JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 May 2012

Educational Disadvantage: Discussion

Vice Chairman

I welcome both groups to today's meeting. From youngballymun we have Ms Eleanor McClorey, CEO, and Ms Hazel O'Byrne, projects officer. From the National College of Ireland we have Dr. Philip Matthews, president, Mr. Dan O'Connor, member of the review board, early learning initiative and Dr. Josephine Bleach, director, early learning initiative. The witnesses are all very welcome. As they may be aware the committee covers issues under the remit of three Departments and our members are particularly interested in educational disadvantage. We are pleased the witnesses could attend today to discuss their initiatives.

I will inform those present of the position on privilege. I will read out the rights of witnesses before they get to say anything. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentations I will outline for the committee the basis on which the invitation was made. A report is being done by me and other members – Deputy John Lyons is involved as well – on educational disadvantage outside of the formal school system. We sent an invitation to the Department to talk about DEIS but that is not necessarily the focus of the report because educational disadvantage is social disadvantaged transferred to schools. On that basis we wish to talk to the witnesses about the community element of their work, the research element of it, the breaking down of educational disadvantage in the community and preschool and after-school activities. That is the focus of the report. We do not wish necessarily to get into what happens in school time because children do not live in schools and it is the communities from which they come that have a massive role to play in addressing the problems that exist in terms of educational disadvantage. With that preamble I invite Ms McClorey to begin her presentation.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

Thank you, Chairman. My name is Eleanor McClorey, chief executive of youngballymun. I warmly thank the committee for the invitation to address it this morning on the theme of driving an area-based approach to prevention and early intervention. This input gives us an opportunity to provide the committee with some features on youngballymun's model of work and some early indications of the kind of outcomes we are achieving in the strategy we are implementing in Ballymun.

First, I wish to say a little bit about the context and rationale underpinning the imperative facing Government to implement a comprehensive, area-wide, evidence-based approach to tackling child poverty. We know that social exclusion, poverty and intergenerational disadvantage has major impacts on the life outcomes of children and families. There are significant child rights and social justice imperatives that demand action from Government on child poverty. We know some of those outcomes only too well: early school leaving; adolescent parenthood; unemployment and lack of capacity to secure employment even if the economic recession were to come to an end and new opportunities were to be generated; social welfare dependency and with that, ill health including significantly higher levels of mental health issues, addiction and risk of engagement in criminal activity. This spectrum of connected outcomes imposes heavy burdens on children, families and communities but also on the State and its expenditure.

One of the key reasons that the cycle of intergenerational poverty is being replicated at community and neighbourhood level is because we are not investing in the right types of evidence-based approaches to support to families early enough in life and we are not doing that with sufficient consistency and spread. While financial transfers in terms of unemployment benefit and other related social welfare supports have an essential role to play in addressing poverty, it is vital to tackle intergenerational issues and the structural cause and effect mechanisms that are at work. We need to address those through whole-community integrated service strategies. The model which I introduce to the committee this morning is an active one that is currently being implemented. It is also being thoroughly and rigorously researched in terms of its outcomes for children and families.

Area-based integrated, comprehensive approaches are critical because we know that disadvantage is heavily concentrated in certain geographical areas and that individual and family negative impacts are affected by neighbourhood effects. Personal issues are compounded by neighbourhood disadvantage.

Despite significant State investment - the State makes large investments in areas of disadvantage, and in anti-poverty strategies - these initiatives are less effective than they should be for a number of critical reasons. There is very poor design of interventions and there is no integration at community level or across the life cycle. Minimal resources are targeted, in particular at the nought to three years and three years to five years age groups. No significant initiatives are targeted at supporting parents and children, child development, language development, social and emotional development from birth and giving parents the capacity to support their child's development.

There is a focus on crisis response. Yesterday I was at a meeting where there was a discussion of child runners for drug barons aged ten and eleven. That kind of statement will get a lot of attention and anxiety levels will go up but it is at the expense of careful considered reflection on promotion of well-being, prevention and early intervention.

There is a visible absence of an evidence-based culture in service planning. We do not ask where the evidence is for underpinning the strategies in which the State is investing. There is a complete dislocation between funding strategies and service development is therefore weak and outcomes for children and families are poor. As a result, it is evident to those of us who work in and live in and are based in disadvantaged communities, that there is a real disconnect between children and families and services that are set up to support them. Families experience fear and distrust in particular of certain statutory services that could be of enormous benefit to them were they to be reconfigured and restructured.

The programme for Government acknowledges the importance of drawing on a strong evidence base and reconfiguring existing services to fundamentally reform our approach to child poverty. The commitment was reiterated by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste in the recent review of priorities for Government action in 2012 to 2013. They prioritised the implementation of an area-based strategy to tackle child poverty. We are presenting the youngballymun model as one working model of that integrated approach.

I will draw this part of the presentation to a close by describing some of the fundamental characteristics of an area-based model to tackle child poverty to which Government at the highest level has already given its commitment to implement in this calendar year between March 2012 and March 2013. The life cycle response if fundamental. We must start with an integrated service plan from pregnancy and birth and it must bring the key statutory and community sector providers together. We must consider building protective structures and setting a strong foundation for family life and child development from pregnancy and birth. The international and growing national evidence to support this is incontrovertible and extremely strong.

I will be happy to talk later in more detail and answer questions on the strategies we have in place to work with those aged between nought and three. From this solid start, we must continue to implement effective supports at key points in a child's journey through life. The negative structural impacts across the life cycle on children growing up in areas of extreme disadvantage do not stop at three. Therefore, the strategy must continue across the life cycle, but it must be built on the aforementioned very strong foundation.

The evidence base for the investment the State is making is critical. Every intervention of youngballymun has a strong international evidence base to support it. Particuarly in this time of economic crisis, the Government must invest in what we know will work and deliver results for children and families.

Changing outcomes for children absolutely requires building the capacity of everyone interacting significantly with children so they can deliver much enhanced supports to the child in terms of health and development, mental health, language and literacy. This primarily involves parents' input but, alongside them, there should be early years providers, family support workers, public health nurses, speech and language therapists. The process should continue into primary school, which subject the committee is not addressing today. The up-skilling and capacity building of staff at primary school level is critical.

Changing outcomes also means the change must be absorbed into mainstream systems. It is important to note youngballymunis a not an add-on project. It is not being achieved in parallel with the work of everybody else. The strategy is embedded in the primary care, public health, early years and teaching systems.

Our model is designed to be replicated. While it is alive and thriving and embedded in Ballymun, it travels very well. Currently, we are in active communication with a community in Cork that has expressed very significant interest in making the features of the model apply to its work.

In all our work, we have a very keen eye for cost-effectiveness, efficient delivery of services and outcomes for children and families. We are committed to delivering results and demonstrating to the State and our philanthropic funders a real return on investment. In line with this, we have two value-for-money studies, both of which are ongoing. One is a cost-benefit study to examine how we are using our own money and investment to leverage change in the statutory and community sectors. I refer to the leverage and influence of investment in youngballymun. Alongside this, a UK-based economics research firm, Just Economics, is conducting a return-on-investment study. What returns will the investment make over the project period? The early indication from the study is that this State can anticipate a return of perhaps €5 for every €1 invested over a life cycle of 15 to 20 years as children grow up, with their full capacity developed such that they can be active citizens and take up employment or generate employment. In this way, they will cost much less to the State in terms of social welfare transfers. We are already witnessing measurable results early in the primary school cycle, including greatly improved oral language and literacy scores.

I will be very happy to return to any of these key points in this opening presentation if the members wish to explore some of them in greater detail.

Dr. Philip Matthews

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak. I will make a brief introduction, and Mr. O'Connor, who is on the early learning review board, will follow up on it. Dr. Josephine Bleach, the director of our learning initiative, will do 80% of the talking.

NCI's early learning initiative is a community-based educational initiative aimed at addressing educational disadvantage in the Dublin docklands. We are convinced the key to addressing educational disadvantage is working with preschool or early years children and their parents and child care workers – in essence, with the community – to raise the educational capital and the aspirations of the community as a whole. Much of what we have to say mirrors what the youngballymun representatives said.

The early learning initiative has created a structure within the community that supports and encourages early years learning. These structures are resourced by people within the community and, as a result, the initiative enjoys a level of trust and engagement from parents, children, child care workers and local schools that has enabled the initiative to achieve transformational outcomes.

Mr. Dan O’Connor

Early childhood is the stage where education can most effectively influence the development of children. The first three years of life comprise a period of rapid brain development when a child's thinking and language structures are being built into the brain. At three years of age, there are already big differences in language and mathematical development among children from rich and poor backgrounds. This committee probably has much data thrown at it. If it is to remember one datum today, it is that, throughout the world, when a child from a rich background reaches the age of three, he will have, on average, 1,200 words. A child from a poor background will have 450 words and will never catch up. Therefore, the key is to intervene early so as not to allow the trend I have described. The gap widens if it is not addressed before children start preschool. Research from a wide range of countries shows that not only does early intervention contribute significantly to the education of children from disadvantaged backgrounds but it also helps them throughout their school years.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

The first DEIS action plan concentrated on children from age three upwards but we feel that one must start from pregnancy and birth, as Ms McClorey would say. Central to young children's learning is high-quality adult interactions and a challenging and stimulating learning environment, not just in school but also at home. This is probably the most unresearched aspect of any part of education.

When we started with the early learning initiative, an initial survey was conducted for us by the Dartington Social Research Unit and it found that while parents had high aspirations for their children, they did not have the educational capital to support them from early years to third level. As a result, children were missing out along the way. Parents may have made a mistake, sometimes a simple one.

Our focus has been on supporting parents to develop their children's social, language and thinking skills from an early age, thereby ensuring that children enter school ready to learn and with the skills they need to be successful throughout their education. Our programmes involve parent-toddler groups, parenting courses and professional development for early childhood care and education practitioners. Our main programme is the parent-child home programme. Of all the early learning initiative's programmes, that is the one which has the most influence on the home learning environment. It is about a culture shift and changing how parents talk, play and read to their children at home. Originally from the United States, it is an innovative home-based literacy and parenting programme that strengthens families and prepares children aged from 18 months to three years to succeed academically. Over a two-year period, home visitors model oral language, reading and play in their twice-weekly visits. The families then continue the activities in their own time, thereby enabling the child in the programme and, as the Trinity College research has found, his or her siblings to develop their language, literacy and numeracy skills. Parents in the PCHP are learning - they tell us this all the time - how to give their children something they never had as a child. They were never read to as children and sometimes their parents lacked the time or skills to play with them but they now are able to do that for their children.

More than 20 years of rigorous research has demonstrated the programme's success in various areas of the United States. The evaluation of PCHP in the docklands by the children's research centre, Trinity College, has highlighted the positive impact of the programme on the families involved. Parents learned a different and more enjoyable approach to reading and playing with their children. Children were developing normally for their age, with the PCHP benefits extending to other family members. In this context, one case cited in the research noted a great fringe benefit in respect of an older child who was in absolutely in no way, shape or form interested in words or reading and who at the outset, when the younger child started the programme, was not able to read. However, he has been getting better at school and reading and now is quite good. The manner in which this happened was that on the day the home visitor would call, he would rush home from school to find out what the younger child had got. The entire family would sit down to talk, read and play together, which is the entire point of the programme, thereby improving the skills both of the younger child and the entire family. There are 80 families in the programme at present and a waiting list for September 2012 of 100.

The PCHP home visitors are all local people, mostly early school leavers, who have been trained and employed by the National College of Ireland, NCI, to deliver the programme. Two are them are present in the Public Gallery and members can see them in their uniforms. When wearing those uniforms, they are ambassadors for the early learning initiative, ELI, NCI and education on the street. People stop them and ask them for information on schools and on all sorts of education. They could be described as walking advice centres.

Mr. Dan O’Connor

In the United States and other areas in which this programme has been run, what has tended to happen is that middle class volunteer teachers would go in and back out again for the twice-weekly visits. One major and novel distinguishing aspect of this programme is that people from within the community visit homes there. This aspect of people in the community educating others has led to complete buy-in. It is a key aspect and learning the Trinity research has endorsed.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

It has created a ripple effect throughout the community with more and more people appreciating and understanding the benefits of education. Most children will attend some form of preschool and the quality of that experience will depend on the competence of the early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme staff with whom they come in contact. Since 2007, we have worked with the early years settings in the docklands, most staff members of which are early school leavers - who did not themselves have the benefit of education - to improve the quality of teaching and learning in those centres. Again, the Trinity evaluation found there were big changes in practice and the quality of the service provision for children and their parents had improved significantly.

Last year, we had the opportunity to apply for funding from the national early years access initiative. We conducted a review of what was needed and the feedback was that numeracy was what was important. Just as is the case with language, vast differences exist in children's mathematical knowledge even before they begin school. International research has demonstrated that if one lacks numeracy, one will lose out even more throughout one's life than if one lacks literacy. Unfortunately, those who are among the least advanced starting school never catch up and are most likely to give up on mathematics. Other research carried out in Ireland about drop-out levels at third level has shown that lacking mathematical skills leads to higher drop-out levels. Our early numeracy project aims to ensure that children enter school with the numeracy and mathematical skills needed for success in mathematics. Each term there is an early numeracy activity week with lots of fun, play-based activities based on mathematical themes. These activities take place at home, in the ECCE settings and in the schools. Everyone, including the PCHP home visitors, carries out the activities at the same time. In addition, there are training sessions for staff and parents and one parent stated:

It helped me to understand simple things I can do at home with my child to help improve his numeracy skills. It helped me realise the things I was not doing and wasn't aware I should be doing with my child to work on those skills.

I note parents continually make that point.

While priority is given to the early years, we also have a life-cycle approach and believe that if students are to progress through the education system, they and their parents will need the ongoing support provided in our Stretch to Learn programmes, which include various literacy and numeracy projects, the educational guidance programme in fifth and sixth classes - I must give the Vice Chairman credit for suggesting it - family celebration awards and second level tuition, along with support for third level students. This involves multiple interventions on the same street, thereby creating an excitement and interest in education.

The evaluation by the children's research centre, Trinity College, found that we have made an impact on the home learning environment of families. Learning was perceived as enjoyable and something to be shared across the family and not simply something that happened in school. The knowledge and skills of parents in the docklands had increased. Not only had ELI succeeded in deepening parents' involvement in their children's development, most parents wanted more information and more programmes to help them support their children's learning. Moreover, the educational aspirations and attainment of the children in the docklands had increased, with students in second and sixth class scoring above the norms nationally in terms of their educational aspirations, that is, with a score of 84% compared with 69% nationally, and above DEIS schools in terms of their educational attainment, with an average score of STen 5 compared with STen 4 in the Education Research Centre's DEIS evaluation.

In both the 2010-11 academic year and this year, more than 2,500 people took part in various ELI programmes in the docklands, including more than 1,000 children and 800 parents. Our approach gives the community both ownership of and a voice in the development of its programmes. This is important to us, as people tell us what they need and we work together to develop the programme. The feedback we received from participants was that ELI was fostering a learning environment where home and school learning comes together.

Dr. Phillip Matthews

At this point, the early learning initiative is approach something of a crossroads in respect of its sustainability. Heretofore, 90% of its funding has come from philanthropy but that is not really a sustainable model to maintain the level of activity and to support the increasing demand being experienced in the Dublin docklands. We are aware the Government has promised to adopt a new area based approach to child poverty. ELI is a highly cost-effective programme, which enables children, their families and the community, to acquire the skills and self-confidence needed to benefit fully from the educational system. In a disadvantaged area such as the docklands, we are aware of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Science report on early school leaving of 2010 which found that early intervention and a supportive home learning environment is critical if children and young people are to achieve their full potential. Unlike other areas, ELI is considered to be the last remaining community support in the docklands in this respect and must be included in the new area-based approach to child poverty, which is part of the programme for Government. Just like the witnesses from youngballymun, we would be delighted to answer any further questions members might have on the early learning initiative. I again thank the joint committee for this opportunity.

Vice Chairman

I thank the witnesses for two interesting and excellent presentations. Deputy Smith will be the first member to ask questions, to be followed by Deputies Conaghan, Mitchell O'Connor and Butler.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join the Vice Chairman in welcoming all the witnesses to the meeting and note the presentations were fascinating. Dr. Bleach's comments about the pupils' attainments who had participated in the early learning initiatives sends a clear message to all of us about the success of the programme. She mentioned the United States model for the PCHP, parent-child home programme. Have programmes initiated to deal with disadvantage in communities in other countries been examined too? Has the youngballymun project examined other programmes? The documentation the committee received stated the parent-child psychological support programme commenced in 2009. Did the youngballymun commence then or earlier?

Ms Eleanor McClorey

We started our service-design phase just before that point. Subsequently, 2009 was the point at which the full service was implemented which is a whole-community child health psychological development clinic that is embedded in the public health service in Ballymun with the public health nurse and primary care teams. This whole-community intervention with all new-borns which has a particular focus on those early years was brought in from Spain. Professor Angeles Cerezo, University of Valencia, who developed the programme many years ago, brought it to Ireland via Trinity College Dublin. It was embedded in Tallaght in a pilot project with the Health Service Executive, HSE. We subsequently looked at the research base for that and are now implementing it on a whole-community strategy. The Geary Institute in UCD is conducting a rigorous evaluation of child outcomes, the findings of which will be available next January. There are currently 800 babies and toddlers enrolled in the programme.

Deputy Brendan Smith

For all the programmes, it is clear one needs good co-operation and buy-in from the relevant statutory agencies, be it the Department of Education and Skills, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the HSE at local level and Dublin City Council.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

With this age group, we need good buy-in particularly with service providers, the HSE, the Department of Health and others.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Is there a good feeling of ownership by the communities in question of the different facilities that have been developed? I represent a rural constituency which would be very different in this respect to a large urban conurbation. With a better feeling of ownership, there is always a greater participation and outcome for the parents and the children. My understanding is that there has been a substantial development of child care facilities in the general Dublin docklands area. Have they become real community facilities or are they just seen as provided?

Dr. Josephine Bleach

Throughout the year we have various events at National College Ireland, NCI. The docklands is almost turning into what a rural parish is like, particularly around the parent-child home programme where everyone from grannies, granddads, aunts and uncles, mother and child participates in these events at the NCI. Part of our strength lies in community ownership and the various links made between all service providers. This includes public health nurses who provide referrals and supports for the PCHP, the managers and staff in the early years settings, primary and second level schools and the NCI as a third level provider. When we applied for the national early years access initiative funding, we had to have a consortium of 17 local community providers. We looked for a working group of 17 which is now 30 such was the interest. People come together to plan the programmes. We do research on what is happening internationally. Based on the international research, on what people in the community tell us they need and what is best for their community, we then plan the programme. That is the way we work.

For example, with numeracy, we started off by asking them what was the problem, what did children need to learn and what did we need to work on first. When we established that, we devised the programme. We did that the first term. We came back the second term and again talked to people to find out what had worked, what had not worked and what we needed to improve so that these children would have the same mathematical skills as children everywhere by the time they start school.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

I reiterate and support what Dr. Bleach said about what we call local service design but which sounds very similar to the process in the docklands where one gathers one's key interests together before one does anything. One also significantly engages with one's local community - really talk to people and really engage at local level. One must talk to families and ask parents what is not working, what they want to see working differently and what they see as the barriers and the difficulties. They are invariably right about the things that need to change. Local early years providers and local teachers are also critical sources of information.

In our case, we called it service design but it sounds like a very similar process. One must bring the interests together, really explore the difficulty, unpack the difficulty and then look at the international and national evidence base. One should make one's plan based on local need matched with evidence of what works and evidence of what will deliver a return. Then one can start the rigorous process of implementing that with fidelity to the practices that demonstrably deliver the returns.

In our case, we place a major focus on training and capacity building with, as Dr. Bleach and others have said, significant participation by parents across the life cycle but particularly nought to three and three to five. Talking about nought to three, talk and play everyday are strategies to really develop oral language. The numeracy development is very much linked to language development, brain development and organic development of the child - the interaction, the relationship and the attachment process with the key carers and others. Those processes stimulate brain development and have allowed all of us to function and learn. If or when they are impaired, our functioning becomes impaired. It is really a whole-community learning and change strategy for all of us with practitioners, parents and everybody learning about that process together.

In youngballymun, we invest very significantly in training capacity building with local community partners and the statutory sector. It is a ten-year change strategy. We believe there is already significant investment in ongoing systems. It is about those systems working much more effectively and in a much more integrated way moving forward. It is about embedding that expertise in those systems and really working with them to do that.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the witnesses. What they said was very interesting but I wish to put my own take on it if they do not mind. In the transmission of culture generally in society, the home and the community are a dynamic presence in the lives of young people. When it comes to teaching formal skills, such as literacy and numeracy, the community and the family hold back because they believe this is the work of experts and professionals in the classroom. The dynamic that is present in the transmission of general culture is weakened and remains dormant. What Ms McClorey is doing, and it is something in which I believe strongly, is re-harnessing the abilities of the family and the community in the transmission of specific skills that are prized in the schools and educational sector to a point where the community and parents can act as equal partners with schools and professionals to round off that dynamic in the lives of young people

Vice Chairman

I will bank some questions and come back after a while. Is Deputy Conaghan finished? Is he happy?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I am not happy.

Vice Chairman

It was not a general question.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I am quite satisfied.

Vice Chairman

Is Deputy Conaghan happy that he has made his contribution?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

When I know the answer, I will tell the Vice Chairman.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

I welcome the witnesses, especially Dr. Josephine Bleach, who I met in a different life. It has been edifying listening to them. We all know that what they spoke of, the child from birth to three years old, is where we are losing out in educational terms. One of the witnesses said every mother has considerable expectations when her child enrols, that the world is her child's oyster, and yet within three weeks of schooling, we can write the CV. I compliment the witnesses on their work in this regard.

I particularly liked what was said about embedding. We continually have different systems and ideas and we roll out an initiative one year and another five years later. How are the children identified in the context of what the witnesses outlined? We are talking about those who are disadvantaged and I do not know how one identifies mothers of children aged from birth up to three years who would be in this category. Even in advantaged areas there are many disadvantaged homes, and it is a case of identifying those. I would have experience of children over five whose parents did not come to the school and who avoided parent-teacher meetings because they often felt under pressure. How are the parents of children aged from birth to three years old identified and how are initiatives aimed at them embedded? When that cohort is dealt with after a few years, how is the next set identified?

Deputy Ray Butler

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have been involved with many boards of management in schools, parents' associations and the Youthreach programme in Kells, Navan and Trim in County Meath. Dr. Bleach spoke of early school-leavers. I have been involved with boards of management in secondary schools where children did not settle in to the mainstream school and many would have been expelled. Some parents would have been out of their wits in the belief that this was the end of their child's future because mainstream school did not suit the child and they did not know where else they could go with him or her. One or two of these children would have been brought into the Youthreach system by community workers and this would have brought them back into the education system in another way. I wanted to promote Youthreach in mainstream schools but many doors were closed. I do not know why we got a negative reaction from mainstream schools. We wanted teachers from Youthreach to be involved and they had no difficulty in going to mainstream schools but we were met by closed doors. We ended up down a dead end. I have seen young people from Youthreach progress, and one of them became a manager in Supermac's. Mainstream school does not suit everybody. How do we break down these barriers to which I have referred?

It is delightful to see these ladies at the meeting. The greatest difficulty is to spread the information that if mainstream school does not suit one's child, there is another opportunity to educate him or her. The Ballymun project is excellent. The one word that sticks out is "embed". We must embed many of these programmes in mainstream schools, something that is not happening.

Vice Chairman

We will return to our guest to respond to the issues raised.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

I agree with all of the members. The main issue is about changing culture. That is why we have 19 home visitors, all of whom are local women, and they would act as ambassadors. If we want to recruit at this stage, it is a case of self-referral in that people are coming to us as a result of word of mouth. The women meet people in the street who tell them they want to be in the programme, or a person who is in another person's house and notices the difference between their child and the child in that house who has been in the programme and whose language has really come on will ask how they get this for their child and will come to the National College of Ireland. That central third level institution is important because it gives it status to the programme and to the women. They are employed by a third level education programme to deliver an education programme.

We work closely with schools, the early years settings and especially with the parent-child home programme and public health nurses. The programme is in north and south Dublin. We divide it along the Liffey. Public health nurses would be a source of referral. At the 18 month visit or earlier, they would notice children whose language would not have developed and for whom they cannot get speech and language therapy services. They find the parent-child home programme works.

The problem Deputy Butler encountered with Youthreach is mirrored to some degree by our experience, for example, the early years do not want to talk to primary schools. When Trinity College conducted the initial evaluation and spoke to primary school principals and other stakeholders, it found these people believed they were talking to each other already, even though we believed we had not embarked on a formal programme. It is a case of getting people together in a room for different kinds of occasions, such as celebrations and meetings. We meet all our stakeholders every year and will do so on 14 June. We will sit down and decide what worked well last year, what we need to do next year, and how we ensure this life-cycle approach whereby a child experiences continuity and progression in learning from the beginning right through the system and parents are aware of the pitfalls.

Parent pressure is a key factor. We have improved the educational capital of the parents whereby they have access to a resource in the home visitors who are informal and local. When I did my research on parent involvement, all middle class parents had their own teacher friends to whom they went for support and advice. This was a person who perhaps lived down the road or was on the other end of the telephone. They did not have to let the school know they were going for this support and advice. Similarly, all the women and men - quite a few men are involved in the programme - in the docklands have an informal source of advice whom they can meet on the street or in their home and whom they can ask for information, as a result of which we will access it for them.

Mr. Dan O’Connor

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor asked a great question about how one starts this. It is difficult at the beginning. Why would one of the family say he or she is silly because he or she does not know how to do this? That is a difficult to do. As we keep emphasising, it was done through people in the community who are non-threatening. In the first few years, some of the children and families on the programme were probably over-qualified. Now that we have the programme up and running, we have a waiting list, and the families on the programme are the right target group. The difficult part is the first few years and the trick to dealing with that is to use people in the community who are non-threatening to whom the people refer. It becomes successful then over time.

The reason we welcome the opportunity of attending this meeting is because this is a fragile programme. Once it starts, it cannot be turned off. One cannot decide to stop this programme and come back in a few years time. One is committed to the community. Once it starts, one must stick with it. That is one of the key messages we want to get across to the committee.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

I fully support that. Deputy Conaghan made a wonderful distinction between the formal and informal, and the transfer of culture transmitted through the family. He may be aware of the work of Dr. Tim Shanahan, the international literacy expert based in Chicago, who does a considerable amount of work with us in youngballymun and more widely in Ireland. His trawl of the international research demonstrates that the middle-class family does not hold back from the formal teaching. Observational studies have confirmed that middle-class families will actively teach their children from the start. The more disadvantaged or working-class family people who have not gone on to third level or may not have completed secondary school will see the teacher and the educational system in a very different way. It would be similar to me meeting a health specialist and feeling I know nothing about that area and am talking to the expert.

For families in lower-income communities, the expertise that belongs with education is almost like a separate sector. They felt it should not encroach into family life because they might do it wrong and impair their child's learning by getting involved. We had an incredible workshop with families in Ballymun. Dr. Tim Shanahan addressed a full auditorium about the importance of not worrying about getting it wrong. They should just get stuck in there and really encourage their child's learning and development the whole way through. Building the family as a loving learning environment from pregnancy and birth onwards is a key part of that cultural development change which gives empowerment. From our work in Ballymun we know that families, if given the opportunity, will really engage.

The second question was on identifying children. Ours is a whole-community model - an anti-poverty model, focused entirely on areas of very significant disadvantage, which is where we recommend our model be replicated. It would be fantastic to have it throughout Ireland, but that is for another time further down the road. Regarding how to identify the children, in Ballymun approximately 3% of children go on to third level education, which is a staggering fact. Therefore, every child in Ballymun and similar communities because of the neighbourhood effect and not just because of personal family circumstances is at much higher risk of not achieving his or her full potential and not being given an opportunity to contribute to society in full as an active citizen in the way that children from more advantaged communities are. Therefore, we have a whole-community strategy. Every one of our services is embedded in mainstream systems that engage all children and families.

The challenge obviously was to get parents to sign up for an optional parent-child psychological support programme where they will be actively monitored from birth in their interaction with their children, and their children's attachment process will be carefully monitored. Attachment is the fundamental bedrock for healthy development. As a society we need to learn to support primary attachment if we are to develop a healthy foundation from which we can learn and also from which we can tackle our addictions and compulsions as a society.

At the moment seven out of every ten parents of newborn babies turn up on a voluntary basis for this incredibly intensive programme. Of the other three, some people are just busy or working. It is not an issue for them and is not about need. Our concern is that in the three there may also be some children who are particularly vulnerable and at risk. We have a particular strategy with our local drugs task force, public health nurse, primary care system and others to investigate in such instances. Our research also looks closely at the make-up of the three. In terms of community change in culture, actively supporting the development trajectory of seven out of ten families from birth will have a significant measurable impact.

The third question was about how to embed change in systems. It is necessary to engage in dialogue and listen to each other. I was very struck by Deputy Butler's observation about Youthreach, to which I will return later. Everybody needs to listen to others' contributions. Members have knowledge from their perspective on the political system and other systems. It is really important that their expertise is listened to. We have our perspectives and families have their perspectives on those systems. That all needs to be drawn together. Committees such as this invite witnesses to appear before them. The members listen to them respectfully and allow them to make sense by drawing on evidence. The number of people who will turn away from such an opportunity to change can be counted on the fingers of one hand and they really need to be pursued and questioned.

In the case of youngballymun, this systems change has been achieved without any pressure from the top. It is not yet Government policy and has not yet been embedded in the Government's agenda. It is in the programme for Government, but has not been translated into driving imperatives. That kind of imperative would only assist change such as the change we are trying to achieve.

Ms Hazel O’Byrne

Significant in that process of embedding was, as Ms McClorey said, bringing people around the table, but also collectively analysing the issues at play in Ballymun, engaging with the evidence and jointly developing solutions. Nobody from the outside was forcing anybody to do this. The initiatives youngballymun is driving have been identified by local community practitioners and local families as things they felt would address the issues they were facing. That has generated an atmosphere of collective ownership and responsibility for taking those on as part of their business and embedding and absorbing them in their work.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

I come to the issue of early school-leavers and the Youthreach dynamic and dilemma. As we have said, it is a life-cycle strategy. We are also working very actively on youth mental health initiatives with our "What's Up" initiative, looking at adolescent mental health, literacy, staying in schools and the prevention of very young parenting. Where there are young parents, they are actively targeted and brought into our service as young parents with their babies and toddlers for children up to the age of three.

Mainstream schools do not suit every child, but this can be helped with the capacity building, particularly if teachers are given training and support in positive behaviour management strategies, if there are integrated whole-school plans for learning and development, and if the social and emotional aspects of learning are really supported. In our experience schools strive to support every child but may not have the capacity or know-how to do that well. Youthreach plays a really important role in that social inclusion and empowerment of the adolescent learner who may not have found a satisfactory place earlier in the educational system. If from infancy attention is paid to the attachment process and oral language development, young people experiencing those kinds of difficulties will find them minimised in their life experience as they move through the different stages of development, including adolescence.

Deputy John Lyons

I thank the representatives of both groups for attending. If the Government or any future Government is genuinely committed to addressing educational disadvantage, it needs to give consideration to what youngballymun and NCI are doing. Having grown up in Ballymun and still living there, I am familiar with much of the work that youngballymun does. I commend the work being done by youngballymun and I encourage everybody to take time to engage with it because it is mind-blowing. The witnesses from youngballymun mentioned a ten year strategy. What is the position with regard to funding it?

I will visit the National College of Ireland because I would like to find out more about it. The youngballymun model is exceptionally integrated with all of the community partners and some of its services were mentioned. We are discussing the zero to three years age category today but youngballymun deals with more than this and I am sure the Vice Chairman will not mind me asking a question about these other services. How integrated is the programme with all the lead partners in the area, including youth services, Ballymun Whitehall Area Partnership and the drugs task force?

Any advocate of eradicating educational disadvantage who knows only what has been said today about the two projects should make further contact with either or both groups before the committee to learn more.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

As someone from a constituency which does not have a specific disadvantaged area but rather has disadvantaged individuals I am fascinated by what I have heard. We are dealing with a changing society in which people perceived as middle-class are struggling. The difficulty of breaking the cycle of poverty has been explained, as was the involvement of people from the community. Are the parents of the children used as role models? This could be beneficial because they also live in the community.

I was fascinated to hear that only 3% of those in Ballymun continue to third level education. A major university is situated in the community. Is it used to highlight the importance of the integration of third level education back into the community? What percentage of children in both areas do not finish school and drop out before doing the leaving certificate?

The years from birth to the age of three are very formative years with regard to education. Diet is also important for brain skills. Do the witnesses get involved in this? The quality of diet in poorer areas is definitely a factor in the development of skills in young children. This may be very right wing - and I am not one of those - but many of the people involved receive social welfare payments of some description. Has the use of food vouchers been considered because they would guarantee quality food for the young people? It might sound extreme but in my experience the quality of food purchased by those in receipt of social welfare is quite poor as are their cooking skills. If the brain is not developed at this very early age how can the children catch up later?

Both organisations seem to have the same objective and I am sure similar organisations exist in other parts of the country. Do these organisations link up and communicate?

Dr. Josephine Bleach

We do.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

Yes.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

The reason I ask is because I hate to see an organisation starting from scratch when the wheel has already been invented and there could be linkage.

I want to return to a point made with regard to urban and non-urban areas. There is much poverty in isolated pockets of rural areas. How do the witnesses propose we deal with this? All of the children going to a particular school may not be affected. Is it possible to specifically target measures to those children who are? Based on their experience do the witnesses have a model that could deal with this? I have recently returned from South Africa where a huge number of children drop out of education. The matriculation level throughout South Africa is 30%. We consider it to be an economically well-developed country but serious issues exist there and I learned much. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

In the previous term this committee did a major study on early school leaving.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

I have read it.

Vice Chairman

It was referred to earlier.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It was done in conjunction with the Educational Research Centre at St. Patrick's College. I am delighted to welcome the witnesses and I commend their work because they are working on the findings of the report, that one out of six children leave school early and the years from birth to six years are the key years which must be targeted. We spoke to six at risk groups including people in prison, people with special needs, Travellers, those affected by inter-generational literacy, those affected by substance abuse and LGBT young people. These are the people the witnesses are trying to help so-----

Dr. Josephine Bleach

They are not marginalised later on.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Exactly. While working on the report, and while doing other work on the issue of dyslexia, I found great intentions but a lack of consistency. How do the witnesses maintain the people? I also found that interest in the children waned as they got older. Parents told us key moments of crisis and transition arise, an example is starting secondary school, when the children can get lost. In this regard, parents felt it would be better if the children had been caught at the age of ten rather than 11 or 12.

Do the programmes use public health nurses?

Dr. Josephine Bleach

We work hand-in-hand with them.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is great because they are key people. In Scandinavia they bring the first book into a home for a child.

What I am about to say may be radical but it came up in our discussions, although we did not recommend it. We want children to finish school and I would like to know whether the witnesses think we should link the continuance of welfare payments to matriculation at leaving certificate level. I know this is radical and it would be a major culture change but what I find interesting is that when children finish school early the children's allowance is stopped and nobody complains. I am stunned by this. My child just turned 18 this month and I have already received a letter to state he will not receive it next month, although payment used to continue until education was completed. All of the figures in our research went back to socially disadvantaged communities, although I accept what others have stated about pockets existing elsewhere.

I apologise because I must leave the meeting, but I will read the transcript of what the witnesses state. I must attend another event and I have a ten minute walk ahead of me. I would like if the witnesses took up Deputy Lyons's suggestion and brought us out to see their work.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

The Senator would be welcome.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

And I would be delighted.

Vice Chairman

The final contribution will be from Deputy Murphy, after which the witnesses can respond.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

As I am not a member of the committee, I thank the Vice Chairman for facilitating my questions. I also thank the two groups for their presentations. Deputies Donohoe and Kevin Humphreys have met the Early Learning Initiative, ELI, several times and are supportive of what it is doing, including its good work on the docklands.

We have discussed a matter previously, although I would like to hear more about it this morning. It may already have been addressed. I was watching the presentations on a monitor but I may have missed something while I was walking down from my office. I am referring to financing. I have been trying to find out the figures for the Government's spend on early learning. Getting a decent, accurate figure is proving difficult. Do the witnesses have that figure and, if so, is that amount enough? The relevant submission contains numbers on the cost of the programmes, but will it increase and how will the ELI meet that challenge? What is the Government's role in terms of financing?

My second question is on the research and case studies. Every week, our offices receive many nice reports and documents that have nice pictures of families or children, quotes about how well a child is getting on, etc. However, we do not know the research behind those reports and do not have the time to inquire. How rigorous is the witnesses' research and what underlies the case studies that were presented this morning?

Ms Eleanor McClorey

I will start by responding to Deputy Lyons's question on our funding. It is a ten-year change strategy. As the Deputy probably knows, we have managed our initial five-year funding well. It will carry us into approximately March of next year. It is a co-funding arrangement involving the Government and philanthropy, namely, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Atlantic Philanthropies. Both have been active, supportive and effective partners with us in this incredible change strategy. As we move into autumn, it will be critical that core, strong decisions are made to ensure that we have the resources required to deliver on the final four to five years of the change strategy to 2016. Our relationship and engagement with both funders is solid and positive. Nevertheless, the area-based child services strategy to tackle child poverty is a cutting edge initiative for the Government. In this regard, the programme for Government indicates that the Government wishes to work in partnership with philanthropy. Therefore, proactivity on the part of Departments will be essential, that is, a strong pro-child, pro-family approach.

The youngballymun model is operational. Deputy Lyons referred to community role models. He is a living, breathing role model for the diverse Ballymun community. Despite adversity, there are extraordinary achievements in many families. The underlying statistical facts are that poverty and disadvantage impose burdens on young people who are trying to break through the ceiling and achieve.

Deputy Lawlor made a number of observations. I will tie them to his colleague's references to linking welfare payments with matriculation and achievement. The fact remains that access to income remains a critical aspect of poverty. Our focus is on services to children in families. Effective services will make a significant contribution. Over time, low income has a major impact on diets. Those of us with some disposable income tend not to consider in detail the cost of every item, particularly high quality fresh food.

My next observation is on-----

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I disagree.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

I welcome the Deputy's disagreement. It is not a problem.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I could show Ms McClorey a basket of fresh produce-----

Vice Chairman

We have asked a question and it is only fair that we give-----

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I know.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

ELI gives people the mental and emotional space to consider the foods they will eat in a week, their shopping, their plans, etc. These activities require an average level of well being, mental health, clarity and forethought. They require a certain level of health.

Having read all of the Ballymun data, one of the most devastating findings is on the level of maternal depression. Taking Ballymun as a community that is typical of many areas of significant disadvantage, at least one in four mothers experiences a clinical level of depression. Struggling in an adverse neighbourhood, living lives that are welfare-dependent and personally constrained circumstances with low levels of educational attainment prohibit real access to the mainstream dynamic workforce to which most people have access. The effect of these factors combined with having children, perhaps in circumstances that were not chosen, on mental health, in particular maternal mental health, is devastating. Since children are dependent on the quality of their primary care givers' average level of well being - I am not referring to super well being - health, mental clarity, responsiveness and ability to manage the interactions that go with family life, of which most of us have experience in one way or another, the factors I mentioned will take a toll over time if they are relentless and inescapable.

In recent years, many of us have been hit by negative economic circumstances and the greater level of public discourse on the issues of low incomes and financial stress has been interesting. From my experience, sustained exposure to such worries does not mean the worries go away. Rather, they become embedded deeper in one's system. It is like sustained exposure to low temperatures. People do not grow used to subzero temperatures. They get frostbite and die. Sustained exposure to poverty has negative physical and mental health impacts. This is one of the reasons for our interventions in supporting parental well being. I am not referring to building confidence or self-esteem alone, but to improving technical skills and know-how. This can be critical in changing the system.

In our experience, the early school leaving dynamic is set up early. Experiences in preschool and early primary school seem to set the tone for engagement with school. Major crises can occur later. For example, we place considerable focus on and support children's transition into secondary school. Teachers and parents will confirm that a positive schooling experience tends to get layered down. If kids have a bad teacher or someone with whom they do not get on, they take it in their stride as opposed to their views of school, per se. They are able to make the distinction, manage the school system and achieve. The quality of their experiences is important.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

We work closely with everyone in the community. The docklands area is different from Ballymun as Ballymun Regeneration is still in existence. The Dublin Docklands Authority and the Dublin Inner City Partnership are no longer there. We work with community centres and other facilities on the ground. In some ways they consider us the last man standing, as we are a body that can bring people together. As the docklands take in the IFSC, people are living in the area who are in no way disadvantaged, and with the Celtic tiger, people would have bought houses around there because they could not afford them elsewhere. Such people are now stuck in negative equity and although they may not be considered educationally disadvantaged, they may be at risk of poverty. Stresses and strains have an impact.

Another strength, particularly on the early school leaving issue, is the fact that the Early Learning Initiative is part of the National College of Ireland, NCI, a third level college. Our parent-child home programme children consider that they are going to college. They go to school afterwards and we would say they would go back to college thereafter. It is interesting that we have events for the schools in the college. When I began here, we spoke to the kids from junior infants upwards and asked what they must do to get to college. They would say that they had to be quiet, good and listen to the teacher. At this stage, the junior infants class would tell us that they have to read, write and be able to do maths. It is brilliant.

We have third level students from the community going to NCI. They go to the schools and community centres, providing the tuition support at second level. They are seen as role models. When I first joined this initiative I spoke to all the principals, of which Deputy Ó Riordáin was one. He suggested that we do an educational guidance programme in fifth and sixth class. This would get children to examine their careers and work backwards on what they need to do. They would consider, for example, what subjects are required at second level in order to be mechanic, or what course could be done at third level. We have run that over four years very successfully. Children are working out in fifth and sixth class the issues they need to address such that they can get a particular career in which they may be interested.

One of the issues is with maths, with some children taking foundation level maths. As a result of this, they cannot access a wide range of careers. We are making parents and students aware of this problem. With our tuition support this year, people joined and after the mock exams, they were being encouraged to go to foundation level. The co-ordinator would have telephoned every affected parent but most would not even have been aware that the children were being moved or the impact this would have on future educational choices.

There are many elements in the system which groups like ours are pointing out to parents which the formal education system does not. There was a leaving certificate student who hoped to take on a career that required a third level qualification but she was doing foundation level maths. She did not realise her journey would be twice as long because she was not doing ordinary level maths.

With regard to diet, we do not operate a deficit model. We see parents as capable who, if they get the right help, will be able to support their children. We give them a positive image of themselves and support them in gaining skills, educational capital and knowledge, such that they can support their children from early years right up to third level and beyond. Parents know that the process does not stop when college is finished.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

The point is that many parents nowadays do not have the skills for basic cooking.

Vice Chairman

The point has been made.

Ms Eleanor McClorey

The Deputy is correct. With regard to health and development, I forgot to emphasise the nutritional element of the programme involving babies and toddlers. We consider food and nutrition from birth onwards and put in place some healthy choices. We look to give people information and guidance.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I did not mean to interrupt but this is a helpful issue.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

We work in one area of the docklands where there is a high degree of feuding, a low level of trust and much deprivation and drugs. In the first year we did not get into the area and in the second year, one person took the programme to the area. In the end, she said the people only dealt with the books and toys. Since that time, we have over a quarter of the participation from that area. There are entire streets in the area participating in the programme. Sometimes we must be careful and build trusted, equal partnerships with parents. We must support them in making choices. I agree with the Deputy but we must look at the starting point.

Vice Chairman

A vote has just been called so we may have to move on.

Dr. Josephine Bleach

With regard to financing, we have been supported by private philanthropy until now. We are now at the stage where we are seeking funds and we definitely require Government funding if this is to continue. There is no point in something starting and then stopping. There must be a continuous process and people must know the money is coming.

Ms Hazel O’Byrne

I will respond briefly to some of the questions about investment. There is significant investment going into mainstream systems across the country and from our perspective, the task is to reconfigure what is already in those systems so that they can deliver evidence-based approaches. That equates to public health nurses, early years providers and teachers working in an evidence-based prevention and early intervention framework. There was also a question on evaluation findings and these are significant, particularly with regard to literacy, parental stress and depression. We would be happy to share those.

Vice Chairman

It is probably a good time to conclude as a vote has been called in the Dáil Chamber. Sometimes we think we have heard everything that is to said about educational disadvantage, only to learn to learn new information. Those statistics from the Hart-Risley report on the vocabulary differential between rich and poor children are really striking. It is a key indicator of how we are not tackling the issue properly at an early age. Ireland, until a few years ago, had almost zero investment in pre-school education, and that is the sector that would see the greatest benefit. I am aware that youngballymun did a presentation on that.

There has been a suggestion that people should visit these projects and we might speak to the groups, either individually or as a collective, to organise that. Collective visits have not been overly successful in the past as a particular date may not suit people. If the groups are willing, I am sure Members would like to visit and see the work. A report is being compiled and we would appreciate submissions from any member of the committee. The idea is to take educational disadvantage out of schools and start talking properly about what makes the biggest impact. The groups present today are making a big difference with their work and we very much appreciate them taking time to come here and present to the committees.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

We can have a cup of coffee upstairs and speak after the vote.

The joint committee adjourned at 11 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 June 2012.