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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Jan 2012

Proposals to Stimulate Domestic Demand: Discussion with IBEC

I welcome from the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, Mr. Brendan Butler, director of policy, and Mr. Fergal O'Brien, head of economics and taxation. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. Butler to commence the briefing on current and future proposals to stimulate domestic demand and create jobs in domestic sectors.

Mr. Brendan Butler

Mr. O'Brien and I appreciate the opportunity to address the joint committee. We have submitted a short document and propose to provide a brief overview of the key issues surrounding the problem of consumer confidence and domestic demand.

As members will be aware, we have a two-speed economy. The exporting sector continues to perform well despite global economic conditions. Figures published this morning, for example, show the agribusiness sector generated exports valued at almost €9 billion in 2011 and has achieved double-digit growth in each of the past two years. Agribusiness remains a highly successful part of the economy and perhaps one of its key sectors given that it is entirely indigenous. All other exporting sectors are also performing very well and IBEC is confident that exports will continue to be strong in 2012 despite the global downturn.

We face significant challenges in respect of the second element of the economy, namely, its domestic side. We are all aware of the crisis in consumer confidence. Consumers generally are taking decisions not to make investments and their expenditure and saving pattern has changed significantly. In addition to the two-speed economy in the domestic and export sectors, we also have a two-speed economy in the pattern of saving and spending by consumers. The 35 to 50 years age group faces extraordinary difficulties arising from the financial predicament of many of those in this age group. However, IBEC has identified two other elements of the consumer population who are not in the same difficult straits. People under 35 years appear to be postponing investment decisions in respect of buying property and choosing to save substantial amounts. Those in the over 50 years category are also significantly increasing savings. In the case of the latter, one of the reasons for saving more is difficulties people in the over 50 age group are experiencing as a result of the reduction in the values of their equities. However, our analysis shows that an element of this saving is precautionary, in other words, people are putting away money they would otherwise spend.

Over a period of time, we will return to a normal spending and saving pattern. The question, however, is how soon this can happen. We propose initiatives to accelerate a return to a typical saving and spending pattern for an economy of this size. Reverting to a normal spending pattern would create increased activity in the economy, support the public finances and ultimately result in job creation. There are three key elements to achieving a return to the normal spending pattern. The first is communications. What communications could we explore to try to give domestic consumers some comfort and address their fear and lack of confidence? The second element relates to specific measures the Government could take to try to encourage spending. IBEC fully accepts that the Exchequer is in a difficult position and our proposals in this respect do not require additional Exchequer spending. The third element, which is a growing problem, is access to credit and the credit flow in the economy for both domestic and business consumers.

Having provided a background, I ask Mr. O'Brien, IBEC's chief economist, to provide further details. We will then take questions from members.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

When we look back at 2011 we find that in terms of the strength of the economy, the first half of the year was on the upside. The incredibly strong export performance to which Mr. Butler referred was the key factor driving this economic growth. However, the third quarter figures published in the week before Christmas were very disappointing. We must always be careful not to read too much into growth numbers for an individual quarter because they tend to be exceptionally volatile given the nature and structure of the economy. It is clear, however, that while exports are continuing to grow, we will not have the same pace of growth as we had in the past two years. This will make it much more challenging to keep the economy out of recession and maintain economic growth.

In addition, strong export growth has not delivered the type of employment boost we desperately need. With close to 300,000 people unemployed, the need for some type of stimulus to the domestic economy to get spending going again and return people to work is more urgent than ever. This issue has been placed in focus again by the downturn caused by the eurozone crisis.

The economy needs an injection of confidence and cash, both capital and liquidity, and scale is needed in terms of where this cash will come from. Mr. Butler mentioned that the Exchequer is not in a position to provide that cash, so where else can it come from?

We identified three areas. The first issue is credit. I will talk a little in a moment about that issue of credit because it is absolutely crucial in terms of supporting normal demand and activity in the economy.

The second is this issue of the savings. Again, we see a macroeconomic number of a savings ratio of approximately 10%. Many people will say that within that number, there is a lot of debt repayment. There is a considerable amount of debt repayment within that savings ratio but as Mr. Butler mentioned, there are two key age cohorts which are increasing real savings. For the under 35s and the over 50s, real money in bank accounts is going up in double digit terms.

The third area is whether we can get money from outside the country. Pension funds is one example. Can we bring back some of that money? Can we put it to work? Can we allow people to draw down some of the pension funds they hold in terms of supporting spending in the economy? Another area where one could get money from outside the country in terms of a cash injection for the economy would be in regard to infrastructure - looking at other ways to fund infrastructure through public private partnership projects, for example.

I refer to the credit issue and understanding this relationship between the flow of credit and demand in the economy. I will give one number on it. In 2006, the relationship between the banks and the households was a net flow from the banks to the households of €30 billion. By 2010, we had seen a full reversal of that and there was a net flow from the households back in the doors of the banks of €10 billion. That was the credit flow. That is a net credit adjustment. People are deleveraging because they must do so. It is perfectly understandable that people who face mortgage pressures are probably paying down those mortgages as quickly as they can but the problem is that we are not seeing enough new credit going into the economy. That swing from that €30 billion positive flow into the economy and into the households to a negative €10 billion back into the banks more than anything probably explains the repressed nature of domestic demand in the Irish economy.

In terms of some of the particulars around incentives and some of the specific measures we recommend, we acknowledge the fact the Exchequer does not have the funds to support a stimulus package. Any economist will say that what Ireland desperately needs is some form of injection - some form of stimulus activity in the economy. Where could that come from? On the issue of pensions, the first issue at which we have looked, approximately €70 billion in pension funds is invested outside the country. The Minister for Finance alluded to this in his budget speech that the Government is keen to look at that again in terms of whether we can incentivise some investment of those funds in infrastructure or venture capital funds. We think a lot can be done there.

I refer to another issue at which we have looked in terms of the pensions. These occupational pensions are approximately €70 billion but we also have what we call "additional voluntary contributions" and personal pension schemes. They total approximately an extra €20 billion. We think there is considerable merit in looking at a proposal to allow individuals, many of whom would be in very changed economic circumstances from where they were when they put that money into those pensions five or ten years ago, to draw down a proportion of their pension pots before retirement in order to put stimulus demand activity into the economy. Our suggestion is that we would allow people the opportunity to draw down up to approximately 25% of the pots they have in these additional voluntary contributions and personal pension schemes.

We do not think it would make sense to allow people to start to tap occupational schemes because we have a whole range of problems in terms of the under-funding of occupational schemes and the adequacy issues around occupational schemes. In terms of these AVCs and personal pension pots, there is strong logic to look at them and to allow people to get early access to them and to encourage some of that money to be spent in the economy. We could get quite a significant stimulus out of that money if it was spent.

Again, the key in all of this would be to frame a two or three year window of opportunity to try to get some of that money drawn down and as Mr. Butler said, to try to bring forward some of these investment and consumption decisions which will eventually happen anyway.

The second area at which we have looked is that of home improvements. Again, it is incredibly important now in terms of its contribution to the construction sector. There was a time when the home improvement sector was probably 10% to 15% of new house build. Now it is the same value. Approximately €2.5 billion per year is being spent on home improvements so it is still a very important sector of the economy.

What we have seen since the downturn is a significant increase in informal activity - shadow economic activity in the home improvement sector. We think there is considerable merit in the Government trying to frame a timebound incentive - a short window of opportunity of two or three years - and giving a grant or a tax credit for people who do certain home improvement works. One could spec out what the budget would be - for example, investments between €3,000 and €20,000. One would bring it into the formal economy and one would get accreditation and PPS numbers of construction workers. One will achieve two things. People will do additional work and will bring forward the decision to do that work. One will also see a shift from the informal economy to the formal economy, hence it will not cost the Exchequer anything. One will get more activity and, more important, the Exchequer will get a lot more taxes out of it. This type of thing has worked well internationally and one can do it at no cost to the Exchequer. That is the crucial point. One could have the scheme for two or three years. The home energy schemes have worked very well in terms of the kind of stimulus they have brought about.

Crucially, with this type of scheme, one gets a really good regional distribution of the activity. It goes right across the country. As an aside, one of the real challenges we face at the moment is that the Dublin economy seems to be bounding back reasonably strongly. We see that in terms of internationally traded services. That is a big growth sector in the economy but it is all Dublin-based. The regions are really struggling. Any measure that will give us a good regional spread deserves additional attention.

The whole area of property transactions is crucial in terms of demand, activity and employment in the economy. It is obviously very closely related to the flow of credit in the economy. Again, the measures we saw in the budget were quite innovative. In terms of trying to bring forward a window of opportunity and timebound measures, now is a good time to start to move in regard to considering a home purchase decision. That is what we are focusing on here, namely, the purchase of homes, because there is considerable pent-up demand. Essentially, people have not bought family homes for four or five years. In 2006, 80,000 people bought homes. These were not speculators, property developers or buy to rent. These were 80,000 mortgages for first-time buyers and mover uppers. Last year, that was down to 10,000, so people are not buying family homes.

Obviously, with the deterioration of macroeconomic circumstances and employment, there is less demand but that demand is not as low as 10,000, so there is considerable pent-up demand. There are large numbers of people sitting on the fence waiting for prices to fall further. That is perfectly sensible if one is in that situation but one is also struggling to get credit. Whatever we do in terms of the housing market - what was done in the budget was sensible - one needs to bring that forward in unison with the measures to improve the availability of credit.

We have some suggestions around potentially looking at the stamp duty regime again. What was done in the budget was sensible. We have some ideas in that we think the stamp duty on property transactions is too low. If one pre-announced an increase in stamp duty rates to 2013 and 2014, one could bring forward some activity but again it is quite similar to what the Government did in the budget. We think we could build on that but crucially, we need to drive the credit availability as well.

Another specific proposal we have made in terms of these measures is around the issue of child benefit payments. We are paying €2.2 billion in child benefit payments. It is equivalent to approximately 3% of consumer spending, so it is exceptionally large and is effectively within the social welfare scheme. Our main concern is that money is not all being spent in the economy. We have seen recent market research which shows that €0.5 billion of that is going straight into savings accounts. Given that this is a universal payment, everyone gets it irrespective of their income or need. Obviously, there are many hard-pressed families which desperately need this money to support their children and they are spending it. However, because it is a universal payment, there are large numbers of middle to high income families which do not need this money and are not spending it.

We have seen from market research that €0.5 billion of our child benefit payments are going directly into savings accounts. Our proposal is that we would have a payments card which would effectively act as an incentive to spend that money rather than save it. We have heard of the complexities around means testing and taxing the child benefit and that is being worked on by various task forces at the moment. Our solution is to bring forward an incentive for this money to be spent. An electronic payment card could be used for the purchase of any goods or services in the State and the people who would use it would be better off than with their current payments because the retailers could build in discounts through the use of this card. People who still want to opt for a cash payment would be entitled to do so but at a reduced level of 25%. We focused on that particular payment because so much of it is being saved and it is such a large payment. However, this could be expanded to other payments, again with the objective of trying to get more spending activity in the Irish economy. Those are just some of the particulars on which we are happy to have debate, questions and comment.

I agree with much of the witnesses' analysis. There is no doubt that there is a massive need for stimulus. The difference in terms of the United States economy and the European economy is clearly the difference between the austerity in Europe and the stimulus within the US economy. Is it the witnesses' view that we have passed the tipping point with regard to austerity? In terms of the upcoming budget, IBEC has been vocal in stating we are at the limits of austerity. Given the reduction in tax receipts in recent months and the slowdown in the economy, is it the witnesses' view that we are past that tipping point?

A number of the proposals made by the witnesses are excellent. Funding is available from the European Investment Bank which can be brought into the State. The National Pension Reserve Fund could be used for stimulus if used intelligently.

What percentage of incentives would be necessary to entice those in the private investment industry to get involved in a capital investment project of some sort in this State? We have propounded the view that a retrofit scheme, for example, giving approximately 4% or 5% return to private investment funds on an annual basis could see a good chunk of the 1.6 million homes in the State retrofitted and paying for itself within ten years from the savings in terms of energy.

What is the witnesses' experience and that of the members of their organisation with regard to credit flow? Do they have any statistics or facts that would enable us understand that better from their experience?

What is their experience of upward only rents? Do they have legal views on upward only rents and their effect within the economy?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

To answer the questions in reverse order, the credit flow position is very much a combination of the lack of supply and lack of demand, and the truth is somewhere in between. Members will hear the institutions say that, by and large, they do not believe that issues arise regarding availability of credit but we hear constantly from our members that they are having problems getting access to credit. The reality is somewhere in between. The demand for credit has fallen substantially but there is still significant unmet demand.

In the context of the constraints Ireland now faces as a result of the deleveraging that is happening and the challenging targets we face in terms of fiscal adjustment, one of the areas we believe there is merit in examining is the deleveraging targets for some of the financial institutions in the context of the troika agreement. We are concerned that for some institutions, and this may not be universal across the entire banking sector in that there will be differences between the institutions, this is causing a problem in terms of availability of credit. The deleveraging targets are very ambitious. We now have a much more challenging market situation in terms of opportunities for asset disposal and new investment.

To touch on the first part of the Deputy's question, we need to stick to the fiscal targets. We must continue to deliver the austerity we have agreed in the troika agreement in terms of those financial targets but there is merit in re-examining some of the targets around the deleveraging in the financial system. That would be a way to counter-balance some of the contractionary pressures we are facing from the austerity if we had greater availability of new credit into the economy.

As regards whether the austerity is gone beyond a tipping point, now more than ever we need to balance that austerity with growth measures in the economy. We have not seen anything meaningful to date. The jobs initiative of last year was a substantive measure in terms of what it set out to achieve. We believe it caused many problems regarding the way it was being paid for in terms of the under-funded pension funds but we must see measures of that scale and greater if we are to bring meaningful stimulus into the economy. In terms of austerity, we still need to do it. I do not see any other route out of this for Ireland but we must come up with innovative ways of balancing that austerity with more ambitious growth measures.

Regarding private sector investment, at a macro level in terms of public private partnerships, for example, the key factor will be around Ireland's sovereign credit rating, the international market impression of where the Irish economy is going, whether we are achieving the targets in the troika agreement, and whether we are adjusting our competitiveness and showing capacity for growth. All of those factors will be crucial in terms of trying to get new investment into the economy. If we fall short on any of those three factors we will struggle to get external investment into the Irish economy. That is the challenge we will face. Mr. Butler might want to comment on upward-only rent reviews and that area.

Mr. Brendan Butler

The sense we have from talking to much of the business community is that the decision now would be that it will not be in any way retrospective. We are getting a sense from our members that if they talk to their landlords and put forward a reasonable economic argument an increasing number of landlords are prepared to renegotiate the arrangements. That type of more flexible arrangement rather than heading into the formal arrangement seems to be the one yielding the better results. If we went down the legal route our sense is that it would be challenged and would eventually end up in the courts, which would not be to the benefit of people who are paying what they believe are high rates.

I ask the representatives to keep us informed on that in terms of the information they are gathering.

I thank the representatives for an informative and interesting presentation. I share Deputy Tóibín's concerns about the risk of reaching a tipping point regarding the austerity measures. It is important that we keep that level of activity going while at the same time try to reduce our deficit. Therefore, any suggestions and ideas such as those put forward earlier are more than welcome.

I ask for some elaboration on the pensions aspect of the witnesses' proposals. I would like more clarity on the way they see that working.

On the home improvements issue, is there any specific area of home improvements the witnesses envisage? For example, is it general works or more specific work such as fire proofing, which will become more important in the coming years, particularly in regard to social and local authority housing, or will it be further work in terms of insulation?

We have seen from market research that €0.5 billion of our child benefit payments are going directly into savings accounts. Our proposal is that we would have a payments card which would effectively act as an incentive to spend that money rather than save it. We have heard of the complexities around means testing and taxing the child benefit and that is being worked on by various task forces at the moment. Our solution is to bring forward an incentive for this money to be spent. An electronic payment card could be used for the purchase of any goods or services in the State and the people who would use it would be better off than with their current payments because the retailers could build in discounts through the use of this card. People who still want to opt for a cash payment would be entitled to do so but at a reduced level of 25%. We focused on that particular payment because so much of it is being saved and it is such a large payment. However, this could be expanded to other payments, again with the objective of trying to get more spending activity in the Irish economy.

On the child benefit aspect, this committee intends to do a great deal of work on that area as it is widely agreed that the current system is unfair and far from ideal. Do the witnesses not fear that the use of the payments card system would result in those who could do without child benefit saving in other areas what they would have spent on the card? How would the witnesses suggest that could be avoided?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

On pensions, our specific proposal is very much outside the occupational schemes and around the additional voluntary contributions, of which we reckon there is approximately €4 billion, and personal pension schemes which we do not have good data on but which we have estimated could be up to €15 billion. We are talking about a pot potentially in the range of €20 billion. Our specific suggestion is based on an examination of the profile of the many people who did reasonably well for themselves during the Celtic tiger years but are now experiencing changed economic circumstances. Many self-employed people whose businesses have failed are now out of work. They could be sitting on a pension pot that is potentially worth a considerable amount of money. We think that if they were allowed to access that money now, they would use it to fund their lifestyles and pay down some of their debts. Specific aspects of debt repayment would have to be reconsidered. We would not want all the money to come back into this country only to be used solely for the repayment of debt. Some sort of code of practice would have to be worked out with the financial institutions to the effect that a maximum of 20% or 25% of the drawdown would be used to pay down debt. We would like people to use it predominantly for normal consumption or perhaps even for investment opportunities. There are many good investment opportunities in the Irish economy. Many of the buyers at distressed auctions are cash buyers from the UK. Would it not make more sense to allow people with Irish pension funds outside this country to bring some of those funds back so they can buy some of the properties that are on sale at good value?

We do not think people should be allowed to draw down the full pot. We are saying they should be allowed to draw down up to 25% of it within a specific three-year window of opportunity. It is all about providing an incentive to move now. We need to try to get activity going. We need to bring some of the cash back and get the money spent. We have suggested that it could be phased in over three years - 8% could be allowed over three years so that people do not draw down the full amount and make bad investment decisions. It is a question of allowing the funds to be drawn down over three years. That is as much of the detail as we have worked out. Obviously, it will have to be done at a reduced rate of tax. We have suggested that it should be done at the standard rate of tax. People would pay the standard rate of tax on this when they draw it down. The Exchequer would get an immediate benefit when the money is drawn down and all the knock-on benefits of the activity and employment that are created when the money is spent in the economy. We think it would be a win-win situation for the Exchequer, in terms of immediate tax revenue and in terms of additional revenue from the economic activity and the multipliers throughout the economy.

Mr. Brendan Butler

I wish to comment on the other two matters, the first of which is the home improvement works proposal. Two key elements of that proposal are particularly relevant in trying to frame it. It is clear that it would have a regional aspect and that it would try to deal with the shadow economy in a focused way. There has been a collapse in employment in the construction sector. We have moved quickly into an informal or black economy with regard to home improvement and work of that nature. We have examined some of the international experience. Reference was made earlier to the US. Under a scheme that was introduced as part of the Canadian economic plan of 2008, those who engaged in home improvement work received a dedicated amount. It may have been capped at 20%. The Canadian Government estimated that the scheme would bring in approximately $3 billion in activity, at a cost to its exchequer of $2.3 billion. It knew it would meet its costs and perhaps make something above that. The scheme enjoyed considerable success. Over $4.5 billion was spent on home improvements over a short period of time, with a considerable gain to the exchequer and a very considerable gain in terms of job creation.

We estimate from the numbers we have put together that if formal activity involving registered contractors who are completely compliant with the laws of the land increased by 30%, it would result in additional expenditure of approximately €700 million in the economy on home improvements. That would lead to the creation of slightly less than 10,000 formal jobs in the construction sector. We are not specifying that this should be done in particular areas. It could involve retrofitting or a range of other activities. We are proposing that a specific cohort - people over the age of 50 who are saving money but traditionally might have spent some money on home improvement - should be targeted with a clear and dedicated scheme over a period of time. It could be capped at three years. We think that would have a strong regional impact and would help to deal with the growing problem of the informal economy.

The second proposal we would like to mention is the child benefit card. There is no doubt that well-to-do people who are currently saving the money could get the card, spend the money and find some other way of saving an equivalent sum. There will always be an element of that. Concern has been raised with us about people who really need the money they get through child benefit. Having spoken to retailers and suppliers, our understanding is that they would welcome such a card. One would not need to have a bank account in order to use it. One's social welfare or child benefit would be paid to a card that one could use in one's local supermarket, swimming pool, leisure centre or restaurant. That would be acceptable. We have spoken to many retailers who have said they would be prepared to offer discounts if such a scheme were introduced, which would mean that those who really need the money would be able to buy more with their child benefit than they can at present.

We do not want to make a big issue of the fact that a small amount of child benefit leaves the country. Non-Irish people who are working here are sending their child benefit overseas. It is not a huge amount. We are saying that those who really need child benefit will be able to use this card to purchase what they are currently purchasing with their child benefit money. They will probably get even more for it. We are suggesting that those who currently save their child benefit should get 25% less than the current child benefit rates if they choose to take the money rather than using this card and spending money in the economy.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

I would like to pick up on the question of whether people will transfer their savings from one place to another. We have based this on some ideas in behavioural economics. It is really about changing the default setting for people. It is amazing how inactive people are in terms of organising their personal finances. When one changes the setting, a certain percentage of people will reorganise their finances and decide to save more, but many other people will not do so. Experience shows that the majority of people will not realign their finances to get savings from elsewhere.

It is a very interesting concept. I presume any such proposal would need to include an opt-out clause for special cases. Such a measure might have to be included to cater for children with special nutritional requirements, for example. It is certainly a helpful contribution to our debate and our work on the matter.

Has the proposal been submitted to the Department of Social Protection?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

It has.

We can follow it up with the Department.

I thank Mr. Butler and Mr. O'Brien for coming to this meeting and making their presentation. I like their ideas on American-style grant aid for developers, the black market and what is going on in the real world. They said that €30 billion went from banks into households during the good years. It is now going in the opposite direction. Some €10 billion is going back into the banks. Basically, there is €40 billion there.

I would like to mention an issue I have raised at several Oireachtas joint committee meetings. Many self-employed people took out loans during the good years. I suggest that 99% of such people in this country have renegotiated their loans. They are outside the rules and regulations of their original loans. They are paying their way. When they departed from the original rules of their loans, they were registered with the Irish Credit Bureau in a way that means they will have to wait six years before they can get credit again even though they are paying their way.

We should consider how we can move forward in a way that enables people to get credit in this country. The Financial Regulator has done a good job with the banks, but he is not looking after consumers as well. It is very hard for people. I know self-employed people who would like to move forward but cannot get credit because they have renegotiated loans outside the original terms of those loans. Some €30 billion went into households, but now that things have turned around there is €10 billion going back into the banks. The banks are not lending - it is as simple as that. As I have said, 99% of people in this country have renegotiated their loans. The Financial Regulator needs to talk to the Irish Credit Bureau. A new system will have to be introduced if we are to move forward. Will Mr. O'Brien state what he thinks about moving forward in a new system? That is the reason there is no stimulus in the retail sector. People are not spending because they do not have the money. All they have goes to paying back debts and they cannot borrow, not even from credit unions, as the regulator noted. Credit unions are now like banks. If one goes to get a loan the application goes before the Irish Credit Bureau. Credit unions were put in place by the people for the people but that is what is happening.

We will be taking the views of IBEC.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

The Deputy has put his finger on it.

Before Mr. O'Brien starts, I have another point. I spoke to a gentleman who renegotiated his loans with a certain bank. The terms were that the bank took his laser and his credit cards from him for six to 18 months. If he paid the bank back according to the terms of the new loan he would get back his cards. Those were the terms even though he had renegotiated his loans and was paying his way. That is what the banks are doing.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

The Deputy is right when he states the flow of credit is central in terms of supporting activity and employment. We have put the focus on those people we would regard as credit worthy and in a position to get credit. For whatever reason, either because of availability issues or the bank's confidence in the person, that credit is not flowing. The credit position is a complex jigsaw. We have put certain restrictions on the banks through the agreement with the troika, in terms of regulation and the targets they must meet. On the other side are consumers and businesses who are afraid to take out credit. The credit story is a very complex jigsaw but what is crucial in terms of supporting reasonable numbers of jobs and activity is getting the flow going for people who are credit worthy and who have the confidence to make decisions in regard to consumption and investment.

However, there are other issues around restructuring and bankruptcy where we seem to be out of line internationally and some of these have been looked at elsewhere. They will hold back entrepreneurs who have run into difficulty. Looking internationally, we seem to be out of line in terms of how long we expect people to remain in this credit purgatory.

Six years is a very long time. People have renegotiated their loans and are paying their way but they are being penalised. If we are to get this economy moving we must do something in regard to the Irish Credit Bureau.

The delegates expressed some ideas on home improvements and the related stimulus. Have they done any work on these in terms of what percentage of project costs would be required for incentives, such as grants to get people to move? The point was made that there should not be any cost to the Exchequer. What is the cut-off in the level of grant that would ensure there would be no such cost?

I have some other points that might be dealt with together. Other ways of funding infrastructure were suggested in terms of public private partnerships. When we were examining the future of Metro North and the possibility of private money availability, it seemed clear that whatever private money was likely to arrive would not do so until perhaps a year after the recession was over. What confidence do the delegates have that private money would be available now rather than later?

I refer to pensions. Many people come to me to discuss occupational pensions, telling me they are in trouble or in debt and wish to get their hands on some element of their pension in order to get them out of trouble and save the day to some extent. There would be potential for saving people's futures if some of that money were available. The delegates appeared to be clear that availability did not apply to occupational pensions. They spoke of €20 billion. Does that figure apply to personal pensions rather than to occupational pensions, which would be a separate pot? What confidence do they have that even if such finance was available it would not also go in large part to pay off debt and thereby not provide a stimulus?

Mr. Brendan Butler

There were three questions and I shall deal with the first one, which concerned the home renovation scheme. There are two ways of doing this. The Canadian system did it on the basis of a non-refundable tax credit which resulted in an increase of 18% in the scale of home renovations and improvements over a two year period. The other way of doing it is in terms of a grant, which has worked in a number of areas here. What we propose is a grant of perhaps 20% for renovations costing between €3,000 and €20,000. If a person was to institute home improvements that cost perhaps €10,000 he or she would get a grant of 20%, namely, €2,000. It would have to be done within a fixed period of two or three years and, as we stated, could only be done by people who are fully tax compliant. That is the basis we would propose.

I am not sure about the US system but the Canadian one was a refundable tax credit. The benefit of having a grant system is that one would know exactly what the cost would be. The initial exposure of the State is clear in advance but, as we noted, the return to the State is that it would be a net beneficiary.

The second question was on funding investment. Does Mr. O'Brien have a comment on that?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

It depends on the nature of the infrastructure projects. For some schemes funding tends to flow quickly, particularly in areas where we have a good track record such as the schools bundles, for example. The projects are well set up and there is a good track record in that we have been through a number of them already.

If one looks at very large ambitious projects such as the metro, the time scales become much more challenging in regard to seeing funding come on board. Across Europe there has been a significant increase in PPP activity in the past few years but we have not seen this in Ireland because of the difficulty in the sovereign position. However, if we continue to make progress we should be able to get back into the market, particularly if we can continue to get some additional support from the European Investment Bank. There are options but crucially we need to be able to put our hands on additional cash injections from outside the State. That is one of the areas we must continue to look at.

On the pensions issue, Deputy Ryan is right in that we do not support the opening up of occupational schemes, for a range of reasons. A large proportion of these schemes have serious funding problems in regard to defined benefit and defined contribution schemes. Many are probably inadequate for people's retirement needs and therefore we do not believe it would be a good idea to open up the main occupational schemes. The additional add-on schemes do not come with the same risks in terms of adequacy for savings on retirement, or with regard to funds not being used wisely.

In regard to the financial sector, I reiterate there is a need to consider a code of practice in order to specify that people would not use more than, say, 20% or 25% of what they draw down for paying back debt because it would be pointless in terms of a stimulus measure if all the money went straight back into the banks for debt repayment and did not support new activity. Again, however, one of the pots of money that is outside the State could be brought back and spent and this would make a lot of sense for a lot of people. We put some of these ideas in the public domain and members of the public contacted us, describing their individual circumstances. They described how they had a business, they put this amount of money into a pension fund but they are now living on social welfare payments and have all this money tied up in a pension fund outside the country. It seems crazy to them. For many people this would be a very sensible approach which would take away much of the financial stress and pressure they currently face.

Is there a built in clause whereby a person must prove adequacy and ability to tap into this? The delegates might consider that.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

If one specifies that only 25% can be drawn down, not the full pot, that would address most of the concerns about what would be adequately left for retirement purposes.

That could be considered even with occupational pensions so that if people could prove they were covered adequately they could draw money down.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

It becomes very complex and one could not start opening up defined benefit schemes. One could make an argument that some of those in final contribution schemes may have overprovided but I suspect such cases are thin on the ground.

I thank Mr. Fergal O'Brien for his interesting presentation. I agree with him that we should set up structures to attract investment from abroad in, for example, the provision of water services. The country would benefit from such investment in infrastructure.

Exports have been the star of the economy for several years. I am concerned, however, about recent reports that exports may have declined. What feedback is IBEC getting from its members in this regard? What can we expect in our export markets in the United States, the UK and Europe?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

From August last year, several companies saw a significant slowdown in exports. Many said that when they came back from holidays, their customers did not. However, it is sector specific. Several sectors, such as pharmaceuticals, medical devices, food and drinks and traded services, are performing strongly in exports and are immune to the European downturn. When discussing exports, we tend to focus on manufactured products but traded services are now nearly equal in value.

The slowdown is in the more traditional sectors such as metal engineering, plastics and components supply to the European automobile industry. While there will be export growth this year, it will not be as strong as it was for several years. Ireland is growing market share because it is much more competitive than it was four years ago. The challenge we will face in the export market is nothing like the challenge faced in 2008 and 2009 when global trade fell by 15%.

It will be difficult in the UK and European markets but there is a silver lining as exchange rates will move more in our favour this year. The over-valued euro in the past two years caused many problems for exporters. By the end of the year we may see the euro-dollar exchange rate back in the teens which will help with volumes of exports. It will also help with the money size of the economy. Last year, while there was some growth in gross domestic product, its money value was still falling, partly due to the euros earned on exports. This will also assist in meeting our commitments on budget deficit targets with the troika. It is not all glum but for some sectors it is more challenging than it was 12 months ago.

I have been contacted by several small businesses about tenders and how they have people employed full-time just filling them out. Is it possible to cut the amount of red tape these companies face? While I accept the point about European transparency, we need to help those small businesses in dealing with red tape. Legislation to deal with late payments which affect small businesses such as construction companies and small retailers would be helpful to them.

Regarding the public versus private sector debate, every time I hear IBEC on the radio and television, it criticises public servants. IBEC also speaks about confidence in and positive communication about the economy. It must be remembered public servants have spending power and their partners may be private sector workers. IBEC referred to house renovations and improvement, for example, as a stimulus for the domestic economy. Many public servants own their own homes which may need to be renovated. It must be remembered they are also spenders and IBEC is not engendering confidence in them if it attacks them every time it is on radio or television. Such criticism sends out a divisive and wrong message. Why does IBEC do this? If the IBEC members opposite feel I am unfair, I would be glad if they set me right.

I will second that one.

Mr. Brendan Butler

IBEC has been consistent in calling for high-quality public services delivered at the most efficient cost. It is not in anyone's interest to be engaged in public servant bashing. While IBEC has not deliberately set out to do this, some of our messaging has been interpreted as a direct attack on public servants. We engage every day with public servants and find the majority of them to be totally professional and committed to their jobs. What we try to do is separate the people providing the service against what we ultimately want, which is a top-quality range of services provided by committed people.

A range of instruments in place, such as the Croke Park agreement and local government efficiency reviews, have set out a roadmap for the public service. IBEC believes these need to be monitored closely to see if they deliver the changes required.

From time to time, we come across traditional arrangements which we feel would be out of line in any modern economy. We feel certain annual leave arrangements, for example, are inappropriate for this type of economy. Even a number of public servants themselves feel these traditional practices need to be dealt with.

IBEC does have issues about certain arrangements when compared to what private sector companies have had to do in the past several years. We accept all public servants have taken pay cuts of between 12% and 14%. This has also happened in the private sector. In several cases, however, those pay cuts have been restored in the public sector through annual increments. It has been claimed increments only apply to lower paid public servants. In fact, they actually apply right up to assistant secretary general level. In the current economic environment, we are not sure this can be justified. It certainly does not happen in the private sector. It is not public sector bashing, just reality. Ultimately, IBEC wants good quality public services provided at a sustainable cost.

I also want a good quality private service. When I go into, say, a shop, I hope the private employee will provide a good service.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

The tendering process is very complex for companies. Smaller companies tend to encounter real problems with the process while larger companies have specialists who do nothing else but complete tenders. IBEC has made several suggestions to the Government on how to tackle these obstacles for small companies. Better pre-procurement engagement is crucial in this regard. We accept once the process starts, a strict set of rules is needed. However, in advance of a process, there is greater opportunity for more collaboration and engagement between potential bidders and public bodies so that they can better understand their customer needs and engage in a practical, meaningful way in terms of what is needed and what is involved. Essentially, it is about a greater commitment from public agencies to partnership and collaboration around the procurement process and looking at the issues that are causing problems, in particular for small companies and to try to structure the tenders to help remedy some of the challenges small companies face, in particular, to favour joint bids and such measures. We regularly see significant tenders go outside the State. If there are cost reasons, then so be it but if it is because of some inflexibility in the tendering process, then that is a shame.

Most of our members say late payments in the public sector is largely not a problem at this stage but for some companies with the credit crisis we have seen in recent years, payment days have been increasing. There is no question about that but that is just a function of the tight credit conditions we have in the economy.

I welcome Mr. Butler and Mr. O'Brien. It has been an interesting and stimulating discussion. Mr. O'Brien acknowledged that Ireland has become much more competitive in recent years. Are there still obstacles that need to be tackled to make it easier for people to employ additional staff in their businesses? He referred to the strength of exports, particularly agrifood exports. We have a significant number of successful companies. Should we try to do something to encourage them to employ additional people? I acknowledge there must be more work to employ additional people but if they increase their numbers beyond a certain figure, should an incentive be provided for them to employ more staff, particularly in this time of crisis when we need to focus our attention on generating employment?

The budget contained sensible measures to encourage people to purchase their own homes. However, some people will never be in a position to purchase a home because their incomes will not be high enough and they will be unable to obtain finance from banks. IBEC has a home improvements initiative and I have a suggestion that could be married to it. Some people may wish to extend the family home to cater for a son or daughter or other relative who wants to buy a home but cannot afford to do so. He or she would probably end up on a local authority housing list and be in receipt of a rent subsidy. If there was an incentive to build an extension to add a room or two to the family home, significant economic activity could be generated. While it would be cheaper for the children because the parents would assist them to provide the accommodation, in the long term, a further benefit could obtain. As parents get older, there will be somebody around to provide support to keep them in their homes longer and reduce nursing home care. There is an ability to do this, particularly in rural areas where sites are extensive. Given the economic circumstances, we should examine every means of reducing the cost to the State of providing accommodation to people and to provide an incentive to families to review their accommodation needs to facilitate a child or sibling to live attached to, or adjacent to, the family home.

Mr. Brendan Butler

I will deal with the competitiveness issue. All the international evidence suggests that we have improved our competitive position in the past two or three years. We moved from being probably a high cost economy for business to operate in to being somewhat more competitive and we are getting the bounce from that in our improved export performance. Many areas of our cost base remain uncompetitive. They tend to break down between pay and non-pay elements. Pay has generally been flat or reduced for many companies but we had come from a base where people were being paid well by international standards, which impacted on our ability to trade internationally.

There could be improvements in competitiveness in a number of non-pay elements. We tend to hear from many businesses that energy costs are a major issue as are local authority charges, although our evidence suggests that many local authorities have at least begun to freeze their costs. However, there is room from improvement and we need to increase our competitive ability because, ultimately, as a small, open economy, we are hugely dependent on exports.

The Senator referred to successful Irish companies and their capacity to employ additional people. We need to subdivide that. Companies that are heavily export oriented such as CRH, Smurfit Kappa, Glanbia or Kerry Group provide substantial employment here but because they are product based, they can only provide employment to serve the Irish market. If a company wants to serve the US market, its job capacity will be generated in the US or close to the US. The capacity of companies that manufacture goods to increase employment here will mainly centre on the management of the company or engaging in research and development. We are seeing some progress on that. There is capacity in the services sector and there has been substantial growth in employment in companies such as Paddy Power, which employs more than 1,000 people in Ireland. The Senator needs to differentiate between the two. In this environment, people will not create jobs for the sake of it. They only create jobs if there is a benefit.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

It is crucial that the Government prioritises job creation. Another jobs initiative will be announced this month but the budget we just had was not a pro-employment budget. A number of measures are a cost or a tax on jobs and they will mean companies will employ fewer people this year, unfortunately. Every Bill and fiscal or financial measure brought forward needs to be job proofed to see what impact it will have on employment. If an honest appraisal was done on the impact of the budget on employment, unfortunately it would be quite negative. The increase in employer's PRSI is a tax on jobs. The significant reduction in the redundancy rebate will mean international investors will say it is more expensive to employ people in Ireland because they will have to factor that into their employment costs. We need to be aware of those issues and to do a proper appraisal up front of the employment impact of new measures.

The Senator's proposal regarding extending family homes for other family members makes perfect sense. It is the kind of thing that the measure we are talking about could easily be used for. That would generate additional activity.

For enterprise development, it is generally understood that State tenders should be reduced in size to make them more accessible to smaller businesses and Irish businesses as well. There is an articulation of that policy by the Government. However, there is another stress on the Government in that the concern to reduce costs leads to central procurement, which can often lead to increased size tenders, which rule out small businesses and, very often, Irish businesses. For example, there has been an increase in the Bord Gáis tender, which I believe is some €750 million and has been won by a joint venture which is mostly outside of Ireland. This rules out the smaller providers in that sector.

What is the experience of IBEC and its members with regard to tenders, in particular their size and accessibility? What advice would IBEC give the Government with regard to centralising procurement while still developing tenders which are broken into segments that can be accessed by small Irish businesses?

Mr. Brendan Butler

This whole issue of the relationship between the public and private sectors is critical. Given the challenges the public sector faces, it is our view the private sector has a lot to offer in terms of its own expertise and arrangements. We have been working with the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform around this whole issue of the relationship between the private sector and public sector, in particular dealing with issues such as procurement. While the Government recently introduced new guidelines to help SMEs apply for contracts, that is not nearly enough. There is no doubt that the public and private sectors, working together and looking at some of the practices that happen internationally, could provide some real benefits to both sectors.

I will give two practical examples. In Ireland, if prisoners are being brought from Portlaoise Prison to the Courts Service in Dublin today, they will be brought in a State vehicle with three or four very highly paid prison officers who are taken away from their core job, practically for the full day, to service the movement of prisoners into the courts system. In the UK, this is done by the private sector, where a private company has an agreement with the courts service and prison service to transport the prisoners. There is a much lower cost and it means a prison officer can get on with his or her day job, for which he or she is professionally trained. It also gives much greater value to the public sector.

The other example from the UK relates to a person arrested for a drink driving offence. In Ireland, a garda would bring such a person to the Garda station and would probably have to spend several hours dealing with paperwork and all that is required, so that garda is taken away from his or her core duty, which is perhaps to be out on the streets protecting the public. When such a situation arises in the UK, the police officer arrests the person but would bring him or her to a centre that is operated by the private sector, which would do all the paperwork and testing and meet the mandatory requirements of the laws of the land, while the police officer is back out doing his or her job within 30 minutes or an hour. These are practical examples of how we can develop a relationship between the public and private sector that generates benefits to the public sector and allows key people in our public service to concentrate on their core job.

To return to the issue of the specific tender to which the Deputy referred, given the scale of that tender, it would have to be open at a European level. The Government is obviously sensitive to the needs of SMEs and, therefore, we have had these rules or guidelines to help SMEs tender for contracts, so we need to examine whether these are actually working. In terms of scale, I am not sure if it will be possible for the public service to begin breaking down large tenders into smaller components, or even whether it is possible in terms of EU guidelines. The key overall message on this is that the private sector needs to work more closely with Government to try to create a win-win situation so everybody can benefit. Going back to the earlier question about having high quality public services at a sustainable cost, there are many areas in which we can make progress that will benefit the public sector.

On that, the Bord Gáis contract is replacing contracts which were smaller and which were delivered by Irish companies. It has migrated up to a level which is preventing smaller businesses from tendering.

On a final question, in regard to trying to get pension funds to commit more money to Irish projects, has IBEC investigated the legality of this in terms of the workings of pension funds? Are they allowed to invest more in Ireland or do we need to change the law? My understanding is that we need to work on the law to allow this to happen. It is something we want to do and which we have been talking about for years, and it is in the programme for Government. Has IBEC undertaken much research on this aspect?

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

The main obstacle will be the risk portfolio management of the asset managers and their concerns about having an excessive exposure to the Irish State. There are things that could be done in terms of incentive schemes and the like that could potentially offset some of that risk factor. Some innovative thinking is needed.

IBEC is happy enough with that aspect.

Mr. Fergal O’Brien

Yes.

I thank the witnesses for a worthwhile discussion. We had hoped to have this meeting before the budget but it is still useful to consider making a move on some of these issues for the coming year. The committee will hopefully engage more often with IBEC in the coming years.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 January 2012.
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