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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 2008

Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008: Discussion.

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with Action for Separated Children in Ireland on the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008.

I draw the attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we commence, I wish to advise everyone of the procedure we will use. We will receive a joint presentation from the Action for Separated Children in Ireland which is an umbrella organisation including Barnardos, the Children's Rights Alliance, the ISPCC and the Irish Refugee Council. The presentation will be followed by a question and answer session. I am delighted that this discussion was and is an unscheduled aspect to our public hearings on the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. It became apparent during previous discussions that the issue of children forms an important part of the proposed legislation and the members of the committee agreed unanimously that it is important to have an input from children's groups.

In that regard, we are delighted there is an alliance of a number of children's groups to be able to put forward a coherent and common view on the issues relevant to the Bill. I am delighted we will have this discussion before commencing consideration of Committee Stage of the Bill. I understand it has been agreed by the group that Ms Norah Gibbons will make the presentation. I invite her to introduce her colleagues and make her presentation.

Ms Norah Gibbons

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for affording us the opportunity to speak with them today. My colleagues are Ms Maria Corbett from the policy office of the Children's Rights Alliance; Ms Mary Nicholson, community and advocacy officer with the ISPCC; and Ms Jyothi Kanics, separated children's officer with the Irish Refugee Council.

The action for separated children in Ireland umbrella group came together approximately 18 months ago to look at the issue of separated and trafficked children because of growing concerns within the NGO and statutory sectors about how such children were being looked after once they arrived in this country. Ireland has an opportunity to improve the lives of the vulnerable group of children who are separated or trafficked into Ireland. As we have all, in our individual capacities, made submissions to the committee, we will not go over everything today. Having spoken this morning with the Chairman who did us the honour of coming to our public meeting on the issue, we have agreed to keep the presentation short in order that members will have time to engage with the subject.

The principles we want observed are those outlined in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, as members will not be surprised to hear. Ireland is a signatory to the convention which it has ratified. Its key principles are that the best interests of the child are paramount in all matters; that every child is entitled to support to achieve his or her potential in areas such as education, accommodation and health and social services; and that each child has a right to be heard, depending on age and stage of development. There are also the principle of non-discrimination and, in particular, the principle in Article 20 to the effect that separated children are entitled to special protection.

In the Bill, as it stands, children are viewed through the lens of a system designed primarily for adults. The action for separated children group wants children to be visible in the legislation and wants their needs and rights to be recognised and catered for. We want their immigration status to be only a secondary consideration - they are children first. We want the Bill to cover all children, including those within the European Union and the European Economic Area, as well as outside these areas. The reason for this is that separated children, particularly those who might be trafficked, come from these and other areas.

We want to put six key points to the joint committee to improve the Bill for children. We want the Bill to include a definition of separated children. In some of the written material and media commentary these children are described as unaccompanied minors. We make a distinction in this regard by describing them as separated children because describing them as unaccompanied minors presents the picture that they have turned up on their own. Many of them turn up accompanied by adults but not by their legal guardians or anybody else who has any right to be with them. We would like the following definition to be included: "Separated children are children under 18 years of age who are outside their country of origin and are separated from either their parents or their previous legal customary primary care-givers".

The Bill is the criminal justice response to trafficking. It states welfare and protection provisions will be included in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008. We believe they are not included in sufficient capacity and would like a provision for child protection to be present. These children are particularly vulnerable because they do not have their parents or guardians with them. They are alone in a strange country. There is a need, therefore, for training for first responders - the people who first meet these children - in order that they can identify those who are separated. We note that this need is fully recognised by the anti-human-trafficking unit in the Department. We have spoken to the staff in the unit and they recognise that training for gardaí, HSE and NGO staff must be provided in order that they can all work together. This is in line with the good principles already in place for working with children.

We want the idea of a multidisciplinary team to be adopted, with contact and co-operation from the first point to include gardaí, the HSE and relevant non-governmental organisations. Age assessments should be carried out in accordance with international best practice. We know from other jurisdictions that this is not a once-off event. One cannot just look at a child and determine his or her age. We want 24-hour social work cover which is sadly missing for all children in Ireland, including those we are discussing. We want proper accommodation and follow-up supports.

The following are the changes needed to the Bill. The best interest principle should be included, as should the definition of separated children. The Bill should include a clear entitlement to protection. We also need to amend the Child Care Act 1991, two sections of which deal with these children - section 4 under which children are voluntarily admitted into care and section 5 which deals with homelessness. Clearly, the provision in section 4 is the preferred way, but in different parts of the country different sections are used. Section 26 of the Child Care Act also needs to be amended in order that each separated child has an independent guardian appointed who will look after his or her best interests until final determination is made. We want a situation where no child will be in the country without a legally determined status. There are children who have been here for a considerable length of time who as yet have no determined status. They are new changes.

I will turn to changes to current provision. In section 73 we want to see the child's right to apply in his or her own right to seek protection restored to the Bill. Children may have additional grounds to apply for protection and residency separate from those that their parents might use.

In section 83 we would like to have inserted in the Bill the right to apply to stay in the State on humanitarian grounds. This might particularly apply to the children who came here in the year 2000-01 and are now described as aged-out minors. These are children who have reached the age of 18 years but have not been here for a considerable length of time. We would like them to have the right to apply to stay in the State for humanitarian reasons. We recognise that determination would be made by the Minister.

A number of sections of the Bill cover the issue of detention, particularly sections 55, 56, 58, 70 and 71. In some circumstances children can be detained. We want this provision removed and want it recognised that children should be accommodated only in child appropriate services. Garda cells and so on are not child appropriate services.

Regarding family reunification, we want the child's rights to a family to be recognised and to have expanded the provisions as laid out in section 50. We recognise the need to determine exactly who is family because one of the problems for children is knowing who are the adults who have them. Flexibility is needed to respond to the situation of individual children. It cannot just be parents because their parents may be elsewhere or may no longer be available to them.

We want to look at the issue of trafficking which is dealt with in section 124 of the Bill. We need specific provisions to be written into the Bill for the identification of children who might be trafficked, the prevention of trafficking and for the protection and support of these children. We need to be sure that we are not giving children to traffickers who identify themselves as being related to them. We want an onus to be placed on the State to ensure the person with the child has authorisation to have custody of him or her. That involves substituting the word "shall" for the word "may" in section 124.

Trafficked children are most vulnerable. With the Garda, we recognise them as children who were initially taken into the care of the HSE and went missing from State care. Until now children have been cared for in very big hostels, even children as young as 14 or 15 years of age. It is very easy for those who want to traffic them to remove them from such a setting. We know from many of the children talking to the NGOs that they have been taken from their countries of origin, have been threatened with their families, have been very frightened and gone along. At least two incidents have been reported. We know from talking to the HSE of many other children going missing from care, being apprehended by the Garda, being used in brothels, being taken back into State care and going missing again. Thankfully, some of those children are now in safe placements in foster care and the link with their traffickers has been broken.

We welcome the opportunity to engage in discussion and ask questions which my colleagues and I will answer. We recognise that this is a complex Bill and that the committee has hard work to do. We reiterate to it and the Oireachtas that the Bill should be strongly guided by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, the principles of best international practice, experience gained by NGOs and statutory agencies during the years and experts in this area, for example, the special rapporteurs on child protection. We would like the committee to recognise that these are children, first and foremost, that they are children who are in Ireland and that we have a moral and legal obligation to protect them and uphold their rights. They have a right to be protected, have their needs met and be kept safe. I ask the committee to consider a section in the Bill specifically relating to these especially vulnerable children with their specific needs and rights put together because in many situations children and others suffer from parts of Acts that are not pulled together. It may be easier to include a specific section in this Bill rather than trying to amend parts in which children are lumped in - probably a bad choice of words - with adults.

I thank Ms Gibbons. I take the opportunity to compliment her and all her colleagues in Barnardos and the other organisations - the Children's Rights Alliance, the ISPCC and the Irish Refugee Council - on the fabulous work, primarily advocacy work, they undertake on behalf of children. They are doing a fabulous job for which the nation owes them a great debt.

Before I invite commentary and questions which we find to be the best method of dealing with presentations, is there information available on the number of under-18s, unaccompanied children - Ms Gibbons used a different expression, "separated children" - arriving on our doorstep, at entry points to the country, each year?

Ms Jyothi Kanics

On the definition, we use the term "separated child" rather than unaccompanied child to show that a child may be separated from his or her family or guardian but accompanied by another adult. This helps to emphasise the point about identification.

With regard to the numbers of children involved, they have decreased considerably. In 2000 and 2001 more than 1,000 separated children were presented to the HSE. Last year the number was around 350. The numbers of children we see are perhaps just the tip of the iceberg because we only receive numbers recorded by the special social work team in the Dublin area which works with separated children. Separated children are to be found in other parts of the country but we do not have statistics for them as they have not been registered. We urge registration of all the children involved.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. It became apparent to both Deputy Rabbitte and me at the hearings last week that this was a fundamental issue that needed to be dealt with. We are quite clear in our view that this legislation does not address the issue in any way. It is disappointing that, to date, it has been ignored. It is very frustrating for us as politicians who deal with the HSE daily and are aware of the huge problems being encountered. We would not be responsible in our role if we were to allow this legislation to go through as it stands. That would be washing our hands of the issue and referring it to an organisation which no one is satisfied is operating to any standard.

During the last hearings and again today the committee has focused on the issue of the number of children involved. It is important to put the matter in context and to have some idea of the numbers involved. The delegation seems to be stating - I stand to be corrected - that the number about which we are talking is the number registered in the Dublin area. If separated children are coming into the country through Rosslare port, for example, which has been flagged as an avenue for trafficking in general, they may not be included in the register or in the number of children who have presented as separated children or who have subsequently disappeared from accommodation. That is the hidden side of the immigration system or, more appropriately, the trafficking industry into this country.

I understand from our hearings last week that it is known that approximately 40 children have gone missing from HSE accommodation annually. This equates to approximately one third of all children in such care. Will Ms Nicholson indicate her understanding of what happens to these children when they disappear from HSE accommodation? The argument has been made that children are being trafficked into the State on behalf of their families and that they disappear from HSE-supported accommodation in order to be reunited with those families. Is there any evidence to that effect?

How strong is the evidence that children are being trafficked for other purposes? My understanding is that most children who go missing from HSE accommodation have been in that accommodation for a relatively short period. This suggests the trafficking system is well organised. In continental Europe in the last six months, for example, this very avenue has been used to traffic minors into the sex industry. We do not want Ireland to become the staging post for the trafficking of children into any type of exploitation, whether labour exploitation or sexual exploitation.

Ms Mary Nicholson

From 2001 to 2005, 328 separated children were reported missing from HSE accommodation. The question of what happens to these children subsequently is the critical issue. Some are reunified with family, whether legitimately or otherwise, and there is concern in regard to the reunification process. Some children are trafficked into the State for other purposes. Both the Garda Síochána and the HSE are aware of this. The HSE reported in 2005 that some 20 of the children who came into its care were trafficked for the purpose either of family reunification, sexual exploitation, domestic servitude or forced marriage. Some of these cases have gone through the courts. In addition, there is significant anecdotal evidence of trafficking.

The most pertinent aspect of trafficking is that it largely takes place underground. Deputy Naughten is correct that children who disappear from HSE accommodation usually do so quickly, perhaps within the first 48 hours of arriving here. That is a major cause of concern. It comes down to the identification process. It is important that we develop an expertise in identifying separated children at port of entry and at other stages. Not all such children are identified at port of entry. Some who come to the notice of the State have clearly been trafficked into this jurisdiction. Ireland is being targeted as a location to which and through which children are being trafficked.

How effective are we at identifying such children? The figure for 2007 was 350. Is that based on the definition in the legislation or on Action for Separated Children in Ireland's own definition of separated children? Is there a disparity in the numbers in respect of the definitions of unaccompanied and separated children?

Ms Mary Nicholson

Does Deputy Naughten refer to children going missing or children being trafficked?

I refer to the numbers presenting in the State. Does the figure of 350 refer to unaccompanied children or separated children?

Ms Mary Nicholson

There were 350 separated children.

Is that the HSE figure?

Ms Mary Nicholson

Yes. The difficulty is that many such children have not been identified. Various reports, including the US State Department's report, suggest that only a small percentage of children are identified at port of entry. There is an entirely separate category of children, therefore, about whom we know little. The Immigrant Council of Ireland is currently undertaking research on child trafficking. We welcome this because one of the greatest difficulties in seeking to address this issue is that we are not sure of the extent of the problem. We have no doubt, however, that trafficking is taking place. Even if children are being brought into the State merely for the purpose of family reunification, we must look at that process. We seek to prevent trafficking for any purpose and to ensure that the Legislature makes specific provision for appropriate interventions and supports.

Representatives of the Immigrant Council of Ireland made that point at a meeting of the committee last week.

Ms Norah Gibbons

I reiterate Ms Nicholson's point regarding the difficulty of identifying children who have been trafficked into the State. I pay tribute to the HSE team that deals with separated children. It is operating within a system that neither supports the work it is doing, provides adequate accommodation for these children nor assigns a social worker or other State representative to care for them. The HSE team is working very hard but we do not have a system in place to meet the needs of such children. We do not know who they are; we only know the identities of those we have found. Deputy Naughten is correct; we do not have a proper figure because we are not collating the information and are not all working together in the way we should to meet the needs of these children.

I invite Deputy Rabbitte to make a contribution. We will return to discuss these issues in more detail.

I agree with the Chairman in his well deserved tribute to the organisations presenting. Previously other organisations made submissions to the committee on other aspects of the Bill. As Deputy Naughten said, it became plain that most of the organisations regarded this as a distinctive issue requiring separate treatment which is not proposed in the Bill.

I am interested in the delegation's distinction between the EEA and areas outside it. When the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Bill was going through the House, we took the view that trafficking ought to have been dealt with in that context, not in the context of immigration but the matter has developed otherwise. I hope I am not doing the Minister an injustice or misrepresenting him when I say he took up the position during the passage of the human trafficking Bill that people being trafficked from inside the borders of the European Union or the wider EEA did not require any special measures because they were citizens of the European Union and that the special case which we had made for a victim's charter was not necessary in respect of those who might be trafficked here from some of the new accession states, either for the purposes of labour or sexual exploitation. The delegation seems to be very strong on the point that the fact they are citizens of the European Union is not adequate to deal with the problem.

Ms Jyothi Kanics

The Deputy has picked up that point correctly. We share his view that the remit of the human trafficking Bill and this Bill is not wide enough. We point out that the provisions of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill redefine the term "foreign national" as being a non-Irish citizen. It is certainly possible to make this consideration. We argue that for separated children and trafficked persons this is necessary to ensure non-discrimination and equal access to services. Certain EU nationals do not have unimpeded access to services, for example, accommodation or housing. There are some provisions in place for third country nationals which are not available to EU nationals who are advised to return home and avail of the services in their home country. However, this may not be appropriate in the case of a trafficked child or in their best interests because they could be endangered. We, therefore, ask for a separated child to be defined as a non-Irish citizen to ensure non-discrimination, access to services and equitable treatment.

Is it a question, for example, of a young person from Lithuania having access in this jurisdiction to child care or appropriate services once he or she has been trafficked here or where it is suspected he or she has been trafficked here? Is it because he or she is a citizen of the European Union that he or she can be told to go back to Lithuania?

Ms Jyothi Kanics

Some of the case studies highlighted in the media showed that Estonians had been brought before the courts and returned home. I refer also to the situation of the Romanians on the roundabout who had not been trafficked but in respect of whom issues of child protection arose. We should have a situation where there is consultation with the children and families in question. There may be scope for some child protection measures such as the introduction of a guardian. Other measures should be in place to provide, for example, free legal aid, interpreting services, accommodation, social services and, in the case of persons who have been violated or traumatised, rehabilitative services.

Ms Maria Corbett

The likelihood of being trafficked does not disappear at the border of the European Economic Area, EEA. The possibility of being trafficked is not based on nationality. This type of exploitation has happened and continues to happen within the EEA. Services should be in place to respond to each identified instance of child trafficking. The objective must be to identify, respond to and support the victim. After that it is a question of deciding what should happen next in the best interests of the child, whether he or she should be repatriated and so on.

It is critically important that children from any nationality within or outside the EEA should fall within the child protection services response. The legal and technical issue of whether such children are entitled to residency rights is essentially an additional issue. The immediate priority is to provide the services to respond to trafficking. The legal residency issue must be separated from that.

We cannot be sure of the scale of trafficking into this jurisdiction, but it is my understanding that, in so far as it goes on, it is most likely to originate from within the EU. Such a system is more lucrative and commercially viable, if I may use those inappropriate terms. The need to go to the Philippines or a country in Asia would mean higher costs for the pimps and others who profit from this trade. I am interested in the case being made here because the Minister set his face against it in the context of the other Bill. We should not be dragging up the case of the roundabout near the airport. That is an entirely separate issue. The Sir Humphreys will be driven mad if they are given to imagine that every time people congregate at Dublin Airport, they will have to be taken before child protection services.

Trafficking is a different issue. I take from the submission that the delegates are of the view that the rights or protections provided under the existing Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Bill 2007 are not sufficient to deal with this issue as it affects people under 18 years of age.

Ms Mary Nicholson

The problem with the Criminal Justice Bill is as its Title suggests. It does not deal with the other side of the issue which is the need to consider the care and protection of victims.

I echo the Chairman's welcome to the delegates and compliment them on the great work they do. What procedures are followed when a child presents to the authorities as a separated child or is discovered to be such? Is there a specific age group into which most such children fall? Are we talking, for instance, about eight to ten year olds or 12 to 16 year olds? Is there any information on the age group into which the children who have gone missing are most likely to fall?

Earlier this year, a Bulgarian man claimed to be bringing children through Rosslare and moving them on to the United Kingdom. I made inquiries with the Garda and the Department at the time as to how one identifies children being trafficked. Do the delegates have any suggestions as to what procedures should be considered?

The provision of suitable accommodation is another big issue. We do not have suitable accommodation for many of the people, including adults, who are here seeking asylum. I would like to know more about the organisation's links with other parts of Europe and further afield. What work is being done in that regard? I would appreciate it if the delegation could respond to me on some of these issues.

Ms Norah Gibbons

A number of us will deal with those questions. Ms Kanics will describe what happens to children now.

Ms Jyothi Kanics

It is a challenge to outline what happens to a separated child after he or she has been identified. It depends on when, where and by whom such children are identified. It relates to Deputy Naughten's earlier question. The statistics I cited pertained to referrals to the HSE team in Dublin. I agree with Ms Gibbons that the special team is doing a tremendous job with limited resources. The specialised social work team in Dublin receives referrals from immigration officials at Dublin Airport, the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner and, in exceptional circumstances, the Garda Síochána. If a child is found somewhere else - near Rosslare, for example - he or she will become the responsibility of the local health office.

As we said in our introduction, the response varies greatly depending on whether the child is taken into care under a section 4 voluntary care order or as a homeless child under section 5. In very few instances children are brought before the courts to be made the subject of a full care order. In even fewer instances a guardian ad litem is appointed to conduct a more detailed assessment. I can think of just a handful of cases of that type such as the case of the young Afghan men who were involved in a hunger strike in a cathedral. Some measures are in place to govern what happens when children are referred into the care of the Health Service Executive. We emphasise that the child care Acts could offer more guidance on how this should be done. I refer to the resolution of disputes relating to family contact, reunification and, in some cases, age assessment. The safety of the child should be paramount in all such cases.

The manner in which accommodation is provided for children in circumstances of this nature depends on where and when they are identified. If they arrive at the airport in the evening or at the weekend, they are referred to the emergency services and later transferred to hostel accommodation. Children have gone missing during the transition period. Those involved in such cases can follow many paths. During this process we would like a guardian to be appointed and a formal determination of the best interests of the child to be made. It should be possible to achieve family reunification in Ireland or abroad. I emphasise that very little is attempted by way of family tracing in other countries. It could be done more often with the assistance of the Red Cross. Foster care should be made available more often. Family reunification is one of the outcomes for which we should aim. In some cases the HSE decides whether an asylum application should be made on behalf of the child. We would like legal aid and advice to be made available before such decisions are taken, ideally with the involvement of a guardian. Some of those who enter the asylum applications process achieve refugee or subsidiary protection status, although some of them do not.

We are concerned about children who remain in a legal limbo. Some children who arrived in Ireland and were placed with families were not given a durable solution. They remain in a legal limbo. I have met children who have been in Ireland for eight years but do not have any documents such as passports or birth certificates. They may have a personal public service number and may be going to school. We need to consider what will happen when they reach 18 years of age. Will the failure of the State to look after their needs by making a decision about their best interests drive them underground as irregular and undocumented residents? We have outlined a variety of responses and outcomes. We would like to ensure safeguards are in place along that path. We have made specific recommendations about how that path could look.

I will ask Ms Kanics's colleagues to add to her remarks. The time available to the committee is limited. I am anxious to ensure everyone can make a contribution.

Ms Mary Nicholson

Most of the children we are discussing are between the ages of 15 and 17 years. However, children as young as 11 years are involved. In June 2007 five young Nigerian girls, the youngest of whom was 11 years, went missing from the same place at the same time. They have not yet been found. It is obvious that most people have not heard about the case. Part of the process, in looking at best practice, involves identifying the age profile of the children in question. The UK has had a good model working at Heathrow Airport, where the NGO, NSPCC and the Metropolitan Police work together. They have a multidisciplinary approach with people skilled at interviewing and identifying child victims or potential victims of trafficking. Also, a number of different reports, such as the Welsh Assembly report, set out recommendations on how to identify victims of trafficking.

I too welcome the various groups to this committee and commend and thank them for their work. Ms Norah Gibbons mentioned that these children are alone in a strange country. Will she outline the reasons these children are alone in a strange country? Many people often raise this concern with Members of the Oireachtas. What are those children doing here, what is the background to their story, are they here because of crises or are they being trafficked?

On the issue of detention, Ms Gibbons mentioned the need for child-appropriate centres rather than Garda station cells. We support that. Is the use of Garda station cells for children a widespread practice? The Refugee Council mentioned a figure of 350 children and said this could be the tip of the iceberg. What would it consider is the true figure as a result of its experience? Would it be approximately 500 to 600 or would it be double 350?

Section 24 (1)(b) of the Bill deals with responsible adults. The Children’s Rights Alliance submission suggests the provision in the legislation is too weak and suggests empowering immigration officers to undertake an assessment to satisfy themselves that the individual accompanying a child, who is not a parent or legal guardian of the child, is acting in the best interests of the child. Is it appropriate for an immigration officer to be involved in such an assessment or should an assessment come under the broader remit of child protection workers or HSE staff?

Several groups mentioned sections 4 and 5 of the Child Care Act 1991. It was stated that any provision of the amendments must act to ensure that separated children are provided with the same protection entitlements as other children in State care. Most of us would have thought that was already the situation. Is that not the case and what is behind this proposal?

We have discussed child trafficking in broad terms when dealing with previous legislation. I have concerns about parents who neglect their children. We have discussed the issue of trafficking and the criminality involved, but what have the groups to say with regard to neglectful parents or parents involved in child abuse. As a person who worked with children over 25 years, I have come across this issue many times. What have the groups to say about that issue, a concern that has been raised often?

I will invite Ms Corbett to comment on those questions. She may also comment on the questions asked by Deputy Connick.

Ms Maria Corbett

They tie in together. Separated children are not treated the same as other children in the Irish care system. There are two tiers of care provision. The Children's Rights Alliance has called, along with its colleagues in the other organisations, for separated children to be given care on a par with other children in care. For example, separated children are accommodated in large hostels with inadequate adult supervision and with no social or key worker attached to their case. We ask that children be removed from those hostels and placed in group homes that would be more reflective of the residential care model. Currently, up to 35 separated children, vulnerable young boys, girls and teenagers are housed in a hostel with a concierge arrangement. There is no secure, positive adult influence, which leaves them vulnerable to negative influences, including trafficking.

The HSE was mentioned earlier. While the team working with separated children is very dedicated, the HSE has failed these children over a long period. I would be concerned that the Act does not provide enough clarity as to the role and responsibilities of the HSE.

With regard to the patterns of when people go missing, we know that children go missing from care in the early stages of entering care and they are therefore vulnerable at that time. The patterns show that children go missing from larger hostels where there is less adult supervision. We do not know exactly, but we can put two and two together and agree that children are more protected when they are in smaller units and when they have an adult who knows and understands them. On the question of how one can identify a child who has been trafficked, one needs to get to know the child. If nobody gets to know the child then there is no knowledge of the situation.

On the question of detention, children are not detained at present. If a separated child is identified, he or she is placed in one of these hostels and is then in the care model. The Bill proposes that children can be placed in detention. We do not know what this detention facility will look like. The Bill refers to Garda stations or places of detention. It is completely inappropriate to put vulnerable children who are deeply traumatised by their experiences, into detention. We will argue that there should be no provision for detention but if there is provision for detention that such detention would be child-appropriate.

In answer to the question about where the children come from, we know they come from parts of the world where there are wars and conflicts. The children have come here and given their stories about seeking protection and asylum. Their stories include violence, loss, abuse, neglect. There is quite a variety of background which Ms Jyothi Kanics can talk about if there is time.

On the recommendation made by the Children's Rights Alliance section 24(1) of the Bill, currently the immigration official may check if the adult is responsible for the child but our view is that the official should have a duty to verify that the adult is authorised to have custody of the child. While it should be the duty of the immigration official, the assessment should be carried out by a broader, multidisciplinary team. An adult with a child should not be allowed into the country beyond the port of entry, into a system which has no means of registering or tracking whether this adult is authorised to have this child in his or her care.

I thank the group for such a comprehensive submission and for their attendance today. It became clear last week that this issue of children was an issue that deserved separate and specific attention in the Bill.

I note the submission from the Children's Rights Alliance stated that between 1998 and this year, 5,000 separated children have been identified as being in Ireland. This is a large number even though the numbers are decreasing and the provision needs to be there for them. What struck me most was the stark line in the Irish Refugee Council's submission that there is no improvement proposed in the Bill for the position of separated children. This is an appalling indictment of the current shape of the Bill.

There are very many specific issues but in general, what is the best way to ensure the best interests of the child are protected throughout the measures and procedures provided for in the Bill? It seems to me that one point raised frequently in the submissions was the need for an independent person to represent the child. Would provision for the appointment of a guardian ad litem answer many of the concerns, together with strengthening protections? I refer in particular to provisions such as the age assessment provisions which I raised last week. Various organisations are of the view that this would lead to de facto detention of children, even where this is not provided for in the Act. Under the current shape of the Bill, because the benefit of the doubt is not being given to the child or supposed child, immigration officers can treat the child as a adult where they have reasonable grounds for believing the child is over 18 years. This seems to me to be a very dangerous provision occurring right at the start of the child’s interaction with the authorities. This would be a very dangerous provision to allow in. I refer to the section 24 provision referred to by Deputy McGrath and the idea of responsible adults. In its present incarnation the Law Society has described it as an invitation to traffickers because it does not have any criteria for establishing the identity of the responsible adult and how he or she is responsible. I understand there is provision for the health authorities to intervene at a later stage where it appears an adult is not taking care of a child. The delegates will be better acquainted with the details of the Bill, but this provision needs to be tightened in accordance with the best interests of the child and the need to ensure such children have an independent voice. I understand these are mostly older children in their late teens. Although they may have a clear voice of their own, they are still likely to require an independent voice to advocate on their behalf. Is this the main change that would answer the delegates’ chief concerns?

Ms Norah Gibbons

Yes, the provision of independent guardians for these children would be of significant benefit. When we looked at the Bill in its totality and considered how it might be improved, we concluded that the main problem was that the child's voice was not heard and the child's interests were not represented. We suggest an entire section setting out children's rights and affording them due respect.

Perhaps a series of sections should be included.

Ms Norah Gibbons

Yes. One must search the Bill for the provisions relevant to children. Children must not be lumped together with adults as though they were exactly the same. We want them to be assured of the same rights as adults but recognise that determinations must be made in some cases. An independent guardian should be appointed for every child. As it stands, even those who are lucky enough - if "lucky" is the right word - to come into the care of the HSE will not necessarily have a social worker or other designated person appointed to look after their interests. A guardian would be there for the child and represent his or her best interests. It is one of the issues we have highlighted. It is difficult to say, however, which of them is the most important. In short, the provision within the State system for separated children is not good.

Deputy Rabbitte referred to the danger of angering the Sir Humphreys. We like to annoy them a little. Otherwise, we would not be confident that we were doing our work on behalf of children. We do not want to upset them too much but it is good to annoy them slightly because that will make them engage in the debate on how best to look after the interests of children.

Ms Maria Corbett

A general provision might be inserted into the Bill to the effect that the best interests of the child should be the principal determinant in all decisions relating to children. That is the overarching principle. Many decisions on children will be made in a vacuum in between the legislative provisions. For example, where the legislation provides that a parent or guardian of a child can be detained, it is not clear what will happen to the child, whether he or she will be taken into care, detained and so on. Who will look after his or her needs? These gaps must be addressed by an overarching provision in the Bill to ensure decisions relating to children will be taken with their best interests as the guiding principle. This would help to focus the minds of the decision makers.

Is it correct to say, however, that when the interests of the child fall outside the remit of the Bill and within the aegis of other agencies, primarily the HSE, the best interests of the child principle applies in all decisions? What additionality would be brought to the process by having a best interests of the child provision included in the legislation?

Ms Maria Corbett

It is important to include it in the Bill. A significant number of the Bill's provisions do not relate to child welfare issues. Some issues are problematic. For example, a child does not have a right to apply for asylum on his or her own behalf. An overarching provision would be useful in this context.

I was going to come to that but want to be clear in my mind. Am I correct in saying that in so far as the child interacts with agencies outside the immigration structure, the best interests of the child principle applies in all cases where the HSE deals with a child? Ms Corbett should tell me if I am wrong in this assumption.

Ms Maria Corbett

No, the Chairman is correct. The best interests principle is the guide in issues of care, access and custody. There is a general provision in section 3 of the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964.

In regard to children trafficked within the European Union, the argument has been made that since they are EU citizens, they can simply be sent back to their home state and that there is no need for any additional provision in our legislation. Is it not the case that in some instances the child has been trafficked with the consent or agreement of his or her guardians or parents? If we send such children back, we will put them at risk of being trafficked by their families for a second time. They might be sold on again for another set of funds. I read earlier today about the problems encountered by immigration officers when they tried to decipher whether any given person was connected to a child. The legal provisions for such cases have been changed. If an immigration officer at the port of entry encounters an individual who claims he is the uncle of a child and the child agrees that is the case, how can it be proved? In such circumstances is it possible for DNA tests to be carried out to remove any doubt on the part of the immigration officer or the State?

I referred to a provision which I now understand to be outlined in section 85 of the Bill, under which the tribunal will be allowed to inform the HSE that it considers that an accompanying adult is not acting in the best interests of the minor. The child care Acts will apply to the minor from then on. It seems there is a gap. It should be noted that there is no provision, other than the section 24 provision whereby an immigration officer can ascertain whether a child who arrives at the frontier is accompanied and, if so, whether the person accompanying the child is a responsible adult, whereby checks can be made in advance of the tribunal hearing.

We will take that as the final question.

Ms Jyothi Kanics

I would like to make a brief final point about the victims of trafficking. It is important to bear in mind that if someone is identified and recognised as a victim of trafficking, he or she is a victim of a crime and, therefore, entitled to compensation. The UN trafficking protocol implies that in such circumstances provision should be made for temporary residency and access to support services. EU nationals should also have such an opportunity.

I will comment on the role of immigration officials in determining the relationship between an adult and a child. We need to reflect on what triggers a suspicion on the part of such an official. His or her attention might be drawn to a lack of documentation. There may be differences in family names. The adult and the child may not arrive together. The child may behave in a manner that draws attention. While we do not imply that every family has to be interrogated at points of entry, there should be clear guidelines setting out what may and may not trigger suspicion. As a previous speaker said, we should provide for a positive duty to investigate the relationship between the adult and the child. Someone with proper training should be asked to interview the child, if appropriate, as part of the investigation which may involve a multidisciplinary team.

The question of DNA testing is an interesting one for many reasons. I will not repeat the specific comments we have made about the reference in the Bill to biometric information. I urge the committee to examine those comments. DNA testing is used in cases of family reunification in this territory. I understand it is used in 80% of cases in which someone has been identified as a family member of a separated child who has arrived in Ireland. Most do not know it is used so frequently. While we do not advocate that DNA testing should be used more regularly, we recognise that it can help to protect some children. Guidelines for its use have been set out by those involved in the Separated Children in Europe programme. For example, the guidelines describe how the child should be supported in the context of a recognition of the broader definition of "family". It should be recognised that DNA testing may have unintended implications and consequences. It is being used and will be used in the future. We recognise that it could be in the best interests of the child to undertake DNA testing in some instances.

I would like to make a final point about family reunification. We need to follow up the cases of children who have been reunited with their families in Ireland. We need to support and monitor such families. I understand this happens in Cork, but it does not happen in the rest of the country.

I thank Ms Kanics. We will conclude on that note.

Have any of the organisations met the Minister or any of his officials to discuss the Bill? I understand the Minister has put forward a significant number of amendments. The best way to effect change in the legislation would be for the Minister to take some of the suggestions on board. I wonder whether the groups have had the opportunity to put their suggestions to the Minister or whether they should seek that opportunity.

Before I ask Ms Gibbons to reply to that, I wish to make two points. We will present our report to the Minister. The amendments to the Bill have already been submitted, but these proceedings are being monitored by departmental officials with a view to informing the Bill. I invite Ms Gibbons to answer Deputy Rabbitte's question directly.

Ms Norah Gibbons

I am checking information with my colleagues. We have asked for a meeting with the Minister, but have not got one.

Ms Jyothi Kanics

The Irish Refugee Council requested a meeting with the Minister or with his officials, but has not had one yet. Action for Separated Children in Ireland also requested a meeting with the Minister and while the request has been acknowledged, no appointment has been arranged. We would welcome a meeting.

I compliment the groups on their work on this issue and on the wider children's rights issues. They have done a fabulous job on this and on the issue of the constitutional rights of the child. They can rest assured that the interaction we have had today will inform the committee when it comes to the line by line consideration of the Bill. We are extremely grateful to the delegates in that regard.

Sitting suspended at 3.12 p.m. and resumed at 3.15 p.m.
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