JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Jul 2011

National Concert Hall: Discussion with Chairman Designate

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Kieran Tobin, chairman designate of the National Concert Hall. Thank you for your attendance.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call upon you to make your opening statement.

Mr. Kieran Tobin

Thank you Chairman. I do not know whether committee members have received the document I sent in, but I propose to go through the overview, the part on development and the personal statement at the end, and the highlights of the remainder, rather than go through the whole document.

It is a great privilege to appear here today, as the Government's nominee to be chairman of the National Concert Hall. I hope by the end of this process, members will have a better understanding of the opportunities and challenges facing the National Concert Hall, a vision for the development of this national cultural institution, and how my role as chairman, working with the board and management of the National Concert Hall, will help to achieve all this.

The National Concert Hall was opened by President Patrick Hillery and presented its first concert on 9 September 1981, which will allow the team currently involved in the NCH, and everybody associated with it since its inception, to celebrate 30 years of great music making in Dublin and around the world. The National Concert Hall was conceived originally as primarily a symphonic hall for the performance of classical music, and is the designated home of the RTE National Symphony Orchestra.

While delivering fully on this original conception, and still viewed as the venue for classical music in Ireland, the concert hall has developed the breadth and inclusivity of its programming so that it is a meeting place for all types of music, defined only by its excellence in performance, and accommodates the best international and Irish musicians.

The National Concert Hall has operated very successfully since its inception in 1981, both artistically and financially, and has reported operating surpluses averaging €64,000 per annum in that time. In 2010, the National Concert Hall achieved impressive attendance levels of almost 320,000 patrons at 834 events, 336 of which were in the main auditorium. That is a very high level of usage for such an institution.

The concert hall's current programming and output is limited by physical factors such as seating capacity, the flexibility of the auditorium spaces and scheduling factors. That the demand for access and dates to use the National Concert Hall has significantly exceeded the ability to supply is something that I, as chairman, and the board will have to address as a priority.

A public private partnership initiative was approved in principle for the development of the NCH. This was to include a new auditorium with 2,000 seats, the full refurbishment of the existing auditorium, and a separate smaller hall for other musical genres. In November 2010, this process to redevelop the concert hall site was formally abandoned on the grounds of affordability and the current economic climate. However, rehabilitation and refurbishment issues still remain. It would be a key objective of myself, as chairman, and all the stakeholders of the project, such as the Department of the Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Government, the OPW, RTE and our loyal customers, to win approval for action on these issues.

For essential reasons of health and safety, I understand the status quo as of 2011 is not an option for the concert hall. Essential maintenance, disabled access and general mechanical and electrical refurbishment issues have accumulated in the past 30 years of operation. These works were all put on hold, pending the outcome of the redevelopment plans, and I understand they must be addressed in the near future, in any event. The redevelopment plan now includes refurbishment of the existing main auditorium to an international standard, rehabilitation of what was the medical library as a recital hall with a seating capacity of 500, provision of a dedicated personal space with the symphony area, various other small rooms to be refurbished and provision of accommodation for a third level institution offering music courses to degree level.

In the development of the proposed concert hall, the Department of the Tourism, Culture and Sport and the OPW have co-operated to produce a plan which can be delivered at moderate cost over the next three to four years. If this came to pass it would be available in 2015 or 2016 which would be a positive, affirmative and celebratory contribution to our 100 years of nationhood.

I have outlined the vision for the concert hall and touched on various issues; I will not go into all the details. The redevelopment will deliver a strong, positive impact across a broad spectrum of areas by rehabilitating a site of primary cultural and historic importance in Dublin. It is very much associated with our independence and the 1916 Rising. It will enrich the national cultural landscape in general, improve opportunities for Irish musicians, increase the National Concert Hall's public service music remit and so on. We have a list of objectives which will be addressed by the plan.

The next part of the presentation outlines programming. The National Concert Hall promotes a good number of events, and curates them and rents out the concert hall. RTE is one of the major tenants. A key strategic objective of the concert hall would be to develop programming relationships and collaborations with other promoters, performers and institutions. I would envision myself as chairman working with the board and management to nurture these collaborative relationships with a range of parties to deliver high quality programming for the three refurbished venues comprising the improved facilities at the concert hall.

The redevelopment project, as outlined, will provide essential facilities in order that the National Concert Hall can fully implement its artistic policy, placing music, musicians and audiences at the centre of what it does. It can deliver on its key vision of being the heart and soul of music in Ireland and internationally renowned for its unique artistic signature.

My presentation goes into detail on the marketing plans in place. I will not discuss all of them in detail but a lot of work has been done on various aspects of the marketing of the concert hall. I draw the attention of the committee to philanthropy, individual giving, sponsorship and corporate funding as areas to which I would like to give extra attention. We have an existing base of friends and patrons. We have done a lot of research in this area. We have applied for charitable status. We want to leverage our funding from our membership of the American Friends of the Arts in Ireland and individual donations.

As I have some experience in the area of sponsorship and corporate funding, I feel I can contribute to the further development of the concert hall's very successful corporate membership scheme. Plans are in place for a more streamlined and focused scheme which should deliver more supporters. Assuming the refurbishment plan goes ahead, the concert hall will be in a position to open up the process for hall, venue and space naming and will look to engage with partners for a minimum of ten years. I look forward to supporting the concert hall in any way possible in this endeavour. I firmly believe the implementation of this marketing strategy is key to the development of the concert hall, driving sales and revenue and its ability to operate on a more sustainable basis.

The next section of the presentation discusses the very important education and outreach activities of the concert hall which are all grouped under the learning and explore programme which comprised 615 events in 2010, 355 on site and 259 off site. There are plans to increase this by 15% to 20% per annum but if the concert hall wants to deliver on this, it is constrained by its current facilities. The redevelopment plan would provide a tremendous opportunity to increase the offerings in the learn and explore programme on site. I would count the opportunities for growth in this area as a key argument in support of the redevelopment plan.

Financial sustainability is a key and strategic objective for the concert hall. To guarantee the successful achievement of this objective, I as chairman and the new board will have to give strong consideration to the likelihood of an even more challenging national economic climate emerging. We will need to enhance our ability to create new sources of revenue, as I have said, and develop our relationship with the Department of Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs in order that we can maximise our potential for support from the scare resources of Government. We will work hard to enhance income streams from philanthropy, sponsorship and other areas to maximise the potential of the concert hall and to maintain its premier status in what is now a highly competitive environment.

My personal experience with the space that is now the National Concert Hall goes back almost 40 years when I commenced my engineering studies in UCD and what are now Government buildings on Merrion Street, a place I remember with great fondness. I recall attending several events in Earlsfort Terrace, including a great Chieftains concert. Planxty and other such groups were around in those days. I attended many debates in the lecture hall which still exists on the lower ground floor when the L&H was in full flight.

I was conferred with my degree in the all-out maxima in what is now the main auditorium of the concert hall. I did not realise at that time that I might have a possible reconnection with the wonderful space. My engineering qualification led to a variety of jobs in technical, managerial and commercial areas, including a two-year stint living and working in the USA.

For almost 25 years I worked in Irish Distillers which is now part of the Pernod Ricard French-based international company in a variety of roles. For the past 18 years I have worked at director level. I have been involved in exports, helping to build up the Jameson brand around the world with great success. I was commercial director for Ireland. I ran the wine business and now run the communications and corporate affairs end of the business. My 25 years with the company has given me a good understanding of strategy, management, sales, marketing, sponsorship and, very importantly, the vital contribution and difference people can make to an organisation.

I have also been involved with industry groups over the years, including a number of stints as chairman of the wine and spirits association. I currently hold the position of chairman of the Drinks Industry Group of Ireland. My involvement in this area has also taken me to Brussels where I was chairman of a finance committee for the European organisation. I had to manage 20 nationalities in ten different companies who sat on the committee.

On a personal basis, music of all genres and forms has been always a passion of mine. I have a particular interest in classical music which goes back a long way, including some very enjoyable school boy outings to the then St. Frances Xavier Hall off Gardiner Street with the RTE Symphony Orchestra. It was doing outreach programmes back in the 1960s. I became involved in classical music in that way. It managed to break through the noise and encourage some of us to explore our musical horizons.

I am currently involved at board level and am chairman of the KBC music in great Irish houses festival. It has given me a practical insight into all aspects of running a music festival, including the artistic, managerial, financial, commercial and sponsorship aspects. I have been a committed supporter of the National Concert Hall over the years. I am a friend of it and have been instrumental in our corporate sponsorship of it for almost 15 years. As a regular attendee at National Symphony Orchestra concerts, recitals and other more popular events I know what it is to be a customer in the concert hall. It must be doing something right because I have been going back on a very regular basis.

If I am successful in achieving the honour of becoming chairman of the concert hall, I guarantee a level of enthusiasm, zest and energy for the job, allied with some reasonable commercial experience and a genuine passion for music. I hope some of this passion and energy, in conjunction with that of the people on the board of the National Concert Hall and the 1.5 million people who will attend concerts during the five-year term of the incoming board, will imbue them to return regularly and happily to the concert hall which has the vision of being the heart and soul of music in Ireland.

I thank the committee for its time.

Chairman

Before I ask for questions from members I wish to clarify a matter. Mr. Tobin is currently the chairman of the Drinks Industry Group of Ireland which is an umbrella group. Has Mr. Tobin an ongoing involvement with Irish Distillers?

Mr. Kieran Tobin

Yes.

Chairman

Given his opening comments regarding sponsorship, does he envisage a possible conflict of interest arising? He could be at one side of the table representing the drinks industry and there is the possibility of sponsorship for the National Concert Hall by a drinks company. How does Mr. Tobin hope to deal with that conflict of interest?

Mr. Kieran Tobin

It is a good question. My chairmanship of the drinks industry group involves all the players in the drinks industry, suppliers, hoteliers, restaurateurs, publicans and all the rest. I have managed to balance all of those interests within the drinks industry group. I would be fronting the concert hall, encouraging the concert hall people to look for sponsorship but I would not necessarily make the final decision as chairman. I do not think there will be a conflict of interest.

Chairman

If it came to sponsorship of the National Concert Hall by the drinks industry, would this be a decision of the board rather than of Mr. Tobin as chairman?

Mr. Kieran Tobin

Yes. If there were to be any potential for conflict of interest I would certainly leave it to the board, but I do not foresee any major potential for conflict.

Chairman

Thank you.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I welcome Mr. Tobin to the committee meeting and I thank him for his presentation. I also wish him success in his term as chairman of the National Concert Hall.

The Chairman has asked the questions I had in mind. Many drinks companies have set up visitor centres such as the Guinness Store House and the Jameson Distillery. Can we look forward to having a visitors' centre in the National Concert Hall as a tourist attraction? Other than a good day's sunshine, there is nothing like a good concert to lift the spirit of the people and, therefore, Mr. Tobin is undertaking a very important role and I wish him well. I ask Mr. Tobin to state his plans for his term as chairman. Does he propose to do something different that might result in additional job creation? How many people are currently employed in the concert hall, directly and indirectly?

I come from rural Ireland and I have often considered it to be an aloof institution. Does Mr. Tobin propose to link the concert hall more successfully with the rural heartland of Ireland? Mr. Tobin referred to his plans for the national commemoration in 2016. Will traditional Irish music be fostered in the concert hall?

I was surprised to hear Mr. Tobin say the National Concert Hall should be accorded charitable status. I thought it should be run as a commercial venue. I ask Mr. Tobin to explain his view in greater detail and to explain how his role in the drinks industry can be incorporated to benefit the promotion of the concert hall. I wish both Mr. Tobin and the National Concert Hall every success in the years to come.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I thank Mr. Tobin for his presentation which was very informative. His enthusiasm, ideas and vision are very evident. Will the current economic climate have a hampering effect on this vision and enthusiasm? Many people were impressed with the "Music Changes Lives" programme on RTE last year. What is the role of the National Concert Hall in developing such initiatives in an attempt to broaden the appeal of music, and classical music in particular, among those from disadvantaged areas?

Deputy Gerald Nash

I, too, welcome Mr. Tobin to the committee hearing this afternoon. From the evidence he has submitted today, it is clear he has the appropriate skills set to further develop the National Concert Hall as a business as well as the cultural institution it is and which it could be in the future.

Competition will be one of the major challenges for the concert hall. In this regard, I identify the Grand Canal Theatre as one of the foremost competitors. I am sure Mr. Tobin has taken cognisance in his future plans of this newly arrived competitor. I ask him to elaborate on how he thinks the concert hall can weather that challenge and competitive challenges from other institutions and organisations, many of which are privately run.

I note that Mr. Tobin in his presentation identified correctly that 100,000 people are directly employed in the cultural industry, so to speak. This is a significant number in terms of the economy and our unique cultural identity. He has acknowledged that such employment must be protected and secured and this is also of interest to this committee. Our job of work is to convince other decision-makers that supporting the arts is valuable in terms of our cultural identity and of the economy. The arts and cultural projects need to be viewed through the prism of the economy.

Deputy McLellan referred to the role of the National Concert Hall and other cultural institutions in breaking down barriers so that all sections of society are included. There is a perception that the National Concert Hall is elitist, notwithstanding its importance. I do not necessarily agree with this view. What plans has Mr. Tobin to address that accusation of cultural elitism? The very future of the concert hall will depend on its openness and its inclusivity. He referred to the successful outreach programmes. However, I do not hear any plan to extend these programmes to specifically focus on disadvantaged areas. For example, in my constituency of Louth I represent a considerable number of RAPID areas, which are areas designated as being disadvantaged. I was involved in many cultural initiatives through my work in professional theatre companies and arts organisations which were aimed at providing experiences to people who might otherwise not have had those opportunities.

Are there are plans for educational engagement. When referring to the outreach programme, Mr. Tobin spoke about plans to allow people in the regions to enjoy and experience what the National Concert Hall has to offer. He referred to the physical constraints of the site and of the economic challenges. Ideally, the National Concert Hall would have developed a public-private partnership project further but the current commercial and economic reality will not permit this to happen. However, a number of venues of similar size across the country would greatly welcome the concerts the concert hall can offer. Are there plans to develop such co-operation during his term of office?

Mr. Tobin is the chairman-designate, his skills set ticks a considerable number of the boxes and I note his enthusiasm for the job. I wish him every success in the future and I offer my support in achieving the best possible outcome and future for one of Ireland's greatest cultural institutions.

Deputy Robert Troy

I thank the chairman designate for his presentation. I do not want to rehash what has been said but I have a few questions. It is obvious Mr. Tobin has strong professional experience in running the business over the year and he might elaborate on how that experience would benefit the cultural institution that is the National Concert Hall. He might also indicate how he envisages opening up the concert hall to attract a wider spectrum of the arts and music than currently exists? I am thinking primarily in terms of Gaelic music, traditional Irish music.

A previous speaker spoke about how the concert hall is seen as an elitist pastime. Does Mr. Tobin propose to alleviate such fear and to ensure the concert hall is not seen as an elitist pastime but as one that has a broad and encompassing appeal? The arts are there for one and all and not only for the higher echelons of society.

Mr. Tobin spoke about the work that needs to be carried out to bring the concert hall up to speed and to meet the required conditions. Does he have any idea as to how this would be funded? Given the current economic climate, I cannot foresee the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht having the necessary funding available to carry out this work.

I asked the Minister during Question Time recently how staffing levels in the national cultural institutions will be affected by the employment embargo in place across all Departments and he predicted that in 2015 or 2016 approximately 280 fewer people will be working in the national cultural institutions, of which the concert hall is one. How does Mr. Tobin envisage maintaining the current level of service provided by the concert hall given that undoubtedly one of the first challenges he will face will be staff reductions?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Tobin is welcome. It is right that he should focus on the delivery of the refurbishment of the concert hall around the 2016 commemorations. It would be wrong not to have the issue of our cultural revival celebrated as part of that, given that it was very much part of the lead up to the Rising. Therefore, that is welcome.

Our capital city is the appropriate place in which to have a national concert hall located. I would be concerned about spreading things too thinly such that we would lose the benefit of the cultural impact of the National Concert Hall. There may be limits to the potential outreach programme from the concert hall in the current environment and we should curtail expectations.

The financial success of the National Concert Hall has been very good but much of it came during the good years when people had money in their pockets. The real challenge will come, as others mentioned, when competition may take away some of the concert hall's patrons and other venues diversify their activities. There is a good deal of competition in the market of philanthropy if it could be called a market. There is most definitely a challenge in that respect.

Does Mr. Tobin envisage that the degree course he suggested would be associated with one of the colleges, or would it be separate? Would it be delivered to non-Irish students, which would have a potential income stream as well as delivering something that is different?

There is a negative, as well as a positive, to an institution having charitable status in terms of not being able to claim back VAT. A major refurbishment of the concert hall is planned. Is there a potential difficulty in the institution having charitable status at the wrong time in that there is a disadvantage as well as an advantage to it having that status? That is something that should be considered.

Chairman

I now invite Mr. Tobin to respond.

Mr. Kevin Tobin

A good few questions have been raised and I will do my best to address them. The elite status, or an aloofness about the concert hall, was a common theme to the questions raised by a number of members. That perception obviously exists judging by the questions that arose and that has to be noted. It is one of which the incoming board and those working in the concert hall will have to take note. Members will note that the current programme for the concert hall provides excellence across a wide range of musical genres. Obviously, it was conceived primarily as a hall for classical music. I am not sure of the exact percentages and am open to correction on this, but approximately 35% to 40% of it programming comprises classical music and there is quite a degree of jazz and popular music. There is also some Irish music in its programming. Deputy Coonan and another member asked would it be possible to have more Irish music in the programming. Having heard their questions, the concert hall will have to examine that in the balance of its programming in the future.

On the question of aloofness, I do not get an aloofness from the staff. Such things come from the buildings, the staff and the advertising. I have always found the staff to be friendly, approachable and welcoming. We always have to be careful of this and to move to ensure that such an approach is brand offering.

On the question of the eliteness of the concert hall, it is not evident in the pricing of tickets given that if one were to go to the O2 one would pay twice as much for a ticket. Therefore, it is not in the pricing of tickets but more in the perception of the concert hall.

Classical music at this stage is of appeal to a minority of people - that is a reality of life. The outreach programme with musicians going to schools and organisations around the country helps build audiences for the future. I take on board the intent of the questions and it is certainly something I will address with the new board as we go forward.

The charitable status of the concert hall was raised by a number of questioners. The main reason charitable status may be sought would be tax advantages for donations, for people who give to the concert hall. My understanding is that it is a benefit to the donors rather than to the concert hall. I am not a huge expert in this area but my colleagues in the concert hall tell me that is the main reason. It will allow people to claim back money and the concert hall will also get a little more out of it. There are VAT implications but I believe we are sorted technically for those.

Members asked about jobs. If we go ahead with the redevelopment and refurbishment plan, there will be jobs in the redevelopment and refurbishment works. We would have three performance bases in the concert hall which would give us a much more significant income stream but they would have to be managed, cleaned, lit and serviced. There would be more jobs in the running of those three auditoria. I do not have the exact number of jobs to hand but I will come back to the committee with the number of planned jobs. There would be an increase in jobs planned in the redevelopment of the concert hall.

A few members asked about competition, and one member mentioned competition from the Grand Canal Theatre. That theatre is a great addition to Dublin and it goes after the broad West End musical category of performance, which is complementary to what the concert hall does. I do not believe it is in direct competition with us. I thought this issue might arise. When ones goes to a capital city such as London there is a vast array of theatres at which there are West End musicals, plays and whatever else, but there is also the Royal Festival Hall, the Barbican and other theatres. They are run on a complementary basis. I do not believe we are all after the same punter, although there is obviously an overlap. I might go to a symphony orchestra concert one night and bring my family to a show another night. Therefore, I may attend those two events but I am a different consumer. It builds audiences for those kind of events. I do not believe that particular venue is well set up for, say, orchestral concerts and in that sense it is not in direct competition with us but it helps to bring more people to a theatrical and musical experience which ultimately will pay off for us all.

I was asked about bringing music to disadvantaged areas. Again, I would defer to my colleagues in the concert hall for the exact answers on that area but I am aware that the Learn & Explore programme addresses those areas for disadvantaged children and people with special needs. That has been growing apace, and there is a plan in place to do more of that. We are talking about reaching thousands of children but we need more funding and more philanthropy to do more, but there is a plan to do that. It is the right thing to do with our resources and our access to great musicians but also it is how we can build audiences for the future and in that regard it achieves two objectives.

Deputy McLellan asked about Music Changes Lives and what we can do in that regard. Again I refer to the Learn & Explore programme and the outreach programme. We also have curriculum concerts for people studying for their junior and leaving certificates. They happen during the day and young people are brought to those. It is a long, slow process but something I have learned from my business experience is that patience and consistency are two great allies to building something. I know something about building a brand. I have been working with Jameson Irish Whiskey for almost 30 years and the main thing is consistency, persistence and doing the right thing over a long period of time. That is what pays off in those areas.

Deputy Coonan asked if I intended to establish a drinks visitor centre in the concert hall. I am not sure that is something I would have at the top of my agenda but the Deputy is right to identify the visitor centres as a continuum. The concert hall is central to high art music and popular music in Ireland but people come to Ireland for cultural tourism. That might include a visit to the concert hall to hear a local classical artist or some good Irish traditional music if they are here when the ESB Feis Ceoil, music live, is on. It might incorporate a visit to the Guinness Storehouse and the old Jameson distillery. They are all part of the tourism offering, and there is a continuum in that regard. I believe I bring an understanding of the importance of those types of tourism structures and attractions to the job.

On funding for the development, the plan being put in place and that will be proposed to Government will show a continuation of the Government funding of the concert hall, the grant in aid, but with the grant in aid becoming a smaller proportion of the overall turnover of the concert hall as we develop because the three auditoria - the main auditorium, the 500 seater and the smaller performance base of 175 to 200 seats - allow for many more performances, much more diversity in music and many more ticket sales, particularly when the main auditorium is not tied up for rehearsals of the symphony orchestra most days of the week. It will provide much more flexibility for the main auditorium to be used during the day for musical events, corporate events or whatever but there will be much more flexibility in its use and much more potential for income in that area.

Chairman

Another six speakers want to contribute and we are due to hear from the National Transport Authority at the conclusion of this meeting. I ask members to ask questions of Mr. Tobin as opposed to commentary or refer to comments Mr. Tobin made following his initial address. I call Deputy Kevin Humphreys.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

On the redesign and the two projects that back on to the Iveagh Gardens, does Mr. Tobin see that coming on stream? I represent the area and I felt it was an exciting project, even in terms of the two firms that competed for it.

The last two events were inner city communities performing in the National Concert Hall. One of them involved young people who had learned to play the strings but it was interesting to hear the parents and the attendees say they never thought they would ever go in the door of the National Concert Hall, and quite a number of them have had repeat visits. The problem, and we found this when we did programmes with the Abbey Theatre, is to get people to go through the door the first time. It is easier to get them to go in a second time. There is a sense of elitism in the concert hall and the Abbey Theatre and the difficulty is to try to get the different communities and groups across the country who would not normally go to the concert hall to attend for the first time, and outreach is important in that regard. I apologise in advance for not being able to be present for Mr. Tobin's answer but I am due to return to the finance committee meeting at 4 p.m.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

I wish Mr. Tobin the best of luck. I have a brief question. He mentioned that the planned expansion had been reduced. How much was spent on the proposal up to the time the project was abandoned? What were the projected costs of the original expansion and what is the cost of what is on the table now? How much has been spent to date by the National Concert Hall in drawing up new proposals for its expansion?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Much of what I wanted to address has been asked by other speakers but I want to compliment Mr. Tobin on the impressive presentation. It is clear the National Concert Hall is in good hands based on his commercial experience and great love of the genre of music about which he spoke.

Anything Mr. Tobin can do to enhance a better understanding of classical music by a wider audience would be welcome. It is not about changing the concert hall programming. It would be wrong to suggest the concert hall should appeal to everybody because there are other facilities that cater for other genres of music and other traditions which are supported, and rightly so. Whatever Mr. Tobin can do in his role as the incoming chairman - I expect he will be chairman - to develop a broader appreciation of classical music would be welcome.

The elitist tag is not so much the fault of the National Concert Hall but a reticence in society to believe that classical music is not the preserve of the elite. Anything Mr. Tobin can do to break down that belief and to give people a greater love or better understanding of the music will be welcome. I wish him well. I have no doubt her will be very successful in his new role.

Senator Cáit Keane

Unlike Deputy Dooley's question, my primary question is on incorporating more Irish culture into the programming of the National Concert Hall. Senator Ó Murchú is sitting beside me and I know Ceoltas Ceolteoírí Éireann does a great job in that regard but the concert hall has a role to play also.

I am particularly interested in linking that to the third level institutions in that they should do more than concentrate on education, the curriculum and output of students. The manufacturing of uilleann pipes is gone from Ireland and we are depending on the enterprise boards, not any cultural organisations, to save our own culture. A national concert institution, in conjunction with the Arts Council, should have a part to play in preserving our national identity, be it through musical instruments or the visitor centres mentioned by a previous speaker. I would envisage visitor centres having displays of music through the ages in terms of our national instruments, and the National Concert Hall would have a major part to play in that.

I would point out that the Arts Council divided its funding between traditional and classical music. What part of the funding comes from the Arts Council because there are two ways to draw down funding?

On music and health mentioned by a previous speaker, music is used in the prevention of Alzheimer's disease. Mention was made of outreach but I ask Mr. Tobin to incorporate all of that into the national curriculum, through his third level proposal, which is a good idea. All of that should be incorporated into the work of the National Concert Hall.

I congratulate the chairman designate. For how long has he held that position? I am sure the outline curriculum he has put before us will be implemented. I would like to caution against something. The GAA has outlawed drink advertising in a sporting context. I encourage the National Concert Hall to do likewise. When people visit Ireland, too much of it is linked to people drinking pints.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I wish Mr. Tobin the best of luck in his role. I am sure this challenging time is exciting for him. I hope Mr. Tobin and the board are successful in their endeavours over the next five years. I understand from what has been said that the authorities at the National Concert Hall hope to make progress with the plans for the development of the concert hall. Is there a plan B if a development of the scale that has been outlined, which would cost millions of euro, does not happen in these financially challenging times? Perhaps such a plan could involve the consolidation of the concert hall's audience and the development of what it offers.

The National Concert Hall is a national cultural institution for music. Does Mr. Tobin agree that if it is to break down the barriers and make its services accessible to everybody, it needs to build a relationship with regional theatres of all sizes throughout the country?

Mr. Tobin mentioned that some learn and explore programmes are being pursued away from the National Concert Hall site. I am not aware of such programmes. I would be interested to hear more about where exactly they are located.

I would like to ask a question about the surplus of €64,000 per annum that was mentioned. Is Mr. Tobin satisfied with that figure, in light of the size and location of the concert hall? I know of smaller venues that are not far from that even though they are being run on a shoestring.

Other members referred to the programming of traditional arts. I join them in asking Mr. Tobin to consider that.

Reference has been made to the jobs situation and the challenges the National Concert Hall faces in recruiting and paying people. Does Mr. Tobin consider that volunteerism has a part to play in the concert hall's new programme? I know from my experience that many retired people over the age of 55 are talented and active. They constitute a fantastic resource. I ask Mr. Tobin to consider availing of their services as volunteers, if he is not doing so already. It would help to break down barriers because such people have networks that could be introduced to the concert hall.

I have asked all my questions. I wish Mr. Tobin well in his role. I hope many people will go through the doors of the National Concert Hall in the next five years. The members of this committee need to communicate the message that a visit to a theatre or other arts facility is a fabulous night out and represents fantastic value for money. In the current climate, people should reflect on what they used to do many years ago rather than on the wining and dining they used to spend hundreds of euro on in more recent years. If they go to their local theatre for €20, they will have a great night out. I wish Mr. Tobin all the best.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

Cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. Tobin agus gabhaim buíochas leis. The vision and vigour of the presentation that has been given augurs well for the future of the National Concert Hall. I wish Mr. Tobin well in his post. The great track record and reputation of the National Concert Hall is a foundation on which to build. Senator Keane did an excellent job of making a comprehensive proposal. It is important to give recognition to Irish things, which are attractive at the moment for Irish people and for tourists. Her proposal could be of benefit to the concert hall.

It is worth bearing in mind that the arts have a role to play in lifting the spirits of the people, particularly during recessionary times. I presume Mr. Tobin has this in mind. The arts also have a role to play in cultural tourism. According to the most recent survey, the top three things tourists are looking for in Ireland are heritage, history and culture. It is important to bear in mind those strong points.

Mr. Tobin will find that the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, is ready to listen to him. He will do well with any proposal he makes. I would like to ask a few quick questions. I am not sure if the current plan is plan A or plan B.

I notice how well the University of Limerick has done in accessing major finance from the American foundations. I really mean it when I say it was "major". The status of the concert hall will have a particular appeal to the terms of reference of some of those foundations. I assume the chairman designate will consider that. The amount of money that is needed demands a great deal of collecting and a great deal of energy. It is possible to get a major contribution from one of the foundations. I have a particular foundation in mind.

I will not make any reference to elitism or otherwise. I do not know if that image exists. I would like to make a suggestion, however. The many excellent amateur musical societies throughout the country have a huge following in their own right. If it were possible for the National Concert Hall to bring them to Dublin to avail of facilities and reduced costs, it would be of assistance. Has Mr. Tobin considered that?

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

I thank Mr. Tobin for his explanation of what the National Concert Hall does. I have to say I do not know much about it. I have never been there. I agree that the many benefits of culture are difficult to list on a spreadsheet. I refer to suicide prevention, for example. Culture makes life more interesting and makes it more worthwhile to live. It is difficult to put a value on that. There are many such benefits.

Like others, I hate to see cultural institutions being funded through alcohol advertising. I do not think Irish people need to be encouraged to drink. We will drink anyway. I suggest that "advertising" and "promoting" are different words for "pushing". To be honest, it is not right with illegal drugs and it is not right with legal drugs either. I hope we never see the day when music and culture, which prevent misery, have to depend on the potential misery of others to secure funding.

I would like to suggest where the National Concert Hall might get some money. It has been suggested that the television licence fee should be replaced with a universal household charge or another payment. Surely it would be better to divert some of that money towards the National Concert Hall, which would be to the benefit of tourism and culture, etc., rather than using it to purchase another episode of some American sitcom that can be seen free-to-air on another station anyway. I suggest that a tourist coming to Ireland would get more of a thrill from seeing something at the National Concert Hall than from watching "Friends" on our national television station in his or her hotel bedroom.

It would be better to spend the money in the manner I have outlined. There would be more benefit from it. As in other areas of this country, there is not much of a shortage of money in this area. It is just that the money is being wasted in areas where it could be better spent. I hope the Government reflects on such matters when the universal household charge is introduced. It is meant to be about the promotion of culture. That is what RTE was meant to be about, but it has failed miserably. It would be good to see that money diverted in the direction of the National Concert Hall.

I wish Mr. Tobin the best of luck if he is made permanent.

Mr. Kieran Tobin

I thank members for their encouraging words. I would like to make the general point that the diversity of encouragement is great. My colleagues in the Gallery are listening intently to what has been said. Some interesting threads are coming through from our conversation. There is a thread of strong support for what the National Concert Hall does. The need to break down the barriers to make the concert hall more obviously accessible to everyone has been another constant thread in this discussion. That is important. Deputy Corcoran Kennedy asked if we have a plan B. This is plan B. I am not sure if we have a plan C but we will go ahead and look for the resources for plan B because it makes most sense for the long-term sustainability of the National Concert Hall with a moderate level of expenditure. Three auditoria would give us more flexibility and a significantly enhanced revenue allowing us to be less dependent on State funding.

The idea of volunteerism and having younger and older people voluntarily working in the National Concert Hall is an excellent proposal. It should be noted that the new board is voluntary. It is well worth following up this proposal.

The surplus of €64,000 is the average over the past 30 years. Last year the surplus was between €180,000 to €200,000. It was even higher in previous years. We have built up reserves which will help cushion the inevitable downturn in income when the hall is redeveloped.

Associations with regional theatres and arts centres was raised which is another point I will get my colleagues to note and exploit further. Many of the regional theatres and arts centres are hungry for good performances. While the National Concert Hall is for music, we can explore other opportunities that could be presented with such an association.

Senators Keane and Ó Murchú were strong on national cultural performances. While we put on a reasonably high quality range of Irish music performances, there is an opportunity to expand that. We would adopt a commercial approach to this during the summer when there are more tourists visiting. My idea is that a French tourist, for example, will attend a classical music event one evening and, having enjoyed it so much, will return several nights later to an Irish music concert. When asked by his friends at home what he made of it, he will tell them it was very good and not expensive. It is the mark of excellence for the National Concert Hall that is important.

Senator Ó Murchú pointed out how successful University Concert Hall, Limerick, was in tapping into major sources of American funding. He left it open for us to come back to him on this. The National Concert Hall has started to work on what we hope will be a rich vein of funding. There are plans afoot to get this ball rolling seriously. If Senator Ó Murchú has other ideas about this, we would like to talk to him about them.

Deputy Luke Flanagan pointed out that I was chairman of the Drinks Industry Group of Ireland. I do not intend to put a drinks industry brand over the concert hall. That said, most people like to have a drink during the interval. The drinks industry wants to see its products consumed in such a moderate, responsible and enjoyable way. People enjoy a drink during the interval. Fair dues to them, it helps pay the bills for me.

I am not sure about the universal household charge.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Neither are we.

Mr. Kieran Tobin

I appreciate the members' words about the importance of culture to the soul of the nation and its economic contribution through cultural tourism. The National Concert Hall receives a subvention of €2.8 million from the State every year. Proportionally, it is significantly smaller than that received by other national cultural institutions. We must respond to our public service remit and give a good return for it.

What do I want to see for the concert hall after my five-year term? In medicine they say, "First do no harm". It is my intention to do no harm to what is already a very good concert hall. I want to pass on to my successor and the next board a redeveloped, reinvigorated and refreshed concert hall that will be fit for purpose for the next three decades. I hope the next chairman and board can build on what I contributed to and the 30 years of great work already done.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Tobin. That concludes our consideration of this topic. On behalf of the committee, I wish Mr. Tobin well on what is an important task of combining the cultural and economic aspects of the arts.

The committee will forward a copy of the Official Report of this meeting to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, for his consideration.