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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Oct 2023

Closure of Vital Health Services: Discussion (Resumed)

Our next business is engagement with Mr. Joe Ryan and his colleagues at the HSE regarding the closure of vital health services in counties Galway, Cork and Tipperary, which relates to Nos. P00020/23, P00042/21 and P00048/21. Members of Loughrea concerned citizens group for the Seven Springs day centre, along with members of St. Brigid's action group and Ms Joanna Curtis for the Owenacurra centre, are in the Public Gallery. I welcome them all to the proceedings.

I will explain some of the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. They are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her, or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I propose we publish the opening statements of the witnesses on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I extend a warm welcome to Mr. Joe Ryan, national director, operational performance and integration at the HSE; Mr. John Fitzmaurice, chief officer, Community Healthcare West; Ms Tess O’Donovan, chief officer, Cork Kerry Community Healthcare; and Ms Helen McDaid, head of older persons services, South East Community Healthcare. Mr. Ryan will read out the opening statement, which I suggest should last approximately ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members. Each member will have approximately ten minutes and may speak more than once.

Mr. Joe Ryan

Good afternoon to members. I thank them for the invitation to attend today's meeting. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Fitzmaurice, chief officer, Community Healthcare West, Ms O’Donovan, chief officer, Cork Kerry Community Healthcare, and Ms McDaid, head of older persons services, South East Community Healthcare.

The HSE is committed to enabling older people to live independently within their own homes and communities for as long as possible. High-quality health and social services for older people provide continuity of care, integrated between care settings. There are a number of key constituents to comprehensive services, including GP care, public health nursing, home care supports, acute hospital care, rehabilitation and long-term care.

I will now give a brief update on Seven Springs day centre, Loughrea, Owenacurra in Cork and St. Brigid’s Hospital in Carrick-on-Suir. Over the summer months, the management of community healthcare west, CHW, took the opportunity to re-examine the issue of the day care at Seven Springs Day Centre, Loughrea. This was done in the context of a number of service developments both within and external to the HSE and the current Government policy context as it relates to older people. These include the full roll-out of the integrated care programme for older people model across the CHW area, the mainstreaming of the age-friendly healthy homes initiative within the local authority sector giving national coverage and the joint policy statement on housing options for our ageing population between the Departments of Health and Housing, Planning and Local Government.

As part of this work, CHW has commenced a review of the use of our short-stay beds as a means of enabling a step up of care from the community and a step down from the acute setting along a co-ordinated and integrated continuum of care. In order to maintain our older people ageing in place, this will necessitate the redesignation of some of our long-stay beds as short-stay beds and increasing the total number of beds available through investment in the urgent and emergency care plan. One of the sites we may be able to redesignate beds from long stay to short stay is St. Brendan’s community nursing unit. There are 100 beds in St. Brendan’s. At present, 12 are designated as short stay. We have made an application to HIQA to deregister an additional 12 beds to convert them to short stay. This will afford us a better balance in the overall service delivery model available in St. Brendan's in meeting the needs of the older population locally. Subject to approval from HIQA, this may result in a reduction in the overall area that is required under the regulations for communal space for the long-term residents of St. Brendan’s. If this were to happen, the management of CHW has committed to re-examining the day care in Seven Springs to see if it could be reopened to attendance by local older people in Loughrea and the surrounding areas. CHW is also developing a proposal to develop a multiagency ageing well hub on the campus of St. Brendan’s, with the aim of providing a one-stop shop for access to and information on services and supports with a specific focus on ageing well and ageing in place. As there are a number of issues that need decision and clarification, this is still very much a work in progress in CHW as we seek to come to a mutually agreeable solution with the concerned citizens of Loughrea group pertaining to Seven Springs.

On 5 September 2023, management from CHW met with members of the concerned citizens group together with a number of local representatives. At this meeting, CHW outlined a number of options with regard to the provision of the day care service in St. Brendan’s. The options included internal reconfigurations to the current Seven Springs day centre facility to allow for increased access to additional communal and recreational space for the residents of St. Brendan's. This is in addition to the redesignation of a number of beds in line with wider service developments and would potentially both decrease the overall area required for communal space in line with HIQA regulations and also increase the communal space options available to residents in St. Brendan's. The potential development of a multiagency ageing well hub would further increase the element of choice and communal spaces available to residents and day care attendees. The management of CHW gave a commitment to maintain regular communication with the concerned citizens group as the proposal was being worked on and key decisions were made.

The Owenacurra centre is a 24-bed approved centre located near the town centre of Midleton, County Cork. It is a single-storey building, built in the 1970s, and repurposed for mental healthcare in 1988, becoming an approved centre in 2016. The Owenacurra Centre was set up to deliver an inpatient care service for up to 24 people for long-stay psychiatry of later life mental health rehabilitation and continuing mental healthcare rehabilitation. The Owenacurra Centre is a registered Mental Health Commission facility. Currently, there are six people residing in the service. The current building and layout of the centre does not allow for the needs of a modern, fit-for-purpose residential and day service facility. The Mental Health Commission inspection reports on the unit note that while the therapeutic service and programmes meet the assessed needs of the residents, and while the service has endeavoured to provide privacy and dignity for residents, environmental factors and deficits of the structure of the building were highlighted.

When Cork Kerry community healthcare moved to the advanced planning phase for works to the centre, serious concerns emerged that any level of refurbishment could not bring the building to the standards required. The possibility to refurbish the existing Owenacurra centre, with residents remaining on site during the works, was considered, but the position of the HSE is that this is not possible, would not be safe and would not be in the best interest of residents. The fact that the current building is a prefabricated building from the 1970s, which would have had a life expectancy of 40 years, is a key factor. Despite considerations as to how such a refurbishment could be achieved in a safe and cost-effective manner, no such refurbishment could be delivered to the quality of accommodation which residents deserve and in line with modern requirements and standards.

In June 2021, further to advice from construction experts, the HSE took the difficult but necessary decision to plan for a closure of the centre. The HSE plans to provide a new ten-bed purpose built rehabilitative residential unit in Midleton town. This service will have 24-hour staffing and will have a focus on supporting people to return to their homes and communities. This unit will be put in place to meet the local needs of the community and this will complement the work of the local community multidisciplinary mental health team. The CEO of the HSE recently visited Owenacurra and met with some of the staff and residents. He will be issuing further correspondence to public representatives on the topic of Owenacurra shortly.

St. Brigid’s Hospital in Carrick-on-Suir was a short-stay unit with 16 beds including three palliative, two respite and 11 convalescent short-stay beds. There were no long-stay residential beds at the hospital. The HSE operated activity at the hospital and the design and layout of the hospital was largely reflective of the time period in which it was built. Over time, it became a district hospital providing general medical, dental and maternity care. The service thereafter changed to provide short-stay services as per the bed configuration stated.

In February 2023, South East Community Healthcare area provided detail which informed the Joint Committee on Public Petitions of a HIQA report 2018 which identified continued regulatory non-compliance which identified substantial shortcomings in the premises of St Brigid’s service to deliver safe and fit-for-purpose services and of the Covid-19 response by South East Community Healthcare to designate St. Brigid's as a Covid-19 step-down facility to support flow from the acute hospitals in the region. While the predicted demand for the Covid-19 step-down facility did not emerge, it was necessary to use the staffing resource from St. Brigid’s to meet demands in community healthcare services due to the impact of Covid-19. With improved understanding around the requirements for infection prevention and control regarding Covid-19, coupled with the challenges of the structural environment of St. Brigid’s, it was determined that it was not viable safely to resume St. Brigid’s Hospital as an older persons short-stay unit.

The location of St Brigid’s is noted and acknowledged for its enduring history and connection to the local community, and in order to preserve the community ethos at the existing St. Brigid’s Hospital site, it was determined that St. Brigid’s would be used as a hub for integrated community services. St. Brigid's is ideally located for access to the community and supports as it is adjacent to the primary care centre and thus allows for optimum team co-location. A number of adaptions were made to the building in order to enable St. Brigid’s to be converted into a community health centre.

The service for older people at the South East Community Healthcare organisation continues to be committed to reviewing services delivered, including in south Tipperary, in line with population health planning and Sláintecare principles. There is an ongoing building programme for our older persons’s services, with current builds in Clonmel, south Tipperary, where there will 50 beds and Thomastown, County Kilkenny, where there will be 95 beds, and, under the national enhanced community care programme, there has been a fundamental shift in the planning and delivery of healthcare services, moving away from hospital-based activity to community-based services for people in their own homes.

The HSE met with support groups and public representatives in Clonmel on 18 September 2023. A further meeting is scheduled for 23 October 2023. South East Community Healthcare welcomes this opportunity to work with the interested support groups. The focus of the meeting on 23 October will be to establish terms of reference and membership.

We will be happy to answer any questions from members of the committee.

I thank Mr. Ryan. Several Deputies who are not members of the committee are joining us today, including Deputies Canney, Hourigan and Mattie McGrath. Some of them have indicated they are in a rush. Is it acceptable to skip the usual procedure of letting committee members speak first?

I am in my office in Leinster House. I am very happy to let the Deputies directly impacted by these decisions, particularly those from Galway and Tipperary, go ahead of me. I am referring to Deputies Canney, Mattie McGrath and one or two others.

I agree. Deputy Canney is present to give the western perspective.

Deputy Mattie McGrath has indicated he wants to contribute. I will let Deputies Canney and Hourigan contribute after him.

I thank the Chairman. I appreciate his forbearance and his allowing me and the other Members to contribute early. I welcome our guests. I am not going to comment on the situation in the west; I will stick to St. Brigid's, if the Cathaoirleach does not mind. We have heard it all before. The facility, with its 16 beds, including three palliative care beds and respite beds, has been closed. We are not being given any coherent reasons for the closure. Reference has been made to the HIQA report of 2018, which stated the standards were not reached and to other reports issued thereafter. However, how could the premises be deemed suitable for a Covid step-down facility? It does not add up. It is not honest, transparent or anything else.

A colleague of mine, Councillor Kieran Bourke, came up here and met the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, with Deputy Cahill. I was not at the meeting. The Minister assured them that the facility would reopen after Covid. Then, all of a sudden, it was decided it was not suitable. If we cannot trust the word of a Minister given to a colleague face to face, who is running the Department of Health and the HSE? The councillor went home and told people in good faith what he was told by the Minister for Health. I met him that night. I was not at the meeting with the Minister - I was not asked to it - but that is what happened.

Mr. Ryan has mentioned that the staffing resource of St. Brigid's was needed to help out during Covid, and he also mentioned community services. There was heaps of room in the white elephant of a building beside it, or whatever you want to call it. It was three quarters empty. Why did the HSE have to make a community centre out of a wonderful, beautiful, well-managed facility? Mr. Ryan said it is of its time. Of course it is of its time but it has stood the test of time well and has been upgraded. There were renovations and fundraising by people, including the families that really benefited from it. We had a meeting last Monday week on palliative care beds for south Tipperary, specifically for Clonmel. One man broke down talking about his wife's last weeks in the hospice. There were top-class people there. If the HSE can pull those beds, as well as the other ones, where is the humanity and understanding? There was considerable fundraising at wakes and on various other occasions, and there were donation boxes. I am referring not only to families related to those receiving palliative care but to ordinary families whose loved ones spent their last days in the facility and who got respite through it. The money has not been returned to the fundraising committee. The last time we asked about it, we heard a mechanism was being devised to get it back. The community did not want it back; they wanted their hospital and beds.

Mr. Ryan's report today is just another whitewash job. There is no truth or honesty. The people need the facility. Three hospice beds are lost. Mr. Ryan mentioned that a 50-bed unit is under construction in Clonmel. We are told, to our horror, that it can have only one hospice bed and no ancillary room. There is one family room for all 50 patients. They will have the same right to access as the hospice care patient. It is an insult to the people of Clonmel. Having done considerable fundraising over the decades, they are furious. They have funds and are fundraising. If they only had rooms, they would kit them out themselves, as people have done all over the country in wonderful hospices. It is a whitewash – nothing but a tissue of untruths.

I, too, want to raise a few issues concerning St. Brigid's, which is in my constituency. The last time the delegates were in, they were asked for documentation on the decisions to close St. Brigid's and other places. Nothing was received but a redacted document that was an insult to members of this committee and others who asked for the information. Of perhaps five or six pages, you could read only about 100 words. There were black pages. We still have not got any documentation from the HSE on the reasons for closing the places in question.

It seems to be the estates side of the HSE that is taking the decisions, based on opinions, as we gathered here on the last occasion. There were no minutes taken of a meeting and no engineers' reports with reasons; it was a matter of opinion. We all have opinions but our opinions and those of the HSE affect families in Tipperary, Galway and Cork. If the HSE or the estates part of that body is making decisions that result in the closure of places, the reasons should at the very least be in the minutes, especially when a committee like this or a Member of the Dáil is asking for the kind of information in question.

I meant to bring in the document with redactions so I could show it to the public again. It was a complete and utter insult to us as committee members and even to the staff who go to so much trouble to run committees.

After asking, we were told that flooding was one of the reasons for closing St. Brigid's. Someone in their wisdom decided to spend €2 million on a building beside it, on the very same yard or site. I am referring to a new primary care centre that had to have the floor lifted. Who takes responsibility for these kinds of decisions? If St. Brigid's is on a flood plain, as we have been told, what is the evidence? We have asked for documents or reports from over the years that indicate flooding was a problem at St. Brigid's, but there are none. We are not being given any documentation stating it ever flooded because there is none. Therefore, the reason given is a red herring.

I think we were told it had not flooded in 200 years.

It had not flooded in 200 years. Exactly.

On the last occasion, we asked whether there was an estimate for the refurbishment of St. Brigid's to keep it open and to retain the palliative care beds there. To the best of my knowledge, we have not got that. I do not know why this committee keeps asking for information when it is being totally ignored. It is not committee members but members of the public who are affected by these decisions. It is an insult to them that we cannot get answers on Owenacurra, St. Brigid's and Seven Springs that we can pass on to them. For months and months, we have been looking for information and getting nothing back.

The opening statement referred to improving the understanding of the requirements for infection prevention and control. When HSE representatives appeared here before, they promised to provide us with data on how many people had suffered cross-contamination at St. Brigid's in the five years prior to closure. As far as I am aware, we have not received those data from the HSE, unless we did in the past couple of hours.

Deputy Mattie McGrath raised the matter of the €90,000 raised by St. Brigid's. When is that going to be addressed by the HSE? We have a list of stuff here and it is absolutely disheartening that we have to come back to HSE representatives over and over to try to drag information out of them. I hope they can answer some of the questions on St. Brigid's, Owenacurra and so on.

I will say no more. Does anyone else want to contribute?

I forgot to ask a question I was requested to ask by Catherine Foley, who is on the committee to reopen St. Brigid's.

She has written numerous times, with dozens of calls and emails, and there has never been a response. Why does the HSE treat the public with such disdain? I can read out her text message, versions of which she has sent dozens of times. I believe her 100%. We cannot get answers and she is a member of the public. She is the lady who did the bed push and she is very disappointed. She asked me to ask the HSE why it will not show her the courtesy of answering her dozens of letters and emails.

Another issue arose there, regarding the building programme for Clonmel and Thomastown. Are those projects still on track to be completed in 2024?

Do any other members wish to come in on St. Brigid’s?

The issue is that the hospital was open until Covid. There was no question about safety, at least that we have heard about, prior to the arrival of Covid. It was then closed and, judging by what Mr. Ryan said, the staff from St. Brigid's were redeployed into the community, if I picked him up correctly. That, to me, just suggests bad HR policies in that the HSE was not able to find staff to fill in within community care in order to keep open this vital little hospital, which was meeting the needs of the community. We heard from local residents about how families were able to spend time with their dying relatives, and somebody then coldly closed that down and said enough was enough.

Mr. Ryan makes promises about Clonmel and various other parts of Tipperary, but right now people are having to travel to Waterford, as far as I understand it, from Tipperary. To me, there is a coldness in what the HSE is offering. I am getting old and I dread the idea that I might find myself at the mercy of an organisation that has no heart. These people have been up and down to this committee over these hospitals, and I know Deputy Canney will have a lot to say about Galway, as will his colleague Geraldine Donohue. I cannot understand how a place can be operating perfectly and then, all of a sudden, an excuse is found to close it and it is gone. Promises of buildings in the future just do not wash with me. We get promises in here all the time and they mean absolutely nothing.

On that, any time we have asked about documentation, we have been told to go to the HIQA report. The HIQA report did not at any stage recommend the closure of St. Brigid's Hospital, so I do not know why the HSE keeps telling us to go to the HIQA report.

Mr. Joe Ryan

For some of this, I will be able to give responses, and I will ask my colleague Ms McDaid to come in on some of the other answers, if that is okay. Deputy McGrath asked why the hospital was suitable during Covid. During the Covid pandemic, as he will be aware, we had to make provision for spaces to accommodate people to step down out of our hospitals in anticipation that we were going to be overrun. As it happened, that did not manifest itself. It took us several months into the pandemic to appreciate fully that that was not going to happen, to some extent through the good work of colleagues but also due to good fortune that we did not have to do that.

The staff related to that were redeployed. It was not that we did not have good HR practices, as Senator Craughwell suggested, but that we needed every pair of hands we could get to help with vaccination and testing in a vast programme of work throughout the nation, as I am sure he will appreciate.

On the broader question of receiving documentation and requests for that, I will take that very much on board and examine all the requests made by the committee. I will go back with colleagues and have a look again at our responses to the committee. I am making that commitment to the Cathaoirleach as a director in the HSE.

I appreciate that but this is maybe the fourth or fifth time we have got these assurances that documentation will be given to members of our committee or members of the public, and the only thing we have got back is a redacted document. We could see about a dozen lines out of six pages and everything else was redacted.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I cannot give the committee the documentation now-----

I appreciate that but-----

Mr. Joe Ryan

-----but my commitment to the Cathaoirleach is that I will go back with colleagues and organise it.

Representatives of the HSE have again come before an Oireachtas committee. Surely they knew documentation was going to be looked for again. Why has it not been made available, even before the meeting, given they knew it was going to be asked for? All we are looking for is the likes of the minutes. As I said to Mr. Ryan on the previous occasion, everybody has an opinion. I might have an opinion about a runway at Dublin Airport, and while I cannot fly an aeroplane, my opinion, if it were out there, would affect thousands of people. Opinions of employees of the HSE who sat at a meeting have affected thousands of people throughout the country, in Galway, Cork, Tipperary and many other places. We have all sat on the likes of school boards and residents' associations. Minutes are taken of meetings, even if the meeting is about no more than sweeping a path in the street. It is unbelievable the HSE made these decisions to close places with no minutes taken of the meetings.

I will take Mr. Ryan's word that we will get the information this time, but I assure him that if we do not get it within the coming weeks, we will put in a request for the witnesses to come again before the committee and face the same grilling.

Mr. Ryan really turned himself inside out with his answer. He said issues of cross-contamination led to HIQA closing the hospital, yet the HSE was going to put in Covid patients. It beggars belief that he would give that kind of answer. If there were the potential for cross-contamination from patients with normal illnesses such as flu or whatever, surely to God we needed much more space and care in order that Covid would not be transmitted to other people.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I do not believe I am turning myself in knots. When we put people into a facility such as that, as we did in some locations throughout the country, we did not use all the beds that were there previously. We knew that when we had stepdown care, the guidance from AMRIC, our infection control committee, was that we needed 2 m between each patient.

Has Mr. Ryan ever been in St. Brigid's Hospital?

Mr. Joe Ryan

It would not have been using all the beds-----

Has he ever been in it?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I have not.

That tells me the answer. Surely Mr. Ryan would have familiarised himself with the place if he was coming in here to answer questions here about it. That is the reason the hospital did not have enough space, and the same is true of Clogheen, where a fabulous job was done with an extension. That is how little interest Mr. Ryan has. I will not ask him any more questions because he has not even visited the place. He is just coming in here to tick a box and will not give the reports, as the Chairman said. It beggars belief and it is pointless even talking to Mr. Ryan.

I fully appreciate that during Covid, the HSE did a powerful job. It did a tremendous job and I could not give the agency enough credit. I fully appreciate also that it had to divert and relocate staff into functions such as vaccination and community work, but Covid is over and those staff should have been returned to that hospital, St. Brigid's. Mr. Ryan is taking the flak here today but, as the Chairman has pointed out, this must be our third or fourth meeting here. One of the redacted pages, as I recall, had one word at the top of the page that could be read and the rest had been cut out. What sort of respect is that for the last port of call members of the public have when they are in conflict with a State organisation? We are the elected representatives of the public. We are the public voice. These people cannot hold the HSE to account.

Maybe it is unfair that Mr. Ryan is in here, given he is not familiar with the site. He cannot be familiar with every site - I accept that - but at the end of the day, somebody reports to him and he reports to somebody else. Somebody took a decision to redact that document. Somebody took the convenient decision to close St. Brigid's and said that, now the staff had been taken out of it, we should not put them back in.

I may be wrong about this, and Deputy Mattie McGrath or Deputy Canney will tell me if I am, but I recall asking the director of nursing from Tipperary, at a previous meeting, I think it was, whether there was a problem with infection control. The Cathaoirleach asked if there had been any recorded case of cross-infection. The answers were that there definitely were not. Saying, therefore, that it was necessary to close the place because of infection control just does not wash in any way.

The bottom line is that there is a community here that is 100% behind its little hospital where people are allowed to go and spend the last few days of their lives with their families around them. It is a community that cares, one willing to fundraise and that is behind the system. Somebody, somewhere, not Mr. Ryan, took a decision to close it, and that is just wrong, in every sense of the word. We must put humanity back into healthcare. It is not all about the bottom line. For God's sake, we are spending €25 billion on healthcare in this country. Surely to God, we do not have to close places down. The plan should always be to keep the community involved.

I have a question about the Minister having told one of my Dáil colleagues and Councillor Kieran Bourke that this institution would be reopened after Covid-19. Does that count for anything?

On the last question I asked concerning the beds in Clonmel and Thomastown, is a commitment being given that they will be opened in 2024?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I will pass those questions to Ms McDaid.

Ms Helen McDaid

Those units are going through the public-private partnership building programme. I have been informed that it is anticipated the Clonmel site, which is the 50-bed unit, should be finished at the end of this year, while the Thomastown unit will be finished in the middle of next year. When this building work is complete, another process must be engaged with to get out the information and ensure we are meeting infection prevention and control requirements, etc., and then comes the uplift of the staff. We continue to be on track with that.

Right. I call Deputy Canney.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to speak. I am not a member of this committee. I welcome Mattie Quinn and Pat O'Looney, who are here. Anna Cronin, the other soldier among them, is at a wedding today in County Kerry and cannot be here. I also welcome the witnesses, especially Mr. Fitzmaurice, who is new to the role of the chief officer of CHO 2.

Mr. Ryan's opening remarks concerning the Seven Springs day centre offer hope to the Loughrea concerned citizens group. Its members acknowledge that since Mr. Fitzmaurice's elevation to the chief officer position, he has taken this problem with the closure of the Seven Springs day centre and is trying to resolve it in a way that will ensure it will reopen. For me, all the members of the group and all the people who protested and met so many times, this is a ray of hope that we are at least being listened to at this stage.

I listened to the Cathaoirleach and Deputy Mattie McGrath discuss St. Brigid's hospital. In the past, things were happening in Loughrea about which questions were not being answered. We were able to find information under the freedom of information legislation which led us to say, undoubtedly, that those decisions made back then were wrong and were made by people looking for a way, a bit like Putin did with Ukraine, to try to take over territory they did not own. The sad thing about the Seven Springs day centre in Loughrea is that it was built with money from a trust and not by the HSE. The HSE then came along and said it was taking that money to put it into a community nursing unit. As advised to me by the Minister of State with special responsibility for older people, the HSE also said it was going to refurbish another facility, at a cost of €1 million, and again this money was going to come from the trust. It was like the money did not matter because it was not the HSE's. In fact, some fundraising was done locally for the Seven Springs day centre. We know people involved in the senior citizens committee who gave money towards it.

An agreement was made to run a day service in the hotel, as Mr. Fitzmaurice will know. I do not know what the cost is but it was initially only supposed to run from September to December 2022. It has now been extended to 26 October 2023. I hope that by that date HIQA will have come around to agreeing to the sensible proposal being made by Mr. Fitzmaurice and his team.

The concerned citizens group in Loughrea will work tirelessly to ensure we get the right thing done in Loughrea, for the older people in Loughrea and the entire catchment area. We are offering that support. I am also offering support as a public representative. I mention as well Councillor Geraldine Donohue, who took on this campaign when she was first alerted to it, and is still so much involved in it, as well as Councillor Shane Curley. We have now got the support of the members of the health forum, including Dr. Evelyn Parsons and the cathaoirleach of the county council, Councillor Liam Carroll, who came out to Loughrea. He considered this issue so serious that it was the first engagement he had on becoming cathaoirleach. We also have Councillor Donagh Killilea on that committee.

We are here to support him Mr. Fitzmaurice. We want to ensure we get the right conclusion to this problem as quickly as possible. We will work with him and support him to get that done. We know that he reports back, as he committed, to the concerned citizens group. It is commendable that he has done what he said he would. That is important. When we have this sorted out, the bigger issue for the HSE will be to determine how this came about, how much it has cost and how it got out of hand to such an extent that decisions were being made that were not right at all. The best thing to say now is that we will let that rest for the moment. When we hear Senator Craughwell talking about €25 billion going into the health service annually, we have a huge job on our hands to try to find out exactly how, in the name of God, we are spending this money, if we are getting value for money and to get accountability.

We had a major furore over RTÉ. The money involved there is only a pittance compared to what is going on in the HSE, if what we are hearing today is the mantra being used. In my town of Tuam, more than €30 million has been spent in recent years providing top-class accommodation. We are reopening the Grove site. The Tánaiste is coming down on Monday to reopen it. We have a brand-new community nursing unit. This again happened with the help of the Joe and Helen O'Toole charitable trust providing €7 million. There are, therefore, people in communities who wish to ensure we have the best health service and who are contributing to it. The last thing that I, as an elected politician, would like to see, however, is individuals like that being given the two fingers later and people going off and doing whatever they like. The campus at St. Brendan's is a model of how services can be run. The staff are brilliant. Everybody loves the place. Then somebody comes along and decides to destroy it. I just cannot understand how we could do this. We do not know who made the decision. The problem is that we do not have accountability.

We will work with Mr. Fitzmaurice and his team. We know the objective of the work from here on, and what he has been doing all summer, is to find a solution that everybody will be proud of and that we will all be very happy will be the right one we will do in the end.

I call Deputy Hourigan.

I do not know if the witnesses would like to address the issue raised by Deputy Canney, because I am going to move on to Owenacurra.

Does Mr. Ryan want to come back in?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I would be happy to have my colleague address the question directly, if that is okay.

Mr. John Fitzmaurice

I welcome Deputy Canney's comments and the commitment to work together. I know he will also work with Mr. Mattie Quinn and Mr. Ryan up there. As I have said, I intend to take this step by step. We spoke about a number of options the last time. Our primary focus is on the first option, which is to get Seven Springs day centre reopened as is. We have presented a proposal in that regard and are awaiting feedback and follow-up. Once I have that, I will sit down with the concerned citizens' group, representatives of the regional health forum, Deputy Canney and anyone else with an interest. We will step it out gradually. We are committed to finding a solution with the people in Loughrea. We will take that one step at a time.

Before I let Senator Craughwell in, I will ask a question. I welcome the re-examination of the position relating to Seven Springs, but no one like Mr. Fitzmaurice seems to have come on board to re-examine decisions made about Owenacurra and St. Brigid's. Why was it decided to re-examine only one of the three? As I have said, I totally welcome the decision regarding Seven Springs but each of them should be re-examined. Why was one area picked? I will not say it was picked out of the three. When there is so much concern and when the HSE is working with the public regarding Seven Springs, I am sure committees in Carrick-on-Suir and Owenacurra would have loved the same interaction as was seen in respect of Seven Springs. Why was it decided to re-examine the decision on Seven Springs? On the previous occasion we were left with the impression that it was a lost cause, just as the witnesses are now telling us the others are.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I will ask my colleague to respond on Seven Springs but there was no decision to pick one out of three. We look at every individual situation based on its own context.

As I said, that was the wrong wording. It was not that one was pitted against the others but there was a decision made to re-examine-----

Mr. Joe Ryan

I will ask John to give the reasoning behind the decision.

Mr. John Fitzmaurice

Circumstances have changed in the last 12 months. We can be thankful that the Covid pandemic has not had the same impact. From a community perspective, we have also had service developments in terms of programmes such as integrated care programmes for older people through which we have extended community provision, allowing us to re-examine the way we deliver our services. Within that, we are looking at a bed configuration within St. Brendan's that would allow for a focus on maintaining people and supporting them to stay at home. That presents an opportunity to remodel the way we do our services. Like everything, we are looking at through a fresh lens and trying to find a solution together. We have looked at how we could potentially remodel internally as well. That is part of our solution. St. Brendan's was mentioned. It is a phenomenal and fantastic site that is very important to the people of Loughrea. What we are now trying to do is to maximise the use of the resources that are there. We want it to become a site for older people that is a standard bearer. My team and the older persons team within our CHO are committed to that. I can certainly say that developments within the community as regards enhancing community care and integrated care programmes for older people have allowed us to re-examine the potential for this development.

I will ask about one other thing. The last time the witnesses were in, there was mention of the old workhouse possibly being refurbished but this was not mentioned in the opening statement. Is that now off the table?

Mr. John Fitzmaurice

No, it is not. It is part of the older persons well-being hub we talked about. However, it is parked at the moment because we need to go through the options we have discussed. Our primary focus is on getting the day service open as is. We would still like to look at the old workhouse as part of a wider service development for older people in Loughrea but the first priority is getting the day service open as is. If we cannot do so, we will have to go back and look at the other options. However, this would be part of a wider development rather than an alternative. It is not off the table but it is parked until we work through the steps one by one, as discussed.

The witnesses get a hard time from us when they come in here but I have to say, when we were talking about Loughrea, Mr. Ryan and Mr. Fitzmaurice gave me hope. Clearly, Deputy Canney has been leading on this with Councillor Geraldine Donohue for quite some time. He has offered tremendous leadership. It really gives great hope that the HSE is now looking at this through a fresh lens and that there may be opportunities to change configurations in order to get the place open. St. Brigid's has been a part of Loughrea since Adam was a boy. The people are very committed to that particular establishment. It is a lovely place. The scenery is beautiful. It has everything going for it. If you had to spend time somewhere in your elder years, it would be a lovely place to do so. I am really grateful to the witnesses for taking the time to go back and look at this again to see if there was a way forward.

Mr. Ryan is leading today. As we look at these organisations or little hubs around the country that give great service to their local communities, if they are coming under the spotlight for reconfiguration, closing down or whatever, should we not engage with the local community and sit down and talk to them? Deputy Canney has pointed out that €7 million was raised through a trust fund in Tuam. Local people, entrepreneurs with money, are willing to put money into their communities. Fellas like Deputy Canney will meet these people, get money out of them and organise local groups. Councillor Donohue did it in Loughrea. People will work with the community to keep what is precious to them open. I have met people from Tipperary and their hearts are breaking at the thought of losing that little hospital. We really need to work with communities. I will just tell Deputy Canney that the budget is €25 billion rather than €52 billion. It might get €52 billion next week, but €25 billion is an awful lot of money. It must be the highest budget in the country but, on top of that, there is voluntary money coming.

Mr. Ryan is first and foremost in taking the flak here today, but I ask him to speak to whoever sent the documentation to us and tell them that we are not total idiots altogether and that we are capable people. If there are issues with the general data protection regulation, we can handle those by having an in camera meeting. We do not have to go public if very sensitive data are involved. The committee can agree to do that. Mr. Ryan should ask these officials not to annoy committees when dealing with them and not to create a situation whereby people want to come in, grandstand and shout and roar. All we want to see is the HSE working with the community. Fair play to Mr. Fitzmaurice on what he is doing in going back to look at it again. If it works out, it works out. If it does not, at least he will be working with the community. The community will find a way of working with him. That is all I really want to say on it. I thank Deputy Canney and Councillor Donohue for their leadership on the issue and I thank Mr. Fitzmaurice for picking up the can and running with it. Let us see where it goes.

Is Deputy Canney happy?

Yes, I am happy for Deputy Hourigan to begin.

Does Mr. Ryan wish to respond?

Mr. Joe Ryan

We certainly appreciate the comments. The CEO is committed to working with communities and to involving them in our development of services. As we move towards the regions, accountability will be pushed even closer to local operations in a much more substantial way than it is today. The centre of the HSE will become a lighter influence on things. That is a positive step. It was envisaged in Sláintecare and it is being delivered. The CEO is determined to deliver that. It will change the nature of things and we will see much more of the kind of the local engagement that has been enjoyed in the west. We will look at the documentation and the responses. I give the Chair my commitment on that.

One or two little issues came up. On infection control and there not having been a case, we have to go on the guidelines given. We have to stay within those. When those guidelines are adjusted, as they were post pandemic, it changes the standards and formats as regards what we can set up within hospital and community spaces.

It is based on the risk of transmission rather than the history of transmission. We have to take that advice. If we do not, and someone is harmed then we will be back here accounting for something more serious.

I thank the Chair for letting me in, as this is not my usual committee. I also thank the witnesses for appearing today. I will start by saying that over the past 18 months the Owenacurra issue has been before the Joint Committee on Health, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health. It is a little disheartening to hear the witness citing the Mental Health Commission report. The Mental Health Commission has been before the Oireachtas about that particular report, and it was clear that it made no recommendation for closure. They also cited the building reports, because we have had no independent recommendation for closure or statement that there cannot be a retrofit. Until 2019, there were a number of reports providing options for upgrades, but the Department did not instigate those.

I will begin by going back to what has happened to the people for whom Owenacurra was their home. I went with the Joint Committee on Health to Owenacurra and met people and walked the building. Those who have campaigned to keep Owenacurra open have always emphasised that the decision on closure was not based on the best interests of the residents, and that it would affect a broader cohort of people in east Cork. It removed those beds from east Cork and there were no similar beds, and there are still no similar beds, in east Cork. I will start with that question of putting patients at the heart of the service. We know that Owenacurra stopped taking new referrals in February 2021. That was a few months prior to the closure announcement. A decision had obviously been made there, but we know that from the building reports anyway. We know this group of people have a high need and are often in the most severe levels of distress. They are often in precarious circumstances or living with elderly parents. We also know that a number of the cohort have been placed in nursing homes because there is no local community mental health placement option for them. That is unsuitable for them. They also often have to avail of short-term respite. One of my chief concerns in terms of mental health for a number of clients in the east Cork area, which I have raised through parliamentary questions, is that they have been placed in out of area residential mental health facilities or nursing homes, since Owenacurra centre stopped taking referrals in 2021. It is a relatively small number of clients, but I would like to start by getting an update from the witnesses. They probably have it because I keep asking these parliamentary questions. What is now happening to people in east Cork who need a full-time, long-term residential mental health service? What happens to people in east Cork now that Owenacurra is not taking any more residents?

Mr. Joe Ryan

My colleague, Ms O'Donovan, who is the chief officer of Cork and Kerry can address that in detail. However, in the first instance, the model of care is changing and we are trying to move to delivering as much service as we can in people's homes, and providing residential services where needed. The model of care has shifted from what it was in the past. That is at the national level. What we see with Owenacurra and the solution my colleague will now talk about, is how we are going to try to address the needs of the population in accordance with the new models of care we need to move to.

I want to say something before Ms O'Donovan comes in. I appreciate what Mr. Ryan is saying, but the incidents we have seen in Owenacurra and St. Brigid's especially, moving people back to care in their homes is moving people farther away from their families.

Owenacurra has been raised by more than one person, including Deputy Hourigan on several occasions. We have raised the issue of St. Brigid's District Hospital in Carrick-on-Suir, County Tipperary. Clogheen is 40 minutes' drive away. St. Teresa's is that distance away from Carrick-on-Suir with no public transport. It is hard to say they are trying to bring care back into people's homes. That is not possible for most of the families we are talking about given the age of the people concerned. Instead of keeping them in a community where, as Senator Craughwell has said, families are at least within walking distance they are suddenly put 40 km or 40 minutes drive away with no public transport. A lot of the families do not have cars. It is hard to accept the witnesses are trying to do what they say they are.

Mr. Joe Ryan

My colleagues may address some of those concerns.

I will give some context to reiterate the question. I have other questions about what happened to the people who were living in Owenacurra. Since it was decided that Owenacurra is not now a viable option there would be a cohort of, I suspect, between 15 and 20 people in east Cork who needed those options. Those are not now on the table. There was also a cohort who never stepped through the door of Owenacurra, or who were perhaps making use of intermittent respite beds, and then would have needed long-term residency. Where have those people been put?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

I thank the committee for inviting me. To be fair, the issue is the residents and how we manage them, which is the key concern for everybody. We are looking at a cohort of patients with enduring mental health difficulties. It can be quite public because Midleton, County Cork, is a small area. In terms of the residents who were moved, we have beds but they are not always in the right place. That is a known situation. People's needs were looked at one by one, and that is where the placements arose and I absolutely take on board what the Deputy is saying. There can be a distance to travel. However, we work to try to get all of the people applying for this type of care, whether the fair deal scheme or this type of patient, to a location that is their preference. We might not get there straight away-----

Is that location in east Cork?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

We do not have an entirety of beds, so people have been scattered. That is acceptable for me-----

I am sorry. I am trying to be accurate and I do not mean to cut across Ms O'Donovan. How many beds are available in east Cork now?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

In terms of mental health facilities?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

East Cork falls under the north Lee catchment area. There are 36 beds-----

No, that is north Cork.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

East Cork falls under that mental health catchment area.

That was not the case until 2021, was it?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No, but we have invested-----

East Cork and north Cork were separate. North Cork had 36 beds and east Cork had 20 beds. Now, east Cork has no beds and we are considering it part of north Cork.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

I return to the point about the evolving model of care. There are community teams in place. There is 24-hour cover for community access. That is equally a part of the model.

I fully support the community model. I fully support people staying in their home as long as possible with their family. There will always be a small cohort of people who need 24 hour care in a much more supportive community. We had 20 places in east Cork. Are we now saying that not only do we have no beds in east Cork, but we do not even recognise east Cork as a separate entity to north Cork?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

In terms of east Cork, the plan is for a ten bed unit to be developed on the site in Owenacurra.

We will come to that.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

That gives us the capacity back, but it has to be within the model of mental health services where residential is part of that but not the only part. We now have a psychiatry of older life in post to support the ageing adult with mental health difficulties, because that is a particular specialty. We also have a rehab consultant. There has been investment in terms of the overall service being provided in that geographical area.

I will move on to the safety and quality committee of the HSE board, which met in February 2023 to discuss the Owenacurra closure. This is more about those residents who were in Owenacurra. The minutes of that meeting stated: "Some members of the Committee expressed dissatisfaction with the need to transfer the residents away from the Midleton area contrary to their expressed wishes." That is what the Chair brought up. The minutes also stated:

The Committee raised concerns regarding placements to St. Stephen’s Hospital, Glanmire and St. Catherine’s Ward in St. Finbarr’s Hospital, Cork as these centres had received lower Mental Health Commission inspection compliance ratings than the Owenacurra Centre. Concerns were expressed that these environments are congregated settings that are campus based, isolated, away from the community in contravention of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Government policy and HSE policy as set out in Time to Move on from Congregated Settings - A Strategy for Community Inclusion.

We know that the two Owenacurra residents were transferred to long-stay wards in St. Stephen's hospital where they were sharing rooms at least initially. One resident was transferred to St. Catherine's ward where they were also sharing a room. Those arrangements may have changed since, and Ms O'Donovan cannot talk about individual cases, but the trend can be seen where we are being told in these sessions that the patient is at the centre of the decision-making and we are moving towards this new policy.

However, in practice, when following the thread of what actually happened to people when essentially an estates capital budget decision around a building was made, that falls down. One of the wards in St. Stephen’s, unit 3, was among the most strongly criticised of any inspection report by the Mental Health Commission that I have ever seen, and I have read a lot of inspection reports over the past year. How are we justifying moving people from Owenacurra, which absolutely was a building in need of significant work, into severely congregated settings away from families and communities? How did we make a differentiation between the people who were moved to that situation or to nursing homes and the six people who remain in Owenacurra? Can somebody explain that to me? I am not asking about individual cases rather I am asking about the decision hierarchy. Who was making that decision?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

The process in respect of patients was individual with the consultant and the multidisciplinary team.

It can be seen from the minutes that the clinical team was very unhappy.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

Yes. It comes back to 2022, which the Deputy will be aware of, and a strategic plan around capital development in mental health services. None of us want a congregated setting. I think we are all in agreement there. There is a plan for Sarsfield Court to have five separate ten-bedded units – single en suite facility – with supports for people, but not to be in a congregated setting. I know there is a lot of anxiety regarding placement in St. Stephen’s and the history there. There is probably disquiet. On neutralising that-----

Sorry, I want to be accurate. It is not public anxiety or my anxiety. It is contravention of international policy, Government policy and HSE policy. It is not anxiety.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No, but concerns on utilisation of St. Stephen’s site for mental health supports are being raised with my office. We are talking about a different model. We are talking about a purpose-built facility, not what we currently have. That is the best direction to travel. There will always be an element of patients who will require residential care. We need to purpose-build our facilities that are age-attuned, whether it is older persons or persons with mental health difficulties. There will be a development on site. A capital development in Owenacurra for ten beds is with estates at the moment – again, purpose built for residential respite as part of the overall management. I think that is an update from the previous committee meeting, when that information was not available. To be able to secure a ten-bedded unit is positive for Midleton because of everything that has been said at this committee about how good the environment in Midleton is for individuals who have enduring mental health difficulties. The day centre has moved into a temporary accommodation but, equally, we will look at a permanent facility for the day services centred around Midleton, where the people have been living for most of their life.

This might be for Ms O’Donovan or it might be for somebody else. Where there is a set of decision-making around estates and capital funding and a set of decision-making around care plans and clinical governance, it seems to be obvious from the minutes that clinical professionals are articulating their unhappiness with decisions and saying that it is not in line with care plans and will not be good for their particular patients. Is there some kind of formal weighting as to who wins that argument? If estates say there is a problem with the building and the clinical professionals say that closing a particular building will create a significant and serious difficulty for a patient’s care plan, who wins? How is that navigated? I suppose it speaks to the Chair's issue around minutes. This is opaque. It seems to us on this side that estates won every one of those arguments.

Mr. Joe Ryan

We will always act as best we can in the best interest of any patient or service user within the timing available to us. The clinical design of any facility is paramount. The difficult decision relating to Owenacurra is that we have to start somewhere. We have to start to make that move. To invest further in the building, clearly we have to rely on the experts. Our estates department is populated with architectural engineering surveying expertise, and when it does not have enough of that, it will bring it in. We will always look at best practice in respect of the facilities. We looked at the Owenacurra building and to keep investing in what was a prefabricated 1970s structure would not have been a good longer term use of public money, investing and getting the right answer. We have to make that difficult decision to ask people to move out of the facility to allow us to reinvest in it. In each individual case, we did our best to find the most appropriate available accommodation. It is not a case of who wins. We have to make difficult decisions sometimes to get a longer term benefit by having a better service. We are constantly trying to invest in building better services. We are not taking away things just for the sake of it. It is about getting to a point. In an ideal case, we would be able to build something right beside it and then move everybody when it is ready. That would be assuming that is the model of care. The new model of care is a different one and, therefore, the facility needs to be fit for that purpose.

Will the residents moved outside east Cork be given the opportunity to move back to Midleton when the property plan there is finished?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

Each case is reviewed constantly. As we get vacancies, we will, as far as we can, try to accommodate. The patient needs can be determined. Absolutely, no matter what service I am dealing with, if a patient is out of their area or county, we work hard to try to accommodate and try to bring them back. Capacity can be a limiting factor but sometimes it can be the care need of individuals and not every facility, as we all know, can manage some of the care needs. It would be in the best interest of the patient and the family to have them near to home. That is what we want for ourselves and our community, and that is what we need to strive to. However, equally-----

If Ms O’Donovan does not my mind me saying, that does not sound like an absolute right. Let us say a person was moved out of Owenacurra last year and now that person is in north Cork. We will come to the timing of the new building, which, very ambitiously, will be in maybe 2026 or 2027. That person is now in north Cork for at least four to five years. Let us say there is somebody else, as we have just talked about, in that cohort who has not been able to go into Owenacurra since 2021. That person will have been living in east Cork for five years. If it is that kind of a mediated nuanced right, then I think most people would say the person who has been living in east Cork for the past five years will get the place over the person who was moved out of Owenacurra. Does the person who was moved out of Owenacurra have the right to move back?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

Again, the Deputy will be familiar with waiting lists and people putting their name down for a setting or place they wish to move to. In this case, people do settle. There is an assessment made as the beds will come on stream. The original cohort is a prioritised group. However, they may have settled and if they have, it does not become an issue. We have a waiting list. We have waiting lists for all our community facilities, including mental health, and we work our way through. Many of the decisions come down to the care needs of the individual and whether that care can be provided in the location near them, and sometimes it cannot.

In was mentioned in the opening statement that the CEO, Mr. Bernard Gloster, visited Owenacurra in July. He met with Councillor Liam Quade and me on this issue as well. I welcome that. I cannot do that on behalf of the residents and families but I know they were very glad he made the commitment to visit. I am sure they looked forward to meeting him. A number of residents were not informed of his visit. I am wondering why that might have been. I know Mr. Gloster met with a contingent of managers. Were all families informed? Could the witnesses give us a commitment that all families of Owenacurra were informed that he was visiting?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

The arrangements for the CEO are a matter for his office. He came to see the environment and meet clients there. There is a further follow-up correspondence and a follow-up that needs to issue directly to the Deputy on representations she has made, and I am sure there will be room again for more visits, as the diary allows. The purpose of the CEO’s visit was for the CEO to see the area because he had not seen it. He wanted to reassure himself that we in Cork Kerry community healthcare, CKCH, were appropriate in how we were managing the issue. That was the purpose of the meeting.

To be clear, was it his office that extended an invitation to the relevant people in Owenacurra?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

If the CEO comes to an area, the CEO advises that office. In this case, he advised my office because he was coming to Cork-Kerry.

So it was Ms O’Donovan’s office that was inviting families.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

Yes.

Were all families invited?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No. This was not a meeting with families. This was a meeting for the CEO, newly appointed to the organisation, to understand what was happening-----

Was it to deal with managers, not families?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

-----at Owenacurra. On the day the CEO met patients who were happy to meet with him.

Okay. How was it decided who was happy to meet with him?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

Sorry, it was the patients who were on site, because people were out and about. We said to those who were there, "The CEO is here. Would you be happy to have a word?" That is what happened.

So it was not-----

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It was not a formal visit. It was a CEO, like myself, new to the organisation. When I started I went to see CAMHS and Owenacurra because these are the areas requiring considerable attention. It was no different from that in terms of someone coming into the centre.

Okay, so there was no formal invitation to families.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No.

Did Mr. Gloster visit St. Stephen's Hospital while he was in the area?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No, he did not. To be fair, Mr. Gloster has a great many meetings and we hope we can get him to St. Stephen's Hospital as soon as possible, but his diary will determine that.

I have a couple more questions, if that is all right with the Cathaoirleach. I have submitted some parliamentary questions on the new proposals for the ten-bed service in Midleton. I have been told repeatedly that building is expected to commence in quarter 1 of 2024 and that the construction will be completed in quarter 1 of 2025. There is no capital funding assigned to those projects. There is no site identified. As far as I can tell, there is no development team or design team appointment. Where are we with that? Is that very ambitious?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It is ambitious but a design team has been appointed. The proposals are finalised and are with the national estates. There is no further update. I checked before coming here whether I had an update for the committee. However, I am happy to respond once-----

There is a design team appointed. Is there a site?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

The site is Owenacurra itself.

There is no funding though.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

No, it is going through the capital process so it is with the national estates for consideration. That is where we are, just as with any other project. I do not have an update today but when I do, I will update the committee.

Can we get a timeline on when that update can be expected? How long does it take for that kind of capital funding process?

Mr. Joe Ryan

We are currently in the annual planning process. Those discussions are ongoing at the moment. We await-----

What is the timeline on them?

Mr. Joe Ryan

We await next week's budget. The letter of determination will follow that along with the capital allocations.

Does it take four months or maybe six months to decide the priorities for the next year?

Mr. Joe Ryan

No, it does not. That will be done between now and the end of the year.

Okay, so by Christmas it might be decided that Owenacurra is the one to move forward with. Then, is the design team appointed and the tender process begun?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

The design team is-----

Mr. Joe Ryan

The design team is there.

Okay, so then the tender process begins.

Mr. Joe Ryan

Then we are into the tender process. We have an efficient tender process. It is much slicker than it used to be.

By my calculations, the target of 2024 for tender and planning is ambitious. It will be mid-2025 to get all that out of the way followed by the commencement works. Are we looking at 2027 as a very ambitious date for a new facility?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

I am not in a position-----

Mr. Joe Ryan

I do not think we have the answer to that. We will certainly come back to the Deputy with an answer when we consult with the estates team.

We would love to see that.

Finally, I want to go back to St. Stephen's Hospital. I visited the hospital which was interesting because it really is a campus. It takes a while to get to. I am not used to the wilds of Cork. Will the witnesses expand on the proposed 50-bed continuing care rehabilitation facility? It will be bungalow-style residences. Having been there, it seems a very isolated, albeit a beautiful, leafy campus. It also seems very medicalised. It is right beside the hospital. There is an elective hospital planned for there too.

My understanding is that there was a long-running strategy to move patients out of St. Stephen's to community residences in Mallow, Fermoy and Kanturk. That whole idea of community integration and A Vision for Change was to move people away from that site. It now seems that with the 50 beds, in the context of 34 beds in north Cork and none in east Cork, the plan is to centralise those placements for a wide catchment area in this very cut-off hospital campus. I do not understand. I have gone through this with other committees. There is a discussion around how long people would stay but it seems to run counter to Sharing the Vision and A Vision for Change.

The estimated cost of the some of the other projects in the area is considerable. In terms of the HSE’s national budget and having to make those kinds of decisions, will the witnesses expand on the plans for the 50-bed continuing care facility? How much do they expect to spend on these new facilities? How long is it expected that people might stay in these facilities? Why would that money not be directed to 24-hour staff or to community integrated services in towns such as Midleton? This is not particularly about Owenacurra. We could see them in Clonakilty, Bandon, Cobh and Youghal. They do not exist in any of those place right now. Why is a very expensive 50-bed unit the priority, rather than anything else?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It is working to make sure people can live in their communities as far as possible, so it is not either-or. The efforts are ongoing throughout Cork and Kerry in terms of trying to get property that people with a disability or mental health difficulties can remain in their own community. That can be a slow process. We have, of course, a cohort of patients. There are 87 beds in the four units in Sarsfieldscourt and 21 dementia-specific beds. We are all aware of the increasing difficulties in terms of dementia. There are particular mental health cases that will need that specific type of accommodation. We are trying to future-proof in regard to what we are doing. That is why the 50 beds have come around. We currently have 87 beds across four units and 21 dementia beds. We have to look at how we manage that cohort of patients with the closure of Our Lady's, many of whom have been there for a considerable length of time. Therefore we are looking at how we can manage that.

In regard to budgetary issues and costings, I will come back to the Deputy on that. There is a great deal of information exchange in relation to parliamentary questions but I am happy to come back and respond separately in regard to Sarsfieldscourt, the costings and the plan. I assure the Deputy that it is not either-or. It is not replacing what we want to do where patients are best served in their own community. That is equally part of what we are doing. It is not just all going to end in a 50-bed unit in Sarsfieldscourt because that is not good for anyone.

I thank Ms O'Donovan. I would appreciate a tabulated response on that because, with the best will in the world, we can have all these policies but when money comes into play matters are prioritised. If a 50-bed unit is prioritised over a decongregated setting of maybe four or five people, which we all know is a costly model, then we would be doing people a disservice.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his patience and thank the witnesses.

I have a couple of points on Owenacurra and some on St. Brigid's. In the opening statement, the HSE referred to a plan to provide a ten-bed purpose-built rehabilitative residential unit in Midleton. Where does that stand? Has funding been ring-fenced for that project? When is it due to be completed?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

We were just talking about that. That is the unit that will be in Owenacurra itself. We have a design team and are waiting for the national estates to deliberate.

Is the money ring-fenced?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It has to go through a process nationally in terms of the estates process to put money in place.

So there is no guarantee.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It will not be for the want of effort. We are going to keep pushing for it on our side.

Going back to something Mr. Ryan said, that it could not be done on the site of Owenacurra, I spent 35 years in construction and there were many buildings where they had a lack of services. I remember Tallaght nurses' hospital. That was built up while all the services went on right beside it in the same building. This idea that you cannot keep building or that you need to clear everything out, does not wash with me.

Deputy Hourigan raised the issue of St. Stephen’s hospital. Mr. Bernard Gloster said he went down because of concerns about Owenacurra. Returning to Deputy Pat Buckley, who asked us to raise the following point. Under the HSE safety and quality committee in February of this year, concerns were raised about St. Stephen’s hospital and St. Catherine’s outpatient department. When he was down to look at Owenacurra amid all the talk about moving St. Stephen’s, Mr. Gloster must surely have had concerns about St. Stephen’s, as they had been raised.

Why did he not go and check out St. Stephen's hospital when he was down there given the concerns about moving patients out there?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I cannot speak for the CEO as regards his visits and calendar but I will certainly bring back that comment to him. The CEO spends a lot of time going around the country to many sites.

I appreciate that but he went to Cork to see the Owenacurra centre from where people are being moved. They are being moved to St. Stephen's and St. Finbarr's hospitals. Surely as CEO, when he was checking Owenacurra centre, he should have visited the places to which patients were being moved as well, especially when concerns had been raised about those two hospitals?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I cannot answer for the CEO but I will certainly bring that comment back to him.

Deputy Hourigan raised this issue and Deputy Buckley has asked us to raise it. Is there coercion involved in patients being moved? The last time Deputy Buckley raised this issue the representatives of the HSE who were here would not even consider to it. They reckoned that coercion was not even a possibility. Some members of the committee expressed dissatisfaction with the need to transfer the residents away from the Midleton area, contrary to their express wishes. That is coercion, no matter what way one looks at it, if patients are being moved out against their wishes.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It behoves all of us to ensure there is not even a semblance of coercion or that it is even discussed. There is clinical input. There are discussions with the patients and families to try to agree, if possible, where suitable care can be provided. Residents are part of the decision-making process. Three residents are going to move into a house that is currently being refurbished in the town of Midleton. They are agreeing to go there. Nobody is being forced. They will get to decide what paint they want on the walls and what decorations they want in the environment they are going in to. That is the model.

I have already referred to the fact that we have people in beds that are out of the area, and that is a difficulty with their care needs, in some cases, but there is no coercion. We cannot coerce patients.

In this report from the committee, members express dissatisfaction because patients are being moved against their express wishes and Ms O'Donovan is saying they are not.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

This is a very serious issue in terms of commentary, where we seem to be moving patients against their will. That is not happening. We may not be able to get the first choice preference for an individual but we are working with the families and the patients to try to work through that.

Who sat on the HSE safety and quality committee?

Ms Tess O'Donovan

It is a sub-committee of the board.

It is not anybody in here or the campaign group.

I met the residents of the Owenacurra centre. A number of them told me they do not want to lose their home. They have lived there for seven, eight, ten and 15 years, in some cases. I do not think it is a secret that people did not want to leave. I am not using the word "coercion" but I am simply saying that this suggestion that people did not mind leaving their home is false. They knew the staff and the staff knew their families. I am not using that word but I just want to be clear.

Will the HSE guarantee those patients who are not moving that they will be allowed back? I do not want to put words in Ms O'Donovan's mouth but the answer she gave suggests the patients are going to move them in any case. The attitude seems to be that they will be fine wherever they are put and a new cohort will come into Owenacurra centre when it reopens. They will be moved and the HSE will not revisit the matter.

Ms Tess O'Donovan

I hope that is not the impression the Chair took from what I said. In the intervening period, there will be change. Everyone is ageing and health needs come into play. Once the beds come on-stream, the residents who were there would like to be back. We will work with them in terms of their needs. It will depend on their care needs and the assessment at that point in time and what their will and preference is. Some people can settle in easily. We often see that after a period of time some people do settle. Whatever the condition, if anyone is looking to come to a certain area for their care, we will do what we can to enable that.

St. Brigid's Hospital had three palliative care, two respite and 11 convalescent beds. How many beds are now in place in Tipperary to replace those taken from St. Brigid's? Ms Susan Mullins appeared before the committee in July. Since that time, things have become a lot worse in her view regarding the provision of healthcare, especially in respect of care at the step-down facilities. She made the point that people who do not have a spouse or a child would like stay in their community rather than go elsewhere. The lack of public transport and the capacity problems being experienced by private nursing homes, along with higher costs, have resulted in closures. At the end of March, more than 6,400 people were on the waiting list for new additional home support care. Considering all of this, are the witnesses fully convinced that the HSE is actually in a position to close down facilities? As all the reports say, and the Government keeps telling us, we have an ageing population. Despite this, we are closing down the likes of St. Brigid's Hospital and the Owenacurra centre and forcing people into private nursing homes.

Mr. Joe Ryan

Regarding the specifics around the beds, I will ask Ms McDaid to respond to that.

Ms Helen McDaid

We have four locations across south Tipperary. In total, they are delivering 137 beds, of which 86 are long-term beds, 21 are rehabilitation beds and the remainder are short-term beds. This includes 19 transitional care beds, five respite beds and six palliative care beds. That is in line with what was being delivered. We originally had six beds being delivered. There is the same complement of beds delivered in south Tipperary as there was when St. Brigid's closed. At a previous committee meeting, I made a commitment that we will have a minimum of two beds in the new build. That will raise the complement of palliative care beds to two and raise the complement across south Tipperary to seven beds. On 18 September last, a meeting took place between local stakeholders and the interest groups. As outlined in the statement, a follow-up meeting is scheduled for 23 October. The purpose of this meeting is to move forward on the level 2 palliative care beds that we had delivered in south Tipperary.

It is also worth noting that an additional 555 beds are being delivered through private nursing homes. As of this morning, there were 25 beds available there. We have also purchased private respite beds in two private nursing homes, one of which is based in Carrick-on-Suir. We have full complementary occupancy of that across a 12-month period and we can step up and step down what the profile of that bed is.

Thank you. Does Mr. Ryan wish to make a closing statement?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I thank the Chair for his time and the questions. We have some actions that we need to follow up on in order to give the committee some answers to questions and also to review the documentation requests.

As said earlier, if we do not get them this time, we will have you back here again because this is the third or fourth time that we have asked. I appreciate what the witnesses have told us and we will take them at their word.

I thank Mr. Ryan, Mr. Fitzmaurice, Ms O'Donovan and Ms McDaid for appearing before the committee. We found this meeting very beneficial. Hopefully, some of the issues raised can be resolved. I also thank our visitors from Silver Springs, the Owenacurra centre and St. Brigid's Hospital, who are in the Public Gallery.

Sitting suspended at 3.09 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.

Due to the lack of a quorum, we have to defer consideration of petitions until our meeting on 19 October, when we will discuss all the petitions that were before us today.

I thank Ms Karen Bebbington, Ms Barbara Hughes, Mr. Alex Alino and all the staff for the work they do to make the chairing of these meetings and the committee itself so easy-flowing. There is no other business so the meeting is adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.31 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 19 October 2023.
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