JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 2011

Teaching of ICT at Primary and Post-Primary Levels: Discussion with Coder Dojo

Chairman

I welcome Mr. James Whelton, co-founder, and Mr. Ben Chapman, head co-ordinator, of Coder Dojo.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Whelton to make his opening statement.

Mr. James Whelton

I am the chief executive officer of Disruptive Developments Limited and co-founder of Coder Dojo. I am 19 years old and finished my leaving certificate in June last, so I have some first-hand and recent experience of the teaching of ICT in schools.

There is little if no education or exposure to computer science or coding in schools. It is not seen as cool and, if taught, it is usually done in a boring fashion. There is nothing to nurture interest and talent with little if any access to resources or information in schools. Poor career guidance on technology careers and skills is often given. Sometimes, it is not seen as viable career by parents with students, subsequently, pressured into safe careers such as law, medicine, engineering, which are now considered saturated areas. Teachers tend to be detached from school learning experience and cannot relate to young people trying to learn coding.

The industry complains about lack of graduates in coding and computer science. Ireland is a two-track economy with a booming technology scene with many vacancies, while high levels of unemployment and emigration persist. In January, when hiring two employees for my company I was forced to look in the United States and UK.

Coder Dojo is a global network of free computer clubs for young people in which people as young as seven come every Saturday, learn how to code, develop games and so forth, all for free. It was founded in June 2011 by Bill Liao and myself to tackle the poor state of technology for young people in Ireland and skills shortage in the Irish technology industry. Coder Dojo has seven clubs in Cork, Limerick, Kerry, Dublin, Drogheda, London and Paris, with more Dojos opening in Europe and America in these coming months. Coder Dojo currently has more than 150 children learning code along with more than 40 mentors with many more waiting for an opportunity to join. The Aran Islands is the latest area to request setting up a club.

From running Coder Dojo, we have identified several issues and resolutions to each. However, five minutes today is simply not sufficient time to explore each of these. We implore the foundation of a proactive sub-committee comprising education professionals, active coding and technology professionals to work with this area more in-depth. The group should examine actual implementation proposals, teaching methodologies and use of pre-existing resources.

How can one enhance the teaching of information and communications technology, ICT, at primary and secondary school level? Trips to companies such as Google, Facebook, etc, expose potential career paths and allow students to see the working environment. School trips are akin to those of going to the zoo. Coder Dojo organises sessions with introductions to coding, web design, and game development with departments in various colleges. Last week, for example, I met with the first-year co-ordinator of the business information systems course at University College Cork. It is trying to outreach to secondary schools but, unfortunately, there is no framework in place to support this.

Use of professionals in teaching in this area is important. Many teachers may have little experience in web design or coding, resulting in it not being taught efficiently and creating a bad experience. In Coder Dojo, all our mentors volunteer their time and often ICT professionals are happy to give their time to teach children. Guest speakers from various areas of the technology industry are more than happy to come to speak, for example, about what it is like to be a web designer or a system administrator. Of more importance are informed career guidance teachers. A career guidance teacher cannot currently differentiate a web developer from a desktop application developer or an iPhone developer. Information technology is such that, depending on what career one wants to follow, one's college course and knowing the different skills is incredibly important. This is something we need to tackle as well.

Moving on to coding in the second level curriculum, the implementation should be similar to that of music or art. I have been coding since I was nine years old. It is incredibly frustrating to see those who had done art and music for a similar amount of time being able to show off their skill set. Coding, in a way, is considered art and I did not have the same opportunity to be judged on it.

Ideally, the final examination should break down into two sections: a written test composing of various units on short questions on history, theory, practice, version control, systems, etc.; and a portfolio of various projects marked on design, user experience, features, source code. This is to accommodate the various coding languages. The portfolio should be marked by professionals according to industry standard. As technology is constantly advancing and changing, those who are actively working in this space should be judging it.

There should be open access to classes. We recognise that not all schools have the facilities to engineer this. However, in the same way that many courses, for example, in agricultural science, run grind schools, it means that it is open to other schools to provide after school tuition in this subject. Courses must be designed to accommodate technological changes. This is why we believe in having it open and that having a portfolio rather than a fixed syllabus would be better.

We must examine the teaching style of coding, that it must be contextual and fast paced and that students understand why they are doing a certain thing. In Coder Dojo, we have examined the teaching style of coding and have come up with a different style to that of traditional teaching which we have found to be quite effective, but it must be done to industry standard. If we want to make Ireland the Silicon Valley of Europe, as many are striving to achieve, we must have people coming out of the second and third level institutions with production level ability.

Discussion on this topic must take place for a longer duration and industry leaders and professionals should be involved. We implore the Government to strengthen and leverage its ties with technology companies here in Ireland during this process and to act quickly.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Whelton. For the information of members, Mr. Whelton and Mr. Chapman have agreed to put together a more detailed submission as well. This submission was only in respect of a five minute presentation but they will send through a pack of more detailed information which we will be able to tap into. I thank them for their presentation. It was their first time here and they are to be commended.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join with the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Whelton and Mr. Chapman to the committee. Mr. Whelton's contribution showed clearly his enthusiasm for this area and I compliment him on what he has achieved to date. He spoke of the opening up of a new club in Paris and also the development of a similar club, hopefully, on the Aran Islands. It shows, when one puts Paris and the Aran Islands together - I am sure Deputy Kyne would agree that the Aran Islands should be first - that there is nowhere on the periphery nowadays. It demonstrates the importance of IT and communications technology.

Mr. Whelton mentioned in his concluding remarks the need for proper discussion between industry leaders and professionals. Had they themselves an opportunity to discuss the issues they have outlined here with the association of career guidance counsellors, with the inspectorate in the Department of Education and Skills, with the directors of the institutes of technology who themselves have an umbrella organisation, or, indeed, the Irish Universities Association? Along with the inspectorate in the Department, there is also the National Council for Curriculum Assessment. All of those are important bodies.

Mr. Whelton mentioned that he had the opportunity to visit Google and Facebook. When he has taken that initiative of meeting those renowned international corporations and leading edge companies, and given his enthusiasm and the need he sees for a new approach to the promotion of this subject at second and third level and, as he stated earlier, at primary level, those other key stakeholders should be informed of Mr. Whelton's views in this area as well. Hopefully, they would be accommodating and understanding of the need that he outlines in his paper.

Mr. James Whelton

When we set up Coder Dojo, we purposely stayed clear of many educational bodies because we believe that it needed to be done a little differently and we did not want to be tied down with bureaucracy. We saw that these bodies often entail a great deal of bureaucracy and, essentially, rather than go down that route we merely went for it. Through this, we developed our own style and we did not have our views influenced by that of any pre-existing bodies. As we developed our own unique style, we were successful in that regard.

We are starting to have more interaction with schools and educational bodies and we greatly look forward to this. In addition, we opened our Drogheda club last weekend. We are opening in Galway and Kildare, and several more clubs in the coming months. It is at a stage where we are big enough. We are expanding to more countries. We have been recognised by the likes of Google and Facebook. We even had the technology editor of The Wall Street Journal coding his first game last week among some nine year olds in London, and we are starting to get recognised by this.

We are at a stage where our organisation is strong enough and we have proven our views to interact with these bodies. We wanted to firmly establish ourselves but now is the stage where we want to get involved with these bodies. For example, last night I met Harry Moran, who is 12 years old. He released his first Mac App after he learned how to develop on Codo Dojo. It went to top paid game and, subsequently, second top paid App on the Mac App store. He is in sixth class this year. He is asking can we try to have a syllabus for when he does his leaving certificate. Now is the stage where we are big enough and strong enough where we can start talking to these people almost on equal ground.

Chairman

Would Mr. Whelton be happy with direction on which groups and the various sections of the Department he should talk to? We could advise to whom he speak as well.

Mr. James Whelton

Yes.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Whelton and Mr. Bill Liao in Tralee recently. I was amazed by the achievements of young people. These were not as young as those aged seven and nine. These were the transition year, generally, aged 15 and 16. Their success is significant.

What has impressed me greatly is when Mr. Whelton spoke about seven year olds and nine year olds. If I have a problem at home with any technology, I do not go to my children. I go to my grandchildren, who seem to be able to handle it at a much earlier age.

I am fascinated with Coder Dojo. Mr. Whelton must tell us where the "Dojo" originated. I assumed it was Spanish.

How did Mr. Whelton get this started? How did he finance it? How does he continue to finance it? There is little doubt the objectives are correct but the real achievement will be to see how we manage to spread it around. Mr. Whelton stated that he wanted the Government strengthen and leverage its ties with technology companies. How does he see that happening?

It seems that one of the most important elements of influencing young people is the career guidance teacher. I spoke to a career guidance teacher yesterday who told me that with the cutbacks impending it is the career guidance staff who are being threatened even more than others because they are not getting top priority.

I ask Mr. Whelton to talk to us about some of the experience he has had with career guidance and how he suggests managing to establish what he refers to as strengthening and leverage? Would he remind me of how he finances this? It seems it is a matter of doing it himself rather than asking somebody else to do it for him.

Mr. James Whelton

To tackle Senator Quinn's first point on the name Coder Dojo, "Dojo" is a Japanese term for a place of learning. It is used in karate. When we established Coder Dojo, we wanted a cool name and we thought it sounded cool, but it is a place of learning. In karate, there are more senior persons who may not be black belts but who teach younger people, and it creates an evergreen cycle. We believe the same in Coder Dojo. For instance, we have had 12 year olds teach 15 year olds how to install blogs.

On the financing of Coder Dojo, it takes zero euro to deploy and set up a club. We have all the space donated. We have mentors volunteering their time. Often people pitch in to help out. We run it for free and have made sure it is very easy to deploy and maintain. Everybody in the technology scene in Ireland genuinely want to see this happen. That is why they are so happy to help out and why we believe it is very important to reach out.

Coder Dojo was established initially in December last. I won an award for Web design in school. Like all proud schools, mine announced this over the intercom. After my class, several people in my school commended me and asked how one makes a site such as Facebook or an iPhone app. Consequently, we established a computer club in my school. I believed that perhaps seven people would show up and that we would re-enact the breakfast club, but 30 pupils from first to sixth years showed up for the first session. Thereafter, for half a year, I taught programming and Web design to 30 pupils per week. The initiative grew to the extent that people from other schools were telephoning me asking me whether they could come to my school after school hours. I met Bill Liao and told him about this and we set up a location at the National Software Centre in Cork. We started running the programme and the number of contacts grew. We ran the first one in Dublin in Google's premises. We were told we could have a maximum of 40 people but over 60 children showed up. Google security had to start turning them away.

In running Coder Dojo, we managed to finance the imitative for free. It was founded by and large by two entrepreneurs. There are many entrepreneurs involved. Gerry Kennelly of Tweak is actively involved.

With regard to strengthening industry ties, I have had the pleasure of meeting the founders of companies such as Skype and Bebo at the recent founders conference in Ireland. They are all essentially saying the same thing. After this meeting, I will be meeting the head of IT at Facebook. Those at management level in Ireland are constantly looking for people in Ireland to get involved in this area, to build a better community and have a better ethos. Mr. Conor Murphy of Datahug, whose company just raised $1.5 million in its seed round, had to recruit his last five employees in America, the United Kingdom and Canada. Larger corporations in Ireland, such as Intel and Google, are snapping up potential employees by offering a better pay package than companies such as Datahug can offer. As long as one's views and goals are altruistic, the big companies are more than happy to help out. This is what the Government needs to start contacting them and at least start a conversation to see what emerges.

I accept the position on career guidance teachers, bearing in mind that this is such a tough week and that funding in this area is questionable. We should at least have them recognise that there are people they can contact to speak about this area. I have spoken to three schools and have received subsequent e-mails asking where they could find more information. Perhaps we should forge some sort of alliance between IT professionals and career guidance teachers such that if a pupil wanted to know what the area is like, a teacher would not necessarily have to have all the information to hand but could refer him to the network of professionals and actively invite the latter to speak on this area.

The Internet is a fantastic resource. Much of what I have learned and what others have learned has been learned therefrom. Unfortunately, not everybody knows where to start looking. Career guidance teachers should act as a pointer in this regard.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

I thank Mr. Whelton and Mr. Chapman for their presentation, with which I was very impressed. It is good to see two young people who are so capable and confident. I wish them well.

The delegates stated they wanted to enhance the teaching of ICT at primary and secondary levels. I hear what they are saying about getting people involved. The first problem is probably the expense of having up-to-date technology in classrooms. I am associated with a school that bought an entirely new computer lab. Three years down the line, it has become obsolete, thereby requiring the purchase of a new one. The pupils have better technology at home. We must think about how we will tackle the expense.

The delegates referred to bringing in experts from companies such as Google to advise teachers. I fully agree. The teachers will have a set amount of knowledge. I know from experience that the young people sitting in the classroom will have more. It will be very difficult.

Perhaps during transition year, young people could visit companies such as Google. I do not see how we can educate teachers to be ahead of the pupils. We have invested a lot of money in interactive whiteboards. These cost approximately €6,000 to €7,000 per classroom. The teachers have learned what is required of them in this area.

As a teacher, I note we are trying to re-emphasise literacy and numeracy. When one has an interactive whiteboard, children learn computing skills from the teacher, particularly at primary level. This is achieved through the interactive ethos in the classroom. How will it be possible to have teachers who are ahead of the likes of Mr. Whelton and Mr. Chapman? Although such pupils may be miles ahead, there will be others in the classroom who may not, and who may have no computer at home. How does one bring everything together?

Mr. James Whelton

There is some debate on the obsolescence of technology, depending on the area. When we first established Coder Dojo with donated computers, some nine year olds were using computers with software manufactured in 2000. They were, therefore, using computers older than themselves. It very much depends on the area. Consultants will sometimes say one's technology is outdated and that one needs to get more computers but this is not always necessary. If one develops in a language such as PHP or html, many of the standard web technologies can be operated on computers at least as old as five or six years. When one moves on to areas such as Java or iPhone development, one does need more modern computers but, with more entry-level technology, such as Web technologies, that is not so much the case. This is why one needs to examine existing resources.

Children often come to Coder Dojo with their own laptops, or they borrow a parent's laptop. Work done on these laptops can be taken home and worked on further. It is a case of examining the resources to hand; it is a subjective matter.

Mr. Ben Chapman

The most important resource that can be made available in a school is an Internet connection. This allows the student to research pretty much anything. One can use an Internet connection from any machine. As Mr. Whelton said, one can do the basics and often more complex work on the most basic of equipment. I refer to computers that schools may have acquired 13 years ago. My old school had plenty of machines lying around that were possibly older than me. They suit this kind of activity perfectly because nobody needs to worry about them in the manner they would worry about a brand-new laptop, for example.

Mr. James Whelton

Consider the point on the experience level of teachers. ICT is generally viewed as the use of computer applications or desktop applications such as Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word. Students are picking these up instinctively. A small child can almost use an iPhone instinctively. This is because people have developed systems such that the carrying out of almost every function comes to one naturally, and one instinctively knows the next action.

With regard to coding, which has almost been described as a new form of literacy, we are becoming consumers and need to return to becoming creators. We understand that not all teachers will have the time to gain experience in this area. However, schools should facilitate it. There are many individuals who are more than happy to get involved. Getting information out about the type of events that are going on is another form of it. There is a need for wider discussion in this area. Neither Mr. Chapman nor I are educational professionals or teachers but we are here to share what we have learned with the committee. This is why further thought must be given to finding a solution. Reaching out and leveraging individuals will be important.

Mr. Ben Chapman

Some of our best mentors do not necessarily possess expertise in the subjects the children are learning. However, they know how to use Google and other available resources to show the students how to perform specific tasks. That is an important skill for children to learn. It is something that can transfer to anyone, not just mentors or teachers. It can happen across the board in terms of providing better research and literacy skills across the curriculum.

Mr. James Whelton

Self-led learning is very important. Like other information technology professionals, if we encounter a problem we simply use Google to find a solution. The ability to learn by oneself means that one can continue to learn outside the classroom. In fifth year, I got 40% in a maths exam at Christmas and my maths teacher put a bomb under me. I taught myself maths and got 87% in the exam the following summer. We should not underestimate the potential of self-led learning. School achievement is dependent on how well the pupil can adjust to the system.

Senator Michael Mullins

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. The amount of time and effort they are investing in a voluntary capacity is incredible. They are helping young people to achieve their goals and objectives.

What tempted them to get involved in this area? They indicated that parents do not always see the area as a viable career option. How can we get around that difficulty? What would they like the Department to do in the next 12 months to expose more young people to computer science and coding?

Mr. James Whelton

I am entirely unsure how I got into programming at such a young age. As a small child I was dropped on my head a lot by my older sisters and my parents sometimes attribute it to that. I was not the sporty or academic type at school but I saw a computer as a box of mysteries. I started off by making animations and proceeded to design websites. It was natural curiosity and I was persistent at it. A lot of young people are going beyond using their computers to investigate how they work. Unfortunately, there was no framework to answer their questions and help them find out if they liked the subject.

Senator Michael Mullins

What sort of job potential does Mr. Whelton see in this area?

Mr. James Whelton

Parents traditionally want their children to study law, engineering and medicine, which were seen as safe careers. Technology was seen as requiring individuals to sit in front of a computer all day. In some cases, the problem is simply a lack of information and a solution to this is to have guest speakers engage with both students and parents. The opportunities are immense. People are often poached from companies and there is significant potential for starting up enterprises. I am aware of individuals who worked as consultants and developed bespoke web applications who sold their companies after six months. There are opportunities to move up the ranks from developers to project managers. Particularly in larger companies and organisations, the potential for growth is substantial.

Mr. Ben Chapman

The image of nerds sitting in a basement is miles away from the truth. Google occupies some of the largest buildings in Dublin and its staff would consider themselves as engineers. All the computer science degrees allow graduates to be recognised as chartered engineers. I do not think people realise these career pathways are accompanied by high professional salaries.

Senator Michael Mullins

What would the witness like the Minister for Education and Skills to do over the next 12 months?

Mr. James Whelton

I am not an educational professional nor am I particularly familiar with the political structure. However, a sub-committee comprising active professionals from industry and the education sector could be established to examine this area. It would also be welcome if a way could be found to facilitate interaction between corporations and institutions at primary and secondary level. When we visited the UK, our first session was held at a college which offers a number of computer science degrees. We were told it regularly visits schools to provide day-long programmes in movie making, game development and web design. It has developed a six-year plan with the intention that the children with whom it works will want to attend college after they graduate.

Mr. Ben Chapman

It is important that the NCCA and related bodies engage with the schools of computing in our universities and institutes of technology to ascertain the skills required in students attending computer courses. Most of the computer science courses have high drop out rates because of fundamental misunderstandings about their curricula. I am sure this committee has heard from universities about this problem.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome the witnesses. As someone from Galway, it is great to see they are pushing out to the final frontiers of the Aran Islands.

I am not that old but during my time in secondary school from 1987 to 1992, the computer class was a doss. Unless one had a great interest in it, one did one's homework. A few students worked on an Apple computer. Digital was based in Galway at the time and it sent its old computers to schools. In fairness, there were plenty of computers and that worked for a period of time. Is there enough in coding to offer a full subject or would it form part of a computer science degree? In regard to parental pressure on students to opt for safe careers, the numbers studying computer science increased during the early 2000s but then people moved to the newer careers of architecture and engineering.

A new gaming company was recently established in Galway. It faced issues in terms of finding Irish people who were competent in programming and software. The bigger football clubs, such as Manchester United, employ scouts to sign five or six year old children to their teams. Do the witnesses see a similar role in - I will not say finding - training boys and girls at that age, thus furthering their abilities and picking out those that have a genuine interest and capability? They could then be - I will not say shipped off - recommended to Google, Facebook and other companies.

Mr. James Whelton

We have had instances in which IT professionals have come to Coder Dojo in Cork to scout for talent and talk to kids. We have certainly identified young individuals who have great talent. When we first started in Cork I got an e-mail from someone called Shane Curran, who said he loved what we were doing in Cork and that he would like to get involved in an administrative role when we came to Dublin. He had done his first operating system install when he was six, and over the last few years he had been working on web development. He finished by saying he would love to get involved and help out, and signed off: "Yours, Shane Curran, aged 11." Certainly, these individuals are out there, but it is only now, with the publicity that initiatives such as Coder Dojo have been getting, that they have started to come to us. When I was younger - perhaps this was also the case for Mr. Chapman - there was nowhere for us to show our skills, which would have allowed people to identify us. Now, with the advent of Coder Dojo and the introduction of coding into the second level curriculum, we are starting to see these younger people become more visible, which will subsequently lead to greater interaction between them and large companies.

With regard to the Deputy's point on computer science and coding, computer science is a broad area which details the theory behind certain subjects and how things work, whereas coding deals specifically with writing in certain programming languages. Coding is an entire topic in itself. For example, if we take a look at the composition of web pages, everything on the front side is done in HTML, CSS and JavaScript, which are three languages that go hand-in-hand. That is something one could do for one or two years. People often assume that young people are unable or do not have the ability to learn these languages, but we know of an eight-year-old in Limerick who developed her first website and subsequently went on to pitch it to 30 people in the Coder Dojo. Certainly these young people are extremely capable. Coding is definitely an entire subject.

Mr. Ben Chapman

In terms of university courses, it is important to make sure that everybody understands the difference between computer science and coding, because that is something that many people miss. If we introduce people to coding in secondary school and they do not understand the difference between coding and computer science, we will end up with a high drop-out rate from university. Through code, one will always learn aspects of computer science, although one would be missing out on a few points. A broad range of subject matter is covered just by coding, and one would not necessarily make the association until one looked at it on paper. They are strongly similar in that respect.

Deputy Seán Kyne

Would it be similar to somebody doing a degree in medicine and then specialising in something?

Mr. James Whelton

If one is doing medicine and is particularly focused on the brain, one will have to go through the eye and learn about the eye on the way. Similarly, if a person is coding, he or she becomes familiar with the computer environment, the system that runs on it and the theory behind how it runs.

Chairman

Have the witnesses had a chance to examine how coding features in the school curriculums of other countries? They might not have had a chance yet.

Mr. James Whelton

I have been to the UK and I am actually going to America for the first time next week. In the UK there is not quite such a strong emphasis on coding, although it exists. The technology editor of The Wall Street Journal, who is British, told me that his daughter’s class was taught to create a system through Microsoft Access which was essentially a dentist’s payroll system. After teaching 20 15-year-old girls to do this, the school was wondering why nobody was interested in doing computer science in college. This shows that the manner in which it is taught is not very interesting. However, we are starting to see more countries target institutions below third level - essentially, secondary and primary schools - and put more focus on coding. There is now an initiative in the UK called Coding for Kids, which we have been interacting with. We are ready to deploy in Manchester and Birmingham; we are just waiting until we can get our UK co-ordinator out there. It is an area that other countries are starting to recognise and take more seriously. This is a great opportunity for Ireland to be in the forefront.

Mr. Ben Chapman

One of the bodies behind the A level exams in the UK does have a specific ICT education course which matches very closely with first-year computer science in university. That is the extent of ICT education in the UK.

Chairman

On behalf of our committee I would like to say that today's discussion was very impressive, but it was also important and interesting. I thank the witnesses for coming in. The reason they are here is that some of our members, such as Senator Quinn, have come across Coder Dojo in the last couple of months, and the children of the clerk to the committee, Tara Kelly, are also in some way linked with it. They are onto something big. As a committee we will take this into consideration and try to open as many doors as we can. We will definitely talk to the Minister about it. Basically, what they need is the setting up of a discussion in which we bring all the players together and try and drive things forward until we get some action. It has been made clear by other people presenting here, mainly in industry, that there is a problem that organisations such as Coder Dojo can help solve by getting people ready to take on the jobs that are out there to be filled. I appreciate the witnesses' interest and we will certainly work with them on this. We will put this subject on our work programme for next year and provide feedback to them.

Mr. James Whelton

We are both extremely interested, as is every other mentor, in interaction. In this sphere, we just have to go for it. That is essentially what we do with Coder Dojo, and we have learned a lot in the process. In my own interpretation, areas such as this are sometimes victims of bureaucracy in the official sphere. I stress the importance of the speed at which progress is made in this area. Even if the initial sessions lack a certain formal structure, they should still be carried out.

Chairman

That is something in which we as a committee can have a role. I thank the witnesses, and we will be in touch with them in the new year. I wish them the best of luck with the whole thing.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.37 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 14 December 2011.