Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jan 2010

Electoral System: Discussion.

I welcome everyone to the meeting. The committee resumes its hearings on the review of the electoral system. Today it will consider the voting age for elections here and whether the age should be reduced from 18 years of age to allow 16 and/or 17 year olds to vote in elections. In general, society considers that 16 and 17 year olds are capable of making a number of decisions about themselves. Some of these decisions constitute taking a significant degree of responsibility. Where, then, should voting fit into this? Young people are allowed to work, pay taxes and get married. They can leave school and can do several other things. While 18 is the most common minimum age for voting throughout the world, in 2007 Austria adopted a voting age of 16 for all elections, the only country in the European Union which has done so. Many youth-led organisations have been campaigning for a reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16 years of age, arguing that this would help young people to connect with the political process. With our panel today, the committee will consider all of these matters.

I welcome Professor Jonathan Tonge, from the Department of Politics, University of Liverpool, who chaired the youth citizenship commission in the United Kingdom that considered whether the voting age should be reduced to 16 years of age. I also welcome His Excellency, Dr. Walter Hagg, Ambassador of Austria to Ireland and thank him for coming. From the National Youth Council of Ireland vote at 16 campaign, I welcome Ms Clodagh O'Brien and Ms Maria Kelly and thank them for coming. I welcome the president of the Union of Students in Ireland, Mr. Peter Mannion. We are very grateful to all of the witnesses for taking the time to come to the meeting. We have received their submissions and distributed them to the members.

Before we begin, I wish to inform the delegates that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but that same privilege does not apply to delegates appearing before it. I invite Professor Tonge, Ambassador Hagg, the National Youth Council of Ireland and the Union of Students in Ireland to speak in that order. After that there will be questions and comments from members.

Professor Jonathan Tonge

I am grateful for the invitation to appear before the committee. There is a brief PowerPoint presentation that should illuminate what the Youth Citizenship Commission in Britain attempted to achieve.

There has been a growing debate in Britain as to whether the voting age should be lowered to 16, part of a broader debate about youth non-participation in politics. The British Government issued a Green Paper in July 2007 that promised the establishment of a Youth Citizenship Commission. That commission reported to the Prime Minister and other Ministers in summer 2009. The terms of reference included a definition of citizenship for young people. There has been an ongoing debate in Britain about the concept of citizenship, which has formed a compulsory part of the school curriculum since 2002. We also wanted to look at how to increase young people's participation in politics more broadly — both formal, conventional politics and unconventional forms of politics. The element then that dominated media coverage was an examination of the lowering of the voting age to 16.

The reason the vote at 16 issue has been so vexed in Britain and elsewhere is the problem of diminished voting among the young. This was not always a problem. As recently as 1997 there was not a great deal of difference between the voting rates of 18-24 year olds and the broader population. At the last couple of elections in Britain, however, there has been a substantial drop in voting by 18-24 year olds to the point where it is only a minority taste, with only 37% of them voting at the last general election. Moreover, in terms of certainty to vote at the next election, the low figure for this age bracket indicates that increasingly they do not regard it as a civic duty while older people still do, particularly 65-74 year olds.

We summarised the problem as one of voter participation. For 18-24 year olds, participation is now 20% less than overall turnout, with not many absolutely certain to vote and few presenting their views through the formal political channels of local councillor or Member of Parliament. This is a problem because it reflects the issue of serial abstention — 80% of young people who did not vote in 2001 at the general election did not vote in 2005.

Why are young people being turned off by politics and what can be done about it? Part of the problem is that we wait too long to give people the vote. If we linked citizenship education better to the voting process, people would vote. If 16 year olds developed the habit, they would carry on voting through the rest of their lives — that was the argument put forward by the votes at 16 lobby. Increasingly, there was pressure for votes at 16 during the course of the commission's life. The list of parties in favour of voting at 16 in Britain includes the Labour Party, even though it established us, a commission, to look at this, the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and Plaid Cymru.

This issue exercised much of the commission's time. It is fair to say we were divided on the issue of lowering the voting age. The key arguments of the voting at 16 lobby were that it is a breach of human rights not to permit voting at 16. That argument was rejected by the commission, partly because there are only seven countries in the world that permit voting at 16, Austria being one, which would mean 142 countries were in breach of human rights by not allowing votes at 16. We did not find that argument convincing and rejected it.

The second argument related to responsibilities at different ages. It was pointed out that it is possible to join the British armed forces at 16. That is true but it is not possible to see frontline service because the British Government is a signatory to the UN convention in this area. Parental permission is also required to enlist at 16. We did not see that as a convincing argument to lower the voting age.

A stronger argument by the votes at 16 lobby was that younger people must vote because of the imbalance caused by an ageing society. We felt that was a strong argument, with the electorate being dominated by the over 65s.

The next argument was that young people can work and pay tax. Again we did not regard that as convincing. The school leaving age is about to be raised in Britain to 18 and there are fewer people now working and paying tax at age 16 and 17 than ever in British history. We do not see it as a logical argument, therefore, for lowering the voting age.

The final argument from the votes at 16 lobby was that citizenship education ought to lead to voting. Undoubtedly that is a strong argument, there is citizenship education from age 11 and the Goldsmith commission last year recommended extending citizenship education to primary level. Therefore, it seemed perverse not to allow votes until 18, despite years of citizenship education. We felt that was a strong argument.

Public opinion, however, is divided and it would be interesting to see a comparison with the Republic of Ireland on the issue. In terms of who wants votes at 16, 16 and 17 year olds themselves in Britain want it, with 53% in favour, while a substantial minority, 40%, did not want the age to be lowered. Public opinion does not greatly assist us. Every age category above the age of 18 is opposed to lowering the voting age. The electoral commission conducted an investigation in 2004 and found that the population as a whole was satisfied with the voting age remaining at 18. Public opinion does not assist us in the sense that the beneficiaries of votes at 16 are in favour, although not overwhelmingly, while those 18 and over are opposed to the point where only 6% of over 65s are in favour of a reduction in the voting age.

Given this, what did the commission recommend? In some ways it can be argued this was a cop out but we wanted to start at first base. The first problem in Britain is not so much people voting or not voting, the problem with young people is that often they are not registered to vote. Of 16 and 17 year olds, 28% were not even put on the electoral register by their families and were not eligible to vote by dint of not being registered. A person is supposed to come on the electoral register at age 16 in readiness to vote at 18. We suggested that the method of electoral registration must change, with schools placing people on the electoral register as part of citizenship education, as part of a process accompanied by a ceremony if necessary. That was an important recommendation.

We argued that in the context of devolved power, Westminster should consider transferring the powers over the voting age to Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland. Why should London decide the age at which people should vote? That would be useful beyond the devolved context because we would see if votes at 16 work. If a large number of young people take the opportunity to vote, the experiment could then be legitimately extended to general elections. There is a risk that we would be using Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland as guinea pigs but it would be useful.

Part of the problem is that there are different ages of responsibility in so many areas. A person cannot buy cigarettes until he or she is 18, he or she can join the army at 16 but cannot see frontline service. We recommended that the Government review the age of responsibility across a range of areas, not just in terms of voting but more broadly.

In terms of the vote at 16, we recommend that devolved institutions should be able to decide their voting age. The biggest single problem at present is not voting at 16 but getting young people to register to vote. We need improved citizenship education in schools to give people the knowledge. Those 16 and 17 year old people who said they were against lowering the voting age said they did not feel the need to vote because they did not know enough about politics. Although we have produced a quite substantial vote at 16 report, the bigger report was more broadly based on how to improve young people's participation in politics beyond the voting age.

I thank Professor Tonge. I am sure that presentation will raise a few questions. I invite His Excellency, Ambassador Walter Hagg to make his presentation.

H.E. Dr. Walter Hagg

Thank you. I am sorry that a small 'flu has deprived me of a clear voice but, nevertheless, I hope the committee will understand me. I have listened carefully to what Professor Tonge said. It seems that Austria is the only member state which has introduced a voting age of 16 for parliamentary elections. Let me briefly describe the background to this. In 2007, legislation came into force which introduced a number of changes to increase the participation and make democratic institutions more transparent. In particular, the opening hours of polling stations were adjusted but also the system of voting cards was introduced which enables voters to use any polling station, not just the appropriate one in Austria. A postal ballot was introduced whereby one can cast one's vote through letter from wherever one is in Austria or abroad. Needless to say, every Austrian citizen has the voting right, irrespective of whether he has his residence in Austria or abroad. Voting by postal ballot was requested by the People's Party, the centre-right christian democrats. The Social Democratic Party, on the other side, requested that voting be introduced for 16 year old people.

It was in the parliamentary elections of September 2008, that for the first time this new regulation applied, namely, the voting age was changed from 18 years to 16 years. The result of these parliamentary elections is quite interesting in respect of Austrian domestic policies. The first and strongest party in the last Austrian parliamentary elections remains the Social Democratic Party with almost 30% of the votes but minus six. The second party was the christian democratic centre right People's Party with 26% of the vote, followed by the two populist right-ring parties, the Freedom Party and the Greens.

There was intense post-election analysis of the behaviour of the young voters which led to different conclusions. The following appear to be the main elements. The youngest voters, namely those between 16 and 18 years of age, generally showed a keen interest in politics and political participation. At the same time they were aware that their political knowledge often is inadequate and they, therefore, formulated the wish to obtain better and more information. The young voters distinguished clearly between election rhetorics and substantial information. Specific criticism was directed towards schools which in the eyes of the young voters generally offer insufficient information about political matters. Two-thirds of the young voters showed a keen interest in the election campaign. The same number seems to be satisfied with the political system and with democracy. They showed trust in the political institutions of the republic, in particular in social partnership. Considerable dissatisfaction has, however, been expressed at the performance of political actors. Equally the young voters show little trust in the political parties and politicians. According to opinion polls, only 20% of young voters trust in them.

A majority of the young voters had the impression that the political establishment and the political parties did not perceive them properly and did not take them seriously enough. Half of the young voters were of the opinion that politicians did not care about issues important to them. Three quarters of the young voters maintained that politicians should care more about such questions as training and employment as well as unemployment of young people, equality and poverty. Most analysis, after the parliamentary elections in September 2008, came to the conclusion that the turnout of the young voters between 16 and 18 years of age was roughly as high as the average, namely around 77%.

There was a widespread impression in the Austrian media that the young voters had predominantly voted for rather right-wing parties. What seems to be clear is that the party most favoured by young voters was the Austrian People's Party which is not the far right party but the centre-right party, the Christian Democrats and this is true, in particular, for the rural areas. The so-called far-right or populist right-wing parties, Freedom Party of Austria FPÖ and BZÖ also performed well with the young voters, in particular with those already in employment, whereas students between 16 and 18 years of age rather preferred to vote for the Green Party. In any case, the Social Democratic Party, which corresponds to the Labour Party, enjoyed the lowest rate of favour from the young voters. This was the party that had strongly suggested the introduction of the voting age of 16.

Some observers have noted that lowering the voting age to 16 has led to a certain politicisation of schools. One part of the young people, certainly a minority, and Professor Tonge has mentioned it in the case of Great Britain, had voiced opposition to the lowering of the voting age. They feel that the new voting power is simply too much for them. They have said openly that they were not interested in politics but because of the legislation they feel they have a duty to cast their vote and it is a dilemma for them.

I thank Dr. Hagg. There were some unusual findings at the end in those opinion polls. We will delve more into them later. I invite Ms Clodagh O'Brien from the National Youth Council of Ireland to make her presentation.

Ms Clodagh O’Brien

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute. I am here to speak on the vote at 16 campaign and the issue of reducing the voting age to 16 in Ireland. I work for the National Youth Council of Ireland. We welcome the fact that the committee is examining the issue and we look forward to the establishment of an independent electoral commission in the very near future. We launched the "Vote at 16 — A New Age in Voting" campaign in January last year to a huge political and media furore. We believe the right to vote in all elections and referenda should be extended to people of 16 and 17 years of age. I am accompanied by Ms Maria Kelly from the youth campaign group who will present our campaign.

Ms Maria Kelly

There are several reasons we believe the voting age should be reduced. If young people, aged 16 and 17, are granted the right to vote they will have a direct say in our democracy and have a stake in determining the future of their local community and country. The earlier young people engage in democracy and politics the greater the chance that they will promote and sustain a lifelong interest and commitment to voting and participating in the voting process. The argument used is that young people of this age lack the maturity to vote, but we strongly disagree with this. We accept that young people are less likely to vote than older age groups. However, large numbers of young people vote. In the last general election over 50% voted, which is relative to the general electorate. We must encourage that trend and change the registration system to make it easier for them to vote.

Young people are best placed to advise and inform decisions that directly affect them. A vote is one of the best ways for a citizen to influence what happens locally and nationally. If 16 or 17 year olds can leave school, be in full-time employment, be held criminally responsible, pay taxes or join the Army, they should be allowed to vote. Unlike previous generations, young people are now much more informed. They undertake courses in school such as civic, social and political education, CSPE, and also have access to local and national media along with the Internet, where they can access information and engage in politics. A practical benefit of voting rights at 16 years of age would be that it would make the electoral registration system much easier. Most people aged 16 are still in school and can be easily added to the register. The reason so many people aged 18 are not added to the register is that they are generally moving away from home to go to college, training, work and so forth, and thus fall between the administrative cracks.

There has been a movement across Europe towards granting the right to vote to people aged 16 and 17. In many cases, it has been successful. In Austria, Guernsey, Jersey, the Isle of Man and parts of Germany and Switzerland the voting age has been reduced to 16 years. The ombudsman for children in Norway is campaigning to lower the voting age. In the UK a task force was established by the Government following a successful campaign to examine the issue of lowering the voting age to 16.

The voting patterns of young people in the 2008 Austrian election were not much different from older groups. It was found that younger people were more likely to vote for the Opposition parties than older age groups, but percentages were not significantly different, first-time voters were well prepared but wanted more information about institutions and parties' aims and differences, and the election campaign did not pay much attention to issues that could be of interest for the youngest voters, such as employment, equality and apprenticeships.

Currently, there is a big problem with the electoral system in this country. Up to 26% of young people aged 18 to 25 are not registered to vote. Lower voter turnout is most acute in the 18 to 21 years age group, with up to 36% not being registered. Among 22 to 25 year olds, 17% were not registered to vote. What must change in the system? The right to vote must be extended to 16 and 17 year olds to increase voter turnout, involve young people in politics and society, give young people a voice and encourage politicians to address youth issues such as unemployment, mental health, equality and so forth. In addition, the electoral registration system must be urgently overhauled. This should be a priority for the independent electoral commission, with particular focus on ensuring young people are registered to vote. Automatic electoral registration should be examined for all those reaching the voting age. This could easily be done as everybody in Ireland has a PPS number, which could be used as a basis for registration and identification. A remote, on-line voting system should be piloted, similar to the system introduced in Estonia. In our report, over 73% of young people stated that on-line voting was either a very important or important measure in encouraging voter participation.

We believe the independent electoral commission must be established as soon as possible. We are already four months into the one-year deadline provided for its establishment in the revised programme for Government. It is vital that young people and youth organisations are involved in the work of the independent electoral commission on these issues to ensure their voices are heard. We are due to meet the Minister, Deputy John Gormley, in February and we look forward to discussing this issue in more detail.

Thank you. Finally, I invite Mr. Peter Mannion, president of the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, to make his contribution.

Mr. Peter Mannion

I thank the committee for inviting me to make this presentation. USI has no official policy on the voting age as our members simply have not raised it at our congresses. We receive plenty of motions regarding voting for the Seanad and weekend voting but none on the lowering of the voting age. We therefore held a focus group on the issue, which was conducted in National University of Ireland, NUI, Galway. The reason we carried it out there is that statistics provided from the Higher Education Authority, HEA, show that NUI Galway and, to some extent, Galway Mayo Institute of Technology, GMIT, have the highest number of students aged 17 years and under in third level education at present. The statistics in our submission show the number of students in third level education in the university and IT sectors who are currently under 18 years old and cannot vote. It is evident that NUI Galway has almost a quarter of all students — 227 females and 154 males — who are currently unable to vote.

We carried out a focus group with those students. I should point out that these are figures for the IT and university sectors; they do not include further education or training, where I suspect there is a far greater number of such students. In relating what was brought up in the focus group I can echo some of the comments that have already been made at this meeting. Effectively, five points were made by these third level students who cannot vote. They were as follows: they have adult responsibilities but not the rights of their peers; young people pay taxes, live under the country's laws but do not have a vote; politicians will represent their interests if young people can vote; lowering the voting age will increase voter turnout; and the youth perspective on life is missing, a generalisation for how they view politicians at present.

I will elaborate briefly on each point. The students felt that they have many responsibilities but do not have this basic right. They highlighted that their peers could vote in an election. Many students pointed out that there is a blanket ban on the right to vote in local, general, presidential and European elections. Not only are they missing out on a chance to vote for parliamentarians but their voice will also not be heard in a presidential election or European Parliament election, in which they probably would have a strong interest. When there are voting drives in some colleges to try to get students to register they are unable to sign up simply because of their age. They considered that very unfair. They also noted that the age of sexual consent is 17 years while the voting age is 18 years, and the irony that they could become parents without being able to vote. Many in the group noted that they could leave school at 16 years and start their working life but would still not be able to vote in elections. In that context, they raised the issue of local elections and being able to contribute to them by having the vote for those elections.

Many in the group had part-time work and, despite the modest amounts earned, they contributed to the Exchequer through income taxes and levies. Some of the group criticised the current system and indicated that some decisions that have recently been made will affect them for the rest of their lives, for example, the costs of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, worried them as it was felt that politicians had borrowed from their future for something they did not understand. They felt they were being kept at arm's length from such decisions.

The group believed that politicians would represent their views if they were allowed to vote. Many thought the focus of politicians was not geared towards young people and that manifestos are created for middle-aged people. That was the general consensus of the group and there were very few youth issues in the manifestoes of the parties, or at least that is how those students viewed that. The group wanted to point out that it was very well informed. We are dealing with a generation that has instant access to information via several forms. As well as that, civics is now a major part of the second level education curriculum. The students believed they were very much in tune with what is going on politically. They may not understand what is behind every party, but they have a general idea. I do not believe this view is too different from what anybody else might consider as regards the political parties.

They also pointed out that there are many young people in Ireland and that the birth rate is one of the highest in Europe. They believed that a massive number of people are currently being excluded from being able to vote. They made the point that lowering the voting age would increase voter turnout, something we should all be aiming for. The general consensus was that even where their parents did not vote, the students would vote, especially if they were at school, aged 16 or 17, and had the opportunity. They felt that the youth perspective on life was missing, not only from political life but within general society. Several issues they believed should be to the fore, were not addressed. This focus group survey was carried out around the time of the Copenhagen conference and many students were frustrated at the fact that environmental issues were not to the fore politically, as they would identify these as being of major concern. They believed something was missing from the halls of power in so far as their voice was not being heard.

There was a massive difference between, say, a student aged 12 and one aged 17, who were effectively being treated in the same manner in so far as neither could vote. People were not decreed to be responsible at any particular age. Obviously this focus group was dealing with students who had already completed half a term, so they were pretty well informed. The levels of engagement, we believe, would increase because such students will develop a hands-on approach to voting, should the voting age decrease. With many secondary schools now cancelling the transition year, we believe many more students will enter third level and further education at a younger age.

I have given the facts from the HEA which show the numbers of students at third level who physically cannot vote because of their age profiles. Those are just a few of the issues raised, echoing much of what was said. Again, if any of the committee members have questions, I hope I shall be able to answer them.

I thank Mr. Mannion. We have practically a full attendance today, so I shall ask members to be concise. I shall call first on the Vice Chairman of the committee, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

My compliments to all the speakers for their excellent presentations. Everybody got a clear picture of the different aspects of this particular issue. I have a couple of questions for Professor Tonge. I gather there is no specific recommendation in the summary of the UK commission to reduce the voting age, while it calls for major improvements in the electoral register, citizenship education and so on. Was there any investigation into why people in the 18-24 age group, who are already entitled to vote, have a lower participation rate in the voting process?

As regards the ambassador, the first thing that impresses one is the very high turnout in Austria, at 78%. That is high by current standards. Is there any particular reason for the high general turnout in Austria? Is voting compulsory or what is the situation? The reduction in the voting age did not, apparently, impact on the general turnout, which was just marginally lower.

Ms Kelly and Ms O'Brien have introduced information we did not have before as regards Switzerland and parts of Germany, where apparently the voting age has been reduced. Have they any further information as to what the impact of that has been as regards Switzerland and Germany? Presumably they are referring to Lånder elections, since they refer to “parts of Germany” in their presentation.

As regards Mr. Mannion, for some reason or other NUI Galway appears to have an enormous proportion of the under-18 university population, by which I am intrigued. Is there any reason they should be concentrated in Galway? The focus group suggested that lowering the voting age would increase voter turnout. Is there any evidence to support that? In the case mentioned by the ambassador, it did not have any impact, but was just marginally lower. Again, circumstances in Austria as regards voting which may be compulsory, could be different to here.

We shall bank the questions from members and rather than the witnesses responding to individual questions, perhaps they could address them globally.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and have a couple of short questions, the first of which is for Professor Tonge. Was he a member of the committee that was set up in the United Kingdom, since I noticed from his presentation that he referred to the results in the personal pronoun plural? Has any research been done in the 18-24 age group as to why there is such a poor voter turnout?

As regards the ambassador, I was very interested to learn that Austria had such a high registration percentage. One of big problems in Ireland is that the electoral register is very inaccurate. I notice he has indicated that only those with a permanent address are on the voting register. What about people with a temporary address? Are they on the register or do they not have a vote? We should be interested to know how we might improve the Irish electoral register.

As regards Mr. Mannion from the USI, coming from the west of Ireland, I find it fascinating that such a high number of people under 18 are in college. Does he have any figures as regards the percentage in each college, which would obviously differ from just a hard number of facts? Do the figures have any bearing on colleges that have apprenticeship courses as distinct from degree courses only?

Like others I welcome the presentations and am interested in the various viewpoints. I have a few questions and perhaps an observation first for Professor Tonge. I did not hear any argument that convinces me that if the empirical data show that 18-24 year olds do not use their franchise and if the percentage of that cohort is diminishing, it could be argued that reducing the voting age would increase turnout. That seems to me to be a non sequitur, unless I am missing something. My party has already made a decision to support the reduction of the voting age to 16, but looking at the Austrian experience, we may have to think again. The Social Democrats were particularly badly affected by it.

The Christian Democrats seemed to do well from it.

I am sure that is a matter of education in itself.

The most recent Children Act introduced in Ireland and much of the thinking on child protection issues are focused on increasing the definition of children to those aged 18. The Act increased the legal definition to 18 as a protection measure. There seems to be a dichotomy wherein the argument is made when it suits that the age should be 18 for protection of vulnerable children and so on, but when it does not suit, responsibility should be at 16 years of age. It is like regions in Ireland. There seems to be a different matrix of regions for every function. We need to have some sort of settled view on when responsibility descends upon people. There is clearly not a day when this happens, but we need some joined-up thinking on the issue.

Looking at the most recent elections in Sweden, a new party called the Pirate Party has elected members to the national and European parliaments. It received huge support from young people who want open access to the Internet and no censorship. It is an interesting phenomenon that youth issues might take off even when the minimum voting age is 18. Would that be likely to replicate itself if the vote was reduced? If the politics of issues dominate children's debate in school, that would impact on 16 year olds who would then be entitled to vote in our system. Government margins are very tight in our electoral system, and a few thousand votes normally determine who is in power and who is not in Ireland.

We have an awful lot to do on the registration system here. For a list system such as that which exists in Austria, it is easier to have a national vote in which people can vote anywhere. We have a requirement that one must be physically present to vote in one's own constituency — with very limited exceptions — on the appointed day and within the appointed hours. That certainly impacts on students exercising their franchise. The first step we should take is to ensure that those who are currently entitled to vote have the opportunity to do so.

Obviously the students and young people over 18 favoured the Social Democrats rather than the Christian Democrats.

That happened in Austria.

I welcome the delegation and I will try not to repeat any questions. It seems odd that the British Government commissioned the professor's report and then effectively dumped it by giving it to Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Given that the Labour Party was fully in favour of reducing the voting age, is it fair to ask why the British Government did not make the decision to run with the report? I ask this especially based on the evidence that a majority of 18 to 24 year olds clearly do not have an interest in politics or do not consider it worthwhile voting.

One of the biggest problems we discover on voting day is that people who felt they were on the register find out they are not on it or have been deleted from it or whatever. The professor states that the British central registration system is based on permanent residence. I would have thought that permanent residence meant the adults in the house, such as the father and mother. How does that system guarantee that young people who may be at college or abroad get on the voting register? Is the PPS number used in the British system as it is used here in order to account for people on the register?

It is interesting to note the situation in Galway. I have met many people in my constituency who were favouring the university in Galway as distinct from those in Dublin or Cork. Is there any reason for so many people going to Galway? Is it due to the courses there or what?

The reason is that we are nice people in the west of Ireland. Deputy Devins would agree with me on that.

Professor Tonge made the point that the citizenship programme starts at age 11 in the UK. Since the introduction of that system, one of the first recommendations made by the professor has been to improve its delivery. Has there been a dramatic improvement in young people's understanding of the political system and in participation? Ms Kelly mentioned that there is a lack of maturity and understanding among young people at the moment. Since the change in economic circumstances here and in the UK, young people are far more focused on what is happening around them. From visiting CSPE classes in my own constituency, some of the questions that are asked would hardly be raised here in Parliament. They are extremely complex questions. Has Professor Tonge seen that in the UK, where young people are far more focused due to the change in economic circumstances?

I also have a question for Ms Kelly and Mr. Mannion. Should we look at doing this at local level first? There is a very different system in respect of who is entitled to vote at local level than at national level. Was something like that done in Austria, or were the changes made purely for the national elections?

I would like to thank everybody for their excellent presentations. They raise a fundamental question, and many of the arguments in favour of reducing the voting age to 16 have been canvassed in the different presentations, especially those of the National Youth Council of Ireland and the USI. Many things brought out in the latter presentations are of keen interest to young people in politics. From meeting young people on the doorsteps during the last election, their knowledge of the candidates and the issues is quite remarkable. Were the voting age to be reduced, that interest can be captured. If there is an election in that relevant period, be it local or otherwise, it would create a keen interest in politics that could endure.

Deputy Howlin spoke about the politicisation in schools that could take place, but that goes on at the moment as students debate and discuss politics. Young people in school are very preoccupied with their studies, social life, sport and many other interests. Given all the concern about points in the leaving certificate, could this put extra pressure on students who would be considered to have an obligation to be fully informed about politics and to engage with it? I put that question to the USI and the National Youth Council of Ireland representatives.

There is a more fundamental issue and it is one of direct relevance for the committee, namely, the horizontal issue of where one draws the line between a junior and an adult, and the responsibilities and issues that arise. The point has been made that they pay tax but cannot vote. However, there are other related issues where there has to be a horizontal approach and consistency between how one defines a junior or a child and an adult. We have to find and be aware of the need for that consistency were this committee to recommend a change in the voting age.

I will not repeat what has been stated already. It seems that Professor Tonge's recommendation is that if the vote for 16 and 17 year olds was to happen in the United Kingdom, it should happen first in subsidiary elections, which is not unlike what my party has proposed here. We were the first party to propose it in an Irish context and we suggested the local elections.

It has enough to do in the local elections.

Taking very much from the Austrian experience, in terms of political advantage, the secret is to keep people in education for as long as possible.

Given that Austria has taken the bold step of using it for national elections, we can see how this approach has been used. The Ambassador's presentation referred to the fact that votes between 16 and 18 were in line with national average, and while the national vote was 79%, the vote for 16 to 18 year olds was 77%. He did not mention what the vote was for 18 to 25 year olds and I suspect it would be much less. If that is the case, it is valuable empirical evidence that in the age group from 18 to 25 there is less propensity to vote. For all of us interested in the political system and participation within it, the challenge is getting people to vote in the first instance, knowing that when they vote, they are more likely to continue voting. This is where the argument needs to be examined in terms of further evidence.

There are other aspects of the ambassador's presentation that this committee can examine in its further consideration, not just on the voting age but in terms of participation and the availability and use of citizens to vote in other elections, for example, for our first citizen. I cannot see why Irish citizens throughout the world should not be able to vote for the highest political representative in our country. However, this would mean a change in how we poll.

In terms of the National Youth Council of Ireland presentation, there is a question we need to ask in addition to that concerning voting. There is an anomaly in the Constitution in how people can vote but not be voted for, namely, the distinction of membership of the Oireachtas. We have a situation at present where all citizens are entitled to vote at the age of 18 but a citizen cannot become a member of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann until he or she is 21 years of age. This is an anomaly the committee needs to examine. However, if we were to reduce the age, does this become a deeper question again? It would ask a whole series of other questions we would need to be quite serious about.

In regard to the USI presentation, I would not share the reservations of other members in terms of politicisation in education. The experience in German universities of student government, where it is very much——

It is in secondary schools as well.

Secondary school is a different issue. I realise the Education Act has particular provisions in that regard and I am glad some primary schools are taking up those provisions as well. I note Deputy Howlin's last two leaders had a very strong involvement in the USI. At third level, the German experience is that the involvement of political parties within student government in German universities has been a positive thing which encourages better participation in the political process.

On an overall level, I understand what some members are saying in regard to the fact that we seem to be going down in terms of adult responsibility and recognition of citizenship and upwards from previous legislation. I do not believe that is a bad thing. It was not so long ago that the age of criminal responsibility here was seven years of age, which arose from British legislation they had long since discarded. We need to have a more open debate about responsibility and age. I know legislation is due and the whole question of capacity will soon come before both Houses. Perhaps this committee can help inform that debate.

Much of the issue has been covered already but I have a couple of questions for the Ambassador and Professor Tonge. Almost 80% turnout would have every politician in this State with their tongues out — it is an incredible figure. To what extent has mandatory voting increased turnout in Austria? I see that mandatory voting is no longer in force but people are probably used to voting so they continue to do so — it is a pattern. Could I also have Professor Tonge's opinion on mandatory voting?

I thank the delegates for their presentations, which were very helpful. Professor Tonge has given us his view, which is very close to ours with regard to the people, as well as with regard to the people in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Ambassador Hagg has given a very stimulating contribution about the voting age being 16 in Austria. It was found that the schools gave insufficient information and I was interested to note it was also found that this approach had led to politicisation among that age group in the schools. This is something we see to an extent already with the CSPE course. Again, it is good to be involved in the arguments and to understand them provided one is getting all the arguments or a fair share of them.

With regard to the 77% turnout, has the Ambassador any indication how many of those voting were from overseas, given Austria is open to its overseas citizens voting? What percentage of children in the population is under age 18? I have a feeling it would be much higher here than in Austria.

To what extent had Ms Kelly considered 17 as an age point? It is perhaps a compromise point but there are many other possibilities around age 17, when people are preparing to go out to university or to a job, and have come much closer to that kind of decision. I agree with her that it is very important to involve younger people as far as that would be possible, and this is something we must work at ourselves. As Mr. Mannion said, to begin with local elections first is obviously a possibility.

I agree with Mr. Mannion that politicians would represent the views of this age group more because they represent people, particularly people who vote. People often fail to understand that politicians are there to represent the people's views. That aspect of Mr. Mannion's contribution is obviously true, together with the fact that the engagement would increase. These are just some of the points. In considering the situation, the presentations were very helpful and I thank those who made them.

I have a number of minor questions. Regarding the human rights of individuals and respect for individuals, we are talking about the right to give the franchise to those under 16 years of age. Can we not look at it another way, and say it is wrong not to give the franchise to individuals who have the capacity to vote and who want to vote at whatever age?

Such as 12 years of age if they were very bright.

The next question is addressed to Professor Tonge, Maria and Clodagh. Is there another way of deciding whether one should vote before the age of 18, other than age? As with the driving licence, could there be a citizenship licence where people can demonstrate an interest in voting and can gain the right to vote?

Up to what age would that apply?

It would apply at any age. If an individual has a desire to vote and the capacity to do so, then why not?

If one had to fulfil a capacity test, many 50 and 60 year olds would not be able to vote.

My suggestion applies to those under 18 years of age.

They could get a licence to vote provided they vote the right way.

They tried that in Louisiana.

We will continue in the same direction as we started. We may not have time to respond to each individual question but some can be grouped.

Professor Jonathan Tonge

Would the Chair prefer me to respond to each particular question I have received directly as quickly as possible? There were some interesting questions. Deputies O'Keeffe and Devins asked why those aged between 18 and 24 do not vote in large numbers. There are three reasons. Our remit was to examine those between 11 and 25 years old. One reason is a lack of knowledge. They do not feel qualified enough to vote, which goes back to the Chairman's point. They are turned off by politicians or the political system, or both. That is not to be conflated with a lack of interest in politics. The vast majority of those aged between 18 and 24 are interested in politics and this can be measured on a range of indicators. There has never been a greater number of people studying politics at university in the United Kingdom. However, they do not feel their votes will change matters and feel cheesed off by the political system. The third problem concerns the registration system. Some 16% of 18 to 24 year olds are not registered under the British household registration system. This is damaging and needs to be changed rapidly.

Deputy Devins referred to my use of the personal pronoun plural. I chaired the Youth Citizenship Commission. There have been two commissions of inquiry into the voting age in the United Kingdom. The first was the electoral commission's age of majority report in 2004 , which I was not involved with, and the recommendation was that the voting age should remain at 18 in line with the wishes of the British population. However, it recommended that the issue be reviewed within the next five to seven years, which is how the Youth Citizenship Commission arose. I chaired this commission, even though I was not the first choice as chairman. The first choice was 78 years of age and it was felt that he should not be chairing a Youth Citizenship Commission.

Professor Jonathan Tonge

A cross-section of people drawn from different walks of life were involved as commissioners. It is no secret that the commission was divided on whether to go for an outright lowering of the voting age or to have a more experimental approach.

Deputy Howlin asked how reducing the voting age would increase turnout, given the propensity to abstention among those aged between 18 and 24. The simple answer is that it would not. My strong view is that it would increase aggregate turnout because of the larger electorate but the percentage turnout would fall further. It is a question of how one weights the importance of aggregate turnout, given that one has an ageing population. Should one lower the voting age on this basis or does percentage turnout matter more as an indication of the legitimacy of an election? The percentage turnout would fall if one lowered the voting age.

This measure has been successful in Austria but one can consider the evidence of the measure in the Isle of Man, where only half of 16 and 17 year olds bothered to register to vote and only one quarter of 16 and 17 year olds bothered to vote. No disrespect to Tynwald, the Parliament of the Isle of Man, but it might not be considered a major election. I have no doubt that the percentage turnout would fall.

The question of protection was raised. One of the strongest recommendations of the Youth Citizenship Commission report in the UK was for the Government to examine the age of responsibility across the board. The Vote at 16 campaign has been making the argument, not unreasonably, that if one can do X at a certain age one should be able to do Y. There is a need for standardisation and the fact remains that one is a child in many ways in respect of protection laws until the age of 18. The standardisation of ages matters.

Deputy Kennedy's question suggested the idea on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland going first. We await the UK Government's formal response to the report we produced in respect of the Youth Citizenship Commission. Our recommendation is that it makes no sense for Westminster to continue to determine the age of franchise for elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, which are becoming the main elections in those countries. That is certainly the case in Scotland and we felt that there was no reason for Westminster to carry on deciding the age of franchise. All the evidence is that Scotland and Wales will go for votes at 16 pretty quickly if they get the power. There seems to be cross-party consensus, with the exception of the Conservative Party, in Scotland and Wales to go for a lowering of the voting age.

What about local elections in England?

Professor Jonathan Tonge

We did not recommend that because the commission was divided. We wanted to examine what constitutes national elections. The Scottish Parliament election is, for many Scots these days, the main election. We want to see how this would operate with 16 and 17 year olds voting there. We are conscious that it may seem patronising and that there is a risk of treating those countries as guinea pigs but we thought it would be useful to see the level of take-up by 16 and 17 year olds. The Government must formally respond to that.

It is an open secret that the Government in the UK is divided on the right to vote at 16. It will be interesting to see if it appears in the Labour Party manifesto going into the UK general election. Some members of the UK Cabinet are very much in favour of voting at 16; another Minister said "Over my dead body is it going in the manifesto". We await the Labour Government's response.

Deputy Naughten referred to citizenship. This has not been particularly effectively delivered in the UK to date, to the point where one of the startling statistics we unearthed was that more than half of UK schoolchildren were not aware they were being taught citizenship. This is the finding six or seven years after its introduction. This aspect will improve, partly because it will hopefully lose the status of a Cinderella subject. At the moment it is subject to political pressure and the Conservative Party has said it may scrap citizenship education if the party is in power next year. Members can see the precarious status of citizenship education at present. The other reason citizenship education may improve is that teachers qualified to deliver citizenship will come through. At the moment it is a bolt-on subject, delivered by teachers qualified in other subjects. If good, enriching citizenship education is put in place, the conditions will be there to go for lowering the voting age but it is a question of sequencing. At the moment it is not being effectively delivered.

Senator Boyle referred to subsidiary elections, which I have addressed. Deputy D'Arcy asked whether we are in favour of mandatory voting. It would be much easier to go for lowering the voting age if 18 to 24 year olds took up their civic duty and voted but we cannot go for mandatory voting. We must inculcate the need for a citizen to participate in a democracy with non-mandatory voting. We must encourage people and I am not in favour of forcing people to do so.

The Chairman referred to the human rights issue. A Liberal Democrat MP whom we interviewed as part of the consultation argued strongly in favour of this, saying that people should be able to vote when they are ready. He said that was perfectly logical. However, we could not have gone back to the Labour Party Government in the UK and told it to give people the right to vote when they feel ready, because it would not be tenable as public policy. Inevitably, the voting age is an arbitrary thing. When one gets to the age of 18, one has lived for 5,844 days. There is nothing to say that on the 5,844th day one is suddenly more capable of voting than on the 5,843rd day. However, at the moment, the evidence suggests that the majority of people are not ready to vote, from an educational point of view, until the age of 18, although I hope that will change.

H.E. Dr. Walter Hagg

I thank the Chairman and the members for their comments. It is true that the turnout in Austria is relatively high — it was 77% or 78% at the last parliamentary elections — but over a longer period we see clearly that the turnout is becoming lower. Twenty years ago it was much higher. In the parliamentary elections of 2006 the turnout was much lower than in 2008, which was one of the reasons we introduced an electoral reform consisting of those elements I have mentioned, inter alia the age reduction.

Did anything else stand out among the changes in terms of increasing turnout? Dr. Hagg said a review package was introduced.

H.E. Dr. Walter Hagg

The package of reforms introduced in 2007 included postal voting, voting for Austrians living abroad, the extension of the legislative period from four to five years and the reduction of the voting age from 18 to 16. Compulsory voting existed for parliamentary elections until 1992 and for presidential elections until 1982, but there was no abrupt drop in voter turnout after its abolition.

Deputy Devins raised the issue of registration. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to answer this question in a technically detailed way but, in general, the system of registration of residents as voters is very exact and reliable in Austria. This is also the case for children living in a household with parents. Normally this works very well. Whereas people who are resident in Austria do not need to worry about registration, those who are temporarily resident must deal with the issue, and the same is true for Austrians living abroad.

Deputy Howlin mentioned that the Austrian example is perhaps not so uplifting.

For social democrats.

H.E. Dr. Walter Hagg

As Professor Tonge said, the attitude of young voters is not particularly in favour of one party, such as the Labour Party, but they probably have a tendency to vote for opposition parties. The Social Democratic Party is in government at present, but a sympathy for the Greens and, strangely enough, the right-wing parties seems to reflect the tendency for younger voters to be more relaxed and to favour opposing forces.

Deputy Naughten asked a question to which I will reserve a bilateral reply, and Senator Boyle asked whether the reduction in the voting age has had an effect on turnout. He also asked whether the turnout was different among 18 to 25 year old voters; I must inquire about this and will provide a reply in due course.

I have responded to the question asked by Deputy D'Arcy. Deputy Woods mentioned the politicisation of schools. I did not state that as a general fact but as an observation by some. In the last provincial elections, which took place after 2007, no politicisation was observed in schools; however, in the run-up to the parliamentary elections, some observers saw such a phenomenon. It is true that the population structure in Ireland is different from that of Austria. Young voters — namely, those between 16 and 25 — are considerably fewer than they would be in Ireland.

I ask Ms Kelly of the National Youth Council for her comments.

Ms Maria Kelly

With regard to Senator Regan's comment about pressure, I do not think this is a significant factor. It is certainly a difficult time in school with the points race and so on, but those who want to vote will most likely already know about the political situation. I left a leaving certificate examination to vote — not early — and it did not faze me. People who want to vote will not have any extra work in terms of learning about politics.

Senator Boyle mentioned the possibility of reducing the age of representation in Parliament to 18. This must certainly be considered. The possibility of voting for people of a similar age would result in empathy among young people and thus an increased likelihood of voting. Deputy Woods mentioned a possible age limit of 17. This would be a compromise but we would still lose people through the administrative cracks. There would still be early school leavers who must be registered before they leave school. This is something to be considered.

Deputy Naughten mentioned the possibility of younger people voting in local elections. This would be a start, but it is important, for the sake of democracy, that we have a say not just in our local communities but in our country. That is also something that should be considered.

Ms Clodagh O’Brien

To follow on from what Ms Kelly was saying about local elections, a reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16 in local elections would involve just a change in law, whereas a similar reduction for general elections and referendums would mean a change in the Constitution. Thus, it is a much more complicated process. A reduction in the voting age for local and European elections would be a logical first step.

To reply to Deputy O'Keeffe's comments on Switzerland and Germany, there are cantons in Switzerland that have reduced the voting age to 16, as have parts of Germany. I do not have the information to hand but I can get it for the Deputy. Deputy Ardagh asked about alternatives to a voting age, which is an interesting idea. A system similar to that for driving licences is a possibility, or young people who are working could be given the vote. The question of a viable system would have to be decided. Age is an easy basis for deciding because everyone reaches the age of 18 at some point. I hope that answers members' questions.

Mr. Peter Mannion

I do not know why there is such a high percentage of under 18s attending third level college in Galway city. I am a graduate of NUI Galway; I enrolled at 17 and did not turn 18 until the following March. Thus, I spent almost an entire year of college under 18. It may be something to do with the fact that Galway is a homely city and students are well looked after there. In terms of percentages, I do not have an exact figure, but I would guess that roughly 10% of those entering certain colleges are under 18. This is comparable to the number of mature students in first year at college. Obviously, the percentage would decrease over the course of the college year as people turn 18.

I was asked why students believe the turnout would be higher. Deputy Howlin highlighted the key point in this regard when he referred to the example of Sweden. If voters are energised by a particular matter, they will vote. The position is no different if someone is 16, 26 or 66 years of age. If it were possible to recreate what happened with the Pirate Party in Sweden, then many people would vote. However, I do not believe anybody has cracked that particular nut as yet. If we were to do so, it would lead to interesting results.

Questions relating to whether people under the age of 18 are ready, educationally, to vote are extremely ageist in nature. What makes a person who is 26 or 66 years of age educationally able to vote? Setting down a particular age at which people can vote does not mean that certain individuals will be ready to vote or be capable of voting when they reach that age.

Is Mr. Mannion opposed to the setting of a particular age limit?

Mr. Peter Mannion

If we argue with regard to whether the age should be 16, 17 or 18, we will leave ourselves open to criticism.

In such circumstances, what does Mr. Mannion propose?

Mr. Peter Mannion

It is the responsibility of politicians to decide.

What is Mr. Mannion's view?

Mr. Peter Mannion

The focus group we established was very defined in nature. Those involved were in third level education and were 17 years of age and they wanted the right to vote. It was as simple as that.

Is Mr. Mannion of the view that the age should be 17?

Mr. Peter Mannion

That is what the focus group stated. I do not believe there are many 16 year olds in college. During the next five to ten years, a trend may emerge whereby young children who were placed in crèches may begin national school at a younger age. If these children start primary school at four years of age, they will be 17 when they enter third level or the workforce. It is imperative that any decision relating to this matter should be made prior to this happening.

I thank Mr. Mannion.

On introducing a voting age of 16 for local elections as a first step, the issue of discrimination was raised in the report in the UK relating to human rights, etc. In my view, we should choose a voting age of 16, 17 or 18 for all elections. Where distinctions are made, discrimination results. It is not objectively justified——

That is already the case. One could be a councillor at 18 years of age but one would not be able to stand for election as a Deputy.

We may be going down the wrong route if we believe we can introduce a voting age of 16 in respect of local elections. Such a move may be open to legal challenge.

I thank our guests for participating in this interesting and stimulating discussion on whether 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote. I also thank the various members who participated.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 27 January 2010.
Barr
Roinn