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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jan 2010

Role of Defence Forces in Promoting Physical Fitness: Discussion.

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the role the Defence Forces could play in the promotion of physical fitness and posture development in schools. I am grateful to Dr. Noel Richardson and Mr. Michael McDonough for their attendance to assist the joint committee in its consideration of this issue. Submissions received from them have been circulated. A submission will be received from Professor Niall Moyna in the near future. Each of the delegates will make a brief presentation for approximately ten minutes to the committee. The presentations will be followed by a question and answer session.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. McDonough to proceed.

Mr. Michael McDonough

I joined the Army in 1949 and graduated from the cadet school in 1950. I worked in the Army until 1965 and at one stage was in charge of in-service courses for soldiers, NCOs and officers in the Army's school of physical culture, as it was called at the time. The idea was that we would train Army people to be instructors in their various units. One of the basic courses was a six-month course which included a number of academic-type subjects such as anatomy, physiology and so forth. Mainly, however, it was a practical course in which the skills of a variety of activities were introduced.

At the time physical education in schools either was not provided or there might have been a competitive sports programme. Perhaps sometimes there is that division but one can bring the two sides together, that is, training for competitive sports and physical activity for the sake of well-being.

Following on from the Army courses, quite a few of the people who were trained went out to the vocational education committees and began to teach physical education in schools. They became quite well known in the Dublin and Cork areas, in particular. People who had trained in the Army school of physical culture became instructors-teachers in the various schools. They were accepted and, as time went on, other teachers began to be trained in Britain. When they moved back home, they were taken on by schools. However, the majority of physical education was undertaken by Sion Hill and Ling colleges of education where girls were taught to be PE teachers. They did not have a second subject and were solely PE teachers.

In 1965, when I was appointed by the Department of Education to be the first inspector of physical education, there was not much to inspect, except in the girls' schools, and so a development programme was required. We did not have a college in Ireland training male teachers. Some people went to England and Strawberry Hill in Twickenham was quite popular. Dr. John Kane became involved with us at that time with the idea of establishing the national college of physical education in Limerick. That is all jumbled together but my role in the Department of Education at that time was to supervise that work, the establishment of a sports council, etc.

Time moved on, teachers were trained in Limerick and the boys' schools employed them. The men and the women were trained together there; it was not like Ling and Sion Hill which only trained women. That was the beginning of my involvement at education level.

My background was in the Army and I could see the links between armies worldwide and physical activities in their various countries. In Sweden, Germany and France, much of the early work done was of an army mode. I suppose the objective was to make the general population fit and well in case it had to go to war. A number of articles were published at that time in Britain stating they were worried about the fitness of young people since the army would say it needed them. They did a variety of tests.

Time passed and the focus gradually turned to educating young people to live a life in which activity was part of their lifestyle both for their health's sake and in order that they would have a satisfactory lifestyle of which physical activity was a part.

I will now turn to the present and how the Army might contribute. I am torn between the two functions I had — one in the Army and the other in education. However, a link can quite easily be created between organisations for the betterment of the people.

I made a number of points which I thought might be useful to run through to help members to focus on their main objective, that is, to see how the Defence Forces might contribute. If one says we are doing a programme for young people, old people or for those who are middle aged, one might alienate other people. It is very important that the population at large learns to play together and that they are encouraged to be active together. "Play" is perhaps one of the fundamental words about which we should think as well as physical activity. Play is older than mankind and humanity. Animals played before we came along. Therefore, all the activities we do should have a play element incorporated into them.

While there may be co-operation with governing bodies of sport, which have a firm focus on particular sports, the public view should be of participation by all citizens, regardless of club affiliation. The Army should make a contribution which might focus on one or other group but it should not alienate another group. Men tend to be alienated in terms of walking because women are so good at it. One sees them walking on the roads; sometimes they bring their husbands with them. We need to think in terms of the broader public.

The Army Reserve support would require an overlap of Army aims with projects. If, for example, the Army aim is to get a greater number of people in the Army to encourage Army people to integrate as citizens and make a voluntary contribution, that pragmatic approach would be very helpful. When I say "pragmatic approach", I mean doing the job.

I had much experience with a group called Gymnastique Volontaire in France. It is supported by the government there and is a good example of health enhancing physical activity whose participants and practices could be studied and adopted, where suitable. There could be an integration of Army support in that because I have seen that happen in France. Gymnastique Volontaire has a membership of millions and it is supported by the state. Its aims and objectives are health enhancing physical activity.

I will not go into detail on the following but the rainbow walking programme would suit the Army very well as a way to link it to physical activity for the general public. I taught in Sligo IT until this year. The students introduced the rainbow walking programme to their parents and supervised them while they did the programme, and the parents and the students came into the college at the end of the 22-week programme. This was an example of integration of parents and students in physical activity. Some of those involved in this were FCA members.

In Sligo IT, quite a few of the Army people were those who could deliver on the walking programme and on the orienteering and other types of programmes. One can see it happening but it is not programmed.

A challenge day programme, for example, is another type of activity that could quite easily be done. It sounds military, in a sense, if one has a town like Leipzig competing against a town like Waterford. The idea is to determine on one particular day what percentage of the population would be involved in physical activity for more than 20 minutes. That is easy to measure. One just gets organised. In the end of the day, the town that wins flies its flag over the town hall of the town that loses. It sounds military, and I would suggest it could quite easily be organised by the local FCA.

I remember being in a primary school in Waterford and telling the children that the challenge day was the following week. Gera, the town with which they competed, is not far from Leipzig. I told them that if Waterford lost, they would have to fly the flag of Gera over the town hall and I showed them the Gera flag, which was the colours of Kilkenny. There are no prizes for guessing how many of the Waterford children, and their parents, turned out in that instance.

Links with school programmes are important. To get Army involvement, it is probably based on the idea that we have a good school programme, primary and post-primary.

Our educational system is based on examinations. I suppose there is not much wrong with that, but nevertheless there is no examination for PE. Even if one had it at the junior level, it would mean that the PE teacher would not feel in the staff room somewhat deprived of status because he or she is in a tracksuit and out running around, but not involved when it comes to examinations. There might be a key.

On the Irish Sports Council programmes in the area of Sport for All, Sport for All is a Council of Europe document which outlines everything, from A to Z, the council recommends for sport. I do not see much in the newspapers about Sport for All activity, even, in the case of a marathon, for instance, to see who won or came second. Who cares who won — maybe somebody such as the runners' mothers do. The important aspect is the number of people who take part.

Research on physical activity is conducted by the Irish Research Institute. It is seen a lot, but I reckon that if one was to stop the majority of people in the street and ask had they read what the Irish Research Institute states about physical activity, one would get an answer in the negative. There needs to be publicity on the numbers taking part in Gaelic football, soccer, swimming, and so on. That tapestry is important. However, when the Irish Research Institute is commissioned by the sports council to do this work, the publicity is negligible. Perhaps there is no interest.

The involvement of professional groups from universities and IT courses linking with, perhaps, the FCA is a great possibility. Perhaps that is where the Army could contribute. When I was in the Army I saw what was happening and things have changed since then. The Army now has a role. It goes abroad. It has things to do. When we spoke of attacking and killing all enemy there, we did not know who the enemy was. Now they do not attack or kill them, but at least they know what the problems are.

The Army could be linked to physical well-being and physical activity. Perhaps the Army Reserve, what was the FCA, which has a little hut in every town in Ireland could fulfil a function. Perhaps they could use the Rainbow Walking Programme as a mode, because they can do marching. When we ran programmes we used get permission from Army barracks to use their drill masters to do some marching. People loved walking and loved the stylised form of it, not everyday but on occasion.

I was in the Army. I spent a great deal of time working in the Department of Education and Science and I spent a great deal of time with a Sport for All organisation trying to get people to be more active, for instance, in triathlon challenge days. The possibilities are immense. It seems that many of the skills I used I learned in the Army and perhaps the Army has a contribution to make again.

I thank Mr. McDonough. I do not know whether he realised how appropriate was his story about the challenge day programme, the Waterford school and the Kilkenny flag because three of the members present are from Waterford and we know exactly what he means. I ask Dr. Richardson to make his presentation.

Dr. Noel Richardson

I am delighted to lend my support to the proposal before the committee this afternoon, which is to look at a potential role for the Defence Forces in supporting the promotion of physical activity and physical fitness and the development of physical education in schools.

Like Mr. McDonough, I am wearing several hats here. In the first instance, I was a member of the Defence Forces for 12 years. I was commissioned in 1986. During that time I worked very much in physical education within the Defence Forces. It struck me today while travelling here that I was involved at the time in research on fitness, physical activity and lifestyle patterns among Defence Forces personnel. I was close to finishing the report for the Defence Forces when somehow some of the headlines of the report leaked to the press. I remember waking up one Tuesday morning to the following headline in The Star, “Tubby Troops trip and end in a mess”. I ended in a mess that time as well and I was called before the Chief of Staff to explain how these results had got out. Somehow they had leaked, but that is an aside.

I was 25 years in the Defence Forces last November and I went to a reunion at which there was a really big turn-out. Interestingly enough, at that reunion many of my former classmates spoke about the Army as an outdoor life and the physical activity elements of it. Whether it was being up on Lugnaquilla trying to read a map or abseiling or rock-climbing down in Kerry, there were strong physical activity and fitness elements to the Defence Forces that we all, with the benefit of hindsight, really appreciated for developing our skills, not just in terms of healthy lifestyle but in terms of leadership, teamwork and confidence building. One of the key arguments I would make today is that the Defence Forces could have a potentially key role in that regard, not just in promoting physical activity and fitness, but in bringing the expertise within the Defence Forces to support such skills development among schoolchildren.

The second hat I am wearing is that of a PE teacher. I graduated from Thomond College in 1988. I am passionate about the role of physical education and concerned that it has had a peripheral role in schools for too long.

The third hat I am wearing is that of one who has been passionate about sport all his life. I was an athlete for several years and I have been involved in coaching and training teams in more recent years. I have been trainer to the Kilkenny hurling team for the past four years. I am delighted to announce that to the Waterford members.

So Dr. Richardson is responsible.

Dr. Noel Richardson

I would like to claim a small level of kudos for that. I also coach the under six O'Loughlin Gaels camogie team, which is probably my real job. My daughter plays on that team.

The fourth hat I am wearing is that of a father of four daughters who sees the immense value of activity, fitness and physical education. Four years ago I had the benefit of living in Australia for a year and would make the following comparison. Our three older children went to public school where the focus on activity, fitness and physical education at primary school level was something to behold. When one returns to Ireland, one is concerned that we lag behind in this regard. That is the context in which I view the issue.

I will go through the three key arguments quickly. The first is the health argument which I have outlined in the document I submitted to the committee. I will not go into the issue in detail now. The problem of obesity must be considered within the health argument. I have quoted extensively from a report, in the production of which Professor Niall Moyna is involved, which is sponsored by the Irish Sports Council and will be published shortly. We are all aware also of the findings of the obesity task force. Obesity is a time bomb and if we do not tackle it in children, we will face serious health consequences down the line. There is strong evidence to support this. The rate of increase in obesity levels in the past 20 years is frightening and we will be reneging on our responsibility if we do not tackle the issue. If people are obese as children, it will be very difficult for them not to be obese as adults. That is the stark reality.

The second argument concerns physical activity levels. The report of Professor Moyna and Dr. Catherine Woods highlights that at primary level less than one in five children meets the national guidelines for physical activity, while at secondary level, the figure is even lower — at 12%. Therefore, the majority of Irish schoolchildren do not meet the recommended national guidelines for physical activity. There is also grave concern about the decline in the physical activity levels of both boys and girls as they advance through the post-primary system, with 16 to 18 year old girls being the least likely to meet the physical activity recommendations. We have an academic environment in schools, where the focus is on attaining leaving certificate points. As children advance through the system, the focus on physical education and activity levels is reduced. We are sitting by and doing nothing about it, which is a disgrace.

We must consider physical education. In this regard, we are looking at the potential role of the Defence Forces. The findings are stark. One third of primary schoolchildren do not meet the Department of Education and Science's recommendation of 60 minutes activity a week. At post-primary level, almost three out of every four or over 70% of students do not meet the Department's guidelines. That is a disgrace.

With regard to the provision of facilities, only one in five primary schools has its own multipurpose indoor hall, while at post-primary level, one third of principals reported that they did not have a multipurpose indoor hall on site. Some 50% of primary school principals and 42% of post-primary principals reported that the available sports facilities were inadequate. I highlight these figures to illustrate the glaring gaps within the education system that need to be filled by other sectors. The argument I make is that the Defence Forces have a key role to play in meeting these needs.

I would like to mention some of the specific recommendations made in Professor Moyna's report. He will make a submission in this regard. He suggests education policy must derive ways of supporting schools to adhere to the full physical education curriculum. One of the big limitations of the PE curriculum is that it does not cover the full spectrum of activities. The Defence Forces have a plethora of qualified personnel, PE teachers, exercise and fitness instructors and leaders in various activities such as water safety and outdoor education. These are a significant resource. There is also a vast resource of equipment, halls, gymnasia and swimming pools, etc. that could eliminate the glaring gaps in the school system.

Professor Moyna's report states after-school physical activity and sports experiences are a crucial link in the chain of participation and that the school-community link is essential in ensuring lifelong participation. Significant numbers of schoolchildren do not participate in any activity outside school. The Defence Forces are a significant resource that could support such activity. The report recommends that physical activity and sport receive multi-agency policy support in all relevant sectors. Why should the Defence Forces not contribute to such a multi-agency approach?

The report suggests funding must be allocated to ensure all schools have access to facilities and that grants must be made available to this end. We know that in the current economic environment funding and grants will not be available. Therefore, the onus is on us to find existing resources to support a multi-agency approach. The report also suggests there should be a more varied range of activities. The Defence Forces have expertise and the qualified personnel to support this. I have mentioned in my submission issues such as leadership, confidence building and teamwork. Who better than Defence Forces personnel to support the development of these skills in schools?

There are significant gaps in the system in dealing with obesity, inadequate physical activity levels and our inadequate PE programme. There is no question about this, the evidence is there for us to see. Professor Moyna's report which will be published shortly is the most damning I have seen to date. We need to look creatively at any possibilities to address these issues. I have mentioned the gaps in my submission. However, there are international examples to show what can be done. The cadets Canada programme which evolved from an arrangement between the Federal Government in Canada and local school boards contributes significantly to the development of physical education programmes and the promotion of physical fitness in Canadian schools. It is an example of a specific link between the involvement of defence forces and the education sector in promoting physical activity. An even better example can be found in France where the Commission's army youth programme, a week-long programme run by the French military authorities, promotes physical activities, education and programmes. Such programmes benefit the children involved but also nurture good relations between the military, schools and the wider community.

It would be remiss of me to concentrate only on what the Defence Forces could provide. There is also an opportunity and potential for the Defence Forces to develop and improve their links with schools and the wider community. I mention in my submission the troops to teacher programme in the USA. I should mention also that we have personnel qualified as PE teachers, exercise and fitness instructors, coaches and leaders across all the sports organisations in the country. These military personnel would bring expertise that would enhance education in schools. The experience gained from the programme followed in the American model is that military veterans bring a wealth of experience to the teaching profession, including leadership, organisational ability, presentation and instruction skills. They also bring with them a model of training and professional development grounded in the need to maintain a healthy and active lifestyle and to stay physically active. I owe much to my Army training. I am now out of the Defence Forces longer than I was in the force, as I left 14 years ago. However, I continue to bring the skills and values I developed as a member of the Defence Forces to the work I do today and continue to rely on these skills in my teaching profession. I have been involved in recent years in research into men's health and the skills I learned have been hugely valuable.

What we need to consider is not the Defence Forces taking over responsibility for physical education from the professionally organised structure in place but helping to fill the gaps. There are gaps in resources and personnel. Professor Moyna's report mentions that many unqualified personnel teach PE in schools because of the lack of a sufficient number of qualified PE teachers. The Defence Forces could play a role in promoting physical activity and fitness through its skillsets, personnel and resources. There is also potential for and value in the Defence Forces nurturing good relations with schools and the wider community.

I thank the Chairman for inviting these two experts to address us. We are very fortunate that we have two people with such proven expertise. Mr. McDonough has expertise from his time in the Defence Forces and dealing with the provision of physical education and Dr. Richardson from his time in the Defence Forces, involvement in education and sport at a high level. They both bring significant knowledge with them and demonstrate how the expertise available in the Defence Forces can be transferred to the broader community, whether in schools or the community in general. We are really looking at mass participation. It is not a sectoral thing — it is mass participation. We are considering how the Defence Forces can influence the level of fitness in this country, across the spectrum from the cradle to death, more or less — from very young to very old. As the witnesses said, there is an obesity problem in this country. We are sitting on a medical time bomb that has been developing for some time. While the cardiovascular problem in this country is improving, we continue to have a low rank among European countries as regards cardiovascular fitness.

There is also a postural crisis in this country. Posture is not being studied, but I am sure it will be in the years ahead. We are examining obesity, but we are not examining posture. Medical people will confirm that modern lifestyles, which involve crouching over computers or school desks, cause major postural problems. Those who teach the Alexander technique in this country are very busy at the moment, as they treat those who suffer from back and neck pain, or problems with lung and heart functions.

I have mentioned three of the many issues that will have to be responded to by a national interdepartmental Government agency. I suggest that the Defence Forces can play a role in this regard. Such an approach is being taken in countries like the United States, Canada, France and the United Kingdom. I hope it will happen here too in some form. As the delegates said, we do not want the Defence Forces to have total responsibility for this approach. They can play their part, however. If we want to address this issue, we will have to use all the resources available to us.

I got some very good information from the Minister when I asked a question in the Dáil about the Defence Forces. Some 42 members of the Defence Forces have degrees in physical education. In addition, there are 236 fully-qualified physical training instructors in the Defence Forces. Many officers and non-commissioned officers in the Permanent Defence Force have qualifications in various sports. The same thing also applies to the Reserve Defence Force. The full body of knowledge that is being used within the Defence Forces could also be used in the community at large.

I would like to speak about personnel and facilities. The witnesses mentioned the very good facilities that are being used throughout the country. I understand that the Curragh swimming pool is used by approximately 20 schools. Local communities use the facilities at the barracks in Athlone and Galway, although they would have a greater impact if they did so in a structured way.

I would like to ask a couple of questions. Team building has become very important in this country. People from the Taoiseach down are advocating the importance of teamwork. Do our guests agree that the Defence Forces have a key role to play throughout the community in providing experiences, such as obstacle courses and orienteering, within the narrow concept of team building?

I would also like to ask the delegates about postural development. Do they believe, on the basis of their own experience, that the Defence Forces can play a very important role in the simple development of posture?

Dr. Noel Richardson

I agree that the Defence Forces can play a huge role in team building, which was one of the first things I referred to in my presentation. Building teamwork and improving morale are part and parcel of every Defence Forces training course. Such matters are part of the essence of soldiers' training and professional development. They come naturally to every member of the Defence Forces. I suggest that soldiers should be asked to bring such skills to bear in schools, for example, as part of some kind of programme. There could be a focus on using physical activity and education as a means of developing team building. Deputy Deenihan mentioned problem solving tasks like orienteering and little obstacle courses. Children should be encouraged to work in a physically active way to solve problems as part of a team. Society will benefit if children are physically active, develop good interpersonal skills such as teamwork and build self-confidence.

I am interested in the Deputy's comments about posture. I mentioned in a light-hearted way that I am involved with the under-six O'Loughlin Gaels camogie team in Kilkenny. My daughter plays for that team and the under-eight team. I agree that posture and basic running technique have been ignored at a cost. I see it with older players as well. A great deal can be done to teach basic posture and good running technique to children. Such matters, which are part and parcel of Army training, are not being taught to children at present. One is marching from the day one joins the Defence Forces. Posture is at the core of what a soldier does from day one. It would not take much for the Defence Forces to make a real contribution in that regard.

Mr. Michael McDonough

The competence of physical education teachers in analysing the posture of children is a fundamental issue that must be tackled. I do not think anybody has legs that are the same length as each other. There is a slight tilt in everybody's hips. Everybody has a form of scoliosis that corrects itself in most cases. Children who have an extreme form of scoliosis need to be helped at an early stage. If that does not happen, their postural problems will become exaggerated. In the 1960s or 1970s — where did all the time go — we invited a professor of posture cultivation to come to Ireland from an Israeli university. Many countries, such as Switzerland, have posture cultivation organisations. People learn how to lie on balls, how to sit properly and how to select the right type of chair. The professor in question organised two courses for physical education teachers at Newbridge College. The courses in question, each of which lasted two weeks, were sufficiently concentrated to lead to a college diploma in posture cultivation. One would be amazed at the number of physical education teachers who are able to refer children with postural problems to local doctors, or draw the attention of their parents to such problems. That is an extreme example. Deputy Deenihan was talking about general posture. Non-commissioned officers sometimes have to tell soldiers to stand up straight. A fundamental programme that caters for the highly technical side of this issue would be of extreme benefit when it comes to activities like marching and walking.

Dr. Noel Richardson

There needs to be an awareness among teachers of the problems that can exist in this regard. They should know when it is appropriate to refer such problems to someone else. If such problems are ignored, rather than tackled, they can develop into something more serious.

Mr. Michael McDonough

When I attended a course in Ringsend, I did not have any children to work on. I walked out, picked two children and brought them in. Perhaps I should not have done that. The two boys in question were from the same family. After I had done a test on their hip bones, both of them had to be referred to medical doctors. They were at the age at which something could be done about it. If one shoe is made a little taller than the other, for example, this problem can be corrected for the rest of one's life. It is amazing. There is a world of imperfection but a slight correction can make a big difference.

In general, people love walking. I have experience of walking programmes, as part of which an NCO marches a group of civilians. They love it and believe it is fun in the knowledge that they will not be put in jail if they do not do it correctly. The Army can make a contribution that is both professional and motivational.

Dr. Noel Richardson

There are many ex-Army instructors running boot camps on a commercial basis. There is an appeal to these activities. I discussed men's health with a colleague in Australia and he said the number of problems diagnosed among boys in that country had gone through the roof in recent years. I refer to ADHD and other behavioural problems. He believes there is over-diagnosis. Is it any wonder that boys suffer from these conditions when they are made to sit in chairs for five or six hours a day?

Mr. Michael McDonough

It does not surprise us.

Dr. Noel Richardson

Perhaps young lads need more outlets to let off a bit of steam. The man to whom I spoke believes there is over-diagnosis of problems and that we need to recognise boys and girls are a little different. The culture and structure of schools do not always tie in with how boys behave. Boys and, possibly, girls would value the military approach. I am not suggesting it should take over but that it is fun. I have great memories of training as a cadet. It was serious but also fun and one laughed it off at the end of the day.

I return to the question Deputy Deenihan asked Dr. Richardson. Reference was made to the number of trained personnel in the Army and all the others in the organisation. They would know what to do because of their training. Dr. Richardson referred to presentation skills. Do the personnel have these skills or would they need to be trained in this regard?

Dr. Noel Richardson

Anybody at NCO level would have done basic training, be it in respect of making a presentation, standing in front of a group or structuring a teaching session. Outside the Defence Forces, it would form part and parcel of a level 1 or 2 coaching course for Gaelic games or soccer, for example. It is very much within the professional development of any soldier to corporal level. At officer level, there is a considerable focus on developing good presentation and report writing skills, in addition to oral presentation skills. The personnel concerned are definitely equipped with skills in that regard. Physical education teachers can conduct physical education classes generally but the skills of somebody with a water safety or orienteering qualification could be used to support them in schools. Defence Forces personnel could run specific activities in their areas that they are equipped to run. It would not mean assuming the role of the physical education teacher but working in partnership with him or her with a view to offering support.

I thank Dr. Richardson and Mr. McDonough for their presentations. What they are suggesting has tremendous potential. Dr. Richardson mentioned Commandant Joe O'Keeffe. I am a past pupil of his. I am a national school teacher and was trained by him for two years.

One issue that has arisen is good posture. Part of the programme Commandant O'Keefe taught us emphasised strongly the principle of compensatory movement. If one does something at the front, one does something at the back to compensate. It is a basic point but often overlooked. In one of our first lectures Commandant O'Keeffe told us General MacArthur had maintained his fitness and prevented weight increase with 75 exercise manoeuvres: 25 press-ups, 25 stomach crunches and 25 repetitions of a compensatory back exercise. It may not have been that simple but the commandant used this story to make his point. His programme was an adaptation of an American scheme he had experienced when in the United States. He was very impressed by it. I used it throughout my teaching career and the children liked it.

My school had sports, including hurling and football but particularly athletics. I did not know how to coach a child with a particular ability beyond a certain point. At the time Bord Lúthchleas na hÉireann was offering courses to teachers and all the national school coaches attended. I found them very useful. There is nothing as bad as bad coaching because it has to be undone. If, at the courses, I picked up a couple of pointers that would help me to improve the children's standard, I gained from them. The Army has a range of skills and coaching abilities that could very well be used.

When I was in training college, I did a lot of circuit training but as my political career developed, I developed a sedentary lifestyle and became overweight. As a consequence, I developed type-2 diabetes. This is now a huge problem in society and arises in many cases from obesity. Women under 40 years used not become diabetic to any great extent but they do now. Children as young as 11 years have developed diabetes. When I became diabetic, I told my consultant that nobody in my family, for as far back as I could determine, had had diabetes. He told me to remember that our ancestors all did hard physical work and were, therefore, burning off excess sugar. The condition did not develop as a consequence. Some 25% of the population either have diabetes or the potential to develop it. It is a considerable health issue, on which I will not elaborate further.

While what is being proposed is aimed at schools, the point has been made that we can reach out to all age groups through the schools. I strongly believe the skills in the Army are not fully utilised in the interests of the community. It seems there will be a decrease in the Army's involvement overseas because of the state of the country's finances. This means we will have more Army personnel to develop programmes such as that proposed. It is an opportune time to proceed with it.

Mr. McDonough referred to the Defence Forces Reserve, of which the former Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Gerry McMahon, is in charge. There has been a pattern, whereby recruitment has not worked out. There is a stay on recruitment. If a programme is interfacing with the community and giving great satisfaction, it could be a way of strengthening the role and personnel in the Defence Forces Reserve.

One issue that arises in respect of exercise is the compensation culture. I know of claims that have curtailed what can be done in a school. Irrespective of the merits of a claim, it has this effect. We will just have to live with this.

I am very impressed by the idea behind the programme. We should not just be talking about it because action should be taken. How should we roll out the programme nationally? Should doing so be our objective? At what level should the education system and the Defence Forces come into initial contact? It will filter out at lower levels as one proceeds but the process needs to be started and driven. People should be accountable for ensuring that it happens. Some of those ideas are very good but no one is driving them. I see it as important that there is accountability to the Oireachtas in terms of implementing it. If a policy decision is taken, then we should ensure that it is implemented. From the structure end of it, how do we get started on this? Not too many questions occur to me and I believe the potential is there. Essentially the questions I might ask would focus on detail in how matters can develop. My real concern, however, is how to get this started. That is my contribution at this stage.

Dr. Noel Richardson

That is obviously the challenge. The Reserve Defence Forces is a really useful mechanism with which to consider making the connection between the Defence Forces, the schools and the wider community. As the Deputy rightly says, this is appropriate in trying to make the Reserve Defence Forces an attractive proposition for second level school children so that they may apply for membership. Perhaps there could be some liaison involving the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Defence, through the Reserve Defence Forces.

Mr. Michael McDonough

Perhaps some form of pilot programme of a limited size might be the way forward, by proving that it can be done and that it is effective at a certain level.

Dr. Noel Richardson

Perhaps it might be carried out in a barracks in a town such as Athlone——

Mr. Michael McDonough

Or perhaps Bray, or in a county or whatever.

Dr. Noel Richardson

——where an audit could be done of the personnel there to establish who is potentially qualified and able to support the schools in that town. Then a working group could be developed between the schools and the personnel within the barracks to look at what activities might be rolled out over, say, a year or two, and to evaluate the situation and see how it goes.

Mr. Michael McDonough

That is correct. Care should be taken to ensure that no professional problems arise, in other words that some individual or other does not feel threatened. This is always a possibility when one goes into a professional area, so that must be planned, and very carefully.

Dr. Noel Richardson

Nothing will work unless there is adequate consultation at the outset between, say, teachers in the schools and the military. There must be consultation on both sides.

Mr. Michael McDonough

Parents, believe it or not, are the people to whom the children belong. We sometimes forget that. They might have a decision to make.

Dr. Noel Richardson

Absolutely, and Mr. McDonough has mentioned the compensation culture and that is a problem. However, I believe, the proposal would not involve sending anyone into the schools. It would be somebody with the relevant qualifications in his or her area, so that, for instance if he or she is to run an orienteering event this will entail being qualified by the national governing body for that sport.

Mr. Michael McDonough

Athletics is the same.

Dr. Noel Richardson

Athletics is the same and the school's insurance policy must be carefully examined to ensure that the person coming in is appropriately covered. These are the challenges being presented from developing the initiative from what is, as yet, essentially a talk-shop around the topic. It is an excellent idea to have it on a pilot basis, and to pick two or three areas in the country, looking perhaps, at an inner city area as well as a rural region such as Cavan or Monaghan to explore how the impact might differ in the respective areas. I am mindful of some of the areas referred to in my presentation where there are gaps as regards a physical education programme, particularly in inner city areas. I have in mind older girls in particular and the need to try and target the areas of most need.

I thank both gentlemen for the presentation. It is a very interesting debate and it is an area in which I have a particular interest. I take up where Deputy Brian O'Shea left off in terms of how to move things forward. I can foresee interdepartmental involvement here because really it affects everything, from health to defence to the environment, through to arts, sport and tourism or whatever. I wonder whether we, as a committee, can make recommendations to the various Departments. Some years ago it was decided to make disability an interdepartmental issue and a cross-departmental approach was adopted in tackling it.

There still has to be recognition that this needs to be one of the recommendations.

Yes, it is an enormous issue. In my background outside the Oireachtas I have been involved in a number of different businesses over the years. One of them was the health business, and I ran a health club for 14 years between 1986 and 2000, so I have come across many of the issues, such as sciatica, which can affect most people. If one puts a person flat on his or her back and checks the height of the two legs, one will be found nearly always to be longer because of posture. People tend to stand incorrectly and develop scoliosis, kyphosis and all the various conditions that can have enormous impact further down the line as they get older. We are all conscious of this. It is a plug for the "Gerry Ryan Show", I suppose, to say that I am with the Oireachtas group on the operation transformation panel. I am doing that not just because I have the exercise equipment at home but because of the discipline that will make me stick to the diet and do the exercise for the eight weeks.

I found that the biggest problem among customers was commitment because we depended on them to come in. Regardless of how good they might be inside in the health club, we depended on them to come back in. While January and February was always the good time, it was difficult to keep them going for the rest of the year.

It would be interesting to look at the issue raised in terms of the Sports Council of Ireland. I serve on the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport and Tourism and that is an issue I raised. We could have the greatest javelin throwers or discus throwers in Ireland, but we never know because people might not have the opportunity to hold a javelin or a discus at a young age, to demonstrate whether we have such athletes coming through. I raise that issue in terms of the sports council and how the facilities we have in the schools might be enhanced in terms of the simple things, not involving enormous expense. The provision of long-jump or high jump facilities, for instance, does not involve great expense.

When I ran the health club, we worked with all the schools. The PE teachers brought the students to us and we dealt only with the fifth and sixth years. They became familiar with aerobics, how to use treadmills, the weights machines and so on, and there was good co-operation between the schools and the facility. We were lucky in New Ross in that we have a swimming pool which meant that many of us were taught how to swim at a young age. The facility became enormously popular for the schools, which supported the business when I was there, purely on the basis of the different types of activity it provided for the students, and many of them enjoyed it.

I am mindful, too, that before my accident I hated PE, the horse and the other physical artefacts, but give me a ball for indoor soccer, rugby, hurling or football and it was great, or let me participate in long-distance running or something. Automatically, when I had my accident people thought I could play basketball. However, I could not play basketball to save my life before the accident, so the last thing I was going to do was take it up while in a wheelchair. That was the last thing I wanted to hear, but I should have loved to have done long-distance wheelchair pushing, for argument's sake. There are things one can do which can be inclusive.

I saw Deputy Deenihan's e-mail which was circulated this morning encouraging people to sign up for the Dublin city marathon

Perhaps the Deputy can do that.

No, I am past it now, I am afraid. The operation transformation is as far as I intend to go for the moment.

Many wheelchair people do these things, as the Deputy knows.

I know that. It is fantastic and they never get credit for the effort that goes into it. I know what it is like to push a mile, let alone 26 miles and they tend not to get the publicity at the end of the push.

I was just interested because I know he went to America to look at the cadet schools and what is going on there. Again, we had many people who were involved in outdoor activity, such as paint balling or skirmishing, all these things that bring people outdoors and which are competitive. I would strongly support a cadet school, say, or something similar that could be rolled out on a national basis. Initially, the way to go might be something along the lines of an activity week, where people are brought out into the countryside and become engaged right across the sectors, including people such as the Defence Forces and PE teachers. In this way the whole country could be engaged in a national week of activity, whether through active retirement or whatever. We have installed exercise equipment in many playgrounds in our public parks that are specifically aimed at the older individual. Some of them have just been unveiled in New Ross, although I am not sure about other parts of the country. That is a fantastic initiative. We are playing catch up with the development of our schools, but once schools have a reached a particular level, then every school should have a PE hall.

I just say to the Waterford lads that if they get fed up with Kilkenny they can come down to Wexford some time. I visited some friends this morning and——

We might combine our teams.

——they had four little cats in a row, and they told me they had planning permission in for the fifth.

This is a fantastic initiative with huge potential, but it needs to be driven forward. I would love to see it rolled out on a much wider basis.

Mr. Michael McDonough

We are speaking and we are using language, but everybody should have a vocabulary of movement by the time they leave school. They should be in a gymnasium and taught to move sideways, to jump, to land and so on. These are things most people can do, but some of them cannot do it efficiently. I have worked in Sligo IT over the past ten years on leisure and recreation courses as a part of business studies. I also give a course in track and field athletics because I am a coach. I coached John Lawlor for the Rome Olympics, and if it were not for the couple of Russians that had imbibed beforehand, he would have been the champion, but he came fourth. When we get the students into the gymnasium, we ask them to do a hop, step and jump. Three quarters of them are not able to do that.

Dr. Noel Richardson

They just do not have the basic co-ordination.

Mr. Michael McDonough

They just cannot figure it out, so much basic work has to be done. The military mind would be helpful in that respect.

I thank the delegates for their excellent presentation. We will have to get the Department of Health and Children to home in to the idea. Unless we have the Department on board, we will not go anywhere with it. When we speak of obesity, posture and so on, the Department should push these issues to prevent people going into hospital in the future.

We had a "sports for all" week a few years ago that worked fairly well, but it did not continue. We need to have something like that again, as Deputy Connick pointed out. We have not bought into the whole question of physical education at all. When we read that 78% of the Department's recommendations are not being followed, then that is a typical example. Unless we get a commitment from the Government to embark on a system of physical education, all we will do is talk to ourselves. We need to have an interdepartmental aspect to all of this.

I have a son who qualified as a PE teacher in Limerick this year. Out of the 60 people who are there, very few of them have full-time jobs. Many of them have gone to teach in Dubai and in England. It is a waste of resources to have all these people ready, willing and able to teach but who cannot get jobs. We need to look at it from an interdepartmental point of view, involving Departments with responsibility for education, health, sports and ourselves. The physical education teachers would welcome the support the Defence Forces working together with the aim of getting the nation fit and healthy.

From what they have said, the delegates probably agree that this has not been given enough priority by the Department of Education and Science. We are talking about getting Army involvement here. I know the delegates are ex-Army and are not involved at the moment, but do they think there would be any enthusiasm in the Army for the role we propose?

Dr. Noel Richardson

The vast majority of Defence Forces personnel are fathers with children who see the need for physical education. The spirit of what we are trying to do would be embraced. The nuts and bolts of developing this policy are the things the Defences Forces would immediately think about, such as how the schools would feel about it, litigation issues, sharing of resources and so on. There would have to be very careful planning and discussions on how things could move forward. In principle, the Defence Forces could see the potential for positive links to be developed with the wider community. It can only be put forward in a way that does not suggest the Defence Forces are taking over fitness and sport, but trying to support existing programmes and leaving the policy to the professionals within physical education.

I thank our two speakers. Mr. Michael McDonough is a role model for all of us. He is 80 years of age. He is going skiing next month, and he is the man who started physical education in this country because he produced a report in the 1960s that set up the National College of Physical Educationin Limerick. He has a very distinguished record and it is important to highlight it. If Dr. Richardson trains Kilkenny to win five in a row, it will be historic. The only two teams to do that before were Wexford in hurling and Kerry in football on two occasions.

I knew Kerry would come into it.

Sorry, it was Wexford in football as well. He will set a record if Kilkenny win five in a row. What kind of enthusiasm exists among the Defence Forces for this? From the inquiries I have made, it seems they are very enthusiastic at all levels. If the Defence Forces are asked to do something, they do it. If they are asked to close their barracks in 14 weeks, they do it. If they are instructed by the Minister to do something, they will do it. Our challenge is to get realistic proposals together. I am convinced that we will get results provided we are realistic and that the Minister and the Secretary General of the Department agrees with us.

We have had some very useful contributions this afternoon. I found them very interesting. I take it that Deputy Deenihan will draw up some kind of report on this for us. When we agree a report, we should circulate it to the various Departments that have been mentioned. Unless there is some sort of interdepartmental group put together, we will not go anywhere with this. However, we have made good progress on it today.

The issue of the contribution of the Defence Forces is only a small part of the overall solution. I agree that it is only a very small part of the overall solution but certainly——

It is the key to it.

Yes, it is. If we could identify a niche for this group of experts, probably the largest cohesive group of experts in the country, and a practical role for the Defence Forces to play, it could be the catalyst to get other Departments and agencies involved, including the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána.

I thank Dr. Richardson and Mr. McDonough for their attendance, excellent contributions and responses to the questions asked by members. I also thank members for their interest in this subject.

Under the heading of any other business, I remind members that a meeting of the select committee is scheduled for tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. in this committee room to consider the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Bill 2009.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until noon on Wednesday, 27 January 2010.
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