Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2013

Mobility and Motorised Transport Allowances: Discussion

We are now in public session. I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off for the duration of this meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even when in silent mode. We have in the Visitors Gallery today representatives of the centres for independent living and disability rights campaigners. Questions have been submitted by them and by the Disability Federation of Ireland. Their concerns and questions about the issues under discussion today have been circulated to all members and to the witnesses, who are senior officials of the Department of Health. I welcome Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin, Secretary General of the Department of Health, who is accompanied by Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick, assistant secretary, and Ms Gráinne Duffy, principal officer. Dr. McLoughlin is in attendance to discuss the decision to end the mobility allowance scheme, the motorised transport grant and other matters arising out of the Ombudsman's evidence to the joint committee.

Before commencing, I must remind witnesses of the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or rule of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Dr. McLoughlin to make his opening remarks.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for their invitation to appear before them again today regarding the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grants schemes.

I will attempt to answer any questions members may have on the schemes. It would be helpful to have some opening remarks to aid discussions. As the Minister and the Minister of State outlined to the joint committee on 6 February last, the motorised transport grant and mobility allowance were established on an administrative basis in good faith and with the best intentions in 1968 and 1979, respectively, to meet mobility and transport needs for a particular group of people with severe physical difficulties.

I am sorry to interrupt but copies of Dr. McLoughlin's speech have not been circulated. If they have been then I do not have a copy.

I do not have a copy.

We will circulate copies. I am sorry for interrupting Dr. McLoughlin.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The transport and mobility needs of these individuals were not adequately catered for at that time, although there have been significant developments since. As the Ministers stated on that day, were we to design a solution to meet the mobility and transport needs of people with physical, sensory, intellectual and mental health disabilities today, it is extremely unlikely that we would establish schemes of this type.

The Ombudsman recommended that the Department of Health revise both schemes to make them compliant with the Equal Status Acts by removing the age limit and using a broader definition of disability in respect of eligibility for both schemes. It has proven extremely difficult to resolve this matter. Several policy options have been considered in detail. These have raised significant issues, including the feasibility of extending eligibility under the schemes.

As was outlined at the previous hearing before the joint committee, the best data available to the Department indicate that the cost of such an extension could be as much as €100 million per annum in the case of mobility allowance and €200 million over a three year period in the case of the motorised transport grant. In that context, the Department considered the possible expansion of the eligibility criteria within the current budget of €10.6 million. However, given the number of people who would then be eligible, the resultant payments would be so reduced as to make them almost meaningless. The Government came to the conclusion that an extension of either scheme would create serious financial pressure on the health budget in the current climate and be unsustainable.

It is important also to emphasise that the Department of Health accepts the position taken by the Ombudsman on this matter. Her position on how these schemes have been operated is clear. I acknowledge the inequalities in the schemes as they have operated. I acknowledge the fact that schemes under the auspices of the Department must comply with the Equal Status Acts. I also acknowledge that it would have been preferable if these issues had been addressed before now. However, I must also acknowledge that the possible additional costs - direct and indirect - of expanding the eligibility criteria for the schemes are completely unaffordable without very significant additional funding, which is not available, or by cutting already scarce health and personal social services to people with disabilities, older people and those with mental health difficulties. Clearly, that is not an action we were prepared to take.

I assure the committee that the Department has made many efforts to resolve the difficulties without imposing undue hardship on those who have been reliant on the supports. This has been at the centre of the Department’s efforts to find a solution which would be financially affordable and legally sound. However, despite these efforts, the risks to the State as identified by very strong legal advice were too great. The Government, therefore, reluctantly made the decision to close the schemes to further applications with effect from close of business on 26 February last.

It is important to outline for the information of the committee the full details of the Government’s decision. The mobility allowance and motorised transport grant have been closed to any further applications with effect from close of business on the day of the Government’s decision. The mobility allowance will continue to be paid for a further four months in respect of those already in receipt or those whose application has already been received and who are found to qualify. The motorised transport grant will also be paid to those whose applications have already been received and who are found to qualify. No further applications will be accepted for either scheme. At present, up to 4,700 people are in receipt of a mobility allowance payment and will continue to be until the four month period has elapsed. A total of 300 people each year had been in receipt of a motorised transport grant up to the date of closure of the scheme.

The Minister and the Minister of State have instructed the Department of Health to lead a review of the issues and to seek a solution or solutions as to how best to meet the mobility and transport needs of all those who require support, within the budget available. A review group has now been established for that purpose and met for the first time on Thursday, 21 February. Both the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, attended the meeting and outlined the complexities of the issues now faced. The group is independently chaired by Ms Sylda Langford and includes representatives of people with disabilities, relevant Departments and State agencies, including the HSE and the National Disability Authority. The membership includes those who can best assist in designing a solution, and additional input will be sought from others if required. The group is meeting again tomorrow afternoon.

It has been agreed that the group will work in a number of stages, commencing as a priority, led by the Department of Health, with a review of the issues around the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant and devising an appropriate solution. Once this first phase has been completed, the group will continue its work under the leadership of the most appropriate Department to examine wider issues around transport for persons with disabilities.

As part of the initial stage of the review, the Health Service Executive will examine the circumstances of all those currently benefiting from the schemes to ensure the identified solutions will encompass their priority mobility needs. In addition, the HSE has been instructed to contact each individual who has been in receipt of the payments to notify him or her of the Government’s decision and the actions now being taken.

I assure the committee that the closure of the schemes is not an action the Government wanted to take and the decision was not taken lightly. The Government considered every possible configuration to keep the schemes in payment. This included an option of allowing those in receipt of the mobility allowance to retain it on a more permanent basis and to close the scheme to new entrants. However, the Government was advised that this would be legally unsound. We asked if the scheme could be redesigned. Again, the advice was that this would be legally unsound, in particular as regards the very broad definition of disability in the Equal Status Acts. It would not be possible to state that only one category of people with disabilities could continue to receive the allowance while others who are included under the definition of disability in the Equal Status Acts could not.

The Department of Health, the Minister, Minister of State and the Government are aware of the significant concerns the closure of the schemes has brought. It is in that context that the Department has been active in seeking a solution to this issue which would avoid the necessity for such a decision. As I have stated, attempts have been made for some time to resolve the issues around the schemes. Advice has been sought on a number of options to address the difficulties, all of which have been found to be legally unsound or financially unaffordable.

It is important that I outline for the committee the consultations which have taken place since I last appeared before it on 6 February. Department of Health officials met representatives of the Disability Federation of Ireland, the National Federation of Voluntary Bodies and the Irish Wheelchair Association following the committee meeting and outlined to them the considerable legal and financial difficulties around the schemes. At the meetings, the input of those organisations was sought to help find a solution or solutions within the available funding.

Together with officials, I met the national council of the Disability Federation of Ireland on Wednesday, 27 February. The closure of the schemes was one of a number of issues discussed. Broader consultation will be undertaken as part of the project group’s work to ensure as wide a range as possible of views and inputs are taken into account. In seeking a solution which will address the transport and mobility needs of those who require supports, the Department is concerned about the group of people who are currently benefitting under the schemes. We must also equally consider, however, the broader group whose needs the Ombudsman has recommended must be looked after on an equitable basis.

The challenge is to find a solution which will best meet these needs within the budget available. However, it must be emphasised that as the Taoiseach, the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, have all stated, the funding of €10.6 million currently allocated to the schemes will be reinvested in its entirety in the solution or solutions which will be identified by the group. The Government’s decision commits that this allocation will remain in place to service priority mobility and transport supports for those most in need. The review group will therefore seek solutions which can be delivered within the available funding.

I assure the members of the committee that if the Department could have found an easy solution to this problem, we would have found it. We must comply with the Equal Status Act; that is clear. A fundamental truth is that it was not possible to allow the two schemes to continue as they had operated, given the significant financial risks to the State. The only way we can address this is to devise a transport solution that will best serve those with priority needs in the future.

I know from the letter of invitation that the committee is disappointed at not being informed, either at the meeting of 6 February or in the intervening period, that suspension of the schemes was being contemplated. I would like to reassure the committee that no solution or decision was made on this matter when we spoke last. It is not possible to predict decisions that ultimately are matters for Government in advance of such decisions being made. We were clear to the committee that the situation was serious, and at the centre of our thoughts were the people in receipt of those payments. Also in our thoughts, however, are this year's school leavers, who will require a placement in September, and our efforts to find places for them with just €4 million in additional funding. All of these decisions are being made in the context of the HSE finding in the order of €800 million in savings in 2013 alone. We are trying to protect as many core health and personal social services as we can in the face of growing demands and diminishing resources. In that context, we were pleased to protect the €10.6 million budget which has been allocated to these schemes to help us to find an appropriate solution. To continue to operate these schemes as they have been in the face of potential legal challenges was ultimately a risk we could no longer afford.

I thank the committee for its attention and I will be happy to answer questions members may wish to put to me or my colleagues.

I thank the Secretary General for coming at such short notice. We appreciate it and recognise this is a matter of enormous importance to many people, and we are joined today by the very people who are affected.

I would like to address the particular matter at this stage and come back to the wider matter later. Could we get more information on the calculation of €100 million and how the Department arrived at that figure? It was my understanding that 19,000 people over 66 years old could apply for the motorised transport grant. Is that grant not primarily to assist people to get to work? If not, how did the Department come to the 19,000 figure? Was a legal challenge pending in the courts on this matter that forced the Department's hand on the day it did?

Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick

We forwarded the basis of our costings for both of these after the last committee meeting. The motorised transport grant has no age limit while the mobility allowance has an age limit. I gave a caveat when promising these figures for the committee that we would do the best we could with the available information. The census profile in 2011 gave a total of 542,277 people aged 15 and over with a disability, and of these, 112,502 were at work - just over 20%. Allowing for 50% eligibility, which is the average industrial wage cut off, with a motorised transport grant of €5,000 per annum every three years, we worked out a cost of €200 million over three years.

For the mobility allowance, we used the national disability survey and according to that, upwards of 59,000 people over 65 years of age had a lot of difficulty in walking for 50 minutes or could not do it at all. All of those people could be eligible for mobility allowance. We figured that while those failing the means test could reduce the number of people over 65, should the definition of disability be expanded to include those with a disability other than a mobility difficulty, the number of eligible people could increase further. That was how we arrived at the cost of €100 million.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

There was no legal challenge pending in the courts.

It might be helpful if the six main questions asked by recipients of the schemes that are to be abolished were answered. I have some specific questions in addition but would it be possible to read those questions into the record?

I might invite Deputies to raise two questions each rather than me read them all out. Every Deputy has two or three questions and can choose to work off the questions submitted by the recipients. It is up to the Deputies.

Some of those affected by this asked me to convey how urgently this must be resolved. One person said that if it is cut, he will have to go to St. Vincent de Paul and it would be devastating for him. He pointed out that the funds allow for those with disabilities to enjoy real autonomy and that minibuses and so on will seriously degrade their quality of life if that is the alternative that is being considered. This allows people to operate at some level as autonomous individuals with self-determination. Public transport can take a person to certain points but they will then face the huge extra difficulties getting from the public transport node to the place of work or residence. To take this away will seriously degrade people's quality of life and they want to know that is not going to happen.

The question at the top of the list for those who are losing out is if there is any plan in place in case this has not been sorted out by 27 March. There is a review group that is undertaking discussions to come up with some sort of long-term solution for this but what happens if the Department has not come up with a solution that is acceptable to all stakeholders by that date? People would be reassured by an answer to that question telling them a plan is in place and that people will not suffer after that date.

It was said no decision had been made the last time we met. Was it being contemplated then? If it was being contemplated, it was wrong not to let this committee know and not to let the public and those who might be affected by the decision know. That would have given everyone a sense of urgency in coming up with a solution and would have shown some respect for the committee and, most importantly, for those who might be affected by this shocking announcement the Department made.

Following on from that, given that the people affected by this announcement are aggrieved at the sudden and shocking nature of this announcement and have been left in a state of uncertainty, what assurances can the Secretary General give that the concerns, needs and wishes of the people affected will take pre-eminence in the consultations of the review group? Who is involved in the group and to what extent does it genuinely represent those affected by the recent decision, the stakeholders?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

On the Deputy's first question, I have a clear expectation that a solution will be found before 27 June. We will listen carefully to everyone in the sector to ensure we arrive at a solution that meets the requirements of the sector.

Prior to the Government decision, we were engaged primarily in seeking a solution which would leave the current allowances as they were. I did not have a decision in mind on 6 February and we were considering a range of options. Since moving to the Department of Health, I and my officials have been giving this matter considerable thought. The issue has been in the Department since 2009 and we are now progressing on the basis of a full consultation process with all of the people involved. I assure the joint committee that we will take on board whatever recommendations or advice is provided by the committee or sector. We are anxious to ensure we meet the needs of people in dealing with the issues members have outlined.

I referred to the membership of the committee. It is led by an eminent individual who has recently retired from the Civil Service and has a good track record in dealing with these issues. We have been in touch with all of the major groups under the auspices of the Disability Federation of Ireland. I am pleased that the Department, the Health Service Executive and the Irish Wheelchair Association are represented on the group, which also includes an individual with significant local authority experience. The group has a representative from Pobal and the National Disability Authority, respectively, as well as a person employed by the Disability Federation of Ireland in a professional role and representatives of the Citizens Information Board and Departments of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Environment, Community and Local and Government, Finance and Social Protection. The Minister and I recently made a request that a senior figure in the Disability Federation of Ireland join the group. We will deal with the project as quickly as possible, in a timely manner and take whatever legal advice is necessary to deal with the challenging issues we face.

I thank Dr. McLoughlin and his officials for appearing before the joint committee. While I did not participate in the discussions during previous meetings, it is clear that many issues arise. I am conscious that this issue predates the current Administration and that we are working in extraordinarily tight economic times. It could be argued, however, that the Department of Health has been careless because other issues have arisen with regard to nursing home subventions and long-stay charges for medical card holders. Now we have the decision to abolish the mobility allowance scheme and motorised transport grants.

I am concerned at the thought processes in evidence in some of the decisions that have been made. At our previous meeting, the Minister indicated that once it became apparent that the schemes had become a problem on the basis that it was illegal not to extend them, it was considered that they no longer accorded with the Government's mainstreaming policy on disability. What better example of mainstreaming can one find that providing financial assistance or grant payments to allow people with a disability to adapt a vehicle or pay for taxi or other form of transport in order that they can travel, pay visits and so forth? This is essentially the definition of mainstreaming.

I am concerned by the emphasis officials and the Minister have placed on what have been described as "administrative" schemes. Dr. McLoughlin stated the "motorised transport grant and mobility allowance were established on an administrative basis, in good faith and with the best intentions, in 1968 and 1979, respectively". It is almost as if an apology is being made for doing so. What is the difference between a scheme that is introduced on an administrative basis and other types of schemes? How many services are provided through schemes that are administrative in nature?

I am concerned that other bodies and individuals will be deterred from seeking the assistance of the Ombudsman if a Department refuses access to a scheme. If such a decision is considered unfair or illegal and the Ombudsman agrees with that view, will the Government's response always be to withdraw the service in question on the basis that it cannot afford to extend it to those who should be afforded access to it?

I ask the Secretary General, in consulting organisations in the disability sector and individuals with disabilities who depend on these services, to bear in mind the likelihood that the individuals in question will be in receipt of a range of other services that have been savagely cut in the past two years and that their income will, in many cases, have been reduced in the past two years. Every cut that has been made, whether to administrative or statutory services - if that is the distinction that is being drawn - has a dramatic impact on the quality of people's lives. If we cannot protect the quality of life for people with disabilities, none of us should be here.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I assure Deputy Colreavy that I will take on board the points he makes and I understand his point on the need to ensure we do not cause any further distress to the client groups to which he refers.

On the administrative versus statutory route, the former is usually the preferred methodology for introducing certain schemes. Historically, there have been many administrative schemes across the health and social services setting. The alternative is a statutory scheme. The difficulty we face is that we have a set of unusual circumstances in that the Ombudsman is correct that the Equal Status Acts must be complied with. That is the position in which we find ourselves. We will make every effort to consult all those involved and ensure that we seek the maximum level support from the sector for whatever solutions are evolved.

Everyone present and many members of the public believe this issue has been handled poorly, not only from a public relations perspective but also from the perspective of disseminating information on the decision. No one has emerged well from the decision to abolish overnight the mobility allowance and mobilised transport grant without explanation. Most members were left confused by the decision. While I accept the issue has been left under review, the decision was taken quickly.

When Dr. McLoughlin states that if an easy solution were to be found we would have found it by now, does that mean the solution will be either very difficult or difficult to find? If he has a solution he might indicate on what basis it was made. Time is running out. He mentioned the people who are in consultation, many of whom will have different views. If there was a simple solution, it would have been found. What format was used? Obviously €10.6 million is not enough because it has been ruled that more people should qualify.

The HSE is spending an absolute fortune on taxis throughout the country and there must be a proper review of that practice. I am informed HSE west sends taxis to people's home which come back if the people concerned are not ready, adding the cost to the bill. That is not the fault of the taxi drivers and may not be the fault of the person being collected. The problem is the meter is still running. This service cost €24 million last year. There is much to review but this particular €10.6 million seems to be a small amount for the service provided. Rather than taking it away, it should be ring-fenced. Would Dr. McLoughlin be looking for more than that amount for a new scheme or is that figure maximised? Does he have the leeway to say that if it is done properly, it might cost €15 million?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

It will be difficult to find a solution. I am being open and direct. We will work with a number of experts; our review team will work very diligently. In due course we are mandated to come back to the Government on this matter, so I am precluded from going into too much detail. We expended a lot of energy trying to keep things as they were. I want everybody to understand that. We sought to keep the arrangements that had been in place, sought legal advice and sought many kinds of solutions but were not in a position to do it. Now we have to proceed to review matters and ensure, with the best expertise we can draw on, to find a solution.

I will not be flippant here in regard to whether we will need more money. If the committee recommends that we should have access to more resources we will consider that, and if that is the way we have to go, we will bring the recommendation to the appropriate sources in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and, through our Minister, to the Government. However, we must be clear that we are in an extraordinarily difficult economic time within the health system. We are obliged to live within the resources, and the overall envelope of money is set by the Government and the Oireachtas. We will be anxious to ensure we live within the requirements of good governance. The issues here are extremely complex, if the Senator will believe me. It is an extraordinarily difficult situation to be in but the position is that we must comply with the equality legislation and must do what is prudent and proper, no matter how difficult the situation. We will do everything we can to assist the clients affected and will listen very carefully. As Secretary General, I will personally make myself available to meet the review group and will assist them in every way we can with whatever expertise is necessary.

First, and most important, I give a very warm welcome to the beneficiaries of the scheme, some of whom are present. I recognise some individuals who gave an excellent account of themselves and their situations on our television screens in recent weeks.

However, I must take extreme exception, although I am sorry to do so. I appreciate that the representatives of the Department of Health have attended today but I must put the following question to them. Did they and the relevant Ministers treat the members and chairman of this committee with utter contempt on the last day they attended to give evidence? At that stage did they not know this option was one they were considering seriously? I listened very carefully to what they said. However, I have been reliably informed since this came to light that on that day, the decision was being taken in conjunction with the Department and our Ministers, and the Department officials were actively considering the discontinuation of both schemes.

I want the Department officials to tell me I am wrong in making that accusation. They attended this committee where they are sworn to give evidence that is honest and truthful, where Ministers attend to give an honest and truthful account of both their actions and those of their Department, yet it has come to light that the representatives misled each one of us and our Chairman at the last meeting of this committee which was set up by the Government in the hope of achieving openness and transparency. Ministers were in attendance, yet the officials never indicated to us in the slightest fashion that what would happen would be what I call the nuclear button. At the last meeting the Minister said to us that we could not afford to comply with the law. I compare that with a person caught by gardaí for having no car tax who says: "I am all right, guard, I can't afford to tax the car so it's fine." What the Minister said to us was: "I can't afford to be compliant with the law."

Did every representative know at the time they were going to do this? If they did, that is fine. I would respect that, as I respect the constraints within which they are working. However, they should have been honest and transparent with us. On that day they or their Ministers should have stated they were proposing the discontinuation of the two schemes. They did not indicate as much to us and I feel very strongly about that. We are just ordinary members of this committee, along with our Chairman, and that was a disgraceful way to treat us. This is not about us but about the people who are receiving the money, or the grant. It is all about them. What way were they treated? If the representatives treated us with contempt, how did they treat those people? They should have let us know they were proposing to discontinue this scheme.

That is the charge I have to make, and it is one I am sorry to have to make. However, I have reliable information that leads me to make it.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I want to make it very clear to the committee and reassure its members that there was no solution or decision made in regard to this matter when we last spoke to them. It is not possible to predict decisions before they are made and which ultimately are matters for Government. We were very clear to the committee that the decision was very serious and that the centre of our thoughts were the people in receipt of these payments.

I will put something directly to the Deputy. Why would we frighten people if we were not sure what was going to happen?

(Interruptions).

No interruptions. Allow Dr. McLoughlin------

He asked me a question and I wanted to answer.

The Deputy will have a chance to respond when Dr. McLoughlin finishes his comments.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

That would be unnecessary and would not be good practice. I am sorry my reputation has been questioned. I am a public servant with some considerable decades of service to this State in all and every kind of circumstance and I reject absolutely that I would ever attend and mislead a committee of the Oireachtas. It is simply not what I do. However, I emphasise that I was very clear that we were in a very serious situation. The record will show my Department has spent a great deal of time trying to find a solution to this. We have been open and frank about the difficulties associated with finding a solution. I know we will have the complete support of the Disability Federation of Ireland and other bodies in seeking and finding a solution which will meet the needs of the clients who need motorised transport arrangements and support in terms of their mobility. We are very conscious of this. My Department is deeply and genuinely concerned. Again, I want to make it absolutely clear to the committee that no solution or decision was made in regard to this matter.

The other point is that the matter had to be put to the Government. I am not in a position to change the rules on how decisions are made in a democracy.

Could I make a point?

The Deputy has expressed a view and Dr. McLoughlin has refuted it. We will leave the matter at that. However, if the Deputy wants to make an additional point, he may do so.

I do wish to make one because I was asked a question. In no way do I wish to impugn Dr. McLoughlin's good reputation, so he should not take my remarks personally. His reputation is good and it is one of honest service to the Department for many years. I mean that. However, he has indicated clearly in his response that the Ministers who preceded the current one were considering seriously the abandonment of both schemes. I listened very carefully to what Dr. McLoughlin said. He explained to us the seriousness of the circumstances, which we all realise, and stated that is was ultimately a Government decision. Therefore, the Ministers who came before us on the day in question were contemplating the move but decided not to tell the committee.

I request a very brief response.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I have already said what I have said and I do not propose to elaborate on it.

That is fair enough.

I thank Dr. McLoughlin and his team for their presentation. That there was no legal case pending is important. It means there was not a clear and present danger. Why has it taken so long for solutions to be considered so intensely? If the Department had been aware of this matter in 2008 and 2009, surely a proposal should have been on the table months ago. It should have been on the table if it was clear that there was an issue arising regarding the Equal Status Act.

A terrible precedent has been set by the State. If a particular scheme or mode of empowering and supporting citizens does not comply with equality legislation, the solution is to abolish the scheme. This leads to a very serious public policy question. We should have legislation in place to ensure the necessary schemes are resourced.

The Secretary General may not be able to answer my next question as it is a political one. It concerns making sure citizens' rights are vindicated. We are talking about citizens, not clients or customers, who have a right to equality. Making sure that they can enjoy their constitutional rights, be they to travel to work or go about their daily business, requires resources. The first place I would be looking for resources would be the Vote for the health service. Why was €800 million taken out of the health service budget if essential services needed to have been provided?

Has the Department received or sought legal advice on whether abolishing the scheme is constitutional and whether the constitutional rights of people who were in the scheme before its abolition have been violated? It seems they have been completely discommoded and the carpet has been taken from under them. Having been assigned a position on the scheme, they had a legitimate expectation that the scheme would continue for the stipulated duration. The principle of legitimate expectation is an important one in law, and it has been breached by this decision.

I thank the delegates for attending and for being so frank with us today.

The Secretary General is not expected to comment on Government policy and to be accountable for it in terms of budgets. I appreciate Dr. McLoughlin's co-operation, however, and I ask him to respond in kind.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am in an extraordinarily difficult position in that legal advice available to my Department and the Minister has to remain confidential. I have heard what the Deputy said and understand his concerns. I want to be clear with him. This matter has featured for a long time. All I can say is that we will do everything we can to find a solution. The ombudsman has made this very clear. I am not in a position to deal with the specifics; suffice it to say that we have had very comprehensive legal advice from the Attorney General on all aspects of the schemes.

Some of the points I wish to make may offer solutions in regard to budgetary issues within the HSE. I am certainly not referring to a matter of Government policy. There are areas that Mr. McLoughlin should consider and may well be considering. I am the parent of a child with an intellectual disability. I am not a fan of global or universal payments but am certainly a supporter of funding those who need the service. We must have a money-follows-the-citizen model as quickly as possible. Those who have funding at present are my primary concern. I know quite a few of them. It is a question of how we will care for them in a few months when the funding has ceased. Addressing this is critical.

Let me refer to the actual budgets. This matter was raised in the HSE west area some days ago and it has been a bone of contention for me for a long time. I refer to the voluntary bodies and service providers. I use the term "voluntary" very loosely as I can assure one that they are certainly not voluntary. They are sucking a vast sum of money out of the system. Consider the corporate governance structures in many of the bodies. Brothers of Charity had €167 million for its 2011 budget. Daughters of Charity had €110 million and Rehab Care had €45 million. A raft of advocacy groups throughout the country that do not actually provide any service are receiving funding. I cannot stand over that. I do not need anybody to tell me what my daughter needs. This is the case with many other parents. I would rather have the service, not somebody to advocate on my behalf.

When I see various groups making presentations in the audiovisual room, I see many individuals with the title "chief executive officer". Every one of them is earning €150,000. This is the problem. The chief executive officer of Enable Ireland is on €150,000. With regard to the Brothers of Charity and a raft of bodies throughout the country, the average CEO salary is from €120,000 to-----

Sorry, Senator-----

It is very important to put these figures on the record. I do not normally get the opportunity to do so.

I will allow the Senator to finish, but when he does he should address specifically the topic under discussion.

I want to put this on the public record because it is important. The chief executive officer of Rehab Care earns in excess of €250,000, and the chief executive officer of the Irish Wheelchair Association earns between €140,000 and €150,000.

I ask Dr. McLoughlin and his team to examine this year the corporate structures of the service providers. I expect to see no more than one provider in every county offering a service to the elderly and disabled. I do not see any reason for any more than that. I do not understand why we need six chief executive officers, six human resources departments and six management structures. This is where the money is going. I want to see the money delivered to the client, including my daughter, as quickly as possible. Let us provide the service where it is needed from 1 January 2014 and stop paying the people I have mentioned. We have no obligation to them under the Croke Park agreement. We need to deal with this; one will find there is plenty of money.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am very pleased to deal with the questions of the Senator. My Department has in place a value-for-money programme and we are currently exploring the best options in order to have the money follow the patient or, in this case, the client. The Senator is correct that every aspect of expenditure under the Vote of the Department of Health must be scrutinised because we are in extraordinarily difficult times. Therefore, we are working with the HSE. We are working very closely with all the organisations, which co-operate fully with us in these matters. We will be relying very heavily on all the organisations for their ideas and input into finding solutions. They, too, will want to achieve the best value for money, modernise their service and develop services of a high quality. We really do want a full partnership approach to building new services and a new system for people with a disability. This is a very strong commitment from the Department. There is a very strong commitment from the Minister and Ministers of State involved to work with all in the sector to achieve the objective of getting the best value for taxpayers' money.

We have done quite an amount of work on other aspects of the services. For instance, we have dramatically improved the quality of service provision in the acute hospital system. We are looking very carefully at the whole business of medicines management and though we have some distance to go, we have made significant progress in that area too. Across the system, in the last year or two, there has been significant progress and I know that the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, will announce some of these improvements very shortly in the House. He will be telling Deputies and Senators of the significant progress that has been made to date. In this particular area, I can assure the committee that obtaining value for money and completing the policy review of disability services are at the top of our agenda.

I now call Deputy Harrington.

Excuse me, but can I just follow up on my point? I named a few groups but there are obviously many more groups getting funding. The full list can be seen on the Department's website and it is ridiculous. It is totally out of line with today's needs.

I thank Dr. McLoughlin and his officials for coming before the committee again. I wish to put on record the horror that we experienced when we listened to the testimony of the Ombudsman and the presentations by the Minister, Ministers of State and the Department. The vista that was before us was an appalling one. We were operating a scheme that was clearly contrary to the Equal Status Act. It seemed almost Monty Pythonesque that a scheme which was giving such a valuable resource to those who needed it most was in contravention of the Equal Status Act. At the time I pointed out that while everyone in this room is equal under the law, clearly we are not all the same. People have different needs and demands and some need additional resources in order to be able to do the day-to-day things that most of us take for granted. The scheme, while not perfect, worked reasonably well in practice. Had it been perfect, it would not have been brought to the attention of the Ombudsman's office in the first place. Something that was reasonable in practice and which, to paraphrase-----

Sorry Deputy, I must interrupt you for a moment. We have a logistics issue in the room which must be resolved.

It was a scheme that could work in practice but could it work in theory? Quite clearly, it did not work in theory but was reasonably satisfactory in practice. I ask the Secretary General if the Department of Health noted, when the Equal Status Act was being debated and adopted, that these schemes could be in contravention of that legislation? Were the schemes flagged as an issue at that time? Was the issue brought to the attention of the Government at the time?

In its deliberations in the past and up to today, has the Department considered a legislative solution to this problem? Is new legislation before the review group as a potential solution, for example?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

In response to Deputy Harrington, all options will be on the table for the review group to consider. Whatever is recommended will be considered by the Department and subsequently by the Government. Ms Duffy will answer the question regarding the matter being before the Government during the debate on the Equal Status Act.

Ms Gráinne Duffy

The Department of Health was concerned about the equity of the schemes for many years. In fact, during the mid-2000s the Department was in negotiation to see if there was a way in which the upper age limit could be removed. However, that would have required additional funding, as we have already outlined, and did not prove possible. In the context of a general review of schemes that were under the auspices of the Department, the issue was parked while a range of other issues about these schemes were being examined. That then led to a decision by the Government that the schemes should transfer to another Department, namely, the Department of Social Protection. Since then, the domiciliary care allowance, for example, has also transferred to that Department. After that, the Ombudsman was examining individual cases and came to the Department with concerns. It was at that point that the Department started to consider the real legalities of the issue. Legal advice was sought and real efforts were made to find a way to address the legalities. This has been a pattern over a number of years. The Department has made efforts to address, in particular, the age limit, for a long number of years on the basis of equity. It is not something that we have ignored, in any shape or form. We have been trying to resolve this for a long time. It just has not proven possible, particularly in the context of the financial constraints under which we currently operate.

I want to let the first round of questioners finish before returning to Deputies and Senators who may have further queries. I now call Deputy Mulherin.

I agree with my colleague, Deputy Harrington, that it seems ironic that we had a scheme which, by all accounts, was working well and supporting those who needed financial assistance to improve their mobility but which was snookered because of the Equal Status Act. That legislation, of course, was introduced for a very good reason. However, in some instances, equality is a hard thing to measure.

I also note that it is not at all unusual to have to impose cut-off points for schemes when there are budgets to be met. Sometimes the cut-off point refers to age. I know, for instance, that the special housing aid for the elderly scheme, administered by local authorities, is only available to those over 60 years of age. We also know that there are other age limits and restrictions applied when we try to cut our cloth to measure. In the context of such age limits being applied and justifications being given for them, is the Department looking at ways that a justification can be given for the current limit or is it saying that such a limit cannot be envisaged at all under the current scheme? I say this in the context of the fact that, for example, social welfare payments change as people age. Is the Department looking at the possibility of putting this on a statutory basis in order to give effect to the general gist of what we want to achieve here?

This is obviously a very difficult situation. I welcome the fact that the €10.6 million has been ring-fenced, set aside and will continue to be there to be provide assistance to people who have mobility problems. However, the fact that the issue has been kicked around as a political football is making people fearful. They are hearing soundbites to the effect that people with disabilities and mobility issues are being attacked, which is outrageous. It is scaremongering and making people very fearful. I understand, from the Department's previous attendance at this committee and from the plans going forward, that there will be a serious effort made to address this situation and also to get this money spent on mobility assistance and not on anything else. The people who are affected by this need to be assured of that and of the bona fides of the Department and the Minister for Health in their attempts to address this situation.

It should also be said that some of those to the fore in kicking the political football around were involved in supporting a previous Government which, when the country was awash with money, did not see fit to sort out a problem such as this one. It is highly reprehensible behaviour. I do not think in any system of adversarial politics or any democracy that supports true opposition, that this should be the case. There are many issues that can be argued and that need to be teased out by those in opposition but pumping out untruths and provoking fear in people that they will be sacrificed, when that is not the intention at all and will not be the case, is reprehensible. I condemn that sort of thing and have nothing more to say on the matter.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The Deputy has made some important points. We want to arrive at a sustainable and viable solution and if that requires legislation, we will bring appropriate advice to the Government via the Minister for Health. I want to ensure everybody understands the Department and the Ministers were very deeply concerned about this issue. Since 2009 this matter has been considered very seriously within the Department. The file would indicate that governments since 2009 were aware of the issues. I suspect the reason people were very slow to take decisions was that at the end of the day we are down to the 4,700 people and 300 people who benefit from the grants. The Government has wisely decided to put a stay on any change to the allowance for four months to consider solutions. We need to think outside the box. I find today's contributions very helpful and constructive. We are very anxious to hear from people who may have solutions, including people, like Deputy Mulherin, who would have an understanding of many of the legal issues. It is possible that we have missed out on some advice in the past. We want to try to get a solution that works for the people we want to serve - the clients who have a disability. We are very concerned to allay any fears or concerns they have that they might be left in isolation. I take this opportunity to assure them that they are right at the heart of everything we are trying to do and I would be very happy to engage with them to assure them on that.

Dr. McLoughlin indicated he needed to leave at by 5.30. Would he be agreeable to remaining for a further ten minutes?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Five.

How many people have found themselves discommoded by virtue of the current rules by being too old to avail of this?

Ms Gráinne Duffy

Is the Deputy asking about those who applied before the closing date?

I am asking about those who have applied and do not meet the criteria which are being questioned as a result of the Ombudsman's decision.

Ms Gráinne Duffy

We have figures, which the HSE collated for us, on the number of people above the age limit who applied and were refused. In 2010, 43 people over the age of 66 applied and were refused. In 2011, 61 people over the age of 66 applied and were refused. To the end of the third quarter of 2012, 40 people were affected. I do not know if other people had applied but were refused on grounds other than on the basis of their disability. However, in terms of age we have those figures.

What is available to those people who are aged over 66?

Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick

It relates to the Department of Social Protection. All the people concerned who are on disability allowance would also have an entitlement to free travel. In the case of older people, the area in which I worked before I came to this area, transport is one of the key issues for them, particularly those in rural areas. Transport is a much bigger issue than health. Access to transport around social activities even for mental health purposes is vital. Aside from whatever local schemes that exist and whatever transport the HSE provides to and from day care, and there are a lot of voluntary initiatives affecting older people on the disability side, but there is nothing of the order of this kind of allowance available to older people for this purpose.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

In the coming weeks and months we will definitely have a good look at the issue of transport for people with disability and people who are older. The particular needs of senior citizens will be looked at. It may be possible to find some solutions in the round for everybody.

I will take the final round of three questions together and then the witnesses can respond.

I welcome the witnesses and our visitors who are receiving these allowances and grants. I hope they will continue to do so without any further worries. We have an opportunity to make that commitment in meaningful words that will ensure that. At the moment some €10.6 billion has been armour plated for application to these groups.

It is €10.6 million.

I am sorry. I have just come from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform.

Ms Grainne Duffy

We wish it was €10.6 billion.

Those of us on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform deal in billions.

Some 4,700 people are receiving the mobility allowance. At approximately €2,500 per person the annual figure should be €11.7 million. If it were to rise to €100 million on the basis of the estimates Ms Fitzpatrick did, it suggests a nine or tenfold jump in just the annual payment envisaged. Is it huge numbers of people by virtue of age cut-off points or other eligibility criteria? The €200 million over three years suggests a jump from 300 people in receipt of it to approximately 19,000. That would indicate we need to review the needs and how we can commit to meeting those needs. In some cases for people not already in the scheme, we may need to look at different ways to provide the transport requirements for them to maintain as much independence as possible. We need to commit to the people who need the physical benefits of what these allowances and grants provide that they are left at least as well off and hopefully even better cared for than they stand at the moment.

Regarding equality, in applications for university, for instance, not everybody who wants to go can go. There will always be some degree of eligibility criteria. However, we must err on the side of generosity rather than meanness.

I was heartened to hear from Ms Duffy that Department officials have been agonising over this since 2009. Perhaps rather than agonising on their own, they should have been telling the public that they had been agonising about it and then the problem might not have exploded out from an Ombudsman's point of view. However, even the Ombudsman agonised before the report was issued and was not clear over whether there had been breaches of equality status. It is a matter of people in officialdom fessing up quicker and getting the problems in the public domain more quickly.

I seek two short clarifications. Clearly the Secretary General and his team do not have time to deal with the other matters we have not reached. Will we have the opportunity to invite the Secretary General back? We have been unable to deal with an entire area, primarily because this is incredibly serious and very many members wanted to speak, which is entirely fine. However, I am concerned about the other matters we did not reach.

We can clarify that at a later date. It would be a few weeks before we could expect the Secretary General to be before us again. We will proceed with the Senator's questioning at this point and see where we might get.

I have two queries. With regard to the motorised transport grant, I am sorry for the confusion earlier about the age. On the description of disability, is there an estimate that an additional 19,000 people would be applying for that grant? That is the information that was given to me by people with disability but perhaps the witness would clarify that. My other question relates to the letter of 15 October 2012 from Tony O'Brien to the Ombudsman in which he says that within two weeks an implementation plan will be sent by Greg Price, director of advocacy, to the Ombudsman regarding the motorised transport grant report. He also stated that there is a group in place, chaired by Dr. Cate Hartigan, to bring consistency and clarity nationally to the operation of this scheme. Is that group contributing to Ms Langford's new review group or is it separate from it? What happened with the forwarding of the implementation plan that was promised last October? I realise it was not promised by the Department but by the HSE but it should be under the Secretary General's remit.

In a way we must wait and see what the outcome of the review will be, but I hope the Secretary General will take a message from this meeting. It might be already clear to him. While he has a technical and legal problem and a difficulty resolving it, the parameters within which that problem must be solved should be ones whereby he will ensure that the quality of life of the current recipients of the grants and allowances is not degraded in any way. I do not know if he can give an assurance that this will be the case, but it is an assurance that would go a long way towards reassuring and quelling the anxiety of the people who were here today and others who are in receipt of these grants and allowances. Whatever technical, legal or other difficulties the Secretary General, and we collectively, have, we should not degrade their quality of life and mobility capacity. It would be very good if he could give that assurance.

Deputy Mathews mentioned something very important. It is not just an issue for the witnesses, but for Departments and the Government generally. There is an adage to the effect that a problem shared is a problem solved. Sitting on problems and hiding them away or disguising them to external view does not help to resolve them. It is far better to put them out there-----

It happened with all the losses in the banks.

Exactly. If the problems are made public, we as a society can try to resolve them in a fair and practical way. Sitting on something and hoping it will go away is a guarantee that it will explode in one's face at some point.

We must not be afraid of reality.

I have a brief question. It finalises a question I already asked. I believe the administrative schemes are highly at risk. Could we be supplied with a list of all the administrative schemes and services?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

As they relate to my Department, we will provide that information.

Are you referring to the public sector in general, Deputy, or those that are specific to the Department of Health?

The Department. I will inquire from other Departments as well.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

We will get that information for the Deputy.

On the Senator's question, the HSE will be a component part of this review and inter alia the HSE will be involved with the Langford group to ensure the issues are dealt with.

I wish to be clear about the matters raised by Deputy Boyd Barrett. While these matters were in my Department, I must confess that it was the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, who insisted on them matters being brought into the public domain. It is a political decision to bring these matters into the public domain, because ultimately these are matters that the Government must deal with. I welcome the opportunity of engagement with this committee. I also welcomed the opportunity of appearing here previously with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to give the committee a flavour of the challenges and difficulties we face.

With regard to whether I can give commitments and undertakings, I am not in a position to give absolute guarantees and undertakings. However, we are determined to do everything we can in this difficult situation to ensure that the needs and interests of the clients we serve are protected. I assure the committee we will do everything we can to do that in the context of the solution we find. I am conscious of the fact that there are 4,700 people in receipt of the mobility allowance and that another 300 received the motorised transport grant. I am very concerned to assure them and the agencies that work with them that we will work in true partnership to find a solution to this issue.

I thank the committee members for their comments and suggestions. They have been very helpful and we will be very happy to take on board many of their recommendations. I also thank you, Chairman, for the courtesy you have shown to me and my officials.

Thank you. On behalf of the committee I thank Dr. McLoughlin, Ms Fitzpatrick, Ms Duffy and their colleagues for appearing before the committee today and for being generous with their time. It was more than we anticipated.

We will suspend the meeting to allow our next guests to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.

I thank the witnesses for their patience. I welcome Mr. Michael McCabe, chairman of the Centre for Independent Living, CIL, who is accompanied by Ms Natasha Lynch, his personal assistant, and Mr. Gary Lee, the centre's chief executive. I invite them to make their contributions.

Mr. Michael McCabe

I thank the joint committee's members for inviting the CIL to appear before them. Just over two weeks ago, an emotional Taoiseach quite rightly spoke of this nation's shame. He stated: "Today we live in a very different Ireland with a very a different consciousness and awareness. We live in an Ireland where we have more compassion, empathy, insight and heart."

According to Government figures, some 4,000 people with disabilities live in institutions. The Government knows that this is wrong. Government policy is to move away from segregating people with disabilities from the rest of society by facilitating inclusion. The personal assistant service, housing adaption grants, the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant are key supports in the realisation of the inclusion of people with disabilities in the community. These supports can be the difference between living and existing. Not only does the axing of the allowance and grant go against domestic and international policy on accommodating the inclusion of people with disabilities in society, but it is morally wrong.

I will hand over to the CEO, Mr. Lee. He is not paid anything like the figures mentioned earlier.

Mr. Gary Lee

I am looking for a pay rise. Mr. McCabe has asked me to go through the CIL presentation.

The CIL was established in Ireland 21 years ago by people with disabilities. Today, it is still governed by people with disabilities for people with disabilities. The CIL's motto is "Nothing about us, without us". In other words, people with disabilities should have a say in decisions that affect people with disabilities. They should be consulted at all times and be centre stage in terms of taking decisions that will affect their lives. There are 19 centres for independent living throughout the State, involving 7,000 people with disabilities.

However, while a person's home offers safety, warmth and a good environment to live in, it cannot be and should not be the person's complete world. Our lives and family lives are not solely determined by our home. Independence and inclusion in our own community is a measure of a fully engaged life for people with disability, as it is for everybody.

We could have written this, but we did not. This is a direct quotation from a report published in June 2011, entitled Time to Move on from Congregated Settings: A Strategy for Community Inclusion. This HSE report was done by the working group on congregated settings.

The HSE is talking the talk on the one hand and, on the other, it is doing what it is doing. Statements in major reports like this one are great, but what happens on the ground? The very services that enable inclusion and independence are not being expanded to meet needs that have already been assessed and to tackle waiting lists. Instead, existing services that people with disabilities depend upon to enable them to be active participants in the community are being cut.

We have heard that, due to complex legal issues, Departments have been considering their position in recent years. We cannot understand how the decision was made or why it was announced when it was on a Tuesday evening the week before last. I have discussed this matter with many of the people who are directly affected. Many of our members are upset and frightened. They are the same people from whom the Government tried to remove personal assistant services in September. Many of those in receipt of personal assistant services are also in receipt of the allowance and the grant. By and large, the people in receipt of the grants have fixed incomes.

Today, a girl asked me to raise her case with the committee. She is called Rachel and she lives in Raheny. Rachel is a wheelchair user who must take oxygen. Although she lives in Raheny, which is in Dublin, she cannot access public transport. If she goes to get a bus, she cannot wait outside for very long, because doing so affects her lungs. She has tried public transport, but sometimes she has needed to wait 20 minutes or half an hour for a properly accessible bus to come along. One or two buses with ramps might arrive, but those ramps might not work.

If it is a Tuesday and ramps are only fixed on a Monday, it would be out of action for the next few days.

Even in Dublin people rely on both the allowance and the grant. Rachel is a university student in her 20s and the college will provide transport to bring her to and from the campus. However, if she wants to carry out additional research for her course, the transport she takes must come from her mobility allowance. The mobility allowance is also there to enable her to meet friends, and she has told me she likes to go to Blanchardstown and the cinema. She likes to do the things everybody likes to do and especially girls her age. The mobility allowance gives her the independence to do that. Her father's vehicle has been adapted in a process facilitated by the motorised transport grant. Without the allowance and the grant, Rachel will effectively be confined to her home and unable to participate fully in society. She has much to offer society.

We have considered the legal complexities. I will throw one of these out there. Article 19 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities indicates: "States parties to this convention recognise the equal right of all persons with disabilities to live in the community, with choices equal to others, and shall take effective and appropriate measures to facilitate full enjoyment by persons with disabilities of this right and their full inclusion and participation in the community." Some 127 countries have ratified this UN convention since March 2006. We have known for several years prior to this and for close to a decade, as the State was involved in representations relating to the convention, that we would sign the convention.

I am sorry to interrupt but there is a vote in the Dáil. The witnesses require another five or ten minutes to finish the presentation so should we suspend the meeting for the duration of the vote? I do not want to rush the presentation as it is important. Should we suspend for eight or nine minutes?

Has it just been called?

We could give it another two or three minutes.

Okay. I am sorry about this but a vote in the Dáil happens from to time and messes things up.

Mr. Gary Lee

That is understandable.

It relates to health services and we would not want to miss it.

We will give it another three minutes before suspending for ten minutes. We can take it up where we left off.

Mr. Gary Lee

The point I am trying to get across is that 127 countries have ratified the UN convention. The Government has told us that for policy reasons, it will not ratify the convention until we are in compliance with it. If it is really serious about ratifying the UN convention, did it consider its articles, and particularly article 19, before ceasing the allowance?

The national disability strategy, along with the European disability strategy for 2010 to 2020, is all about inclusion of people with disabilities in the community. The allowance and the grant are vital supports for many members who have specialised access requirements not provided by mainstream public transport. Taking them away, as evidenced in Rachel's case, would definitely result in isolation from the community.

The abolition of the existing schemes and the confusion about what will replace them has unnecessarily instilled fear in many people with disabilities. We have heard the proposals of taking the money, ring-fencing it and giving it to service providers of transport for people with disabilities. Will we go back to the indignity of the minibus? What way is that to treat people in 2013? It will definitely lead to increased social isolation for people with disabilities, decreasing quality of life and employment opportunities. It definitely decreases autonomy and personal development, as well as the opportunity to take part in vocational training. It will also result in the decreasing of the potential of each individual person to contribute to society in a meaningful and valued way.

I do not want to be alarmist but this will mean reinstitutionalisation for some people with disabilities.

We will suspend at this point but the witnesses can take as long as they wish for the rest of the presentation. We can then have a questions and answer session. I apologise again for the interruption.

Sitting suspended at 6.15 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

I apologise again for the interruption.

Mr. Michael McCabe

Before Mr. Lee continues, I would like to follow up on a point he made. If the organisations get the funds, they will not just use minibuses but they will also have the word "ambulance" written on them. People with disabilities would have a major objection to that as they are not sick. If a person wants to go out at night, he or she would ring for a taxi for immediate collection but if the organisations get the money, people would probably have to book a week in advance. That is not equal treatment to everybody else.

Mr. Gary Lee

When we suspended, a number of people in the Visitors Gallery made some points, one of which follows Mr. McCabe's comments. The grant enables people to choose when they want to go out but that choice is removed when one must book a van in advance. That van or minibus may collect a few others as well, so one may have to wait for a considerable period before getting to the destination.

Before the break I mentioned how the HSE, the Minister and Department may not have considered the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities before going ahead with their decision. We wonder what sort of thought went into it. There does not appear to be any proper cost projects to prove the affordability of problems with regard to the actions. They do not seem to have properly assessed the needs of those in receipt of the funding and the effects that the withdrawal will have on them. It might end up costing the State much more to do what is being proposed. Interestingly, the scheme was not encompassed in the value-for-money review of the disability services programme, and we are trying to tie this in with the national disability strategy.

With regard to what can be done to make this more efficient from an administration perspective, we are not just here to criticise and we can be consulted as well. Perhaps the mobility allowance could become part of the disability allowance, which is means-tested anyway. Did the Department explore that option? On the other side of the coin, people still in institutions may only have €20 or €30 left from the disability allowance once they have handed over moneys and the mobility allowance was really all they had to allow them out of institutions. That was their means of leaving institutional settings in many cases.

We have heard that the Department will write to people in receipt of the allowance to get their views on it. Engaging with people by letter could be difficult. In the past public health nurses could explain what was in the letter and provide assistance but we question this type of consultation. Is this going to be the only form of direct consultation with the recipients or will there be more meaningful consultation beyond writing a letter?

Ms Shelly Gaynor is in the Visitors Gallery and she made a valid point. She told me she paid for her car from the allowance, as she got a loan on the strength of the allowance and the motorised transport grant. It will be taken from her.

She will not be able to afford to keep her transport up and she is still going to have the debt. We spoke before about legitimate expectation. If one has something and one has acted on that, and in Shelley's case, she did, not only was the grant available to enable her to get out into the community but she also used the grant to enable her get finance to assist her in adapting her vehicle. There are other legal questions that arise. There are complex legal questions on this side as well as the other side and the issue may not be as cut and dry as the Government thinks.

A person in receipt of disability allowance receives about €10,000 per annum. The mobility allowance would top that amount up to €12,500. Therefore, €2,500 of €12,500 is 20%. Many people have just been told they will incur a 20% reduction in their income; on any level that is unfair. It seems to me with the personal assistant services, the motorised transport grant and the mobility allowance scheme being targeted that everything is up for grabs. The Government could well look at other areas such as the housing adaptation grant.

Mr. Michael McCabe

We do not have to hold back. We do not have the Croke Park agreement. All we can do is demonstrate but we do not want to do that.

Ms Natasha Lynch

Michael thinks it is very unfair.

Mr. Michael McCabe

If any other sector was cut by 20% it would not just lie down and roll over.

Mr. Gary Lee

We would question the Department of Health figures. Deputy Peter Mathews fairly well summed up the position we would take. If we are looking at a cost of €200 million over three years for the motorised transport grant, that is 65 million per annum, and 100 million per annum for the mobility allowance, it is interesting to note that the press releases mentioned the cost as €300 million, now they say one component of that costs €200 million over three years. Even taking €200 million for the motorised transport grant, that is €65 million per annum, in terms of the people in receipt of that grant, it would cater for 50 times the number of people who are currently in receipt of it.

The Secretary General specifically said there would be significant financial risks to the State. I do not think that enabling people with disabilities to participate in society should be considered in the same breath as a significant financial risk to the State. We often hear that language in terms of the banks and the amount of money that has been paid out in relation to that area. That sort of language is not acceptable when talking about the people with disabilities who are the recipients of this allowance and are the most vulnerable members of society.

This allowance was established, as the Secretary General said, by way of a Department circular in 1968. That circular was amended over the years. The 1992 Finance Act, which amended the 1989 Finance Act, enabled the then Minister in 1994 to set out the parameters in terms of medical criteria to qualify for a primary medical certificate. It is clear from the regulations that a very restrictive interpretation was taken of disability and they refer to severe impairment. Any person who has sought an assessment for the grant and the allowance will be aware of the strict criteria that apply. If one is not issued with a primary medical certificate in one's locality, one is entitled under the 1994 regulations to go to the Disabled Drivers Medical Board of Appeal in Dún Laoghaire. No matter where in the country one lives, one has to present there for appeal. That appeal is, effectively, another medical assessment, although in our view it should be wider than that. The regulations would seem to suggest that it could be wider than that. The appeals board, effectively, is a further medical assessment. I was there the other day when 27 appeals were being heard that day by one board comprised of three medical doctors. I was there with a gentleman from County Clare who lives ten miles from the nearest bus stop. He arrived at 12.20 p.m. and was seen by the board at 1 p.m. When we sought clarification as to the actual function of the board there appeared to be some confusion. In this day and age it is not acceptable that 27 cases are heard in when one day when two or three hours should be spent on a particular case. I will ask Mr. Michael McCabe if there are any further points he wishes me to make.

Mr. Michael McCabe

If there are any questions we will be happy to answer them.

I will have to leave for a vote in about two minutes.

I will let the Senator in first.

I thank the Chairman and will be as quick as I can. I thank the witnesses for drawing so many issues to our attention.

On the letter that the HSE sent to the Ombudsman in October 2012 that I mentioned earlier, the HSE speaks of an organised response. I wonder whether Mr. McCabe's organisation knew about that or whether that was the first he had heard that there was an implementation plan to be given and a group put in place to bring consistency and clarity nationally to the operation of the motorised transport scheme.

The Secretary General and his officials have said they - I suppose "fretted" is one of the words that might be appropriate - worried and have been concerned about this for any number of years. How does Mr. McCabe feel on hearing that? Does that make sense to him?

Finally, albeit that it is with enormous difficulty and, Mr. McCabe states, was done at the stroke of a pen, does he accept now that these schemes have not been axed? Does Mr. McCabe still say that the schemes are axed or does he believe that the money is ring-fenced and new schemes will be put in place because the terminology of axing or removing is quite strong? Repeatedly, reassurances have been given that the money is ring-fenced and a new scheme will be put in place. I wonder how he feels after hearing that. I thank them both and thank all who have come and have been so patient this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Lee

The Centre for Independent Living was not consulted. I take it Senator O'Keeffe is referring to the Ryan case. There was a letter in that regard.

No. This is a-----

Mr. Gary Lee

Sorry, the Ombudsman.

This is a specific response to the motorised transport grant.

Mr. Gary Lee

We were not consulted on that.

Senator O'Keeffe used the word "fretted", agonised or whatever. We are not here to point the finger at anybody. Certainly, we have always found the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to be very receptive. She has met us a number of times, not in regard to this. We do not question her bona fides and where she is coming from in relation to this. As a Minister of State, it would appear that she does not have devolved powers. Of significance here is the fact that there has been no statement of significance at all by any of the senior Ministers in Government, and that is what would concern us. There is no Minister for disability at the Cabinet table and perhaps there needs to be. There does not seem to be a voice for those with disabilities at the Cabinet table.

On the use of the word "axed", we decided deliberately to use that word. The mobility allowance is €9 million. There is a further €1.3 million on the motorised transport grant. If it is €10.3 million and that money is being ring-fenced to enable a new system to come into place that will have more recipients, then there will be a smaller amount of money in the pot to be divided round and it follows that there must be less money available to those who are already in receipt. That is a best case scenario. That is saying that recipients will be paid directly. However, indications are that the money will be given to service providers to provide transport for persons with disabilities. Certainly, that is what had been stated initially, after this story broke. That is why we used the word "axed". We feel that it has been axed.

Ms Natasha Lynch

Can Michael come in on that?

Mr. Michael McCabe

I believe the money will be ring-fenced but if you were a person coming up to the age of 16 and you were looking forward to getting this money, how would you feel. I would be very angry and annoyed.

The other point is as Mr. Lee said, that it will be impossible to do what they want to do with the €10 million. It has to go to the individual, not organisations, not even my own organisation. CIL does provide transport but we do not interfere with the mobility allowance.

I thank Mr. McCabe.

I thank them for coming in and thank those in the gallery for coming in as well.

First, I can fairly say that the committee is dealing here with members who are completely sympathetic to Mr. McCabe's view on this and its objectives in safeguarding the grants and allowances. The big question we need to discuss is how we will do that, given the current situation, and what is Mr. McCabe's view about how we can do it.

The Government's position, as I see it, is to say that it wants to safeguard the resources necessary to provide those with disabilities with the existing allowances and grants but, because of this legal situation, it can no longer do it anymore and if it simply opens up the scheme to all those who would be entitled to it, it would cost the State more. There are questions as to whether the Government is grossly exaggerating how much more it would cost or has it any basis for making these assumptions. Those are legitimate queries and questions that we should be asking. However, nobody can fully answer that. It is possible it will cost more, perhaps not as much as the Government says.

Against that background, I would like to know the centre's attitude to that. I know my attitude. This is what I am trying to get at here. My attitude is very simple, that those with a disability have a right to these allowances and anybody who has disabilities who requires this allowance or grant, whether over 66, under 66, only needing it only in their latter years or have needed it all of their lives, as far as I am concerned, should have it. The scheme should be opened up and the State should find the funding.

If the Government says it has not got the funding, I say the Government has it for the bondholders, the rich or whatever. That is my attitude. I wonder whether that is Mr. McCabe's attitude. That is one way of approaching the problem, by simply saying we demand the resources, they should be provided as there is a right and entitlement to them. Finding the resources is the Government's problem. The alternative approach is to accept the Government line that it wants to give the allowance to the existing recipients but it does not have any more than €10.9 million, and on that basis, work out a solution with the Government around how that €10.9 million continues to go to those who currently get it. I wonder what is Mr. McCabe's attitude to that conundrum.

Mr. Michael McCabe

That is a very easily answered question. The Centre for Independent Living is an equality rights-based organisation so I agree with the Deputy's view.

Mr. Gary Lee

This is the situation. The other side of the coin is that it is not up to the Centre for Independent Living to figure out how this will be delivered. This is what the Government is paid to do and has been elected to do. I am sure there are ways to save money in the disability system but it was decided not to include this service in the value for money review. It is very difficult to understand it. A fairly comprehensive value for money review was carried out but it was decided not to review these particular schemes.

I apologise but I must leave. I thank all of the witnesses for their contributions today. Submissions were received from the Disability Federation of Ireland, disability rights campaigners and senior officials from the Department of Health and all committee members have copies of these. All of these submissions are in our work programme.

Deputy Peter Mathews took the Chair.

I completely agree with the approach of the witnesses and it is the right way to go. Earlier I asked the Secretary General a question on who was involved in the review group trying to resolve the problem. Are the witnesses involved?

Mr. Michael McCabe

No.

Do they believe they should be involved?

Mr. Michael McCabe

Yes. We are the only organisation run mainly by people with disabilities and we should be at the table.

That is agreed so we should recommend this.

I have a vested interest in this because my nephew has cerebral palsy. He is also a close friend of mine and a delightful chap. I can praise the Centre for Independent Living because I know of the sterling work done at the centre in Sligo. It makes a huge difference to the lives of people.

With regard to the mobility allowance scheme and the motorised transport grant, I picked up on two matters during the earlier session with Dr. McLoughlin. He seems to understand the impact the suspension of these schemes will have on the people who need them, but the Department seems to be blinded by either legal or economic considerations. Can we not do the right thing if the legal or economic situations do not allow us to do so?

It troubles me that such stress was laid on the fact that these schemes are administrative, in other words they are not statutory schemes. I would argue, and the Centre for Independent Living should argue, that schemes such as the mobility allowance scheme and the motorised transport grant should be a right and not a concession. This is what administrative schemes means, that they are concessions and do not fit into the general income maintenance and welfare part of the State. They are concessions, which means they can be taken back without having to change the law. The witnesses must be very vigilant about this. It is one of the reasons I asked Dr. McLoughlin for a comprehensive list of all of the so-called administrative schemes. I am concerned other such schemes exist.

This decision is unfair and unjustifiable. If the witnesses and the committee can make people understand what this is about there would be very strong public backing for the restoration of these schemes. This must be done. I am not convinced the proposal to incorporate the mobility allowance scheme and motorised transport grant as part of the disability allowance would, of itself, solve the problem. There would be some reduction in administrative overhead processing but it certainly would not be of the order of the money the Government claims is needed to apply the scheme more widely. The Centre for Independent Living should be involved in the working group, which should examine the specific mobility needs of people of a certain age. This can be done without breaching any legislation.

I was at a presentation by the Department of Social Protection last week where someone stated the Department has more than 70 different schemes. I have no doubt if they were to be rationalised and streamlined every person depending on the Department of Social Protection could get a far bigger check at a far lower cost to the Exchequer but nobody has taken up this proposition.

It will be a battle to restore the scheme and grant and make no mistake about it. The Government is blinded by the economy at present. The Centre for Independent Living has offered to be part of the review body. I agree with my colleague that we should recommend to the Government that the witnesses form part of the review body, and I ask them to contact us about any help we can be.

Mr. Michael McCabe

I thank the Deputy for his kind words. We appreciate it. I have no doubt Dr. McLoughlin is a very good and understanding man, but he has a job to do and must answer to people. I do not believe it was his decision in the first place.

Mr. Gary Lee

Deputy Colreavy spoke about a legislative basis. Ireland is in the dark ages when it comes to legislative protection for people with disabilities. One only has to look to the jurisdiction beside us and other countries in Europe to see meaningful legislative protection for people with disabilities.

Personal assistant services, the allowances and these grants should have a legislative basis. Otherwise they can be removed with the stroke of a pen as we have seen. I concur with the view expressed in this regard.

I would like to make a small contribution before we conclude proceedings. I echo what Deputies Boyd Barrett and Colreavy have said. Participation in the review group would be very helpful because the centre told its story very well. More importantly, its representatives said and described well what it would mean for a person if he or she did not have the allowance or the motor transport grant. A picture was painted of the minibuses or ambulances instead of the independence as the justified and valid reason to enable people to go to places of work, study or for social purposes, just like any other citizen. Their case was made very well.

As Deputy Colreavy has said, one must raise the matter, magnify it but keep it simple. Do not have too many snowflakes in the blizzard. Please use pictures carefully and well and approach the right people. Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin showed empathy and understanding. Then one gets the fearfulness and anxiety that bureaucrats can frighten themselves with. They are presented with a legal situation and they freeze. One can set aside or tell the legal people to organise the law to suit what is right, proper and good. That is the job at hand and I give the group every encouragement in that regard.

As a by-product, one of the aspects that has stayed with me since last week - I do not know if the committee members will also remember it - was the fit-out of the Garda car fleet using a budget of €10 million. If the Garda Síochána buys a car for €20,000 each then the budget means that the force can buy 500 cars. Will only 300 people apply for the motorised transport grant on a three year cycle?

Mr. Gary Lee

The Acting Chairman is correct. It is 300 people.

If one gets 500 cars for €10 million then that calculation makes me want to check the figure given that it will cost €300 million for a three year cycle. The place would be awash with cars.

Does the motorised transport grant cover the cost of adapting a car?

That is right. It is not the actual car.

Mr. Michael Kennedy

No.

Does it cost about €3,000 per vehicle?

Mr. Michael Kennedy

That is a different scheme.

Mr. Michael Kennedy

Yes.

What about the sum of €1.3 million that was used when referring to the motorised transport grant?

Mr. Michael Kennedy

The sum that the Acting Chairman is talking about came from Revenue. It is a mobility grant.

Is it the mobility allowance?

Mr. Michael Kennedy

The mobility grant is provided by Revenue to adapt a vehicle. The Acting Chairman referred to adapting a car but that is not what this is. He is talking about a different scheme altogether.

Do we have a total of €10.3 million to cover the mobility allowance and the grant?

Mr. Gary Lee

I can clarify the matter. The mobility allowance costs €9 million and the motorised transport grant costs €1.3 million.

I am sorry for getting my wording wrong. I meant the motorised transport grant.

Mr. Gary Lee

That is it.

The one that refers to 300 units.

Mr. Gary Lee

That is it. There are 4,700 people in receipt of a mobility allowance and 300 people are in receipt of the motorised transport grant.

Is that for the adaption of cars or whatever?

Mr. Michael Kennedy

Yes.

Do we need to pass a motion or agree by consensus before the committee makes a recommendation? Perhaps the committee secretariat can inform us what the appropriate procedure is for doing so. Do we simply say that we recommend that the Centre for Independent Living is represented on the review group? Must we write to the Department and the Minister stating our recommendation?

The committee could agree a motion for that.

Mr. Michael Kennedy

With regard to the people that were mentioned, not many have a disability. They would be organisations and probably would not be people with disabilities. We should be present and we would ensure that somebody with a disability attended. I may be wrong.

I think so too because they can speak with authority and authentically about what the grants and allowances mean and equally what it means to not have them.

Can we make that proposal? It seems we have the agreement of the committee.

I take that as a proposal and it has been seconded by Deputy Colreavy.

Everybody present agrees with the proposal.

Can members suggest a brief wording?

Do we need to write it or can we just say it?

We can do it now.

I think that Deputy Colreavy will be kind enough to do so.

We can commence with, "That this committee requests of the Minister". Are we posing the question to the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, or the Minister for Health?

I would say the Minister and the Minister of State because they both attended.

That the committee recommends that the Minister for Health and the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, invites the Centre for Independent Living on to the review group that they have established to look at a replacement for the-----

There might be an official title for the review group.

-----motorised transport grant and mobility allowance. Do those words work?

Okay. It states:

That this committee requests the Minister for Health and the Minister of State to recommend that they invite the Centre for Independent Living to be part of the review group.

Please add the following: "devising a transport solution for people with disabilities".

We will not say anything about priority needs.

Can we add: "who are in receipt of the mobility allowance and the motor transport grant"?

I would not confine it to that because there are people who need it but cannot apply for it.

The wording is as follows:

That this committee requests the Minister for Health and the Minister of State to recommend that they invite the Centre for Independent Living to be part of the review group providing a transport solution for people with disabilities.

What did Dr. McLoughlin say?

To use the wording out of that.

On a grammatical point, we have the words "requests" and "recommends". We should just say that this committee "recommends". We do not need to repeat ourselves.

We should say that this committee recommends that the Centre for Independent Living be invited to participate in the review group seeking solutions-----

Should we not say "to be a member of the review group" because if one is just participating on it, one could be in and out.

That is a good point. We should state this committee recommends that the Centre for Independent Living be invited to be a member of the review group-----

One could say that. We should state that this committee recommends that the Centre for Independent Living be invited to be a member of the review group examining solutions to the mobility allowance and motor transport grant for people with disabilities.

We have captured those important ideas. We will just tidy it up. I take it the committee approves that.

Absolutely. Is the secretariat happy that is in order?

We have covered today's business. I would like to thank Mr. McCabe, Mr. Lee and Ms Lynch and all the visitors for their participation and attendance today. I also thank the committee secretariat.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 March 2013.
Barr
Roinn