JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Mar 2012

Utilising the Arts to Combat Disadvantage: Discussion

Chairman

We will now discuss how to utilise the arts to combat disadvantage among the young, the old and the socially disadvantaged, and how to encourage their greater integration and social inclusion within local communities. I welcome the following: Mr. John Kelly and Ms Kathleen Turner, chief executive and education officer, respectively, of the Irish Chamber Orchestra; Mr. Declan Mallon, director of the Upstate Theatre Company; Mr. Pat Dowling and Ms Sheila Deegan, director of services and city arts officer, respectively, of Limerick City Council; and Mr. Conn Murray, Ms Bernie Woods and Mr. Brian Harten, county manager, director of services and county arts officer, respectively, of Louth County Council. I thank you all for attending the committee.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statements you have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee’s website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have four organisations before us today and I propose that we take them in the following order: the Irish Chamber Orchestra, the Upstate Theatre Company, Limerick City Council and Louth County Council. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before I call on the witnesses to begin their presentations, I would like to make the following opening comments. Music and drama are long established media for engaging people in groups and bonding individuals to bring these groups into cohesive working partnerships through their artistic endeavours, a shared effort and commitment to the achievement of an artistic objective. Individuals learn to work as a team, each person depending on those around him or her to achieve the overall objective.

What we are considering today is how we, as public representatives, the Government, through its relevant Departments, and local authorities can assist local groups in their efforts. The groups before us are here to tell us about their own experiences and needs, but they are also here as representatives of the overall voluntary and local government sector in Ireland. Our purpose here is not just to hear about good work that has been done, but to identify how this work can be done more effectively and more efficiently and how the hindrances that currently exist can be removed to enable the groups do a more fulfilling job.

Through our ongoing considerations, we hope to identify any gaps that exist and come up with realistic proposals to fill these gaps. We need to be innovative and imaginative, and most of all we need to listen to the witnesses before us today, along with the other groups who will come to see us in the next few weeks, and to share our views and questions with the witnesses.

It is important that we should put context on the questions. At government level, local government level, NGO and voluntary association level, are we doing all we can to promote a cost effective and efficient approach? Are we doing it in a way that reaches out to people who need it? Are we adding value to local community involvement in terms of participation?

I now call on Mr. Kelly to begin proceedings with his opening statement.

Mr. John Kelly

Ms Kathleen Turner, our education officer who runs the Sing Out With Strings programme, will make an opening statement on behalf of the Irish Chamber Orchestra.

Ms Kathleen Turner

Sing Out With Strings is a community music initiative run by the Irish Chamber Orchestra which brings music workshops and tuition into primary schools in regenerating areas of Limerick city. The overall purpose of this programme is to achieve positive social change through music. I will set out the origins of the project, what it entails, where we currently are and are looking to in the future.

The inspiration for Sing Out With Strings comes from a Venezuelan programme entitled El Sistema founded by Dr. José Antonio Abreu, who is a musician and composer and, crucially, an economist. He proposed the idea of utilising music as a tool for enabling children living in socio-economically disadvantaged areas, who are often restricted by their circumstances, to develop valuable life skills that would help them to grow as musicians and successful people. He began the project with 11 children and young people. The project has now spread to more than 300,000 children across Venezuela and has inspired projects in Australia, North America and Europe. The young people shown on the right-hand side of the screen are the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra which was developed out of the El Sistema project. It has been identified as one of the five most important orchestras in the world.

In an Irish context, we work in Limerick's regeneration areas. Publications of research on regenerations state that 42% of the population living within regeneration areas are under the age of 25 years and 25% are aged 14 years or under. As such, Limerick has a young population, which population is associated with problems of crime, unemployment, low school completion and a cyclical culture of poverty. Sing Out With Strings takes a creative approach to social regeneration. The Irish Chamber Orchestra cannot address issues such as housing and infrastructure but it can introduce children to new experiences on a daily basis which change their window to the world and, in turn, enable them to re-imagine their individual and collective identities, turning them from "youth at risk" to "youth in action" thus reviving their community and, in turn, redefining their futures on their own terms.

When Sing Out With Strings began in 2008 it had three aims, the first of which was to bring music into the culture of the school to enable personal, social and academic development through music and to enable children to meet, learn from and engage with professional musicians. All of this is based on the idea that music is not dispensable or fluffy but is an essential ingredient in the social, spiritual, intellectual well-being of the child. We do this in a strategic way. We work with children aged four to 12 years in three schools. Every child in these schools takes part in every aspect of the project. They attend weekly sessions in singing and song-writing and up to three weekly lessons in violin during school hours. We have an ethos of practice and performance so that not only are they attending sessions wherein they are learning new skills but they have frequent opportunities to showcase them in their community with the Irish Chamber Orchestra. We also hold "Meet the Musicians" sessions which involves inviting different musicians and artists to come into the schools and perform for the children so that they can meet with positive role models who are young and inspiring.

The project has grown from strength to strength. We began in September 2008 with seed funding from strategic innovation in education in one school where we worked with 60 children over one term in composing their own songs which were then arranged for and performed by the Irish Chamber Orchestra in their community. We are now in our fourth year and work with 290 children in three schools. The schools estimate that we have reached more than 2,000 community contacts, be they family, community leaders, people who attend the concerts and people who support the pupils in attending additional after school activities associated with the project. We have 36 new musical compositions all written by and with children. These were all arranged for the Irish Chamber Orchestra and performed live by the children. We have established two after-school orchestras. We are based on a community of learning and so it is not only children but teachers, special needs assistants, learning resource teachers, caretakers and secretaries who learn new skills or how to play an instrument. These lessons are held at 8 a.m. and after school. We help children as they progress thereby creating a culture of music as opposed to an add-on activity.

We have established a steering committee which has equal representation from parents, orchestra members and school teachers. This ensures the thrust of the project going forward is in community ownership. We work towards bringing positive press to Limerick so that children are associated with the potential of the area and their personal and collective achievements rather than carrying the weight of negative connotations. I can talk all day about this project. However, it is much more important the committee hears what children have to say about it. In this regard, I will play a short extract from a discussion with students from one of our schools in regard to why music is important.

The joint committee heard an audio presentation.

Of most importance in this context is not only what children say about the value of music to them but that we should never under-estimate what a child has to say. As just demonstrated, children are incredibly bright, insightful and packed full of potential, which is what this project is about.

Some of the outcomes of our evaluation and anecdotally from the members of staff at the schools we have been working with include a significant improvement in self esteem, confidence, communication skills across the curriculum, memory, working effectively as a team, discipline and respect. In our external evaluation in June 2011, which was conducted by the music education department of Mary Immaculate College, it is stated that at individual and collective levels the project is uniting communities, building local pride, creating vehicles for expression, stimulating emotional responses and developing tangible and musical knowledge and skills. The cross-curricular and community potential of the project is vast. This is not to say that everything is perfect. The project is only four years old. The 2011 evaluation also contained some weighty recommendations, which we take seriously including that we need to establish longer term and sustainable funding going forward, stronger partnerships in the classroom and community, and second level support for the children progressing to secondary schools. We do not currently have the resources to allow us continue the project to students beyond the age of 12 years. We depend on others to help us with that. We also need continued research and evaluation. I have returned to the University of Limerick to pursue a PhD in the area of music and social regeneration.

Sustaining projects such as Sing Out With Strings will not be easy, in particular in current economic times when it is tempting to withdraw resources from arts and arts education. However, the results we are seeing in the classroom indicate there is a need to hone, nurture and invest in this project which plays a tangible role in the development of the child and our communities.

Chairman

I thank Ms Turner for her presentation. I now invite Mr. Declan Mallon, director of the Upstate Theatre Company to make his presentation.

Mr. Declan Mallon

I am the director of the Upstate Theatre Company which is 15 years old. In its early stages we developed a four strand policy. Upstate Local is about animating original works with community organisations and people in the community; Upstate Learning is about collaborating with educational institutions; Upstate Lab is about experimenting with the form; and Upstate Live is the professional wing of the company which has gone on tour nationally and internationally.

Today we are most concerned with Upstate Local because it is directly linked to the topic being discussed. We develop meaningful partnerships with local community organisations and jointly develop performance projects with non-professional local groups and citizens. They work in collaboration with artists to develop new material relating to interests, subjects and topics which they want to address.

We participate in local art and community development networks with our colleagues in Louth County Council. We place artists and facilitators in residence. We are involved in cross-Border programmes with communities in Northern Ireland and also internationally, and this made up a large part of the first seven years of the company's work.

The organisations we have worked with include Macra na Feirme in Termonfeckin with which we developed two major projects looking at rural isolation. One of the shows premiered in the Dublin Fringe Festival and was one of the first non-professional performances to be accepted into the festival. We deliver the arts module of the Drogheda youth sector computer scheme, which is second chance education involving teenagers who have dropped out of education. We collaborate with Drogheda Youth Development on a regular basis, taking some of its clients into our projects. We also worked with Droichead Youth Theatre and the Mosney refugee centre on a particular project in which young Irish citizens looked at the issue of refugees and asylum seekers in Ireland. It was carried out at the early stages of the influx of immigration into Ireland. It was most relevant to Louth because Mosney refugee centre is just outside Drogheda. Adult projects in Drogheda include intercultural projects. At present we are heavily involved with the African community. In one of our projects 12 different nationalities were represented which shows the diversity in the community. Irish people were also involved. We are also involved in local performances based on local oral history in a programme we have been running for the past two years. This testimony was collected in Drogheda 20 years ago and a local community cast presents it with the guidance of artists.

The EU-funded crossover project was cross-community and cross-Border. The youth groups involved came from Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Fermanagh and south Tyrone. They were brought together at a central point every second week to work with the artists for a full Saturday to develop original material. It had the benefits I outlined when describing another project earlier and was aesthetically pleasing. Adult groups from Fermanagh, Monaghan and Louth worked in their areas and came together to share the work.

The general themes are personal and communal identity; investigating methods for devising original performances; collective storytelling; and presentation styles. New methods for devising original performances are important as no one set of rules or practice fits all groups. Generally, this is done in collaboration with the people themselves whereby we find what they are most comfortable with and develop it. Collective storytelling is self-explanatory; it is not about one person in a group deciding to write a performance or theatre piece for the group as instead it must be arrived at collectively. An important aspect of presentation style is choosing where to present a piece as well as how to present it. Sometimes the stage can be the biggest enemy of community theatre and it is necessary to take a piece from the stage or theatre and bring it to a locale or a more appropriate site for the skills of the performers and the story being told.

The practice involving the artists, who are an important element, and non-artists is always collaborative. It is also collective as the artist is briefed not to deliver a play but to ensure the collective processes are adhered to so there is a collective voice rather than one voice. The methods and practices we use must be accessible to all those who come through the door and ultimately it is participatory in nature.

Our funding partners are the Arts Council, the EU programme for peace and reconciliation, Create Louth, Drogheda Borough Council, Drogheda Partnership which was essential to the formation of the company, Louth Leader Partnership and previously the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for integration.

It may be too general to state this, and we can debate it later, but the ultimate purpose is to create a civic aesthetic space to be entered by any citizen for the exploration of self and community. It sounds like a grand mouthful but I am sure every cultural institution attempts to do the same. Another purpose is to develop access for all citizens via a number of partnerships which happen through local arts offices and youth and community development organisations. We also do this through open call by advertising in newspapers for people to come and play with us. Our purposes also include continuing to develop collective participatory methodologies. This is always of concern as we try to make our practice better. We look at how our European partners work and develop their methodologies and learn from them, as we always have. A further purpose is to develop conversations between the citizen artist and the artist citizen. I am sure my colleagues here will agree there is an innate creativity in every citizen and it is a matter of whether to tap into it and utilise it and whether an opportunity exists to do so. We also aim to ensure genuine conversation on the variety of aesthetic sensibilities innate in all people.

I concur with everything that has been stated on efficacy. Cultural expression, communication skills, self-confidence, self-motivation and socialisation are automatically part of the collaborative processes involved in creating theatre and art performances. Enough data exists, from the 1960s to the present, to underpin scientifically any claims made in these categories. "Access to rich cultural resources and participation in cultural activity interacting with social capital contributes to quality of life and well-being." I should have notes to tell me from where I got these words but I do not. It is generally accepted.

Utilising the arts to combat disadvantage for the young, the old and the socially disadvantaged and to encourage their greater inclusion in local communities is certainly something we do. Research data have been collected in Ireland. I am sure members of the committee are aware of the National Economic and Social Forum's report entitled, In the Frame or Out of the Picture: A Statistical Analysis of Public Involvement in the Arts, which does not make for comfortable reading in the context of the issue we are trying to address. It states: "Cultural inclusion is an equal right to participate in the nation's artistic and cultural life, to enjoy art, to make art, to participate in decisions about art, to comment vigorously on art, and to be active cultural citizens". The committee will probably agree that cultural inclusion can be thought of as a fundamental democratic right which, of course, it is, alongside the right to education and to participate in the formal democratic process. The main conclusion of the analysis is that involvement in the arts is strongly influenced by one's social and economic background. I am probably telling committee members things they already know, but people with lower educational attainment, of lower social class or on lower incomes are much less likely to be involved in the arts. That does not mean, however, that there is no interest in the arts among such persons; it is just that they are less likely to be involved in them. This finding does not apply only to the high arts such as classical music, the theatre and art exhibitions, it applies right across the spectrum, including mainstream films, comedy and popular music, as well as reading. Therefore, it is not just in the case of the high arts that there is a problem and it is interesting that the report includes a wide definition of the arts.

A substantial amount of revenue for the arts, and sport for that matter, is generated by the national lottery and, according to the report, the money is spent regressively. The method of collection increases the regressive transfer of wealth simply because lottery tickets are bought disproportionately by those of lower class. These findings which are similar in the case of sport mean that if overall policy does not explicitly and successfully target those in lower social economic groups, it is harder to justify the way the arts are funded.

Another finding from the research is that none of the mainstream arts organisations is required by any national policy or legislative provision to allocate funding to programmes which promote cultural inclusion. There is no legislation which states they have to do so, but that is not to say they do not. As we know, the Abbey Theatre has a fine outreach department. One of the problems to which my colleague referred is that there are interventions, but they need to be genuine intersections between arts organisations, community organisations and ultimately citizens. Investing in citizen artists, rather than just in art for the citizen is not an either-or debate; it is for both. The artist citizen is equally important in our programmes and projects as the citizen artist. As we have heard, sustained engagement is required, not occasional engagement. It needs to be sustained and programmatic, rather than being short-term and project-based. Quality outcomes are needed, not just quality outputs. Everybody wants quality outputs, but quality outcomes are very important in our work. Thankfully, we have seen great quality outputs. For instance, "Laundry" which won The Irish Times theatre award had five professional and 19 community actors. That is a fine example of how high aesthetic quality can be attained within programmes of this nature. Such programmes should be proactive and central, not just reactive and marginal.

In utilising the arts to combat disadvantage for the young one cannot look at what is in place and conclude it is equal. The goal of equality should be at the heart of this debate. Every citizen - certainly every public servant - should take the trouble to read, The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone. It is impossible to overstate the implications of this brave and transformative thesis, the conclusion of which is simple: we do better when we are equal. That goes not only for the cultural and arts sector but also for society in general. That is where we need to focus because everything else can flow from it.

As we move towards a new vision for the arts, including cultural accessibility and participation, it would do no harm to bear in mind the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, of which Article 27 states: "Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits". I hope that in that rant I have articulated something that will be of use to the committee.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Mallon for his presentation. I invite Mr. Dowling, director of services at Limerick City Council, to address the committee.

Mr. Pat Dowling

I will make a few overall comments before asking my colleague, Ms Deegan, to give some examples of what we are doing.

Most people know that Limerick is an exciting place with a rich and diverse cultural infrastructure. That perception is shared by artists, students and cultural practitioners. For 30 years we have been involved in a range of activities which recently have included the survival and revitalisation of the National Dance Company. We have extended the municipal gallery of art and almost finished constructing eight artists' apartments - social housing for artists. We have also secured the long-term future of the Belltable Theatre and developed Creative Limerick which uses vacant retail space in the city centre for arts and cultural purposes, of which there has been a good take-up. We have engaged with the city's regeneration programme. As Kathleen Turner and John Kelly have outlined, "Sing out with Strings" is a prime example of the stuff that is going on.

There is significant capital and current investment in the ongoing running of the arts service, the key to which must be dealing with social exclusion leading to social inclusion. We have a range of artists involved in community schemes and the umbrella project. In addition, local development agencies such as Youth Service, our local partnership company, all have the arts as part of their work programmes. We also run summer arts workshops.

The key debate today is about social exclusion. Sometimes we rush to try to understand what this means, but it is a big issue. In Limerick we have had our own challenges during the years. Social exclusion is a complex and multidimensional issues which encompasses unemployment, poor skills, low incomes, poor housing and high crime environments. It affects individuals, groups and geographical areas at different levels. In that context, we must understand how we can respond to it through the arts, including cultural activities. It was interesting to watch the report on "Nationwide" last night on the Limerick prisoners' art exhibition which is taking place in Dublin this week. It is another typical example of how one can change human behaviour. From our perspective in Limerick city, much work has to be done in utilising the arts. It has to be about increasing self-confidence, educational attainment, social cohesion, community development and urban regeneration. It may occur in small ways, but they all matter. It is also about reducing the level of offending behaviour.

In developing any policy we must be clear in what we mean by social exclusion and the areas we can tackle. We have made some recommendations in our submission, but I will not go over them because members of the committee have received a copy of it. The recommendations concern ring-fencing arts funding specifically for social inclusion projects, rather than local authorities and other agencies engaging in a cherry-picking exercise. It must be done centrally as part of Government policy with Arts Council funding, for example. We firmly believe local authorities - I am not just talking about Limerick City Council - are key players in rolling out arts services and infrastructure. We should have a place on the Arts Council as a major partner with statutory powers. While there are now constraints on the spending of money, every local authority expends significant funds annually in the development of the arts. Those are the types of issues with which we must grapple in discussing social exclusion and the provision of an arts service into the future. Our dynamic arts officer in Limerick city, Ms Sheila Deegan, will outline a number of initiatives in which we are engaged in this area.

Ms Sheila Deegan

As Mr. Dowling mentioned, Limerick City Council has had a commitment to the arts going back more than 30 years. It started formally in 1987 when the Arts Council and Limerick City Council entered into a cultural agreement, which was the first such commitment to the arts in Ireland between a local authority and the Arts Council. That was two years after the appointment of the first arts officers.

As an arts officer with almost 25 years experience, it is important to give a potted history of the changes that have happened. When I started in my role in Limerick in 1989, Clíodhna Shaffrey had started in her role in Cavan, and we used to call each other to talk about what we were doing because at that time the role of arts officers was decided by the Arts Council and it was decided that they should be put in place in local authorities in recognition of the fact that a great deal of activity happens at local level. Since then all the local authorities have an arts officer and every local authority also has an arts strategy.

In Limerick, our strategy has at its core inclusion - the reason we are here today - professional development, aesthetic value, local ownership and strategic partnership. To illustrate some of those areas, in the presentation I mention five projects that would address each of those guiding principles and that apply to Limerick City Council arts office.

Cuisle International Poetry Festival is held every October in Limerick. The festival takes place over four days and it has workshops, readings, book launches and visiting poets. Even though in the evening we charge people to attend, during the day and at lunchtime entry is free. We also have a young poet of the year competition that is nationwide and addresses children from the age of five up to the age of 18. Their poems are seen by contemporary Irish poets who give feedback to the poets. It also gives them an opportunity to come to Limerick and read their work to an audience, probably for the first time, and hopefully in a way that will engage them in poetry through their lives.

As Mr. Dowling mentioned, Limerick City Gallery of Art has just undergone its second phase of development under ACCESS funding. It is open seven days a week and admission is free. That in itself suggests it is inclusive, but the gallery also has a programme of exciting contemporary exhibitions based on the historic permanent collection and also on their contemporary visiting exhibitions. Family days are held every month and, as a separate offer from Limerick City Council, there is free parking in the area on a Saturday. It is not just about having projects in place; it is also about combining the other services the local authorities can offer in making sure that what we have put in place is used to its best potential.

EVA is an exhibition of international art that was founded by artists in Limerick in 1977. It is artist-centred and is innovative in that it uses many spaces - not just gallery spaces - in the city. It also has a programme of talks, workshops and events that are inclusive. In 2006, the artist, Ciara Finnegan, was selected by the curator to develop a video work. She worked with the choreographer, Jenny Roche, and together they had a series of meetings which they advertised in the newspapers. It was not a group of people that were already together; they responded to a public call. The main criterion was that one had to be over 60. Normally it is those under 60 who apply. They developed this wonderful dance piece which was shown and bought subsequently by the Limerick City Gallery of Art. It is currently on display. It was rewarding for all the people involved because of the way everybody engaged with it and the cross-fertilisation of ideas between the artist and the community that ended up being involved.

Culture Night is funded by the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and is an event in which Limerick City Council has been engaged for four years. For us, it is a positive event because we are often criticised in that we are not seen to be cohesive in the way we present all the activities that take place in Limerick. Since we started Culture Night, the number of organisations involved has increased from 12 to 22 and we have managed to get 6,000 people involved in it. The benefits speak for themselves because it is a co-ordinated approach by the arts organisations within the city. There is a sense of celebration around the arts and, specifically in 2011, we put in place a more inclusive campaign which was not just advertisements encouraging people to come and see the events. Along with the community arts committee that has been set up through regeneration, we had a bus that toured the regeneration areas and invited people to come out on Culture Night. They were met in town by street ambassadors who directed them to the events. The feedback was interesting because many people said they passed those venues every day but did not realise they could go into them. Sometimes it is the small things that can encourage people to be involved.

Another project is the Horse Outside in the grounds of the Hunt Museum and the "Horse Outside" video will be known to the members through The Rubberbandits. As horses are an integral part of the lives of the children in Roxboro, they decided that representation was what they wanted to work with. A fibreglass horse was bought and, based on the collection of the Hunt Museum, the school completion programme worked in partnership with the Hunt Museum, looked at the collection, which was represented on the horse and it was displayed outside the museum. For the Hunt Museum it was a signifier of many things, and the fact the horse was displayed outside the door of the museum meant it acted as a tourist attraction. It also helped the museum to reach new audiences by having the school completion programme involved.

Having been an arts officer for a long time, I believe local authorities have invested a great deal from a capital point of view. We recently funded, as Mr. Pat Dowling said, eight artists' apartments. We could not do what we do without having a cohort of artists living in our city. We are lucky in the sense that Limerick has a high calibre and a high quantity of professional artists living in the city. In recognition of that, we have built eight apartments for living only; they are not studio spaces. That is in recognition of the fact that we must have artists within our community to ensure these projects can exist.

Chairman

I thank Ms Deegan. I call Mr. Conn Murray, county manager, Louth County Council.

Mr. Conn Murray

I am joined today by my director of service, Ms Bernie Woods, and my arts officers will attend shortly. I will make some brief points in the context of from where we are coming both as a local authority and as a sector.

Louth, with which the members will be familiar, has a population of 122,000. We are the second most densely populated county in the country, with 70% of our population urban based, and therefore we experience the realities of urban disadvantage and rural isolation, both of which must be managed.

As a sector, members will be extremely familiar with the realities to which we have had to adopt in the past four years in terms of our operations in the face of the current economic crisis. In that time our sector has responded by achieving savings of more than €700 million and it has seen a reduction in staff numbers of more than 8,000. These are facts that have forced us to continue to focus on how we can best maximise our resources to ensure front-line services are preserved and the community we serve is put first.

As a sector, we are extremely conscious that while we are in the midst of the toughest of economic times, we are delighted to have the opportunity to participate in this debate because we believe there is no better time to invest in and continue to support not only the development but also the integration of the arts and culture into our respective programmes. In that regard, I am not only referring to local authorities but to the public sector because we must respond as a public sector and not simply as individual sectors to the relative issues.

Mr. Brian Harten will outline some of the projects in which we have been participating and which we believe are of value in further progressing this debate.

Mr. Brian Harten

The topic for discussion is broad and is one with which Louth County Council has been engaged since the establishment of the first arts officer position in our council in 2002. Our arts plan has as its first goal to move to a situation where access to and participation in the arts is a real and viable choice for all citizens of Louth. Despite many years of initiatives and projects, national and local, aimed at broadening participation in the arts, it is still a relatively common perception that the arts are an elitist activity enjoyed by the privileged few. Encouraging increased participation in the arts is an integral part of the work of Louth local authorities arts service. We believe that progress has been made, and it is our intention to build on those foundations.

There are barriers. It has often been said that location and economic status are the two main barriers preventing real access to, and participation in, the arts. Great strides have been made in combating geographical disadvantage, which at one time meant that only people lucky enough to live in or beside cities and large towns could attend arts events. Today, due to partnerships between the Department and local authorities utilising ACCESS I and II, far more regional towns and communities can proudly boast of their own dedicated arts venues. Louth local authorities were pleased to use these departmental funds to carry out a significant upgrade of the theatre and visual arts spaces in Dundalk town hall.

As well as the arts facilities in the town hall in Dundalk, Louth local authorities support Droichead Arts Centre and Highlanes Gallery, both in Drogheda. We have also worked closely with Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in developing the Oriel Centre, one of the Comhaltas regional centres, based at the Old Gaol in Dundalk. However, buildings for the arts are only part of the formula required to combat geographical disadvantage. Buildings require performances of music and drama, readings and exhibitions. They also require skilled and experienced arts workers to initiate outreach schemes to convince communities of the benefits and value of the arts. This requires ongoing funding to ensure communities develop a sense of ownership of these facilities, and points to the necessity for close co-operation between the Department, the local authority, community groups, and the Arts Council in planning for cultural infrastructural development.

Mention must also be made of the role of arts festivals in combating geographical disadvantage. Louth has developed a strong roster of arts festivals, with Drogheda Arts Festival, Drogheda Samba Festival, An Chúirt Chruitireachta and Leanbh just some of the celebrations of creativity in the county. Investment in festivals can bring significant arts events to smaller communities, with attendant economic benefits and improved public perception of the town or region. Louth local authorities initiated Ardee Baroque in 2004, which sees the mid-Louth town host baroque music performances from Ireland, the UK and the USA each November. However, it should be stressed that an integral part of Ardee Baroque is an extensive outreach programme which sees workshops, lectures and children's activities taking place before and during the festival, with every school in the area being visited by musicians from the Irish Baroque Orchestra.

Economic status as a barrier to arts participation is a more difficult nut to crack. Socially disadvantaged groups still have lower attendance and participation levels than other groups. Louth local authorities recognise our responsibilities in ensuring that arts provision is accessed as equitably as possible. This is an ethical requirement, and it also makes sense from a personal development, community development and economic development standpoint. The arts have the inherent ability to impact positively on all these strands. Therefore, it makes sense that we ensure that all our investments in the arts have as wide a resonance and relevance as possible.

The arts service in Louth has two approaches which underpin our efforts to extend the reach of the arts – partnerships and relevance. As regards partnerships, with limited resources and limited staffing, we realise that strategic alliances with organisations and individuals who share our commitment to access and participation are essential. Organisations such as Upstate Theatre Project have experience, expertise and practices which enable us to work confidently with it in delivering projects and programmes in areas of disadvantage. Calipo Theatre and Picture Company is another Louth-based company which is skilled in working with communities who perceive the arts as something foreign and not for them.

Farther afield, we enjoy a growing relationship with the outreach department of the National Concert Hall in the provision of a tailored music programme for older people in our community. The arts service also sees the youth theatre sector as very important in engaging with younger people, and we are delighted to invest in the three youth theatres in existence in the county. We also work closely with the National Association for Youth Drama in supporting new initiatives in areas without youth theatre provision. In all these partnerships, the Arts Council has been a significant presence, either in assisting with funding or supplying advice.

As well as organisations, the arts service understands and values the skills of individual artists across various disciplines in non-arts contexts. We have completed, over recent years, a series of artists' residencies throughout the county which saw, for example, a writer-in-residence with a GAA club in Collon, a film maker-in-residence in two schools in Dundalk, a visual artist-in-residence with a primary school in Carlingford, a dance artist-in-residence in Drogheda and a street spectacle artist-in-residence with youth groups in Dundalk. These residencies unlocked creativity in people who would not normally perceive themselves as artists or creators. This is challenging work and requires an artist who is both adept as an artist and who is also skilled in bringing people with them on a journey towards self expression. The arts service has also utilised the Per Cent for Art scheme to allow us to develop artists' residencies in selected locations in Louth, resulting in a deeper engagement with the community which hosts the artist.

The second approach is relevance. Those of us who work in public arts provision and those who make funding decisions must remain open to new definitions of the arts and art forms. The rapid rise of digital gaming,new verbal art forms such as rapping and the importance of rock and popular music to young people should inform policy makers in their priorities and provision. We must guard against rash judgments about the value of different art forms. Instead, we should encourage creativity in whatever form it presents itself.

In Dundalk, we hosted an exhibition in the Basement Gallery by two young graffiti artists from the town, Kube and Omin. The gallery attracted an entirely new audience and affirmed the value of the two young artists. They felt that they were recognised as visual artists, on a par with painters and sculptors. A piece of graffiti art was purchased for the council art collection, and Kube and Omin were commissioned by businesses around Dundalk to create new work in locations around the town. This was a thoroughly positive event, with increased levels of understanding between young artists working outside the formal gallery system and the arts service.

Similarly, the arts service of Louth local authorities worked closely with Louth VEC in establishing Music Generation Louth, which will see subsidised music instrument tuition in five venues throughout the county. Louth was one of the first three counties to successfully apply for funding from Music Generation, whose fund has been dubbed the U2 fund. A recognition that music tuition has to encompass rock music and traditional music, as well as classical, was vital to our pitch for funding and vital to making Music Generation Louth's programme relevant and meaningful to young people in our county.

The requirement for the arts to be relevant is not confined to younger groups. The national Bealtaine Festival, which celebrates creativity in older people, is a great initiative and one in which we in Louth have been delighted to participate. Sometimes, older people have been passive observers-----

Chairman

I apologise for interrupting but I will have to ask you to summarise your statement as we will be asking witnesses to contribute and I wish to give everybody a fair amount of time. Ms Woods also wishes to contribute.

Mr. Brian Harten

Will I outline the recommendations?

Chairman

Yes, thank you.

Mr. Brian Harten

Using the arts to combat disadvantage requires expertise across a range of areas, such as community development, planning, youth work, health services and community arts. City and county development boards, CDBs, already exist as developmental structures and consideration should be given to utilising these structures to deliver targeted, well-planned and relevant arts programmes. For this to happen successfully, two things must change: the current make-up of the boards and the necessity for ring-fenced funds.

At present, the membership of each county development board is constituted in such a way that there are no arts or cultural positions reserved on the board. This means there is likely to be an absence of champions for the arts on CDBs, thus making it difficult for arts initiatives of the type we have been discussing to succeed at board level. This should be changed.

Second, and in light of the economic situation in which we find ourselves, moneys available to advance county development board programmes should contain a realistic amount to be used in the development of long-term arts programmes to ensure their appropriate integration in CDB programmes. These two changes, the bringing of arts expertise to county development boards and realistic funding, will move us from a situation where we allow arts programmes to happen to a situation where we ensure they happen.

Valuing our venues is important. It would be a mistake to see arts programmes as purely for disadvantaged communities and mainstream arts venues as primarily for the middle classes. If we have a responsibility to develop programmes which ensure all our citizens have access to the arts, we also have a responsibility to make the best arts experiences available to all our citizens. Galleries, theatres and concert halls which include in their programmes innovative and exciting exhibitions and performances are essential for the cultural well-being of communities. However, we need to ensure the outreach programmes of cultural venues are fit for purpose and relate to all strands of communities.

How do we support our creative industries? One of the main aims of a community-based arts programme is to unlock the creativity both of the individual and the community. As a nation, we have a heritage of creativity and the creative industries offer a new opportunity to achieve economic growth. They are usually defined as encompassing advertising; architecture; arts and antiques; computer games; crafts; design; designer fashion; film; television and radio; music; the performing arts; publishing; and software-digital media. Unlike Northern Ireland, we do not have sector-specific supports for the creative industries, yet as a nation, we have a natural aptitude to engage in these industries. Ireland is seen throughout the world as a uniquely creative place.

We referred to new art forms as means of expression which should be supported. This support should be extended to fledgling industries which rely on creativity. The Louth local authorities are active partners in the development of Creative Spark, an enterprise support centre for the creative industries in the north east which will open its doors in June. We see the support of creativity as a constant thread in our work, from working with young people to recognising the potential of creativity in job creation and revenue generation. A national policy for the creative industries, backed up by sector-specific supports, would provide a significant boost for creativity in all its forms.

There is huge goodwill for the arts in Ireland. It is something we are good at, something that comes naturally. We have been slow, however, to ensure all of the population can access quality engagement in the arts. We need an attitudinal change which will see engagement in the arts as a right, not as an optional add-on. The arts must be embedded in the education system. The benefits which they bring to contexts of disadvantage must be recognised. Creativity should be seen as something which can give Ireland Inc the edge on the world economic stage. We must move from arts projects to programmes which embed the arts and creativity in all our activities, social and economic. A knowledge economy is good; a creative society is better.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting us to share our experiences and aspirations with them. We wish members the very best as they continue their work.

Chairman

I call Ms Woods and ask her to outline her recommendations. The purpose of the meeting is to allow members to engage with the delegates. I hope, therefore, the representatives of the local authorities will summarise their presentations. I know the local authorities all do fantastic work, but what we need are examples of how experience of the arts benefits the disadvantaged, not a catalogue listing every single activity engaged in.

Ms Bernie Woods

As my colleague, Mr. Harten, has outlined the recommendations made, I will leave it at that.

Deputy Robert Troy

I thank all the delegates for their informative and interesting contributions. Having worked with the arts officer in Westmeath County Council, I am aware of the good work done by the various arts officers. How can Members of the Oireachtas be of assistance to the various organisations which the delegates represent? In stringent times the provision of funding is of paramount importance, but arts officers are being asked to do more with less. Will the delegates outline what we can do to assist them in their future endeavours?

Mr. John Kelly

The future of the country is its citizens. We are learning through the Sing Out With Strings programme in South Hill that every child has significant and fantastic potential. Music plays a unique role in helping children to develop their inventive skills and should be placed at the centre of the primary school education programme in order that every child will have access to it. What we are finding is that if a child believes in himself or herself and if the desire button in him or her is ignited, he or she will take it from there and solve the unemployment problems. We are monetising our research and what we are seeing only four years into the programme is substantial savings in social and health services. There is a need to look at policy on primary and pre-primary school education. If one can get a child to think the right way about his or her potential and abilities, that he or she is not a prisoner of his or her environment, that the circumstances surrounding him or her do not define his or her future, that within him or her is incredible potential, all one needs are parents, mentors and teachers to encourage the child to go after his or her dream, regardless of what it is.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their informative presentations. Leaving aside the issue of funding, what are the main challenges they have faced since the programme started? How will they build stronger partnerships with community organisations? In regard to Cuisle, Limerick City International Poetry Festival, how many schools participate in the festival?

Ms Kathleen Turner has mentioned that the Irish Chamber Orchestra programme is four years old and available in three schools. Is it envisaged that it will expand and, if so, what is the expected timeframe?

As I have a strong personal interest in the Travelling community, will somebody tell me more about the RAPID programme Traveller story telling project?

Ms Sheila Deegan

I will respond to the questions asked on the Cuisle poetry festival and the Traveller story telling project.

Over the four days of the festival we have workshops for schools on the Wednesday, Thursday and Friday - in the morning we have workshops for primary schools and in the afternoon for secondary schools. On any given day there are four workshops, involving four schools. The poetry competition encompasses all schools. We have had a major response to it and the winners this year were from Kilkenny and Cork.

Part of the remit of the RAPID programme covers social inclusion. As the newly appointed arts officers forged linked with the local authority, they availed of funding under the programme. In Limerick we received funding for a story teller and a photographer. We collected stories from Travellers and with their agreement took portrait photographs of them. It was a six week project and after working for three hours every day for six weeks with the story teller and the photographer, we compiled their stories in a publication. It was a memory for them of the stories they wanted to tell.

On the question of forging stronger links with the community, the remit of the local authority has expanded with the Better Local Government initiative and the introduction of city and county development boards. This has allowed us to create stronger links because the city and county development boards in Limerick are involved in the Life Long Learning Festival, Integration Week, Mobility Week and the arts being used as a tool in all these events. The community arts committee in Limerick came together because the regeneration group considered it was being asked by every community for funding. We are trying to be coherent in our approach to community arts projects.

Chairman

Before I call Deputy Gerald Nash, I acknowledge that the invitation to the Upstate Theatre Company was extended on his recommendation.

Deputy Gerald Nash

This important meeting buildings on some of the work done last week. The Sing Out With Strings programme is impressive and well known nationally, one for which I commend the representatives. How did the representatives involve parents at an early stage, was any reticence detected in terms of engagement with local families and, if so, how was it addressed? Is there any post-project support for participants who have engaged in the project? How can we sustain the interest initially identified in the project given that music lessons are generally expensive given and the serious deficiency in music education at second level? I would appreciate a comment on that issue.

Turning to Upstate Theatre Company, of which I have personal and regular experience of its production processes, sometimes in respect of Upstate and the participatory theatre projects, the process is as important as the actual production. I witnessed that and can see the value it has for individual participants, including those in my community and other communities in which Upstate has operated in the past decade and a half. Mr. Declan Mallon made the point that money in respect of the arts sector can be spent regressively, and directly quoted some research to that effect. I suspect, given his contribution, that he tends to agree with that reference. What should be prioritised? There is no explicit requirement to promote cultural inclusion in respect of the Arts Council or any other actors in the arts sector. Notwithstanding that there was an implicit understanding that many organisations work in that area and fulfil a very important function, how do we change the terms? Is legislation required? Is more guidance required? How will those policy changes be made? Is inequality becoming more embedded in decision making around arts funding and arts policy or is the position improving?

In respect of the contributions made by the local authority representatives, Louth and Limerick county councils, local authorities have assumed a huge role in respect of the arts in recent years. Arguably, after the Arts Council, local authorities are probably the primary funder of arts organisations and artists. I am interested in the proposal to broaden representation on county development boards. That is a practical recommendation in terms of how funding is spent and allocated and how policy decisions are made pertaining to the arts. Local authority arts offices and officers are exemplarsin terms of working in partnership and collaboration with a range of stakeholders and funding organisations. Public representatives, public sector organisations and Departments can all learn how that is achieved, particularly in a more constrained funding environment.

Arts functions of local authorities have evolved in recent years but I do not detect an evolution in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government's thinking on the arts. I get the impression from speaking to some people that the development of the arts section in local authorities almost happened by accident or happened organically on the ground and perhaps patchily in various local authorities, but not necessarily with a significant direct input from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It tends to see arts as an issue for the Arts Council, the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and other stakeholders but not necessarily for itself. I am interested to hear the observations on that issue and how the Department's policy can feed into the arts sector in a more coherent way. So far as I can recall there is no requirement for local authority membership on the council of the Arts Council. Given the function of local authorities, do the representatives believe it would be a progressive move if there was a requirement on the Arts Council to work more closely with local authorities and a reflection of the role of the local authorities in the wider arts function in society through membership of the Arts Council?

Ms Kathleen Turner

On the issue of the desire of parents, the original request for the project came from a parent in Roxboro, following which an initial meeting was held in the pilot school, Galvone, which had one of the highest attendances from parents in regard to the start of the new project. There was certainly a sense of enthusiasm from the parents. However, that is not to say we have not worked on that since the project began. We have seen a steady increase in the number of parents attending concerts and after-school activities. One of the most positive changes we have seen is parents' willingness, through the project, to engage positively with their children's education. There are parents who take their children to extra lessons in the morning at 8 a.m. A single mother comes at 8 a.m. three times a week with her son who is in first class and sits in on his violin lessons and has started to take those with him. The more of that we can see, the better, and we are trying to encourage it. Next year we hope to extend the children's community orchestra to include parents as well as teachers. That is a confidence issue on which we are making progress. It is a long-term project.

The question of how we can sustain interest and maintain the sustainability of the project is something we talk about and explore all the time. Obviously funding is an issue and we are always applying for and seeking funding from various avenues. We have been lucky in our relationship with Limerick Regeneration and the JP McManus Foundation. We have had some private donors and donors from the Ireland funds, but sustainable funding is a major concern.

Deputy Gerald Nash

On a point of clarification, when I mentioned sustainability, what I meant was how one sustains the engagement and involvement, post-project, of the young person who has gone through the project.

Ms Kathleen Turner

In secondary school there is a major concern because the resources are not going into that sector. We depend on the secondary schools themselves. Many of the schools are in a position where, after first year, they have to choose between music or art. That is a big problem. It is a systemic problem that one can have music or art. Why not both and why are they not centrally important?

Deputy Gerald Nash

Music is not available at all. Is that correct?

Ms Kathleen Turner

Exactly. It is interesting to note we conducted a survey on this issue recently and called a number of schools and spoke to school secretaries and music departments. There was an interesting correlation between schools in areas of socioeconomic disadvantage and areas where music was available in a school. It is difficult in primary schools because one expects the primary school teacher to deliver a multitude of activities and also the curriculum restricts them to one hour per week. We are imaginative in our cross-curricular activities. In terms of sustaining that interest we have worked with the Limerick School of Music and have sponsored some children last year who are now taking evening lessons at the Limerick School of Music. We want to do more of that but it is a major concern. We have children who want to continue but we are not at the stage where we can provide the resources where they can work in partnership with other people.

Mr. Pat Dowling

In regard to the query on the Department's thinking, the Arts Council and so on, under the Arts Act 2003 every local authority is required to prepare and implement a plan for the arts within its functional area. That is a strong statutory instrument. As always, the thinking can be good at a local level, we can be joined up and know where we are going, but that may not always be the case at national level. Irrespective of which Department is involved, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government governs local authorities and there is some engagement. In fairness, the County and City Managers Association has established a liaison group with the Arts Council, but that is an informal structure and is relatively new. The view in Limerick is that the Arts Council is the vehicle of government for the arts and cultural development. Given our increased role in the past 30 years, if all local authorities did not provide facilities for the arts, we would be worse off for it. We should be engaged at that level with the Arts Council in a meaningful way to examine how to roll out the arts, particularly in the context of social exclusion, and how to help the Government's thinking around utilising arts and culture as a tool for tackling social exclusion.

Mr. Conn Murray

To take up from where Mr. Pat Dowling is coming from in terms of Limerick, it is critical that the relationship between the local authorities and the Arts Council is increased. As the Deputy indicated, the greatest spend and level of community of activity comes from local authority involvement. It is an improvement in terms of our Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government that community is now an essential part and there is an opportunity to build on it. As the Deputy will be well aware local authorities have many parent Departments. The thrust of our argument was that community development boards, CDB, with a statutory base, should see the arts are integrated and give a local endorsement of community participation. It can no longer stand alone in the current financial climate because all bodies are being systematically and substantially squeezed. The areas of focus will be on core projects and services for the customer. We must change our approach from a policy perspective and integrate art at an early stage through the CDB process thus enabling all public service agencies to respond. They should respond, and be obliged to, under the legislation.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

It is strange for me to be on this side of the room because Mr. John Kelly is my colleague. We have fought on the same side of the national campaign for many years and we will continue to do so.

I acknowledge Mr. Mallon's contribution. I hope that the committee will take his comments on board, compile a report and then invite the Minister to attend a meeting. The universal declaration of human rights is extraordinary and potent and Article 27 is an important one and I thank Mr. Mallon for reminding us of that.

We have debated cultural inclusion. I would like to hear the views of John Kelly and Declan Mallon on social inclusion and the human right of cultural active citizenship or the citizen artist and artist citizen. Sometimes there is a battle about funding in the short term. In the 1980s excellence was polar opposite to reach or participation but that should never have happened. It is a ridiculous notion that excellence is just about the high arts and not the low arts. It should be about excellence and the process of achieving it. My colleague, Deputy Nash, spoke about the Upstate Theatre Company and how it has an excellent process for making art that is highly valuable and of high quality. I am concerned that we will have a debate on basing funding on the numbers of people participating when it should not be. I know Mr. Mallon did not say it but I want to hear his view and it is important for the committee to hear his response.

My next question is for Mr. Kelly. The Irish Chamber Orchestra is world class and is one of the greatest orchestras here and a world class cultural export. It has travelled all over America, China and elsewhere. Why did it bother with the project? It does not need to but I want to hear why it considers the project to be valuable. I agree with Mr. Mallon that national cultural organisations for the arts should have a greater involvement in cultural inclusion. I want to hear the orchestra's motive for its involvement in the project.

The recommendations made by Mr. Murray and Mr. Harten on the city and county development boards are good and practical. I applaud and commend them. The committee should bear the recommendations in mind in its final deliberations. We should work at policy level and ensure that the arts are present at an early stage.

My final question is for Ms Turner. Has the orchestra applied or made a submission on music being part of the school curriculum to the Department of Education and Skills? For example, Sing Out With Strings could be part of the new revised junior certificate curriculum.

Mr. Declan Mallon

I am not sure what the Senator asked me.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Just a comment, please.

Mr. Declan Mallon

The best comment I can make on process is to reference Patrick Kavanagh who believed in his younger years that art had redemptive qualities. As he got older he believed that it had redemptive qualities only for those that made it. That is an important definition. He demarcated the difference between the receiver of a work of art and its maker. In a participatory process we try to concentrate on the fact that one is part of the making of the art. Not everybody becomes an artist at the end of the process but that is a different argument. We try to create a civic aesthetics base that can take place anywhere. It could be in a community hall or a school classroom where people begin to interplay with the idea of their own creativity. That sounds grand but it is something that people do on a regular basis. Everybody had composed a tune in their head or written a poem but hid it behind their desk so as not to let anybody read it. Our project encourages the process to continue and formalises it in some way. The committee could do worse than integrate the arts more solidly into education and it is essential to do so at the start of education. If the committee can influence that then it must consider doing so.

The Minister for Education and Skills has spoken about a focus on mathematics which is essential. Unfortunately, I have heard anecdotal comments that a lot of drama programmes have been dropped as a result. The two hours that were dedicated to drama have been dropped or halved to allow schools to focus on mathematics. A shift in thinking would be appropriate. Recently, I learned of a man called Krister Shalm at the University of Waterloo, Canada, who uses the lindy hop dance to explain the workings of quantum mechanics. If he can use art and art processes to explain his subject can we not do the same to explain mathematical equations? The arts can be a tool and do a lot of work for us in that context.

The arts are a cultural expression. I shall quote Ms Maureen Gaffney who made an interesting remark at the beginning of the report when she stated: "The arts are a product of our culture." The immense variety of cultural perspective within the so-called disadvantaged is incredible. I know of artists like Mr. Phelim Cannon, with whom I am collaborating at present, recognise and see that perspective and have responded by creating a new contemporary way of working and developing arts. We should embrace and explore this exciting development because the so-called disadvantaged have responses that we never dreamed of because we were too conventional in our thinking. They have plenty more to explore.

Mr. John Kelly

We started the programme because we felt that even though the orchestra is recognised as world class it must be relevant in the community in which it lives. I was privileged to grow up in a household where my father was a music teacher and composer and I started playing music at the age of two or three and worked as a professional musician from the age of nine years. All that time relationships, confidence and self-esteem were built up but I could not have expressed it. Subsequently I performed in the first Irish Youth Orchestra in 1970 where people came from all over the island and different cultural backgrounds to perform music together. I realised then that music played a unique role in the personal development of people. It was only subsequently that I began to read about the brain research over the last 30 or 40 years, which shows that music plays a unique role in the physical development of the brain, helping children to develop their inventive skills through the development of neuro-pathways. At six months' gestation in the mother's womb, a child has a fully developed sense of hearing. When the baby is born, one can play Mozart or Bach for it. Much as one might like to read Juno and the Paycock for it, a child cannot relate to that, but music plays a role at that early age.

I realised that also from my own background. I left Ireland in 1973 to study abroad with no funding. I took a boat and train to London and got a job in a bar. I had been given a place to study at the Royal College of Music but I could not pay for it. I went for my first private lesson and the professor asked me why I was not coming to study as I had been given a place. I told him that I could not afford to pay for it as I did not have the money. He came back 20 minutes later and said: "Now we're going to give you a full scholarship. Have you any other excuse?" Had I not been playing music as a kid, I would not have had the courage to go when everybody was telling me that I could not go. The idea that I would get a job in a bar and go for private lessons was seen as a little bit maverick.

Today's research shows that if a parent starts playing music for a child when it is born, and teaching it music, by the time the child is four years old it will have perfect pitch - and that applies to every child. It is an extraordinary piece of research. People used to say "That guy's talented, but I can't sing". However, everybody can sing. It is just a question of having the opportunity at a certain age and time.

The Irish Chamber Orchestra's community engagement - the Sing Out With Strings programme - is one of the most important things we do. We have two strategies. One is to become a global brand representing Ireland as a cultural ambassador and facilitating our talent as a performance brand internationally to recognise the innovation and creativity that comes out of this country. The other side is to be a world leader in community engagement, using music as an instrument of social change. That is our passion. People like Kathleen Turner and her colleagues, who are phenomenally talented, have developed these programmes. The results we are seeing are extraordinary and they speak for themselves. As we monetise the research, it is only a matter of time before the Government realises that music should be at the core of every primary school curriculum.

Senator Fiach MacConghail

When will the results of monetising that research be available?

Mr. John Kelly

For people to take it seriously, we need to run the programme for another five years - that is, ten years in. We are already producing results. We are already seeing anecdotal evidence but we need to be able to produce it in such a way that policy-makers will take notice when I state that they will save billions of euro in justice, social services and health. That will take a little longer but there is research going on all over the world. We already know, for example, that children who take part in music programmes in America do not become young offenders. There is incredible research out there. Ms Turner was referring to research from Australia and Venezuela which shows the impact music has in areas of social disadvantage. It is just a question of having a little more time in our case in Ireland to be able to make that cohesive case, but we already know it is true. For proper standards of research to be applied, however, we need a little longer.

We have already sent some of our findings to the Department of Education and Skills. We are seeking to engage with the Minister, Deputy Quinn, with a view to ring-fencing some additional funding to enable us to follow on into secondary programmes and expand some of the existing programmes. This is a win-win situation for everybody.

Senator Fiach MacConghail

What is the annual cost of the Sing Out With Strings programme?

Ms Kathleen Turner

It is about €145,000 at the moment - that is with 300 children and providing weekly singing and songwriting workshops, three weekly violin lessons during school hours, two after-school orchestras and before-school lessons. In addition, there are two concerts per academic year with the Irish Chamber Orchestra, involving arrangements of the children's own music.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I apologise for being late, as I had another commitment. I thank the witnesses for their presentations which were really interesting. As a former county councillor, I very much understand the role that arts officers play at local authority level. The value they bring to local authorities has not been quantified to any great extent. I was interested to hear from Mr. Kelly about the type of research that is going on. From our recent meetings which focused on the role of local authorities in the arts, we have learned that there is so little research on the positive benefits that this small investment has brought about. Although the capital expenditure is high, if one examines individual projects it is clear that small sums of money are being invested in them, yet the benefits and savings are multiples of that figure. We must try to work out how we are going to pull all of this information together in order to have positive policy impacts thereafter.

I agree with the potential that county development boards have for artistic representation. We do need to address that deficiency. Last week, I raised a question for county managers about renaming arts officers as arts managers, for want of a better title. Arts officers are managing an arts brief in their local authorities. Such a change of title - perhaps to "director of arts" would give them added weight in local authorities. I would like to hear what the county managers think of that idea. I realise that within the local government system the label "manager" automatically links a person into another pay scale, but I would not let that put me off. We need to start thinking differently about arts officers.

How do county managers decide how many staff will be allocated to an arts office? Is it decided at local level or is it recommended through the Department? How does that work? As regards linking in with the Arts Council, it is a great idea to have somebody on the Arts Council board from the local authorities. Both bodies can learn a lot from each other, as well as contributing a lot to each other's thinking.

There were some great contributions earlier in the witnesses' presentations about opening out our thinking on the arts and the role they can play in so many facets of society. I am passionate about community arts. I have seen different projects at first hand where one can engage young people, whether at primary or secondary school level. Young people do not want to hang around street corners, they want to be actively engaged. If they can be engaged through the arts, I firmly believe that the outcomes will transform our society. I have seen kids participating in rock music and film schools, as well as in writing programmes. Such activities are fantastic for them. For example, the Anam Beo project in County Offaly is run on €30,000 which is incredible. It delivers something very positive to those involved, including people who never got an opportunity to participate at that level when they were younger because they were preoccupied with other more important things like creating our country.

We need to evaluate all these projects to see how they can become programmes that are delivered across society. I would like to hear the witnesses' thinking on how that can be done. That is the challenge. While we have many examples of best practice, we must get our heads together and think about how we can make this into something we can all enjoy at different levels of society.

I ask Mr. Harten to elaborate a little on the arts programme in the GAA club to which he referred. I would love to see the barrier one sometimes has between sports and the arts broken down. Being a sportsman does not mean one cannot have creative interests. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, is a prime example. We must try to move away from pigeon-holing people.

The primary school programme is fantastic. I hope it is not true that mathematics will take space where-----

Chairman

I believe Mr. Mallon's reference in that regard was to the restructuring of the secondary school curriculum to impact not only on music and drama but also history and geography. His comments are supported by facts.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

Such a change would constitute a loss.

The hard-wiring of the brain was mentioned. If I am not mistaken, music and mathematics are linked. l am not a brain surgeon or an expert on the brain, but I read somewhere that there was a reason some musicians made great mathematicians and vice versa. I understand one of the universities in the United States, possibly Princeton, includes drama in all classes, whether engineering, architecture or other subjects, because it stimulates creative thinking. We have a great deal to learn in this regard. While we need to do research here, we should draw on international research and use it as a basis for moving forward. The challenge facing arts managers is to think about how this could be achieved and how it could be married at local level.

Mr. Pat Dowling

I thank the Deputy for her comments. While I can only speak for Limerick City Council, it does not matter what title one gives the arts officer. It has been necessary for a long time to strengthen and enhance the arts service in local authorities. The Deputy asked about staffing. She is looking at our arts staff which consists of Ms Deegan. We use internships and other programmes to try to enhance our arts service as we have staffing and resource issues. What we achieve in the arts is achieved with limited resources. The arts office and the local authority mediate between all the arts organisations, including the Irish Chamber Orchestra. Pressure can be applied from above and at local level because there is always an issue of mixing the resources of a local authority when deciding on what one will spend money. If more and more is driven from the top, by which I mean the Arts Council and the Department, it will assist our case.

On the issue of research, there is an absence of systematic evaluation of impacts, especially in the context of social inclusion. If this debate can achieve one outcome, it is to agree on the need to undertake systematic research which focuses not only on how it can be cost efficient to provide an arts programme in a school but also on the positive impacts the arts have on society in general. There is definitely something that can be done in this area.

Mr. Kelly spoke to me before the meeting about the impact on a school of the Irish Chamber Orchestra programme. It was not that the kids were learning to play the fiddle or learning music but that some of the children no longer had a problem with coming to school. This was interesting to note. The impacts are, therefore, important.

As regards the Arts Council, we wait until the end of February every year to find out what allocation we will receive from it. Rather than local authorities wondering whether funding will increase or decrease every year, it would be preferable if the Arts Council worked with them as a strategic player.

Mr. Brian Harten

On Mattock Rangers GAA Club which is based in Collon in mid-County Louth, we had a programme of ten residencies over ten years the primary aim of which was to go into communities in which there had not been strategic arts interventions or projects. One of the areas we considered was the small town of Collon which did not have an amateur drama group or much else in the way of cultural activity but which had a very strong GAA club. I met the club committee and its full membership on a number occasions and explained that if they wished, we could work together to create a residency, namely, a writer in residence. This caused a little confusion because members believed someone would be parachuted in to write the history of the club. The purpose of the residency was to enable people involved in the GAA to express their feelings about themselves, the GAA and their community. With support from the Arts Council, we contracted a writer, Síofra O'Donovan, to work with the club for six months. She was in contact with every single member of the club.

What was most important about the project was that it gave affirmation and weight to those who were active behind the scenes in GAA clubs. For example, Ms O'Donovan contacted many of the ladies involved in the club who made sandwiches for training or matches. What we ended up with was a cohort of people who were very closely involved with Mattock Rangers GAA Club but who were not visible within it. Ms O'Donovan worked with them in creative writing workshops which they loved. After the residency concluded, she was asked by Ardee branch library to do more creative writing workshops and ended up working with six writing workshop groups around County Louth. It was lovely to see the six month residency programme grow and move beyond the original programme. While this is a good story, one of the problems with the project is that everything collapses when it finishes. This is a problem with which everyone present will be familiar and one which is very difficult to combat.

Mr. Conn Murray

On issues such as staffing, we have to face reality. As I noted, the loss of 8,000 local government staff has had a direct impact on all services and front lines. As Deputy Nash will recall, Louth County Council had three arts officers not too long ago. It now has one and one support officer. The second reality we are facing is to determine how we will strengthen the arts service. Titles do not make a difference. This is about how we manage the arts service and the question of who does this is ultimately irrelevant. Adding the title of "Manager" would create another problem, rather than increasing the focus on the system.

What we have is our structure on the ground. Additional groups are being created continuously which increases competition for a very small pot of money. The councils will be forced to disburse what little funds they have across a larger number of groups in the arts community. We need to restructure how we promote the arts in the community and then decide how we will distribute funding and what projects in the relevant programmes will be funded by either the Arts Council or local authorities. We need a fundamental rethink of the current structure.

Chairman

I will ask members to raise supplementary questions. To give our guests an overall picture of the joint committee's perspective, if one was to ask a layperson which Departments he or she believed had a relationship with the arts, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would probably be the last one mentioned, despite it being perhaps the largest funder of the arts in the country. As it comes within the aegis of the committee's responsibilities, members are hoping to ensure greater cohesion in its approach and a higher level of assistance to local authorities. For instance, the Department does not have a single individual who provides an overall analysis for local authority members.

In addition, one has vocational education committees, the Health Service Executive and agencies other than the Arts Council feeding into the arts at local level. The idea of county development boards acting as a conduit through which all the other players can create cohesion is a good one which demonstrates forward thinking on the part of local authorities. This is of considerable assistance to the joint committee's deliberations.

The percentage of moneys spent on arts by local authorities has been a controversial programme. It has been very profitable for those who melt down bronze, but over the years it has been tarred with a brush that it probably does not deserve. Where do the witnesses from the councils see that going? Would they like to see greater flexibility such as that which exists in music and drama?

Listening to Ms Turner this afternoon brought me back to my previous experience. I worked as a literacy organiser with the City of Cork VEC and the job brought me into many prisons. I met artists in residence in prisons such as John Spillane, whom I knew when he was nobody. He went on to greater things and I went on to something else.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

The Chairman will not sing and dance for a living.

Chairman

I do. Both of us worked in Spike Island and in Cork Prison together. People like the late Séamus Creagh and Noel Shine worked in Cork Prison. There was a documentary about some prisoner who worked with Brian Maguire. I saw Brian in action when he was in Spike Island and it was amazing to watch him engage with prisoners. He engaged with this lad who was very aggressive, but who is now working as a full-time assistant to Brian. That is absolutely incredible. Ms Turner spoke about crime as being one of the bullet points the Irish Chamber Orchestra is examining. Have Ms Turner and her colleagues considered prison work?

I was reminded by Mr. Mallon of Howard Gardner and multiple intelligences. I used to teach that stuff. There is a direct correlation between music and maths. When I was in that field, we used to assist people to develop their mathematics skills by encouraging them to get involved with music. As Deputy Corcoran Kennedy was saying earlier, I would be concerned about restricting the curriculum at the pre-junior cycle level.

The representatives from Upstate Theatre and the Irish Chamber Orchestra are talking at the moment about developing stronger partnerships and strategic alliances. Where do they see those alliances and partnerships coming from? These things have to create a synergy that do not add to the greater cost and must have an outcome that is of benefit to what the witnesses do primarily, but also has a broader benefit.

Ms Sheila Deegan

When the 1% for art was brought in originally, it was like a windfall for arts officers. It was money that we did not have before. It has been used in various ways. It has been used for traditional, commemorative and memorial-type work, but it has also worked in a community context. It is important to try to maintain it at some level. The restrictions under it are not that restrictive. It comes through the transportation and infrastructure department, so it provides quite a resource for the arts office. I would encourage it to be maintained.

The local authority arts officers have made recommendations to changes in the guidelines, which-----

Chairman

It is not that the structure would be changed, rather the guidelines and the flexibilities within it. In what areas would Ms Deegan look for greater flexibility or changes in the guidelines?

Ms Sheila Deegan

We have suggested that the arts officer be more involved, although for me, the transportation and infrastructure department is a valuable resource because they can manage the project. The arts officers' association has a recommendation of guidelines which we can supply to the committee.

Chairman

Thank you.

Mr. Brian Harten

It has been a wonderful boost to local authorities and to communities within the county. We had a development in Louth where we commissioned more than 50 pieces. We have moved away from creating large, iconic pieces that are dotted around the county, to a situation where we are now looking for artists to engage in a much more meaningful way with established communities, be they school communities or older people's groups. There is that flexibility within the scheme at the moment to allow us to do that. I think there will be a move away from that iconographic bronze-based roadside sculpture, not least because it has proved very attractive to people of a certain temperament who like to steal things. We have now arrived at a situation where a more fruitful engagement is happening, and I welcome that change. It is something we are happy to do in County Louth.

Ms Kathleen Turner

We have never been involved in prison work during my time in the orchestra. That is not to say it is not something we would look at, but if we were going into that, it is a very specific set of skills. I am currently working with primary school-age children, which involves a very specific set of skills, and prison work would mean a new round of continuous professional development, just like it was for musicians who were sent to work in a health care setting, which was another recent project. We could certainly look at it.

I spend most of my time in the school classroom, and strategic partnerships would be with community groups. They would not cost more but would add value. They included working with the young mothers group, the Southill area centre and the homework clubs. We found that some kids were coming into school tired and were not making it through their music lesson. This was because they were not having breakfast, so one of our schools organised a breakfast club on its own. We would be thinking of partnerships like that.

Would it be okay to mention some practical suggestions for performing in the classroom?

Chairman

I will ask you to summarise in a moment and you can do it then.

Ms Kathleen Turner

Perfect.

Chairman

I call on Senator Mac Conghail to speak before the witnesses wrap up.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Looking at the Limerick City Council presentation by Mr. Dowling, I see a figure of €599,500 for the budget between the grants and the wages that the council provides. How much of that is funded by the Arts Council, excluding capital expenditure? We are asking this of every council representative who comes in here in order that we can get some kind of overview on what is missing. The Chairman is quite right in this. We want to look at the overall research and analysis of how the arts are funded, directly or indirectly. I would like to ask the same question of Mr. Murray. If they do not have this information now, perhaps they could send it to the committee. We are already getting it from Offaly and Mayo county councils whose representatives came to us last week.

Mr. Pat Dowling

Our total allocation from the Arts Council in 2012 in €170,000. A total of €120,000 goes to our municipal gallery, the Limerick City Gallery of Art, and €50,000 goes to the arts office. Obviously, additional money is matched to that. This is the total State aid for the running of-----

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

The funding of the gallery comes out of the grant. Is that right?

Ms Sheila Deegan

It comes from the second line, dealing with annual arts budgets, wages and operations.

Mr. Pat Dowling

That comes to €442,000.

Mr. Conn Murray

Our total budget is approximately €1 million and it comes from the three authorities in Louth. The actual support from the Arts Council comes to €37,500.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for appearing before us and now invite them to make their concluding comments.

Ms Kathleen Turner

I would recommend continuous professional development for professional artists at an organisational level, including in the Irish Chamber Orchestra. This would ensure musicians are equipped to work in different environments such as schools, prisons and health care settings and would also assist in the creation of avenues for employment and enable musicians to work in partnership with organisations and schools. There should also be stronger support for teachers to work in partnership with artists. As I mentioned earlier, it is difficult for primary school teachers in particular to deliver a broad curriculum and to fit in additional activities.

Reference was made earlier to a model of practice in this area. In this regard, there is an excellent model in England entitled Sing Up. It is a national singing programme which is being delivered as part of its policy on music and includes a singing leaders programme and an on-line resource for teachers entitled, singup.org, which is free of charge. Under this programme, singing leaders work with local arts officers in primary and secondary schools throughout the country.

On a broader level, we need to evaluate the teaching of music and the arts in general in schools. It is stated in the recommendations on literacy and numeracy that while music and drama are considered important they are ultimately less vital. What could be more vital and what opens up the remainder of the curriculum?

Mr. Conn Murray

We welcome the thrust of where the joint committee is going in terms of having a centralised approach from the parent Department, which will give greater focus to the level of spend, analysis and impact at local level. This ties in with our thinking in terms of CDB.

Ms Sheila Deegan

We are all agreed today that the arts are a primary way of experiencing things. As the arts officers have shown, we are now reaching into hospitals and the youth and education areas. Given we are expanding in this way, it is essential we are resourced and supported be it through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government or another Department.

Mr. Brian Harten

Deputy Troy asked earlier for some practical ways in which the joint committee can be helped. We work with community development, youth and social workers. Perhaps as part of their professional development and training they could be introduced, by way of coming on site with projects, to the benefits of the arts as a tool for social inclusion. This would make our job much easier in getting the message across at ground level.

Chairman

The joint committee has invited the Graffiti Theatre Company, which is one of the agencies at the forefront of engagement with community development projects and so on, to appear before it.

Mr. Pat Dowling

I agree with Mr. Murray on the role of the county manager vis-à-vis the Department. It is important that is clarified. In terms of research, we undertook an analysis of the number of local authorities which use the word “culture” as part of their management structure and found that only 16 of the 34 do so. Culture and arts must be embedded. Perhaps this could be addressed by way of the proposed reform of local government. County managers could be designated a director of culture, which includes arts, for their area. That would be an interesting way of progressing this.

Chairman

Does Mr. Dowling believe heritage should remain separate or included in that proposal?

Mr. Pat Dowling

In my view, it is part of culture. Culture is all-embracing.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Culture would include heritage, language and so on.

Mr. Pat Dowling

In the case of Limerick, it would include sport.

Chairman

I thank the delegations for their engagement with the committee. This is the second of a series of meetings on this issue. The delegations are more than welcome to forward any further information, observations or acknowledgements they may have at a later date and to attend in the Visitors Gallery at further proceedings or to watch them on-line. I thank the delegations for their input and ideas.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

Do the delegations believe elected Members are 100% supportive of what is happening in the arts or that further engagement is necessary? This is a good news story.

Mr. Pat Dowling

They are fully engaged.

Mr. Conn Murray

Given the tightness of current budget lines, the fact that the funding remains in place demonstrates the leadership necessary. Elected Members are fully engaged.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Kelly, Ms Turner, Mr. Mallon, Mr. Dowling, Ms Deegan, Mr. Murray, Ms Woods and Mr. Harten for assisting us in our deliberations today.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. sine die.