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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 2008

Business of Joint Committee.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Bannon. Are the minutes of the meeting of 26 March agreed? Agreed.

The following items of correspondence have been received by the joint committee and circulated since the last meeting. We received documentation from Deputy Fitzpatrick regarding a payments dispute between Kildare County Council and a contracting company. The matter is detailed. Would Deputy Fitzpatrick like the committee to ask the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for its observations on the matter?

I have already done so. The Minister has replied that the matter should be dealt with by the Department of Transport and that he has forwarded the matter to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey. I do not understand how that decision was arrived at. This issue arose in County Kildare and I wonder if it is sub judice, as it as gone to arbitration. May I refer to the specific cases involved or should I speak in general terms? I am concerned as to whether we should be discussing it.

For a number of years I have been concerned about the way county councils go about their business. If there is an overrun on a contract, a county council may enter into a dispute with the contractor. In some cases this is justified but in others it is not. In the two cases in question it is my view that Kildare County Council is not justified in taking the contractors to arbitration. I have read the adjudication of the conciliator in both cases and I am of the view that his recommendations are reasonable and fair to both sides. Rather than spend more public money in pursuing this matter, the county council should have met and discussed the issue with the civil engineering company following conciliation and prior to arbitration. It did not put sufficient effort into bringing the dispute to a successful conclusion.

Regan Civil Engineering is a small company with approximately 125 employees and 100 sub-contractors. It cannot sustain this liability. I can show evidence that it has applied for other contracts, including a substantial one in Carlow, but has refused to take them up because of its experience in County Kildare. A few million euro is a substantial amount to a small company.

The committee should examine how local authorities handle this business. It is unfair that when small struggling companies get a contract from a local authority, they face problems when it comes to getting payment. One such contract was given as part of the preparation for the Ryder Cup. The contractor was asked to do particular work within a specific period of 22 weeks. He did the work to the satisfaction of everybody concerned but subsequently the costs were disputed by the county council. He believed that, rather than having a dispute, he would get a bounty for completing the work on time and satisfactorily. He got no bounty and has not been paid.

As a first step, rather than discussing a specific case, we could write to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and request it to check with local authorities, across all sections with which local authorities deal, whether it is housing, water, sewerage or roads, how many contracts go to conciliation; how many, having gone to conciliation, ultimately go to arbitration, and how many are not accepted at arbitration and ultimately proceed to legal proceedings. The case to which the Deputy refers may be an isolated one or there may be such cases all over the place. None of us has a handle on how many go through the various processes. A major example was described at the Committee of Public Accounts last month concerning a sewerage contract in Limerick which ultimately cost €70 million instead of €9 million.

I am very much aware of it. What could have been sorted out for €12 million cost €60 million or €70 million.

We should find out how many more such cases there are.

I am aware of a few instances where companies did not think it worth their while to take on such work because they would lose work if there was a dispute with the county council. That is a fear many contractors have. It would be worth examining the issue at departmental level to see what could be done about it.

We will write to the Department for information. We will then be able to see the extent of the issue.

The next item is No. 23, bathing water regulations statutory instrument, which it is proposed to note.

Can I take it that the letter I submitted will be taken as read in the minutes?

We will note it and take it as read and write to the Minister on the broader issue highlighted by the case.

We will note the bathing water regulations statutory instrument. The next item relates to the European climate. It is a policy update newsletter. Next is a press release from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the destruction of vegetation. It seems that the Department is routinely sending copies of all press releases from the Minister to the committee for its information. Some may have been in the public arena a couple of weeks ago. We will note them, unless somebody wants us to deal with them. The next item is a press release from the Minister on the protection of the built heritage. There is also a press release from him on his address to the Local Authority Members Association.

Next is a European Union newsletter which we will note. There is correspondence which includes an invitation to attend a one-day conference in Brussels on 27 May on the capture and storage of carbon. Deputy Bannon has expressed an interest in attending. Is anyone else interested in attending? If there is agreement for a delegation to travel with Deputy Bannon and the clerk to the committee, I ask members to notify the clerk. If Deputy Bannon is keen on attending, it will be in order for him to represent the committee.

It is on 27 May until when?

It is a one-day conference. I do not have the itinerary here but the Deputy may contact the clerk after the meeting to obtain the details. If anyone else is interested, we can clear a budget at our next meeting.

The next item is a letter from Emily Kathleen Villamar-Robbins in Dallas, Texas, regarding the M3 motorway in the Tara-Skryne Valley. We will refer it to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for a detailed response. It is a well known issue.

The next item is an e-mail from Mr. Tommy Byrne, Clonsilla, Dublin 15. I understand he is offering his services as a consultant to the committee or any other committee. We will note and keep it on file.

The next item is a report on greenhouse gas emissions from road fuels and the specification of fuel used by inland waterway vessels from the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny which was copied to the committee for information purposes. We are not requested by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny to deal with it but only to note it.

The next item is a newsletter from the Combat Poverty Agency which we will note. Next is the Local Government Computer Services Board annual report which we received this morning and which we will also note. If members wish to invite the group to attend a meeting of the committee, we will consider it in our work programme.

A draft report on the visit by a delegation of the joint committee to the GLOBE 2008 tenth biennial trade and fair conference on business and the environment held in Vancouver last month has been circulated. We extend our thanks to Deputy Bannon and Senator Glynn for representing the committee at the conference. Is it agreed to approve the draft report and lay it before the Houses of the Oireachtas? Agreed.

The main item on the agenda is our report on the electoral register. A draft was circulated by the clerk at our last meeting. There was a general discussion on the format for dealing with a report from a joint committee. As Chairman, I went through the various comments and have proposed some changes. We must formally go through the report page by page. The task is not as big as it seems. We need only go as far as page 17. The rest consists of submissions from various individuals and the appendices. They do not involve issues in which we are involved. They are simply documents presented to the committee. We need to clear a paragraph and adopt it with a view to launching the report. There are one or two minor details that must be finalised. I hope we can move through this promptly and formally launch the report on Wednesday next.

The committee will meet next Tuesday to discuss the Estimates. It is hoped to launch the report next Wednesday in the committee room or the meeting room next door. The format will be to launch it at approximately 2 p.m. The committee will have a meeting 15 minutes beforehand to formally approve the report. At that stage one or two figures will be inserted on which I have been awaiting a response to a parliamentary question. We will go to the media centre and, as Chairman, I will launch the report and invite any members of the committee who wish to do so to comment on it. It will then be open to the media to ask questions. I ask members not to issue any press releases between now and the next meeting because the report is from the whole committee, not from any individual member. We can all comment next week. I am conscious that we are in public session and that journalists can pick up on our comments today. However, I ask that individual members hang back, as we will work as a team on Wednesday next. Is that agreed? Agreed.

In dealing with the draft report, I do not intend to read it line by line. I will refer to the paragraphs which we will agree as we go along. The paragraphs on which we will be making recommendations are those on pages 12 to 17. I will turn to page 7 where the report begins. If members have issues or want to make textual changes, we will note them now and have them signed off here. The table of contents includes the Chairman's preface, membership, acknowledgements and executive summary, which lists the topics with which we will deal in our conclusions.

The first paragraph deals with the background. There were problems with the electoral register and the census. These problems were very severe in the run-up to the 2007 election. We decided, therefore, to study the issue. The second paragraph relates to the existing administration of the electoral system. In that regard, the committee called in the various Departments which have a role in the electoral system. The third paragraph deals with suggested improvements to the registration process. In that context, the committee visited Northern Ireland and invited representatives of two Departments to attend a meeting. Paragraph 4 deals with proposals for change, while paragraph 5 contains our conclusions. This is followed by the appendices.

Regarding the Chairman's preface, it will be up to me to say a few words. There are no problems regarding the membership of the committee and the acknowledgements listed on page 5.

Paragraph 2 relates to the existing administration of the electoral system. The role of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is set out in detail. An appendix is included with the opening statements from each Department, the information presented, the questions asked and answers received. The role of the local authority registration authorities which deal with the register is where many of our problems arose. I suggest we look at that paragraph. A total of 34 registration authorities are responsible for the register and therein lies the problem. Updating the register and making preparations for elections are not core functions of authorities and not given priority. The level of priority afforded to this task varies from authority to authority. Despite efforts by the Department in promoting uniformity of approach, it became clear to members that there were serious errors with election data which arose from the following: the varying degree of priority afforded to maintaining data; a wide variety of practices among authorities; an insufficient number of field workers; and door-to-door visits to obtain the necessary information in some authorities. The main problems concerned accuracy, omissions and duplication. These are the problems with the register.

The key role of the Department of Finance is to pay returning officers by a standard agreement. The Department also makes payments to An Post for delivering voting material and reimburses candidates who qualify for reimbursement when approved by the Standards in Public Office Commission, the role of which is to oversee expenditure and approve refunds. It also has other functions but not specifically to do with an election. For the information of the committee, this is the only information awaiting verification and it will be cleared at our next meeting.

Information on the cost of holding the general election in 2007 and payments to returning officers is on its way by way of a parliamentary question I tabled. The Department of Finance gave the committee the information on payments to An Post for issuing polling cards, which amount to approximately €12 million. The figure for reimbursement of election expenses to candidates as approved by the Standards in Public Office Commission is included in the commission's annual report and will be conveyed to the committee. It is approximately €2 million or €3 million. Payments to the Office of Public Works which are to be verified are in the order of €500,000. There are other costs in holding an election which include administrative costs by the Departments of Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Standards in Public Office Commission and the various local authorities.

I refer to page 10 of the report. The total electorate in the 2007 general election was 3,110,914, of whom a total of 2,085,245 voted. To say the turnout was 67.03% is not correct because we all know that the original electoral register figure of 3,110,000 is flawed, which is the reason we are investigating it. The committee is not making a comment, rather it is providing information on the costs incurred.

To suggest improvements we looked at the registration process followed by the Northern Ireland Office. We spoke to the Department of Social and Family Affairs about the use of PPS numbers. The Department made it clear that this would require a change in legislation. We spoke to the Data Protection Commissioner who was very concerned about data protection, an issue with which we will deal. I refer to the proposals for change listed on page 12. The next few pages of the report carry the details of the committee's suggestions.

Is the Chairman going through the report page by page?

We should go through it paragraph by paragraph.

I refer to the end of page 11 and page 12 and the possibility of using PPS numbers. The committee should pursue this option forcefully. With reference to overruling the right to privacy, we have to strongly advocate for this because it will not be done voluntarily. I support the use of PPS numbers and seeking whatever legislation will be required to achieve this. I will make other comments later.

Those were the comments made to the committee. Our comments begin from the middle of page 12 onwards. On page 13 we recommend exactly what the Deputy has proposed. We will go through each of the paragraphs and if members disagree with anything or become aware of any omissions, they should, please, inform the Chair. On the need for a single body to manage the registration functions, the committee is agreed that there should be established a single registration authority as described, rather than have each local authority conduct its own business.

The next heading is objectives and criteria for registration. Everybody entitled to vote should be included in the register. Those not entitled to vote should not be included. This is stating the obvious.

No. 3 concerns the use of PPS numbers as personal identification. The committee strongly recommended their use.

What about the case in which a father and son or a mother and daughter in the one house share the same name and when the son or daughter applies to be included in the register, the parent's name is removed from it? The use of PPS numbers would overcome this difficulty. Such a situation causes great difficulty for a person who has been included in the register all his or her life but there is confusion when a child has the same name. A vote could be lost as a result.

That is explained in the report. On a point of information, the PPS number would be included in the application form and the local authority would be able to verify it but it would not appear on the printed register because the information is private. That is fully agreed.

Next is the issue of continuous registration and a computerised register. One may only register during one period in a year. In Northern Ireland the system is updated as information becomes available and the names of people are deleted if they are deceased. People can change address at any time. It is a rolling register, rather than being a once-off register produced in draft form in November with the final form being produced in the spring. It is not a good idea to have only a few weeks in the year to update the register which should be updated any day of the year. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Did the committee reject the concept of compulsory registration?

The Northern Ireland process does not provide for compulsory registration. It was indicated to us that the registration officer of Northern Ireland had the function of compiling a complete register and that he may prosecute for non-co-operation in the course of his duties. It is a roundabout way of making it compulsory. It would be a draconian measure.

On a point of information, under the Irish system, mandatory registration was required because the register initially was tied to rate payments with compliance being linked to inclusion in the register. Since the abolition of the rates system there has been ambiguity about being included in the register. While there is an assumption that somebody has a choice as to whether he or she wants to be included, the fact is that when the register was initially set up, there was a legal requirement to be included in it.

This is probably one of the most contentious issues that the committee may have to deal with. In the section headed Continuous Registration and Computerised Register it is stated in the third paragraph that the concept of compulsory registration was considered but rejected by the committee. If members wish to change it, this is the moment to do so. I am in the committee's hands.

It was rejected by the committee.

That was the consensus reached at a previous meeting, that we would not agree to compulsory registration and that it should not be an offence not to register.

Deputy Fitzpatrick has found a solution, although I am not sure about its practical implementation. If one were to consider compulsory registration, at what stage in somebody's life cycle would one do it? Would the name of every 18 year old be automatically included in the register?

If legislation is enacted to appoint an electoral commissioner, the process will start from the point when the commissioner begins his or her duties. I hesitate to recommend that refusing to put one's name on the electoral register should be deemed to be a breach of the law. What is the sanction? Is it the case that ultimately somebody could be jailed for contempt of court for taking a stand and not putting his or her name on the register?

In the Northern Ireland system the chief electoral officer has the power to impose a financial penalty. I do not believe he enforces it unless people purposely avoid registering.

Do we want to take that route?

It would mean compulsory registration.

We can leave it open.

There are two aspects to the register, the structure under which it operates and the system within which it operates. We recommend changes to both. We seek an entirely new structure and to make changes to the system. We have discussed mandatory registration. We need to re-frame what we are saying. There is wide agreement on the desirability that every citizen should be registered to vote. However, anomalies arise which were mentioned subsequent to the visit to Northern Ireland. Victims of domestic violence might not want their information out in the public domain. There are other legal difficulties. We cannot fudge the issue. The Northern Ireland system is not about mandatory voting. It is about registration. People will have the choice whether to vote or not. We must take a position if we allow this document to go from this committee today. Our thinking on this must be clear if we are to direct the rest of the House. It is my view, and it was the view indicated here in discussions, that the committee should recommend that being on the register should be a requirement.

I understand that we want consensus, but there are people who would disagree. Could we recommend that the new electoral commission should consider the pros and cons of compulsory registration?

That is a fair point.

We need to agree the wording for the clerk. There will be a few textual changes and we want to have the report ready for the launch. The Deputy proposes that we drop the words "but rejected by the Committee" from the paragraph which begins with the words "Compulsory registration was considered..." and recommend that these matters be given detailed consideration by the new electoral commission. We have fairly strong views but this is not the final word on it. The next paragraph deals with legislation required to address the setting up of the new office, privacy issues regarding data sharing and PPS numbers and the changing roles of the Departments and local authorities.

The paragraph on counter-fraud measures states that a number of initiatives have worked well in other jurisdictions. These include the insistence on photographic identification at polling stations and that evidence of identity and address should be strictly enforced at the initial application stage when people apply to be entered on the register.

The paragraph on promotion states that the office of the national electoral officer should have a role in promoting maximum voter registration - if it is compulsory that will be dealt with - and maximum turnout on polling days.

In regard to postal voting it is recommended that improved measures should be introduced to facilitate people out of the country on holidays, pilgrimages, work and so on. If people are away they should be entitled to a vote.

We refer to the issue of spoiled votes. The committee is highly concerned about the level of spoiled votes at every election. At the last election 19,435 individual ballot papers were spoiled. This is an average of 452 per Dáil constituency. It is a serious issue in that in some constituencies the number of spoiled votes is greater than the difference in the number of votes between the candidate who took the last seat and the candidate below him or her. That is one of the disadvantages of the manual system.

I do not share your conclusion that one of the many reasons we should consider electronic voting is the number of spoiled votes.

It is a minor reason.

I do not agree. I come from a constituency that has the highest number of spoiled votes in the country in terms of the quantitative number. The figure is approximately 800.

There is a chart here.

Many people going to polling stations do not have a clue how to vote. Some people put an "X" beside the name of the person for whom they want to vote. That is how they avoid confronting their illiteracy issue. Others tick every box - they love all the candidates - thereby spoiling their vote. Still others merely fold the paper because they do not know what else to do.

They leave it blank.

There is an education problem, rather than an electronic voting issue.

That is a fair point.

You mention in the report, Chairman, that you would like to see some research done into why people do not vote. Perhaps that should include why people spoil their votes. They may be doing it accidentally or they may be making a statement. We need to do some research on that.

Going back to the paragraph on promotion, the new officer should have a role in promoting maximum voter registration and maximum turnout on polling days. What does the Senator suggest we insert there?

That we need education and research into why there are so many spoiled votes to establish whether or not it is a mistake or a statement.

We will include that point.

I would like to drop the last sentence. The whole issue of electronic voting is up for grabs in terms of what people want to do in the future. I still think it is a matter for the electoral commission. It is not a matter for the register of electors. In the absence of education or prior information, many people take fright if they see an electronic voting machine when they go into a polling station and come out without casting their vote. I am reliably told that happened in the three pilot schemes introduced in the past. I am sure all parties were informed that this happened in some cases.

What does the Deputy wish to delete?

I propose that we delete the last paragraph on spoiled votes which states "This is one of the many reasons why we should consider electronic voting as it would eliminate spoiled votes."

We will delete that.

It is not an appropriate place to have that sentence. One is either for or against electronic voting. That issue relates to electronic voting.

We will delete that.

On electronic voting and the counting of votes——

Maybe I am prejudging the issue. In my constituency it took more than 48 hours to complete the count. That is farcical.

I would not necessarily agree that public confidence in the electoral system demands more speedy and accurate results, as stated in the paragraph on the counting of votes. There is no proof that electronic counting is more accurate than what we have at the moment. I ask, therefore, that the sentence be deleted.

We can drop that section if the committee wishes.

We may need to examine the issue of electronic voting on another occasion. This report is about the registration process. Confidence in electronic voting has taken a hit. Perhaps that is an issue that needs to be worked on in the future.

Is it desired to make an amendment in regard to the counting of votes?

Counting votes and voting electronically are two entirely separate matters. In Northern Ireland it was strongly recommended that the counting of votes should be done electronically but that voting would not necessarily be done electronically. I propose that we delete the first paragraph under the heading of electronic voting because a value judgment is implied in it that I do not think is agreed. We should let the remaining two paragraphs stand because we cannot pass over the issue involved without making a passing comment.

Does the committee wish to delete the sentence beginning with the words "In many third world countries" in the paragraph on the counting of votes?

Let sections (x) and (xi) roll into one another.

The second and third paragraphs are fine but there is a value judgment that implies that electronic voting is fine.

I must agree with the removal of the first paragraph of section (x). Russia returned a very quick result on this occasion. Zimbabwe sometimes returns quick results.

The speed might depend on the result.

We would secure agreement on the electronic counting of votes because we have a paper trail.

We do not. We do not have a verifiable system.

We are still voting according to the old system. We will now count them.

Counting will not come into play if we have electronic voting. Someone will press a button and we will have a result.

There must be a way of showing the count electronically.

I cannot agree with the following sentence: "This committee recommends the need for electronic counting and electronic voting". I seriously dissent from it. I was a member of the previous joint committee when we discussed this matter for two or three days. Witnesses pointed to several difficulties associated with electronic voting. The Minister, Deputy Cullen, his officials and the providers of the electronic voting system attended. Despite the many questions raised, the Minister insisted on going ahead with electronic voting. We subsequently discovered that the decision had already been made and a deposit paid on the machines when the joint committee was discussing the issue. I do not wish to be part of any committee which recommends electronic voting. I dissent from putting my name to such a recommendation.

There will be no need to dissent. We will arrive at a consensus.

We can get around this. We must improve our electoral system and method of counting votes. That will be a matter for the electoral commission. Our report is concerned with the compilation of the electoral register. We are getting into a contentious area unnecessarily.

The document we are discussing is a draft. We can drop paragraphs. Should we drop the section on the counting of votes and electronic voting?

We do not need to get into this area. Unless there is agreement, we will not do so.

There is another place to look at it.

The next paragraph settles the whole matter. It states public confidence can only be ensured if there is all-party consensus on the matter. There is no hope of reaching all-party consensus on the matter of electronic voting.

Then it will not happen.

I propose that we take out section (xi).

We will also take out section (x). Nothing of importance hangs on those sections. The deletions will involve renumbering. There is a recommendation that there be a national returning officer.

What is the need for or purpose of a national returning officer? Is a result announced in a count centre not final, unless there is a High Court challenge?

In individual constituencies.

The report recommends the establishment of a national electoral office.

The returning officers in individual constituencies should report to a national returning officer and make a formal declaration of the results.

Someone must be put in charge and be accountable.

Individual returning officers are on their own. There is no national office with responsibility for results. The last paragraph on page 16 reads, "The committee feels the current practice of counting votes in Seanad elections in the restaurant in Leinster House is unacceptable. A national returning officer should ensure Seanad votes are counted in a suitable location". It is unseemly to count the votes in the restaurant.

As a first time voter in a Seanad election, I noted the ballot paper did not identify the party affiliations of candidates.

They are supposed to be vocational panels.

They might be vocational by attitude but they are politicians by nature. They are nominated by political groups.

One is dealing with a professional electorate.

I am sure one finds a few spoiled and dodgy votes.

Very few.

One of the major breakthroughs in the electoral process achieved by the National Adult Literacy Agency was to have photographs of candidates printed on ballot papers. It is of huge assistance to voters. People also like to know if a candidate is aligned to a political party.

Would the Deputy like to see that extended to the Seanad ballot papers?

We can include a recommendation that Seanad ballot papers be similar to Dáil ballot papers and include candidates' party affiliations and photographs. Photographs are already included in Seanad ballot papers.

Will that meet the constitutional requirements of the Seanad election? Candidates nominated by Members of the Oireachtas might be entitled to have their party affiliations included. Those nominated by nominating bodies represent their vocations. To include party affiliations would be contrary to the provisions of the Constitution.

Deputy Lynch has a point but I do not think we have full agreement on the matter.

There is no reason the political affiliations of candidates on the Oireachtas sub-panels cannot be stated. As Deputy McCormack has pointed out, a candidate nominated, for example, by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions need not state his or her political colour. It is the prerogative of nominating bodies to nominate who they wish. However, word gets around as to how a candidate is fixed in terms of political colour.

We will hold off making a recommendation because of those complications.

With regard to electoral boundaries, the joint committee is of the view that a review of electoral boundaries should be conducted by an independent commission. Currently, boundary reviews for local electoral areas are carried out internally within the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The review is ongoing. This practice should cease and reviews should be carried out by an independent commission, as is done in respect of Dáil and European Parliament constituencies.

Local knowledge is required in redrawing electoral boundaries. In my constituency and many others people are required to pass a polling station and travel four miles to another because they happened to be in a different electoral division when the polling station areas were drawn. The task of drawing up polling station boundaries for local and national elections requires local knowledge. One needs to know that voters from Corrandulla should not pass Corrandulla polling station to vote five miles away in Corrandrum.

Am I correct in saying the polling schemes and decisions on who votes where are the responsibility of local authorities? Our report refers to electoral areas.

Yes. That is a distinction.

The electoral areas are currently drawn up by officials in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

The Taoiseach-elect made a very interesting observation during the Order of Business this morning, although I do not necessarily agree with it.

I saw that.

He has a personal interest in an area around Birr.

The next paragraph states such boundary reports should be submitted to the Dáil for approval, or otherwise.

Without wishing to see the camáns coming out, a couple of issues need to be agreed. Deputy Hogan has reminded us that we are discussing the register of electors. We are drifting into the remit of the Standards in Public Office Commission and the Referendum Commission. One could argue that the creation of a single national register with a national returning officer might lead to the convergence of the Standards in Public Office Commission and other aspects at a future date. A difficulty would arise in regard to boundaries if the commission simply did its work and the matter was finalised. Submissions are taken before the commission writes its report but the commission should come back with a draft report so that the public could then engage in the consultation process. This committee should make a recommendation that different election agencies be under one umbrella. That is my view but it is not an issue for debate at this meeting.

Should we stay away from the paragraph on electoral boundaries? We can delete it.

I am sure the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, will come forward with proposals in that regard.

We will delete that section. We are now dealing with the last page and only the appendices remain thereafter.

I noticed one thing which I think was discussed at length in this committee. It concerns people who live and work away from home but wish to vote in the constituency in which they were brought up or have an interest. I do not see any reference to that issue in this report. Did we have something to say on it and what was our conclusion?

One of the difficulties is that some counties are stricter than others. Some would strike people off the register once they went to Dublin, even if it was only for a week. Others, knowing people came home for weekends, left them on the register. Our principal difficulty is that there are 34 different local authorities dealing with the matter in up to 34 different ways. The essence of what we propose is that there should be one registration authority and one process. We do not want to decide specifically how the job will be done but inconsistencies from county to county in drawing up registers are part of the problem. A problem in Cork was not a problem in Laois and that, in itself, was a problem.

The people who think seriously enough about voting to travel back from Dublin to Cork are the ones we should accommodate as they are the people who will vote.

If PPS numbers are used the address on those will define a person's constituency. People who have worked in Dublin for 20 years and have a Palmerstown address on their PPS record cannot say they are going home to vote in Cork.

I think we got our answer when we visited Belfast, where they have probably the most accurate register in western Europe. Where people live is where they vote. People should not have a weekend address which they might visit once every five years to vote. Their residence address is what matters and our job is to put the necessary structure in place. The operational matters are for the staff working on the register. If the Deputy wishes to give guidance to the director of the service this afternoon he should say our primary purpose is to get people registered so that they can vote. The system is something for the commission and the national returning officer to deal with at a later date.

People in rural areas are more affected than those in city areas. They may be students or people working in Dublin but going home at weekends to play football with the local team. If those people want to vote at home they should be allowed to do so and that is generally what they have done. Even when a general election is on a Thursday, thousands travel home from the city to vote, in the north west at any rate, and we should assist them in any way we can.

The committee should recommend this as it is important. I do not know how other committee members feel.

I can understand where Deputy Christy O'Sullivan is coming from. There is inconsistency on the part of local authorities in interpreting the rules of domicile. It is very difficult to decide on how many days a person should live or work in Dublin or Cork to qualify as domiciled there. Perhaps we could suggest that it be investigated and that there should be consistency across local authorities as to the definition of a home address. Deputy Ciarán Lynch said that if we used PPS numbers people would be registered wherever they were working. In the old days we used to attend the revision courts, where there was always a row with the returning officer or county registrar as to where the line was to be drawn as to whether a person was based in Dublin, Kilkenny or elsewhere.

As Deputy Scanlon said, it is a difficult situation because my sons come home from Dublin every weekend to play football and hurling. Would that make a difference? If they came home to see their girlfriends would that make a difference? One has to accept that a person lives where he or she is domiciled, despite the intention to come home and vote for a particular person, in this case myself.

A person might not want to live where they live. They might be there because they have to be there.

They are there because of their jobs.

Earlier in the meeting we proposed inserting a sentence suggesting that compulsory registration be considered by the new electoral commission. We can add a reference to the location of a person voting. The matters to be given consideration are compulsory registration and location.

The Chairman should outline what the problem is but it is not for us to come up with a solution as we will not be able to do so. At least Deputy Christy O'Sullivan will be able to say the report identified the problem but the national electoral officer should come up with a solution.

I am not sure there will be solutions.

He should have intervened with the Cork county board years ago.

Near the end of page 14 it refers to citizens being allowed to take responsibility for their own registration. It states: "the committee feels it is the job of the State to take leadership and actively promote the compilation and maintenance of an accurate register." We will add a sentence--

The eligibility for inclusion on the register should be clarified.

A reference should be made to people who are working away from home.

Perhaps we should put "birthplace".

We will put in a sentence to the effect that the issue of citizens--

It should refer to those who wish to vote in their home constituencies, where they were born and reared.

Members need to create a picture in their head as to what we are trying to create. We are trying to create a single PPS-based system in which people are registered accurately and only once. The notion that people can choose the constituency in wish to vote, while politicians might like the idea--

We did that in the last election by allowing prisoners to do so. Some 700 in Portlaoise Prison were entitled to pick the constituency they wished to vote in.

We can create an absentee voting system, as the Northern Ireland Office did and which was very accurate. If a person happened to be living in west Cork and could not be in west Cork on election day he or she would be facilitated with an absentee vote. We studied that recommendation very carefully when we met with the Northern Ireland Office. Our foremost purpose is to create a register which is entirely accurate. There are 120,000 more people on the register than there were in the census figures, which is the equivalent of a four-seat constituency. We are setting out to correct that. We do so by removing ambiguities and ensuring people are registered and only registered once. We do not want to create a system in which voters still vote at their mothers' houses 20 years after getting married and moving to an entirely different part of the country. I do not believe that is what Deputy O'Sullivan is creating.

The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, from which we derive much of our direction, writes to individuals asking them where they want their vote recorded. It is then up to the voter to provide a reason for residing in a given area.

That should be a matter for the national electoral office.

That was my opening point.

That represents a different approach to that of Deputy O'Sullivan.

We are not saying those who moved from a residence 20 years previously--

It is a question of those who move on a weekly basis.

It is mostly young people, including students and people working in the city, who come home at the weekend.

Single people working away from home.

If somebody is married and has moved from his or her original home, the new home is the one that should be recorded. However, I refer to people who travel home every weekend.

The national electoral office should devise criteria to facilitate maximum voter participation and take particular account of those who are away from their place of birth by reason of work or education. We cannot draw up the rules because we do not know the practical problems that will arise. At least the matter can be investigated.

Page 17 of the draft report states:

Legislation should therefore be drafted to-

Establish the Office of the National Electoral Officer to carry out a clearly defined mandate-

— For preparing and maintaining the National Register of Electors, and

— For the operation of elections.

Transfer the existing functions from local authorities to the National Electoral Officer;

Transfer the existing role of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the National Electoral Officer (the Department to retain, however, overall responsibility for policy and legislation in electoral matters);

Transfer the existing role of the Department of Finance to the National Electoral Officer [This is basically in respect of fees, charges and schemes pertaining to the national returning officer.];

Provide adequate resources for the National Electoral Office [This is essential.];

Establish the counter-fraud measures, identifiers/PPS Numbers as discussed [PPS numbers will comprise the principal focus.];

Introduce electronic voting and electronic counting [This has been omitted. We will stick with the peann luaidhe, as somebody once said.];

Establish a more comprehensive postal voting system for people who cannot attend polling stations;

Revise the existing register onto a centralised IT database;

Look to a future of continuous, individual registration with sufficient resources for staffing, promotion and research into automation,

We will hold back on the latter measure and just state "Look to a future of continuous, individual registration with sufficient resources for staffing". We will leave it at that because there is not yet agreement on automation or electronic voting.

The draft report also states legislation should be drafted to:

Establish the Office of National Returning Officer, and

Establish an independent boundary commission.

I believe we stated we are moving away from the commission.

We should remove the reference to "boundary commission".

The reference will be omitted.

The document also states: "Legislation should provide for the National Electoral Officer to carry out all of the functions under his/her remit, or, work with other organisations where considered appropriate."

The rest of the draft report contains various appendices with information supplied by this committee to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Finance, the Standards in Public Office Commission, the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Data Protection Commissioner. There is also an appendix on individual ballot papers filed according to constituency. Did we drop the provision on spoiled votes?

One of the recommendations refers to the establishment of "a more comprehensive postal voting system for people who cannot attend polling stations". I assume this will take on board absentee voting in cases where people are on holidays or away from home because of work.

It is not just in respect of disabilities and illnesses.

There are always thousands of people caught because of holidays.

We should be accommodating them.

They say they will be away on election day and request to be able to vote before they leave. Many in this category are disenfranchised.

We will make the proposed textual corrections. It is intended to hold a press launch on Wednesday, 16 April 2008 at 2 p.m. in the audio-visual room. We will meet in committee room 4 at 1.45 p.m. for a final get-together prior to the launch. The select committee is meeting next Tuesday to discuss the Estimates.

For many years, finance officers in various local authorities have been responsible for compiling the register of electors. I would not like them to feel we are doing anything negative. They are part-time employees and only operate for a few hours every year. At the start of our report, the Chairman should make some reference to the work they have done over many years. We have all complained about inaccuracies in the register but we should note that there are very decent, honourable people working in this area. They were originally called rate collectors and are now called finance officers. We should compliment them because, in setting up a new body, we could be creating a problem for some of them in that their jobs might be on the line. They were paid a commission each year for their work.

Were they paid a commission?

They were paid a fee.

I do not know whether they were paid a fee in my constituency but they did not do the job.

In Kildare, some very fine people have been doing the work for years.

In 2006, the year before the general election, a large allocation was made to local authorities. Some of the payments had to be paid to the staff as compensation for those who had been traditionally been paid to do the job but who in reality were not doing it. They had a legal entitlement to hold on to their jobs. They were paid compensation not to do the job and new people were brought in to do it; it was scandalous. However, the Deputy is correct that much good work was done in many areas over the years.

The Chairman should make particular reference to Kildare.

I know some of the staff and many of them are members of the Deputy's party. They are very fine people.

I am conscious of that and state on page 8 that "The level of priority afforded to this task varies from authority to authority". Some were very good and others were not. The lack of consistency was part of the problem. I state in the report that insufficient field-workers and door-to-door visits to obtain the necessary information were not provided "in some registration authorities". We are not saying all registration authorities were the same but that there was a mixed bag.

The Chairman will make reference to the matter in his statement.

I will do so in my opening remarks at the press conference.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.37 p.m. sine die.
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