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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011

Role and Functions: Discussion with Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland

I welcome Professor William Reville, chairman designate of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland I thank him for his attendance and I draw his attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Professor Reville and ask him to address the meeting.

Professor William Reville

I thank the Chairman. I sent a long statement to the committee and I now propose to go through it informally as that will leave more time to discuss matters.

I am very pleased to be here. This is a very fine place to work. I have not been before an Oireachtas committee before but I have seen the proceedings on television. I thought the room would be a long rectangle and not circular.

Let me summarise my statement. The role of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, is to provide for the protection of the public from unnecessary exposure to ionising radiation. Ionising radiation is the type of radiation associated with radioactive substances and also X-rays in medicine. Broadly, there are three pillars to what the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland does. It regulates users of ionising radiation in Ireland through a licensing system. We have almost 2,000 licensed users. It assesses the exposure of the public to ionising radiation and it advises the public and the Government on how to minimise exposure to ionising radiation.

The RPII developed out of the Nuclear Energy Board, which preceded it but it has a different remit to the Nuclear Energy Board and has been in operation since 1992. It has established a very fine reputation, both at home and abroad. I have selected four topics which I consider to be particularly important to the work of the RPII in the next several years.

The RPII works to minimise the exposure of the public to radon gas. This is a 24 hours a day, seven days a week exposure to natural radiation. In simple terms it is a public health issue. Exposure to radon gas is heavily implicated in up to 200 deaths per year in Ireland. That statistic is in the same sphere as the number of road deaths and death from suicide, of which we hear a great deal. We do not hear that much about radon gas, unfortunately. It is a major public health matter and is the major source of exposure of the public to ionising radiation.

Radon is a natural gas. It seeps out of the earth up to the air and we unavoidably breath it in. It emits radiation and irradiates our lunges, giving rise to the risk of lung cancer. It is natural and most of the radiation we receive is natural radiation and most of that natural radiation, two thirds of it, is radon. The good news is that we can do something to minimise our exposure to radon, when we can do very little about the rest of natural radiation, and that is good. The bad news is that the public is not very interested or engaged with radon.

Radon comes out of the earth and up into the air, and it tends to build up indoors. The problem is that it is indoor exposure to radon. The RPII conducted a survey of the entire country and has identified high radon areas in the country. We have indoor air concentrations in Ireland that are among the highest radon concentrations in the world. It is a very real problem. A reference level is set for radon levels in indoor level and that is the concentration of radon at or above which the householder is advised to take action to reduce radon levels.

They can be reduced in a simple way. The RPII offers a service of measuring radon in indoor air. It costs about €50. If one finds that the indoor air concentration is higher than or at the reference level, one can have remediation works done by a private firm that will cost approximately €1,000 to €1,500.

There is little public interest in radon and of the national housing stock of 1750,000, only 43 houses are on the data base for having been measured. There has been very little remediation carried out. The RPII publicises the radon problem in several ways. It concentrates on the high radon areas in the country but it also does it for the entire country and conducts radon road shows to the high radon areas.

There is a strategy being developed for a national radon policy because this is a real public health issue. Other stakeholders, apart from the RPII are being recruited to help with this, in particular the HSE, local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. This is bread and butter work that goes on every day and it is very important.

We need to be more successful and minimise the exposure of the public to radon. It is part of the strategic plan that the RPII engages with a range of these important stakeholders and the Department of Health and the HSE are very important stakeholders. This is a health problem. The HSE has good credibility for advising the public about health. The RPII does it all the time but the HSE has public credibility in this area above and beyond what the RPII would have, so engaging with the HSE and getting it on board to publicise this is important.

One very useful strategy that should be used to sensitise people to radon is to appeal to parents to have their radon levels checked in the home and if they are high to have them reduced in the interests of protecting their children. It is the same as cigarette smoking. No parent wants to see little Johnny or Mary starting to smoke cigarettes. One could be smoking the equivalent of ten or 15 cigarettes a day by breathing in radon if the radon level is high in one's home. I believe we would have some success by appealing to parents.

Another important area of work for the RPII is to dispose of a build-up of unwanted and unused radiation sources in the country. These have built up over the years and are called legacy sources. Approximately 90% of it is held in third level education and medical institutes. Unfortunately there is no national repository for radioactive waste, so these sources are held in the individual institutes where they were once used. Sometimes they are held under non-ideal conditions. They do not constitute a major radiation hazard, although they constitute some level of hazard. They are a great nuisance for various other reasons, as I know from personal experience at UCC, where we have many of these sources.

I was pleased to learn recently that effective action is under way to reduce our national inventory of these sources and to get rid of them. Money has been made available for this. Over the years, they were stored where they arose.

Before the advent of the Celtic tiger, I rang the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, and asked it how much it would charge to remove UCC's unwanted sources. I was informed that the agency would investigate the matter and get back to me. I vividly recall receiving a telephone call from the IAEA at a later date. The man who contacted me was Japanese and he spoke very stilted and halting English. He informed me that he had a quotation for me and I asked him how much money was involved. He stated that it would cost $7 million. I burst out laughing because at that time the university was being run on pocket change. The man was not familiar with idiom and he thought that when I laughed, I was sneering at him. He said "Excuse, please, this not joke". I replied that it was a joke to me because UCC's then annual budget was €2 million to €3 million. Money is now being made available and we are in a position to get rid of many of our sources for a great deal less than €7 million. I received a quotation of €30,000 in respect of 26 non-nuclear sources we have in Cork. These sources will be exported to countries which have nuclear industries and in which they can be recycled. The Departments of Education and Skills and Health are making the money available.

A new directive establishing a community framework for the responsible and safe management of spent fuel and radioactive waste recently went live at European level. This directive will be transposed into Irish law in 2013 and it will oblige us to have a policy for the management and recycling of radioactive waste. A national implementation committee has been put in place in respect of this matter. That committee is investigating the possibility of establishing some form of storage facility in which what are termed "orphan" sources - that is, no one is willing to accept ownership of them - sources that are seized from those who are abusing them or sources which are difficult to get rid of can be stored. There are always some sources which require to be stored. However, we should be able to get rid of most of them. We will not allow them to build up in the future. The problem in this regard is well on the way to being resolved. It is important that the RPII should, during the next several years, monitor the situation in order to ensure that there will be no backsliding and that those currently who hold on to such sources divest themselves of them. I am delighted with that development.

The third matter to which I wish to refer is non-ionising radiation. The RPII deals only with ionising radiation. As already stated, the latter is radioactive material. However, there is an entire range of other radiations to which we are constantly exposed. These include visible light, ultraviolet light, infra-red radiation, microwave radiation - which relates to mobile phones - and the radiation associated with electricity. We are exposed to these forms of radiation on a continual basis and if one receives a dose greater than the threshold level, it can be dangerous for one's health. There is no single agency in the country which is responsible for advising members of the general public with regard to how they should protect themselves from these radiations. People are far more interested in non-ionising radiation than they are in ionising radiation.

In many other countries the agencies which deal with ionising radiation also deal with non-ionising radiation. That makes sense because the entire ethos of protection against non-ionising radiation is quite similar to that which applies in respect of ionising radiation. Responsibility for advising the public and the Government with regard to non-ionising radiation should be added to the brief of the RPII. That has already been decided in principle. In 2008, the then Government agreed that what I am suggesting would be done. However, it was indicated at the time that some resources would be required in order to allow the RPII to take on the extra workload. The decision to which I refer has not yet been brought into effect but I would like to see it happening. At the time, the idea was that the RPII would take responsibility for not all non-ionising radiation to begin with but rather that associated with mobile phones and overhead power lines. The latter are the two forms of radiation about which members of the public are most concerned. I receive far more inquiries from people about non-ionising radiation produced by mobile phones and electrical devices and cables than in respect of ionising radiation. There is a major need for a single central body to be put in place to answer queries from the public and to advise the Government about matters such as that. If what I am suggesting is to happen in the next few years, I presume we will be obliged to proceed in a way which will not require the provision of a huge level of additional resources. I am of the view that it should happen, however, because it is extremely important for the general public and for Ireland as a whole.

The final matter to which I wish to refer in the context of my personal vision for the RPII relates to its public profile. The RPII is a relatively small operation which employs approximately 50 staff. It is not easy to achieve a high public profile. The institute has a good profile but it could certainly be better. If, for example, one carried out a survey of adults throughout the country, one would discover that only about one in four are aware of the existence of the RPII. The position in this regard should be improved. If the institute gains a good public profile and becomes well known, well regarded and trusted, this would be a great enabler in the context of all the work it does. If it achieved that profile, members of the public would listen attentively to advice regarding radon, information about nuclear accidents abroad and what should be done here, and advice on what to do in the event of an emergency. If there was ever a major accident involving the nuclear industry in the UK, we would be obliged to take special precautions. The better the institute's public profile, the better it will be for everyone.

It is easy to achieve a bad public profile. The way to achieve a good profile is through the media. Fortunately, the work the institute does is intrinsically interesting. It should not be that difficult, therefore, to interest the media more in what we do in the context of monitoring the environment for radiation and monitoring food. Many countries require radiation certificates in respect of food imports. They will not accept such imports unless they are provided with such certificates. As members are aware, agriculture will eventually rescue this country. We have all sorts of multinationals, etc., which provide great employment. However, agriculture remains our major natural resource and it is going to enjoy a comeback. If we cannot certify the food we produce as being pretty much free of artificial radiation, we will encounter difficulties. We do not have a nuclear industry but we can provide the certification required. The RPII routinely supplies such certification and does a great deal of other important work including monitoring drinking water and air quality. If a nuclear accident occurs abroad, the monitors the institute has in place throughout the country will immediately alert us to the existence of any radioactive fallout. In addition, the RPII engages in a high level of interaction with similar agencies abroad.

It is important that the institute should have a good public profile. I have personal experience of the media and I write a column for The Irish Times and my work in UCC involves encouraging public awareness and understanding of science. I have had a great deal of experience in successfully explaining scientific matters to the public and I have good contacts in the media. I would hope to be able to work in a synergistic way with the communications committee of the RPII and with its PR consultants in order to further improve its public profile.

It will only take a minute to outline my personal qualifications for the job. That is not because I possess few qualifications but rather because I do not intend to dwell on them. I am a scientist. I have a BSc and PhD in science and as such have a professional understanding of the nature of radiation and its effects on the body. I have worked as a radiation protection officer at UCC since 1978 and liaised closely with the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, during all that time. I was a founding board member of the RPII in 1992 and served on the board until 1997. I also chaired the public relations sub-committee at that time. I have been a member of two other national boards over the years.

I have a great deal of media experience. I have been writing a science column for The Irish Times since January 1995. I am the public awareness of science officer at UCC in respect of which I organise annual public lectures and operate a website. I have been working at UCC since 1975 and have a lot of academic and administrative experience, eventually at senior level. I have also chaired many committees.

Thank you, Professor Reville.

I thank Professor Reville for his presentation and the information he forwarded to the joint committee, which was informative. I am sure Professor Reville is capable of doing the job at hand.

What are the implications if radon is detected in a house and how long does it take to rectify the problem? Are children and people with ill-health more at risk than healthy people? Smoke detectors are available. Are radon detectors available? Is it possible to check an area for radon prior to the building there of a housing estate or can radon testing be only done on buildings? If so, could it be a condition of planning that where radon is detected measures are put in place to counteract it prior to or during build?

I agree with Professor Reville that the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland is not well known. Would he consider running advertisement campaigns similar to those run by the Road Safety Authority, which are effective? Professor Reville might also consider running campaigns in the social media such as Facebook and Twitter, which are used by many young people. I believe such campaigns can be effective.

With regard to mobile telephone masts, should these be located a particular distance from schools and housing estates?

Professor William Reville

The Deputy's first question was where radon is detected and is found to be too high, how long it would take to reduce it. One would employ a radon remediation company, of which there are many in the country, to undertake minor works, including activation of a sump under a ground floor room, installation of pipework under the house through to the outside turning upwards to the eves of the house at which point a pump is inserted to suck air from under the floor slab of the house. One would hope that would reduce the radon levels. I do not know how long it would take to locate a company to do that work but once started it would take a week to complete. It does not take long: only a few days. It costs approximately €1,000 to €1,500 and is usually effective. One could, before employing a radon remediation company, try to improve ventilation in the house. Improving ventilation by opening windows and so on could help reduce radon concentration. However, if that did not work one would then have to call in a company to do the work.

As regards whether radon detectors are available, the answer is "No". It is not possible to measure radon instantaneously. It is not possible to get an accurate measurement that way. The best way to measure radon is with a kit from the RPII, which should be shared between the most occupied rooms of the house for three months. Three months is required in order to get a stable reading. It is possible to get a reading within a week using a carbon type detector but it is not as accurate. That radon is detected in a house should not be a cause for concern. People often live for years in a house without worrying about radon so another three months is not a big deal.

Building regulations specify that all new build in high radon areas - we now know where they are because of the work of the RPII - must have a radon impermeable barrier in their foundations or under the house so that radon cannot get through. This can be done in respect of the building of a house anywhere, at a cost of approximately €500, which would be a good investment. New houses must now by law have passive sumps under them. If one discovers a radon problem the sump can be activated, thus cutting down on the remediation work.

Advertisement campaigns would be a good idea except they are expensive. However, the Government could allocate us money to do that.

I thank Professor Reville for his presentation, which was informative. Deputy McLellan has covered a number of the questions I wished to ask. However, I have a number of other questions arising out of Professor Reville's presentation.

Professor Reville suggested that radon gas is implicated in up to 200 deaths per annum and correctly stated that large amounts of money are spent in other areas such as, for example, road safety. Is there data available to support Professor Reville's statement that radon gas is responsible for up to 200 deaths? Is there medical evidence in that regard? If so - I do not doubt Professor Reville's integrity in that regard - a great deal of investment in this area is warranted. Other areas receive support for information campaigns and so on.

On the legacy sources, Professor Reville suggested that funding is being made available to deal with that matter. It is hoped he is not confining all that money to Cork. Is the Government providing enough funding to cover all sources, 90% of which Professor Reville indicated are in the medical and university sectors? In Professor Reville's opinion, is the Government providing his organisation with enough funding to deal with all the legacy sources?

With whom does the institute interact in terms of advising the Government on how to minimise public exposure to ionising radiations? In regard to the non-ionising area, am I correct that Professor Reville stated that the institute does not have jurisdiction in that area? Is there in existence any agency that looks after it? As Professor Reville correctly stated, it is an area which evokes much concern among the public in terms of mobile telephone masts and overhead power lines.

If Professor Reville had a wish list, what measures would he like to see the Government introduce to assist the institute in achieving its targets? What would be top of his wish list in terms of what Government needs to be doing to assist the institute in its important work?

A vote has been called in the Dáil. I ask Professor Neville to respond briefly to Deputy Walsh's question following which we will adjourn.

Professor William Reville

Work on the effects of radon is ongoing. The best work done was probably that on miners working underground years ago, at which time no precautions were taken to ventilate mines. They were studied intensively. The risk to them of certain levels of radon was worked out and has been built on since. An interesting finding was that miners who smoked were far more at risk because the risk from cigarette smoking is cancer and the risk from radon exposure is cancer. However, the two risks do not add up. If one is a smoker and one is breathing radon, these two independent risks are not one's total risk. If one has a risk of five independently of getting lung cancer and a risk of five from smoking, one's total risk is 25, not ten. The two risks are multiplied. There is a lot of evidence; it is not just a notion people have about radon.

How do we advise Government? The Department to which the RPII reports is the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and there are regular contacts between them at chief executive officer level and through various committees. There is feedback from Europe and it is all in train and working well.

I am sorry. We have to suspend briefly for a division in the House.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 p.m. and resumed at 11.25 p.m.

I welcome Professor Reville. The other committee room is as he described and he does not really want to go there as that is where the Committee of Public Accounts is meeting.

I have a question on radon gas. Professor Reville covered the comparison made with smoking cigarettes. If someone was to put in a sump and pump out the air, how significantly would the risk be reduced based on exposure time? For someone at risk of developing lung cancer, are there key periods? Is it five, ten or 15 years? Is there a chart showing the average figures?

I agree that we need information on power lines and mobile phones. It needs to be given to some agency - perhaps the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland - but we need to consider the matter further.

I know there is a significant amount of waste in University College Cork and the Department of Education and Skills is providing €30,000 to deal with the legacy issues. Department of Health money was also mentioned. Will this fully clear the legacy issue at UCC which has been dragging on for a long time?

On the information on iodine tablets, a measure which went through in the last session, I know they were issued to my household, but I have no notion where they are. Is it planned to issue them on some future date because I presume they have a shelf life? Was it money well spent? If it is recommended that it be done again, we should consider whether it is the appropriate approach.

Professor William Reville

The Deputy asked what level of reduction would be achieved if remediation works were undertaken on a house with a radon level of 250 Bq per cu. m. It would not be possible to guarantee in advance the level of reduction. However, I would certainly expect the level to be reduced below 200 Bq per cu. m, which is the reference level. A level of 50 Bq per cu. m or 60 Bq per cu. m in the home is the national mean. At a level of 200 Bq per cu. m one's natural risk of contracting lung cancer is doubled. Therefore, it is reckoned as a rule of thumb that it is worth spending money and making the effort to reduce radon if it rises to a level at which one's natural risk of contracting lung cancer is doubled.

Of course, one would expect it to reduce to below 200 Bq per cu. m. This is not exactly predictable so if one is very lucky and a very good job has been done it will reduce to 100 Bq per cu. m. By how much this will reduce one's risk is a theoretical estimate and I really do not know. Certainly it will reduce one's risk and one could assume a direct relationship whereby if it had been 200 Bq per cu. m and is now 100 Bq per cu. m one's risk has been halved. This is a rough off the top of my head idea and not an expert opinion.

UCC has two categories of waste, namely, ordinary sources and nuclear sources. All nuclear sources are radioactive, and in simple terms a nuclear source is something that is used in the nuclear industry or has arisen from the nuclear industry or nuclear power. This is far more difficult to deal with because of international treaties and the fact that it is more sensitive because of its implications for weaponry. What we hold has no implications for weaponry but anything nuclear is treated in a very sensitive way. Therefore, it is far more difficult for us to dispose of this than waste from non-nuclear sources. The estimate I gave was for non-nuclear sources and we have approximately 30 of these. The quota I received was approximately €30,000.

Does this include the legacy issue of the reactor which the United States gave us in the 1980s?

Professor William Reville

No, that is nuclear.

So it does not deal with that issue.

Professor William Reville

No, it does not. However, it would be a great relief to us to get rid of the non-nuclear sources because we have many of them and some of them are still fairly radioactive. Money is available and I am confident the Department of Education and Skills has funding earmarked for this. I am not sure how much money has been earmarked for the medical situation. The RPII is doing everything it can to persuade the powers that be to ensure money becomes available. I understand it will because there are many sources in the medical area. However, I cannot be sure of this.

Our nuclear sources are more difficult to deal with because they are nuclear even though they are not particularly dangerous. We have 2,500 tonnes of natural uranium, which is uranium found in the rocks. It does not do us any harm there. In theory, the natural uranium we have could be put back into the earth somewhere but we are not allowed to do so, although it should not cause any great hazard if it were done carefully. Intrinsically, it is not very dangerous. We also have a plutonium source which is fairly radioactive and we need to store it carefully to protect the public. We also have 1.6 g of enriched uranium. This is very sensitive but we have only a small amount so it is not that significant. These are our nuclear sources and were given to us as a gift by the Government of the United States under the atoms for peace programme in the 1970s.

Can we give them back?

Professor William Reville

This is what we are trying to do. It is a bit embarrassing, but we are speaking to the United States in the hope that they will take back this gift, which we accepted gratefully at the time, because we no longer use it.

The Greeks and Trojans come to mind.

Professor William Reville

Yes. We tried this previously without success but it looks more positive this time. It seems the United States will take it back. We will probably need to encourage them through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It will take a while to organise it. I also hope they will not charge us very much to take it back.

Is there a timeline for this?

Professor William Reville

I hope we will be making plans to ship it by the end of next year. This is merely a hope as it is difficult to deal with. We will be able to shift the non-nuclear sources and this is a great relief.

What about the iodine tablets?

Professor William Reville

A judgment call was made at the time to issue iodine tablets and I do not know whether it was right or wrong. It is difficult to be in that situation. Iodine has its own side effects and taking it can make someone ill. The idea is that taking iodine blocks the thyroid gland so a release of radioactive iodine cannot get into one's thyroid gland, which accumulates iodine, because it is already filled with cold iodine. However, this has side effects. If iodine was released in a significant nuclear incident in the UK, off the top of my head my attitude would be that it would be useful to distribute iodine tablets here. They were very expensive and are now out of date. The Minister of State at the time was laughed at a great deal and I have much sympathy for him because he did not have in-depth knowledge of radiation physics and radiobiology. At very short notice he was quizzed very intensely on radio and television. He was doing his best under advice but at the time it was risible.

I raised the issue because I was afraid the Chairman would be in a similar position and I wanted it clarified.

To be clear, the iodine tablets which were distributed are now out of date and there is no plan to reissue them as a preventative measure.

Professor William Reville

The simple answer is that I do not know.

Is this an area in which the Government would seek advice from Professor Reville?

Professor William Reville

Yes, indeed it would. I do not know what plans are there. I would imagine if a certain category incident happened abroad we would examine whether we should issue iodine tablets. However they would need to be distributed quickly and I do not know how quickly they can be obtained. I will discuss it in the near future with the RPII.

On the same issue, since when have they been out of date?

Professor William Reville

I am not sure whether they are out of date but I think they are. They are certainly past their best before date.

The recommended date for their use has passed.

Professor William Reville

Yes.

I apologise for having to leave the meeting earlier. I hope I will not repeat previous questions. As the iodine tablets are so topical, how do those of us who put them away very safely dispose of them?

I am very concerned about exposure to radon in domestic settings. Perhaps few people are engaging with this because few are speaking about it. Perhaps the public education and information element needs to be reviewed. There was much discussion about it several years ago and it came up regularly in magazines, periodicals and radio discussions. However, it seems to have gone off the agenda. A great way of getting information into every household in the country is through children. We saw with recycling that children will nag parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and everyone else. Are there plans to introduce an education programme such as this in primary and secondary schools or perhaps in transition year? Transition year organisers often seek interesting projects and something like this could be considered.

The community fora of local authorities are good mechanisms for getting information out into communities, as almost every village has a community development organisation. If there is none, a village probably has several offshoots of such an organisation. Has an option like this been considered for making information available? It is frightening that our homes, which we view as the safest places for us to be, might be killing us.

Professor William Reville

How to dispose of the potassium iodide is a good question. I do not know the best way, but it is soluble in water. We will revert to the committee with the information. Unless they have been thrown out, every home in the country has these tablets. I will not answer off the top of my head.

The Deputy's idea about involving children was great. I am not on the job yet, but it had not occurred to me. Since this subject matter is intrinsically fascinating, children would be interested. We will take the Deputy up on her idea and I thank her for her suggestion.

When the Minister, Deputy Hogan, addresses the national radon forum tomorrow, he will announce the new national radon strategy. Health, local authority and other stakeholders will be recruited by the RPII and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to get the solution to the radon problem off the ground synergistically. One could be sitting at home not smoking or drinking, eating organic, high-fibre food, exercising one's brains and believing that one is great but people do not have any idea of the radon levels in their homes. The level in a house could be as high as the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes per day, yet one would not know. It is important that we improve awareness and protect children.

I agree with the Deputy's comments on community fora and I welcome the suggestions she has made.

Are the local authorities aware of radon-heavy pockets around the country? When planning applications for houses, apartments and so on are made, high radon levels in accommodation could be taken into consideration. Would Professor Reville advocate this approach?

Professor William Reville

The local authorities know, as there is a map of the country that shows the strength of radon concentrations in 10 km squares. However, one cannot predict radon concentrations in specific areas. Even if one is living in a low radon area, one's house could have high levels of radon. Radon levels vary significantly every 50 yards. One could live in a low radon house in a high radon area because, on average, that area's geology predisposes it to radon.

Building a house in a high radon area is not dangerous. Thank God, as much of the country would be in trouble otherwise. All one must do to be protected is install a radon barrier beneath the house, as radon comes up from the ground.

The RPII's chairman worried me when he stated that radon is inclined to get through limestone easily. To be parochial, there is a great deal of limestone at the Laois end of my constituency of Laoighis-Offaly. Professor Reville mentioned that one house might be okay whereas a house built one or one and a half miles away might have serious radon problems, but is the problem more prevalent in particular counties? Levels of 30,000 Bqm-3, some 150 times the RPII's national reference level, have been recorded. This indicates that there is a serious problem. If only 2.5% of homes have been tested, the problem could be more acute than we believe. Deputy Corcoran Kennedy's suggestions were good.

When I was in one part of the country recently, I saw high-voltage cables running directly above the roofs of terraced houses. What is Professor Reville's opinion in this regard?

The debate on mobile telephone masts died off in this country approximately ten years ago. The proximity of masts to schools, crèches and houses is an issue. Australia and New Zealand share a different view than ours. Are we at risk from masts?

Professor Reville mentioned food exports. Producing safe food is important, but the image is as important as the reality. We must maintain that image, particularly in light of the drive to increase food production under Food Harvest 2020. What is the level of monitoring in this respect?

As Deputy Humphreys and I have a meeting at noon, I am keen to finish this meeting before then. I ask that Professor Reville respond briefly. Before he does, I will also ask a few questions.

During the week, I received a telephone call from a constituent regarding the insulation programme being funded by the Government. The constituent was concerned that installing attic insulation, keeping windows closed and so on would trap radon gas inside the house.

If someone gets a grant for insulation, he or she must get a better energy rating, BER, certificate at the end of the process. As part of the BER regulation, perhaps the property should be given a radon reading simultaneously. Is there an argument for this?

Professor William Reville

Counties Laois and Offaly do not have particularly high radon levels. The west - counties Galway and Mayo - tends to have high levels, as do parts of Leinster. The RPII's website, rpii.ie, has a good map that clearly shows the areas with high radon levels. One can consult it.

Deputy Stanley mentioned cables over homes. As he knows, the RPII is not involved in addressing that sort of radiation. Generally, one would not like high-tension cable to touch the roof when one is sleeping in the attic every night. It would not be a good idea, although the RPII does not deal with that. One could measure electromagnetic radiation and there are guidelines and advice for levels above which a person should not be exposed. To have them chipping the eaves of the house would not be a good idea.

With regard to mobile phone masts, the risk with mobile phones is generally from a handset and not a mast. The mast would be fenced off with warnings to stay away from it. For someone to be injured by the mast, he or she would have to get past a guard dog, climb the fence, get inside, climb the structure and put his or her head between the beams. I am exaggerating but a person would have to go through several barriers and warnings before getting to a level of radiation that might be harmful. Generally speaking, there is not a high hazard from a mobile phone mast. If a hazard arises it will come from a handset.

Human psychology is vital in this. People are familiar with handsets and love their mobile phones. They do not want to be worried about it, although a person is meant to hold it an inch from the ear as a form of protection. When the signal is good a handset does not have to work so hard and does not generate as much microwave radiation. The idea is to have a good signal, keep the phone an inch from the ear and use the text facility. If a person does this he or she will not be exposed to much radiation, especially if used sparingly. Who wants to know about that? With some people one might think a phone has grown from their ear and every time they are seen they are on the phone. Psychology is important.

Such as politicians.

There are several examples in this building.

Professor William Reville

Deputies would be on the phone constantly.

Deputies and councillors.

Professor William Reville

With regard to food, many countries now require certification for export. This is done routinely and quietly, and it is a vital service provide by the RPII. It would be even more vital if there was an accident abroad with a risk of contamination.

One of the reasons it is important that the RPII and other stakeholders have a close relationship was outlined by the Chairman. If a house has a high level of insulation, the air may be trapped inside. I want reassurance on that and the RPII must have dialogue with local authorities and building regulators on it. When the energy crisis occurred in the 1970s, people tried to get every last bit of use from their heating, as before that radiators were pumping out heat to rooms with open windows. That happened because oil was cheap and people could make big fires. When fuel became dear, the idea was to trap the heat in the house and get the best use possible from every bit of oil or other fuel burned. Nobody knew about radon gas and some houses were built without chimneys. Radon could then build up in houses to dangerous levels and it was only later discovered that ventilation is important. It is important with new insulation measures and regulations that we do not make a mistake. Thought has gone into the issue and it is not yet at crisis level but the RPII must speak to other stakeholders about it because of its importance.

In concluding today's meeting I will make a proposal to the committee. Professor Reville and committee members mentioned on a number of occasions mobile phone masts, handsets and power lines. It is a recommendation that the remit of such issues should come under the remit of the RPII. I suggest that in the committee's report to the Minister at the end of this meeting, we ask him to give very strong consideration to the case made by the witnesses. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of this topic. Is it agreed that the committee will inform the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, that we have concluded our discussion with Professor Reville and that we will forward a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the Minister for his information? Agreed. I thank Professor Reville for coming to us this morning for what was a very detailed and important subject. I wish him well with his appointment and success in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.55 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 November 2011.
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