Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Mar 2023

Architects of the Good Friday Agreement (Resumed): Lord Empey

The joint committee met in private session until 1.32 p.m.

Apologies have been received from Senator Frances Black and Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh. Today, we continue our meetings on our Architects of the Good Friday Agreement project. On behalf of our committee, I welcome Lord Empey. Lord Empey was a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly from 1998 to 2011. He is a former Northern Ireland Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and was leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, UUP, from 2005 to 2010. During the multi-year talks that led to the Belfast Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement, Lord Empey acted as the senior UUP negotiator. I am delighted to welcome Lord Empey. I thank him for agreeing to come before this committee.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter should be given, and they should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person or entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on Lord Empey to make his opening statement. After it, if he is happy, we will rotate questions between the representatives of the different parties. The exchange will be as relaxed and as informal as we can make it. Lord Empey is very welcome. We are delighted to have him. He has the floor.

Lord Empey

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators. I had been planning to attend in person, but for domestic reasons that did not prove to be possible. I will make a few opening comments, and I think we will all benefit from questions and answers as that is the best way to tease out issues and I certainly welcome any questions from members.

Looking back, 25 years is a long time in one sense, but, in another, it is not that long. The agreement has been regarded, certainly internationally, as very successful and something of an example. Many of us over the years have been asked to speak to groups from different parts of the world in order to explain to them how we reached agreement. It is in the news just today for the wrong reasons. About 18 months ago, I spoke to a group of Georgians who were obviously having difficulties in their country. We have seen some of the outworking of that in the past few days. I have spoken to people in Thailand. Members have spoken to groups in the Middle East. Of course, we know that there is no shortage of problems around the world. Many people certainly seem to feel that it is an example in so far as the agreement has survived. If you look even at the very crude figures for deaths and injuries in the 25 years before the agreement and in the 25 years after, while far from perfect, as we have seen even in the past ten days or so, nevertheless I do take a degree of pride in the fact that there are so many people on this island and, indeed, elsewhere alive today who would otherwise have been in an early grave. If the agreement has done nothing else, it has freed a younger generation from the straitjackets of violence, injury and destruction that my generation and others would have grown up experiencing.

The agreement has gone a long way to settling some of the very difficult relationships, not only on the island but between the islands. Of course, we are always aware of interest shown by our American cousins, who played a significant role in helping us get to the agreement in 1998. It would not be possible to have a discussion on this subject without giving our thanks and appreciation to Senator George Mitchell. I find George to be incredible. He has the patience of Job and put up with us for well over two years. In that context, I refer to the histrionics, arguments, disagreements, boycotts and, in some cases, abuse. He, having had the experience in the United States Senate as a leader on one side of the aisle, understood that to get an agreement that there is no point in having one side of the agreement flat on the canvas, so to speak. He understood that both the participants all need to be able to stand up in front of their respective constituencies and be able to recommend, and deliver, on the agreement. His legal background also was of great assistance to us. It would not be appropriate to have this discussion without making those points about George, who was going through some significant personal issues during the talks.

His sacrifice and that of his colleagues, who formed the panel that looked after us during that talks period, constituted a significant contribution to the process.

Of course, it was not simply the two years of the initial process that led to the agreement. Many years of discussions went on before that, from the mid-1980s through the early 1990s, spanning different Governments in London and Dublin. It was not just a two-year period of intense negotiations; it spread out well beyond that. There was one point in the early 1990s - I think it was during one of the discussions in Dublin Castle - when we almost got an agreement. I recall it being the difference between the words "could" and "would". One morning, we were requesting that the Irish Government delegation make a statement that it would change Articles 2 and 3. Pádraig Flynn was the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time. Albert Reynolds had just come in as Taoiseach. Mr. Flynn went away at lunchtime, came back and was not able to do that. He was prepared to say that the Government could do it, but not that it would do it. I rather suspect that had we got agreement that day, we could have settled it. I think that was in about 1991. I might be wrong, but that is the way life goes.

The agreement we are commemorating today and in the coming weeks, is not the agreement we negotiated and about which we had a referendum on both sides of the Border. The strand 1 element of that agreement has been changed, very detrimentally. I made this point at the recent British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly in Belfast on Monday, when former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern was present. I refer to the mechanism that was used and negotiated to identify who should be First Minister and deputy First Minister. In the initial Good Friday Agreement, those persons were to be identified by the largest party in the largest designation and the largest party in the second-largest designation going forward to the assembly on a joint resolution that had to be agreed with cross-community consent. The purpose of that was to demonstrate the partnership model at the core of how we envisaged the internal affairs of Northern Ireland would be run. It was giving political, public and legal expression to that partnership, the message being that one side could not run without the other and they were partners. Both had their hands on the steering wheel. Yes, it is awkward and clumsy from a purely governmental point of view but, nevertheless, it demonstrated that the partnership was at the core. Some parties did not like that.

In subsequent years, coming up to the St. Andrews Agreement, the Blair Government decided to enter negotiations with, ironically, the two parties that did not negotiate strand 1, namely, the DUP and Sinn Féin. The Blair Government did a deal with those parties, without the rest of us who had done the original deal, and changed the law in 2006-07. The net effect of that was that the assembly no longer requires a cross-community vote to appoint the First Minister and deputy First Minister. It is done on a first-past-the-post basis whereby whichever party is the largest, irrespective of its designation, provides the First Minister. The irony upon ironies of this is that Michelle O'Neill would be eligible to be First Minister if the Assembly was operating. Had the rules that were negotiated and ratified by referendum in 1998 been left alone, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson would have been eligible to be First Minister. If that is not being hoist with one's own petard, I do not know what is.

The point I am making is that every election from 2006 onwards was fought by the DUP on the basis that if one did not vote for "me", that is, Ian Paisley, one would get Sinn Féin and Martin McGuinness. That meant we were trapped in the sectarian trenches, unable to break free from them. I had hoped, as had many of my interlocutors, when we were conducting the original negotiations that, over time, we could have seen politics develop more on the people's view on economic divisions and things of that nature, to become slightly more normal. The change in 2006-07, which was done behind our backs, was a major mistake. It is one of the key reasons we are in such a mess today.

Nevertheless and notwithstanding this, despite its flaws - and, some might say, unfinished business - the agreement was a seminal moment. Although some people, sadly, still have not learned the lesson, it has proved conclusively that there is a political way forward for dealing with problems, however complex. Indeed, when we have been looking at the recent Brexit and protocol negotiations, I have often said to myself that if we were able to handle what we were dealing with 25 years ago, surely, it is not beyond people's ability to deal with the matters pertaining to Brexit and its related downstream consequences.

Overall, the agreement has stood the test of time fairly well. A school teacher might write "could do better" on the sheet, and it would be hard to disagree with that, but there are many people on this island who are alive and well who otherwise would not be. We have young people now who have no grasp or experience, whatsoever, of what it meant to be living and growing up in those unfortunate days. Unfortunately, there is a small number of people who have not learned that lesson and who have been issuing disgraceful threats in the past few days, and threatening the families of serving police officers. I cannot think of anything worse. We have also seen a number of incidents in Omagh and other places but, overall, we can take pride in the fact we did something that continues to matter. The question is whether we can finish the job we started, because we still have some road to travel.

May I say how much we respect Lord Empey's contribution and that of his party's former leader, David Trimble, in signing the agreement. At the core of that, is a recognition of one's right to be British is recognised in the future, no matter what the situation becomes with regard to whatever new proposal or votes might happen. It is important to have Lord Empey here, as a member of the unionist community. We respect that community's history and traditions and we in the South have to work together with Lord Emery and other people of the unionist persuasion, to find and continue the peaceful process which has been so successful.

Senator Blaney is the first speaker for Fianna Fáil.

Lord Empey is very welcome in joining us here today. I am delighted to see him with us as probably the last contributor to this series in relation to the architects of the Good Friday Agreement. At the outset, it is really important we put on record the contribution of Lord Empey, his then leader David Trimble, who sadly is no longer with us, and his party in what they did in achieving peace on this island and achieving that peace deal. As a matter of fact, they stuck their collective necks out through their leader and in a way, jeopardised their own party for the good of peace on the island. I do not think his contribution to peace on this island has been well enough remarked upon. It has not got enough acknowledgment over the years. He has done this island a great service and we thank him deeply for that. I first met Lord Empey in 2009 in Stormont with people like Michael Mates, Seymour Crawford and a number of others, in relation to unionist participation and the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. He was very forthright and very easy to deal with. Thankfully, the unionist members have been taking part in that body every since, as it moves from strength to strength. This piece of work was conceived in tandem with the many discussions now about how this island moves forward from a Government perspective on a shared basis, from all our perspectives, from border polls to citizens' assemblies. We in the Fianna Fáil party, and members of the Fine Gael party who will speak for themselves, were particularly keen on this piece of work because I believe we do not know enough of the past and what happened during those couple of decades when all these negotiations were taking place. They are really important because we lost so much ground since 1998. We have lost so much in relation to the relationships and the different strands and we need to learn what the personal relationships were, how strong they were and the meaning they had in achieving the agreement. Maybe before I go on to anything else, will Lord Empey give us his thoughts on the basis of the agreements he had with people in whom, prior to 1998 - prior to the 1990s even - trust would have been so low? Here he was, taking major new steps and having an international agreement under the auspices of George Mitchell.

Lord Empey

The Senator goes to the heart of it in the sense that the run-up to the mid-1990s has to be remembered and the fact that we had been going through two and half decades of terrorist activity at that time. That obviously has a huge impact on political relationships. People were losing friends. We lost quite a number of very prominent elected party members. Rev. Robert Bradford was obviously one but there were many others who were killed and injured such as councillors, Assembly members and so on. We must remember that there were interactions at local government. I was in local government for many years and councillors were there from all parties; that was the case from the early 1980s. It was not friendship but you knew people as they progressed further up their respective parties. It was not the case that there was no communication but it was very strained and could sometimes get to breaking point. Having been through all of that, and I think of the time around the Enniskillen bombing and so on, I was a member of the Belfast City Council and there were enormous tensions at subsequent meetings. It was only really in the mid-1990s that we came up with the idea that we could try to work on economic issues together in local government. We certainly did that in Belfast. That gave everybody the opportunity to at least do something positive for their constituents without any political issues to confront them. Everybody wanted to do something to improve the lot of their constituents but which did not require any significant political sacrifices or arguments over wider national issues. That was one mechanism I found helped lay the foundations for at least the ability to recognise there was at least one area of common ground upon which we could build. Sadly, that is the area we have largely neglected since. There has not been as much emphasis on that as I think there could have been. If we move forward to the time of devolution, in the posts that are held in the Government, I had the opportunity to establish InterTradeIreland, with my Dublin counterpart, and we also established Tourism Ireland with another Minister. Those were bodies that worked quite well.

We also did things that went outside the framework of the cross-Border bodies. I did a lot of work on energy. We did the South-North gas pipeline, which was quite a big deal, and the electricity interconnector with then Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O'Rourke. There were things we could do that were in our mutual interests and which did not have a political baggage with them. Who does not want a gas supply? Who does not want an electricity supply that is reliable and affordable? I rather suspect that if we spent a lot more time on that sort of thing, the other issues with which we keep poking on another's eyes out, should perhaps take a bit of a back seat.

Lord Empey mentioned the Omagh bombing. Could I ask him about that briefly? How difficult a period was the seven years of decommissioning and what consequences did it have for him and his party?

Lord Empey

It was a nightmare. We were under enormous pressure, which was understandable. The clear understandings were that things would move faster than they did and that allowed those opponents of the agreement to gain ground at our expense. Perhaps they have not made as use of the ground as they might have done but nevertheless it created enormous difficulties, tensions, and pressure. It is a shame things did not move more quickly. The Senator mentioned Omagh in particular. That was in the period when the First Minister and the deputy First Minister had been identified. The Omagh bombing was a few months later and turned out to be the worse incident of the whole Troubles in terms of the loss of life. Very sadly, that time and some of its wonderful people are back in the spotlight again, once again for the wrong reasons, which has re-traumatised many of the people who were recovering for what had happened in 1998. Many of them have been re-traumatised and that is a shame.

Like my colleagues, Senator Blaney and the Cathaoirleach, I welcome Lord Empey to our committee.

I also want to put on record our appreciation of the work of Lord Empey and his colleagues in the Ulster Unionist Party.

I am glad Lord Empey mentioned the role of councillors prior to 1998. I remember my late party colleague, the late Senator Paddy McGowan in Donegal who, in every political conversation within our parliamentary party, brought up the need for cross-Border co-operation. Lord Empey's colleague in Fermanagh, Bertie Kerr, was a great advocate at the same time for co-operation between Fermanagh and Cavan. Lord Empey would have heard me speak in Stormont at the weekend where I mentioned the political courage showed by David Trimble when he signed the agreement, while facing fierce criticism from within his own party. This country and further afield owes him a debt of gratitude. At that time, we were fortunate that in the run up to 1998, there were other political giants such as the late John Hume and the late Seamus Mallon. They all showed great political courage, leadership and vision.

Lord Empey mentioned the changes with the St. Andrews Agreement following on from the endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement in referendums North and South. Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern mentioned the other day that in the Good Friday Agreement, provision is made for changes. It is a living document. Changes are provided for. However, he cautioned against the idea of trying to introduce changes at the moment until the Assembly and Executive are restored. Hopefully, this will not be too far away because we all know that for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland and of everyone on this island, we want the Assembly and Executive restored and the North-South Ministerial Council meeting as well. I remember working with Lord Empey in plenary sessions of the North-South Ministerial Council. I always knew that he was very progressive in the area of trade and investment. Again, it showed us what could be done when we work together. Thankfully, since 1998, the all-Ireland economy has grown so much and there is so much more to be achieved by having institutions back up and running. Would Lord Empey caution against the idea of trying to introduce changes to the governance structures or requirements regarding the formation of the Executive prior to it being back up and running? Hopefully, that will happen as soon as possible.

Lord Empey

The short answer to the Deputy's question is that I agree with the sentiments expressed by Bertie Ahern at Stormont on Monday. We must remember that this is an all-party agreement as well as an agreement between the two Governments. The changes that have been made to it were done not involving all parties but only some parties, which is against the spirit of the agreement.

There are so many complications in it that if you start picking at things, you get unintended consequences. This is what has already happened. No agreement can remain static forever. It does not have to. It has the capacity to change, which is built into it, but I agree that to open up a Pandora's box now regarding how the Executive should be constructed or how Stormont could be run would take us down a blind alley we would never get out of. It would take years and we would have arguments over everything. You would open up the whole thing and everything would be on the table. It would be a mistake. We should concentrate on trying to get it running and delivering for people in the middle of a cost-of-living catastrophe for many. I do not believe we should start mucking around with it at this stage. We should operate it to the best of our abilities. Once it is going, we can look at and talk about things. The Assembly can set up committees. We can do all sorts of things between the parties and where necessary, between the governments but opening all of that up again would be a fatal mistake. I certainly agree with Bertie Ahern on that.

Deputy Feighan and Senator Currie are next. I will not pick one or the other. Deputy Feighan has his hand up.

Senator Currie can go ahead.

I thank Lord Empey, who is a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly committee A alongside me. I have enjoyed getting to know him and working with him on our reports. I want to bring him back to the negotiations. My other questions concern the present. Regarding the North-South strand and Lord Empey's remarks on Monday about the executive function, I am familiar with Sunningdale and the Council of Ireland architecture in the 1970s. Can he tell me more about the reaction to the initial proposal? We have ended up with a certain amount of co-operation but not a significant amount. The reaction to that is a good starting point.

Lord Empey

I am very happy to be a member of the committee under the chairmanship of the Senator. Before the Good Friday Agreement was signed, a draft came out the previous weekend. It was the first time that Senator Mitchell had put something on paper and sent it round to us. Part of that included proposals for North-South bodies, which were always in the mix. There is no issue with that. A series of areas were listed, some of which my colleagues felt were too wide and too many, but that was not the key issue for me. The issue for me was the proposal was that those bodies would have executive powers over their specific areas of responsibility over the island as a whole and, therefore, would not be, as is currently the position, responsible to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Dáil. It struck me that this meant that when you allocated those particular subject matters, whatever they happened to be, and put them together be they four, five or six, what you had in essence was an all-island government. That was contrary to what we had been negotiating with regard to the constitutional issues. It was one of those areas where, coming as it did at a very late stage, it shocked a number of us. When we saw that paper, it was obvious to me that we were never going to agree to that. We did not have any internal arguments about it because everybody was on the same page. It was obvious to us that we were not going to be able to do it and did not want to do it. We did not have issues in principle with North and South working together but we did have issues about handing over executive powers from the Oireachtas and the Northern Ireland Assembly to a third party, in terms of a North-South body, whereby that body could exercise executive authority throughout the island when the Assembly and the Houses of the Oireachtas could not. That in essence was the problem.

I am looking at an exchange between my late father and Mary O'Rourke at the time about Lord Empey's initial meetings with her back in 1999. My father had obviously been pressing her on areas of co-operation. They met about energy. He talked about how great it was that they met for discussions and said "long may that continue and perhaps we will soon reach the stage where nobody will pay much attention to these meetings."

Of course, we know it has not ended up like that. Over the past few years we have had very few North-South ministerial meetings. In Lord Empey's view, what is the appetite for strengthening the North-South relationship? He talks about people being stuck in trenches in strand 1, but arguably they are also stuck in trenches in strand 2. It is really frustrating for people who believe in the possible positive impact of North-South co-operation, for it to always be seen through the constitutional lens as opposed to the practical benefits it could bring about. Where does Lord Empey see that appetite at the moment? He was Minister for Enterprise, so the all-island economy is an important part of this.

Lord Empey

The overarching rule envelope in which we operate is that all of the different strands and elements of the agreement are supposed to be working in parallel, and not in a one on, one off, one working and others not working fashion. It only works if it all works. Recently, therefore, the profile of North-South co-operation through the different organisations, of which there are six, has become extremely low. As I have said, I was involved with InterTradeIreland and Tourism Ireland. Both have functioned pretty well, and when they were at meetings they were doing a lot of work. A lot of preparatory work went into them. There is still huge potential. There is no difficulty with the principle of working the institutions and getting them to deliver. Over time, there is no reason one cannot look at the areas being covered to see if they need amendment as things change. That is, of course, perfectly true. However, even if there is no North-South body that does not prevent North-South co-operation. As the Senator has pointed out we have done quite a bit on energy. When I took another job in employment and learning we did stuff although there were no formal North-South bodies. That did not stop us co-operating with universities on higher education issues. One cannot co-operate if only one party is at the table and the others are closed down. The fact that there have been so many interruptions to the operation of the institutions is, in and of itself, an issue. I do not think that is an obstacle. One needs to be able to prove that the institutions are sitting and working. In recent years they sadly have not been. We are sitting here, and while they go on and do their job as best they can, they do not have any meaningful ministerial direction.

On that subject, I will ask Lord Empey what may be a tricky question. MLAs have had their salaries cut by 14,000 because strand 1 is not operating. We have clearly stated there is no hierarchy between the strands. Should there be cuts for people who do not engage with strand 2?

Lord Empey

The way it works is that the Executive sees all papers relative to the different North-South bodies. After that reports are made periodically to the Assembly in Belfast about meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council and so on. The only people from Northern Ireland who populate the bodies are MLAs. They have had their salaries reduced anyway. That was done on previous occasions. There is no separate salary stream relative to the North-South bodies. In any event, I have to say that politicians by and large are not driven by having their salaries cut. Bigger issues are dominating it. I suspect that for some of them it is almost a badge of honour to have their salaries cut.

I thank the witness.

I am delighted to meet Lord Empey again, and I look forward to working with him and the British-Irish Council on the Good Friday Agreement. I will raise a few issues during my remaining time. On the amendment to Articles 2 and 3, Lord Empey has said that in 1991 there was a difference between could and would. That is an interesting observation. Speaking as a voice of unionism what are his views on calls for a border poll? Second, after 30 years of conflict does Lord Empey think nationalism and unionism could have done anything differently before the Good Friday Agreement that would have averted 30 years of bloodshed?

Lord Empey

I will answer the last point first. I do not think anybody would say we could not have done things better. Perhaps we did things too late. Of course, we were under pressure from elements that did not respect the democratic process or who derived their authority not from the democratic process, but from force. Looking back, there is no question we missed opportunities to be quicker and more fleet of foot. I think one would be hard pressed to find somebody to say we did everything perfectly. I do not think that is possible. On the subject of a border poll, it is in the agreement because the rationale to provide a mechanism by which, if circumstances arose that people wanted to change the constitutional position it could be done democratically. That would, therefore, remove the necessity for physical force. These things are always exceptionally difficult to judge. As a general rule of thumb, the rationale was that if there were evidence that opinion had changed to such an extent that a change was likely to occur, the Secretary of State of the day would initiate a border poll. One then asks what the issues are, and how is it to be done? We have elections, opinion polls and all sorts of things like that, which can give an indication of the direction of travel. There could be resolutions in the Assembly and in local government, and all sorts of things. I cannot see that any of those thresholds have been crossed. We are still reeling from the effects of the last poll, with regard to the European Union and the United Kingdom's decision to leave it. I can think of nothing more likely to destabilise us than to open up another front at this time. I think if the Brexit referendum has taught us nothing else, it is that there needs to be preparation. If one was to simply jump into something like that the downstream consequences could be extremely destabilising. I have little doubt they would be. On the subject of things I would have done differently, the big mistake we made in the negotiations, certainly with regard to strand 1, were the titles we attributed to the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Having a deputy First Minister with a small "d" was such a nit-picking difference that it implied a hierarchy. I have held the office and I know it is not a hierarchy but we were conscious at the time that Scotland was getting devolution and that it had a First Minister and we were conscious of that and looking at that aspect as well. In retrospect, the naming of people in that way was probably wrong.

As Lord Empey said, the first-past-the-post system was a mistake regarding the changing of the Good Friday Agreement. I wish Lord Empey well.

Some of our members are having difficulty hearing and receiving the reception remotely. I do not know if Ms Gildernew and Mr. Brady are still having those problems.

Mr. Chris Hazzard

I thank Lord Empey for his comments and I apologise that I missed his opening statement because I was late in. If he has answered my questions already, I apologise and I will pass on to one of my colleagues, but I wanted to ask him two questions. First, it appears from polls and it is seen in anecdotal evidence and different coverage that there is waning support within the wider unionist community for the Good Friday Agreement. Some polls suggest that, today, more unionists would not vote for it than would. Why is that the case?

Second, I would like to ask about what seems to be the intractable issue of transitioning loyalist paramilitaries off the stage. Why is it that, 25 years later, our communities still have to deal with the scourge of these criminal gangs? What needs to be done to help ensure more young lives are not ruined by these forces in our community?

Lord Empey

There was never a large majority of unionists in favour of the Good Friday Agreement in the first place. There were about 274,000 votes against the agreement, and while they would not all have been unionists, the vast majority of them would have been and that is a substantial cohort. We reckon we had a majority of unionists in favour of the Good Friday Agreement but it was not a big majority. I agree with the assumption that support has waned, and the reason for that is that people see the protocol, as it currently operates, as changing the status of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. There is a problem, therefore. The letter of the agreement may not have been breached with regard to this changing of status, but as Mr. Hazzard knows, the choice was either to join a united Ireland or stay in the UK and people read into this that they would not get their status changed without the principle of consent. While the letter of the agreement may not have been broken, the spirit of it probably has been broken and that is one of the reasons for the support waning, added to the fact that Stormont has been so erratic in its operation. That has also made people think about whether Stormont is waste of time and if these people cannot get their act together and so on. Those are the principal reasons support for the Good Friday Agreement has waned among unionists. Stormont has been out of operation for four of the past five years so people have lost faith in it.

There is supposed to be a policy for dealing with paramilitaries but the absence of the institutions means it is not really being driven politically. There is a huge gap there and this is a gap that has been around for a while. The other fundamental point I would make is that, if there is a political vacuum, we know from past experience it will be filled. Elements of that can be seen to have appeared in recent weeks in particular, and these people are only too willing to fill that vacuum. That is a major mistake.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

It is good to see Lord Empey again and I will follow on from that point. Lord Empey said a lot of unionists were not for the Good Friday Agreement and I would say that a lot of republicans were not dying about it either. I remember being at a meeting in Toomebridge where Mitchel McLaughlin told us to read the Good Friday Agreement and then read it again. There was a concerted effort by the Sinn Féin leadership to sell the agreement. We all knew how hard it had been to get it together and to fruition and how it was so important to make it work. Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and the entire Sinn Féin leadership went on the road and we did meetings with hundreds of people, including at kitchen tables. We brought the African National Congress over to help talk to people who were having difficulties and we took the Good Friday Agreement and embraced it. We recognised it was not by any means a republican document but that there was enough in there for everybody to make it work. There was positive leadership in republicanism at that time to bring people along.

Lord Empey talked about a political vacuum and how people will operate within one. I was on the Executive between 2007 and 2011 and Michael McGimpsey was on it, along with me, as Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. He and I had a good working relationship, especially in the North-South Ministerial Council meetings where I was the accompanying Minister. During that period there was no vacuum but there was still this loyalist paramilitary control in their communities. Bronagh Hinds was before this committee last week and she was scathing about the fact that, 25 years later, there is still this control in loyalist communities. Women are trying hard to keep their families together and to keep their children and grandchildren off drugs. They are trying to work through poverty, inequality and all the issues that exist within loyalist communities, yet the loyalist paramilitaries still have those communities by the throat. Does Lord Empey see that there has maybe been a lack of positive leadership within unionism and loyalism to bring people along and show them that life post the Good Friday Agreement is better than it was beforehand and that the peace is something we all hold precious and dear and that we all need to work towards? It is a wee bit like marriage where all parties within the marriage need to work at it to keep it going. I have been on the Executive and I have been working with other unionist politicians who are not putting the effort into that relationship and who are not really trying to bring everybody with them. I am interested in Lord Empey's perspective 25 years later. If there had been a different perspective and point of view back in 1998, would we be where we are today? Would those communities, particularly loyalist working-class women, be dealing with the stuff they currently have to deal with?

Lord Empey

Paramilitarism has been a scourge for a long time and it has not been dealt with as effectively as it should have been. After 25 years, organisations still exist and rackets and criminality are still there.

It is being augmented by people trafficking and various other smuggling activities that have been going on for years, for example, in bogus veterinary medicines. The absence of functioning institutions that can co-operate between London, Dublin and Belfast on criminal matters clearly is not helping to have a consistent and persistent policy of suppressing those organisations.

As to whether people could have been more robust, there is no answer that to that. One cannot say "No", as people could do better, but these organisations have existed throughout the community for many years. One can see it on my own patch, with people running around in Range Rovers and wearing gold chains. The dogs in the street know where they are getting the money from. It is obvious to everyone and people are not stupid.

It is probably fair to say that the police service has been less effective in dealing with these matters but, as the committee will be well aware, the PSNI is understrength. After the Patten report, we were promised 7,500 full-time constables. We do not have that. We are not even close to it. At the rate of depletion of the police, the PSNI will be falling behind further over the next year due to financial reasons. We need a strong and effective police service to tackle this type of activity, but ours is under considerable strain, is underfunded and is below the level that we were promised. All of these factors combined move us into a position where there has not been persistent pressure on these organisations.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Lord Empey. I have enjoyed and appreciated his evidence. I have appreciated his analysis and input, particularly in the Good Friday years and since, but also over the seven years of the Brexit process. His and the Ulster Unionists' foresight in thinking through how some of it was going to play out has been vindicated. While we have been at slight variance in emphasis and proposed solutions at different points, they have engaged in a credible and constructive way when the prevailing wind meant it would have been easy to throw their hands up and say "No" to everything, as others have done. It has not gone unnoticed.

Colleagues have asked many interesting questions, which I will not repeat. Lord Empey made a sensible point and reflected some of what Mr. Bertie Ahern has said about institutional reform. I see the logic of that and have cautioned against anything other than keyhole surgery, as it were. There is a real danger of opening up, particularly from people who would like to unpick large parts of the agreement. The House of Lords examined some of the proposals that my colleague, Mr. Colum Eastwood, and I made in respect of the Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act in Westminster. Are there changes around matters such as restoring the mechanisms for electing first ministers that can be done within the framework of the agreement and for which there is consensus? If so, what is the best way to try to deliver them?

Lord Empey

Just over a year ago, there was a proposal in parliament to restore double jobbing.

Ms Claire Hanna

Yes.

Lord Empey

It was going to be an Act of parliament that was effectively designed around one individual. It indicated that the government in London had a very narrow perspective of what has been happening here.

Regarding reform, my personal opinion is that, because it is an all-party agreement, it should not have been interfered with without all-party agreement and, therefore, the starting point is what we negotiated and what was ratified by the people. As far as I am concerned, if you are going to move away from that – nothing can be set in stone forever – then you have to do it in a proper, constructive way instead of as part of a backstairs deal. There are plenty of backstairs deals, of which the double jobbing was one example. It was done to try to help one particular individual and one particular party to manage its internal affairs. The fact that a department of state would have as its mentality that this was a good thing to do is the most worrying aspect of the situation. It is more worrying than the proposed measure itself. We managed to see it off and it had to be withdrawn, but that took a great deal of effort that should never have been made at all. Time was wasted on it.

Like Mr. Ahern said on Monday, I take the view that the institutions should be made to work and, if we need to alter them, let us do it as we go along. However, if people are going to start a major "Good Friday Agreement Mk. II", they should not forget that we elected a Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, out of which the negotiating teams were drawn so that they would have an electoral mandate. There was then a complicated numerical mechanism as to how decisions were made and thresholds had to be reached. If we went back into now, I do not know how we would ever see the end of it. Given the level of poverty and the pressures that people are under, particularly young people after Covid, having had large parts of their school and student experiences wiped out – this still has many implications that we have not got our heads around yet – I cannot think of anything that would do more damage at this stage than if we started drilling down into what to do and how to form this or that committee, getting on to the constitutional issues, opening up the Irish Constitution, etc. Let us work with what we have and try to fix it as we go along, if that is required.

We can have all the rules, regulations and so forth in the world, but they will not make that much difference unless there is the political will to do it and to work for the betterment of our constituents. People have their long-term constitutional aspirations – there is nothing wrong with that; we all have them and we are entitled to them – but to start another head-to-head on the matter at the moment would be an extremely bad move.

Ms Claire Hanna

I agree with much of that sentiment and the premise that it can be made to work. The Good Friday Agreement is not making parties keep the executive down. This is about attitudes rather than standing orders necessarily, although it is a reality that people in the region are not getting good government.

I do not sense that there is going to be a massive change in that. There is an addiction veto within the body politic and some of that will have to be addressed by regulation and standing orders. Although, working back from what is already in the agreement, for example, in regard to the First Minister, there is a way to restore it while keeping the integrity of what people voted for in 1998 that maybe does not have to break all the eggs that one would have to break otherwise.

With regard to what is already there, it is still my view that there are many under-utilised parts of the agreement. Hopefully, some of what is in the Windsor Framework will help to smooth the concerns of those who have genuine concerns around limiting the sea border and the so-called democratic deficit. Is there anything else in strands 2 or 3 that we should be using better to navigate our way through the challenges we face at the moment about dealing with Brexit or other mechanisms?

Lord Empey

I am not going to go into too much detail on the Windsor Framework insofar as my colleagues are looking at it at the moment. It is very complicated. Some important documents are still not even available yet. That being said, however, we have had a proposal on the table for four years, even before the protocol was introduced, to deal with the downstream consequences of Brexit. By way of an example, we went to see the former Prime Minister David Cameron in his office in No. 10 Downing Street in February 2016. Our purpose in going there was to point out that there were two possible outcomes in a referendum: that people on the island were used to referendums; and that such referendums were frequently fought on issues that were not necessarily on the ballot, but that there were other issues that persuade them. Our main reason for going was to see what his plan was for dealing with us in the event that the leave side won. David Cameron was very confident that he had a fantastic economic argument and that he would not lose. We persisted, nevertheless, and came away from that meeting clear in our minds that there was no plan. They had not worked it out, and so it has been.

In January 2019, we proposed that the institutions of the agreement could be utilised to assist us either by amending or creating another cross-Border body. This was on the assumption that Whitehall would devolve some responsibility to Stormont for the oversight of all of this and that the new or amended North-South body could have an educational role in explaining what the regulations were in the different markets to different companies. It was thought the same would happen in Great Britain because a lot of smaller businesses over there have stopped trading with us. In addition, if people saw any activity they were very concerned about or felt there was something untoward, they could report it to the relevant authorities. This would go, in some way, to dilute the democratic deficit because the assembly would be directly involved effectively under licence from London to oversee the operation of the processes here.

They have now come up with the Windsor Framework, and we are looking into all of that, but the fact remains that things were very badly negotiated. We went out of our way to try to warn people about what would happen. Sadly, not enough people were listening to us. Now we are left in this kind of limbo. It is not good for anybody because businesses need certainty. They do not have certainty. People tell us that we should have taken the best of both worlds. It was very hard to take the best of both worlds if one cannot even take the best of the world one is in. We are a long way from that. Only the functioning of the institutions in a meaningful way will fix that. The institutions, North-South and east-west, could well be used to assist us very much in dealing with these problems. I hope people will pay some attention to that.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Lord Empey. I appreciate his response.

We will go back to Sinn Féin now. I call Deputy Tully. Ms Gildernew or Mr. Brady may come in afterwards.

I will come in with a quick question. My comrades may wish to come in after me.

I wish Lord Empey a good afternoon. It is nice to meet him, albeit virtually. He has discussed how some unionists voted for the Good Friday Agreement. The truth can be said that many unionists voted against Brexit and wanted to remain in the EU. Unionist businesses are part of a growing all-Ireland economy and many are publicly involved in debate around constitutional change. There are other discussions happening on the ground. The point is often made in this committee that civic society is ahead of political society in many ways when it comes to discussing the future and constitutional change. Many unionists are open-minded and relaxed about change and about relationships across the island. They are willing to discuss change. I am not saying they agree with it, but they are willing to discuss change. My party and myself are in favour of a border poll but not without the proper preparation and discussion, and that needs to include everyone. Does unionist leadership have a responsibility to encourage debate about constitutional change and the future of our island?

Lord Empey

As a unionist, I believe there is hardly much point in me sitting down with people to discuss another constitutional configuration because it does not really make an awful lot of sense, just as if I were to ask the Deputy to sit down with me and discuss the reunification of the United Kingdom. I suspect she might have some difficulty with that. The truth is that we have mutually exclusive views on the fundamental geometry of these islands. The point about the Good Friday Agreement was that it found a mechanism to manage that in a way that permits everybody to pursue routine day-to-day matters on a fundamental understanding that there is a democratic mechanism built into the agreement for change. In other words, I am not going to sit down with the Deputy and discuss how we bring about a united Ireland. I think I should be honest with her. The concept of joining two pieces of land together and saying, "That's a nation", is somewhat outdated now. The point is that we have a mechanism to co-operate together. I did a lot of it when I was in government and at different departments. We never had any difficulties working together. When we had mutual issues of benefit, we could take them. None of us can predict the future and what will happen. If the agreement is adopted, future generations have a mechanism at their disposal, if they want to use it. We should get on and do what we can together to help one another prosper.

The Deputy mentioned the all-island economy. The reason InterTradeIreland was formed was to accelerate the volume of North-South activity. It has not accelerated very much. Brexit and the protocol situation that has arisen has changed things somewhat. I refer to the value of exports. I use this term because the Central Statistics Office in Cork separates trade with Great Britain and trade with Northern Ireland.

Exports from the Republic to Northern Ireland were equivalent to 1.8% of the total of the Republic's exports. The other way around, with imports into the Republic from Northern Ireland as opposed to Great Britain, it was roughly the same. Of course, it is a greater slice of Northern Ireland's cake because it is smaller but nevertheless after all those years, and I am going up to about 2017, it is still very small, relatively speaking. InterTradeIreland was formed to grow that. While things have now changed because of the circumstances surrounding Brexit and the protocol, it may result in some significant growth. However, it has been relatively modest and confined. The bulk of it is agrifood and services are excluded from it. It is mostly agrifood and the services are fairly minimal. Even with the medicine situation, the European Union changed its legislation because there was a tradition of certain countries in the EU receiving most of their medication from Great Britain. That included the Republic and places like Malta, Cyprus and so on. Even then, the number of medical devices and medicines going from the Republic into Northern Ireland is very small and has not really changed much in recent years. There is a lot of slack there and there is a lot of potential for growth. It seems bizarre that you can almost see another market across the field but there are, relatively speaking, fairly modest levels of trade. I always ask people across the water in England what percentage of trade they think we are doing North and South and they come up with all sorts of figures like 40% or 50%. It is bonkers. The actual figure is very small. There is potential there for growth, which would be to our mutual benefit. That seems to me an area where people could genuinely co-operate and make some headway.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Lord Empey for the presentation. Following on from Deputy Tully's question about a border poll, Lord Empey mentioned joining two pieces of land. In the context of reunification, that is a very simplistic view, with respect. He also talked about the meeting with David Cameron in February 2016, prior to the Brexit poll. It seems very clear from what he is saying that there was little or no preparation done for that. It seems from speaking to people afterwards that they really did not know what they were voting for. Thankfully, in the North people voted to remain and that created a democratic deficit because we were all lumped into the British context. Lord Empey talked about a border poll being destabilising so soon after the Brexit poll. However, I think preparation has to be done and that has to include everybody. I deal with and speak to a lot of people from a unionist persuasion almost daily in my constituency office. It seems to me that sometimes civic unionism is ahead of political unionism. I am not sure if Lord Empey would agree or disagree with that.

Reading his comments around the petition of concern, I think Lord Empey accepts that it can be a useful device if used properly but that it has been abused. The whole idea of the petition of concern is to protect minorities and that simply has not happened in many cases. Does he think the petition of concern can be reviewed and dealt with to be more effective in protecting minorities, as it was originally meant to do? I thank him again for his presentation.

Lord Empey

I will deal with the last point first. The petition of concern is a very important piece of the architecture of the Good Friday Agreement. It was deliberately put in so if one section of the community felt its interests were being seriously affected, there would be a mechanism in there to protect it. In the first Executive, while there may not have been a written rule, where at least two members made clear their opposition to a particular proposal, the proposal would not go forward. In the second Executive, that is the 2007-11 one, votes occurred where decisions are taken on a majority vote. That is not something I was happy seeing.

I agree that the petition of concern mechanism has been abused. I looked at some figures some years ago. My party signed two petitions. Another party signed 39. Indeed, it was once used to protect a committee chairman from having a vote of no confidence put on the Order Paper. That was way beyond the scope of anything we envisaged for the petition of concern. It was abused. If there are ways in which minorities can be protected, I think one would have to take a fairly open mind on that. However, like all of these things, if you start meddling with one wee bit here, it can have unintended consequences somewhere else. In principle, I would not object to the concept of looking at it but I am just saying that, like everything in life, there is always something. You cannot design something that is incapable of being misused. You can design the best car in the world, but if you have a rubbish driver, there is a limit to what you can do. In principle, I would have an issue with looking at it. Minorities have to be protected. We got the big picture right in that, if there was something of constitutional significance happening, the petition of concern was there for somebody to put their foot down and say they were not going with it. The principle of it is a good principle.

With regard to border poll, you first have to establish that there is an appetite for it. Mr. Brady talked about the difference between civic unionism and others. There always will be a difference between those of us who are active in politics, and that applies in Mr. Brady's tradition as well as mine. There are people who are dedicated and enthusiastic and are devoting their lives to something and there are other people on the periphery who are living their lives and may have a bit of interest now and again. There is always a broad range of interests. That is true in most walks of life. I just do not at the moment see that this is a priority in most people's lives. I cannot even imagine what sort of position we would be in if we ended up in the middle of such an operation right now. I cannot even think of what it would do to us. If evidence emerges that there is a volume of people likely to represent at least 50% wanting to see change, there is a mechanism to test that. As I said, I do not think we are there.

Mr. Brady spoke about preparation. I think the onus is on those who wish to succeed in their operation to prepare. They cannot expect people who take a different view to sit down and help them prepare their own execution, politically speaking.

It is not a priority for most families at the present moment as they are sitting in cold houses with empty fridges. If we spent some more time on that issue, I believe relationships would improve, and there is evidence that has happened.

Mr. Mickey Brady

Reasonable people are sitting in cold houses etc. because of Tory austerity which has been forced upon us.

Lord Empey

The amount of spending that is happening in the public sector, despite the rhetoric about austerity from the George Osborne era, so to speak, is that, looking at the figures, public sector spending has actually gone up. Northern Ireland’s slice of it has been doing as well as anywhere else. What has happened is that the Government has cut at things which has actually slowed economic growth. That has been part of the cause of people finding themselves in difficulties. The era of austerity and cutting back on public spending is long past by now.

Mr. Mickey Brady

In a recent survey, the disposable income per household in Britain was £210 and here in the North it was £98. That is a very significant disparity.

Lord Empey

That is not a new phenomenon and has been there for a very long time. The problem with our economy is that our private sector is far too small and is not generating enough wealth and that 70% of our GDP is Government spending. That is not a sustainable position. If we were concentrating on how we can build our trade and business sector and co-operate in doing that, that would be one way, perhaps, in which those disposable income figures could be increased.

I thank Lord Empey very much for his constructive engagement with the committee. If I can pick him up on his contribution, the most important thing he has said was one of the final things, which is that we work together to improve our trade and develop our economies by successfully continuing the interactions which people like him started with tourism, trade and so on. The other emphasis I noted, if I have picked him up correctly, is in respect of the North-South bodies, which are not working at the moment. Those can be the forums, if that is agreed, and if we can find ways that do not challenge the constitutional concerns which unionists may have. If we can work together to grow our economy, increase our jobs, provide better opportunities for young people and if we do that successfully for the next 25 years, we will be doing very well.

I will return to Mickey Brady, if I may. One thing that struck me about different things North and South, and he can correct me if I am wrong on this, is that the old age pension in the North is approximately £149 and in the South here it is about €258, so there is a very significant difference there. There is a great deal of convergence which we need in many different areas. Does Lord Empey wish to make a final comment?

Lord Empey

If the Chairman is still chairing this committee in 25 years, I will be very happy to accept his invitation to return.

Perhaps we can try to do the easy things first. It is not difficult to co-operate on economics. There is nobody or no public representatives I am aware of who are not prepared currently, by and large, to work together on economic issues. Surely there is merit in saying we can do something positive for our respective constituents. The agreement dealt with the constitutional issue, which removed the tension and the obstacles in the way of doing that. We have not exploited that.

Governments, unfortunately, in both capitals have messed around with the agreement because they wanted to try to tweak it to suit one particular group or another behind the backs of all of the rest of them. If the governments could do one thing it would be to stay out of it and to stop messing with it because the reason we are in a mess now, of course, is primarily Brexit related, and it is not a constitutional tension within the system of the Good Friday Agreement. It is because Brexit negotiations were so awful that we have ended up where we are. We do not yet know, as we are standing here today, how that is going to play out in the next few weeks. A point will come, however, when that becomes more clear.

I hope that, if we focus on using what we have to deliver what we can, there is always the scope to say that we did this successfully. We can do that and look at some other and additional areas. We can say we have done all we can in one area and we can move to another. There is an infinite amount of flexibility within the agreement if people are prepared to use it.

It seems to me that, for the next generations coming forward, looking at the choice between the type of community of those who shot the police officer in Omagh recently and made the threats, we must ask if we want that type of country or a country which has adhered to democratic standards. When we see the brutality that is unfolding in eastern Europe at the moment, that is something that most of us, I suspect, never thought we would see in our lifetimes. This should say to us in many respects that we are fortunate not to be living in that circumstance and that we have a way of doing things by using a democratic mechanism. We are under an obligation, after people have voted in a referendum, to deliver that. I have to say we are not doing that at the moment and the activities of governments over the years have not been particularly helpful.

That looks to the positive side of it where there is potential and I hope and pray we seize those opportunities and deliver on that potential. I thank the Chair and the committee very much for inviting me to its proceedings today.

I thank Lord Empey very much for attending. That concludes our public session. We will now adjourn to a private session of our meeting. I thank all in attendance.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.09 p.m. and adjourned at 3.18 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 23 March 2023.
Barr
Roinn