JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Apr 2008

Visit of Czech Parliamentary Delegation.

Chairman

The item on the agenda is an exchange of views with members of the petition committee of the Czech Parliament to consult and to compare the Irish and Czech experiences in areas of human rights protection, data protection, migration, asylum and handling of complaints. I welcome our fellow parliamentarians from the petition committee of the Czech Parliament: Mr. Stanislav Krecek, head of the delegation; Mr. Jaroslav Plachy; Mr. Jiri Carbol; Mr. Zdenek Hofman, Mr. Smycek, Ms Bizova and Ms Vlasta Bohdalova. I apologise if my pronunciation is not 100% correct.

The members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights are Deputy Brian O'Shea of the Labour Party, Deputy Seán Connick of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Denis Naughten of Fine Gael, Senator Ivana Bacik, Independent, Deputy Dinny McGinley of Fine Gael and Deputy Jimmy Deenihan of Fine Gael.

I invite Mr. Krecek to address the committee.

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

I thank the Chairman for his welcome. We are glad to be here and appreciate the time given by the committee and the opportunity to speak. Our delegation is the petition committee of the Chamber of Deputies, the Lower House of the Czech Parliament. As the name suggests, we only deal with petitions filed by inhabitants of our country to the parliament. Our scope of activity is limited. Other sub-committees deal with other aspects but we do not have a single committee to deal with all the issues such as justice, equality, defence and women's rights, as in the Irish system. We are glad to have the opportunity to share information and experiences with the committee. As I indicated, we have separate committees to deal with defence, justice and constitutional issues. With regard to equal opportunities and women's rights, every parliamentary committee deals with these issues as required.

The questions of equality and anti-discrimination are rather complicated in our country. The Czech Republic was the last European Union member state to table anti-discrimination legislation, which was passed only recently in our Lower House. However, it is not yet in effect because it has not gone through the Senate, which is the Upper Chamber of the Czech Parliament. We are slightly lagging behind the rest of Europe in this respect. Nevertheless, we believe we comply with all of the standards in respect of equal opportunities and treatment. However, the Bill must go through the Senate and we are awaiting this. We would like to know the committee's opinion and experience on the everyday application of anti-discrimination legislation in real life. What issues must the committee tackle? We want to know what to be ready for when the legislation is adopted.

Chairman

We should be delighted to engage with the delegation on this subject. Certain members of the committee have a particular interest in this area and I invite Senator Bacik to contribute.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I thank the Chairman and I hope I am not speaking out of turn. I have great pleasure in welcoming the delegation. I will say dobrý den to everyone and I apologise that despite my name I have few words of Czech. It may be of interest to know that my grandfather, Karel Bacik, came from Prague to Ireland in the 1940s. He restarted Waterford Glass after the war. It is now a major Irish industry but in fact it has had a great deal of Czech expertise as he brought over craftsmen from Bohemia. Ireland has long-standing trade links with the Czech Republic. I have had the pleasure on a number of occasions of spending time in Prague and I once taught in Charles University.

Mr. Krecek asked about the anti-discrimination Bill. We have long experience of anti-discrimination legislation. The difficulty with it has been that it has required individuals to take cases to enforce it. Even after more than 30 years of equal pay law, we still have a large gap in earnings between men and women. Women still earn much less and we still have very poor representation of women in our Parliament. Legislation alone is not enough. That has been our experience.

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

The situation in our country is very similar to that described by the Senator. When it comes to equal pay, there are big differences between the salaries of women and men. The issue of women in politics in general and parliament in particular is identical, which sometimes leads to proposals being tabled before elections that women should be given more opportunities to be included on the list of candidates or that there should be the rule of zip, as we call it, where for every man on the candidate list, there is also a woman.

The biggest problem we have experienced in terms of the adoption of the anti-discrimination Bill centres on the burden of proof and the definition of who should be in a position to present the evidence that a person has been discriminated against. The wording of the current legislation suggests that the party accused of discrimination is the one who must prove that discrimination did not occur. This is being criticised widely because it goes against standard legal procedures. However, it is functioning in real life and we have not experienced many problems, despite the fact that it has been widely criticised.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

There would be parallels between the Irish Traveller community and the Roma population of the Czech Republic. Are there difficulties enforcing anti-discrimination legislation vis-à-vis that sector of the population? Have there been many incidents in the past of the Roma population being refused entry into licensed premises, hotels, public houses and so forth, for various social events, including weddings? Is that posing a difficulty?

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

I will speak generally in answering the Deputy's question. The Roma population represents one of the biggest problems in our country. To give a better perspective on these problems, we must go back to the period in the 1950s when the Roma people, who previously travelled around the country, were forced to settle. This caused problems which have escalated over the years. At present, the Roma live in ghettoes on the outskirts of big cities and in dilapidated buildings. They are heavily dependent on welfare, experience high levels of unemployment and face problems in terms of drug misuse and in finding proper housing.

In regard to whether problems have arisen in the application of the anti-discrimination Bill with respect to Roma being refused entry to public premises, two types of court cases have been taken. The first concerns, for example, a bar owner who puts a sign on his or her door stating that Roma are not allowed to enter. In the cases which have been taken on that type of behaviour, the courts have ruled in favour of the Roma because this is a clear breach of their fundamental rights. Situations also arise, however, whereby Roma who are known for being violent or troublesome file court cases after being refused entry to public places. It is sometimes difficult in these cases to present evidence in court on the reasons for refusal. The Roma population represents the single biggest problem for Czech society at present.

Ms Vlasta Bohdalova, MP

Within the Chamber of Deputies, the Lower House of the Czech Parliament, I am also a member of the committee on education. The anti-discrimination Bill is not yet effective in the Czech Republic because it has not passed through the Senate and has not been endorsed by the President.

To return to Deputy Deenihan's question, we have achieved quite a high level of education among the young Roma population. The majority of Roma children went through elementary schools and are at secondary level either at apprenticeship schools or high schools. We are starting to face a new problem because in the apprenticeship schools the Roma students have to go through on-the-job training and are being refused by the owners of private companies who are supposed to get them involved. The owners do not say they will not provide this opportunity to students of Roma origin but will always find an excuse. Once the anti-discrimination Bill becomes effective we will see a number of court cases or legal actions against the owners of private companies that have refused to employ the young Roma population for on-the-job training. This will soon be a serious problem.

To return to the other part of the work of this committee, namely, equality and women's rights, we have two commissions in the Parliament that deal with these issues. We have a commission on equal opportunities and one on the family, which also defends the rights of women.

Chairman

I call Deputy Flanagan, the Fine Gael spokesperson on justice matters.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I thank the Chairman and join him in welcoming the delegation from the Czech Republic. I hope they have a pleasant few days in our country. I am delighted we have had this opportunity to exchange views on matters of importance in the equality, law reform and justice area.

One of the principal functions of this committee is to deal with matters of justice, including criminal justice. There is one issue of some importance to us in Ireland that I would like the delegates to take up on their return to their home Parliament, namely, the ever-increasing reports that criminal gangs operating in this city and beyond are availing of expert firearm training in the Czech Republic and in firearms ranges in the Prague area. The delegation might be able to assist us in this area. We have a real problem with the operation of criminal gangs, particularly in the drugs trade. I would like the delegation to address this issue from the perspective of the Czech Parliament. I do not object to firearms ranges and the use of guns in lawful sporting endeavour. People can willingly be trained in the use of sophisticated lethal weaponry with no need to produce a passport, identification, registration or log book. This can be done for as little as €50 for an afternoon. We have had reports that members of criminal gangs can do so.

I hope the Czech Parliament and Government will look at a system of registration and the use of log books in regard to this, and if a person wishes to engage in such training, he or she should have to register. In the context of greater co-operation between our respective police forces, should a person who availed of training be on trial subsequently in this country for a serious criminal offence, perhaps involving loss of life or very serious drugs crimes, evidence of such training might be given in court. That a person availed of such training could be proved by the production of a registration book to which police would have access.

This would be helpful and I hope the delegation has a view on the matter which will accord with the attempt to address the problem. It can be looked at in the context of EU legislation and a firearms directive is at a very early stage of discussion. If the Czech Parliament introduced a change in regulation or the law, it would be most helpful to us in this country. I ask the delegation to consider the matter.

Mr. Stanislav Krecek, MP

In reply to the comments of Deputy Flanagan, we must distinguish between two types of problem. The first consists of gangs of criminals who travel through European countries and pursue their activities in the territories of various states. We have our own experiences with these gangs, who are often heavily armed, when they undertake their enterprises in our country. We have experience with gangs from the former Soviet Union, including groups of criminals from Chechnya who are capable of shooting in the middle of Prague at noon. Shortly before we left for Dublin there were two cases of shooting at Wenceslas Square in which people were hurt, if not killed. These "brigades", as they are often referred to, are a bit of a problem. This problem is multiplied by the fact that we are all now members of the Schengen area, with no passport or border controls, so the problem of these travelling gangs of criminals is increasing. That is one side of the issue. The other side is the use of weapons. I am pursuing closely the issues of use of firearms and training because I enjoy shooting as a sporting activity. That affects my perspective on this issue.

We have private firing ranges where a person can come and use the range to train or to practise shooting but there are two conditions. The first is that the person must own his or her own weapon. It is not possible to come to a firing range, rent a weapon and learn how to shoot. The second condition is that the person must present a weapon pass or armoury pass which states that he or she is entitled to be in possession of a firearm in the Czech Republic, before any shooting can take place at a private firing range. It is impossible to train without owning one's own weapon. Current legislation in the Czech Republic enables ownership and possession of firearms at a number of levels. It is strictly defined by the law and these requirements must be met before one is entitled to hold or own a gun or a weapon.

Of course we could tackle the issues of firearm possession within EU legislation but, to be honest, this will be a big problem in the future if it is tabled and discussed within the European Union. I am afraid that to provide or to keep records of people who visit private firing ranges is an impossibility for the time being due to current legislation in the country. As I have already indicated, a person must own a weapon to be able to visit a private firing range in our country and must be in possession of a pass to be able to shoot there.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

A Czech pass?

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

A Czech weapon pass.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

That would mean that only Czech people could avail of the training but this is clearly not so.

Chairman

How do people coming from outside the Czech Republic get their firearms? Can they hire or buy them?

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

If a person wishes to purchase a firearm in the Czech Republic a Czech firearm pass must be presented before that can happen. I cannot imagine a foreigner coming to the Czech Republic and being able to buy a firearm there.

When a person purchases a firearm for personal use with the firearm pass, the evidence of purchase, together with the production code of the firearm, is registered by the police. The police hold a register of firearms sold in the Czech Republic, by name or by owner. If one wishes to get rid of a firearm, whether to sell it or simply because of a wish not to use it any longer, one must report to the police in order to be excluded as an owner from the database and one must give the details of the new owner. Compared with other European countries, the records of firearms are quite extensive and good.

Mr. Jaroslav Plachy, MP

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak. Let me speak of my personal experience with respect to firearms. The Czech legislation which regulates the possession of firearms is very strict. If there is a case of somebody being trained at a private firing range it is most probably an illegal act that should be reported and should be disciplined using the current legislation. To give a better perspective, most of the Czech population - or most Czech men - went through compulsory military service where they were trained in the use of firearms. Most of the Czech population would be capable of using a firearm, be it a pistol, revolver or machine gun. Despite the fact that I may appear a peaceful person, I have been through military service and I know how to operate a firearm or machine gun. However, I will not pose a threat to any society in Europe simply because I have no access to firearms in the Czech Republic. Nobody would sell firearms to me because I do not own a firearms licence. That is the core of the issue. Nevertheless, should one experience or encounter somebody who has been trained in the use of firearms in the Czech Republic, we would be more than happy if this information could be forwarded to us and we will do our best to ensure the best possible co-operation between the police forces and judicial authorities to ensure justice is done.

Chairman

I invite Deputy Dinny McGinley, Vice Chairman of the committee, who has been waiting patiently to speak.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Go raibh maith agat. I would like to be associated with the remarks of welcome to the visiting deputation. I hope it has a most enjoyable stay during its visit to Ireland. Like many from Ireland I have had the pleasure of visiting the Czech Republic and particularly Prague where I had a very enjoyable number of days. I note one of the members of the deputation, Mr. Jiri Carbol, is the vice chairman of the committee for health care. In Ireland we seem to have a continuous crisis as far as health care is concerned. Perhaps Mr. Carbol can give a brief outline of how the problem of health care is addressed in the Czech Republic. Is health care universal? Is it private or public? Are there waiting lists? How is the system funded? How has the Czech Republic come to grips with and addressed health care problems?

Mr. Jiri Carbol, MP

I thank the Chairman for giving me the floor and I thank the Deputy for his question. We could spend hours discussing the health care system of the Czech Republic. I will give members a brief description of the current situation with the health care system.

Since the last parliamentary elections we have had a new Minister of Health who is introducing reforms as we speak. We are enjoying a high level of health care in our country, which costs us only 7% of the gross domestic product per year. We are doing quite well in terms of the financial demands of the health care system.

The reform legislation that will be discussed in the House of Parliament in the months to come will be closely observed and monitored by the other institutions because we have ten health insurance companies that are public insurance companies, whereas two thirds of all health care institutions in the country are privately owned, either by municipality cities or villages, and they are run by city councils or regional councils.

On the question of waiting lists, we do not have any waiting lists but we are discussing the issue of defining a standard level of health care, in other words, what shall be accessible to any inhabitant of our country within the framework of the basic health insurance scheme and what will have to be paid for by the patients.

The latest change in our health care system was experienced on 1 January this year when so-called regulatory fees were introduced. They are €1 per visit to a doctor or a drug store. Of course, the discussion about the reforms of the Czech health care system will be closely observed by our colleagues in Hungary and Slovakia, where similar steps are being taken. The outcome of the reforms of the health care system, which will be discussed in the course of this year, will significantly influence the decisions of other countries with respect to reform of their health care systems.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

I have a special reason for welcoming the delegation from the Czech Republic. I represent the Waterford constituency. Senator Bacik has mentioned Waterford Crystal. There was another native of Czechoslovakia in Waterford, Miroslav Havel, whose son recently wrote a book about him called Maestro of Crystal. He had a masters degree in crystal technology and played a huge part in building up an industry which, 20 years ago, was employing 3,500 people in my constituency. Unfortunately, things are not going as well now in terms of the numbers employed, its markets and so forth, but it is an important link with the Czech Republic for my constituency.

I have not visited the Czech Republic but I visited Slovakia in the early part of this decade. It was between the time this country rejected the Nice treaty and then voted for it. We were visiting the country to reassure the senior politicians that Ireland was not anti-enlargement and that people opposed the treaty for other reasons.

I note that Mr. Carbol is a member of the sub-committee for the disabled. How advanced are Czech services for people with disabilities across the range of disabilities? To what extent does the country's anti-discrimination legislation address the issue of disability?

Mr. Jiri Carbol, MP

Let me just clarify that I have started to deal with the area of what we call the social services. In 2000, when I was deputy regional governor, I was already dealing with the same issues as I currently deal with in Parliament - one level below the structure of the regional division of the country. The situation as regards services for disabled people in our society has changed significantly with the adoption of the Social Services Act, which has changed the procedural rules on matters concerning the disabled. Before the Social Services Act was adopted, financial resources for the disabled were distributed towards the organisations that provided such services, whereas now with the new Act, disabled individuals themselves receive a certain amount of money each month with which they purchase services from various organisations. This is being widely discussed at the moment because some people say the system should be adjusted since not all disabled people use the money they receive every month for the purchase of social services from these various organisations. The organisations suffer from not having enough clients and are struggling to survive. The question is whether or not the regulations will be passed in an amendment to the Social Services Act. Basically, however, the system has been changed and is working satisfactorily.

Chairman

Do members have any further questions? If not, I would like to bring our discussion to a conclusion by thanking Mr. Krecek and his delegation for attending the committee. We hope their stay in Ireland has been a successful and enjoyable one. Their contributions to the committee have helped further our understanding of the way in which the Czech Parliament works, as well as some of the issues they, as fellow parliamentarians, are confronted with on a daily basis.

Mr. Stanoslav Krecek, MP

I want to take this opportunity to express our thanks and gratitude for this opportunity to meet you, Chairman, and the other members of the committee. I was particularly interested in the question of private firing ranges and the training of foreign nationals at these firing ranges. Let me assure the committee that on our return to the Czech Parliament, I will get in touch with the chairperson of the security committee and will inform him about this issue. We will try to investigate the current status of this issue. Should we find out more information, we will be more than happy to come back to the committee with the details. I thank the committee for its attention.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I thank you for making that offer to us which I am sure Deputy Charles Flanagan, in particular, appreciates. Is there any other business? If not, I adjourn the meeting sine die.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. sine die.