going out for a scheme in Longford. We have schemes in Mayo and other areas. It is increasing. This is a new ask of a local authorities. I want, as best as possible, for all of our local authorities to have affordable offers. One has to make the maths work in some instances. A pilot scheme is being developed in Longford. It might not necessarily be an affordability issue, but it is a viability issue because one can buy a home in a certain county for less than one could build a home. We have to see whether there is an interest in someone engaging in an affordable scheme in that instance. The issue that develops in that county - not that it is an issue - is that there are no new homes for individual purchase. It would all be one tenure. We have to work that through, but we have 42 or 43 schemes over 15 counties at present. We want that to increase further.

There are opportunities in our cities. In Dublin City Council, for argument's sake, there are schemes under assessment for Dublin City Council. We have opportunities through Project Tosaigh and the LDA to deliver some cost-rental homes at scale in our cities. That is the second round of Project Tosaigh. That is why we will need the cost-rental viability measure. I have not been shown a better way of doing that. If I am shown a better way, I would be open to looking at it. We also need further capitalisation of the LDA, because I would like to be looking back at the end of this year and at the very least saying that we have approvals in most local authority areas. We have a good pipeline in a number of them. It has taken a while.

On the affordable side, we have first-home scheme approvals in 24 of the 26 counties in the country and the eligibility is done. We have affordable schemes in County Limerick. We have approved two of them. We hope to have another one. There will be substantial affordable housing in Kilmallock, in Deputy O'Donoghue's area. Some 73% of the homes there in a really good scheme are either using the first-home scheme and-or the help-to-buy grant. It is a great scheme. It is the first private scheme there in 35 years, if I am right in saying so.

Are there enough measures in place to ensure there will be enough delivery by local authorities and AHBs on cost rental and affordable purchase? Is the Minister confident we will get all these local authorities, or the vast majority of them, delivering cost-rental and affordable purchase homes this year?

Let us just stick with local authorities on the cost-rental side of things. We need more local authorities doing cost rental directly. They can borrow at lower rates through the Housing Finance Agency, HFA, and it makes the schemes more viable.

What do we need to do to get local authorities to do so?

They need to be encouraged. We have changed the affordable housing fund to allow increased subvention from our Department within that. Tomorrow, for argument's sake, South Dublin County Council will be turning the sod on 134 cost-rental units. That is the first time South Dublin County Council has done that directly. Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council will be doing direct schemes as well. It is about scaling them up to do it. We need to make changes to the cost-rental equity loan, CREL, for further delivery, but that should not stop people bringing developments forward, because those changes will happen. With regard to the structure, we have increased CREL to 45% from 30% and we have allowed upfront costs.

Deputy McAuliffe touched on the point that some of the local authorities seem to be reluctant to do this. The Minister is almost touching on it by saying we need to encourage local authorities to do it. I think we are all agreed that there needs to be more involvement by local authorities in this. What can the Minister do and what will he do to encourage them to put a fire under them?

Some have been quicker out of the blocks than others. They are our colleagues and we need to encourage them. They are mandated through the Housing for All plan to deliver. One thing we have done is we have made and published our housing plan for each local authority. The housing need and demand assessments, HNDAs, are there. People can see the plan. It covers local authorities and AHBs within that sector. To be fair to local authorities, this is new to some of them. Some local authorities have not done it before and others have not done it in years. Counties Waterford and Cork have moved very well on affordable purchase. Fingal is moving on it. I would like to see other local authorities do so. County Kildare is also doing well.

We are scaling it up. I absolutely get that 1,800 homes was below the target of 4,100 affordable homes but I will stand over the policy by saying that there was a good footprint established. The year before, there had been 65. If you go back 14 years, there were zero in each of those years. It is about building up capacity and scale. I meet the chief executives of local authorities all of the time. I have housing summits with the housing directors regularly. We work with them and get their feedback as to what else they need to enable them to do these things. Sometimes that is land, which was mentioned earlier on. We now have the land fund in place and will buy the land for them.

There are issues with that for some local authorities, however.

Okay. I can talk to the Deputy about that.

Earlier on, I said that just under 1,400 affordable houses were delivered. The Minister is correct; 1,800 of the 4,100 target were delivered. I just wished to correct the record on that. On that issue, the Minister mentioned Lancaster Gate in Cork, which has been a very successful cost-rental scheme. I have met people who live there. I give credit where credit is due and that is a very good scheme. However, there is still a problem. We had a scheme in Glanmire. Some 800 people applied for 32 cost-rental homes. That was in Glanmire in Cork. There was another scheme of 25 cost-rental units in Balbriggan and 1,000 families applied. It is a matter of scale.

Deputy McAuliffe made a point earlier. He said it is not accurate for people to say that nothing has changed. I am not saying nothing has changed. What I am saying is that things are much worse since Deputy Darragh O'Brien became Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. That is not a personal attack but the facts are that house prices are the highest ever, rents are the highest ever and the number of people homeless is at its highest ever. I am not saying the Minister is not working. He is developing different schemes such as the tenant in situ scheme, cost-rental schemes and affordable housing schemes. However, so few units are being delivered that we are actually in a worse position now.

Looking at dereliction, I put in a parliamentary question and have the response printed out here. There are 1,000 sites on the derelict sites register. Levies were imposed in respect of only 407 of these. There was no levy on just under 600 of them last year. Levies of €5.2 million were imposed but only €1 million was collected. The total outstanding in respect of the derelict sites levy is now €14.7 million. Only 75 sites of 1,000 were subject to a compulsory purchase order, CPO. Officials from the Department who are here today were in last week and I asked them about that. They are now telling me that there are five staff in the derelict sites unit in the Department. What is their role in working with local authorities? All local authorities bar one now have a vacant homes officer. Do they also cover dereliction? I am looking at these figures and it is a crime. If the Minister does not believe me, I advise him to do a Google search for "dereliction on North Main Street, Cork". It is unbelievable how people were allowed to speculate on land and allow property to collapse in the middle of cities. How many people are on the derelict sites team in the Department? What is their role? Do the vacant homes officers in each local authority also deal with dereliction? What consequences will the Minister introduce for those who own derelict properties and who speculate on them for years and, in some cases, decades? They are destroying towns, villages, cities and communities.

I will mention a couple of things. I do not agree with a lot of what Deputy Gould has said but that will not surprise him at all. Looking at the numbers, output has increased by 10,000 in a year and the number of social housing units built is the highest since 1975. I put it to Deputy Gould that it would probably be higher if his party colleagues did not object to housing all over the country.

With regard to Croí Cónaithe, in fairness to the Deputy, he has broken party ranks on the scheme. He has actually asked me about extending it on a number of occasions and has brought forward cases where people have not got the grant or grant approval while his colleague who was sitting here earlier on and his party would abolish the Croí Cónaithe vacancy grant.

We would change it.

We would change it.

Tá brón orm. Sinn Féin said it would abolish it. I remember one throwaway remark its party spokesperson made one day. He said it was not enough. I asked him what would be enough and whether €50,000 or €70,000 would be enough for a vacant home grant. I take it that, if someone comes into Deputy Gould's constituency office in Cork city and says that he or she would love to buy a building down the road and get a grant, he does not advise them on how to get a Croí Cónaithe grant and that, if a first-time buyer comes in and asks him if he knows anything about that first home scheme, through which 1,400 people have already bought their own homes, Deputy Gould does not advise him or her about that.

What about the dereliction? I asked the Minister four questions.

I did not interrupt Deputy Gould.

I asked the Minister four questions. I have only a minute left. Will the Minister answer one of my questions? I will pose another question to him now? My time is running out.

Let me speak to something positive.

May I give the Minister a constructive solution?

Go on. It would be the first.

Last year, the Minister's Department only funded 85 voids. These are the local authority houses that are boarded up in every local authority area. There are more than 500 in Cork. Why does the Minister not fund the local authorities? I come from an area where there is social housing. Does the Minister know the damage that is done by the presence of boarded-up houses? It results in gangs, antisocial behaviour and dumping. It has a negative effect on a community to see houses left to go to rack and ruin. On the other side, people who are looking for houses are looking at these properties. I am putting forward a solution here that I put to the Minister's Department last week. Will the Minister let local authorities do the work and get the houses rented out within weeks? In the Cork City Council area, it takes 76 weeks to get a house turned around. Some are left idle for years. Will the Minister cut the red tape and the bureaucracy and tell the local authorities to get people into these houses now?

I will be very brief but I will first say that I did not mean to raise the Deputy's ire. However, Cork City Council delivered 517 new-build homes last year. That is a significant number.

However, some 1,000 families joined the list.

Will Deputy Gould stop for a second?

These are the facts.

I sat here and listened to Deputy Gould and sometimes it was not easy to do so. I am just trying to give him some facts. He should give his local authority in Cork city some credit for the work it does.

The Deputy has not even acknowledged that the council built 517 new social homes last year. It purchased a further 45 while the approved housing bodies purchased a further 11. That is not even including Part V leasing. There were hundreds of homes provided in the Cork City Council area last year. Including the housing assistance payment, 1,295 homes were provided. The figure on the new-build side is significant.

With regard to voids, I agree with the Deputy. We have funded the voids programme. Since I took over as Minister, we have brought approximately 8,300 void homes back into use. I deal with the Deputy's colleagues in Cork and, as I have said to him before, if there are specific bundles of older homes, the local authority should make a submission to my Department. Last year, I targeted local authorities and 2,273 voids. I am responsible for the whole country, not just Cork city. There were 2,273 voids and 2,307 were returned to active use. We have targeted 2,300 this year. We are not doing badly. There are improvements. It is certainly not worse than it was five or ten years ago. I reject that.

I thank colleagues for reminding me of the time. I took my eye off the clock for a minute. However, we did start a little late so I am okay to go beyond 6 p.m. I call Deputy McAuliffe.

I will go back to the implementation of Housing for All. As I have said, it is not the officials in Dublin City Council or in the Minister's Department who will ultimately be held to account by the public for this, but the Minister, me and many others. While I am not being adversarial with officials, that is why I want to try to get more transparency about the decisions that are made. I will talk about a site in Berryfield in Finglas. A planning application for six three-bedroom homes on that site was lodged two years ago. Planning permission for the site had been approved. I do not know who requested that it be changed but the approved housing body felt the need to submit a new application for 18 one- and two-bedroom homes. When it submitted that application, Dublin City Council, as the planning authority, rejected it. Now, more than two years later, there is a live planning application for six three-bedroom homes on a site in Berryfield. Can we just go ahead and build those six three-bedroom homes?

There is a live planning application and an AHB ready to build. We should not be putting in a third application. This is an example, though, of how things sometimes slip between the cracks. I give this as an example, and I will be happy to get a response on it.

The reason I raised this point is that it is going to be in our report. Many local authorities seemed to suggest that there was only funding of €5,000 for a void. Later in the discussion, they also admitted there was further funding. There almost seemed to be, though, a strategic withholding of some units in respect of more or less funding. I would prefer a response in writing so it does not eat into my time too much. There will be, however, a recommendation or commentary in the report that local authorities said there was only €5,000 in funding. If the Minister has a different view, I encourage him to submit that to the committee.

Turning to the tenant in situ scheme, there was some discussion about the eviction ban. I am clear when people come into my clinic that I want to give them a permanent solution and not six or nine months of more worry. The tenant in situ scheme is very clearly a long-term, positive and permanent solution for people. It removes the reliance on HAP. Many people on this side of the House have been asking Governments to stop being reliant on HAP. The tenant in situ scheme takes people out of the HAP network, gives them a permanent social home and, regardless of their place on the housing list, secures them. This is now a national scheme that has happened during the time of the eviction ban, when many people say nothing happened.

I still think that Deputy Boyd Barrett is not wrong. I have found myself saying this twice today, and I am very worried. The Deputy, however, is not wrong in this regard. There still can be places where there is not a specific reference to or access to a scheme. Rather than having local authorities put people into emergency accommodation, which costs €70,000 annually, a way should be found to secure properties rather than not doing so. I think this is also the view of the Minister.

Regarding a tenant in situ-type scheme for people earning above the income limits, which would be like a cost-rental backstop, I would like to know where we are with this initiative. I also wonder where we are with giving people the opportunity to purchase properties as well.

I will interrupt at this point. I will let Deputy O'Donoghue and Senator Boyhan ask their questions as well because I did not realise the Minister has to leave at 6 p.m. We will leave the last five minutes for the Minister to answer. I call Deputy O'Donoghue.

Returning to Killmallock, it is a town with buildings from the 14th century and there are conservation orders on many of the properties. In other countries, conservation orders mean keeping the front façade and allowing the rest to be modernised. One business owner has contacted me to say he is seeking to do up an existing premises to allow him to provide two apartments over it. The conservation officers have said "No", and that he must apply for planning permission to do this, which will take 12 months. I looked at the building the other day. I have been in construction all my life and this building should be considered under section 57 for repair straightaway because there are faults in it. Conservation is stopping this work, when two more people could be housed in Killmallock. The person who owns this shop also has one in Cork. He is in a position there to build a unit at the back of his shop that will accommodate his 20 staff members and assure the viability of his business. Again, under the laws at the moment, if this person goes to build these units he will have to provide some of them for social and affordable housing. From a security perspective, that is not viable where they are. He wants these units for staff only. These people are currently putting pressure on the rental market and on the housing market, in a context where they could be housed.

I know we have time constraints, but where businesspeople can provide accommodation, they should be allowed to do so. Equally, work on existing buildings should not be held up for two or three years in the planning process when we could house more people, keep the community in place and ensure those businesses remain open.

I call Senator Boyhan,

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming in. It has been a meaningful engagement. To touch on one or two issues, starting with the An Bord Pleanála backlog, the Business Post broke that story last Sunday. It is a substantial backlog. There is some suggestion that up to 27,000 units are included. Clearly, this is an issue regarding the relevant development plans at the time of application and decision, but we do have an issue in this regard. A substantial number of student accommodation units are included, as well as other housing. Equally, we cannot water down or undermine the planning process or the integrity of city and county development plans. There is, however, a concern in this regard. The Minister might send us a briefing memo or note concerning what his thinking is or might be on this issue. The Central Mental Hospital site in Dundrum is one of the finest we have, after the Cherrywood special development zone, SDZ, site, and this is caught up in this backlog as well. There is clearly great potential for that site.

The Minister is a Deputy from Dublin and he will be familiar with Fingal. As he knows, we have four local authorities in Dublin. I am hearing reports concerning the homeless HAP, which is a slightly enhanced payment that he will be familiar with as well, regarding people going to Fingal and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and being told that they need to go to the homeless initiative in Dublin city. They are not getting a warm, empathetic and supportive response and we must examine this. The Minister will not have the detail but I ask him to look into this matter. I am happy, though, to provide more detail. Each of the four local authorities in the Dublin area should be able to respond in this regard locally and connect. A couple came to me in tears last week because they had been told they had to go into the city. It is not a nice situation for people to be in and I think we should have a conversation with officials in the four Dublin local authorities to see if we can deal with this matter locally.

Moving to the rural housing guidelines, I could paint the walls with the number of letters concerning rural housing guidelines from successive Ministers with responsibility for housing. The Minister will be very familiar with the issues in play in this regard. It is time to address this issue. Tomorrow, we will have young farmers outside our gate protesting about several issues. One of them is the rural housing guidelines and the sons and daughters of farmers not being able to build houses. By golly, they would love to build them this year, within the next 12 months, because under the Minister's new arrangements, there will be no levies charged for their one-off houses. These people cannot, though, get planning permission for these one-off houses. It is now timely, therefore, if it was ever important, to address this aspect. I would like to think this will be done in the next week or two. I was told months ago that this was going to be done next week. We need the housing guidelines for rural communities. It is imperative, particularly in light of this window of opportunity the Minister has presented for one-off houses today. I thank him.

The Minister has the last two minutes to try to answer as many of those questions as possible.

I will write to the committee with an update on An Bord Pleanála. This will be useful and of interest to the members. We have 15 board members in place now, which is the highest number ever. They are working through the backlog. Even comparing the number of staff in the organisation now to the number there in 2021, it will be seen that we have had an increase of approximately 60% in the resourcing of the board. It is not perfect and there were many issues there last year. I will write to the committee, however, and provide a breakdown.

Regarding the question regarding Berryfield, there is back-and-forth communication between the DCC and the AHB, particularly concerning the number of one-bedroom units in that development. I will, though, write to the Deputy about the specific issue and perhaps Ms Stapleton and the team can talk to him about it as well.

With respect, we just need them built.

I know that, but there was an issue with open space and also with the mix of units. It was quite a dense development, which I think is good, but there is a desire to row back from that now. Some discussion is under way in this regard. I agree with the Deputy. I want to see these units built and I will provide him with an update.

Deputy O'Donoghue raised an issue that we are examining, which is preservation orders here compared with our nearest neighbour, where there are four categories. I have worked with the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland on this issue as well. If we were to look at parts of London, perhaps for a different reason, façades have been kept but it has been possible to do more in the background, if buildings are not of great historical importance. I know there are no residents in the General Post Office, GPO, but we could take another building which would be a better example and would have the same type of preservation, although it is a national monument, so perhaps not. We could use another unit, however, as an example in this regard. We are looking at this aspect and I can write to the committee-----

On businesses finding accommodation-----

There must be a space for rental accommodation as well, but the Part V requirement does apply. If the accommodation in question is not intended to be temporary, and some in the agricultural and horticultural sector are permitted to-----

Part five only applies up to nine units-----

-----which does not make a development of 20 units very viable.

Yes, I am aware of that as well. Turning to Deputy McAuliffe's query regarding cost rental, with tenants in situ, this scheme is now in place, as are the changes to the first homes scheme, which was approved by the board of the designated activity company. We have had queries about this from people. These changes are to be routed through the local authorities and the Housing Agency is looking after these now. These changes, therefore, are in place on an administrative basis. I will write to the committee concerning An Bord Pleanála and any other outstanding items. I thank the members for all their engagement, input and the work, not just today but over this series of meetings. I look forward to receiving the committee's report.

On rural housing guidelines----

On the rural housing guidelines, it is a shame that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, had to leave early. My understanding is that those draft guidelines are with him at the moment and I intend to publish them. I intend to do the Gaeltacht planning very shortly as well. There are some significant changes that will help in the Gaeltacht too. I do not want to give a timeframe here. I will have to speak to the Minister of State about it.

Will the Minister announce it next week?

I will announce it myself if I do not receive the submission next week. Let us put it like that. It is on the way.

For the purposes of the report, will the Minister write to us on the voids question?

I will. The results, which show 8,300 units coming back in less than three years, are true. The average that was set on voids was actually €11,000 but that is the average cost. We are approving more substantial voids for much more than that. I will write to the Deputy on the voids as well.

I thank the Minister for his engagement and for that of his colleagues the Ministers of State, Deputies Noonan and O'Donnell, as well.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.01 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 May 2023.
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