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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Jul 2023

Closure of Vital Health Services: Discussion

Today we have three different groups and three sets of witnesses to speak to us on issues around the HSE closure of vital health services in counties Galway, Cork and Tipperary. The first set of witnesses will be invited to give their opening statement. This will be followed by questions and comments from members to those witnesses. Then the next set of witnesses will give their opening statement and so forth. Members will have an opportunity at the end to pose final questions to the witnesses or to make comments.

The Loughrea concerned citizens group will go first and then the Owenacurra group and the save St. Brigid's action group. Each group will have about 40 minutes to make opening statements and to take questions after which all three will be brought in together and anybody who wishes can ask further questions.

I welcome our witnesses to today’s meeting. Ms Anna Cronin and Mr. Mattie Quinn are representing the Loughrea concerned citizens group. Their petition is No. P00020/23 - the concerned citizens group calls on the HSE to immediately reopen the existing purpose-built Seven Springs day centre for the use of the people of Loughrea and surrounding catchment area. Ms Joanna Curtis is representing the save the Owenacurra health centre campaign. Her petition is No. P00043/21 - saving the services of the Owenacurra centre, Midleton, County Cork. Ms Susan Mullins is representing the save St. Brigid’s action group. In that regard, Mr. David Dunne’s petition is No. P00048/21 - save St. Brigid’s hospital.

Before we start, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. Witnesses should make their opening statement for around ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members, each of whom will have about five minutes. Members may speak more than once. I call on Ms Anna Cronin and Mr. Mattie Quinn to make their opening statement.

Ms Anna Cronin

I am the secretary of the concerned citizens group in Loughrea and I would like to begin by thanking the Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen for allowing time to listen to our group and providing this opportunity to present to the committee. I am joined by my colleague, our committee chair, Mr. Mattie Quinn, who will bring clarity to this issue through the PowerPoint presentation, a copy of which members have received. Members of the concerned citizens group have also been accommodated by the Oireachtas and are sitting in the Public Gallery. We appreciate their company and encouragement. Indeed, many members of our community have sent us messages of encouragement this morning. I received a message from a group of people in the Carmelite Abbey in Loughrea, who lit candles at 1.30 p.m. praying that what we want so urgently will be realised.

We are also joined here today by Councillors Geraldine Donohue, Declan Kelly and Shane Curley, Dr. Evelyn Parson and Deputy Seán Canney, who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us and advocated at every opportunity.

We are concerned local people and we represent more than 2,500 citizens from the town of Loughrea and its hinterland in County Galway, who object to the closure of the purpose-built daycare centre called Seven Springs. We are apolitical and come from all age groups and all walks of life, and include homemakers, carers, nurses, teachers, farmers and retired people. We ardently believe that the decision not to return the daycare centre to its pre-Covid service adversely affects one of the most vulnerable and deserving sectors in the community, people in the evening of their lives. The Seven Springs daycare centre was a home-from-home for many who experienced loneliness, isolation, lack of mobility and vulnerability in physical and mental respects. We, the community of Loughrea, have united in an effort to right what we believe is a totally wrong decision.

The daycare centre was designed for the optimum benefit of its attendees and greatly enhanced their quality of life. It was a holistic service, assessing need, meeting that need with a care plan, bringing hope, friendship, caring and support to people's lives. It was a vital forum for the elderly to express concerns and domestic problems as, sadly, elder abuse is now on the increase. The benefits were many. It enabled people to remain in their homes thereby lessening the need for residential care. It also gave carers some respite.

As I sat having coffee this morning, it dawned on me that I am a carer. I have a 37-year-old son who has Down’s syndrome. He has always been part of our lives and has never been in residential care. We are facilitated in looking after our dear Patrick by his going to a daycare centre run by the Brothers of Charity from 9.30 a.m. until 3.30 p.m. five days a week. Patrick is an integral part of our lives. He is our gift. Not to have that respite, life might be very different for us and for Patrick.

Mr. Quinn will give details of the Seven Springs, our purpose-built centre and what was offered when our voices were raised at the failure to reopen the centre after Covid-19. He will detail what is now being promised, a space in what was the old workhouse. I am familiar with that area because I was a nurse there. I had the privilege of caring for patients there in the 1970s and 1980s. While I was there, a lady named Mrs. Nora Topping was there. She became familiar with the county home as it was.

She saw patients in an area that once was part of the dreaded workhouse and, through her generosity, she helped create in 1979 a stand-alone day care centre built in co-operation with Dr. Martin Dyar, who was a medical officer, and Sr. Mary Casey, matron of St. Brendan’s county home. Both are gone to their eternal reward now. This stand-alone day centre was demolished 30 years later by the HSE, and replaced in 2011 by St. Brendan’s community nursing unit and the Seven Springs day care centre. It became an integral part of people’s lives and for many, the highlight of their lives. Mrs Topping’s name lives on in the town of Loughrea through the Topping Trust, which is registered with the Charities Regulator. I will conclude my introduction with the wise words of Mahatma Gandhi:"The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members."

Mr. Mattie Quinn

I am a retired person and part of the Loughrea concerned citizens group. Ms Cronin has outlined why we are concerned and what our concerns are. I will go through some slides to illustrate the points she made. Slide 2 outlines the objectives of our concern group. These have been developed since we first got together around this time last year. The first is reopening the centre. It is a state-of-the-art, purpose-built centre. We want it reopened for the benefit of the older people in the community. When it is open, we want to ensure they have the facilities and services they formerly had in the centre which the HSE is trying to close. Members will see the significance of that in a moment. The third thing is to ask the HSE to pause the current plans whereby they want to repurpose an old workhouse building. It was the kitchen of the workhouse built in 1841. To give the committee an idea of how dark it is, there are 15 chandelier-type lights in the ceiling - not posh ones, now. Each has three bulbs. If it takes 45 bulbs to light this building, that will give the committee a fair idea of what we are talking about. We will see that in a moment. Finally, HIQA has certain space requirements for the community nursing unit. We want them to do it through an alternative option instead of using the Seven Springs day centre to resolve their space issues, not ours.

I will move on to the next slide. It is very hard to describe some of these things but visually we can get there a lot better. On the left is a photograph of the Seven Springs day centre. I draw the committee's attention to the corner nearest, where there are six windows, three on one side and three on the other. On the right we see the other building for which they propose somewhere in the region of €1 million to upgrade it. A grey stone area is highlighted in the yellow lines. Those four windows are the windows of the kitchen, which they propose to make a day room out of.

On the next slide there is a photograph of Loughrea lake, which is the view looking out the six windows of the Seven Springs building. Unfortunately, the quality of the picture is not as good as it should be. If someone was looking out the four windows of the other building, what they would see is depicted on the right hand side of the slide. The view of the lake might just be a little white spot between the two prefab-type buildings. It is about a metre. That is the view of the lake in comparison to the one on the left hand side of the slide. This time of the year people would not see anything because the trees have all got leaves. The bottom photograph on the right hand side shows the view out the back of this proposed day room. It nearly speaks for itself. It is fairly obvious, comparing the images on the left and the right, that this is not progress. However, they are hell-bent on doing this thing.

The next slide provides a space comparison. We were informed by the HSE that the repurposed building would be larger than the existing building. We looked up our maps on so on. On the left of the slide is the Seven Springs centre where the day room is 132 sq. m. I want to revise that figure because a wall appeared there since we checked this thing out meaning we have to take 12 sq. m. off leaving 120 sq. m. On the right of the slide is a sketch of what is proposed. We cannot copy the architect's plans for copyright reasons and so on. The day room there is 115 sq. m. We were told the new place was going to be bigger. The assisted shower and the manager's office are also marked on the plan for the proposed building. Above that are two areas of office space of 149 sq. m. I do not know what they need 149 sq. m. of office space for in a day centre. This is in the tender document; this is what people have tendered for.

Next is one of our most important slides, providing a services comparison. The left column lists the services and facilities that were available in the Seven Springs centre: assisted shower, hairdressing, smoking room, clinical room, library, computer room, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, chiropody, an oratory or prayer room, a day and dining room, a storage area and toilet facilities. The right hand column is based on the previous slide we showed the committee, which indicates what is proposed. Did we see any of those facilities on that slide? The only facilities included are the nurse manager's office, the assisted shower room and the day dining room. Those people Ms Cronin spoke about are expected to move into that building. This was supposed to be a bigger building and we were assured, hand on heart, that the same facilities would be available in the new building. It does not look like it. In case those office spaces were supposed to be converted, I presume if someone is tendering for a job, he or she wants to see the whole job. They are not going to say to the contractors to throw in a few rooms there when they are finished. That is what is on offer. The committee can see why we are concerned.

The next slide provides an aerial view of the complex. The two L-shaped buildings are the nursing unit and over on the right is the day centre. In between, there is a little link, which is a glazed corridor between the two buildings. Members might see the word "link" towards the top right corner. That is the drop-off point for people to go to the day centre. They have to walk 4 m or 5 m at most to get in there. Under the new arrangement., the drop-off point would be over where the red block is marked. They would have to walk in and across the front of the building to get it, possible 15 m or so. That might not sound like a lot but for an elderly person or someone in a wheelchair, 15 m is a hell of long way to have to travel, particularly if it is a wet, windy day blowing in.

Part of the facilities on offer was a cooked meal and afternoon tea for the residents. The kitchen for the whole complex is under the red arrow marked on the right.

The food will have to be taken out the side door, up along the road and across the yellow line. I am not sure how that is going to be done, and I wonder what will happen on a really wet day. What will happen if the ground is frosty or if there is snow or whatever? These are the logistics proposed.

I will give a little bit of background on this. In 1979, as Ms Cronin has said, the original day centre was funded by the Topping Trust to the tune of £17,000, as it was then, which I believe is currently the equivalent of about €180,000. The HSE picked up the rest. Members will notice the red line around the community nursing unit but nothing around the day centre. Part of that was because HIQA had no role with regard to day centres, as far as we know, only nursing units. In 2017 or 2019, during re-registration, members will notice that the red line suddenly went right around the centre. The reason I said "2017 or 2019" is because we have two documents, one of which says that it was done in 2017, and another very recent one that says it was done in 2019. We do not know which is correct, because this is an internal thing that goes on but certainly, it is symptomatic of some of the things that go on in the HSE.

In 2019-20, the regulations of the Health Act 2007 and the national standards for residential care settings for older people in Ireland, which came into effect on 1 July 2016, required more space in the community nursing unit. While there might be a statutory reason as to why so many square metres are required per person, the point is that the unit has been working at about 75% capacity for months. There are 25 empty beds in the place on average. Of the 75% of beds that are occupied, anything from one third to a half of those never leave their rooms, for physical and maybe psychological reasons. I am not sure where the necessity for space is, if that number of people are not even circulating. I know it is a statutory thing but it is where bureaucracy needs to match practical common sense.

To solve this problem in 2020, four options were agreed with HIQA and the HSE, including an option to build an extension. In October 2021 and in 2022, Covid-19 pandemic restrictions were being lifted but there was no sign of anything happening. People were wondering when the day centre was going to open. As Covid-19 was now over, they wondered why it was not opening. Nobody knew about the redesignation. The HSE kept answering, "Well, it is going to open in two weeks", or "it will be another three weeks", or "it will be two months", and so on. Then suddenly, the bombshell dropped, that it was not going to open at all. This left the older people devastated. They were looking forward to this so much after the Covid-19 lockdown, and that they were going to get an opportunity to meet again and do what they were doing. Instead, they found that this thing was closed down, even though they were misled and given false expectations for all of that time. I think it is absolutely cruel and callous to behave like this.

In 2022, the HSE came up with the idea that it would open Seven Springs one day per week. It claimed that it got a derogation from HIQA. What puzzled a lot of people is that if it can work on one day per week, on Wednesday, how come there are not space, crowding or dining issues but it cannot open Monday, Tuesday or Thursday and there is no opening at all on a Friday. It is misleading because the HSE is saying that it is open on one day per week. It is open in the sense that it is half open, because the number of people allowed in is 14. Normally there would be between 26 and 28 there. The plan the HSE came up with was to pay for a conference room in a local hotel to host the attendees. By the way, we asked how much this cost, and they could not tell us due to commercial sensitivity. It is something that is very popular around these rooms at the moment. I believe we have heard that in another context.

I want to return, for a moment, to the four options. One of these options was to build an extension. The HSE went away to look at this after the agreement with HIQA, and then it turned down the four options itself. It was not going to use them at all. The reason given for the extension not going ahead was that the ground was not topographically suitable. We asked for that report. We wanted to see why it was not suitable. We were looking from February until about a month ago to get a response. This report was everywhere. It was with the Minister, with HSE estates and you name it. Eventually, we got it; a report that was done in 2008. Remember, this was supposed to be done in February 2023. We got the one that was done in 2008. While it still might be relevant in certain situations, it is not the one the HSE said it was going to do. We also got a sketch from some architects under freedom of information legislation. There was a sketch of some kind of a veranda in front of the nursing unit, but the document said that there was no other document in the building relevant to that location. Here we were being told, for all this time, that this document was here, there and everywhere, and it never existed. It was never done. This is another example of the kind of way we were being dealt with. It is extraordinary and that is why we are so determined. In 2003-----

Twenty minutes have gone by and I have to let people in. We appreciate everything Mr. Quinn has said. We have heard it before with all the different groups. As I said to Mr. Quinn outside, every one of the reports we have seen are nearly cut-and-paste. Some of the reports that we got from the HSE that are redacted will come up later. It is a scandal that we cannot get an indication as to when decisions were made by the HSE, HIQA or whoever, even to show us when decisions were made. We were told at one stage that it was opinions by officials in the HSE that closed some places.

I will ask one question, and I will let other members in then. The HSE said there was a review to be done on the decision to close Seven Springs. The witnesses met HSE officials on 8 May. Did they elaborate on what they meant by a review? The correspondence that we here in the committee received on 29 June does not reference anything about a review.

Mr. Mattie Quinn

I think the reply on 29 June was a carbon copy of a reply issued to Councillor Evelyn Parsons, when she queried the minutes of the regional health forum west. The answer had nothing at all to do with her query. The document which the Chair is talking about, which the committee got, is identical to the one she received. There was the 29 June one, and there is also the fact that other than the date on the end of it, it is an identical document. Part of it was quoted verbatim in the local paper, and it was attributed as a quote to the new chief officer, even though this thing appeared in the middle of June. He only took office recently.

Ms Anna Cronin

We were very heartened when we read the Connacht Tribune last week because the first few columns said that the HSE was going to review it. Our hearts lifted, and we said that this sounds very hopeful, that the HSE is actually listening to us and is reconsidering its situation. There was column after column and then we came to the final paragraph in the Connacht Tribune, which directly contradicted all that had been previously said. It said that the HSE was now going ahead to develop the old workhouse. It was a direct contradiction that had come from the HSE, and which was printed in the Connacht Tribune. It actually did not make sense.

I appreciate that and the witnesses will see, as we go through the day with the other petitions as well, that they have faced the same thing.

The only difference between the petitioners from Loughrea and others is that they are being taken out of a purpose-built building and put into an old building, whereas nearly everywhere else we are being told all these old buildings cannot be done up or it is a waste of money to do them up.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Their presentation was powerful. It is good the committee facilitated them to present their case as it is a powerful case. I commend everyone on travelling and doing so. This kind of thing takes a huge amount of work to put together. It takes a lot of effort by the whole community to present to the Oireachtas. It is not an easy task so I commend them. It has become such a hot topic because of the community and the grassroots nature of the campaign. Those who are not from Galway - unfortunately for Deputy Browne, he is not from Galway, God help him; Tipp might do - should realise how many signatures the 2,500 signatures is for the size of a place like Loughrea. My colleague Louis O'Hara has contacted me often about this issue and asked me and Deputy Cullinane to raise questions and that kind of thing. He is a strong supporter of the campaign and made us aware of it. The photos were powerful to show us the tranquility and beautiful view of the lake in comparison. It is a stark contrast.

I will ask two questions. I am conscious we are tight on time so I will ask them together, because I want to give the witnesses a voice. First, I want to hear what they believe the barriers are and why there is no will? Second, being involved in this kind of campaign is stressful for everyone involved. How is that stress impacting on the lives of family members and people who want to avail of the facilities?

Ms Anna Cronin

The stressful aspect must be huge. I am involved with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. It is a visitation conference. We meet people who live alone in isolated areas. I have spoken to individuals who described to me how much they loved the day care centre, the social interaction and the fun. One individual was taught how to use a computer and was then able to communicate with his family who were on the other side of the world. Then there are the carers, who do not get the space, rest and respite they desperately need. The reality is that the numbers were in the 20s in the past and it was six days a week. We are now down to three days in the hotel - we have a splendid hotel in Loughrea but it is not a day care centre - and one day in the day care centre. Unfortunately, all the facilities that were available to the attendees, such as the chiropodist and the hairdresser, are no longer available. When people were referred by the public health nurse to the day care centre, their needs were assessed and there was communication with the families. It was a wonderful structure and it has been dismantled. Covid-19 came and, unfortunately, the service has not been - what shall I say? - resurrected. It has not been returned. We are perplexed. We do not understand. We know the day care centre was taken over by administrative staff in Saint Brendan's Community Nursing Unit. It was used for coffee breaks because space was needed. That is as it was. I noted that the HSE stated it used the day care centre during the Covid-19 pandemic for Christmas parties because it had the space. As everyone will be aware, that was absolutely forbidden. There were no parties. There was no interaction. People died without having even one person beside them. That was forbidden. The HSE is making statements that do not add up.

Mr. Mattie Quinn

On what is driving this, there seems to be total intransigence. The HSE is not listening, and if more than 2,500 people signed something, and it is in writing, not online, that means something. The opposition to this is tremendous. The older people who are users of the service and their families are totally opposed to it. The community, as evidenced by all those signatures, and many of the retired staff, including my wife, Anna, who worked in the area we looked at, think it is totally wrong. It is a dark, dull, dreary building. A number of our public representatives, as Anna mentioned earlier, who have been so supportive to us, support the restoration of the day centre as it was. We do not know what is driving it. We cannot dig down. There is something but we cannot find out what it is.

I assure the witnesses that when Ms Mullins from Carrick-on-Suir gets to speak, she will tell the committee there are 11,000 signatures from that area and the HSE is not listening there either. While we have three groups here today, we know of two more that have petitions on the way regarding Clifden District Hospital, and in my town, Cashel, a unit is supposed to go up in Saint Patrick's Hospital and it is being dragged out. The Covid-19 pandemic was used across the board in all instances to close places down. To be fair, each community accepted it because of the times, but the underhand way the HSE has come back and closed places down is the biggest problem.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating me. I am not a member of the committee. I thank the members for their co-operation.

I welcome the people from Loughrea who are here today. I commend Mr. Quinn, Ms Cronin and Mr. O'Looney who did the backup. What has been presented here is a wrong that needs to be put right. Someone asked a question about attitude. The attitude is to try to bury this, but it will not be buried. The spin the HSE has put on this is to blame HIQA and Covid-19 for decisions it made itself. It made these decisions in 2017 or earlier or at least in 2019 and Covid-19 was not even on anyone's agenda. The way it has been done has been detrimental to the wellbeing of older people in Loughrea and to their families. People are genuinely upset. People who never protested before have been out walking on the streets.

Four councillors are here today, namely, Councillor Geraldine Donohue who has been spearheading the campaign, Councillor Declan Kelly, Councillor Shane Curley and importantly, Dr. Evelyn Parsons who is a councillor in Ballinasloe and sits on the health forum. She has given me a statement because a meeting of the regional health forum was held recently on 28 June. Decisions were made and communicated on that date by the newly appointed chief officer, John Fitzmaurice. He confirmed verbally that it was decided to pause the review of the plans being discussed for the Seven Springs day centre and to initiate a thorough re-evaluation. In line with this, he stated a recent topographical report had been conducted which holds significant relevance for the ongoing review process. Furthermore, - I am reading from Dr. Parsons' statement:

I am pleased to say he agreed to the HSE co-ordinating a site visit. A date has been put forward in September for elected representatives and stakeholders. This visit will provide an opportunity to gain first-hand insights and perspectives on the Seven Springs Day Centre.

Councillor Parsons is also pleased to share that a motion advocating for the reinstatement of the Seven Springs day centre in its original location put forward by the chair of the regional health forum and seconded by Councillor Parsons was agreed unanimously.

That flies in the face of the review committee members will have received dated 29 June, which says nothing about that review. The HSE probably erred in the communication of what happened at the meeting. When this letter was written, it had not been sent to the relevant people. I dutifully ask the committee to ignore what I would call the HSE's response - they call it a briefing note - because it does not bear any resemblance to what has actually been happening.

I will say one last thing. I will not hold up the meeting much longer. I am very disappointed that the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, has refused to visit the site. I am not being political but I believe she should visit. I am disappointed from the point of view that she is standing by the HSE without actually interrogating the whole process herself. Coming from a quantity surveying point of view, if you have €1 million that you can spend on something, everybody would accept that it should be spent on something that would be of use to people and that would enhance their lives and their independent living into the future. That money was confirmed by the Minister of State herself. She said it is being donated by a trust. The Topping Trust is supposed to donate money. I put on record that I have been in contact with the Topping Trust. If it is going to support this, I ask it to reflect wholeheartedly on doing so before putting a single euro into it. The fight is not over. I want that message to go out loud and clear. This fight is not over because, when something is wrong, it has to be put right. I am glad to say we have a cross-party team of elected representatives who are working to put this is right. That is what we intend to do. I thank the Chair for his courtesy and his willingness to allow me to say those few words.

I thank the witnesses for coming here today. We spoke before they came down. It is a pretty daunting prospect to come into this place and face the music. Their presentations were fantastic and I thank them both for that. I am going to go through a few things here. Whichever of the witnesses thinks themselves best suited to pick up on each might do so.

The first matter impacts Ms Cronin directly. She mentioned that her son is in a Brothers of Charity day care centre five days a week. I do not want to put her on the spot but what would she do if the Brothers of Charity facility was not available to her and her son had to stay at home with her every day? Not unlike myself, she is advancing in years. Surely, if she had to look after a 37-year-old 24 hours a day, she would seek permanent confinement in some centre or other for him.

Ms Anna Cronin

I am afraid we very likely would. I have eight children and Patrick is actually the centre of our lives. Nevertheless, the other seven must go out and earn a living. We are in the evening of our lives and so it stands to reason that, without that day care centre, we would have to make arrangements that would make us very unhappy and which would certainly make Patrick very unhappy. He is part and parcel of our lives and would find it almost impossible were we not to have that day care service. It gives us freedom and has made it possible for us to have our Patrick with us all the time for the 37 years he has lived.

Ms Cronin has made her point really well. When we are talking about day care centres, particularly for elderly people, nowadays you very frequently find couples who are 40 or 50 years married when one becomes frail and needs respite. The person looking after him or her also needs some time to themselves and this is where day care centres come into their own. I am sure we will hear about the impact on the families making use of the three units we are talking about today. Not being able to get away from somebody you are caring for is detrimental to both parties. It is detrimental to the individual and to the carer looking after him or her. We do not look after our carers.

I have a couple of questions to throw out and then the witnesses can answer them. The first relates to the HIQA element. Deputy Canney has made a point today that county councillors have made to me many times. We are told decisions are made by HIQA. We saw this in one of the hospitals we are going to talk about a little bit later on. Who asked HIQA? What brief was it given? Did it walk in on its own and decide to shut the place down? How did that come about? When we look at Tipperary in a little while, we will see how you can find that information out. You find it out in great big blacked-out pieces of rubbish like the document I am holding. Has anybody come and explained that?

On my other question, I hate to say this to Mr. Quinn but he showed us some photographs. Deputy Canney said the centre is getting €1 million. That is great so what is Mr. Quinn's beef? Why does he not just take the €1 million and do up the place that is there? Is it not fine? Lots of communities around the country would love €1 million. I have to play devil's advocate here. I do not know what his beef is. The centre is getting €1 million. The staff need their coffee space over where the day care centre was. It really comes down to that. Where is the Topping Trust in all of this? I would like to know that. I will leave it at that because we will have more later on.

Yes, we will have more later. I just have to be fair to everyone. Perhaps Mr. Quinn could just answer that question.

Mr. Mattie Quinn

I will take the questions in reverse order. The Topping Trust is a trust fund set up by a lady called Mrs. Nora Topping. She donated money because she wanted to enhance the quality of life of older people in the nursing home and in the community. She wanted to get people out of this dark, dreary and dull building and into a bright, modern, well-lit and well-facilitated place. That was her aim. As the Chairman has said, most people are trying to get out of this type of thing but, in this case, they are being put into such a unit.

On the second question, on how HIQA got involved, HIQA does inspections from time to time and had done a number of inspections at this site. It seems that in one of those inspections, it came up that it wanted this space done. What is unusual about this is that the regulation regarding the 4 sq. m per person was initiated on 1 July 2016 but it was not until 2019 that HIQA wanted to do anything about it. The second thing is that, as Deputy Canney has said, the decision to close the facility was made before Covid had even been heard of. The question was what was to be done with the people in it and how could they be got out. Lo and behold, Covid worked wonders. It solved all of the problems, just as it did in St. Brigid's. However, a lot of this is a mystery.

I will not detain the witness for long but the people of Roscommon will always support anybody from Galway, except when the football team is involved. In that case, we will not, but otherwise we will support them.

The smaller ball is better down in Tipperary.

We will not talk about the Tipperary performance this year.

Never mind that big ball.

I thank Ms Cronin and Mr. Quinn very much. They have made their case wonderfully and beautifully while being in no way aggressive about it. We can see how much this means to them and their friends in that particular area. I wish Ms Cronin well with her son. She is obviously an amazing person. I will not go back over questions that have already been asked but I acknowledge the role of Councillors Curley, Parsons, Kelly and Sheridan. They really are solid people who will support the witnesses the whole way.

I am involved with a day care centre in my own town of Strokestown, County Roscommon. There are five of us who run it. What we have done down through the years is we have entered into an agreement with a local establishment and taken a building. It is actually outside of the town, in the country. The reason I mention this is that there is a lake right beside the building where there is quite a lot of holiday activity. It means a great deal to the people who use it. My own mother uses the place two or three times a week. It opens six days a week. From being involved in that committee and having a family member who uses the centre, I can very much understand how important these centres are.

This story is incredible. I have been talking to Deputy Canney and others about the facilities that are there and how good they are, listening to the case being made by councillors, reading up about it and that type of thing. It is just incredible that anybody would try to close the building down and move the facility into a hotel. That is not the right setting for it. We have a very good relationship with the HSE in our area. It gives us a lot of support. We run the centre but it checks it out and gives us the money to run it.

However, I cannot understand, after everything people have gone through with Covid and other challenges, why the HSE would not reopen that centre. I will fully support the people there, their elected representatives, Deputy Canney, the witnesses and everyone else in the area. I will support the other regions as well. This has to be changed. I will be talking to John Fitzmaurice of the HSE in the coming days about another matter. He has said the HSE will look at why it was being paused. I will make the case strongly for the witnesses. I thank them for coming here and making their case so well. We have to look after these people. They have done their service for the country. I am addressing the ladies as well. I hope they are saying good things about me. They have served their country well and deserve a little bit of space and these kinds of centres, which mean so much to them.

Mr. Mattie Quinn

Senator Craughwell asked what we would do with the €1 million. There are six different versions of how this was to be financed. Deputy Canney got two letters on one day from the same person. One said it would be funded in total, while the other said it would be partially funded. This can be summed up by a comment made by Deputy Connolly, who is dealing with an issue in Carraroe to do with the day centre. She said she was getting an unrealistic narrative, which is a nice way of saying something else. One person in the HSE made a statement that we have things in Loughrea that are not in other day centres, so why should we have them?

According to some of the responses the committee received, offers of €1 million have been made but we cannot see the information behind the redactions. I thank the witnesses. I will bring them back in at the end. I invite Ms Curtis to make her opening statement.

Ms Joanna Curtis

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to describe the loss of the Owenacurra Centre and its far-reaching impact on people in east Cork with severe and enduring mental health needs.

The Owenacurra Centre, Midleton, was established in 1988 to allow residents of the old institution of Our Lady’s Hospital, Cork, which was one of the county asylums, to live in their community. It is ideally located in the town, close to shops, the farmers’ market, the library and a range of amenities and services.

In the letters pages of the Irish Examiner in 2021, Monica Doyle, a former clinical nurse manager of the centre, recalled the momentous transition of those first residents from Our Lady’s Hospital and the new lives they found in Midleton. Some went on to require 24-hour staffed residential placement but greatly increased their levels of purpose, meaning and connection within that framework of support. Others, Ms Doyle noted, discovered the joys of independent living with the help of the local mental health team. This was a time, she wrote, when the aim of the Southern Health Board was “to promote integration and prevent institutionalisation”.

There were 20 residents when the bombshell news came in June 2021 that the service was to close. There are now just six remaining. Three of those six will be accommodated in a house the HSE recently purchased in Midleton. This is a fraction of the service provision needed in east Cork, and even that would not have come without the sustained pressure of the local campaign to save the service. The closure announcement was met with shock and dismay by residents, family members, local mental health clinicians and the whole community. The centre has been described by one family member of a resident as life-saving for her relative. It has been greatly valued in east Cork over the past 35 years.

The closure rationale was based on a contention by the HSE that the premises were not fit for purpose; in particular, that some of the centre's single bedrooms were of insufficient size. The HSE also repeatedly made reference to concerns raised by the Mental Health Commission in its briefings on the closure. Neither rationale has stood up to scrutiny. Some residents were offered shared dorms in long-stay wards outside east Cork, which would involve a much greater restriction on dignity and privacy than a small single room in Owenacurra. Also, the Mental Health Commission compliance rating for Owenacurra has been impressively high in recent years and stood at 90% in the latest inspection report in 2022, while the commission has repeatedly and severely criticised some of the alternative facilities offered to residents. Its rating for St. Stephen’s Hospital, Glanmire, was 70% and for St. Catherine’s Ward in St. Finbarr’s Hospital, Cork, it was 74%.

In March 2022, following a site visit to the centre and to St. Stephen’s Hospital, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health wrote to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, calling on her to reverse the closure. The committee stated that “evidence presented by the HSE [for][...] the closure has been unconvincing” and expressed concerns about the ad hoc nature of the decision-making in relation to capital infrastructure of mental health facilities. The committee repeated the call to reverse the closure in later letters to the Minister of State, appealing to her to visit us in Midleton, to Mr. Paul Reid, then of the HSE, and, later still, to the HSE board. In one such letter from May 2022, the committee stated "the loss of the Owenacurra Centre, including its town centre location, would involve far-reaching adverse consequences for one of the most vulnerable groups of people attending the east Cork mental health services and would constitute a regression in their care and rehabilitation”.

The HSE’s original plan, as discovered through a freedom of information, FOI, request, was to move many of the residents to St. Stephen’s Hospital, Glanmire, an institutional and isolated setting, as Our Lady’s Hospital was. It is 45 km from Youghal, which is at the eastern side of our east Cork catchment area.

In December 2021, the HSE said repeatedly in a health committee meeting that it would not be replacing the 24-hour staffed residential placements in east Cork. Under sustained pressure from the campaign, the HSE announced in May 2022 it would construct a new ten-bed service in Midleton to replace the Owenacurra Centre. While this appeared a promising development, 14 months later no site has been identified for this building, no capital funding has been secured and no development team appointed.

In recent weeks, local management have given very optimistic timelines for this project in responses to parliamentary questions from Deputy Hourigan, claiming the HSE will begin building the service in the first quarter of 2024 and that construction would be complete in the first quarter of 2025. We are concerned this is creating false expectations, given that the usual minimum completion time for a new build project of this scale is at least four to five years. Dismantling the Owenacurra Centre in the meantime and replacing 20 single-room placements with a possible new house containing only three bedrooms will not remotely meet the needs of this vulnerable client group in east Cork, who require continuity of care and community integration, which is the most important part of this centre being in the centre of our town. Just as the construction of premises is a lengthy and complicated process, so too is the recreation of a service which would involve recruitment or redeployment of staff.

The client group served by the centre is broadly referred to as experiencing severe and enduring mental illness. People with this level of difficulty typically struggle with the most debilitating levels of distress of any client group attending our mental health services, which can take the form of entrenched depressive or psychotic conditions. Some people with severe and enduring illness can live independently or with family support. Others will require intensive multidisciplinary therapies, residential placement and sometimes life-long residential placement. They can have great difficulty pursuing goals or sustaining involvement in training or employment. They are prone to being destabilised by transitions such as changes in accommodation or the ending of therapeutic relationships.

Those who require long-term or respite placement who do not have a community-based residence available to them typically experience one or a combination of the following outcomes, which outcomes have been pointed out by the Mental Health Commission itself. Some people with severe needs live with ageing parents who are unable to cope. Some, according to Dr. Susan Finnerty, chief inspector of the commission, are "trapped" in psychiatric wards indefinitely and are detached from their communities, as outlined in the commission's paper Rehabilitation and Recovery – Mental Health Services in Ireland 2018/2019. Others end up in very precarious situations in the community, at risk of homelessness, addiction and suicide. We have one of the highest rates of suicide in the country, as I am sure members know. Those at risk can be caught in a cycle of acute psychiatric ward admissions. When people with this level of need move to services such as the Owenacurra Centre, it can take many months or even years of painstaking therapeutic work, usually with several clinicians, to achieve stabilisation, develop good quality of life and integrate into the local community.

In the absence of interim provision in east Cork while a new service is being constructed, the closure of the centre will result in people from east Cork with the highest level of mental health need being placed in St. Stephen's and St. Finbarr's hospitals.

Our campaign acknowledges the positive and open engagement in recent weeks of HSE CEO Bernard Gloster with our representatives. Before Mr. Fitzgerald retired, he had agreed to meet me as well. We are very grateful to Mr. Gloster but ask him to commission an independent investigation into the standards of some of the alternative placements offered to the residents. Residents moved outside east Cork on the basis that they deserved a better-quality service should be offered the opportunity to return to Midleton and their families. The HSE has an obligation to ensure continuity of care for people who require respite or rehabilitation placement in east Cork. That requires local interim service provision while new premises are being constructed or acquired over the protracted period that this will take. We ask Mr. Gloster to commit to the provision of services across Cork for people with severe and enduring mental health difficulties in accordance with A Vision for Change and the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities.

The north Cork HSE catchment provides a model of the service provision that should be replicated in each area with a population of 100,000. According to A Vision for Change, this includes a specialist, multidisciplinary rehabilitation mental health team and three community residences, each with ten placements for the 100,000. This is the service provision that is required for the combined HSE catchments of Midleton–Youghal and Cobh–Glenville. In north Cork, which has the same population as the two east Cork mental health team areas combined, there are three community residences, one in each of the towns of Mallow, Fermoy and Kanturk, and each with 14 placements with single-room, en suite facilities. There are 42 in total. Ours are going to be removed for the whole of east Cork. We will not have any residential placements in any of our communities of 100,000.

The HSE plans to invest heavily in a 50-bed continuing-care rehabilitation service in St. Stephen's hospital, Glanmire, that would replace long-stay wards on campus. The funding should be redirected to community residences for the client group in question in major towns such as Cobh and Youghal and our town, Midleton. St. Stephen's is an isolated hospital campus disconnected from any urban centre and is not a suitable location for long-term living.

Our Lady's Psychiatric Hospital is the typical asylum or psychiatric hospital that we talked about. Having opened in 1882, it finally closed in 1992, thank goodness. However, St. Stephen's is the replacement psychiatric hospital. It was built as a tuberculosis hospital in 1954 and it is now being suggested that residents be transferred there. Our centre is right in the heart of our town. As a society, we have a responsibility to look after those who were born with or developed certain mental challenges. We must keep them in our community and not isolate them, or, as Dr. Finnerty said, send those regarded as not fit for purpose in society to an isolation area.

St. Stephen's was previously a TB hospital. It is going to be a combined site for the general hospitals – Cork University Hospital and Mercy University Hospital. They are going to rebuild some of their wards there. Our Lady's Psychiatric Hospital was closed only in 1992. Actually, it is rather poor. The Owenacurra Centre is right in the heart of the town, beside our farmers' market, the banks and the library.

I thank Ms Curtis. I am anxious about the time, so I ask each member to stick to five minutes.

I will be as fast as I can. As a Corkman, I speak a lot faster than the rest.

Too fast at times.

I thank Ms Curtis for attending.

This has been going on for a long time. What we have dealt with is only part of the file on Owenacurra. There are also parliamentary questions and you name it, not to mention the petititons.

Ms Curtis is right. She mentioned suicides. Between 2000 and 2002, there were 69 suicides in east Cork. There were women aged 63, 54 and 33, and the rest were all male. That indicates the need. There was a 22-bed system, with 20 full-time beds and the two short-term-stay beds. It is a question of the associated services. Ms Curtis mentioned that the Owenacurra Centre is bang in the centre of the town. There is a doctor across the road, a barracks on one side and a dentist on another side. The community hospital is nearby and there is access to the market. It is 50 yards to the main street. Despite this, the HSE wants the location to be St. Stephen's, the old lunatic asylum. It is in the middle of nowhere in a green field and has dormitory-style accommodation.

We have had arguments and heated debates with the HSE on this time and again. The building we are talking about is more compliant than any of the others that patients are being put into. What is happening is like taking people from a hotel and putting them into a tent. I have raised this with so many committees. I thank the Committee of Public Accounts, the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health, this committee and the Joint Committee on Health. I have written to the European Ombudsman twice about this matter but, unfortunately, it is not under its remit. I raised it with the European Ombudsman here some weeks ago. I am like a child waiting for a birthday card in that I know it is coming in the post but I do not know how much money is in it. I have written to the European Court of Human Rights about this also but it normally takes six to seven months even to get a response.

Ms Curtis and others will be very familiar with our toing and froing. I am referring to the last HSE board for Cork and Kerry. I raised the concerns with its representatives here at a committee meeting. It was not to score points as we are representing people, including families, here. What really struck me was that there was very little communication with family members and residents. The latter are not patients but residents because they have been in the accommodation for so long and have been so happy there. There was to be consultation. The most worrying thing about it was that when I raised the word "coercion" with the HSE representatives, who were sitting opposite me, they would not accept the word.

Let me quote the minutes of one of the most recent meetings, that of 8 February 2023. That was two years on and with a board. I highlighted the document in my favourite colour, pink.

It states:

The Committee raised concerns regarding placements to St Stephen’s Hospital, Glanmire and St Catherine’s Ward in St Finbarr’s Hospital Cork as these centres had received lower Mental Health Commission inspection compliance ratings than the Owenacurra Centre.

This is two years on, after meeting them. We are saying that we hate to say we told you so but we told you so. It continues:

Concerns were expressed that these environments are congregated settings that are campus based, isolated, away from the community in contravention of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, [we should not even be here talking about this now] Government policy and HSE policy as set out in Time to Move on from Congregated Settings - A Strategy for Community Inclusion.

They have actually worked against it. I had the honour to sit on the Committee on the Future of Healthcare which produced the Sláintecare report. You might as well wipe your backside with it because they have done the complete opposite.

Here is another interesting part from the minutes:

Some members of the Committee expressed dissatisfaction with the need to transfer the residents away from the Midleton area contrary to their expressed wishes.

It seems to me that if it is "contrary to their expressed wishes", that is coercion. They did not want to go and they moved them.

We will hear again from the St. Brigid's campaign in Tipperary. I read a lot and I can guarantee - I have said it here on record previously - we will have a similar case in Portlaoise as well. If one goes back to the first set of witnesses here, the HSE blamed the Mental Health Commission. The Mental Health Commission is the snagger who comes in to finalise a building and he tells you what is wrong with it, or the NCT inspector who tells you want is wrong with it. You fix it, it works and it passes the test. All the HIQA reports I have read so far on similar places to this state that the building is not fit for purpose. It is not fit for purpose because the proprietor did not follow the rules of the ganger man or the NCT inspector but blamed everybody else. To whose detriment is it? It is to that of the people in the community.

On the biggest loss in this, Ms Curtis is correct that there should be 30 or 33 beds per 900,000 of population or something like that. It should be a pilot project. We are losing a fully integrated working system because of the incompetence of management within the HSE. We have gone through reams and reams of things, such as boilers and alarms, that were supposed to be fixed and they were totally ignored. I am glad to be in here with the rest of the members because we will be back in here again after the recess.

I am well aware there is a new board there and I welcome it because it is engaging. I hope they will not be led astray between now and the time we get them back in in September.

I want to return to the associated services, especially the respite. They closed that with a 26-person waiting list for short-term respite. Short-term respite is for bloods, chiropody and dentistry. It also gives respite to the families. That is gone. We also have local community mental health services there. I think that has gone into the atmosphere with the Japanese balloon that they blew up or something, because we have seen nothing of it.

My frustration here is that the last time I wrote it was to the European Ombudsman. They told me to go back to HIQA, HIQA told me to go back to the HSE and the HSE told me to go back to the Mental Health Commission. I went back to the Minister and I ask the Minister where am I going and the Minister could not tell me. That is a frustrating story when families are at risk. This is why I want to get it on the record.

The fact is we need people like all the witnesses who are in this room today. They should not be afraid. They should not take intimidation. If they are not 100% sure, they should question it. If they do not get a response, they should come to us, we will question it and they can see how difficult it is for us.

Somebody has to take responsibility. The problem is we do not have oversight within the HSE as an entity and it can do what it likes. Sorry, have I run out of time?

I will be brief. The Cathaoirleach can see how angry I am.

The Deputy talks fast and he talks a lot. Go on, keep going.

The point I am making is that Ms Curtis is correct. Somebody has to take responsibility for messing up - I am being polite with the phrase "messing up" - and reverse these decisions, and if something is broken, fix it, and if one cannot fix it, replace it. That is only the structure. One should not remove vital services from the communities because that is where the heartbeat of the community is. When it is community-led, it is trusted and supported. Public money goes into those places and they did not give a damn.

Quickly, before others contribute, I am looking through it. I refer to the insignificant size for rooms. We have seen this with other areas. They are constructing a new ten-bed unit. We have been promised a 60-bed in Cashel. They are identifying sites. We know two of the sites they are talking about. Nothing will ever be built there.

What is worrying is that the Joint Committee on Health visited Owenacurra and recommended that the decision be overturned but nothing is happening or the recommendation is being ignored.

Unfortunately, the public watching this cannot see the Visitors Gallery is full. These are people who travelled hundreds of miles to be here today to hear the petition being heard. The story Ms Curtis tells about Cork is typical of the other two that are here today.

We have public representatives here at local authority level. Nobody engages with them anymore. Decisions are taken without engagement at local level. If one wants to change something - we heard from Ms Curtis about a plan to build a new centre - nothing should be done until the plan is actioned. Once the site has been purchased and construction has started, one can have a phased transfer from one to the other. This nonsense of making promises that are never fulfilled is designed to shut you up.

I propose that we bring in the HSE and HIQA and get to the bottom of exactly what is going on here, and that we also ask for a moratorium on any further decisions and allow the day care centre in Loughrea and allow the situation in Cork to remain as they are until we get definitive answers on what rationale was used, who made the decisions and why the decisions were made. Where promises were made about new centres, etc., I want to see evidence of the construction, the plan, the site and everything. This is nonsense.

These people's local communities are being devastated. I wonder if the people who are making these decisions ever think they will get old or at some stage need care for mental health for themselves or one of their family.

Let us do that, if we can, as soon as possible.

I second that proposal.

To be clear, we have it in our work programme to bring in the HSE. We wanted to meet all the groups first and get their story.

In September, it is our intention to bring in the HSE, to sit the officials in front of us and start asking these questions.

You did a good job the last time you had them in, Chair.

We still have not got too many answers off them. We want to try to make sure we get those answers.

Before I let in anybody else, the Loughrea group is anxious to get away in the next 20 minutes or so. I ask the contributors to finish with Owenacurra as quick as we can. If anyone wants to ask questions on Loughrea, I will bring back in Owenacurra and St. Brigid's after the Loughrea group goes. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

It is the same pattern all over the country - a reckless, careless, unanswerable cabal that does not care about anybody. The waste, subterfuge and deceit is disgusting. We have seen it in RTÉ in the past number of weeks but it is worse in the HSE. The wages and the management are shocking. I called it out the last day I was here about Carrick-on-Suir. I support the groups. It is a battle. I came in to join their battle. Their presentation was very professional. It is callous.

What we all must realise is that behind all the figures from Loughrea, Owenacurra and St. Brigid's, and we can rattle off Clifden, St. Brigid's in Portlaoise and St. Patrick's in Cashel, there are individuals and families. Sadly, that seems to be what the HSE, HIQA and those in power seem to forget. As we said, I think it was to St. Brigid's, when we had the HSE in, they told us it was an opinion. That is why they finished up closing St. Brigid's. No individual, including a Minister, should have the power, because he or she sits at a meeting and has an opinion, to close down any setting that we all have heard stories of again today without consulting the local community and the families that are in these situations. As Senator Craughwell said, every one of us and every one of them will get old, whether they like it or not.

I would hate to think that in a couple of years if we are all in those situations, there would be someone sitting around the round table who has an opinion on a Tuesday night that a place will be closed down. I might have an opinion on Dublin Airport outside on the runway; that does not mean I can fly a plane. I question why many of these people who make these decisions are in those positions in the first place. A lot of it is who they know. They just do not care about the individual or about families. Do members want to ask any more questions of the Loughrea concerned citizens group?

I apologise for not being in the committee room but I was watching the meeting and there was some detail covered. That is the way it is. It is not about giving the witnesses a pat on the back. It is about exposing the point that they knew more about what was going on. They did not have fairy-tale ideas. They had solutions and nobody listened to them. That is the reason I am very proud of being part of the Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen. This is the lastchance.com committee for anybody outside of here, to raise concerns. No matter what concern it is, everybody has a right to be listened to. Well done to them.

Listening to Ms Curtis there, I thought I was listening to a story about Loughrea again. I know St. Brigid's also is the same way. We had huge media attention in the last couple of weeks about RTÉ. That was about a few pounds; this is about people. This is about older people and people who need help and support. We should be a bit more vocal within the Oireachtas in saying that these committees are so important. They give people a chance to present as the witnesses have done today and as Ms Mullins is doing. The thing is we have to get the people who can make decisions to listen. I welcome the fact that the HSE will be brought in and I am looking forward to that.

I agree with the Deputy about the media. The proceedings of this meeting are going out nationally. I hope the media takes up cases like the three in front of us and others that are out there which we know are coming. The mantra from the HSE and similar organisations is that there is an older population coming down the road and they talk about all the facilities we will need for that generation. However, at the same time, with the stroke of a pen, it is closing down the very centres we actually need. I put the challenge out there to the media that instead of ignoring these issues, it should make it an issue with Government and with the Ministers.

I wonder whether there age discrimination going on here. Leaving aside Ms Curtis's issue, we are talking about respite care and day centres in particular. It is old people generally who use them and it is young people who are making decisions about the future of these organisations. The whole thing is ageist.

On behalf of the committee, we wish the Loughrea concerned citizens group all the best. As the witnesses can see from all the contributors today, we are behind their fight. We have dealt with it before. We will get the HSE back in again. We want answers because these situations are affecting every one of our communities from Galway to Cork. As I said, there are way more coming. Every month that the committee sits, there is another place being closed down. We wish the witnesses the best. We hope to have them back in front of the committee again in the future with better news or with answers from the HSE at least. I wish the Loughrea concerned citizens group the best of luck. We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to let the people from Loughrea depart the committee room.

Sitting suspended at 3.04 p.m. and resumed at 3.18 p.m.

We apologise to the Friends of Owenacurra group. They have the floor if members wish to ask questions.

Is Ms Mullins going to make a presentation?

We will finish with Owenacurra first. Does the Senator have any more questions for them?

No, I am finished with Ms Curtis at this stage.

I thank Ms Curtis for giving her presentation. I ask her to hang on there. At the end of the presentation by St. Brigid's action group, we will open up to members again who may wish to ask either group anything else.

I invite Ms Mullins to make her opening statement on behalf of St. Brigid's action group.

Ms Susan Mullins

I thank the committee very much for inviting the St. Brigid's campaign back here again. It is such a privilege to be here and to hear the other statements from Loughrea and Midleton. I feel profoundly privileged to have heard those and to hear the same strains through all of our stories.

We thank the Chairman and the committee for inviting our Save St Brigid’s delegation representing the local community in Carrick-on-Suir and its surrounding areas in counties Tipperary, Waterford and Kilkenny, back to the Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen. We continue in our efforts to reopen St. Brigid’s and restore much needed step-down, respite, palliative care and short-term convalescence services to our community. I was here before in January.

I am a qualified solicitor who is self-employed in my own family-run practice in both Carrick-on-Suir and Tramore. I am a native of Carrick-on-Suir, where I also live. I am here in a personal capacity as a concerned member of the community and I am not being paid for my attendance here today nor for any time I have been before this committee, when the HSE were called before the committee or for any work carried out for St. Brigid’s.

As I said before, St. Brigid's has been an integral part of my life. My mother was a midwife in the hospital in the late 1960s and 1970s and I have many fond memories of calling into the hospital after school and waiting for mum to finish work in the kitchens. She would sometimes bring me round to the patients and I would get a few sweets and some chocolate, which was a big thing in the 1970s. My father and both my paternal grandparents died very peacefully in St. Brigid's and got the very best of care close to our home, which meant a huge amount.

To give some background, St. Brigid's opened 183 years ago as a fully-functional small district 16-bed hospital catering and caring for local people from the cradle to the grave. The hospital facilitated local people who needed maternity care deliveries and catered for people suffering from all forms of illness. Minor operations were carried out in the hospital. In later years, it morphed to accommodate people for respite and convalescence, with separate male and female wings. In the last 20 years or so, three state-of-the-art hospice rooms with en suites, kitchenettes and sitting and sleeping areas for families were added. There were almost 30 people employed in the hospital. The local people of Carrick and its environs part-funded the hospice rooms through years of massive fundraising efforts, some of which also went towards replacing all the windows and doors in the entire building and the installation of a lift. It is impossible to adequately portray the connection the people of the area have for St. Brigid’s. Almost every family has had a loved one stay at St. Brigid’s for one reason or another over the years. St. Brigid’s has been a haven for families in the area who continue to suffer at its closure. Despite St. Brigid’s being designated a step-down unit for recovering Covid-19 patients by the HSE in April 2020, this never came to pass. Instead, it was closed the following month in its capacity for step-down, respite, palliative care and short-term convalescence and the staff were redistributed without notice. It is currently being used for administration and office work.

On the petition itself, the save St. Brigid’s campaign submitted a petition with in excess of 11,000 signatures seeking to reopen the hospital to the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Butler, on 22 September 2021. We were invited to attend this committee in January last and we were warmly welcomed by the members. Our petition was listened to and discussed at length and with great feeling and empathy by the majority of Deputies and Senators present, for which we were most appreciative. Following our petition, the committee invited the HSE to appear before it to explain its decision to close St. Brigid’s, which was thought of so highly in respect of the services provided to the community and the excellent care given by staff. Patients, their families and the community at large all had a positive experience of St. Brigid’s. The HSE appeared before the committee in February last and the main issue put forward regarding the closure in the officials' opening statement and throughout the proceedings was the hospital building was old, had substantial shortcomings and a new modern building on a greenfield site with increased patient capacity was required. We are unaware of any progress or plans in this regard to date. We would welcome with open arms the return of step-down, respite, convalescence and palliative care services in a new building with increased capacity on the same site or close by.

While the HSE states the site of St. Brigid’s is not suitable for a new building, a large building called the primary care centre was recently built to complement - per the HSE officials in their appearance before this committee - St. Brigid's on the same grounds and taking up a much larger footprint on the site with community services such as physiotherapy, public health nurse, addiction counselling, speech therapy and vaccinations. This is a modern, large state-of-the-art building providing complementary services to St. Brigid’s, yet the building it was set to complement has been closed down. I know from first-hand experience of bringing my 80-year-old mother to the primary care building twice a week to see the public health nurse that this modern building has a faulty outside lift at the front which is broken more than it works. This is because the building was raised 2 m in case of flooding, which it has never done in the 180 years St. Brigid’s has been there. The call bell for the lift is located at the top of the seven steps to make contact with the building assistance to enter. There is no ramp to enter the building at the main entrance. This is located to the rear of the building, which is a considerable walk for any person with mobility issues. A new lift is apparently being requisitioned, but measurements are yet to be finalised and there is no sign of when it will be ready. It cannot be guaranteed that any elderly person with compromised mobility will be able to enter the building and access services as the outside lift cannot be depended upon and he or she cannot contact the facilities staff for assistance as he or she would have to climb the steps to press the call button. The lift has not been working properly since at least last year. Furthermore, the public seating inside the building is too low for elderly people. Both the public health nurses and the physiotherapy departments have been seeking alternative seating for patients in the years since the centre opened, but they are still waiting.

Since we last appeared before this committee on 19 January, things have become a lot worse in the provision of healthcare, particularly in respect of care and step-down facilities available for older people. There were attempts to justify the closure of St. Brigid’s by the HSE with reference to capacity being met in the private nursing home sector and the provision of a number of beds through this prism. A further justification was the service could be managed through the community services home care package. While the HSE states most people who are dying wish to remain at home, there are many who have no spouse or children living with them to make that possible. Accordingly, they have need of palliative care in their local community where their friends and family can spend precious time with them. Some of the latter may not have access to private transport. There is no public transport to St. Theresa’s Hospital in Clogheen from Carrick-on-Suir, which is a 40-minute drive away in a car.

I have attached a couple of articles regarding nursing homes and step-down to my submission. On a national level, we unfortunately see the nursing home sector is desperately struggling for capacity with a raft of closures commonplace. Rising utility costs and higher regulatory expectations have forced large numbers of smaller nursing homes to close in 2022 and more closures are coming down the line this year. HIQA said the closure of smaller nursing homes "requires urgent attention in order to avoid further closures impacting on the lives of residents and their families and friends". It went on to say this also affects the availability of step-down care from acute hospitals and long-term care for an ageing population. Nursing homes provide much-needed step-down care and respite. All of this was provided in our local district hospital. We never had such worries in relation to our publicly-funded St. Brigid’s Hospital until its unilateral closure by stealth during the advent of the Covid-19 pandemic. The contraction in bed capacity in smaller nursing homes last year totalled 466 beds according to a HIQA report from October 2022. HIQA went on to say that 247 beds have been lost with the closure of nine nursing homes between January and October 2022. A further 219 beds have been lost at seven other nursing homes that have informed the regulator they are closing their doors. That is from last October to the first quarter of this year. In total, 16 smaller nursing homes announced their closure last year.

We need more capacity and not less. That is why our call to reopen St. Brigid's Hospital is now more urgent than ever. Even though it was not a long-stay facility it was treated as such by the HIQA inspectors. It provided much-needed respite for families caring for their loved ones at home. It also provided much-needed step-down beds, which have nosedived in availability nationwide. We are in a crisis for facilities for our older and most vulnerable population and yet the HSE continues to close small district hospitals that could and have alleviated this issue over the years without putting anything alternative in place before it closes them.

I have also attached an article on the home help crisis. The most recent information available from the HSE shows that at the end of March 2023, more than 6,400 people were on the waiting list for new or additional home support care. These are often extremely vulnerable people whose need for home care has been proven and accepted by the HSE. In May, 240 people were being kept in hospital while waiting for residential care to be put in place. The census last year found there were 776,000 people aged 65 years or older, which is a staggering increase of more than one fifth on the position in 2016. The number of elderly people aged 80 years or older will quadruple to more than 500,000 in the next three decades.

Some medically well patients who no longer need to be in overcrowded hospitals have been languishing in wards for more than six months because of a lack of suitable step-down care while others wait on trolleys with no privacy while waiting for a bed to become available. For example, in late November last year, 47 patients who had been deemed ready for discharge at least six months earlier were still stuck in hospital.

The health service blockages in some social care supports and rehabilitation services for patients with the most complex needs are adding to the hospital gridlock. This led to another 530 patients on trolleys struggling for access to a bed late last year, which could be projected forward to the first quarter this year. Only weeks before that, hospitals had suffered recent record overcrowding. HSE figures showed there were 599 patients who were fit to leave but could not be discharged because there was nowhere for them to go. Of these, 552 were in hospital for less than six months and the rest were there for longer. Meanwhile, our hospital remains closed.

We still do not have replacements for the three palliative care beds that were lost when the HSE decided to close our hospital. Since that time, figures provided to us by the local undertakers tell us that each year between 40 and 50 of the people who died could have availed of our wonderful palliative care hospice rooms. Dying with dignity is a core part of a whole campaign. While the HSE states that most people's dying wish is to remain at home, there are many who have no spouse or children living with them to make that possible or they may have medical needs such that they cannot stay at home. These people need local palliative care services. Many local people whose loved ones are in the palliative care beds in St. Teresa's Hospital in Clogheen or in University Hospital Waterford are more than a 40-minute drive away. People are very anxious about leaving the patients in case they die in their end-of-life beds while they are travelling to or from the hospital. There is no public transport from Carrick-on-Suir to St. Teresa's in Clogheen which is an added difficulty. The stress the journey adds to people whose loved ones are dying cannot be overstated. The fear that if or when they leave, they may miss their loved one passing while they are travelling is unconscionable.

Given our rapidly-growing ageing population, it is incumbent on the HSE to review its policy of closing small district hospitals and backtrack. We need more beds for our elderly population and we need them sooner rather than later. More thought and creative innovation needs to go into making the smaller district hospitals work. We can see how the new children’s hospital costs are spiralling out of control. If extensions are needed to modernise these smaller hospitals then let the HSE investigate whether it is possible and give the job to find out if it will work to an open-minded person. It should not make the policy first and then say it does not work without any proper effort going into making it work, and without there being an adequate alternative in place before closing down a district hospital which had trained staff in situ.

It is apparent from the national news throughout last year and this year that current HSE policy is not working, between patients on trolleys in acute hospitals - and there is no patient dignity there - to a lack of supports for older people and a lack of step-down facilities. From the HSE’s responses to this committee’s inquiries, no proper consideration was given to trying to make St. Brigid’s work. For example, no costings were carried out on modernising or extending the building. We, as a community, desperately need our services back. The basis of Sláintecare is to bring healthcare back to the community. We are open to a new site if St. Brigid's cannot work as it is but we need the HSE to be open-minded too. It is never too late to do the right thing.

We are extremely grateful to have our concerns listened to and that this committee invited the HSE to explain its reasoning for closing our district hospital. This meant so much to the 11,000 signatories of our petition. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for their time and consideration.

Before I let anybody in, I want to ask a question. Ms Mullins is from the area. Will she give us an indication of the difficulties experienced by people she knows who had used St. Brigid's but now find themselves with a 40-minute drive to Clogheen? As she said, there is no public transport. People are 40 minutes away from a family member who may be receiving end-of-life care.

Ms Susan Mullins

There is an issue with respite for carers. We have heard about this from the other groups who have come before the committee. Carers at home are carrying so many elderly people and people with additional needs. These carers are getting no breaks because there is no respite. Nursing homes, which may have had a couple of beds for respite, are contracting. In Carrick-on-Suir we had St. Brigid's for 180 years. When people needed respite, the hospital was there. It might have only been for a few days but it was there. That rug has been whipped from under people. This has been going on for three years. We can see the toll it is starting to take on people. There is nowhere to go for respite care.

Respite and convalescence beds are a huge loss and the situation with palliative care is horrific. It is dreadful. My father was in one of the palliative care rooms. They were amazing. They were funded by the people of Carrick-on-Suir who believe they are stakeholders in this. We were completely brushed aside. We paid for so much through our own fundraising for windows, doors, the lift and the palliative care rooms. We put so much of ourselves into the hospital. At practically every second funeral, there was a box for donations for St. Brigid's. It was always there and people always contributed. Its loss is particularly felt by people who do not have their own transport. People in a caring role are getting no break. They will break down themselves and the person they are caring for will end up having to go to hospital.

It was incredible to listen to everybody and see it is happening nationwide. It is as if we are going backwards. We had St. Brigid's 180 years ago and now it is being closed down. There is no accountability. We received a copy of the minutes, thanks to the committee. It has been the only voice for the people of Carrick-on-Suir and the area to communicate their distress and grief at losing this hospital which gave facilities to the most vulnerable. Only for this, we would never have got anything. We were brushed aside when trying to get information from the arrogant HSE. The committee looked for minutes when the HSE came before it which was fantastic. Minutes were produced but they were completely redacted. There was one line left in the whole thing. It was offensive to everybody who sits on the committee.

To be fair, given the work and the amount of money raised over the years by the people of Carrick-on-Suir and its catchment area, they are entitled to feel they are stakeholders in the hospital. As Ms Mullins said, the rug was pulled from under them with no consideration given to what had gone on previously. Senator Craughwell will speak about the redacted minutes shortly. This was an insult to us as a committee but a real kick in the teeth to the community. I am quite sure that when we start receiving information about Owenacurra, Loughrea and other places we will probably finish up with something like this also. We all understand that names may need to be redacted in documents-----

Ms Susan Mullins

Yes, of course.

-----but whole sections of the minutes of meetings were redacted. The HSE may as well have sent us an empty envelope as what it has sent us.

Ms Susan Mullins

Yes.

As has been said, we will bring the HSE back before the committee again. As Cathaoirleach of the committee, I feel it is an awful insult to committee members and to the staff given the amount of work they put into trying to get this information out of the HSE and then to finish up with what we got.

Those who are viewing probably cannot see the document. There are great big lumps of black on the pages. The only word I can see on one page is "post". That is very helpful. It is the most insulting document that has ever been published by anybody. A public representative in the Gallery gave me this document today. To send it out shows a total level of arrogance beyond belief.

Ms Mullins has appeared before the committee a few times. Every time I hear the story of St. Brigid's, I have a vision of a local health centre where, if I lived in the area, I could go to die and while I was passing out of this life, my family could be around me along with the people I knew and the neighbours I grew up with. It paints a beautiful picture. Somebody in the HSE took a decision and that is it - there is no going back.

Public representatives from the local area are present and they will have their own view on it, including local authority members who have travelled with the witnesses.

The way we as public representatives and local government representatives are being treated by the HSE is absolutely outrageous. I have revised my request to ask we also bring the Minister for Health in either before or after the HSE. Somebody somewhere has to be answerable. This is a heartbreaking story. I think the last time we were talking respite care was being offered in Waterford or Tipperary town. Those were the two options.

The way we as public representatives and local government representatives are being treated by the HSE is absolutely outrageous. I have revised my request that we also bring the Minister for Health in before or after the HSE. Somebody somewhere has to be answerable. This is a heartbreaking story. I think the last time we were talking respite care was being offered in Waterford or Tipperary town. Those were the two options.

Ms Susan Mullins

That is right. The palliative care was in University Hospital Waterford and St. Theresa's Hospital in Clogheen and the respite is in Tipp. That has not changed.

A Chathaoirligh, I rest my case at this stage. It makes me so angry to hear about Loughrea, Ms. Curtis's place in Cork and to talk about St. Brigid's again. Somebody said to me some time ago that the St. Brigid's thing was politically motivated. I do not believe that for a second. The signatures Ms Mullins and the campaign have cannot all be people from one party.

Ms Susan Mullins

Yes, exactly.

I am going to give the floor to the people who are closest to it. Deputy Mattie McGrath is here and Deputy Cahill is here.

We will hear from Deputy Cahill and then Deputy McGrath.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Not being a member of this committee I am thankful for the opportunity to contribute. Ms Mullins gave a superb opening statement overflowing with common sense. Any reasonable person listening to her would ask how the HSE can defend its action. As Councillor Kieran Bourke reminded me when the meeting was suspended, it was on the last day of the Dáil three years ago that he and I met the Minister, Deputy Donnelly. The Minister gave us a categoric assurance that evening St. Brigid's would be kept open. Unfortunately, that commitment has been reneged on. The councillor and I can only relay what was said to us that evening. We were happy then that once Covid and the problems it was creating had eased, St. Brigid's would again take its pivotal place in the healthcare of the people of Carrick-on-Suir and the surrounding areas, but unfortunately that has not happened.

Listening to Ms Mullins, I was thinking of how yesterday the families of two constituents were in contact with me. Their parent is ready to leave hospital and being discharged but there is no step-down or respite bed to go to. That is two cases in my office and I am sure it is the same in the offices of Deputy McGrath and others. We have a shortage of beds. We get figures every day showing how many people are on trolleys around the country. It baffles me the HSE cannot see places like St. Brigid's have a huge, pivotal role to play in solving that trolley crisis. It does not matter which hospital the people were in. Neither of the people I mentioned were in a Tipperary hospital, but they were Tipperary people. They are going to be in hospital all over the weekend while we try to get a respite bed for them somewhere. We can all argue and give out about the health service being this or that and the problems not easily solved, but as the then Taoiseach said one day, we should pick the low-hanging fruit first and try to make improvements in the health service that way. We would be doing that by keeping places like St. Brigid's open. It was St. Micheal's unit in Tipperary University Hospital, Clonmel he was referring to that day after a visit there. I am thankful the beds in St. Micheal's unit will be open for the forthcoming winter and I hope it will ease the trolley crisis in Tipperary University Hospital. If was a highly-paid executive in the HSE looking at this issue of our having a lot of people on trolleys, which we all want to resolve, I would surely look at the model of the likes of St. Brigid's Hospital to try to ease it. We are in the middle of summer and as I said, there are those two families whose parents have been discharged, but the parents are not well enough to come home. Ms Mullins made points about nursing homes. We have all been lobbied by nursing homes in the last couple of weeks as they are under huge pressure as well.

Such fundraising has been done in Carrick to support St. Brigid's. As the Cathaoirleach said, the community would be entitled to feel they were stakeholders in the building. That is the way they felt about it. People in Carrick are getting tired of this battle now. It has been three years and they are frustrated. They want to get what was rightly theirs, namely, respite and palliative care beds. There is a huge fight on at the moment to get properly-functioning palliative care beds into St. Antony's unit in Clonmel. Families will want to be near a person who is in his or her final days and hours and a proper family room must be attached to that palliative care bed. To put a palliative care bed into a hospital is not enough as proper facilities are needed, which St. Brigid's had in three well-designed rooms that served for generations.

There is the Dean Maxwell unit in the north of the county. There has been a huge fight to get long-stay beds into it and finally the HSE is in the process of doing something to sort that situation after years and years of lobbying and fighting. The HSE was going to leave Roscrea without any long-term beds and we hope that is on the way to being resolved, so I tell the people of Carrick they must keep fighting. It is their right to have respite, step-down and palliative care beds in their locality. To tell a person in Carrick he or she is going to have a palliative care or respite bed in Clogheen is just nonsensical. It is impractical and not on. I am not going into how many people have transport or whatever. If a person is ill you want to be near them as frequently as possible and to be asked to travel those kinds of distances is nonsensical. Councillor Bourke and the other councillors in the area have fought a hard fight. We cannot say there is any progress made. There is no point in fooling ourselves. We have not made progress and we are meeting a stone wall from the HSE.

I will finish by saying the last day we met in January I was asked by people in the gallery to look for the minutes of that meeting. I had not seen them until today. A Chathaoirligh, you cannot let the HSE away with giving that answer to your committee.

We have no intention of it, Deputy Cahill.

I know, but it is an insult to us. The question was asked in good faith. As public representatives, we are entitled to know the background to how the decision was made. That is what we are asking and why we wanted the the minutes. If the HSE wants to block out-----

Just to let the public know, I think five pages of a reply came back and I would say about a hundred words were readable out of those five pages.

I have just seen it there. We are entitled to know what the basis was for making that decision. Someone may want his or her identity to be protected, though I have questions about whether that should be, because they are HSE employees and if they make a decision they should have the-----

Just to be clear, if the HSE wants to redact a name I or others would not have any great issue with it, but to react whole sections of meetings is different.

I probably would not follow all that, but if the officials are able to stand over the decision they made they should be prepared to put their names beside it too, Chairman.

The officials are executives and made the decision. They should be able to put their names on it.

They should be able to stand over it.

I am sure the Chairman will not let this go. For a committee of the Oireachtas to have the reply sent to it is just not acceptable.

I thank the Chairman for allowing me the opportunity.

Okay. I will give Deputy McGrath seven minutes.

I thank the Chair and-----

I was not that long, surely.

I would say Deputy McGrath has probably as much to say as us all, so I want to give him the same amount.

I thank the Chair and welcome Ms Mullins, Councillors Bourke and Dunne and all the people from the other areas who are up here. It is so sad that ordinary people like Ms Mullins, who is a busy woman running her own business, must come up at their own expense and take time off work to deal with a stone wall. The committee requested the minutes of the meeting and got them with so much redaction.

It is an insult to the intelligence of Members of the Oireachtas, the public in general and the people of Carrick-an-Suir and south Tipperary, south-east Kilkenny and west Waterford. I will not beat around the bush with names. I lay the blame for this closure at the feet of the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and older people, Deputy Butler. This is her area. We found out since that hospice beds have been put into the University Hospital Waterford. I am not going into the history.

This is a fabulous, functioning facility. I have often been in there to see people and to attend events over the years. Fundraising events were held to fund those three wonderful hospice suites, the replacement of windows and work on other parts of the hospital. What is happening is a crying shame. We see that for parts of Africa in respect of which we fundraise in order to build hospitals there and to help priests build churches. That is fine. When I first entered politics, the HSE had a turnover of about €1.5 billion. Now it is nearly €25 billion. There is such waste. I am glad that Ms Mullins gave an overview of this white elephant. I will visit it. They built that - and I put this to the architect - with no lift. It is hard to imagine a modern public medical building with no wheelchair access. If we want to build something or put in a downstairs toilet, we have to have ramps of specified lengths. Housing adaptation grants for people with disabilities are hard to get but they are of great assistance to individuals who want to remain at home. Yet, they could build without that. Then there was an add-on. I was shocked to discover that there is a set of steps leading up to the door where people ring the bell. I am shocked that the bell has been out of action for some time. I am completely shocked that the seating inside is not the proper height for people. That goes to show how the senior management in the HSE view patients and the public who use the service. They do not give a toss.

It was mentioned earlier that they could not understand how there was space for offices in the facility in Loughrea. Offices are what they want. My wife is a psychiatric nurse. She works in St. Luke’s in Clonmel. That is all closed. Half of that hospital is now offices. The offices are better than the ones in Government Buildings. They want more offices. It is high time we had an audit of the number of offices.

The hospice in Clonmel used a great deal of money to put beds into St. Joseph’s, as I call it, and South Tipperary General Hospital. We identified two rooms in 2004 when I was chair of the council. Agreement was reached and when the hospital was refitted, offices were put in there. St. Anthony’s ward was supposed to get three palliative care beds. There is only one. We are fighting to get a second. The lovely spaces in Carrick and Cloneen were funded by the public. This new 60-bed St. Anthony’s ward in Clonmel will only have one family room to deal with all the others as well as the hospice. That tells us how uncaring they are in regard to the hospital. The people of Carrick have protested but the HSE does not care because Ministers allow it to do this. It is the same with RTÉ. The situation regarding the latter is getting worse by the hour today according to the reports I received when we took a break. This is the same. There is no accountability or transparency, just arrogance. It sent out that thing today with all the legal waste. What are they hiding? Who are they hiding it from? How dare they hide stuff from us? By God Almighty, if Dan Breen and other people were here, they would not hide it. I am not being aggressive in any way but it is scandalous that they can do this.

The white elephant they talked about is two thirds empty. It will fall down, but the hospital will still be standing. The hospital has never been flooded in 183 years. This is a mockery. HIQA will close down nursing homes, just as the one in Carrick was closed down, or pressurise them. HIQA broke the owner. I was dealing with her at the time. They will not go in. They cannot see their own nose inside the hospital where trolleys are blocking corridors. Bed blockers cannot get into these places. The staff in St. Brigid’s were treated appallingly as well. It was fit for purpose before the onset of Covid-19. However, it was also found to be fit for purpose when the pandemic arrived. Suddenly, it is no longer fit for purpose for anything. It is just an excuse to close these places. They are being closed throughout the country.

One of the biggest issues I see with the HSE and the Department of Health over the past 20 years is the rush to change all the Catholic names of the hospitals and to remove all the Christian symbols, statues and everything else. What is going on, namely, what they are doing to the people of Ireland and those who want these services, is bordering on satanic. They are being thrown to the wind. We lost our mental health service at St. Michael’s. We got nothing but we were promised everything under A Vision for Change. They have visions for everything, but the vision I see now is self-endearing and self-engendering promotion of the top jobs with massive wages, expenses, travelling expenses, reports and trips abroad to look at this or that system. The HSE has cannibalised itself. Two former taoisigh, Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen, told me that they would stand down the HSE. The Government should have the gumption to do that because it is a monster.

I do not want to be political but I would love to see commitment from Sinn Féin - that party is going to be in the next Government - that it will reopen St. Brigid’s. I want that commitment to be made because the people of Carrick, south Kilkenny and west Waterford deserve it. They deserve these beds. We should not have to do council work today. There are a dozen others. We have enough to do. The time for this charade is over. I have brought motions before the House about the national children's hospital. I reminded the head spokesman earlier that Sinn Féin and all voted for the hospital to be built at the location that was chosen. I hate to be political but facts are facts. We need to-----

This is apolitical-----

Well, the facts are the facts. Nothing redacted from me; it is all there. I thank the Cathaoirleach for his time but we need those commitments. Otherwise, we are going around in circles.

The commitment we are giving relates to the implementation of Sláintecare right across the board. If each party implements it, we will not be sitting in these committee rooms arguing about what is happening. I call Deputy Buckley.

I will be brief, particularly as I am not from Tipperary. I am from Kilkenny, although I did marry a Waterford woman or she, for her sins, married me.

Ms Mullins presentation on behalf of her group does exactly what it says on the tin: we are going backwards. I was thoroughly disappointed when she stated that since they were here in January, things have actually got worse. I am conscious that when we talk about the HSE, the staff, the cleaners and cooks and everybody else, we are talking about people who take their jobs to heart, are exemplary. The issue is with the top management. The latter probably have bonkers syndrome because they have a zero commonsense approach and zero engagement. In the context of the idea of sending people home when there are more than 6,500 on a waiting list, they might have a better of chance entering the Red Sea with a bucket that has no ass in it. That is how simplistic it is to be honest. It is the biggest smokescreen. I call it snuggle blanket syndrome. Give them a little snuggle blanket and send them home. Whoever is at home will mind them and we can move on with our fancy offices and sell the property and get back to the technicalities. I will leave it at that as I am conscious I want to give the witnesses their platform today. I was fortunate enough to get mine. I will just say that they have the support of the Joint Committee for Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen. This is a special committee because it has never played politics. Each and every issue here affects somebody in some locality. As elected representatives, and we are lucky to be in the position, we have a duty to serve the people. There are some who think that we have magic wands. We do not. However, we do our best to give people a platform in order that their voices can be heard. We are here to hear the concerns of groups such as the Owenacurra group to the effect that injustices have been done and have to be reversed.

There are just a couple of comments for Ms Mullins. We all know the background. We also know that one of the excuses given for St. Brigid's closure was flooding. We had a great deal of heavy rain since, and councillors Dunne and Burke have been out in the floods down there. However, to the best of my knowledge, the St. Brigid's site has not been flooded since the witnesses were last here. Can Ms Mullins confirm that?

Ms Susan Mullins

It never flooded.

It never flooded, as far as we all know. It was just another excuse that the HSE gave at the time.

Ms Susan Mullins

Never, and the primary care centre was built 2 m up because the HSE brought in engineers who saw that there was a river nearby and, to their minds, there must have been a flood plain there. It was never flooded, though, and the 2 m was the issue then, with the lift and the new thing that does not work.

Another huge issue is that no alternative was put in place. It is like the stories of the other two witnesses from Loughrea and Midleton. Nothing else was put in place before the HSE shut the centre down, and it was working. Fair enough, the HSE was saying there was bigger capacity for costs and so on. Could it not build something else? The HSE never looked at this properly. There were no costings. That was very apparent. It was just a case of get ridding of it because it costs us too much.

I heard Deputy Mattie McGrath speak of the palliative rooms. Those three palliative rooms were just magic. There is no other word for them. I cannot articulate the peace and solace those three rooms brought to people. It was amazing. All my neighbours have been in that hospital. It touched every family. It worked really well, the staff were amazing and the HSE shut it down. To listen to other people here today, it seems to be a policy of the HSE to shut down all this old stuff. Then I listen to Ms Curtis speak about mental health and going back to the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere, and it is like the HSE is going back to the 19th century, whereas 180 years ago we had a hospital that was working. It is like the HSE is trying to shut all this down and there is some policy at the top layer Deputy Buckley talked about. The top layer made this decision and is shutting down all these facilities but putting nothing in place beforehand, and we are having a massive crisis with our population getting older. It is going to implode.

The HSE is a cannibal of itself, with a budget of €25 billion and the amount it spends on agency work. It is like it is not the HSE's money so there is no managing of the money. Then it shuts down something that works perfectly. What I think hurt the people of Carrick-on-Suir and the 11,000 signatories the most was that nearly everybody has contributed to that hospital in some way. Everybody had a loved one in there for some reason, including my neighbours and my family. It is shocking because the hospital worked and the HSE shut it without providing an alternative. That is the issue and it is what the HSE is doing everywhere - shutting what works and coming up with these mad ideas. I have listened to the story of Loughrea, where the HSE wanted to put the people for day care, which is so important. There is ageist discrimination. For carers, too, there is discrimination in Carrick-on-Suir.

I could keep going on about this. I see now that there are offices in St. Brigid's Hospital while we have this massive new state-of-the-art building that is not doing what it should. We have St. Brigid's with those three palliative rooms and we have offices in there.

To come back to the new building there, the HSE is talking about closing St. Brigid's because of flooding. It will tell you the geniuses we have at the top of the HSE that they would come in and spend, I think, €2.7 million to build a state-of-the-art facility on a flood plain and start throwing out those excuses. We have seen in Cashel - Deputy McGrath was at the meeting on that - that St. Patrick's was to be built and now the HSE has decided the site is not big enough so the facility is moving. There is 2.5 acres out the back of that hospital. I do not know what size of a unit is being built, whether it has ten beds or 60 beds, but there is loads of room there. The HSE is closing these facilities down bit by bit. We were at a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, in Clonmel at which St. Brigid's was discussed. An admission was made that 350 beds were not going to be lost at that stage. I believe this is the reason all the smaller hospitals are being targeted bit by bit.

As regards the provision of services in the wider Cork area, where there appears to be a lack of consistency in the services provided, what would Ms Curtis like to see now in the east Cork area?

Ms Joanna Curtis

I would like to see beds in each of the three towns, that is, Cobh, Midleton and Youghal. Everybody is talking about health provision. It is drifting away from the individual person. If we have a mental health crisis, it involves primary school children and teenagers. We know that the farming community has mental health problems, as do the elderly, who have serious issues with loneliness. We will face further mental health issues now. There is an elderly crisis and certainly a mental health crisis, with financial problems, the climate - everything. It is affecting everybody. Jobs are not secure. We need a brand-new system or person for every single individual. I do not know why we cannot have a discussion with the HSE as a citizens' health forum with all the local counsellors. The person who wrote my presentation is a psychologist and a counsellor. Why can we not sit down now in local areas? It needs to be local; it must not be back to this institution-based health service. We cannot put people on sites like that.

Going back to A Vision for Change, if we are to go along with people-based, community-based care with the practitioners, while we have a say, why can we not have an open discussion? Why has the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, not come down? We have been visited by Senator Frances Black and Deputy Neasa Hourigan. Certain people have come down and discussed this, but this committee is the only committee we can approach now. The petitions committee is our only chance. We do not have anywhere else to go. We want to open up a dialogue with any committee, Member of the Oireachtas or member of the HSE to sit down and talk to us about what Midleton needs and what 100,000 people in east Cork need. We are asking them to come and talk to us. We have the people willing to talk and to show what the needs are in our community. Certainly, those people in the Owenacurra Centre were really valuable to us. I cannot get that message across to the committee enough. They were valued members of our community. Our community looked after them. They were in the centre of our community, with their families nearby. We must never forget the people who looked after them, the staff. They are local people who knew the families. That is on a human level. Could we not get back to individual care in the elderly centres and in palliative care, in which I have worked? In every community we need facilities to look after our own, truly.

I reiterate that. Ms Curtis is right that I have approached the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, on numerous occasions, officially and unofficially, and even asked her during the last break or so-called recess, whenever it was, in her capacity as a civilian to go in and look at the place. Unfortunately, that request was declined. Ms Curtis is right about how important this is.

Of all the stories, one particular story stood to me, namely, that of a lovely man who had the ability to go to the shop on his own and get his bottles of water and a few apples. Ms Curtis knows who I am talking about. He could get on a bus and travel somewhere and come back. I spoke to him outside the courthouse at the top of the town, where there is a little seated area, and he said to me, "I thought this was my forever home and I was going to die here." That is a fact, and that was a grown man crying on a Saturday morning. I meet him most Saturday mornings. I do not think management knows the detrimental effect this is having on the individuals. They are not stupid. They have issues but they are not getting respect.

You should treat the person, not the problem. That is the issue here, and people outside of this committee should take that on board. I appeal to the HSE, especially the new board of the HSE for Cork and Kerry, to come down to the area. Ms Curtis is right that everybody should sit down at the table. As I have said before, we all make mistakes, but we should be brave enough to put up our hands. We do not mistakes; mistakes make us who we are. If you can be a better person for that, it should not be about money or means. It should be about the needs of people. That is the biggest problem. We have lost that vision. If people were really serious about this, they would grow the cojones to stand up to bullying.

I will be very blunt and brief on this. I remember meeting a top child psychologist at a meeting of the Committee on the Future of Mental Health Care. When he came in here he was leaving a post in some area very similar to where the witnesses are now. This was a number of years ago. The first question I asked that man was if he was threatened by senior management that day because he had come here as a witness, and his response was "Yes". That will tell you how bad it is.

Does Ms Curtis and Ms Mullins want to make a brief closing remark? I am conscious that time has dragged on. It has been a long meeting at three and a half hours. Do they have any closing remarks they wish to make?

Ms Susan Mullins

The only thing I would like to say is that this committee has kept the issue alive. It is our lifeline. That is why I made such an effort to come up here three times because the issue is so important to me. I feel I represent an element of the community, as well as the group. We do not want the issue to die and the conversation to stop. We want to keep it alive because we want to find a way back either to St. Brigid's or to a modified St. Brigid's or a new one - we need the services back. It is about keeping the issue alive and where we need to go. I thank the committee very much.

Ms Joanna Curtis

I echo everything Ms Mullins said. I thank the Cathaoirleach and the clerks and all the support we have had in correspondence. I really appreciate it. We must not let it go. I thank everyone.

On behalf of the committee, we can assure the witnesses that we will not let it go. I will not say the treatment the HSE has given is as bad as what it has given to the communities, but it is not good enough that the HSE or Departments treat any committee or any location the way it has. I assure the witnesses that we, as a committee, will not let it go. We will have the HSE before the committee and, as was said earlier, we will try to get the Minister in after that. The buck stops with the Minster. The HSE is the Minister's responsibility. I thank the Friends of Owenacurra Group, the Save St Brigid's Action Group and the Loughrea concerned citizens group. It has been a very good meeting and very informative for us. I will suspend the meeting for five minutes to let the witnesses depart.

Sitting suspended at 4.12 p.m. and resumed at 4.19 p.m.
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