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Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 2014

Annual Report 2013: Office of the Ombudsman

The main business of the meeting is consideration of Office of the Ombudsman's annual report for 2013. I remind all present, including members, media representatives and the public, that mobile phones and BlackBerry devices, must be turned off completely or switched to flight or safe mode as they interfere with the sound system, even if left in silent mode.

Cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. Peter Tyndall, ombudsman. Tá seisean chun an tuairisc bliaintiúil a chur os ár gcóir don chéad uair ins an ról atá aige faoi láthair. I also welcome the other members of the delegation: Ms Bernie McNally, director general, and Mr. Tom Morgan, senior investigating officer. I thank them for circulating their presentation in advance to members. I hope we will have a fruitful discussion on it.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that evidence connected only with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

I am very grateful for the opportunity to appear before the committee. This is the presentation of my first annual report on what was a significant year for the office with the extension of its remit following the enactment of the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill. With the permission of the committee, I will take the opportunity to talk about some current issues and some of those affecting my vision for the future of my office. My predecessor, Ms Emily O'Reilly, was responsible for the conduct of the office for much of the year covered by the report. I began in December. I pay tribute to Ms O’Reilly for her stewardship of the office and the very successful period during which she was responsible for it.

The office received more than 3,000 complaints in 2013. To a large extent, they followed the pattern one would have expected. The largest number of complaints involved the Department of Social Protection. As the Department has a very high level of engagement with members of the public, it is no surprise that it should feature so significantly. Other bodies in respect of which large numbers of complaints were received included the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Revenue Commissioners. Complaints concerning local authorities amounted to 495. This is no great surprise, given the extent of their engagement with members of the community. There were 310 complaints against the HSE. I will say rather more about the complaints against the HSE as I proceed.

Nearly 200 additional public bodies were brought within the jurisdiction of the office. Probably the most significant of these in terms of complaints was Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, in respect of which we received 150 complaints. It is well documented that it had some difficulties in the early part of its work. We found it good to work with and it made significant changes in response to the concerns raised by my office. We hope to see a reduction in the volume of substantiated complaints at least in the year ahead.

There was nothing strange or startling in the distribution of complaints among the Civil Service, local authorities and the HSE. Of the complaints received, 5.8% were related to third level education bodies. The balance was made up of complaints about a number of miscellaneous bodies. Speaking of the HSE, it has been a surprise to me that the volume of complaints about care and treatment has been so low. However, there are restrictions on my jurisdiction which may affect this. A very high proportion of complaints concerned financial matters. Medical cards are a recent topical example. I am surprised at the low numbers of complaints about care and treatment and intend to examine this in further detail this year. I do not believe the level of complaints reflects people's experience of the health service and I do not believe it is because the quality of health care is so good that there are few complaints to be made. Something is causing complaints to fail to find their way to my office, whether it is signposting or people simply being exhausted by the process of complaining. It is an area I will examine in some detail in the course of the current year.

In addition to dealing with formal complaints, staff from the office dealt with nearly 11,600 queries. This is a huge level of contact. Some of the contacts, as members might guess, are for other ombudsmans' services. People might come to us when they have a complaint more appropriate to GSOC, the Ombudsman for Children or even the financial ombudsman. We are quite proficient at helping complainants to find the right place to complain. Some cases concern people who have complained to my office before they have made their complaint to the body the subject of the said complaint. Dealing with these is a very significant part of the work of the office.

Members will have had the opportunity to read about some of the significant cases resolved. There was a very tragic case of a woman suffering from cancer who attended St. Vincent's University Hospital at Elm Park. She did not receive the follow-up diagnosis she should have. She was properly treated for a heart condition from which she was suffering but did not really have time to understand the diagnosis of cancer that she should have received. An apology was issued to the family for the poor treatment she had received prior to her death.

A case that is very topical in the current climate concerned the State Examinations Commission providing assistance for a student at short notice. I am aware of at least one case in the current round in which a student has received support as a consequence of the involvement of my office. Clearly, the normal timescales cannot apply because people do not want a report after the event. They actually need an intervention before it. We do not have time for investigations, but we are able to draw concerns to the attention of the examinations commission. On occasion, we can have its decision overturned in time for people to receive support during the examination.

There was a case in which a woman was incorrectly refused invalidity pension twice by the Department of Social Protection. While ours is not a compensation body or one which seeks to levy fines, where people have been denied benefits to which they were entitled or have lost out financially, it is our job to try to put them back in the position in which they would have been. In the instance in question, the arrears totalled more than €90,000, which is significant. We were very pleased to be able to resolve that case.

The final individual case I wish to consider involved a local authority imposing a time limit for local residency contrary to regulations within its housing allocations policy. It was not entitled to do so and a person was wrongly denied housing as a result. We were able to have that decision reversed. Importantly, we were also able to ensure other local authorities were not doing the same and that other people in County Laois who might have been similarly affected would not be affected in that way in the future.

It is that aspect of the office. It is not just about providing recompense for an individual but is also about making sure that systemic learning takes place. It is one of the key differences between the Office of the Ombudsman and some of the other routes to redress that might be available.

It is important to say something about the mobility allowance and motorised transport grants, to which this committee has given considerable attention. I am a bit concerned there has been some delay in finding a replacement for those schemes which were clearly in breach of the law. I am sure those are issues that the committee will wish to continue to pursue. I know it intends reporting at some point to the Dáil and I hope that it will be able to do that soon and that the replacement scheme which has been promised will be put in place. We were able to gain redress for some of the people in Donegal who we felt had missed out. The HSE agreed with that and we were able to find redress for them. The real concern I have is that people who might have been eligible for the schemes are missing out because there is no scheme.

Discretionary medical cards are another topic I want to address. We have been looking at the situation in respect of them and have received quite a number of complaints - 70 at one stage. I believe there are 40 currently within the office and I do not doubt that they will continue to come in although the recent decision to suspend the review is an important one.

I will make a couple of points. When we looked at the cases, we found that people had been awarded the discretionary cards originally but the files specifying the basis upon which they had been awarded those cards were no longer available. When one was comparing the decision not to award a card today, it was impossible to say whether the same things had been taken into consideration when the medical card was originally granted. We have a concern about process and the fairness of that process. We also found that with regard to the decision not to award a card, the decision of the medical officers was often simply recorded as a tick in a box and no explanation was given as to why having taken the circumstances of the individual into account, discretion had not been exercised. Again, that was a matter of considerable concern to us. We now have agreement that should the situation continue, at least an explanation will be given as to why the decision was taken. Those are issues relating to the decision to award a card or not.

One of the problems that people faced when they found they were being reviewed was that they often had medical cards with quite a long expiry date yet they found that they were being reviewed and the cards withdrawn long before the expiry date. One of the important learning points arising from this is that it is vital that the HSE explains to individuals with medical cards that they are subject to review, regardless of what the new arrangements for review are in the future. In light of all of the circumstances, when the consultation comes forward on whatever changes are made to the scheme, my office will have quite a lot to say in respect of how that scheme should be administered in the future to avoid the perceptions of unfairness that have undoubtedly been part of the recently suspended review.

One issue I spoke to the committee about when I first took up office was the issue of case books and issuing detailed information about all of the cases that are decided by my office and not just those that feature in the annual report or that become subject to public reports. I have not put it in my speaking notes but I should say that we are making good progress. As the committee is aware, we have to record a summary of each case that is examined in order for those summaries to be aggregated into a case book. That work is under way and I expect the first issue of the case book to be in the committee members' in-boxes in the autumn so I am very pleased that progress is being made on that. That was a commitment I gave to the committee when I last spoke to it.

I have also expressed my concern about issues around the privatisation of services and the way in which redress is dealt with. In particular, what brought it to my mind was the issue of Irish Water. In my other capacity as Information Commissioner, I was very pleased to note that Irish Water was brought into my jurisdiction so that people could ask for information. However, when Irish Water was transferred away from local authorities, access to my office in respect of complaints was lost and as yet, there is no formal route to redress for anyone with a complaint about Irish Water. My contention is that it should not been removed from my jurisdiction. There is no reason the route to redress should change because the provider is changing. There is an opportunity with the EU alternative dispute resolution directive to rethink how redress relating to services that have been privatised is offered.

It is very difficult to know how anybody might seek redress for failures in waste collection. Clearly, my view, as one would expect, is that access to independent redress via an Ombudsman for people using public services should be a sine qua non. There should be no discussion about it and I am disappointed that in some ways, it has inadvertently been lost. There was no reference to redress in the legislation that introduced Irish Water except in respect of water quality, which is a separate technical issue. Complaints about things like the installation of meters and billing, which could have come to my office when it was a local authority function, are now simply suspended until new legislation is introduced to address them so that is a concern of mine.

I am also still very keen to work with this committee, the Government and public bodies on the introduction of a standardised means of complaining about public services. There is a plethora of ways to complain and there is no clear indication as to why there is such variation. It just brings about confusion for members of the public. I would like to see it addressed and will continue to work to bring proposals forward to that effect. Making it easy to complain is one of the things that is quite important. We all believe that the public should have access to individual redress but we also know that people's complaints help us to identify where there are problems with public services and to make sure those are put right. The other idea of a single complaints portal based around the concept of Healthcomplaints.ie is one thing I would like to see brought forward in the future.

The importance of the independence of the Office of the Ombudsman cannot be underestimated. If people are to have confidence, they must believe the Ombudsman is independent of the bodies in its jurisdiction. Constitutional status would be a very good way not just of demonstrating that independence but securing it in a very meaningful and important fashion in the same way as the Comptroller and Auditor General is a constitutional office. I hope that this might be brought forward in the future. As I said at the beginning, my engagement with this committee - this relationship with the Oireachtas rather than with the Administration - is one of the very significant aspects of the independence of the Office of the Ombudsman and I am very glad to have had the opportunity to present the report to the committee today. I look forward to questions and a discussion.

I will now ask members for comments and questions. A range of issues is contained in the report and what Mr. Tyndall presented is just a flavour of it. It is a report that I have looked forward to for many years and I have encouraged as many members of the public as possible to engage with the Office of the Ombudsman. If Mr. Tyndall ever gets waste management, I wish him well because the way it is going with some of the companies at the moment, he will get 11,000 complaints every week in this city. I will ask members to indicate whether they would like to speak and call on Deputy Kirk.

I thank Mr. Tyndall for his presentation of the report which, as always, makes interesting reading. Members will be wrestling with individual cases like these in their respective constituencies.

In regard to historic work and filing systems, the Office of the Ombudsman has been in operation for 30 years. Are individual cases filed and retained for a specific period or when the files are closed do they leave the system? What procedures are used?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

The normal practice in the Ombudsman's office is not to keep the files but to retain the learning from them. Mr. Morgan can provide further details.

Mr. Tom Morgan

We have a records management policy. I understand we normally retain files for five years but we make provision on our systems to retain files if we feel a case is significant or involves a significant or systemic issue. We also maintain an electronic archive of cases going back a considerable amount of time.

I hope that we will have some good news for Mr. Tyndall. His predecessor, Ms Emily O'Reilly, and some of those who held the office before her, raised the issue of direct provision, which is the method we use to house asylum seekers when they come to these shores. We have included the issue in our work programme and have indicated that we want to consider whether it can be included in the Ombudsman's remit for handling complaints. Does Mr. Tyndall concur with what the previous Ombudsman has said about the issue of direct provision? We hope to hold hearings reasonably soon on the question of whether the remit should be extended.

Tugadh le fios dom le déanaí go raibh cás ag "Nuacht TG4" maidir le Údarás na Gaeltachta agus an bord nua ar an údarás. Nílim ag cur ceiste faoin gcinneadh a tógadh, ach faoin bpróiseas. D'ardaigh daoine ceist liom faoin bpróiseas agus an méid ama a thóg sé. Chuir siad ceisteanna maidir leis na gceapacháín nua ar an mbord agus an raibh siad polaitiúil agus faoin bpróiseas a bhí ann maidir le daoine a roghnú. Bhí deacracht acu leis an bpróiseas agus bhí deacracht acu eolas a fháil ón Data Commissioner. Bhí moill fhada le sin. Deirtear liom freisin go raibh moill fhada in Oifig an Ombudsman maidir leis an gcás sin.

Chomh maith le sin, tuigtear dom go bhfuil cás eile tagtha go dtí Oifig an Ombudsman, a bhaineann le iar-cheannaire ar choláiste samhraidh a bhí i gConamara agus deacrachtaí maidir le ionsaithe gnéis, a fógraíodh sna meáin. Tá an duine sin imithe ar shlí na fírinne. Ba bhreá leis na daoine i gceist a fháil amach cé chomh fada agus a thógfaidh sé fiosrúchán den chineál sin a dhéanamh. Is féidir liom seo a mhíniú arís i mBéarla más gá.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

I have the gist of it and I am sure Mr. Morgan can help me. I went to summer school in the Gaeltacht but it was rather a long time ago.

I appreciate that Mr. Tyndall told us on a previous occasion about his interest in the Welsh language. The issues I raise pertain to Irish language cases. Mr. Morgan may be able to address the two specific language cases I raised. On a more general question, if somebody takes a case as Gaeilge is it taking longer to process due to a lack of people with Irish language abilities? The people in "Nuacht TG4" have pointed out to me that it was a lengthy period before they got a finding on a case they brought and the people who are currently bringing a case are wondering how long it might take to have it addressed.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Several points can be made on this subject. My recollection of the TG4 case is that it did not take longer because it was in Irish. I have an concern about the length of time it is taking us to deal with cases in general. I spoke about the reader issue for the leaving certificate and our capacity to fast track cases. The reality is that at one point the office was 16% down on its staffing. One should also have regard for the work of the Information Commissioner. There are different teams in the office. The impact of that was producing unacceptable delays.

Wearing my Information Commissioner hat, I have given a commitment that no case will be more than one year old at the end of this year. I cannot give that commitment on the Ombudsman side because there is a backlog of over 100 cases. Some of those are in groups and a number of them will be resolved at once but the reality is that the volume of work was overcoming the capacity of the office to deal with it. That is a matter of deep concern for me. It is something I have addressed in previous positions and I am working with colleagues on dealing with the historical backlog. It is not acceptable but it is understandable. It has been there for some time. It is difficult to work without sufficient resources, as members will understand. I have to make sure that I have enough people who can do the job properly.

The Ombudsman's office changed its procedures substantially three years ago to make it more efficient. The backlog has decreased notably since then. The question arises of whether we can squeeze further efficiencies. The problem that always arises with an Ombudsman office is that we have to be careful in turning cases over quickly that we continue to do our job to the level of quality required and that we are not turning away cases we ought to be investigating more thoroughly. We are conducting a process review to see if there is any way to achieve this objective, such as through further automation. It is, therefore, not so much a question of working as Gaeilge as that the average length of time we take to deal with complaints has to be reduced. That is a hard nut to crack.

Mr. Tom Morgan

We have an Irish language scheme because we are subject to the Language Commissioner's office. At it happens, I engaged with that office last week when it came to audit our procedures and resources. I will not pre-empt what it will set out in its final report but it appeared to be quite happy with us.

I come across a large number of the cases we receive in Irish. The fact that something is in Irish does not delay a case. We are happy with the level of expertise we possess in-house and we also have a contract with a translation company if we require further services. One issue about which we may become concerned is that a number of senior staff who are fluent in Irish and can deal with these cases will be retiring in the next one or two years. We are keeping our eye on the ball in that respect to replenish those resources where we can, particularly in regard to Irish language expertise.

I heard a number of compliments about the office's work. A number of people have told me that when they contacted the office as Gaeilge they received a very good service. On the more general issue, do issues arise in regard to staffing at the office? Realistically, what would it hope for as a staffing complement? The Language Commissioner has advised us that he needed X number of staff to carry out his work properly. I take it that the Ombudsman's office is understaffed at present. What does Mr. Tyndall regard as the ideal complement of staff, is he receiving co-operation from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in this regard and when would he expect to have a full complement?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

We have received a good response on the Information Commissioner side and we now have five additional posts in respect of the new jurisdiction. However, in respect of the new jurisdiction on the Ombudsman side there was not a similar increase in posts. At present we are some way short of our establishment figure. We currently have 95 staff out of an establishment figure of 107. That is a substantial gap. Prior to the increase in our jurisdiction, 107 staff might have been sufficient but there is a substantial gap between the level of resources we need to do our job and the resources we currently possess. I suspect we will also need to invest in information technology because one of the ways we can make the office more efficient, and partially address the question of archiving, is to do more of the work in an IT enabled way.

We also need investment in IT to enable us to get to the cutting edge, of which we are some way short.

Will Mr. Tyndall address the issue of complaints about direct provision accommodation?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Ms McNally will answer that question.

Ms Bernie McNally

That is an area about which the previous Ombudsman spoke. In many other jurisdictions ombudsmen have jurisdiction in the asylum area. It was considered for inclusion in the last Bill, but that legislation had been in preparation for 24 years. In the end, the previous Ombudsman made a decision that perhaps it was better to make progress on the less controversial issues and revisit the more controversial ones. At the time the Department of Justice and Equality had other plans and because we gathered from our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that there could be some resistance to the Ombudsman having jurisdiction in the area, we considered it might be one to which we could come back. It is one the new Ombudsman would like to revisit. He has had some early discussions with the Department which introduces legislation for our office.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

I mentioned earlier that independent redress mechanisms should be available to those using public services. It is all the more important when they are not willing users of public services but are in a vulnerable and difficult position. My view is that there are a number of key areas, not just asylum but elsewhere, where redress mechanisms that must be seen to be independent are not in place. Many ombudsman institutions worldwide have extended powers in these areas precisely because of the level of vulnerability of the individuals involved and their lack of a voice. That is why the former Ombudsman called for this change and I certainly will support it, whatever it is. My personal view is that it should be an independent redress mechanism via the Office of the Ombudsman, but there must certainly be an independent mechanism for the individuals concerned.

I welcome the Ombudsman and his team and thank him for his presentation. I refer to the issue of discretionary medical cards. As the Ombudsman pointed out, the review process has been paused. Considering the number of complaints received, the 40 he is dealing with is an extraordinarily low number, but people have been vocal with their local public representatives about the issue because of the urgency attached to some cases. I am particularly concerned about his finding that discretionary medical cards have been granted and then withdrawn, but when he checks why a medical card was awarded, bearing in mind that every applicant exceeds the income threshold and discretion kicks in on hardship grounds, he cannot find out why, even though this affects the public purse. Can he shed more light on why the body processing these applications does not have crucial and pivotal information on the granting of discretionary medical cards? It is extraordinary that the organisation has no paperwork to back up the approval of such a medical card in the first place. This is a major concern and points to a grave problem which is manifesting itself in people walking through the doors of our constituency offices.

The Ombudsman has said he is dealing with 40 complaints, but he referred to engagement in the past two years on practices. What recommendations has he made to the HSE and which recommendations has it agreed to implement? This problem is alive and well, which is why there has been a critical intervention to pause reviews, but that still does not seem to be getting to the heart of the problem, which is a fair definition of "hardship" because people who need medical cards on hardship grounds should be receiving them. That is the source of the frustration. What has been the feedback from the HSE on the Ombudsman's recommendations?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

The reason the files are not available seems to be the process of centralisation of the consideration of discretionary medical cards. Clearly, it is not for me to answer on behalf of the HSE, but the point at which these files cease to be available seems to be the one at which the process of reviewing and awarding medical cards was centralised. What happened to the local files is something we have not been able to establish. All we know is that they are no longer available. That is something the Deputy may wish to put directly to the HSE, but it makes it next to impossible to determine whether comparable judgment is being used when the original decision is compared to the contemporary decision. It seems the files failed to be centralised at the point at which the consideration process was centralised. As an office, we cannot cast any light on where the files are and what happened to them. They are simply no longer available; that is when they went missing. We do not know why and how.

Has the Ombudsman encountered this in many or in all cases where a medical card was awarded prior to centralisation?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

In the majority of cases. It is impossible to say how the original decision was taken. Therefore, it is difficult to see whether there is something in the new decision that was not taken into account previously because we simply do not know what was taken into account previously.

There are other aspects of the work of the HSE in dealing with discretionary medical cards that I have addressed in my notes. Clearly, the failure to place detailed explanations on the files as to why discretion was not exercised is a concern. We have obtained agreement that they will now be included, although the review has been suspended. However, we obtained agreement and they were being included prior to the suspension of the review. That is in the nature of the recommendations we made that were accepted.

The reason people are going to Oireachtas Members rather than to us is they probably realise some of the changes do not relate to process. Clearly, discretion was being exercised in different ways in different parts of the country and when the process was centralised and a more a rules-based way of doing it was applied, inevitably some people who had been awarded medical cards in the past were not awarded them. Our role as an office is simply, first, to look at whether this complies with the legislation and, second, whether it is fair. That goes beyond whether it complies with the legislation.

We had concerns that the way in which discretion was being exercised was too rigid. From an Ombudsman's perspective, if people choose not to exercise discretion in every case, that will be classed as maladministration, even if it is not in breach of the legislation. There is discretion which should be exercised in the way the Deputy described in looking at hardship because, as she said, the people concerned were above the income thresholds.

Those are the kinds of issues that we raised. Some of them relate not to how the scheme was being administered but to people's concerns about whether the criteria, which are purely income based and hardship based - it was felt that further pressures on people's financial situation should be looked at - were the appropriate ones. Those have been properly pursued in another domain and will, I am sure, continue to be vigorously pursued in the weeks and months ahead.

What action or steps were taken by the HSE to address concerns? Mr. Tyndall has covered the issue of the lost files, but he said that the amount of information that the medical officer was giving was found to be unsatisfactory. Have those matters been addressed? What steps have been taken?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Yes, it has agreed that no files will be completed in future without an explanation as to why the decision was taken not to exercise discretion and what was taken into account in considering whether to exercise discretion. We secured those changes.

Are things square between Mr Tyndall and the HSE on this, aside from those 40 cases?

Can I make a suggestion? We need to deliberate after the meeting today because a number of actions arise from the annual report that we need to follow up with the Government and seek assurance on the five key points raised in the annual report. Perhaps it would be helpful if Mr. Tyndall were to send us a brief report after the meeting today outlining the outstanding issues that he remains concerned about. Our committee can then engage with the HSE and the Department to see why they cannot address those issues. Would that be a way of dealing with it?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Yes.

We will do that. Did Deputy Mulherin want to deal with the motorised transport question?

Yes, and the mobility issue. Mr. Tyndall's predecessor made the finding that the schemes as operating were in breach of the Equal Status Acts because they excluded a body of persons without just grounds. We see that the schemes have been closed to new applicants. Surely we are talking about an inequality there. I am sure that there are people out there who should be in a position to avail of the schemes. With the length of time that has passed, one now finds people who have been discriminated against because they are closed off from the schemes. Is that not a concern of the Ombudsman at this point?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Yes, it is. Sorry, I thought that I had made that clear. The fact remains that we hoped for much more rapid replacement of the schemes. Clearly, replacement of the schemes is not a matter for us but for the Government. We are surprised and disappointed at the time that it has taken for the scheme to be replaced. I know that the committee will take evidence on that in the near future and will no doubt press on it. It is not discriminatory in one sense in that if nobody can access the scheme, it cannot discriminate against anyone. Deputy Mulherin is right that there are people who should properly have access to a scheme of this kind but who cannot access it because there is no scheme. We would very much like to see that redressed as soon as possible.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

The fact remains that we hoped for much more rapid replacement of the schemes. Clearly, replacement of the schemes is not a matter for us but for the Government. We are surprised and disappointed at the time that it has taken for the scheme to be replaced. I know that the committee will take evidence on that in the near future and will no doubt press on it. It is not discriminatory in one sense: in that if nobody can access the scheme, it cannot discriminate against anyone, but Deputy Mulherin is precisely right that there are people who should properly have access to a scheme of this kind but who cannot access it because there is no scheme. We would very much like to see that redressed as soon as possible.

As the Ombudsman noted in his opening comments, we will have the Secretary General before us in private session, so we intend to continue to pursue this matter. This committee shares the concerns about the delays in putting in place the new schemes. We will probe those matters and complete our report. We are happy enough to delay making our report until we have seen what the shape of the new scheme will be. When we have that, we will at some point complete that report, and I reassure Mr. Tyndall that the lessons to be learned will be dealt with.

Speaking in my other role, I welcome the report. I shall not go over ground that others have covered on the discretionary medical card and the mobility allowance. I am interested in two areas. The first is the outstanding cases which Emily O'Reilly as Ombudsman had raised over the years and which to date have not been fully concluded. We have just talked about one of them, the mobility allowance, but others have been raised. One that jumps out at me and which I have raised here, and I know that it is still being pursued, is the Lost at Sea scheme. Is there continuing tracking of those matters on which the Government did not take action or fully deal with in the years since the Office of the Ombudsman has been making annual reports?

The second area is one which the committee should look at and where it may be able to help the Ombudsman. The report mentions the idea of a public services Ombudsman as opposed to a public sector Ombudsman. It is an interesting suggestion; I had not thought of it in that way before. The distinction is correct, because we are dealing with a lot of privatisation or contracting out of public services. There are plans for further contracting out. I do not know whether the Ombudsman is aware of JobPath, a scheme run by the Department of Social Protection. A tender process has been completed, but we do not know the result. The services which those who are unemployed will be able to avail themselves of in trying to get back into employment will be contracted out to a private sector organisation, or perhaps a combination of the private and public sector. Once a provider of those services goes beyond the public sector, it is more difficult for us in the Dáil to hold it to account. Obviously, the same applies to the Office of the Ombudsman in many ways. Mr. Tyndall mentioned waste services. Anyone who lives in Dublin will understand the chaos that has ensued since responsibility for collection and disposal has passed to a private company. While the overall responsibility for waste management still lies with the council, it is only in so much that it ensures that it is done rather than ensuring that standards are kept up. We should look at whether it is a major change for legislation and what the options are in other things. Perhaps Mr. Tyndall would elaborate on what was a detailed part of his presentation.

Mr. Peter Tyndall

Starting with Lost at Sea, it is a matter of concern to me that that report's recommendations remain unimplemented. On the issue of a public services Ombudsman, I take the strong view that the findings should be binding unless challenged in court. The legislation would need to be amended to do that, as is the case in some instances. In that sense, it should not be possible for a body in jurisdiction to decide to disagree with the findings and ignore them. If it disagreed with the findings, there should be a formal process of challenge. That would give greater authority to the findings. It is right in a democracy that decisions about recommendations fall to the relevant democratic bodies, be they local authorities or, in this case, the Government. The previous Ombudsman made the recommendation; she put forward an extremely well argued case in her report. This committee is to some extent a product of Lost at Sea and concern about the fact that that recommendation was ignored. I will certainly support it in any way I can. We should all continue to work to find redress for those people who have suffered the injustice. I hope that members of the committee will continue to do that. Thankfully, during the 30 years of the office's existence, there have been very few examples of reports where the recommendations have not been accepted and implemented. I am not sure that we have always been as rigorous as we should have been in following up to make sure people have done what they said they would do, but at least they have said they would do it. There have been very few instances where people refused to accept findings and implement recommendations.

As a result, they are of particular significance. We have talked about two, the lost at sea scheme and the motorised transport grant. I hope we can work with the committee to make some progress on both of those. It would be disappointing to see them left unremedied.

Privatisation is an issue that is troubling ombudsman’s offices across the globe. It is not unique to Ireland, although Ireland has gone further and faster than other countries in areas such as waste management. People have redress one day for a service they rely on, such as the water coming into their homes, but the next day they may not. What most troubled me about it was that nobody even consulted the office. It was just the case that one day we did not have jurisdiction. Nobody had even talked to us about it. Redress for individuals using services is often an afterthought. People depend on waste collection, water and the other public utilities - electricity, gas, the post, transport and so on - and should have access to independent redress on them. That should be through a public service ombudsman. There is no reason to make the landscape of provision so complex that it is difficult even to know who is providing the service. It should not be difficult for people to know where to go to complain. I am pleased the committee is thinking of taking up this issue. There is a particular opportunity at the moment because the State has to decide how it will implement the EU directive on alternative dispute resolution. I hope the opportunity will be taken to create clarity and bring into being a more direct route to redress.

I thank the Ombudsman for his presentation, which I have read. I apologise for being in and out of the meeting due to attendance in the Dáil.

In respect of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, apart from the appeals process for the new land parcel identification system, LPIS, there are internal departmental reviews, but ultimately these go through the Ombudsman’s office. It is not a significant issue for most of the country, but in my area on the western seaboard it is a major issue. There may be thousands of farmers whose income has been reduced and who could face retrospective penalties. Is there a dedicated unit in the Ombudsman’s office to deal with what could be many hundreds of appeals - maybe more - on the LPIS single farm payment system? The Ombudsman mentions in his report that he has more than 200 cases from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Do a high proportion of those relate to the LPIS?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

As a general rule, because complaints are episodic, there might be a lot of complaints on one topic one month and a lot about something else the next month. Most of the staff in the office investigate whatever complaint is before them. Certain individuals have expertise and can advise the staff dealing with complaints in a particular field.

Ms Bernie McNally

The single farm payment scheme last year accounted for approximately 16% of our agriculture complaints. We have not had anything like the number of complaints the Deputy is talking about. We have a triaging or screening system whereby we sort out some complaints fairly quickly and move them on to another unit. Should those complaints emerge after the appeals process we will certainly consider them, and we may group them because there might be hundreds on a similar issue. If we can get to the kernel of the issue in sorting out one complaint, that might help us to sort out 40 or 50 complaints. There are not many of them at the moment. They may be going through the appeals process.

Mr. Tom Morgan

We normally cannot take them until the appeals are exhausted.

Has the Department communicated with the office to the effect that there could be hundreds of complaints on this issue?

Ms Bernie McNally

No. We have received no communication about it. Now that the Deputy has raised it, we will alert people in the office to the possibility that these complaints will arrive.

I will recommend that the clerk to the committee meet with the witnesses soon. He has considerable experience of working in these areas in respect of innovations and so on. I could also attend that meeting.

Will the Ombudsman write to us about any outstanding issues relating to medical cards which have not been addressed? We can then write to the Department.

The Ombudsman’s report has covered several key points: the extension of the Ombudsman’s jurisdiction to include public services provided by private bodies; the opportunities offered by the EU directive on alternative dispute resolution; the benefits of adopting a standardised approach to complaint handling across the public sector; the development of a single portal for complaints; and the benefits of affording the office constitutional status, with the Ombudsman becoming a constitutional office in the same way as the Comptroller and Auditor General. With the agreement of the committee, I suggest that we write to the relevant Ministers seeking their opinions on those recommendations and asking whether they would be minded to facilitate them. We will do that today and then write to the Ombudsman and have a dialogue about these matters.

Are there any other matters the Ombudsman would like us to consider on the basis of his report today?

Mr. Peter Tyndall

No. I thank the Chairman. That is a very comprehensive response.

I thank the Ombudsman, Ms McNally and Mr. Morgan for coming here today. We greatly value our partnership with the Ombudsman and take seriously our responsibility to follow up on the concerns and recommendations that he raises with us. We will meet him again soon to exchange ideas.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.18 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 June 2014.
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