Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Sep 2023

Finance and Economics: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Ms Michelle Gildernew MP. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John Boyle, general secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. From the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, I welcome Mr. Owen Reidy, general secretary, and Mr. Justin McCamphill, president. Representing SIPTU is Mr. Gerry McCormack, deputy general secretary.

Today we are continuing our meetings on finance and economics and will discuss workers' rights, North and South. Our witnesses Mr. Reidy and Mr. McCormack have to go to another meeting at 10.45 a.m. I know it is not outside the front gates anyway, at least I hope so. We do not have a protest there today. I appreciate they have to go at that time and members will be conscious of that. On behalf of the committee, I thank them for their attendance.

Before we begin, I have to read a declaration. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings should be given and that they should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the person's or the entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on Mr. Reidy to make his opening statement, to be followed by Mr. Boyle, Mr. McCormack and Mr. McCamphill if he wishes, in that order.

Mr. Owen Reidy

I thank the Chair and committee members. We are delighted to be here. I thank them for the invitation to speak on this critical issue. I am accompanied by my colleague Mr. Justin McCamphill who is the President of ICTU. As members will be aware, ICTU is an all-island representative voice and body of workers. Through our 46 affiliate trade unions, we represent more than 750,000 workers in all parts of the economy across the island of Ireland. In Northern Ireland we represent slightly more than 200,000 workers from all communities. We are proud of the fact that we are truly a cross-community organisation. ICTU seeks to co-ordinate the collective voice of workers and the trade union movement in our engagement with the Irish Government, other political parties and stakeholders in the Republic of Ireland and with the Assembly and Executive, when they are operational, and all parts of civic life in Northern Ireland.

We campaigned vigorously against Brexit and, after the referendum, we advocated that should Brexit have to occur, it should reflect the narrowness of the vote and therefore be incredibly soft. Given that we represent workers on both sides of the Border, we are concerned about the prospect of greater divergence of workers’ rights and employment law in the two jurisdictions. Brexit, specifically the type of Brexit chosen by the UK Government, has created the context whereby discussion and debate about the possibility of constitutional change on the island of Ireland have come more to the fore in some quarters. As an all-island body with members and unions from a variety of different backgrounds, we believe such a debate must be as inclusive and open as possible. We believe the variety of perspectives workers have must be articulated and to the fore.

Historically, in the case of individual employment rights legislation, there has been a level of consistency in practice in the two jurisdictions. This has been because much of the individual employment rights legislative framework originated from a variety of EU directives when the UK, including Northern Ireland, was a member of the EU. Whether it be the Organisation of Working Time Act, health and safety legislation or other legislation, there has been a level of consistency regarding its general application over the years. This has not been the case when it comes to a range of collective or industrial relations issues, particularly relating to the organisation and operation of trade unions. Some of the Thatcher era anti-trade union legislation unfortunately remains on the Statute Book in Northern Ireland. Unlike in Wales and Scotland, in Northern Ireland employment rights are a devolved matter. However, in our experience successive Ministers for the Economy in Northern Ireland have shown little interest in focusing on the development and improvement of employment rights. Certainly, I suggest this has been the case in the past decade and it has been a missed opportunity.

The current UK Government has recently introduced draconian anti-trade union legislation, although, given the devolution of employment rights, it does not directly apply to Northern Ireland. However, as Northern Ireland is unfortunately outside the EU, new and progressive EU directives on workers’ rights, including, for example, the important adequate minimum wages directive, will not have a direct effect and will therefore not apply in Northern Ireland, unlike in the Republic of Ireland. If transposed properly by the Government, this directive will promote collective bargaining like never before and require the State to develop an action plan with the social partners to make access to collective bargaining and unions at sectoral level more readily available to all workers. It has the potential to significantly improve our industrial relations infrastructure and increase collective bargaining coverage, that is, the proportion of workers covered by a collective agreement. Therefore, the committee will see, when it comes to the industrial relations infrastructure, environment and legislation surrounding important individual employment rights, and indeed collective issues around workers’ rights and trade union rights, with the continued absence of the Executive, more divergence will inevitably occur. Of course, this is precisely the objective of those who have supported and encouraged the hardest Brexit possible.

As an all-island body, we are committed to pursuing improvements for workers in their individual employment rights and their collective industrial interests. We therefore seek the full and optimum transposition of the adequate minimum wages directive in the Republic of Ireland, along with the implementation of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, high-level group report on collective bargaining. In Northern Ireland we will be seeking the development of a comprehensive employment Bill that mirrors the directive, where possible, to seek to ensure that our members and all workers in Northern Ireland do not fall behind and to seek as much positive and progressive alignment of workers’ rights in the two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland as possible.

We note with interest the publication of the UK Labour Party policy paper, A New Deal for Working People, which will form part of its programme for government over the next period if the party is elected. Should the continued and unacceptable absence of an Assembly occur, workers in Northern Ireland will inevitably fall further behind when it comes to employment rights and workers' collective interests. This would be completely unacceptable.

Mr. John Boyle

A Chathaoirligh, agus a bhaill den choiste, gabhaim buíochas libh ar son Chumann Múinteoirí Éireann as an gcuireadh labhairt libh inniu. I shortened the written statement I sent to the committee in order to get to the key points.

In recent years, there has been a lot of collaboration between educators North and South. The 2022 report by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, A North-South Comparison Report of Education and Training Systems: Lessons for Policy, highlighted the need for closer co-operation in areas such as early school-leaving, special education, teacher well-being and socioeconomic disadvantage as there are glaring gaps between the approaches taken in the two jurisdictions. The Standing Conference on Teacher Education, North and South, ScoTENS, has fostered strong links between educators in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Middletown Centre for Autism, which is a North-South initiative, has brought great benefit and the funding associated with successive EU PEACE programmes has also been welcome.

Already this week, two very welcome North-South reports have been launched, one by Roinn An Taoisigh’s shared island unit and the ESRI, Student Mobility in Ireland and Northern Ireland, and another by Ulster University on education and Border communities, North and South. The INTO takes every opportunity to engage with North-South initiatives, which we believe have great potential to improve the education systems on this island. We also work closely with sister unions in the Northern Ireland Teachers’ Council, NITC, and the British and Irish Group of Teacher Unions, BIGTU. Regrettably, there has been no common approach to improving the terms and conditions of those who work in the education sectors, North and South. The INTO will continue to advocate for teachers to be given the best opportunities to have a proper work-life balance, so that the children and young people of this island can benefit from having teachers who are highly motivated, energised and satisfied in their workplaces.

We have also successfully campaigned for the rights of our students. In that regard, the ongoing use of academic selection is to the major detriment of social progression through education in Northern Ireland. We urge the committee to share our view on this issue for the sake of future generations of workers who attend Northern Ireland schools. Roinn An Taoisigh should establish a dedicated forum in the shared island unit to discuss education. In the context of constitutional change and a move towards a new Ireland, now is the time to examine the terms and conditions available to education workers and all workers in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so that, when the remaining key objectives of the Good Friday Agreement are being met, workers’ representatives will be strongly positioned to lead the way in proposing new, agreed terms and conditions for workers that fully reflect the needs and wishes of workers, including teachers.

The high-level consultations between education stakeholders in Northern Ireland on nine work streams which are designed to modernise the education system have been worthwhile and when the findings are implemented long-standing issues relating to teacher workload will be addressed. A similar engagement would be worth considering in the Republic of Ireland. As the only all-island teachers’ union, the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO, is acutely aware of the differences in conditions of service for teachers across this island. These differences are exemplified by transitions from each level of the education systems; the length of the school year; the expectations on teachers in the North flowing from the Jordanstown Agreement; the accountability agenda; school governance; teachers’ salaries and the length of the salary scales North and South; the different funding models for schools; as well as the approaches to special education and to supporting pupils and students who are impacted by educational disadvantage. While there are many differences highlighted here, one common factor between both jurisdictions is the level of workload on school leaders and teachers. This is something that needs to be addressed.

In any new and inclusive shared island all of these issues and more should be harmonised, merging the best of the education systems North and South in order to mould one great system for all who work and learn in our schools. Perhaps a move towards one teaching council for the whole island might be a good starting point. The INTO feels strongly that the movement of teachers pursuing employment on the island should not be restricted and that where opportunities present themselves, fully qualified teachers should be permitted access to jobs in schools on both sides of the Border. We have been engaging with the Teaching Council here to ensure that Northern Ireland registered teachers who apply for registration in the Republic are fast-tracked and pay the same application fee as our teachers registered in the Republic of Ireland. We also support the full registration without conditions of primary teachers who graduate in Northern Ireland with Gaeilge and we have urged the Department of Education to provide free courses for teachers from outside of the Republic of Ireland who are striving to achieve the Irish language requirement. We must ensure we dismantle any barriers that exist for teachers North and South to worthwhile travel and work anywhere on this island. There are many instances of our members working on both sides of the Border - and I am sure the Cathaoirleach is well aware of it from his own constituency - particularly those who chose to do part-time work and those who are working as substitute teachers and have not yet secured permanent or long-terms contracts. However, very few teachers who have permanent contacts cross the Border to work. This matter needs to be addressed urgently. As I said at the Irish Congress of Trade Union executive meeting yesterday, we may have to learn from the report on the students' mobility because if students are not mobile across the Border, when they go into their working lives the tone may already be set. Regrettably, so many more of our teachers are leaving the island to go to the UK and other jurisdictions.

Schools are currently grappling with recruitment and retention crises in both jurisdictions. In order to address these crises, we must make the teaching profession much more attractive on this island. The members of our union are deeply concerned about the number of younger teachers who have felt compelled to leave our shores due to the housing and cost-of-living crises. However, there are other reasons for their exodus, including massive class sizes and limited opportunities for career progression. Those who have been living and working abroad since new teachers’ salaries were slashed in the Republic a decade ago might hope to one day return to Ireland, but they will be pragmatic. They will not abandon leadership or management responsibilities, which they have overseas, or higher salaries and allowances in order to move home. A now 14-year moratorium on promotional posts in the Republic of Ireland schools, along with the gutting of allowances for additional qualifications and specialised work, has eroded vital career pathways in our schools. The restoration of these would incentivise teachers to remain here and act as an inducement for more teachers to return.

This week’s Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, report on third level student mobility within Ireland should also be interrogated. It behoves the authorities in both jurisdictions to provide sufficient teacher training places for the requirements of the education systems here, rather than forcing so many aspiring teachers to travel to England, Scotland and Wales to pursue initial teacher education courses.

Following Brexit, opportunities for Northern Ireland teachers’ professional development through various schemes funded by the European Union have been affected, and this includes the opportunities for students, although in terms of Brexit there was no diminution of terms and conditions for teachers within Northern Ireland; neither has there been any improvement. Some notable conditions available to teachers in the Republic include: the right to apply for a contract of indefinite duration from the beginning of the third year in work; the right to be redeployed when a permanent position is suppressed in a school; the building up of supplementary panel rights for teachers who do part-time and substitute work which gives them priority to permanent jobs; and leave and entitlements including breast-feeding breaks, domestic violence leave, which went through the Oireachtas recently, and parental-adoptive leave for same-sex couples. In fact, many of our members would argue that the draconian cuts to the education budget in the North, and the lengthy pay freeze they have been enduring, has seriously eroded their terms and conditions. The stark example of the disparity between Northern Ireland’s teachers' salaries and those in the Republic can be seen in the comparison between the starting salary of €41,385 for a primary teacher in the South and only €28,009 in the North; nearly a 50% difference.

The long absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly has angered our members who have resorted to taking industrial action in pursuit of a fair pay award and in opposition to the cuts imposed on public servants and public services. The British and Irish Governments must intervene quickly to end this impasse. We are also deeply concerned that the consistency and standardisation of individual employment and union rights of our members North and South which emanated from EU directives will not be a feature in the future. Although employment rights in Northern Ireland are devolved, regrettably it has been necessary for us to continuously highlight the failure of the Minister for Education and the Minister for the Economy to improve the employment rights of our members in Northern Ireland. We are determined to ensure improvements to our Republic of Ireland members’ employment rights and rights to representation by their union will be mirrored for our members in Northern Ireland in any new Ireland. We hope that this committee will support that position. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Boyle. I now call Mr. McCormack, who is the deputy general secretary of SIPTU.

Mr. Gerry McCormack

I thank members of the committee for the invitation to contribute the views of SIPTU, Ireland’s largest trade union which has members across both jurisdictions on the island.

Our members have fully supported the Good Friday Agreement since it was endorsed by referendums in May 1998 and have consistently argued for its full implementation and indeed for its potential to be realised as intended by the architects and those who voted for it in such large numbers North and South. As stated by my colleague from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, there is no question but that the decision of the UK to leave the EU in 2016 has posed significant challenges to our members and workers across the economy. It is always worth reminding ourselves that 56% of voters in the North voted to remain in the EU and many of us warned of the potential disruption to supply chains, trade, and employment in advance of the 2016 referendum. The trade union movement specifically warned of the challenges and divisions it would also cause for workers across the island. There is no doubt, however, that the Northern Ireland protocol, which is a product of Brexit and not of the Good Friday Agreement, and the subsequent Windsor Framework, have mitigated much of the threat to jobs and trade that could otherwise have resulted from the UK withdrawal from the EU. The current absence of a functioning executive and other institutions set up under the Good Friday Agreement has resulted in significant hardship for our members and working people across the North, not least in the provision of vital public services. The disruption of supply chains due to Brexit between the Republic of Ireland and the UK has caused job losses, not least in the retail and transportation sector, and has contributed in no small way to the withdrawal of some UK-based retailers from the Republic. It has also undoubtedly contributed to the cost-of-living crisis which has caused such hardship to working people over the past number of years. Migrant workers and others crossing the Border for work or business have also been affected by Brexit and related barriers to the free movement of labour. On the other hand, the development of the all-island economy has without question been boosted. Trade North and South, and vice versa, has increased exponentially, while trade routes from the island to Europe have been expanded and some sectors such as agrifood, compensated for the reduction of trade between the Republic and the UK.

As the ICTU general secretary stated in his opening remarks, Brexit has intensified the discussion on the prospect of constitutional change and referendums on unity in the not-too-distant future. SIPTU and the wider trade union movement have committed to engage in the necessary conversations, debate and preparation on what a new Ireland would mean and how workers can play a constructive part in its evolution. We are concerned about the possible divergence in the conditions of employment and the rights of workers between North and South that could emerge from the partial implementation of the adequate minimum wages directive proposed by the European Commission. In this regard, we endorse the view expressed here by the congress representatives that similar and comprehensive employment rights legislation should be introduced to ensure that workers in Northern Ireland enjoy the same benefits and protections.

Finally, I wish to express our support for the important work of this committee in protecting and advancing the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank everyone for their statements. By way of explanation, our members contribute by political party by rotation, so the questions will be from Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and so on. I will call on them as we go along.

One point strikes me. If the disparity between teachers' salaries North and South is such as it is, it must have huge implications both for those working in the North and wanting to work in the South. Are there issues around that in relation to Irish qualifications and things like that? Were we to look to a future of a united system, a united Ireland is what want, that must be a huge basic issue. It must apply in education but probably across the whole public sector?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

That is certainly an issue. In my day job, I represent teachers in Northern Ireland so obviously I work very closely with Mr. Boyle’s colleagues. We find there are pushes and pulls in terms of going to the South to work. We are finding a lot of our post-primary members are interested in work in the Republic of Ireland and many are making the move because of the difference in salaries. Many are reluctant to go to Dublin because of the accommodation issues. I do not believe there is as much movement at primary level. I think it is the language requirement that puts them off. The reality is it is a divided community in the North. One community, even without having learned too much Irish, will have had more exposure to it over the years where another, who might be starting from a zero baseline, would be put off. Of course that is something that would have to be considered if we are looking at a new Ireland.

Mr. John Boyle

I am glad the Cathaoirleach focused on that. We had a recent engagement with the leaders of the Teaching Council because we recognise that in a teacher supply crisis we need to be a bit more creative so one of the issues we discussed was the Gaeilge requirement. We are well aware there are many primary trained teachers coming out of St. Mary’s College in Belfast who have Gaeilge to a high standard. The Teaching Council will be considering a fast-tracking for those, should they wish to. It is not that we want to try to cajole all the teachers in Northern Ireland to come down here but we would like to give them the option. The bigger concern for the post-primary sector is there is not as much movement in terms of those issues. We feel that for the primary sector which we represent in the South - we represent both sectors in the North – that the creativity will be needed is that there are so many jobs in education that are not mainstream class teaching. These are obviously not filled at the moment because principals have to get a mainstream class teacher in the first instance or the parents will not be too happy, so unfortunately the vulnerable children are then suffering because there are not enough teachers in the rent-pressure areas to teach the vulnerable. In those classes, it is not as necessary to have as high a standard of Gaeilge when teaching English as an additional language, EAL, for example or special education. The Government should be laying on courses, not only for teachers from Northern Ireland, but any other teachers who are fully qualified from other jurisdictions. We have a really big concern that many teachers who were born and bred in Northern Ireland, and some from the Republic as well, are training in Aberystwyth, Aberdeen, Strawberry Hill and in various courses in England, Scotland and Wales. For example, in Scotland, the starting salary is £33,000, 20 miles across from Belfast, whereas it is only £24,000 in Northern Ireland. This is as a result of what the Tory Government is doing to the North at the moment. The Tory Government is obviously trying to freeze them out with the intention of trying to force certain parties back into the Assembly and it is workers who are suffering as a result. It is a big issue.

On the Gaeilge, we are open to creative solutions because the children have to get a teacher. The vulnerable children have to get teachers. If a teacher initially does not have Gaeilge but is given a pathway towards achieving it and a time limit of maybe three years that would be a better solution.

An Cathaoirleach

There is also the point that there are people from different communities in the North and if we want to work together, we have to make it open to all of them to work in both jurisdictions. We have to create a solution. I am a Gaeilgeoir and I speak it every day but I think it is important that for people who do not, it should not be a barrier to come down here or for us to go up there.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

There is an important point around the ESRI report on student mobility at university level. If Northern students are not coming South when they are 17, 18 or 19 to study then they will become more familiar with how the system works in England, Scotland and Wales than they ever will with the system here. If they are studying in the North or training in England or Wales, they will not see Gaeilge as a priority.

Mr. Owen Reidy

The Chair made a really good point. The pay disparity is right across the economy. The ESRI did a piece of work for the shared island unit. I do not want to misquote it but when it took everything into account, cost of living and all the various issues North and South, there is a pay disparity of about 30% right across the economy, public and private sector. We are seeing a lot of industrial action in Britain over the last few years and our affiliate unions in the North, particularly in the public service, are taking strike action today and tomorrow, and have been for the last year and will be over the coming months. You do not see that same level of industrial activity yet in the Republic of Ireland, partly because unions have been bargaining in the workplace in the private sector and we have had a public service pay agreement up to the end of December; who knows what will happen in the future. So there is that 30% differential. If there is to be a new Ireland, we have to insist that people must be harmonised up, not down. Those are factors that need to be considered.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will take it from there. The Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach had a meeting with the Central Bank, and the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council as well, yesterday. It was very obviously that people in this country have never worked so hard, and they are working really hard, but the rates of deprivation continue to rise. That is what we need to examine. That is why I want to commend everyone here and begin by thanking ICTU, the INTO and SIPTU for their outstanding leadership and determination to represent workers across the island irrespective of their political aspirations. It is hugely important. I want to commend them on upholding workers rights and on organising and defending the great strides that organised labour has achieved across the island. While we speak about all the things that need to be done, a lot has been achieved as well in representing 750,000 workers directly as well as many more thousands who support their vision but are not part of a union. It would not have happened without the single-minded approach of the ICTU, INTO, SIPTU and other trade unions. I also thank everyone for being here today and for bringing the trade union view to the constitutional debate about the future of Ireland. I am aware there is a campaigning group of trade unions who organise and take part in debates about the constitutional future. The groups here are ensuring that organised labour is not left behind and the views on workers' rights in the future of Ireland are a central part of the fabric of the debate.

The unions are crucial to the work this committee is doing in looking forward, preparing, being open and involving everybody in the conversation and the vision of what a new Ireland might look like for all of us, regardless of what constitutional preference people might have. They have foresight and connections with workers' rights across the island. We need to remember the workers we are trying to attract back from among the Irish diaspora all over the world. I know many teachers who are working in Dubai and in other parts of the Middle East who were trained here. We need to create opportunities for them to work across this island and to bring them back here to address some of the challenges we have.

From the unions' perspective the witnesses are right to highlight that Brexit has created the context whereby discussion and debate about the possibility of constitutional change on the island of Ireland has come more to the fore in some quarters. As outlined in their presentations, they are right in believing that such a debate should be as inclusive and open as possible.

I have a general question about workers' rights to start with. What changes could made to improve workers' rights now, North and South, which would make the transition to a new Ireland easier where workers' rights are legally upheld and permanently protected? I ask that broader question first and then I have a number of others.

Mr. Owen Reidy

I appreciate the Deputy's positive comments towards the trade union movement. Notwithstanding that the ESRI has identified a 30% differential between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, in this State 18% of workers are still on low pay, which is more than many other countries in Europe with which we would compare ourselves. We have a low-pay problem in the Republic of Ireland; the situation is just exacerbated in Northern Ireland.

Regarding the cross-community issue, there are people on picket lines today who vote for Sinn Féin, the DUP and everything in between, but the one thing that unites them is that they want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. We are very sensitive to and in tune with the fact that we represent people who are British, Northern Irish, Irish, a bit of all three, some of both and, crucially, international workers. If I may say so, I believe the trade union movement is quite unique on the island of Ireland in having that kind of breadth of inclusivity and it is something we want to protect.

There are a few things we would like to see. The adequate minimum wages directive is really more about collective bargaining. It is a very radical and progressive directive from Europe. It is probably the most progressive instrument, under Commissioner Schmit, to come in the last 20 years. Of course, it was fought for right across the European Union; it was not handed to us by Brussels. Gerry McCormack and I are due to meet the Minister, Deputy Coveney, later. The crucial issue is the Irish Government should not take a light-touch approach to its transposition and that it is implemented properly because the ambition there is to increase collective bargaining.

We know from academic studies in UCD that the demand and the desire of people to be in a union is very high. However, still to this day there is a constitutional institutional impediment in Ireland that if a worker wants to be in the union, it is in the gift of the employer. We need to change that balance and this directive can do that. What would we like to see? I see that Stephen Farry, MP, is online. He was the last progressive Minister in Northern Ireland who dealt with employment rights. Since then, no one has been interested. Since then, many of the Ministers for the economy would not even engage with us. That is tragic stuff; it is dysfunctional. We need proper social dialogue north of the Border where there is engagement with the trade union movement in a meaningful way and an employment Bill. Because employment rights are devolved, it can take the best elements of that directive to make sure the boat rises for workers in Northern Ireland. The current Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Green Party Government needs to seriously implement the directive on adequate minimum wages in the South. The way to deal with poverty is more collective bargaining for those who want it.

A study by the UCD academics Professor John Geary and Dr. Maria Belizón, entitled Union Voice in Ireland, found that 44% of workers in the Republic of Ireland who are not in a union wanted to be in a union. Crucially it found that 67% of 16- to 24-year-olds not in a union wanted to be in a union. We do not want conscripts; we want volunteers. The State legislative framework needs to change in order that those people who want to be in a union can be in one. If that happens, we can improve everybody's boat.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

When we were discussing taxation and welfare here, it came across strongly that there was a real opportunity here to create something that we never had an opportunity to create before on the island of Ireland since the setup of a system that was really underpinned by the inclusive values of everybody across the island. Is this also a real opportunity as well in terms of the comprehensive employment Bill and as Mr. Reidy rightly mentioned the adequate minimum wages directive and all that? Mr. Boyle also spoke about a single teaching council. All that creates an atmosphere where we could really examine what our values are and then to create a system that underpins all of that.

Mr. Owen Reidy

I will be brief because I am conscious my colleagues want to come in. That is possible but we just need to be conscious that people have a range of identities. Those identities are fluid and there is no one right answer; there are many right answers. That is why I think we are still the largest civil society group on both sides of the Border. We have that breadth because we are not seen as a nationalist congress of trade unions or a unionist congress of trade unions. By the way, if we ever end up there, shame on us because we will have lost something beautiful and special. There are a range of views in the trade union movement on constitutional change and irrespective of any such change, we must remain united.

Better workers' rights are not just good for workers. The OECD and the World Bank maintain they are good for business and for the economy. The tide has moved post the Covid pandemic to looking at having progressive collectivisation in order that we can deal with the challenges that we saw outside this building yesterday, which is regressive far-right populist collectivisation. The centre must hold and the State needs to adjust its legislative framework so workers who want to be in a union can be in a union.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Do any others want to speak to that? What strikes me from what Mr. Reidy said is that somebody from Cork should be guaranteed the same rights as somebody from Belfast and vice versa and that people living on the island should know that they have a certain set of rights.

Mr. John Boyle

I was at a very interesting event last Friday. It was the Irish Labour History Society's 50th anniversary conference and it had a series of events. I chaired a discussion on planning for a better education system on the island of Ireland. A former principal teacher, Lexie Scott from Ballymena, who was twice the president of the Ulster Teachers Union. One of the key issues was the diversity on the island nowadays and to make sure that in any future planning all faiths, beliefs and creeds and none would be accommodated. It was obviously drawing attention to the fact that we have a much more culturally diverse island at this point.

We were reflecting on the influence of the European Union on workers' rights and we were specifically discussing teachers. Now that part of the island is no longer in the Union, concern was expressed that the rights for workers in the South would continue to advance. For example, as I mentioned the Oireachtas recently passed Bills relating to adoptive leave where same-sex couples are now accommodated within the leave arrangements, which is very welcome. A few more Bills were passed and some are in the mix at the moment. For quite a while, we have been campaigning on reproductive health issues and for leave after pregnancy laws and so on. Were the Oireachtas to consider those and bring them forward, there is probably not the same momentum behind these things in the North particularly when there is no Assembly at the moment. All in all, the biggest concern is that with one part being outside the EU the rights would improve in one area and not in the other. We would certainly have a dream that whatever accommodation we come to politically, workers in north Antrim or in west Cork would have the same rights and entitlements, that they would have the same employment opportunities and that they could choose to move within the island rather than forcing people to move to another jurisdiction where they feel they would be looked after better.

It is complicated but I am glad for sure that the discussion is happening.

Mr. Gerry McCormack

I will speak a little about Brexit and its impact on our members. It is absolutely critical that the agreement, as intended, remains in place. I live in a Border constituency in which huge numbers of workers are employed in the agrifood industry. A lot of industry happens across the Border, particularly in the food industry, with pigs going in one direction and meat in the other. If that agreement is not fully implemented, it will have a huge impact on the economy of this country and, indeed, on the North as well. It is imperative that it remains in place and that the institutions are put back in place. Workers in the North are suffering big time as a result of those institutions not being in place. A UK study recently found that for those on the lowest incomes in the UK, their incomes have dropped by 5.5%, not since the referendum but since Brexit has started to be implemented. More interesting is that those on high levels of incomes have seen their incomes increase by 7.5%. If we want to know why there was a Brexit and why some people still want it to be there, those findings are part of the reason, as is racism and all the other stuff that was thrown at people during the referendum. It is critical for us as a union that the institutions are put back in place.

As my colleagues have said, we are having a debate within the trade union movement about constitutional change and the impact it will have. We want a new island and a new Ireland. We want people to be better paid and to have better conditions of employment. Collective bargaining is critical. It is the easiest way to distribute wealth across the economy. There is no doubt about that and the absence of it is a real problem. We hope the new legislation and new directive will assist us greatly, assuming the measures are implemented in the manner in which the directive intends they be done. The measures must then be extended to workers in Northern Ireland. A total of 30%-plus workers in the North are on low pay. It is a disaster really.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their contributions. There is nothing any of us could disagree with in their opening remarks. Mr. McCormack referred to the negatives from Brexit for UK workers. It is probably more sad than ironic that the areas where there was the greatest support for Brexit are the areas in which low incomes are most prevalent. The way in which people were misinformed, including by way of the messages put out by Mr. Johnson, Mr. Gove and others about membership of the EU, etc., has really come home to roost.

Running through all the comments and contributions today is a concern about the divergence in standards, the negatives of the lack of functioning institutions in Northern Ireland and the difficulties arising in the provision of public services there from the lack of local decision-making. I do not see how any of us can emphasise enough the impact of that day in and day out. This takes me back to many debates we had in the 2016 to 2020 Oireachtas. This committee and the foreign affairs committee had numerous visits at that time from representatives of parliamentary committees of other member states of the EU. There was very good engagement with committees of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Brexit committee of the House of Commons was chaired by Hilary Benn, who is now shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, for which I am thankful. Members of that committee were here with us on a number of occasions and we also met with them in the House of Commons. At that time, we were emphasising the concern that there would be a race to the bottom in regard to standards, particularly workers' rights. Brexit has not even been implemented and we have already seen the negatives in this regard. It is really worrying to consider, when all the protocols are implemented in respect of Brexit, how much more of an adverse impact it will have on the people working hard to earn a living.

In the context of constitutional change, Mr. McCormack remarked that we want to see the potential of the Good Friday Agreement realised. That is the first step on the way to achieving the constitutional change I and others want to see on this island. Sadly, we are far from that at the moment, particularly insofar as the institutions are not functioning.

We have talked about cross-Border mobility. The Cathaoirleach, Deputy Feighan and I represent Border counties. Visiting or driving past schools in my constituency, I see quite a number of cars with registrations that are not from this jurisdiction. I often think there is more mobility than may be reflected in our discussions. I accept that my observation is very unscientific. However, from my exchange with schools and my knowledge of the staff, both teachers and support staff, there seems to be a fair bit of mobility between North and South in both directions, but not enough. Mr. Boyle might comment on that. I heard two conflicting stories from students at St. Mary's University College, with one talking about the difficulty in taking up a teaching position here and the other telling a different story. I would like to know the reality. Where students qualify in Northern Ireland, there should be very minimal barriers put up to their taking a teaching position in this State. Obviously, they need to reach the standard in Irish and all of that. We all want to see that happening. St. Mary's University College achieves exceptionally well academically and also does exceptionally well in football. It has a lot of alumni who hold all-Ireland medals. Its success over the years is a credit to that small college.

Mr. Reidy talked about workers' rights and the fact the British Government has already introduced very draconian anti-trade union legislation. He also mentioned that successive ministers with responsibility for the economy and finance in Northern Ireland took no interest in workers' rights. It is very disappointing to hear that. Unlike in Wales and Scotland, this is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland. I take it that any of the people who held those ministerial posts could have repealed the Thatcher legislation that is on the Statute Book in Northern Ireland. Was that ever even considered by any party? Was it in any programme for Government in Northern Ireland? Is it a live issue now in the North from the perspective that the legislation is there and can be repealed if it is on the Statute Book? I presume there is no barrier to the Executive or the relevant minister repealing the legislation if he or she is so minded to do.

Mr. Owen Reidy

I thank Deputy Smith for his questions. I spent six years in our Belfast office as assistant general secretary to the ICTU. The level of engagement across Stormont was very good in some areas and, unfortunately, very bad in some areas. Part of the problem with the way the Executive is structured is that the nine Departments all operate in silos. It is an involuntary mandatory coalition. If there is a progressive minister, as we had with Stephen Farry, now an MP, when he was Minister for Employment and Learning and workers' rights were in his bailiwick, it is possible to get things done. If there is somebody who is not interested and will only deal with the other side of the labour market, that is, the business groups, no progress can be made. That has been a real problem.

If and when the assembly comes back, and it is in everybody's interest that it comes back, Northern Ireland clearly needs a reforming, progressive minister for the economy who will take workers' rights seriously and will deal with unions and employers evenly. It took a global pandemic for the minister for the economy to say it might be a good idea to talk to unions and employers. There is no forum for social dialogue in Northern Ireland. We have limited forums in this State that are not as good as they should be but at least we have the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, and other arrangements. Unfortunately, there is a level of dysfunction that has permeated for the past eight to ten years. When I talk to our colleagues in Wales TUC and the Scottish Trades Union Congress, they are envious that employment rights are devolved to Northern Ireland.

They would love that to be the case because they would love to do things with the Welsh Labour Party Government and the Scottish National Party, SNP, and Green Government in Scotland because those are centre-left governments that will engage. They would not have to be reliant on the Tory Government in Westminster, as they have been for the last 13 years. Nothing was stopping the Assembly from doing something on this, but it has not been done.

One of the things we are looking for and preparing is a progressive employment Bill that will mirror the best elements of some of the things we are doing in this jurisdiction. We have not brought them to fruition yet in this jurisdiction, and I hope the Government that Deputy Brendan Smith and the Cathaoirleach are a part of will take this directive seriously and not implement it in a light-touch way because this is a win-win scenario for everyone. There are roadblocks but they can be overcome. I do not think the trade union movement has been respected in the way it should be north of the Border by a number of Ministers for the Economy in recent times. There is a real imbalance in this regard. One of the Ministers for the Economy was meeting representatives of employer bodies every week. I think I met her when she was an MEP. That is dysfunctional. We probably have the least amount of social dialogue in Northern Ireland. It is comparable with Hungary and Poland, which are places we would not want to be comparing ourselves to. That includes England as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Mr. McCamphill like to contribute.? Please feel free to comment.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

A Private Members' Bill was brought forward and while it was well-intentioned, it did not get through the Assembly. Ultimately, we need a Minister to draft a comprehensive Bill that can go through the proper scrutiny of the Assembly. It would then be for the Assembly to vote on it. A lot of this will come down to which party ends up with that position. I hope, however, that the party that has mainly held that portfolio in the past has learned its lessons. It had to co-operate with the trade union movement throughout Covid-19. We have been talking to it about issues around the Windsor Framework. There is, therefore, an opportunity to have a comprehensive employment Bill in Northern Ireland that would work for all workers.

Mr. John Boyle

On the mobility issue, we have an office in Belfast and we have 7,200 members in the North. I cross the Border at least every fortnight in relation to work. When I head up to my family in Donegal, I would be up there at least twice a month as well. I have seen exactly the same as Deputy Brendan Smith. The closer we get to the Border, the more there are cars with Northern Ireland registrations outside schools in the South and vice versa. These are not all workers. Parents are involved as well. The insight we got from the report on Monday was very interesting. It was undertaken by Ulster University on education along the Border. Three geographical areas along the Border were studied. The full report has not been issued yet, but the university will be holding a big public event in the Farnham Estate hotel in County Cavan at 1 p.m. on Monday, 23 September.

What we have noticed, though, is that the communities there really value their local schools. For many of them, the Border is totally immaterial. They do not even see it. The school that is nearest them has a great reputation. I am not a bit surprised by that because, for example, according to test scores in literacy and numeracy, our children in the North are sometimes doing better or at least equally well as children in South, despite all the challenges they have in the system in the North. It is the value of the local school that is important and it gives me great hope that there is this type of mobility at such a young level, with children crossing the Border and their parents are bringing them. The difficulty then comes when they get a bit older. The other report that came out about student mobility at third level did not find what is happening at the lower primary or secondary levels carrying through. The other issue then translates into the workforce, where there is not the same transferability either.

The Teaching Council is much maligned sometimes. We had a meeting with its director and chair the week before last, and the Teaching Council itself is meeting next week. One of the key issues for us at that meeting was that there appear to be barriers to teachers who train in the North working in the South. The director and chair were very keen to point out that they did not feel there are such barriers and, furthermore, that they were going to undertake a communications plan in this regard to try to convince teachers training in the North. As I said, there is particular interest in the primary teachers who train in St. Mary's University College, who have Gaeilge. There are many Gaelscoileanna in the North, of course, but there may be more opportunities for those teachers to work in the South. That would be a good starting point, and then perhaps this could be developed further. I do not think the barriers are anywhere close to what they used to be, however. When we started campaigning on this issue some years ago it was taking at least 12 weeks for a teacher who had trained in Northern Ireland or the UK to register with the Teaching Council. The waiting time is now down to three weeks, so improvements have definitely been made.

Deputy Brendan Smith

The feedback I was getting reflects what the witnesses have said in that there are two divergent opinions. It will be important that the trade unions, as representative organisations, and the Teaching Council would set out what the facts are. We always know that the thing that is not factual will gather momentum quicker than the facts, unfortunately.

Regarding Mr. Reidy's points about the difference in standards and the differential in income, all this must be a source of concern. We wish to see equality and convergence on this island because we want to see the changes that will bring about improvements for everybody, North and South. Of concern is the statement made by Mr. Reidy that "with the continued absence of the Executive, more divergence will ... occur". This is a message that needs to go to the politicians who are holding up the restoration of the institutions, including the Assembly, the Executive and the North-South Ministerial Council. Oftentimes, that latter institution is left out of the narrative in regard to the difficulties because of Stormont not meeting.

Again, with regard to Mr. Boyle's point about the ESRI study on student mobility in Ireland and Northern Ireland, I welcome proper studies and qualitative research and not putting 100 people in a room and expecting them to have the answers to every issue that will arise in regard to our island and how its constitution will pan out in the future. All of us who have set views on that must be inclusive and accommodating and ensure that everybody's voices are heard. The clear message coming across in the witnesses' contributions is the need for the inclusion of all views.

I was at the initial launch of the project on the education of border communities, North and South. The study was sponsored by Educate Together and carried out by the Ulster University. I look forward to going to the event again for the launch of the final report. Again, this concerns schools in south Fermanagh, an area close to my county. These were earmarked for closure, which made no sense because we all know the value of local education and access to it. We take the point in respect of good research and the Teaching Council, and how we could have an all-Ireland teacher training system. This is a valuable suggestion because we would again be getting people involved at a young age.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I welcome the witnesses. I thank them for the great work they and the trade unions have done over many decades in bringing together workers North and South and pursuing workers' rights. They are right. Like us all, we were very concerned about Brexit. I remember being over in the UK with Deputy Brendan Smith, and any time politicians asked us what we thought of Brexit, we would always tell them, as diplomatically as we could, that we looked at it as the British shooting themselves in our foot. Unfortunately, it happened and we are where we are but much great work has been done. The witnesses are correct that Brexit has affected workers' rights and employment law. We must work together. The trade unions are unique in the work they do. I thank them for all the great work they have done. One thing we see is that Brexit has caused division and probably reinforced partition. Again, we must now work that bit harder in this regard.

I thank Mr. Boyle for the work he has done. I have met members of his trade union. It is lobbying for many worthwhile initiatives in the budget.

As with the Irish Farmers' Association, the INTO is a very strong and positive lobbying group. It is always nice to meet like-minded people. As a Government Deputy, we will do what we can.

Significant challenges are posed to the union members across the island. There is support for this committee in protecting and advancing the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement, which are very worthwhile.

Mr. Boyle referred to the launch of a report on third level student mobility in Ireland and Northern Ireland and another report that was launched about education and Border communities, North and South. Yesterday, I was at another event on policy on higher education mobility in the British Embassy. It was interesting to see that the facilities in UK universities are a big draw for Irish students, in particular those studying more hands-on courses such as medicine and engineering. Northern Ireland is seen as being closer to home so there is a divergence there.

One aspect that was mentioned yesterday was career guidance. I know career guidance in the South is not Mr. Boyle's area, but career guidance in secondary schools does not seem to fully realise the potential of Ireland and the UK. It was mentioned that in nationalist or Catholic schools in the North career guidance provides much more information on open courses in the South than unionist or grammar schools do. That is something we probably need to highlight.

We should remember that a lot of this is happening because of the common travel area, which is 100 years old. It was an understanding based on our common history but it was also included in various legislation, which makes it a lot easier for us all to do that kind of work between the two islands. The common travel area allows us to live, work, travel and study within the area.

I visited many schools when I was Chair of this committee and also as a member. We visited integrated schools, coeducational schools and schools in nationalist and unionist areas. I want to get the right word. We have always talked about attainment and the fact that there were more challenges in the unionist community. I recently visited the Belfast Boys' Model School in Ballysillan, which is a unionist area. The school is really boxing above its weight. I thank the principal, Mary Montgomery, for the great work that is being done. It was nice to see the school given that we have been talking here about that major issue. Perhaps we could invite representatives of a coeducational school, a school from a nationalist area and one from a unionist area to outline the challenges they face in their areas. I am sure the witnesses would be very supportive of that. I do not want to repeat what others have already raised. I thank the witnesses for their great work and great support.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Reidy has to leave. Does he wish to say anything before he goes?

Mr. Owen Reidy

I thank the committee very much. We look forward to continued engagement with the committee. It is doing a very important piece of work.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Reidy very much for his contribution.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

In regard to career guidance, I do not know if there is that much difference between schools in different communities. What really stood out for me in the ESRI report is the higher bar that is required. I do not believe it is an equivalent bar for young people from Northern Ireland. Some 96% of students in Northern Ireland only study three A-levels, but they must have four to get a university place in the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, the career guidance that is given is going to make little difference. I am a former secondary schoolteacher. In fact, most students from Northern Ireland just view studying in the Republic at higher level as unattainable. In a way, the bar has been set to keep them out. I think that is the view across all education sectors.

On the issue of differential attainment in schools, that is not as wide as people assume. Much of it is to do with the differential impact on academic selection. If a grammar school place is easier to get for one community, then that distorts the rankings of different schools. Once you take that out of it, I do not believe the difference is that stark. There is actually still a long tale of underachievement among young Catholic people in the North as well. The real issue is academic selection.

Mr. John Boyle

I thank Deputy Feighan for acknowledging our work. We do lobby very hard before the budget. I suppose it is a bit ironic really. The issues that we are lobbying on this year will be common to the schools and the education system in the North but, unfortunately, we do not have an opportunity to lobby there as there is nobody to lobby. The largest class sizes in the OECD are in the UK and Ireland, including Northern Ireland. The lowest level of funding for the education system as part of GDP is also in the UK and Ireland. There are not many opportunities for promotion for teachers and that might be one of the reasons so many of them are not working in Northern Ireland or the Republic. Unfortunately, there is very little support for children's mental health. If we had a campaign in the North, it would be very similar.

One of the issues that has been a great success in terms of teacher mobility is that teachers who train overseas generally have to stay in that jurisdiction to complete their induction, but we got an exception made, first of all for Covid since a lot of them were learning online, and then for the teacher supply crisis in the South, we have an exception for this year. Unfortunately, the exception is due to end on 1 February. That exception immediately resulted in about 80 teachers returning to do their induction here, primarily from England, Scotland and Wales. They went straight back into employment here. Otherwise they would have had to stay over there for two years. As Mr. McCamphill rightly identified, when you go to college over there and get used to the curriculum and working there for two years you might be less likely to return. We have been pressing the Teaching Council to extend the exemption beyond February because, for example, any young Irish person who is studying to be a teacher in England at the moment will miss the boat on this if they are in their first year. There are plenty of measures like that, which would be beneficial not only to the education system but would signal for the future that borders do not really matter. If you want to come back and work in Ireland you can work in Ireland, whether you want to work in the North or the South.

The report issued by the ESRI this week picked up on career guidance and identified that a lot more could be done in both jurisdictions in that regard. As Mr. McCamphill rightly said, there are not as many students in Northern Ireland studying foreign languages and a foreign language of often required to get into universities here. There is a good bit of tidying up to do there too.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Hanna is online. The order will be Ms Claire Hanna, Senator Black, Mr. Mickey Brady, Mr. Stephen Farry and Deputy Tóibín.

Can I ask Ms Hanna to come in there, please?

Ms Claire Hanna

I can indeed and I thank the Chair. I also thank the witnesses as this has been a very interesting conversation. I wish to put on record my gratitude to them on all sorts of issues, including workforce but also other societal issues and the way they navigate through the politics by keeping it very inclusive and broad-based. They briefly touched in the question there from Deputy Feighan on the specific issue of North-South student mobility. I know there was an intervention from the Minister, Deputy Harris, in the past week on this but it does appear and it feels anecdotally that there has been a slowdown of students from the North being able to travel and study in southern universities at the same time that there is a renewed interest in it. It is going to be crucial for that all-island integration, learning and understanding more about each other and about the workforce of the near future. Are there specific interventions the witnesses believe need to happen to make that smoother for students going North-South and do they think it is working well for students going South-North? I will probably direct that question to Mr. McCamphill as I know he has a wealth of experience in education, in particular.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

I thank Ms Hanna for her question. I believe the current position is that the bar is so high for students from the North going South that I believe the qualifications are equally as difficult to get. If you are asking for a minimum of four subjects and if the points system then requires all of those subjects to be at A* level, you are very much restricting yourself to the top 2% of the population from the North actually scoring high enough academically to get a university place in the Republic. Universities in Northern Ireland certainly seem to have a better way of working out equivalences for qualifications from all sorts of countries. As somebody who went to Queen's University Belfast, I know that it had students there from countries all over the world and has clearly managed to work out an equivalent system. This certainly can allow students from the Republic to come to apply for places on an equal footing.

This is something on which we want to build relationships North and South because that is a good end goal in itself, even setting aside the debate about the future of the island, but we need to encourage social mobility of our people North and South.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr McCamphill very much. I have two other quick questions which may relate in ways to the quagmire we are in in the North, particularly with regard to health, which would appear to be one sector where terms and conditions are an issue, as well as the overall working environment and working less in a system of chaos and decay. Are the witnesses seeing much of a differential in regard to pay and conditions in the health sector in the South as opposed to the North and does that create an additional challenge of retention in the North?

My second question is what engagement the witnesses had with members, especially within the Northern Ireland Civil Service, about the specific challenges they are facing of operating without any political leadership, together with the pressure that is being placed upon them to make not just unpalatable but impossible cuts in a way it was never envisaged for civil servants to have to do?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

I thank Ms Hanna again. Mr. Reidy outlined earlier the differentials that exist in pay between North and South. There is a 30% gap across the public sector. In health, in particular, we are seeing hospitals like Daisy Hill Hospital losing senior doctors and consultants who have moved to the Republic for higher pay levels. It is not just about pay but is also about working conditions within hospitals in the North, which are deteriorating to such an extent that those who can and do live in Border areas are leaving. While it is good in ways that we have North-South movement, I believe the real challenge is how we fix the public services in the North.

Currently, the DUP is still refusing to return to government, but from our perspective, we would ask that even if it did, how do we fix Northern Ireland as it is? Without a proper funding model from the UK and an examination of the Barnett consequentials, Northern Ireland is not going to have a sustained recovery post Brexit. It all comes back to Brexit, unfortunately, and the damage that has been done. It is important, therefore, that the Irish Government continues to work to try to build those relationships. I accept this is something the Irish Government did not ask for but it is important the Government continues to work to re-establish those relationships.

On engagements with civil servants, ICTU meets with senior civil servants in Northern Ireland. Again, they are exasperated with the political situation they are in where they have to provide leadership where there is no political leadership there for them. They are working under a position where the Secretary of State is now likely to impose cost-saving measures and revenue-raising measures on Northern Ireland which people cannot afford.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr. McCamphill very much and I also thank the Chair as I know that there are other members waiting to make a contribution.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Hanna. Our next speaker is Senator Black followed by Mickey Brady MP, Stephen Farry MP, and Deputies Tóibín and Wynne.

Senator Frances Black

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, and I thank our witnesses so much for attending the committee today. I warmly welcome this level of detailed engagement and I very much want to underline the significant role of the trade union movement in our discussions. This is what we are doing at the moment on this committee, where we hope to have these open discussions about constitutional change which are completely vital at this time. I believe Mr. McCormack said Brexit has changed everything. It misinformed people. That is key in everything we do in this. As a result of Brexit, a citizens' initiative was set up called Ireland's Future which I now chair. That initiative seeks to encourage people to have this conversation on that issue and not to be afraid of it. This conversation comes around kitchen tables now and people are open to having it. It is also about having that discussion about planning and preparing because, with Brexit, there is a very strong possibility constitutional change is coming down the road.

We found, and this is something that has been discussed today, that more and more unionist voices are coming to us to have this conversation. We have members who are from traditionally unionist backgrounds. We have the ex-Alliance Party chair Trevor Lunn, Reverend Karen Sethuraman, and Peter Adair, a young man in Oxford University now, and they all want to have this conversation. In actual fact, last year in the Ulster Hall, we sold out an event where we had Glenn Bradley, an ex-British soldier, who is from the loyalist Shankill Road, and he and unionist voices want to have this conversation. Obviously, there will be a small cohort who do not want to have it but there is a growing group and the farming community, in particular, from a unionist background who want to have this conversation. It is very important where we work very hard in providing that safe and accommodating shelter for that unionist voice. Some of them come to us behind the scenes to talk to us and we provide a platform for people to express their views.

It is also hoped we will be having a round-table discussion where we will meet with all of the political parties and they will all be participating such a discussion. Thankfully, we met with An Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar.

Last week we had a wonderful engaging conversation with the Taoiseach. The only reason I am saying all of this is that we genuinely believe planning and preparing are vital. We do not want another Brexit situation. We need to find out, discuss and really talk about what it will look like. It is very important we ensure socioeconomic rights such as healthcare and housing are central to planning for constitutional change. The Good Friday Agreement is wonderful. This year is its 25th anniversary. It makes clear the choices on what people want or have for the future. Will the witnesses expand on what trade unions will do to plan and prepare for possible constitutional change? They have touched on socioeconomic rights such as healthcare and I ask them to expand on this topic, which is core to all of this. Is the trade union movement planning and preparing for this? Are there discussions taking place on it? If so, what is the plan?

Mr. John Boyle

I have two hats as I am also on the executive of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, as is our deputy general secretary, Ms Deirdre O'Connor. Mr. McCamphill is the current president. Wearing my teacher union hat first, we have been collaborating and co-operating with colleagues across the Border. We organise in many schools, preschools and secondary schools in the North. We have had a very close working relationship with the other unions. There are five education unions in total for teachers and a number of others for non-teaching staff. We work very closely together. Work at union level is funded but what is not funded is the work that is needed underneath it. There were certainly opportunities for EU funding for schools getting involved in North-South projects. To me, as a principal teacher, it appeared there was much more take up on east-west projects and European projects than on North-South projects. For any school that engaged in these projects, this type of co-operation breaks down a lot of barriers, not only for the children and their parents but for the teachers themselves. It will be a big concern that this funding stream will no longer be there.

Beyond this, we are trying at all times to convince the authorities North, South and in London that education is the passport to the future. If there is to be investment for an Ireland of the future, it needs to be put in early years education. It is 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement and most young primary school children do not have any memory, thank God, of what the generation before them had to go through. If we start building at this level, the one thing we will have to keep in mind is that it has to be inclusive. I attended a number of the events in Belfast, as did colleagues of mine. Many of the speakers were very passionate that the conversation needs to develop quickly. I can understand this, but any new Ireland will have to be very conscious that the Good Friday Agreement also offers choices to the minority community on the island. Work on this at school level and in the education system is the way to bring people along. Even if it takes a while longer to get people to the position where they are ready to make decisions on constitutional change, it would be well worth investing in for the children and the students of Ireland.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

To answer the question what ICTU is doing to plan and prepare for constitutional change, the important thing to say is that we are not taking a position on constitutional change. However, there are other groups that are having that conversation. We are fully up for taking part in that conversation, just as if an alternative group were arguing for the maintenance of the union, we would be up for engaging in that and on the long-term prospects for workers' rights within it. We are coming at this from the aspect of workers' rights and the unity of the trade union movement. If we have a referendum, successful or unsuccessful, the day after it we will still be the voice of workers' rights and will want to have all those workers united with us.

Senator Frances Black

I want to come back to Mr. Boyle with regard to the funding and ask him to say a little more on it. He said there is a chance the funding will not be around for long. Will he say a little more about what he means by this?

Mr. John Boyle

The funding came from the EU. The question is-----

Senator Frances Black

Is it gone completely?

Mr. John Boyle

We are at the tail end of it. Some of these projects were for three or four years. I have a deep concern about the funding being cut for projects that have been developing well. The budget surpluses for the Irish Government look fairly good for the next few years. If it were able to come in and plug the gap, that would be fine, but the fact the funding was coming from the EU may have got more buy-in from the schools involved. There is concern that good work done to date might come to a shuddering stop. All of this comes back to Brexit.

Senator Frances Black

Of course. Does Mr. Boyle think funding has dwindled in general? What are his thoughts in general on all of the fantastic EU work that was being done with regard to reconciliation? Am I right in saying that is all gone now?

Mr. John Boyle

Particular programmes such as the Erasmus programme will not be available to students in Northern Ireland. They are available for the moment but-----

Mr. Justin McCamphill

The Irish Government is funding Erasmus.

Mr. John Boyle

The concern is the EU will not fund it. At least the Irish Government has stepped in. I do have a worry about it. I hope the funding stream will continue.

Senator Frances Black

I thank the witnesses.

An Cathaoirleach

Another point is that it is hoped there will be a softening in a future British Government's attitude to the EU and perhaps there will be common sense that will assist in a lot of this.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank the speakers and commend the unions on the tremendous work they continue to do. Last week I attended the TUC conference in Liverpool. I spoke at a fringe meeting. I also had discussions with a number of unions such as the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and a few others. I have to say I was encouraged by their realisation that constitutional change is on its way. They can see the need for in-depth discussion on the subject and, for instance, setting up citizens' assemblies. That was encouraging.

More recently, this month Mr. Gerry Murphy, who is ICTU assistant general secretary, spoke on a document that outlines proposals to address the public sector finance crisis in the North. There were number of suggestions. I would like the witnesses to comment on some of them. Do the witnesses think the Barnett formula is redundant and should be replaced? Should Departments submit bids to the Treasury for specific projects? Should funding be established on a needs-based system? These are all proposals that warrant discussion.

This week I was on the picket line with lecturers in further education and higher education colleges who have been out on strike. The disparity between their wages and that of teachers is interesting.

In some cases, it amounts to approximately £7,000. Those lecturers come under the Department for the Economy, for some reason, not the Department of Education, which would seem to be more relevant.

There are a couple of other issues I want to mention. Mr. Gerry McCormack talked about the danger to the agrifood industry with regard to getting workers. I have been involved with mushroom growers in the North. Mushrooms represent approximately 40% of agrifood exports. The difficulty is getting migrant workers into the North because they only get six-month visas. The growers say it takes four to six months to train these people, so by the time they are trained, they are ready to leave. We have been lobbying to get visas for at least two years. That is ongoing. I think the unions may be involved in supporting that.

The other issue I will mention is something I have been dealing with for many years and continue to deal with daily. It is the state pensions that workers in the North get after they retire. A state pension in the North and Britain is the lowest in the developed world and continues to cause problems. The Tories will tell you that people should save, but if people live in a low-wage economy, it is virtually impossible to save. Many industries here do not have occupational pensions, so people are left with the state pension, which is basically the minimum. I want the witnesses to talk about that and maybe discuss what could be done to enhance the pension. There is a great disparity between pensions, North and South. Constitutional change is a great opportunity to deal with issues like pensions, workers' rights and a whole new social welfare system. It is an opportunity to deal with all these issues.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

The ICTU paper has set out a case for changes to the Barnett formula. Currently, it is based on just expenditure in England. It does not take any account of the particular needs of people in Northern Ireland. We know the Barnett formula was reviewed and changed for Wales and Scotland. We believe the same thing needs to happen for Northern Ireland. Looking at Northern Ireland as part of the UK economy as a whole, it is clear that what is there at the minute is not working. We see it across the whole public sector with regard to pay. The case Mr. Brady makes about further education, FE, colleges is 100% correct. A teacher in an FE college who does the same job, substantially, as a teacher in sixth form in a school, for example, receives significantly less money. Not only is the starting salary less, but so is the top of the main scale. It is at that point that the gap becomes quite wide.

The University and College Union, and the NASUWT, which represents teachers in those colleges, would prefer that the colleges actually move to the Department of Education rather than the Department for the Economy. The divergence in government departments has led to a divergence in conditions of service.

I am not that au fait with issues regarding the agrifood industry but ICTU is supportive of migrant workers. It works with migrant workers to make sure they have the same rights and conditions as other citizens.

We know the state pension is low and we expect, if there are discussions around constitutional change, that the movement would be to get the best of both worlds, North and South, if that is the direction of travel.

Mr. John Boyle

The darkest time for me as a trade unionist on this side of the Border was when we lost our economic sovereignty and all the pain that followed from that. As an educationalist at the time, I remember particularly one budget where there was a dirty dozen of cuts to the education system. I was obviously hoping that I would never see this again and that it was a once-off. Thankfully, much of the damage that happened at that time has been repaired since. Not all of it has been, but much of it. Unfortunately, we are experiencing the exact same with the education system in the North. We learned on this side of the Border, politically, that when we had other crises in recent years, we went at it with a better and fairer approach. We are not seeing that now. There is no doubt that part of that is due to the Barnett formula and the fact that there is so much neglect from London of the Six Counties of Ireland. That is impacting not only on the workers but on the public at large who the workers are trying to serve.

Some of the cuts that have been earmarked and driven through for education are even worse in the North than what we experienced in the South at the time. There are many vulnerable communities in Northern Ireland. There is much deprivation and disadvantage. There are many children with special educational needs, just as there would be here, who are really suffering from that. Mr. Gerry Murphy spoke about that ICTU paper and funding needing to be on a needs basis. One of the big clouds over funding in Northern Ireland at the moment is that a huge deficit has built up over the years due to the neglect. Our concern as a trade union movement is that if an assembly is to be up and functioning, it needs to get the funding to not only overcome the debt, but that if all the funding that becomes available has to go to settle debt, then the public services will not advance and the citizens will suffer.

Could workers in Northern Ireland who are experiencing this in teaching be blamed? It has been like a 20-year pay freeze. As people know, in the agrifood sector or anywhere else, the price of ordinary commodities is going up all the time. Could people be blamed for seeking employment elsewhere? That is not what we are about as a trade union movement. We are the biggest all-island collective gathering of workers. We want to make sure that, wherever people live on this island, they will have quality living and will be able to benefit from the best public services.

I sincerely hope that if the assembly is moving towards going back to work, with all of the stakeholders, whether from the USA, the UK or Ireland, that there is a decent funding stream to make sure that Northern Ireland can move forward.

Dr. Stephen Farry

Good morning, everyone. I too welcome the paper from ICTU on financing in Northern Ireland. It was a very useful contribution to the ongoing debate and pressure for change in that respect. I wanted to raise a few issues. Hopefully our witnesses can pick those up as appropriate. Going back to some of the comments Owen Reidy made about the nature of employment relations in Northern Ireland and the approach of government, one of the big things we managed to do in 2015 was to reject the draconian anti-trade union legislation at that stage. We are the only part of the UK to which that does not apply. Whenever we were looking at some of the employment law changes in the early 2010s, we built up an informal social partnership model between both business and trade unions to try to reach a consensus on how we would manage changes to employment law. I appreciate that Mr. Owen Reidy, who has left, was keen to see the emergence of some form of social partnership model in Northern Ireland.

I wanted to ask our witnesses to reflect on the current situation in the South with engagement between business, trade unions and the Government. Is it good or bad? What lessons could we learn in Northern Ireland with regard to any future developments we may make in that respect, if and when we get our institutions restored?

On the issue of workers' rights, it would be useful to talk a little through the architecture under the protocol or Windsor Framework in that regard, the difference between those rights that are protected through the direct application of regulation or directives continuing under the Windsor Framework exclusive to Northern Ireland, and the wider dangers and problems relating to the looser protections under Article 2 of the protocol and the intersection with the retained EU law, albeit slightly watered down. To what extent is that still a threat to employment rights in Northern Ireland?

On the issue of education, I too approach these issues relating to the future of the island on a non-prejudiced basis, but I happen to take part in debates. In education, it strikes me that the two systems in Northern Ireland and the South are radically different in a number of areas. I would be interested to hear people's views on how difficult it will be to overcome them to create a single system, if we ever get to that stage over the coming years.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

Dr. Farry mentioned Mr. Reidy's comments on the nature of employment relations and he is quite right to be proud of what was done in 2015 to prevent the imposition of the Trade Union Act on Northern Ireland, which, as we can see from our counterparts in Great Britain, is having an enormously negative impact both on trade unions themselves and how they operate and on the rights and conditions of service of workers as a consequence. Since then, there has been further legislation, such as the minimum services Bill, which will be even more detrimental.

On the social partnership model, Mr. Boyle will probably talk more about in the context of what happens in the South. I have been an ICTU president only since July, so I have not had much engagement, but I have been to a sub-committee meeting of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF. I know there is work going on in the South that we are not taking part in in the North. We are having conversations about the shared island, and we have never really had that level of formal engagement, at least in my time, at ICTU in the North.

I might skip the next question, given Mr. Boyle might be better placed to answer it.

On the education systems, they are radically different. There was a great deal of conversation earlier about the Irish language, and that is an issue on which teachers in Northern Ireland would like to know they can continue on, still qualified to teach as normal, while still being able to access the new curriculum. Any new curriculum would need to be worked out. There are issues with the curriculum in Northern Ireland as it is. The push for a lot of examinations at the age of 16, as applies in Northern Ireland, is not good. We should be looking at a model where more subjects are studied through to 18, but in the event of a new political arrangement, there would have to be a transition to that while, at the same time, protecting the existing rights of teachers in order that they would not be disadvantaged if they were to move to the South in the context of the Irish language requirement.

Mr. John Boyle

On the social partnership question, there was a time in the Republic when there were real social partners, with every group involved in the discussions about national agreements, although that has not been the case for some time. Generally, in the public sector, an agreement is negotiated for a few years directly with government and the various trade unions are involved in the discussions. In recent years, that has been negotiated a little more centrally by Irish Congress of Trade Unions officers, of whom I am one, but at the same time, all the unions keep in weekly contact as to how the discussions are happening.

On the bigger scale, Mr. McCamphill mentioned the LEEF. That has been a great success because it enables all the employer representatives, the trade union representatives and a lot of senior Ministers to come together monthly to discuss improvements within the economy and how that can filter down to citizens. There have been a lot of discussions in that forum on housing and all the various aspects of having a modern society and we really value that work. There is also all the informal work that happens because of the relationships that have been built up over the years, whereby the trade union has connections with all the groups it represents, and they all come together at least once a year at the national economic dialogue, which tends to take place in June. That is a chance for all the representative groups to have their shopping list in front of the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach in the context of the budget for the year ahead.

On the differences in the education system, it is gas that in 1932, after the Stanley report and the establishment of national schools, the school system was the exact same throughout the island of Ireland at primary level, and in the intervening years a lot of changes took place in regard to church involvement in education and so on. There is a lot of commonality between the systems, North and South. The biggest difference is that in the South, education tends to be funded more centrally; there is one Department of Education, which has full control over the grants going to schools, and the grants are specific. There is a grant for cleaning and maintenance, for example, and secretaries and caretakers. In the North, however, the funding goes directly to the school, which has autonomy over the use of the funding. That might all work reasonably well at a time there is plenty of funding, but not when there are draconian cuts and principal teachers and boards of governors have to make choices as to whether to keep a secretary or a school meals programme. On balance, I think our system is better because at least you know what the money is for and you are obliged to spend it on that priority area. There are a lot of differences but, as I mentioned, the results students achieve in international tests are still very high. We always like to set the bar as high as possible, however, so I always wonder, if we are achieving this much with the least funding in the OECD, where we would be if we were properly funded. We would probably be at the top in all those areas throughout the world. There is still a lot of work to be done.

Dr. Stephen Farry

It is noticeable that the education system in the South, in the context of the wider skills question, is one of the key aspects of the performance of the Irish economy, so I praise all those involved in getting those good results.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. Farry. He got a good reference from one of our guests earlier, who said he was a very dynamic Minister in his day. I hope we will see him again, in some capacity, in that job. He could be a Minister in our Government any time.

I am struck that the question of convergence of pay, North and South, in all jobs and employment, would be a huge issue, regarding standards and so on, if there were to be a future together. I know studies have been done on that.

Is there an overarching view? One of the things we lose sight of in the debate about the future of the island is how we would fit it all together. Does that make sense?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The other question is that we do not want skills shortages in one part of the island and an oversupply in another part.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

The LEEF, shared island sub-group has established a research project on labour mobility and how people are working, North and South. It is currently setting up the parameters for that and I know my colleague, Gerry Murphy, will be helping to set up a focus group of trade unionists and people who move North and South. That work is still in its preparation stage but we are engaged in it and, hopefully, there will be something to report.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh took the Chair.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I thank all of the witnesses for their opening statements, which provided a great read for me in preparation for the meeting today. A point that I want to highlight at the outset is that I fully agree with the view that was expressed on the ongoing use of academic selection and this being of major detriment to social progression.

The submission from the INTO states that the movement of teachers pursuing employment should not be restricted, and I would certainly agree with that sentiment. An all-island approach is necessary and important. Does Mr. Boyle have any figures or indications of percentages with regard to teachers who have not been able to secure permanent or long-term contracts? In this jurisdiction, I often hear from teachers who cannot get secure contracts and this prevents them from putting down roots or getting a mortgage, and all sorts of other issues arise for them. Given we have a shortage of teachers, that does not make sense to me. I ask Mr. Boyle to expand on that issue. This also brings up the issue of special education teachers, who would face the same issues if they were to cross the Border to work.

I ask Mr. Boyle to expand on the limited opportunities for career progression. He described an inertia following Brexit for Northern Ireland teachers and the stark difference of a whopping 50% between the starting salaries of primary teachers, a disparity that I was not aware of and one that is truly eye-opening. How can we, as a committee, assist the INTO in its pursuit of a fair pay award? It is without question that we would support the INTO with regard to ensuring mirroring in terms of representation and improvements to employer rights for its members in Northern Ireland. Mr. Boyle mentioned teacher training places. What is the current number of teacher training places and what would be the ideal number?

Separately, in regard to workers’ rights at a wider scale, I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the local issue in Clare where those who worked for Iceland in Shannon unbelievably were only given about 15 minutes of notice and received information by way of text message that they were effectively laid off. I feel this was disgusting and an outright wrong. As we know, many of those staff would have young families and huge rents or mortgages to pay. Is there any advice for my Shannon constituents who are affected by that issue?

The main takeaway for me from each of the submissions is that the longer we do not have a sitting Executive in place in the North, the more divergence will exist.

Mr. John Boyle

I thank Deputy Wynne. I will begin with substitution teacher supply for primary in the South and I will also try to cover post-primary and the North. For the South, our analysis from Department statistics given to us for August to December last year would be that on any given day, we are down 1,600 teachers for primary. That manifests in many different ways. It basically means there are 1,600 groups of children every day that do not have a teacher. For example, it could be a mainstream class where a substitute could not be found. That would happen primarily in the rent pressure areas and would not tend to happen outside rent pressure areas because many teachers are voting with their feet. They cannot afford to live in a rent pressure area so they are staying locally to try to get work, maybe on the western seaboard or in the midlands, and they are securing work. In primary, there is no problem getting work and there is no problem getting full-time hours. For most of the jobs that have come into the primary sector in recent years, we have managed to find creative ways of clustering bits of jobs together, for example, the one weekly principal’s release day can perhaps be clustered with special education hours or with some of the other hours that teachers get for supporting children who are fleeing wars and natural disasters. That creates a full-time post and people are very attracted to those. However, we are still down about 1,600 on a daily basis, as I said, and that is 1,600 groups of children not having their right to an education on that day.

The situation in post-primary is very different. In post-primary, one of the big impediments is that it is difficult to get a permanent job and it is difficult to get full hours because of the way the system has developed over the years. Many post-primary teachers when they start out on their career path are only working part-time hours, so if the starting salary for a post-primary teacher is €42,000, there are not that many of them who can achieve that salary because they are being paid on a pro rata basis.

We had a campaign on teacher supply over recent months and the Government agreed to 610 extra students being brought into the higher education institutions. Of course, it is not 610 in the first year; it is about 310 in the first year and 300 in the second year. Some of those students will not graduate until four years afterwards because they are not all on the postgraduate two-year course and many of them are on the four-year course, so some of them will not actually be available until 2028. That big gap of 1,600 has to be filled in different ways. Our key demand of the Government is to make the profession more attractive on the island, North and South.

One of the ways of making the profession more attractive is to try to encourage teachers who are currently not available to work. There is a huge disparity between the number of registered teachers and the number who are actually working. When we explore that further, we find that many of the people who are not available to work are either retired or are abroad. Some of them are also working in other areas of education, which is very necessary too, for example, developing new curricula and so on, but the majority are either retired or abroad, and they keep up their registration but they are not available to work here. For retired colleagues, we have been asking the Department to look at the amount it is paying them to incentivise them to come back into the schools, and not to abate their pension if they make themselves available, put on the green jersey and come back into school after retirement. For those who are abroad, the attractiveness of the profession goes back to all of the cuts that happened between 2009 and 2013. It is very difficult to get a promotional post. Assistant principals are like hens’ teeth in the bigger schools in the urban areas, whereas back in the day, when I was a principal, I had a good middle management team in the school and this was a career path for teachers. There was also the removal of all of the allowances that teachers used to get.

They have been removed since 2012 for so-called new beneficiaries. The impact of that is that if one tries to progress one's career, by, for example, doing specialist courses for special education, and one achieves a diploma, there used be an allowance coming with the diploma provided that one committed to stay in special education for four years. One could not keep the diploma allowance for life. If one stayed for four years, one kept it. Now, if one did a diploma, one gets no allowance and there is no incentive for people to even work in special education. In our efforts in the next public service agreement, we will be trying to get Government to row back on those cuts that happened ten or 12 years ago.

In the North, Queen's University Belfast did not fill all its places for teacher education courses this year. Obviously, that is a concern as well, but maybe not a big surprise when one thinks about it. If young school leavers have choices as to what work they will pursue and if one will only start on £24,000 as a teacher, who can live on that? Who can live anywhere in Northern Ireland on £24,000, particularly at the time of a crisis in the cost of living that we have had the past couple of years? It is very worrying for us that the number of teachers being trained in the North will drop as a result of the courses not being filled and this is why we are calling for a forum to be established in Roinn an Taoisigh to look at education on the island in all its ways, not only the salaries but also the funding streams for schools.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh)

I thank Mr. Boyle and Deputy Wynne, who has had to leave. Has Senator Black spoken?

Senator Frances Black

I will speak after Deputy Tully.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh)

Okay. I call Deputy Tully then.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank the Chair. Apologies, I was late. I was caught up, both in traffic and in something else in the Dáil, but I have read their opening statements and I understand and appreciate the importance of ensuring workers rights are protected and that they are on a par, North and South, as they were when the EU had jurisdiction over the whole island.

In relation to teaching, and I apologise if I ask a question that has already been asked by someone, the INTO represents primary school teachers, here in the South and in the North. Is there any other union in the North that also represents primary teachers or is the INTO the singular union for the whole country?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

There are five teacher unions in the North that represent across both primary and secondary. It is quite a complex arrangement. I work for one of those other unions in the North but I would say, though, we have a very good model of working together to represent teachers. We have a body called the Northern Ireland Teachers Council. We meet fairly regularly. We have joint meetings with the employers and then we present a single case when it comes to terms and conditions etc.

Deputy Pauline Tully

In the South, we have two secondary school unions and sometimes there is talk about them amalgamating and that they would be stronger together. They do not always agree completely on issues, although most of the time they work well together.

Mr. Justin McCamphill

It is always an issue for trade unions when one has a multiplicity of unions in terms of how they work together. I suppose that is why we have the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to try to keep everyone on the same page.

Deputy Pauline Tully

There is the Teaching Council here in the South. Is there an equivalent body in the North?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

There was a general teaching council for Northern Ireland. However, it became very dysfunctional. A report was done on it that said it was the worst dysfunction that anyone had ever seen in a public body. It is now under review but, with no Assembly in the North, it will not be possible to have a replacement. The INTO has a position that we should try to expand the Teaching Council here to Northern Ireland as well but that is, I suppose, something that would need to be teased out.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Mr. Boyle is calling here for there to be an easy or a fast-track process here if teachers who qualify in the North or are teaching up there wish to transfer to the southern system. Mr. Boyle talked about some differences in the educational systems. Are there many differences in qualification? I know Irish is one for primary school, but otherwise would there be many differences in the qualifications that teachers receive to teach in the primary sector?

Mr. John Boyle

No. Quite a considerable cohort of those who work in the South actually trained to be a teacher in the UK. The basic degree for teaching is the bachelor of education degree, and that is offered in various institutions in Belfast - the two colleges, Stranmillis and St. Mary's. It is offered in various other institutions across Great Britain.

There is another route into teaching which is a post-graduate route. Here, in the Republic, that is a two-year add-on course. If one does one's degree - any degree - one does an extra two years. Much of it is school based, more so even in post-primary. The second year of it is fully school based in post-primary whereas in primary, there is teaching practice or school placement throughout the two years. In the UK, there are a number of courses like that. The Teaching Council obviously watches this closely because it is all about the quality and there would be some worrying trends in teacher training internationally. The Teaching Council is not likely to register teachers unless they achieve a particular bar.

The Irish qualification was mentioned earlier. Our position on it is that we agree with the approach that is taken at present where teachers are given up to three years to achieve the qualification. In a new Ireland, we may, indeed, have to change our position on that because there is absolutely no way that we as a union would want to force teachers who had no basis for the Irish language, or maybe not that much interest in it, to have it in order to be accredited to work on the island. There is a three-year period to achieve it but the difficulty is that the Government does not provide any support to anybody to reach the bar. There are a number of ways to achieve it but in terms of having to study for it or courses that are made available, they are generally made available from private institutions at significant cost. At a time of a teacher supply crisis, it makes eminent sense to me, with the wonderful teachers who would like to work in Ireland, whether they are from the North or from any other part of the world, that they would get some assistance to achieving the qualification. That would be for primary.

For post-primary, the so-called scrúdú cáilíochta is not as big an issue. Nevertheless, we have to look at creative ways of increasing teacher supply and that the teaching workforce would reflect the diversity in our communities. We did a piece of work with Maynooth University in the Turn to Teaching initiative around diversity in the teaching profession. There is much work going on to encourage those who would not traditionally have been primary teachers in Ireland to join the profession but it is not well funded. It is slow progress. We would like to see much more done in that space too.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd resumed the Chair.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I taught in secondary school for years before I was elected here. I saw teachers coming into the school and maybe not having the qualifications to meet the Teaching Council criteria and having to take on courses, in the evening time or whatever, at their own expense. That can be quite a burden, especially when one takes into account housing, the cost-of-living crisis etc.

I come from Cavan. There were quite a lot of teachers from Fermanagh, for example, who taught in the school. I never turned around and asked them where did they qualify and I am not sure if they were trained in the North or the South. In a Border county, one will have people travelling and the easier it is to teach in both jurisdictions, the better. The outcomes for our students are similar anyway, whichever school they go to. I thank Mr. Boyle.

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies, I had to ask the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science a question. I got a good answer. Senator Black wanted to come in there.

Senator Frances Black

I have one quick question. It is slightly different to the topic this morning. It is refreshing, in fairness, to hear them speak this morning about how they represent workers across the Border and across the communal divide in the North.

I am also aware that trade unions play an important role in the movement against racism and discrimination of all kinds. The shameful events that happened outside Leinster House yesterday underscore the importance of that work. Can our guests say a little about trade unionism as a unifying force when it comes to the events that happened yesterday?

What can be done from a trade union perspective?

Mr. Justin McCamphill

From a trade union perspective, we can continue to be a voice against racism. Most trade unions are involved in educating their own members at different levels around how to tackle the far right and how ordinary workers can call out those behaviours. Unfortunately, what we saw outside on the street yesterday is only the tip of the iceberg of what is really going on on social media and the type of things being spread on it. We have to explain to our members that when they pick on transgender people, for example, they do not stop there, they have wider aims and objectives and they are going after gay people and black people. We must say that we have to have a united voice together, this is unacceptable and these people do not represent ordinary workers. The trade union movement represents ordinary workers and, in fact, they are not standing up against the elite. They probably want to put an old elite back in place.

Mr. John Boyle

As an educationalist, a huge amount can be done at local school level. A lot is happening. The development of the revised curricula for primary and post-primary will help in that regard. We also have to acknowledge as leaders within ICTU that even though it is a small minority within the far right, some of them could be union members. We have a job to do in our own ranks regarding members of ours engaging in that type of anti-inclusion activity. There was such a mix and gathering of individuals gathered outside Leinster House yesterday and some of them do not even agree with each other. The bottom line is that they are anti-equality, anti-diversity and anti-humanity, absolutely. In that regard, we have working groups within ICTU working towards combating the far right. There is a huge level of engagement across all unions. We have 20 key activists and officials from our unions across the island involved in that working group. We intend to make sure they do not gain any more traction because some of what happened over the past two years throughout Covid - second-guessing our medical profession - involves the same individuals. They tend to turn up at every dogfight, from attacking library workers in various parts of the country to threatening to burn school halls when children and families fleeing war are there for a period during the holidays. It is the same individuals. I support Senator Black's Oireachtas colleague who wrote to An Garda Síochána this morning looking for the policing of this to be stepped up. We would not tolerate this as a trade union movement. We hope the political system is more alert to it than ever after what happened yesterday. There was an attack on democracy yesterday but it has been happening in communities, for example, shutting down the M50 motorway in the middle of the working day and when people are going home. It is very concerning for us in the trade union movement who have been fighting all our lives for equality. Anything committee members can do as politicians to try to snuff it out would be most welcome.

Senator Frances Black

It is very refreshing to hear that a strategy is in place from the trade union perspective.

An Cathaoirleach

I think Mr. Boyle spoke for all of us when he said that. He articulated all of our views.

That concludes our public session. I thank Mr. Boyle in particular and Mr. McCamphill, Mr. Reidy and Mr. McCormack for their contributions earlier. It was very detailed. I think everybody expressed their views and listened intensively to what the witnesses said. We will now go into private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.54 a.m. and adjourned at 11.59 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28 September 2023.