JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 May 2010

Environmental Matters: Discussion with National Council for the Blind of Ireland

Vice Chairman

The next matter on the agenda is environmental matters of concern to people who are blind or vision impaired. I welcome everyone present. Members will recall that the committee received an e-mail from the National Council for the Blind of Ireland which informed us that a number of matters are under discussion with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I refer to matters such as funding for the council's library service, accessible voting and the use of shared space in urban design. I am pleased to welcome representatives of the council to this meeting to discuss the difficulties they are encountering. I welcome the following: Mr. Desmond Kenny, who is the chief executive officer of the council; Ms Elaine Howley, the council's director of services; and Ms Lina Kouzi, the council's library and media services manager. I thank them for attending today's meeting. The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation by the representatives on their findings, followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee.

Before they begin their presentation, I want to draw their attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I ask the witnesses to note that we will devote an hour to this item on our agenda. I ask them to keep their presentation as brief as possible. I invite Mr. Kenny to begin his contribution.

Mr. Desmond Kenny

In my capacity as the chief executive of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, I thank Deputies and Senators for inviting us to this afternoon's meeting. We have had some interaction with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government over several years. Part of the general thrust of the council is to seek a general environment in which vision impaired people can live as integrated and included members of society. As the Chairman indicated, we have raised certain issues with the Department. The first of our four areas of primary concern is the need for an overarching vision impairment strategy. If such a strategy were adhered to throughout the Government sector, across all Departments, it would lead to an improvement in cost-effectiveness. After I have finished, Ms Kouzi will discuss our second priority, which is the library service. The committee will learn that the problem with the service is that it is particularly segmented and separated. Ms Howley will then speak about our third priority, which is the concept of shared spaces. The fragmented approach to that concept is incurring retrofitting costs, and so on. I will conclude by speaking about our fourth priority, which is accessible voting, and wrapping up on behalf of the council.

We have been toing and froing on many of these issues. The library service and the shared spaces concept are matters for the local authorities. Everybody sees such concepts as commendable and worthy of investment, but doing something about them always seems to be within somebody else's remit or province. That is why we ask the committee to consider a recommendation that may be slightly outside its remit. We think it is tangential to what we are talking about. We call on the committee to make a submission to the Minister for Health and Children, requesting that the concept of a national vision strategy be promoted. We estimate that the number of vision impaired people in the country — we are talking about low vision, as distinct from total sight loss — will increase over the next few years, up to 2031. When the figures for blindness and low vision are added together, the predicted increase will be in excess of 300%. As people live longer, their sight deteriorates. We have an aging population with some useable residual vision. We are trying to strive for joined-up services, including remedial, preventive and treatment services. As members of society and citizens, people with vision impairments are also supported by the State through the provision of lifestyle, cultural and other enhancing services. Ireland signed up to the concept of a national vision strategy at World Health Organisation level in 2003. It was endorsed with a welcoming heart. We went back in 2009, when everyone else was signing up, to say "you are doing great, lads, we will all get there eventually". Some 120 countries have signed up to date. Ireland has not yet prepared a national vision strategy, however.

All four of the issues on which we will focus, including the need for a vision strategy, are cost-neutral. I appreciate that members may be sceptical when they hear the term "cost-neutral" — they may have used it themselves while knowing it usually means something else. When we have more joined-up policies and practices, people will find that major costs are not associated with them. The national vision strategy will ensure that services are provided to vision impaired people as part of a more holistic, thought-out and planned approach. That will result in a saving to the State. I have set out the council's request that the members of the committee should endorse the concept, as presented to them in our submission, that they should write to the Minister for Health and Children to encourage her to develop a vision strategy around our group on behalf of the people we represent and the State as a whole. I have argued that the provision of such services would be cost-effective.

I invite my colleague, Ms Kouzi, to speak about the main item on our agenda — the mainstreaming of our library service, which we are obliged to run from private funding. It seems to be the responsibility of everyone else. It goes from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport and back again.

Ms Lina Kouzi

I am the library and media services manager of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. Everyone in Ireland has the right to read. Unfortunately, the realisation of this right is more difficult for some people. Everyone living here can access free books through the publicly funded local library service. The council produces accessible books and distributes them to blind and vision-impaired individuals. A low percentage of books in Ireland — just 4% — are made available in accessible format. We have to work to achieve that. Approximately 14,800 blind or vision impaired people rely on the services of the council's library. Almost 5,000 registered members use the service on a regular basis. Despite the fact that it is the only national library for blind people in Ireland, it only receives funding from the HSE for some staff costs. No funding is made available to cover the cost of producing or distributing accessible media. Therefore, the council relies heavily on its charitable side to fund these activities. It is important for us to consider approaching the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to try to secure funding for our library service, just as the public library service is funded. That would place us on a par with the public library service in purchasing, producing and distributing publications.

Mr. Desmond Kenny

I will give the committee some figures to assuage any public concern that our proposal might lead to incurring additional costs or switch costs. As members are aware, the library service is currently funded on the basis of a capitation payment of approximately €6.90 per person and a further payment of more than €3 per person for the production or purchase of books. Our 15,000 people are already counted as potential library users but we do not benefit from that and even though we are entitled to use the library services, we are effectively debarred. The repository of books is so large that it would not be cost-effective to replicate them throughout the library service just to enable a person in Ballaghaderreen to go to the library in the town for a copy. By using Freepost it is easier for the books to be posted to the individual using a list system.

Ms Elaine Howley will talk about our shared space dilemmas. I will come back to a matter which interests all Deputies and Senators — the issue of voting.

Ms Elaine Howley

The shared spaces initiative is a traffic-calming measure which involves pedestrians, cyclists and motorists sharing the same space. Unless it is implemented very carefully it will have significant safety implications for people who are blind or vision-impaired. It challenges the accepted notion of a safe space for people to walk on as one which is free of traffic or cyclists. We are calling on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to take the lead in developing standards and guidelines around the implementation of shared space in urban areas, which is inclusive of the needs of people who are blind or have impaired vision. At the moment, architects and planners seem to be attempting to implement the strategy in different ways throughout the country.

Vice Chairman

I thank the guests for their presentation.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I thank the National Council for the Blind of Ireland for attending. We often hear presentations from people outlining their problems but it is welcome when people come in with solutions to those problems. Some of the ideas presented today are simple and measurable and can be implemented immediately. They would put people in control of their lives, which is a difficulty at present.

A number of years ago I was involved with the National Adult Literacy Agency in a campaign to get candidates' photographs put on ballot sheets, which followed an OECD report of the late 1990s showing that one in four adults in Ireland had reading or writing difficulties. The proposal was one way to assist people in exercising their democratic right. As we know, the photographs in question hang on every ESB pole in the country so why should they not be on a ballot sheet?

I am interested in how the tactile voting system works in practice. How does somebody operate the system in a polling station? The witnesses said it was used in different countries and I imagine it would be very easy in a country with a first past the post system, such as Britain, where one only has to tick one candidate. How would it work in a multi-seat, proportional representation system?

I am also interested to hear what the witnesses have to say about the traffic calming measures which have been introduced. As Cork city was mentioned in this context, I wonder what suggestions they have in this regard. My local library in Ballyphehane introduced a number of services for vision-impaired people some years ago and the benefits were felt immediately. It brought in a whole new client group to the library service and broadened the scope of the library as vision-impaired people were able to use the services like everybody else.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I am not a member of this committee but I am glad to sit in on this discussion and I welcome the witnesses. My interest in this issue goes back a long time as my late mother was partially vision-impaired for some time and totally blind for the last six years of her life. I know what it means to have to deal with this issue and how important it is for things to be in the right position so that people can operate freely. It is vital that people can keep in contact via the library and I will look at how that can be achieved.

The issues relating to the variety of road crossings in our towns and cities are extremely important. I recently saw to it that a young blind man was housed. He is totally blind but has to get on a bus in Inniskeen village to go to Dundalk or Dublin and he advises me on the different obstacles he comes up against. Many can be solved quite cheaply, especially if they are tackled at development stage when it does not take much to include the necessary facilities.

I am also interested to hear what the witnesses have to say about voting. As a candidate, I always made sure I accompanied my mother to the polling station — and that no one else did — so that I received at least one vote. It is more difficult in a voting system such as ours than it is in the UK.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their presentation, which was very enlightening. They asked us to make contact with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the strategy. Are local authorities doing enough to assist the visually impaired, especially with regard to libraries and open spaces such as footpaths and car parks? The authorities receive some money each year to carry out certain works but do the witnesses feel they do enough to make it easier to get around public buildings and other public areas, not only for visually impaired people but people who use wheelchairs? We should also focus on officials and councillors to ensure they fulfil their obligations.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I also welcome the delegation from the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. The best thing we can do is ensure the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government comes before the committee to respond to the concerns we have heard and to the witnesses' call for a policy based on four key issues. The presentation sets out the council's agenda very clearly and makes clear its members' frustration at not getting the necessary work done.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I also welcome the witnesses and compliment them on the document they have provided. We will support their proposals and recommendations.

A lot of good work has been done in local authorities, particularly in urban areas, though there is a lot more to do. As a member of a local authority for many years — I was first elected in 1974 — I have seen the many improvements that have been made to footpaths, such as the dishing of footpaths.

It was worrying to hear the comments about the council's library service. All libraries in Ireland should provide facilities for people who are visually impaired. Such people like to go to libraries to get their books and sit down to read. This area needs attention.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch referred to the voting arrangements for people with vision impairments. I have a simple question. It may not be popular to mention the electronic voting system. As someone who experienced the use of the system at a past election, I would like to hear the witnesses' views on whether it was a better system for people with visual impairments, by comparison with the pencil and paper system. I saw people going into polling booths who were fully blind. They seemed to be able to operate the electronic voting machines, with the help of others. As this is a democracy, everyone has the right to vote in private. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

I do not think I have anything else to say. I compliment the council on its work. The only thing I do to help the council is to organise its national collection at a few churches every year. It is a pleasure to observe the generosity of the people towards the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. It is great that people are always forthcoming in helping out at collections. I compliment the council again on the great work it is doing.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Does the delegation know whether any of its vision-impaired members sit on the special policy committees of local authorities? I refer specifically to the environment committees at local authority level. They could have a big impact on what the council is asking us to do today.

Mr. Desmond Kenny

I will start by speaking about local authorities. Deputy Brady was right to say there has been a marked improvement in environmental accessibility since 1974. Local authorities, through local representatives, have accommodated people in their own localities. People with disabilities started to move out into society in the early 1980s, when they were first perceived as having a home in society. Before then, they were locked away in homes and institutions. Society started to integrate people, for example by seeing a place for them in their own homes. The various local authorities are to be commended on the joined-up thinking they have displayed in our cities and towns. I refer to the provision of audio signals for vision impaired people, for example. Street furniture is better managed than it used to be. The ramps that are provided to accommodate wheelchair users are marked in a way that assists people with low vision.

There are no national policy guidelines on the brand new concept of shared space. We must accept that local authorities have the best of intentions in trying to do it right. We need to know why shared space exists, the parameters around it and the psychology of how cars and pedestrians can use the same space. It allows drivers to travel calmly at certain speeds, while facilitating substantial eye contact and other interaction with pedestrians. Where that is not possible, minimal kerbs have to be accommodated to give guidance to people. In that sense, local authorities have improved. We are not trying to impose a national shared space policy on them, but to give them guidance. We want a national dialogue on it. Some 18 months ago, we sent a request to local authorities to consider this matter. We received letters from authorities that were willing to do it. One local authority said that as it was happening in a vacuum, there was a need for a national discussion. It wanted guidance from the Department on the psychology of shared space and the broad parameters in that regard. That is my comment on local authorities and shared space.

The library services have improved. People should be accommodated in libraries through large print and audio collections. Some people live a long way from the nearest library. As I said in the submission and earlier in the presentation, we provide a repository, whereby people can borrow from us rather than having to replicate our audio books. Our audio books are compressed on cassettes or CDs — up to 12 hours of recording can fit on one CD. One might get up to 12 CDs when one borrows an item from the audio collection of one's local library. They are done as part of a commercial operation. Our books are marked to tell one what page number one is reading, so that if one wants to talk to one's friends about the book one is reading, one can refer to a specific page of the book. We are talking about the whole span of educational, cultural and recreational literature. We run a repository in that regard, as I have said, having had a specialist library since 1854. It makes sense for libraries to continue to be hospitable to those with low vision. The quality of vision of over 100,000 people in the older age group is decreasing. As their mobility also decreases across the age cycle, their remoteness from the local library becomes a greater factor. This is where our library comes into play. We are saying it should be there for them from the beginning, rather than merely at the end. That is the rationale for continuing to improve our library service, while enhancing in a beneficial way the manner in which it is seen as an adjunct to the local library service.

It is interesting that members of the committee are mildly concerned about voting. It is a really difficult question. It is quite simple in a way. Can I speak firstly about electronic voting? When it was introduced, it was a nightmare. The equipment that was bought was not fitted with audio synthesis to tell people what was on the ballot paper. When this system came in, it was worse than the old ballot paper system. Electronic voting is used elsewhere, including America. Our system, which had its genesis in Holland, is used with speech and can work in that way. Deputies will appreciate that the past difficulties with electronic voting have probably moved its introduction beyond my lifespan and that of others. We will probably be left with paper for some years to come. The template of the ballot paper is more difficult in a proportional representation system. A particular template is needed for each ballot paper. It is not a question of large numbers of people. A large print ballot paper can be provided for the majority of people. Last year, 60% of those who came to us for the first time were in the older age group and had significantly reduced vision. Very few of the remaining 40% were totally blind. The needs of people with low vision who wish to vote can be accommodated by means of an increase in the size of the print on the ballot paper. The smaller minority of people can contact us or we can arrange with the Electoral Commission to find out where they are and the template can be drawn up against the size of the ballot paper. Windows will be created in the overlay of the template to suit the number of candidates on it. The windows which can be opened will be numbered and there will be a reference point to the number of the Deputies and so on, so nobody will cheat on the Deputy. We always know that the Deputy is at the top of the list and Lynch will be in the middle so we know we should look down.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Right.

Mr. Desmond Kenny

That is how it is done. Each template has to be tailored to the local ballot paper because of the PR system. It is easier in England where there is a first past the post system, or there has been up to now. In Albania the same type of system is in place. Spain has moved to a different form of electronics where a visually-impaired person can vote by mobile phone. We are looking at a combination of large print and a template particularised to the local area. In that instance it should work.

The franchise unit in the Department is very receptive to looking at the solutions and is considering trialing a template in the future. Its only problem is that it got locked into the reforms around Electoral Commission boundaries and so on. The unit tends to get tied in to the bigger story and our story is minuscule in terms of the bigger story around electoral reform. We have a sympathetic ear. We have good people working in the franchise unit of the Department who listen but we want a little help for them from the Minister to say they are doing a good job but might do it a little faster.

Do we have any people on local authorities? In the past, vision-impaired people and low-vision people have served on local authorities. Given the size of the country and the nature of low vision, Deputies know the position. Some will help at our flag days and church gate collections, others will have relatives with low vision. Members are their own wisdom and we just want them to use that wisdom on our behalf all the time when thinking and we make a presentation such as this. Members are sufficiently knowledgeable and do not need specialists to tell them what to do.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. Kenny. What is to be done about Deputy Hogan's proposal?

Deputy Phil Hogan

We should send this submission to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government asking for its response on the four key issues.

Vice Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the witnesses for taking the time to appear before the committee. We have had an interesting discussion and will write to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in support of the call and follow it up as proposed by Deputy Hogan.

Sitting suspended at 3.24 p.m. and resumed at 3.27 p.m.