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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Dec 2011

Supply, Storage and Disposal of Water: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome to the committee Dr. Seán Healy, director, Sr. Brigid Reynolds, director, and Ms Michelle Murphy, research and policy analysis officer, Social Justice Ireland, and Mr. Mick Murphy from the Campaign Against Household and Water Charges. I thank the witnesses for attending today's meeting.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise them that the opening statements they have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose to take opening statements from Social Justice Ireland and the Campaign Against Household and Water Charges. Today we are focusing on the proposed introduction of water charges and metering on domestic customers. We have just had a tough budget and people are suffering. Many families are finding it difficult to pay their bills and the other costs they face. We are well aware the introduction of water charges and metering will not be easy and that is why we are consulting with the two organisations before us today. We want to examine all options open to us and identify proposals and systems that are fair and efficient. This is not an easy task but in the current climate, no task that involves charges is easy. We are fully conscious of this and that is why we are engaging in such wide-ranging consultations. The meeting this evening is one of a number of engagements we have had with representatives from the broadest swathe possible of those interested in this issue.

Dr. Seán Healy

Social Justice Ireland is an organisation of individuals and organisations all of whom are committed to building a just society, which it understands as a society where human rights are respected, human dignity protected, human development facilitated and the environment respected and protected. The environment is an integral part of our raison d’être and we are happy to be invited by the committee to speak on this issue and present some of our ideas on it. I hope what we have to say will be of use to the committee. We will be more than happy to answer questions and with any subsequent follow-up the committee may wish to have.

We believe the introduction of water charges will have a major effect on people. We thought it important that the committee be made aware of the scale of poverty that exists in terms of the working poor and those with no income from a paid job in the household. We will make a case that people are in a situation that must be addressed so they are not further disadvantaged by the introduction of water charges.

The same definition of poverty has been used since 1997 in the Government's own anti-poverty strategy. That definition gives a good understanding of poverty - that people live in poverty if their income and resources are below what would be required to live life with some basic dignity. When the definition refers to resources, it does not refer to just material resources but to cultural and social resources.

When people talk about the numbers of people or households in poverty, the question arises as to what is the poverty line. The poverty line is measured in an agreed manner in all 27 EU countries. Every one of them has the same methodology agreed. It lines up all of the people in the country on the basis of income, starting from the poorest to the richest. It takes the one in the middle, although that is not the average, the amounts are not added up and divided by the number, and the poverty line is set at 60% of the middle value. In 2011, that means for a single person, the poverty line is at €222 per week, or under €11,000 per year. For a household of four, with two adults and two children, it would be €515 per week, less than €27,000 for a household of four per year. That differs for different countries because the line up of income differs and the middle income is different.

The percentage of the population below the poverty line was 14.1% until a couple of weeks ago. In the figures published two weeks ago by the CSO, the poverty line has fallen by more than 10% but the percentage of the population below it has increased from 1.4.1% to 15.8%. While the poverty line is falling, the percentage of the population below it is increasing. The CSO also pointed out the gap between the better off and the poor has widened dramatically. Among those who study these things, the results have caused consternation because the numbers have escalated so quickly.

These things are measured by taking the top 20% and the bottom 20% and looking at relationships between the sets of income. Last year, the top 20% had 4.3 times the income of the bottom 20%. This year, the top 20% has 5.5 times the income of the bottom 20%, an increase of more than a quarter in a single year. That level of growing inequality is staggering and should be seriously noted because of its impact. The number of people in poverty is also important. Forgetting about percentages, some 723,840 people were at risk of poverty in 2010, which is the highest number since 2005. It had been reducing and it was down to 628,761 in 2009, which means there has been an increase of approximately 100,000 in a year. People are aware that more children are at risk of poverty and there are a number of other important matters, but the critical issue with water charges is to recognise that of all the households at risk of poverty almost four in ten are headed by a person with a job - these are the working poor. It is important to understand that many poor people live in households and have jobs. If they are already in poverty requiring them to pay a water charge will hit them very strongly and we will come to our proposals on that in a moment.

As I already mentioned there is significant inequality. There is one other figure that might be useful when considering where to put the hit, if one likes. The richest 10% of the population has more than a quarter of the total income. By contrast the bottom 10% gets 2.39% of the total income. It is clear to us that there would be no fairness or justice in having a flat charge, for example, for water. There have been a number of suggestions but we cannot ignore that poor households could have taken eight different hits. In his opening remarks, the Chairman mentioned that the budget had been tough because of the difficult situation in which we find ourselves but it was also because of the choices made by the Government. The following changes were made: a flat rate household charge of €100; an increase in the carbon levy of €5 per tonne, which will have impact; and a reduction in the fuel allowance from 32 weeks to 26 weeks. The cost of gas and electricity both increased by more than 20% in the past year but now the budget has reduced the value of the fuel allowance by more than 20%.

There has been a 2-percentage point increase in the rate of VAT. Much of the commentary on the budget is that this will not have any great effect on poor people because it will apply to only luxury goods etc. However, we are talking about adults' shoes and clothes, essential toiletries, light bulbs and a range of ordinary day-to-day items people will require. We published our research and analysis on the budget which we sent to Deputies and Senators the following day. On page 3, we set out the research showing where the hit from the VAT increase will be greatest felt. The most surprising thing is that people in the bottom decile, who have 2.39% of the total income, spend more than 14% of their total income on VAT and more than three quarters of it is on VAT at the standard rate which is now to become 23%. While this is not an argument about the budget, those households will also have a fairly sizeable hit as a result of the VAT change and that needs to be put into the frame.

There is a projected increase of 1.9% in inflation, which will basically neutralise the elimination of the universal social charge for those whose income is below €10,036 a year. There will be increased public transport fares, an increased drugs payments scheme threshold and an increase in school transport costs. Those are eight different hits to be absorbed by the same households that are already in poverty. This is an issue of substance about which we need to be careful.

I will now outline our recommendations. We do not believe water should become a commercial issue. For example, we do not believe it should be privatised for the purposes of making profit. There are many examples around the world where that does not work out and where people lose out as a result. Nor do we believe it should be a fundraising system for the Government to deal with budgetary balancing. Water services should be developed in such a way that they pay for themselves. There should be an allocation of 150 litres per day without charge for each adult in a jobless household in receipt of social welfare payments. We picked 150 litres because that is what is acknowledged in the literature as being more than sufficient. In a jobless household that depends on social welfare, every person should have 150 litres per day. There would need to be adjustments for people with disabilities or who are ill and for children. Households below the poverty line, which include a person with a job, should be also entitled to the same allocation.

In addition to the issues I already mentioned of them being in poverty, if unemployed people who take up jobs have to pay for water they did not pay for previously, it becomes an unemployment trap. That issue needs to be addressed and we would simply exclude it. There should be a charge for water used above the threshold amount. That is basically to try to encourage the preservation of water because we understand almost half of the water in the country goes missing and is not accounted for. For households only slightly above this poverty-line threshold there should be a very low rate after that basic free allocation. This charge should be calculated on a sliding scale as people's income grows. We would say it should be a quarter of a standard, half a standard, three quarters of a standard and eventually there would be a standard payment that people would pay after getting a basic allowance.

Before water charges are introduced it is crucial that the Government puts in place a water system that is fit for purpose. The issues that need to be addressed include: leakage, which accounts for 36% of total usage at present; difficulties in implementing river basin management; the 52% collection rate for non-domestic water charges; and the inconsistent water quality in different regions. Water charges should not be introduced until Ireland has a water system that is fit for purpose, which can support the demands placed on it, which does not lose 36% of its water to leakage, and where quality and river basin management are consistent. A future Irish water company must not be allowed to turn into a cartel that charges exorbitant prices while paying its employees huge salaries. The experience of the United Kingdom, of which members probably are aware, is not an approach that should be repeated here. The water executives there privatised the operation and paid themselves a fortune but the ordinary punter has wound up paying the bills. In addition, revenue collected from future water charges should be ring-fenced to support poor and low income households in that context, as well as environmental and sustainable development and the development of a green economy. In addition, we think the Government might consider an important idea, albeit one that is a little to the side of this issue, namely, the development of shadow national accounts, by which we mean the real cost of environmental pluses and minuses that are included in such accounts. Examples of them may be found in other countries and we would benefit from that. At present, one could increase GDP by spending a great deal of money on generating and then wasting water. The more water one generated, the more one would increase GDP. However, this does not appear sensible to us, because one actually is losing water. There is something wrong with the GDP measurement in this area, as there is in so many other areas. We argue that the idea of shadow national accounts also would help in this context.

It is important to make the point that the proposed Irish water company must not be used to pay interest on loans that are used to prop up the banking system. Hopefully this is not what was envisaged but we certainly would not support it. In addition, it must have the capacity to manage periods of water stress such as drought and the management of the system must be in the best interest of the public, as water is a public resource.

Basically, as water is a public resource, there should be a minimum allocation of water per person per day that is without charge. Adequate resources must be made available to support poor and low income households, as I outlined earlier. The Government should provide subsidies to households to encourage the purchase of water-efficient appliances. The infrastructure should be modernised and improved before a system of charges can be implemented and, finally, revenue from these charges must be ring-fenced to prevent them from simply becoming increased Government revenue to be used in other areas.

Mr. Mick Murphy

As Dr. Seán Healy obviously is well-known to all members, perhaps I should introduce myself briefly. I have been a close colleague in the Socialist Party of Deputies Higgins and Clare Daly since the 1980s. I was a leading member of the campaign in Dublin in the 1990s against water charges. We succeeded in having them abolished in 1996 and no one has been obliged to pay since then. I was a member of South Dublin County Council representing Tallaght for five years. Someone said I might bump into Senator Keane here and perhaps she will be along later. I probably drew the short straw to present this information because of my occupation. I have been an engineer in industry for 20 years and deal a lot with energy programmes, water saving programmes and so on. Consequently, I am quite familiar with the science behind this subject, although to be honest one does not need to be, as the figures are pretty straightforward.

I will not read out this submission but will take it as read. I will run through it because from my experience on the council, I know it is better if it is interactive, when people ask questions and so on. The Campaign Against Household and Water Taxes is sure there will be propaganda to the effect that there is a basis for water charging that is connected somehow to the use of water. The particular purpose for which the campaign wished to use this opportunity is to put on the record, through the use of hard facts, that there is not really such a basis and this argument does not stand up. Consequently, if and when the Government gets around to introducing a water charge, it will be purely a taxation on water and will not be for any other possible reason.

I will begin by noting there is talk of spending €500 million on the fitting of water meters in approximately 2 million houses. This sum of €500 million could be used much more effectively to fix other problems and the savings in respect of conserving water would be much more dramatic. I also wish to clarify that this basically is another stealth tax. We have been running campaigns against stealth taxes for quite a while and obviously we have every intention of running a campaign against this stealth tax. As one often does in this country, one compares oneself with the neighbouring island with regard to water usage and water figures. In Britain, the reports generally pertain to England and Wales where there has been metering and charging for water for a quite a long time. In my submission, I have provided the consumption figure in litres per head per day and then have provided the figure for the greater Dublin area in litres per head per day, as well as providing details of the reference reports and so on. Members should note the figures are very similar and, in reality, are within a couple of percentage points of each other. In Britain, where there already is charging and in Ireland where there is not, the usage is virtually the same. I do not suggest that metering will have no effect. We genuinely examined the numbers to ascertain the effect metering would have and read some of the reports from England and so on. We suggest that metering would have the effect of saving 6% of water. While this amount is not to be sneezed at, it comprises 6% of domestic water usage or in other words, it is 6% of 16%, which is just under 1% of total water use. This is what one is likely to save, were one to introduce metering nationwide. I am confident that were I to return before this joint committee in 20 years' time, these numbers would stand up. One should be clear about this, lest anyone thinks the water problem in Ireland will be fixed through metering, as it will do nothing of the sort.

The figure just supplied by Dr. Seán Healy is correct, as the rate of leakage in the country is 36%. The presentation contains a graph that is derived from a recent report and in the greater Dublin area, which includes counties Wicklow, Kildare and Meath, the figure is 30%. The rate of leakage in the rest of the country is approximately 43% to 44% and is as high as 58% in County Roscommon. The primary issue in the Irish water system is leakage. Before the commencement of the leakage programme in the Dublin area in 1996, the leakage level there was the same as it is now elsewhere. In the years since then, the authorities in Dublin have managed to reduce the figure to 30%. The reduction has been from 43% down to 30% or, in other words, an amount virtually equivalent to the total domestic usage has been saved by going after the leakage problem. Moreover, they are not finished yet. The world-class standard for leakages is 16% but members must bear in mind that in some parts of the world, water is extremely valuable and is extremely expensive to generate. Another report suggests that for Ireland, going after any leakage target better than 20% and 25% in urban and rural areas, respectively, would be considered to be uneconomical. Even if one accepts these relatively modest targets, we still have a hell of a distance to go. There is virtually a 20% gap between the current leakage outside Dublin and this target figure. This is where the problem is and is where the resources really should be concentrated.

The presentation goes on to give concrete examples. I have provided three examples, the first of which spells out what the actual effect of the leakage programmes has been. It is the actual effect and not simply what I say. It refers to what actually has been reported and what has been proven. When one compares the Irish figures with the United Kingdom figures and if one accepts that metering might save 16%, were one to fix leaks and bring the rate down to the modest target of 20% and 25% leakage in urban and rural areas, respectively, one would achieve 24 times the effect of metering. This is the scale of the difference. Much investment would be required for this and nationally, the leakage programme for the three years between 1997 and 1999 cost €280 million. Consequently, the €500 million that has been talked about in respect of metering would run that programme for six years. This programme is now generally concentrated outside the Dublin area, with the exception of the recent announcement concerning the Vartry tunnel project. This is a tunnel in the Wicklow Mountains that has been there since the 1860s and which, as everyone in the business is aware, has a hell of a leak in it. Otherwise, the main focus of the project is outside the Dublin area. Our suggestion is this programme is what the money should be used for. In recent years, some very good work has been done in counties Wexford and Limerick, the latter in particular, and they have shown the way. I spoke to the senior engineer in County Limerick last week to make sure I had all the facts straight and that local authority has got its wastage down to 30%. However, County Roscommon still has rates of wastage that are approximately twice as high. Parts of the country need to take the lead shown by other areas in this regard but they need money as all this costs money. Rather than using up €500 million to install meters everywhere, it should be invested into these programmes.

The second example I have provided also would not be common knowledge but I have checked with a number of councils and this is work that goes on quietly in the background all the time.

As already stated, I was a member of South Dublin County Council for five years and I am, therefore, aware of what happens in its area of remit. The latter's leakage unit comprises only four people. These individuals are specially trained and they go out on Thursday nights when it is very quiet and when people would not be using much water. They remove the covers from the water valves and can quickly discover whether there is much water being used in a particular area. They spend the remainder of the week knocking on people's doors to try to discover where the water is going. That is the level of detail into which South Dublin County Council goes in respect of this matter. The local authority in Limerick operates in a similar manner.

These are existing units which are carrying out the type of work to which I refer. Any leaks which can be found by using a meter, the individuals to whom I refer can also find. The staff in South Dublin County Council informed me that 300 leaks have been recorded in the latter's area of remit. However, only 19 notifications have been issued under the Act. If it is possible to identify the fact that there is a leak at a domestic premises, it is possible to follow up on it under the legislation to which I refer. To be honest, however, it appears this legislation is not being used. When I spoke to the engineer in Limerick last week, he stated that once someone is informed that a leak exists he or she has it fixed and that, in general, there is no need to resort to using the provisions of the Act. This underlines the point that people are quite conscious of the need to conserve water and are not inclined to waste it.

The third example I provided relates to the question of flushing toilets, the waste of water to which this gives rise, etc. If members wish to raise any other matters, I can easily find the relevant figures in respect of them. It is good to compare the position between Denmark, where there has been a programme in place in respect of toilets since the early 1990s, and England, where there is no such programme. The gap between the two is the equivalent of 12% of all the water used. In the context of that one programme alone, it would be possible to save twice the amount of water that would be saved through the use of meters.

There is a great deal which can be done in respect of water wastage. It must be made clear, however, that metering is not a panacea and that it will not provide an answer in respect of wastage. We are seeking to ensure there will be no confusion and that when the debate inevitably begins, people will be aware that metering is really a revenue-collecting exercise and not much else. I will leave it at that. There is quite an amount of detail in the report and I am sure members will wish to ask questions about it.

I thank Mr. Murphy and Dr. Healy. Before calling on members to contribute, I wish to point out that it is more effective to ask the witnesses questions rather than make Second Stage speeches before eventually posing such questions.

Is it fair to state that a summary of Dr. Healy's presentation would be that the principle of payment is actually agreed and that he is mainly concerned with the poverty implications? Dr. Healy stated that average household consumption is 150 litres of water per day. How was this figure arrived at and how can he determine it as being a threshold allowance?

Mr. Murphy cited the Danish example. I am of the view that the information he provided in this regard is correct. Is it also correct to state that the Danes have a dual metering system whereby the water which flows into houses and that which flows out are both measured? Is it not the case that the Danes charge on the basis of both consumption and waste? How does Mr. Murphy propose that the cost of piping water into people's houses should be met if it is not to be done through a billing system? How would he encourage citizens to conserve water if there is no connection between consumption and payment?

Dr. Seán Healy

We are prepared to accept that people should pay for water supplies in some way. However, quite a number of ring-fencing issues arise. The poverty implication for those on low incomes is a critical issue, but it is not the only one. There is also an issue with regard to whether metering would become a revenue-raising mechanism for the Government. We do not believe it should become such a mechanism. The money collected through whatever mechanism is put in place should pay for water and nothing else. That is our view. It should not be the case that the Government could use the said mechanism to collect additional moneys for the purposes of balancing the budget or whatever. The amount charged in such circumstances would constitute an indirect tax and this would not be acceptable to us.

In the broader context we would say yes, in principle, to water charges. However, those who are unemployed should not be charged and households which are operating close to or just above the poverty line should pay a lower amount. There should still be a free allowance but there also should be a lower charge for those to whom I refer. The charge should increase only as these people's incomes increase. It is important that, in the main, those who should be hit by the imposition of water charges are people who are in the top half of the income distribution index and not their counterparts in the bottom half.

I do not have the exact reference for the average consumption figure of 150 litres per day. However, it comes from research carried out by Comhar, the Sustainable Development Council. That body is being closed down two weeks from now. However, the work it has done will remain available. It has carried out a great deal of research in respect of water and related matters.

I asked about the figure of 150 litres because at the end of this process the committee will compile a report. It would be useful to us if the empirical evidence on which the figure is based could be provided to us.

Dr. Seán Healy

I can collate Comhar's research on water and supply it to the committee. I have been a member of the council of that body for quite a number of years. I do not possess any specialist expertise in respect of water. However, due to the fact that I am a member of the council I have dealt with water, biodiversity, and many other issues on which I am not an expert. All of these matters related to the work Comhar was doing. I will obtain the material on water and make it available to the committee in the next couple of days.

Mr. Mick Murphy

I will take the Chairman's questions in reverse order. The first relates to how we might encourage people to conserve water. The research clearly indicates that, by and large, water use is lifestyle driven. By that I mean it is driven by people's standard of living as opposed to almost anything else. The graphs I provided in respect of Denmark and Britain show that the outdoor use of water is minuscule. There is a notion that people use massive amounts of water in their gardens, to wash their cars, etc. That is not the case. The vast bulk of water people use in their homes relates to running dishwashers and washing machines, taking baths and showers, etc. The amount used is very much based on people's standard of living. This is why the figures for Ireland and Britain are so similar. There is not a huge amount of water wasted in this country. Obviously, there is some wastage but the amount is quite small. There is a notion that some big prize can be attained in respect of reducing wastage but the research indicates that such a prize does not exist.

Planners across Europe operate on the basis that water usage is increasing rather than decreasing. This is due to people's lifestyles and all the extra equipment in their homes. My daughters use a huge amount of water because they take showers all the time. This is a cultural issue which does not have that much to do with people wasting water.

The Chairman also inquired as to how the cost of water should be borne. The short answer is that it should continue to be borne as it is at present, namely, out of the taxes we pay. We all pay taxes and I for one would like to get something fairly tangible - such as my water supply - back in return. We are of the view that there should be no change to the current situation.

The Chairman referred to the use of a dual metering system in Denmark. I do not know for certain if there is such a system. I have not read a great deal about the position in that country. I am aware, from the experience with industry, that such a system is not as straightforward as it sounds. In other words, it is easy to meter clean water into a house, but one can use one's imagination regarding how one would meter what comes back out. It is not straightforward and generally not done, certainly in a domestic environment.

I can confirm that they do.

I have a number of questions for the representatives of Social Justice Ireland. On means testing, have they thought about the level of administration required because it appears a large number of households would have to be means tested to remove them from the system and that there would be a cost in that regard? A comment made to us on a number of occasions is that the more people would be excluded the more expensive it would become for those included and that there would be people just above that threshold. I accept that the representatives are talking about a tapered arrangement, but people above the threshold would pay substantially more. They would be pushed - certainly the working poor - further into poverty and impacted upon by the cost of water.

On the ring-fencing of the tax revenue raised, it is obvious that there is a huge amount of work to be done in ramping up the water supply system. The local authorities incrementally collect development contributions and so on and could argue that they are ring-fenced, but at the same time projects are being diverted, the funding for which would otherwise come from the Exchequer. It concerns me that there is an easy way to slip out of that one, so to speak.

On the analysis Mr. Murphy has made which is useful, the cost of heating water strikes me as one issue that will lead to a reduction in the level of wastage, particularly if the hot water is used within the household for washing and so on because the higher the cost to heat water the less likely it is one will waste it. It has a bearing on the way people use water and very much depends on climate conditions in terms of outdoor use. Five minutes after having two weeks of sunshine a hose pipe ban is imposed. It does not take much to get to that point. In that regard, people are reasonably observant when asked to be so. I agree with Mr. Murphy that this is not as big an issue as others, but it would be useful to know if it is possible to have an analysis made of the breakdown between hot and cold water used in a household. Most manufacturers and householders now tend to opt for appliances that allow for more sustainable water use.

Dr. Seán Healy

On means testing, we have thought seriously about the issue at length and tried to work our way to a point where we could envisage a system that was not overly bureaucratic. It comes down to the composition of the household and how it can have access to the water supply to which it is entitled and not be charged for it. The State alreadys knows if its members are on social welfare payments, while the Revenue Commissioners already know if there is a taxed income going into it, but what the Revenue Commissioners do not know is the number of children. However, this should be easy to find out in that every child has an PPS number. We could have a simple system in place, whereby the household would claim for children with PPS numbers. We could then have a simple computer programme to ensure the same children are not claimed for in two households. Beyond this, the matter should be relatively straightforward.

The Revenue Commissioners have access to information on people's incomes from paid employment and the taxes they are paying. In that context, there is broad knowledge already available in the system and it should not be beyond the capacity of people to dramatically reduce any bureaucracy in the system which should be a relatively simple task, if they are serious about doing so. We would be interested in discussing how way that might be done.

We had a bad experience with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection in terms of their failure to integrate the tax and welfare systems, an issue we have promoted for more than 20 years, but it seems to be beyond the capacity of the two organisations to integrate them. It would not be rocket science, but there appears to be an issue about whether they want to do it. If people were serious about it, it would be doable; therefore, there would not be a huge amount of bureaucracy involved. On whether it would be more expensive for those included, it would be.

In terms of having a charge for water generally, if there are 1 million households, the cost is divided by 1 million. That is the distribution level. If it was decided that a certain proportion would not pay anything, it is obvious the others would pay more, but I maintain that it would be those in the top half of the income distribution category who would end up paying. There would be no danger that we have proposed would impact on the working poor in any way. The threshold to be applied should be a long way above that level before any measure kicked in.

It must be remembered that the percentage of people at risk of poverty is 15.8%. Of the households within this category, four out of ten are headed by a person with a job. There are people who are only slightly above the poverty level and we strongly recommend that there be a substantial clearance above the liability level, other than in circumstances where people are wasting water, which is a different issue.

On the idea that a basic allowance that would be more than sufficient for everybody, that would be doable. We would not have a major problem with those in the top half of the income distribution category having to pay a little more in tax.

The third issue the Deputy raised concerns the danger that the local authorities or whoever would be running the water system would ramp up the cost involved by imposing additional charges. That would always be a danger, but it should not be beyond the capacity of local councillors-----

And public representatives.

Dr. Seán Healy

-----and public representatives - we have a good example here - to ensure a distinction would be made in that regard and to keep an eye on the public servants involved to ensure they would not have a huge capital programme covering many other items under the water programme. We have an assumption with regard to the honesty of the players, and there is also an assumption about local authorities in that context. Several people around here, including the Deputy, have plenty of experience of local authorities. I bow to her greater experience of local authorities, but it seems to me that local councillors should have a good capacity for monitoring the activities of local authorities to ensure they do not do that. I do not have ideas about how it should be done. I would expect the councillors to be able to do it.

Mr. Mick Murphy

On the point made about hot water, the cost of heating water and on conserving water, it is interesting to note that it has a great deal to do with having the money to buy the more energy efficient appliances. The people who do not have money obviously cannot afford to go there. There is solar and other equipment, although there is not much that is yet viable. In sunnier countries there are all sorts of things available. In my career, I have noted vast amounts of waste energy in industry. An example would the ESB power station down the road, which dumps vast amounts of hot water into the Liffey. In Iceland, the system is planned so that the industry is linked to the local housing estates and the surplus energy is used to heat the houses. People would be amazed at the amount of wasted energy which cannot be reused on the factory site. That is a different discussion to the water issue. We can come back and talk about that.

I thank both delegations for their informative presentations. Can they explain the shadow national accounts in a little bit more detail? Their general recommendations referred to subsidies for households to encourage the purchase of water efficient appliances. Is water harvesting as a runner for domestic water supply? The leisure centre in my town is fitting a water harvesting system that some argue should have been put in three years ago when we were building it. It has a big roof and an economy of scale. Will this system be a runner in terms of the domestic water supply?

I am interested in the argument about water usage in England, Scotland and Wales, where there is metering which shows roughly the same usage. I am sure the delegates can stand over that information, and I find it interesting. Do the usage statistics include leakage from the mains and general leakage, or are they based only on what is metered which would include leaks within the house? Water pipes put in under the floors in the hallway for instance could develop a leak and as far as I know some councils do not have leak detection crews. Councils should have such crews but I know of at least one council that does not have one. Can the delegates detail the legislation that deals with domestic leaks?

My last question relates to the ability of local authorities or Irish Water to turn off water. The last time we had to deal with this, people had to show up with spanners, kango hammers and so on. Based on delegates' research, are there other methods of turning off water centrally, such as at a control centre? Can it be done electronically?

Mr. Mick Murphy

There are many interesting questions here. Water harvesting is not as simple as it sounds. Much of my career was in soft drinks, and we talked about water harvesting, but what happens if a mouse or a dead crow gets into the water? There is a limited use for harvested water domestically. It can probably only be used to flush toilets. In that sense, one would end up with much more water than needed for the one thing for which it could be used. Water harvesting is easier in a big organisation where one can use all the water. While water harvesting is known to be used for some houses, we get into issues of water treatment and so on, so it is not as simple as it first sounds. Given all the rain we get, we have plenty of water, but it is what we can do with that water is where we are limited.

The figures on the UK and Ireland are written clearly. Reference 1 in my presentation is actually an Internet link to page 10 and reference 2 is a link to page 21, so members can pull up a laptop and check those figures themselves within five minutes. They are from reputable reports. It takes into account the water going into the house and not leaks in the mains and so on. The Irish figures come from the EPA, while the English figures come from many different meter readings around the country. There are many houses in Ireland that have meters and that is how similar information is collected in Ireland. If we have a couple of hundred meters and they are averaged out, we will end up with much the same figure.

The legislation dealing with leaks is mentioned in example No. 2 of the presentation. I thought people would like to know that.

It is the Water Services Act 2007.

Mr. Mick Murphy

That is correct and it shows the relevant sections as well.

I know that South Dublin County Council and Limerick County Council have leak detection units. From talking to the people involved, there is no rocket science involved. It is very straightforward technology and is based on sound equipment. They can hear exactly what is going on in the system. In the middle of the night, for instance, there should not be any taps running inside a house, so the crews can open the manholes, check the valves and check for sounds. If they hear water running, the next day they will go back to the house and ask why the water has been running. They can cover a huge amount of ground doing this and they find all the big leaks that way. Various techniques are used.

A question was asked about valving off. It is not so difficult in the cities, as many valves are close together. From talking to people in Limerick, I know that the group schemes cannot be turned off. They end up repairing the leaks on the group schemes because nobody else will, but there are issues with turning those off. I am from Tipperary originally and my family is on a group scheme where there were fierce leaks last year. They were left like that for ages because no one could turn them off. I understand the Deputy's point there. It is not difficult in technological terms to close valves. A person can use his mobile phone to close the valve. Bulmers in Clonmel use such a system. It is not hard to do that.

To the engineers out in the field, domestic metering is the least of our worries. There are much bigger fish to fry around the country than that. District metering, automatic valves and so on with regard to the big system, on the mains, is where we are still at in many parts of the country, not to mind to getting down to leaks in particular houses.

Dr. Seán Healy

Our current national accounts are built, since the Second World War, on gross domestic product. The issue about GDP is that it is an extraordinarily crude measure. If one sought any kind of ideal measure of whether one was making progress, one would not start from there. The reason it was adopted in the 1940s was that there were sets of statistics available for most of the world's major countries measuring GDP. All one has to do is look at what GDP counts and one will find some rather interesting problematic issues. For example, one could eventually use up a natural resource completely; it would never appear as a cost in gross domestic product terms, but then one day it would all be gone. On the other hand, one could expand one's GDP by, for example, doing a huge clean-up after environmental damage. One could cause an almighty oil spill across half of the west that would cost millions to clean up and it would all be added to GDP and seen as progress.

Another example we often us relates to the care of children. While children are cared for at home, they do not show up in the GDP figures, but if they have to be placed in care or wind up in prison, they will cost a fortune and all of this money is added to the GDP figures. One is growing one's GDP by having children in care or prison or having to clean up after major environmental disasters. There is obviously something wrong with this. It is crazy. Much work has been done in this regard and the proposal is that one should develop shadow or satellite national accounts. The idea is that one would continue to count GDP but one would put in place a second system to subtract when one uses a declining national resource. Bogs are an obvious example.

Dr. Healy should not get into that issue.

Dr. Seán Healy

I will not. The resource is declining. If it is declining during the years, there should be a minus figure associated with it because it is a natural resource and it will continue to decline through use. On the other side, a value should be given to unpaid work. Massive amounts of unpaid work are done. The problem is that when we do not count it, we do not take it into consideration in the decisions we make and then-----

Dr. Healy should return to the subject in hand.

Dr. Sean Healy

This is relevant because what happens in that context is that when one does not count it, one does not watch out for it when things go wrong. When such issues hit us suddenly because we have to pay for them, it presents a huge problem because we do not have the resource available for free subsequently. In the context of the issue with which we are dealing, having shadow or satellite national accounts would raise questions about an assumption made to the effect that water and clean air are free. They are not because someone has to pay somewhere, even if they are not being paid for in cash. If the air is polluted, there is a cost to society and the environment. Likewise, there is a cost if one is using water. One might not pay anything for it in cash in the same way as one might not pay for damaging the environment but one should include a minus figure in the national satellite accounts because that would give one a picture of what was actually happening. Therefore, there is a connection with what the committee is doing. When one counts everything, one sees their value and one then decides whether they should be paid for. At least their value would be registered, whereas the value of a resource such as water is not registered unless it is being paid for.

Water is being paid for on community schemes in rural areas. It is also being paid for by county councils which generate revenue. If there was a shortage of water, one could decide whether taxpayers should pay for it. That is not the issue in that context but by recording the cost, one would give the resource a value. One might then decide to pay for it from general taxation receipts, but at least one would have a picture of its cost. If a resource is being run down, one is alerted to it long before it reaches the point where things fall apart.

In a previous committee presentation a cost was put on water, depending on which local authority was in charge, of between €2 and €3 per cu. m. The point Dr. Healy is making is that the cost is not recorded in the ledger.

Dr. Seán Healy

That is right.

I thank Dr. Healy for his presentation. Am I correct in understanding that on page 8 of the presentation he is recommending that not everyone would have a free allocation? Will I ask more than one question or would Dr. Healy prefer to take one at a time?

Dr. Seán Healy

I have no problem with the Deputy asking a few questions at a time.

I am an urban Deputy. Through information received by the committee we have discovered clearly the number who pay for water which is normally forgotten in these presentations. In many cases, they are the working poor and people on social welfare payments. Is Dr. Healy aware of how they are treated currently? I have seen bills from Galway for approximately €3,000 a year for water. In such cases the working poor are under severe pressure to meet such bills.

I agree with what Dr. Healy said about ring-fencing the income received in water charges; it should be invested in the provision of water. What has happened in the Dublin region is that there has been no great investment because the pipes are underground and one only has to turn on the tap. No great investment has been made and no great value is placed on water. It is only when one turns on the tap and no water comes out, as happened recently, that it becomes a significant issue. Many in the category of the working poor have said to me that I should guarantee that water will come out of the tap when one turns it one, although they do not suffer the effects. Should revenue from water and waste charges be ring-fenced?

On page 10 of the submission Dr. Healy suggests no charges can be levied until the infrastructure is brought up to standard. One of the problems is one has to secure the revenue needed to make the investment. Water meters may provide a revenue stream in order to borrow to improve the service. A total of 20% is about the best we will get in a gravity-fed scheme. Would the revenue referred to in the submission cover this?

Mr. Murphy referred to lifestyle choices in terms of increased water usage. What mechanisms would he consider in dampening down such lifestyle choices? When I measured the water used in the dishwasher, I decided to stop using it and went back to the old way of washing dishes in the sink, as having researched the issue I discovered there was a substantial saving to be made. The children took part in the assessment, but they did not agree with my proposal.

Significant investment is required in the provision of water and creating headroom for its provision. The wastepipe system in urban and rural areas right also requires major investment. In the Dublin region the system dates back to the 18th century. Sewage was evident in the recent floods. Does Mr. Murphy suggest that all of the investment should be made from general taxation receipts? If that is the case, what level of tax increase does he propose would be required and to what sections of society should the increase apply?

Dr. Seán Healy

Everyone has a free amount in our proposal but not everyone would get the full amount. I am looking again at the split between the better-off half and the other half. At the bottom end we are saying people on welfare, the working poor, and anyone remotely close to being in poverty should get 160 litres of water per person per day. The allocation should be adjusted accordingly, as suggested. When it moves up the line the basic amount could be also reduced and there would be a certain charge for the balance. The charge should not be at a relatively high rate until such time as people start wasting water.

It is true that many people are already paying for water. Many others are on rural water schemes. I do not know whether there is a system currently in place to protect the working poor in those situations. There is a requirement that there should be such a system in any new dispensation on foot of our recommendations. The system would be fairer in that context.

We would not mix waste and water together - not even waste water. We would separate them. We are fully aware of the challenges, in particular in the Dublin area, but across the country generally, in terms of infrastructure. The challenge in that regard is not just confined to water, for example, there are several other areas. We have made proposals in our budget submission that the Government should start the process of developing some kind of a separate methodology for funding infrastructural development that would also involve serious job creation initiatives. We came up with ideas about how that could be financed. An example would be that if one had a standard rate for contributions to private pensions one would get €700 million. That is only one example. There are, literally, billions of euro currently being spent each year in what are referred to as tax expenditures. They are tax breaks that benefit only the better off. The Commission on Taxation identified 131 of them between ordinary ones and property-related ones. Some of the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation have been implemented but many of its proposals have not been implemented. There are still, literally, billions of euro being lost through tax breaks. That is another source of financing for infrastructure, which in turn has the capacity to create jobs. That is absolutely critical if we are ever to get out of this mess.

There is a third area that would be worth considering. We have a 12.5% corporation tax. Our view has been for some time that there should be a levy for a number of years on corporate profits, equivalent to 2.5%. The difference between a levy and just increasing the tax rate is that the levy would go away when the country would get out of the mess. Our view is that the corporate sector should make a contribution in this context just like everyone else, in particular as the main offenders were part of the corporate sector. I refer to banks and financial institutions. A 2.5% levy would be a move in the right direction. However, that is not all. We would also argue that when one considers the 12.5% tax rate that is applied, some rather strange things are going on. Companies are declaring 7% of their total profits paid in tax. If the rate is 12.5% how are they getting away with that? They are obviously getting substantial tax breaks. Recent reports indicated that the average tax paid on profits by certain companies was approximately 4%. We became aware recently of an interesting provision in the Finance Act 2009. It basically says that one could get a tax credit for investment in research and development, which is a very good idea, except if one had no tax liability to claim back the tax credit that was on offer, one could get it as a payment. The situation in law is that not alone does a company pay no tax but we make a contribution to it. I refer to companies that are profitable. That seems a strange measure in the extreme.

In terms of the provision of infrastructure, we feel the Government should start to examine such areas and consider the possibility of increasing the resources available from them to fund the required infrastructure, which is labour intensive and therefore has much job creation potential. One final point in favour of that is that this country's total tax take is one of the lowest in the European Union. To be clear, we are talking about all taxes, all social insurance and all local charges. Countries do these things differently but when one puts the taxes all together it amounts to everything that is being paid to the State and when one compares the level across the countries of the European Union only three or four countries - all of them are at the eastern end of the Union such as Bulgaria, Slovakia and such countries - take a lower percentage of their GDP in that total tax manner.

I do not wish to be misrepresented by anyone saying I am in favour of increasing income tax, because I am not, but I would like to see many of the income tax breaks removed. This country's total tax take as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in the European Union and it seems there is plenty of scope for pursuing the suggestions I have made to increase the tax take, which would be then available for infrastructural development. That would generate jobs, which would pay the tax and enable the Government to start balancing the books and not have to cut services as its methodology.

I have other views on meeting the requirements of the banks but that is for another day. I am speaking in the context of infrastructural provision and staying within the Government's parameters of reducing its borrowings

In that context Dr. Healy is in favour of ring-fencing income for water but not for waste. Are they not interconnected in the sense that what comes in must go out?

Dr. Seán Healy

An argument could be made in that regard but I would be much happier for the Government to invest in waste treatment in a way that is positive in terms of developing infrastructure and creating jobs. That is what I seek. There are other ways of funding infrastructure, which we in Social Justice Ireland have been proposing for some time, based on the understanding of the clear facts that this country has one of the lowest total tax takes in the western world and certainly one of the lowest in the European Union. Therefore, we should be looking at ways of increasing our total tax take so that it provides the kind of resourcing that could be invested in developing infrastructure. That is the standard process most countries have followed and we should also do that.

Mr. Mick Murphy

On the question of what could be done to dampen down lifestyle choices, if we go back to the figure that one third of all potable water generated by the local authorities is lost - one sixth of all that water is for domestic use - twice as much is lost as is used for domestic purposes. I would focus on this rather than trying to tell Lisa in my house that we were getting rid of the dishwasher which we only purchased a few years ago because I know what the answer would be. When it comes to how long the two girls spend in the shower, to be honest, I would not even bring up the matter for discussion in the house. There would not be much point in doing so because the numbers explain completely what we should focus on. As I said, the general trend is upwards, but the rise in use is gradual and it is being compensated for by the use of new appliances which are more efficient in using water. Therefore, the amount of water used is settling at a figure, but I do not think that is the main item on which we should focus; there are much bigger fish to fry. It is a little like what I often come across in industry - one might walk in and the lights are turned off in the corridor and somebody thinks he or she is doing great in saving energy, yet there is an incinerator at the back with 1,000 kW of power being lost up the stack and nobody is doing anything about this. I guess the answer is that we should focus on the big problem. That is what we should concentrate on until we get the figures down.

As regards to from where the investment should come, we could spend all day discussing this issue. In brief, however, water is one of the items left in the investment programme. I have mentioned that the Vartry tunnel was recently announced as a major project. In other words, many of the water projects proposed are no-brainers. In every sense of the word, they save costs quickly once completed. Four county councils which have workers going around to check for leaks save a multiple of their costs every year. Much of the work involved is cost neutral. If that answer was not good enough, the Socialist Party and the ULA have a programme on the matter.

I agree with Dr. Healy on his point that if one carries the graduated tax upwards, billions can be obtained in that way. If the committee wants to discuss that issue, we can do so. I can e-mail it some documents I prepared on the subject recently.

It was interesting to hear Dr. Healy speak about the legislation. Does he have any statistical information on the number of companies which benefited from the Finance Act 2009? I would welcome his comments on that issue.

Having a standard charge or a metering charge is a topical issue, particularly in rural areas in which people have an option. As Dr. Healy is probably aware, more and more people in rural areas are reverting to boring their own deep wells, particularly businesses and members of the farming community. This will make the provision of a quality water supply more expensive for local authorities, as there would be a fear standards could fall. A genuine fear is that the metering system could be increased at the stroke of a pen.

My colleague, Deputy Stanley, referred to the greater harvesting of rainwater, which we should examine, particularly for agricultural purposes. We should encourage such harvesting, particularly for cleaning farmyards, to lessen the demand for a clean water supply for domestic use.

Mr. Murphy referred to the fact that one could test water supplies during certain night-time periods. However, this is impossible to do in rural areas because animals are housed in slatted houses. The same supply of water is used as is used during the day. How would Mr. Murphy get around this problem?

A waiver scheme would be difficult to operate, as one would have to limit usage because people allow taps to run in yards and gardens. One must guard against this happening, as many were badly caught during last year's freeze. Owing to what happened during the Celtic tiger years, large numbers are commuting to Dublin from places as far away as Longford, Mullingar and Tullamore. They leave at 6 a.m. and arrive home in the dark. They are not there during daylight hours to inspect water supplies in gardens. This will pose problems later.

Dr. Seán Healy

The first question concerned the number of companies benefiting from the loophole in the Finance Act 2009, which I mentioned, to which I do not know the answer, for two reasons, one of which I only discovered recently. Despite all the work we do on Finance Acts and budgets, the capacity to hide things within legislation is massive. I suspect that some Deputies and Senators are aware of this happening during the years, but we only became aware of it recently. We intend to pursue the matter because it is another example of a tax break or a methodology that tells us something. If there was no company paying tax, that provision would not have been included in the Act. That is our starting premise. I am sure there are officials in the Department of Finance who know from the Revenue Commissioners whether that provision was required. The only reason for including it in the Act was that businesses would pay no tax. Some businesses which were likely to benefit wound up not benefiting to the whole value of the tax break because they did not have enough tax liabilities. It seems the logic is that there are companies paying no tax. Therefore, I would be very interested in discovering if that is the case. I suspect the committee might be in a better position to access that information. If it receives it, I would be delighted to see it. We have been arguing about these matters for a while.

The standard charge issue was raised, but I take it that the Deputy was talking about having a flat charge. We would be very negative when it comes to the idea of having a flat charge because it would not discriminate in terms of people's capacity to pay. It would mean that those at the very bottom or just above it - wherever one decided to set the boundary - would have to pay the same amount as millionaires. That would not be the best way to go, by a long way. Our idea is to try to get in place a system that would not be too complicated. In that way, those who are better off would pay more and, as a result, we would wind up with a funded water supply system. People at the bottom would not end up having to pay what would, in effect, be an onerous charge.

As I said, more and more people are digging their own deep wells. They have the scope and the land to do so. They will be leaving the system, although I know there are costs associated with the maintenance of deep well pumps.

Dr. Seán Healy

Is it not the case that the number would be relatively limited? Is it true that they would not be subject to the charge?

They would not be subject to it, no.

Dr. Seán Healy

There is an argument that they are using a resource of the country, although it is not actually part of the water supply provided by a local authority. This brings us back to the issue of satellite accounts about which I spoke. People are using a natural resource, although they are putting infrastructure in place to access their own supply.

And at their own cost.

Dr. Seán Healy

That is true. However, they are using part of the country's natural resources. In that context, there should be some charge. It would obviously have to be done on a basis other than the total-----

One would then be going down a legal route.

Dr. Seán Healy

One could see such a situation emerging.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

I would bow to the knowledge of Mr. Mick Murphy regarding the digging of wells but I worked in Africa for a number of years. The digging of wells and the depths they could go was a significant issue, as some people were draining the water from others; for example, a business could be set up and a whole village could be destroyed because it drains all the water. I am not an engineer and do not know enough about the topic. There must be some legal provision regulating depths to which people can drill. Mr. Murphy might have more to say on that.

Dr. Seán Healy

There is our experience in an African context. At the border between Nigeria and Chad, there used to be a large lake, which was almost an internal freshwater sea. It is practically all gone. That has happened within three or four decades because the water is being used for different production purposes, and over a period, the natural resource was completely used up and it is not available for people who are in dire trouble. There is a cost to using a natural resource as it is not endless or inexhaustible. It is not free in that sense.

People in the midlands have had this experience also with the development of Bord na Móna over the years, which dried up a number of wells in parts of rural Ireland.

Mr. Mick Murphy

The use of wells for domestic use is really a backward step. In general, it is not even viable because it does not make much sense by the time the water is pumped and treated. It makes a certain amount of sense on a big farm where the water does not have to be treated and it is fed straight to cattle troughs. I was the chief engineer of the biggest soft drinks plant in the country for 11 years and we had a bore hole which had an 8,000 gallon per hour supply in 1991. It was pumped 24 hours a day, seven days a week and it is still going. Approximately two years ago we did an analysis and with the recent cost of electricity and dumping reject waters, which comes through cleaning up the water and reverse osmosis, it was not saving money at all between the jigs and reels. Even those with a fantastic supply, by the time it was treated to the standard required, it was not viable.

In general, the issue does not arise in this country. We have much water coming from the sky all the time and there is no reason everybody cannot be on the public supply, especially as we have group water schemes, etc. That should be encouraged. Deputy Bannon asked how leaks are detected in the countryside. I spoke to the chief engineer in Limerick last week for a good while on the phone and that county has 10,000 industrial customers, including farms, as well as 40,000 domestic customers. It is those customers we are talking about. It is not even a question that there should be no flow. As a person turns on a tap, the sound changes as it is turned; everybody knows that. The people involved are trained and certified, having done courses etc. They know by the sound whether the problem is a dripping tap or an enormous leak. They can tell the difference, record the problem and do something about it. It is being done in Limerick and so it can be done all over the country. I understand what people are saying. Farms are dealt with in a different manner as they are metered and classed as industrial. That would be a different discussion as we are dealing with domestic supply.

I thank the delegation for the presentation and it is probably the first time I do not completely agree with the organisation with which Dr. Healy is connected. I have great time for him and it is a pity some of his colleagues were not running the country. In a way it seems like the witnesses are approaching this from the same angle, although Dr. Healy is talking about a longer term in getting the infrastructure fixed before putting in water meters.

I have changed my position on this. My original position would be to spend €500 million on meters and save much money but having listened to Mr. Murphy and a few others, it seems as if there are bigger priorities. If there is €500 million or €1 billion available, as some are suggesting, it appears we should, without doubt, spend it on those priorities first. There is the idea of the polluter paying, and I was evangelical about that concept at one stage. That is not the case anymore as a result of the process of waste coming from a house. I would have been a big fan of the theory that if people are charged, they would cut down on the amount of waste produced but in practice, the polluter is not necessarily paying. Everybody ends up paying and many people who cannot afford to pay, as well as those who can, will save money by dumping illegally. With those who cannot afford to pay, they are left in an awkward position because they do not want to pollute but in some cases they are left with absolutely no choice.

I must push the Deputy towards questioning the witnesses.

It is nice to be treated equally.

Exactly.

Is Dr. Healy suggesting it will be years before we do what he suggests by putting in meters and means testing? It will be years before we fix this mess. The positive aspect of meters is that it would be easier to pinpoint a leak but I am now getting information that if there were district meters, the same goal could be achieved. Is that correct?

If money is being sought to fix pipes, every repair will bring about a saving. I am sure we could work out how to put that back into the system to eventually fix the lot. The Chairman might excuse this statement but I have opinions too.

Mr. Mick Murphy

The only question there for me is on district metering. The methods of finding leaks are pretty straightforward and it is not hard to find them. The much bigger problem is how to fix the leaks and getting somebody to do it. If a pipe is leaking in Dublin city centre, it is not simple to do something about it. I will use the example of Limerick and it is the same with south Dublin. Water metering is an old and very precise technology; it is not hard to implement and it is one of the easiest resources to meter. In the case of Limerick the county would be broken into 35 parts and each would be metered. All of those parts should add up to the main supply, which generally happens, and the officials would know the make-up of each component. Some might involve agriculture, which is metered anyway, so it would be taken from the district metering. The domestic supply can be taken as well so officials can quickly work out if a district is way out of kilter because of a big leak. That is how people know where to start looking in the first instance before even getting down to domestic leaks. Using district metering the big leaks can be located in the system, and that has been the process in Dublin since the mid-1990s. That is why roadworks are seen around the place now and again.

Until recently in Dublin there were some medieval wooden pipes and they have been replaced in time. There is a way of going about this process, and in engineering terms it is not difficult. It is almost entirely dependent on resources. During the boom this would not have been a top priority, although it was in Dublin because of a shortage of water. There is now a debate on where Dublin will get water if the city becomes much bigger. The problem has been fixed in the past 15 years through leak repair. There was a 42.3% leak rate and that is down to 30%. Despite all the development in Dublin in the past 15 years there is no real water crisis, although there has been at certain times.

Dr. Seán Healy

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan is correct in his interpretation of the timeframe. I will come back to that but the Deputy mentioned another issue. Our basic point is that the system should pay its way. It is interesting that there may well be a possibility that the system could pay its way without having charges. If that were possible then it would be a perfectly acceptable approach from our perspective. In that context one is talking about the savings coming from suggestions that have been made already at the meeting or in other contexts as well. In terms of making recommendations, I would look at how we could save money in a variety of ways from initiatives within the infrastructural area to see what could be done in that context and what money could be saved in that way.

The infrastructure must be put in place in so far as it is required. If one is to believe what one hears, which I assume is accurate; there are areas such as Dublin where serious infrastructural development is required. In that context we would argue that our other alternative should be used, of seeing it as infrastructural development put in with resources got in the way we outlined already. That brings us back to the idea that the basic structure should pay its own way. In that context there is a certain amount of value in having a payment process to maintain it on an ongoing basis but it is the better off who would wind up paying. Under no circumstances would we want to privatise the water system because then we would go the Eircom route and we would mess up the system completely.

Water is being privatised. At the moment at local level private water companies are treating water for councils. They charge for that. Water caretakers will come before the committee in January to speak about it. They will tell us how this is happening by stealth. It is not big news but bit by bit the system is being privatised.

Dr. Seán Healy

A fundamental principle for us is that it would not be privatised. This is a critical issue because water is essential for survival. Under no circumstances should that be under private control or be a service driven by profit. If it were, then we are into another ball game in which all sorts of consequences would arise that would not be acceptable. The basic point is that the system should pay its way. We must get to a situation where the infrastructure would be put in place through the other mechanisms we discussed and then a system could be put in place to pay for it in such a way that the bills are being paid by people who can afford to pay them. Ample opportunity should be provided for others to get the supply required to have a normal life. An issue arises in terms of the capacity of better off people and poor people to use resources in the first place. Poor people wind up subsidising better off people when there is a flat charge system. That is the perspective from which we are coming at the issue.

I welcome Dr. Healy and the team. I fully agree with the point about having a public supply of water and that the system would be in public ownership. Dr. Healy has been most helpful to people in rural parts of Galway, farmers in particular. I represent a rural constituency. When people set up a group water scheme they want it to be taken over because it is not possible for people to run such schemes forever. That is an important point.

It is very expensive now to set up a group scheme. Deputy Bannon referred to the expense of getting one's own supply. Issues arise about ultra violet light and the ESB. I accept that a grant is provided after seven years if one's pump breaks down, but one must wait seven years for a bit of help and one will only get that if there is no group scheme. The cost of the last group scheme in which I was involved worked out at approximately €2,000 per person. I am not fully convinced about the direction in which we should go. Similar to Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan I have gone every which way on the matter.

I have always considered that meters are a conservation measure as well as useful in identifying leaks. It is great that one hears the current generation of schoolchildren talking about the issue. However, I have always wondered why one would charge the same for a person with a meter as someone who could have a tap running all day. I am concerned about that. In recent years when we had bad weather I was upset by the fact that it was always pipes with meters that froze first because the pipes were nearer to the surface in order to facilitate the installation of the meter. One would wonder about promoting the use of meters when those with them were to first to have their problems with frozen pipes whereas the person with pipes far under the ground seemed to be unaffected. Would Dr. Healy make a case for a person with a meter in the sense that he or she is conserving water?

Dr. Seán Healy

We see meters as being useful in a conservation context. What we propose is that each person would get an allocation of 160 litres of water a day. If one is in a poor household, a member of the working poor, on welfare, or a person on low to middle incomes then one would have an allowance of 160 litres of water per person per day without having to pay. If one used more than that amount there would be a charge. That would encourage conservation of the water. Our understanding is that 160 litres is sufficient for a day. We included an additional amount for people with disability, those who are ill and special cases of that nature.

As we pushed this forward to people who were better off and well able to afford it, we reduced the amount of water they got for free and gradually the cost for the balance would increase as well, which would encourage those who are much better off, who are most likely to use an awful lot of water for cleaning cars, watering lawns and many other things.

Such as filling their swimming pool.

Dr. Seán Healy

Yes, and whatever else. The point is that people would be encouraged to conserve because of the charge attached above a relatively small allowance at that point. People would still get a certain amount but not anything close to the 160 litres I talked abut. In that context we see the process as good in conservation terms.

Mr. Mick Murphy

The metering and the conservation arguments do not necessarily stand up. It is counter-intuitive to say it but if one meters poor people it might work that way. None of us advocate that the Government would do that. In other words, for people who are in a position to pay for water the difference one would get between being very careful with water and not being careful is not that big. It was found in England that when metering was first introduced, the usage dropped from 150 litres per person a day down to 130 litres for a couple of months. It was a bit like what happened in this country when penalty points were first introduced. After a while everyone went back to doing what they did previously. The difference in money terms might be of the order of €100 per year. It was not worth the bother. The argument does not really stand up. The facts and figures in the submission we made suggest that one has much bigger fish to fry than domestic consumption in terms of leakage and what goes on in industry. To be honest, what would happen on the domestic side would be fairly insignificant in the overall scheme of things no matter what one did.

Some householders have fitted pumps to showers and I have not worked out why. My water tank is in the attic and when I stand in dthe shower, I get enough water without having to use a pump. I do not need the water to come at me like a shower of hailstones. If I am staying out overnight, in Dublin for example, I find the water in a shower comes at me like a shower of hailstones. This is one of the things we need to stop. The dual flush system and having smaller cisterns work. One does not need ten gallons of water to flush a toilet.

We have covered that issue. Does the Deputy have a new question?

Public private partnerships and bundling have been mentioned. The bundling of PPPs around small water provision units mean they are now controlled by private companies. Water and sewerage PPPs are also controlled by private companies. We are moving to a situation where a large semi-State commercial company could control one big pipe through the middle of the country. What is the delegates' view? Can the water service be kept within the public realm? I have huge concerns about this development. Do the delegates have similar concerns?

Mr. Murphy referred to the figure of 58% for water leaks in Roscommon. I am not happy with that figure. I was mayor of Roscommon last year and a county councillor for six years. The amount of piping it takes to supply the 58,000 people in Roscommon with water makes leakages inevitable. A solution was suggested by Dr. Healy, that county councillors keep an eye on this issue, but there is one flaw in his solution. County councillors do not have any power. People are sick and tired of hearing me say this, but I say it again. There are some brilliant water caretakers, but there are scenarios where if a councillor pushes too much to have a water leak fixed, he or she will find a road will not be tarred the next time he or she rings the office. That is where the problem lies. My electoral area of Castlerea - not by accident - has the lowest number of leaks in County Roscommon.

Dr. Seán Healy

Public ownership presents a real issue for us. We have a negative attitude to any erosion of public ownership of an essential asset. Water is one of the country's most fundamental, basic and essential assets. There should be no erosion of public ownership in this regard and we make no apology for adopting that position. Water services should be in complete public ownership. That is not an argument for saying they should be run inefficiently. They should be run properly and efficiently. I am aware of unbundling and other things going on. There is a real danger, with PPPs for example, that public ownership will be eroded in the long run. We take a negative view of this. The water supply should be in public ownership.

We have heard Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan's point before, but it bears repeating. Members of local authorities do not have power. Our view is that it should be decentralised. We have argued this for several decades, as we believe in subsidiarity. Decisions that can be made at local level should be made locally. There is no reason such decisions should not be made at local level. For several decades we have had centralisation. The late Mr. Tom Barrington who set up the Institute of Public Administration tried to get people to look at decentralising power and decision making. However, we have a long way to go. We would benefit from a real decentralisation of power.

Not just moving offices.

Dr. Seán Healy

That is not decentralisation but merely relocation.

Mr. Mick Murphy

With regard to fitting pumps to showers, one learns very quickly when dealing with water not to confuse flow rate with pressure. We are talking about flow rate in this instance. When we see someone using a power hose, we think a huge amount of water is being used, but that is not the case. If we try to fill a bucket with a power hose, we see how long it takes. New shower technology helps to conserve water. Smaller jets at higher pressure use less water. People should be aware of what they are buying when they install modern appliances, as new technology can improve conservation inside a household.

We mentioned dual flush cisterns and dual flushing systems. Dual flushing systems are still not included in Irish building codes, as Deputy Joe Higgins loves to remind people. He constantly referred to this during the campaign against water charges and continued to do so when elected in 1997. The building boom has come and gone and there is still no building code which states dual flushing systems must be fitted. The requirement is written into some planning regulations and county development plans, but there is no national directive. There should be a clear requirement. Nevertheless, dual flush cisterns are now almost standard. If one buys a toilet, that is what one will get. There is very little else available on the market.

Public private partnerships and the privatisation of water services have been mentioned. For a small country with such a plentiful supply of water we certainly make a meal of providing a water supply. We make a huge task out of something that is not that difficult to do. There should be central funding to help counties such as Roscommon and Leitrim which are sparsely populated and in which there are huge water losses. In such cases, the State should step in.

I was a member of South Dublin County Council for five years. I agree that councillors should have more power, but they should make better use of the powers they have. I could give some examples in this regard. However, that is the subject of a different discussion.

Taking off his campaigning hat and putting on his engineering hat, what is Mr. Murphy's opinion on the matter of the water supply? Does he see it as a progressive or regressive development to bring together the 34 local authorities currently providing a service? From an engineering perspective, would it lead to the provision of a better quality service and greater efficiency?

My second question is to Dr. Healy. On the basis that there will be a tariff system, with the tariff being applied by a single entity as opposed to 34 local authorities, how will we measure the composition of a household and put together an equitable tariff system? Would a PPS-based register of users, as opposed to a register of households, facilitate an examination of the composition of households in a more equitable and clear manner?

Mr. Mick Murphy

On the face of it, for a country this size it makes sense to have one company looking after the water supply. I say this as an engineer. The problem is that this is a political question. Are we saying water provision is a public function and will be so forever more? Anyone who sees this coming can see privatisation coming afterwards. That is where the problem lies.

If the service was left to local authorities, one could have 34 private companies.

Mr. Mick Murphy

I understand. One could take that route. In conducting some research in preparation for this meeting I noticed that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government did not have as firm a hand as it should on the water service throughout the country. Some of what we are talking about should be governed by simple rules. For example, the service in County Roscommon should not be allowed to lose water to the extent it does. The local authority should be required to sort out the problem. There are things the Government can do and many of the issues can be sorted out without changing anything. There is even existing legislation that could deal with the issues. I was asked about the leaks, but the legislation that could deal with the this issue is not being used. When the debate about ASBOs was on, it was thought these would fix all the crime problems in the country. We talk around things here, but there is legislation already in place. The argument against the ASBOs at the time was that there was already existing legislation and why not-----

I refer Mr. Murphy to the question asked. Wearing his engineering hat as opposed to his campaigning hat, does he think the concept of Irish Water creates a better infrastructure for the provision of sustainable water supplies in the country or does he think the 34 separate local authorities comprise a better mechanism?

Mr. Mick Murphy

Yes, but I suppose what I am saying is it exists to some extent. It is called the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It has the role of co-ordinating all this work across all the county councils.

Leaving aside the water charge issue, a utility called Irish Water is to be created. We have not figured out how the tariff system will work, but I guarantee the utility will be created. Does Mr. Murphy think one utility is a regressive or progressive measure or should we leave it as 34 local authorities?

Mr. Mick Murphy

I cannot take off my Socialist Party hat nor my campaign hat and never would.

What about the engineering hat?

Mr. Mick Murphy

It makes complete sense to co-ordinate the activities of the county councils throughout the country. As far as I know, that is supposed to be happening already. Why can it not happen under the structure we have currently? My concern with the other issue is 100% political.

We share the concern about privatisation. Everybody on this committee would share that concern. However, part of the committee's function is to look at the broader issue, not just the water charge. Given Mr. Murphy's engineering speciality, what is his view with regard to the development of Irish Water? Does he believe that bringing together what is currently done by 34 local authorities and creating a single entity, which will ensure water quality, sustainability, and guaranteed supply - we will not mention the tariff - would be a better approach than the current one? From an engineering perspective, would it be better in terms of fixing problems, dealing with issues at a wider level and having the skill set for that?

Mr. Mick Murphy

It is somewhat like the answer about the councillors having enough power. Is the Chairman saying that the officials of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government do not have enough power with regard to this matter? Is he saying that they cannot already co-ordinate this? How does it work around Dublin? The four local authorities in Dublin and Wicklow, Kildare and Meath are able to co-ordinate their activities perfectly and have done so for umpteen years. That works fine, so why can we not co-ordinate water services under the current system? Why do we need to change anything to get this to happen?

Mr. Murphy knows as well as I do that-----

They can sell it, that is why.

That is a disingenuous comment.

The Chairman does not like my opinion, but I do not expect him to.

I do not agree with half the opinions expressed by the Deputy here, but I have the good manners not to interrupt when he is speaking.

Which half? Perhaps the Chairman can tell me later.

To return to the question, Mr. Murphy knows as well as I do that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has a multitude of functions, including responsibility for housing and the environment. He knows the Department is not a service provider but facilitates agencies to provide services. What is on the agenda here is the creation of a utility. It may be a stand-alone utility or it may be attached to Bord Gáis in a surrogate fashion and may eventually become a stand-alone entity or remain with Bord Gáis, Bord na Móna or whatever. Currently we have 34 local authorities that provide water services as just one of the multitude of other services they provide. Water services are now to become a single service under a public utility that is in public ownership at this time, and we assume it will remain in public ownership. From an engineering perspective, does Mr. Murphy think that is a better structural approach than what exists currently?

Mr. Mick Murphy

We had the ESB and it supplied electricity and that was definitely better than what we have now. We had Telecom Éireann and it looked after the phones and would have looked after broadband and it was definitely better than what we have now. So, yes, generally publicly owned companies that co-ordinate activities like that are better. How come we do not have them any more? They are created in order to be broken up or sold off. There is a backdrop to these issues. In general, such utilities are, of course, better.

Thank you, Mr. Murphy. I now call Dr. Healy to respond.

Dr. Seán Healy

On the question of the creation of the Irish Water utility, the answer is "Yes". I agree it is a better way to go. However, I would make the qualification that great care must be taken to ensure it is not privatised and to ensure that it does not become just a silo that ignores the other issues at local government level. There is a danger sometimes that our development models operate as a silo, in the sense that they are on the ground, but are answerable to somebody at the top in Dublin or in the head office, and do not take enough cognisance of local realities. That is the value of the local authority. It has a real say and has the capacity to insist that issues are dealt with in an integrated way locally.

With regard to the register of electors, we overestimate difficulties here. This does not just happen with the water issue but also with site values and other issues. It is not really that difficult to establish the number of dwellings that exist. Following on that, it should not be that difficult to go a step further and discover who is in those dwellings.

It is hard enough.

Dr. Seán Healy

A census is held every five years and by law people must identify where they are.

There is a register of electors taken every year and it is inaccurate every year.

Dr. Seán Healy

Yes, but the difference between the register and the census is that the census is governed by law. There will always be some discrepancies at the margins and no matter what we do there will be some problem, but I am trying to suggest a mechanism that would work. Every five years we have a census and legally people must declare where they are. That should take us 95% of the way towards being able to nail down the numbers. If we have PPS numbers to identify each individual, we are in a better position to eliminate duplication or evasion. I do not have a problem with that. What I say is that we need to have a system where we can identify who is in what house. Otherwise, we cannot apply the allowances that would be required, which would be a big issue for the poor and people with low incomes. They must have the full value of the allowance to ensure they have sufficient water but do not wind up having to pay water charges to ensure that. I do not have a problem with them having to deal with the issue of wasting water. That is a different issue.

I apologise for being unavoidably late. I represent a rural constituency and am always very concerned when I hear people from urban areas campaigning about charges for services when rural people have been paying for these services for years. What vision do the witnesses have for the provision of water by a public utility and how do they see the existing rural schemes fitting into that? In rural areas without a rural scheme, there is no water supply. A high number of the schemes are under the control of local communities and could, therefore, be seen as private schemes. How will they fit in with the vision for a public body providing water. Rural people have for a long time paid for their water and for other services. How does this fit with a vision that all of these services should be free to all citizens? I hate to see the urban-rural set of citizens against each other. That is wrong and I wonder why there should be campaigns suggesting that it should be only urban citizens who get some of these services for free.

Mr. Mick Murphy

That is certainly not the case with our organisation, the Socialist Party. For instance, the septic tank tax campaign is linked to our campaign. I am from Killenaule in south Tipperary, Clare Daly is from Kildare and Joe Higgins is from Kerry. We are conscious of the urban-rural divide and try to link up with the countryside at all times. We defeated water charges in Dublin in the 1990s, but we did it for everyone in the country who was not on a group water scheme. Such schemes should be publicly owned. A local council must look after my mother's scheme in Tipperary. The scheme was set up in the 1970s and it has been a long time since locals had any input. According to the chief engineer in Limerick, the council must take care of many of the leaks in group schemes because others often do not have the wherewithal to do it. Group water schemes should be part of the public system. For a start, they should be put into the charge of county councils. I do not advocate the levying of charges. We pay many taxes and would like to see a return for them. Every citizen should get water from the public system and have it paid for by taxes.

Dr. Seán Healy

Each part of the country should be treated the same. What we are proposing has no urban-rural division. Some rural schemes are struggling to survive due to issues of water quality, maintenance, etc. A rural Deputy mentioned that greater requirements are being placed on such schemes. They should be part of the broader public sphere. People in rural water schemes have been required to pay for them for a long time, but the amount they pay and the basis on which they pay it should be no different from what and how everyone else pays.

All services cannot be free for all citizens, in that someone somewhere must pay. In terms of water, there should be a free allowance of 150 litres per day for low-income households - the working poor and people in receipt of welfare payments - and those quite a way above them. There should then be a two-part transition in which the amount of free water reduces and the cost of the balance beyond the household's allowance increases. We have set out some ideas in this regard. If there is wastage beyond the generous 150-litre allowance, charges would kick in principally as a conservation measure to encourage people to deal with the fact that water is being wasted.

There should be no urban-rural divide and the same requirements should apply across the country.

Has Social Justice Ireland consulted the rural water scheme network to establish its views on the matter? Many groups are proud of the excellent schemes they run. The standards are high and they like having control over what they charge. We need to take these factors into account.

Dr. Seán Healy

We have not consulted the network, but with the people running and struggling with some of the schemes. For example, some people have voluntarily been making substantial efforts for 20 or 30 years to maintain schemes and have found the transition to the next generation difficult, as those following them are not as clearly committed to doing the work voluntarily and the costs must be borne by the schemes' participants. In such situations, our proposed structure would afford greater security at a lower cost and people on low to middle incomes would pay no charges. This would be a better approach and we would happily consult with the network on its views.

Does Mr. Murphy wish to comment?

Mr. Mick Murphy

No.

Is it agreed that we have concluded this stage of our consideration on this topic? Agreed. I thank Dr. Healy, Sr. Reynolds - my apologies about the start of the meeting - Ms Murphy and Mr. Murphy for assisting us in our deliberations. I appreciate their submission. They are now excused.

I remind members of the Select Sub-Committee on Environment, Community and Local Government that it will commence Committee Stage of the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow in committee room 3. The meeting will suspend for lunch at 1.30 p.m. and resume at 3 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. If the consideration of the Bill has not been completed by that time, the select sub-committee will adjourn until an agreed date in January 2011.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.47 p.m. until 9.30 a.m on Thursday, 15 December 2011.
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