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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 2023

All-Ireland Economy: Discussion

Ten-minute speaking slots have been allocated to each party group but these are applied in a relaxed and informal manner. The rotation is as follows: Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, the SDLP, Independents and subsequently, it depends on what other members attend. Some members are attending online.

Apologies have been received from Senator Frances Black and Stephen Farry, MP. On behalf of our committee, I very much welcome Mr. Paul Mac Flynn and Dr. Tom McDonnell, co-directors of the Nevin Economic Research Institute, to discuss the all-island economy. I thank them for their attendance.

Before we commence, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings should be given and that they should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the person's or the entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Mac Flynn to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I thank the Chair and the members and staff of the committee for the invitation to appear before them. I am joined by my colleague Dr. Tom McDonnell. We are the co-directors of the Nevin Economic Research Institute, NERI. The NERI is a think tank based in Dublin and Belfast carrying out research on both economies on the island of Ireland. We are supported in that by trade unions that operate in both parts of the island of Ireland and many that operate outside the Republic of Ireland. Our mission is to produce research that will guide and inform policies that lead to the creation of sustainable and inclusive economies in both jurisdictions.

As an institute, when planning programmes of research or research projects, the NERI tries to include both economies in the island of Ireland within that. However, that is not always possible because we are dealing with two very different economies, North and South. When we have done research like that we have noticed a tendency for outcomes to be evaluated in a very binary way. By this we mean that, too often, research is used to feed a narrative that one region is economically superior or more productive than the other and that it follows that we should either extend or replicate policy from one region to another. The reality is that both economies have strengths and weaknesses and while Northern Ireland’s current underperformance is quite prominent, it does not naturally follow that simply emulating the policies of the Republic of Ireland in Northern Ireland would remedy that situation.

The differences between both economies have obviously been exacerbated by the UK’s decision to leave the European Union, but the truth is that both economies have been on a different trajectory for quite some time. For example, during the financial crash between 2008 and 2010, the Republic of Ireland experienced a much larger shock to output and to employment and unemployment than was the case in Northern Ireland. The austerity policies pursued in the Republic were far deeper and more immediate. In contrast, Northern Ireland had less of an immediate shock from the crash, but the austerity policies pursued by the UK Government over the following years meant that no significant recovery was possible and indeed stagnation took hold afterwards. In no scenario would we have recommended the policies of the Republic of Ireland for Northern Ireland or vice versa. For both economies, there were alternatives. Strategies that prioritised sustainable investment and economic security would have provided much more equitable and resilient outcomes.

In the same vein there has been much discussion recently about the very different budgetary situations in which Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland find themselves. The most recent Republic of Ireland budget is cast in a much better light when we look at the situation Northern Ireland finds itself in with regard to budgets. Again, this is very reductive and could be quite misleading. We should not focus inwards on relative performance between these two economies. We should instead be focused on driving both economies towards something different and better. Rather than seeking to vindicate the approach of one region over the other, we should instead look beyond this island and to many of the available academic research for models that are worthy of emulation. For example, our colleague Lisa Wilson sat on the Northern Ireland Fiscal Commission, which delivered a very valuable report on devolving taxes to Northern Ireland. Among the many recommendations the commission made, it advised an incoming Executive against devolving corporation tax. Devolving corporation tax to Northern Ireland with the intention of matching the rate in the Republic of Ireland has been a fixation of previous Northern Ireland Executives. It has been a distraction from real policies - industrial, innovation and enterprise policies - which would have had a chance of achieving or delivering sustainable growth in the North's economy over that time. This is not to say that there are not many important lessons from the Republic of Ireland that could be applied in Northern Ireland. The point is that for both economies we should look to further afield for inspiration.

On many key policy measures, the UK and the Republic of Ireland fall behind our European peers. One example is taxation. Both countries consistently raise much less revenue per person than comparator economies. This is particularly the case on taxes such as employer social insurance contributions. It should be the goal for both economies to seek a future in a new economic model which avoids the pitfalls of both approaches. It should be one which avoids the volatility and boom-bust nature of the Republic of Ireland and the stagnation and productivity slowdown of the UK.

At the NERI, we are currently developing such an economic model and policy framework for both economies on the island of Ireland. We need a new economic model that will allow us to thrive and also deal with the oncoming megatrends of the ageing society, climate change, deglobalisation and technological disruption. We would be delighted to discuss our work on this and answer any questions the committee may have.

Mr. McDonnell, do you want to add anything at this stage?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

No, not at this stage.

I will share my time with my colleague, Senator Blaney. I welcome our witnesses. We have often spoken to witnesses who come before this committee about the development of the all-Ireland economy since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. That is very evident to those of us who represent Border constituencies and there are quite a number of us on this committee. We are very conscious of the very welcome development of the all-Ireland economy. It is a seamless development that has been happening since 1998, not on foot of any economic model that was put in place but rather through practical business leadership and enterprise and general Government policies that facilitated enterprise and development, and we welcome that. I represent Cavan and Monaghan, the central Border area. As the all-Ireland economy develops and as we possibly see constitutional change on this island in the future, I do not want the Dublin-Belfast corridor to dominate. In the central Border area we do not have big centres of population. Senator Blaney's constituency in Donegal has Letterkenny. Derry has a good population axis with Strabane as well, but the central Border area comprising Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh and Tyrone does not have that. I would like to see us thinking about, at academic and research level, how we ensure regional disparities do not arise in the future. Thankfully, we have good enterprise in the counties I have mentioned, a lot of which are home grown. We did not get much inward investment because the Troubles were on our doorstep for decades. I would like to hear our guests' observations in regard to the need to try to eliminate as far as possible regional disparities and to ensure the less advantaged regions, those that do not have a significant population base, are not left behind as we look forward to the further development of the all-Ireland economy.

As the witness pointed out in his presentation, inward investment has been very important in this country. It is not just a question of the work on site at Intel in Leixlip, for example. There are so many subsuppliers, as we all know, spread throughout this country. Inward investment has a huge downstream effect as well. Mr. John FitzGerald, one of the representatives of the university sector, pointed out that were it not for the political leadership here over the years, we would not have those big international players coming here or even considering setting up businesses here to the benefit of our economy. That has been lacking in recent times in Northern Ireland and is one issue that was highlighted in particular. Mr. Mac Flynn suggested we should look beyond this island within academia to seek economic models and ideas worthy of emulation. Where are those models in practice at the minute that we can learn from?

Mr. Paul MacFlynn

I will take the first part of that question and let Mr. McDonnell come in on the second part.

In terms of the all-island economy, we would all have reasons for focusing on particular areas, but if there were to be a deepening of the all-island economy, whether under the current constitutional arrangement or something further, the real prize lies in the underdeveloped areas. The Dublin-Belfast corridor, which is often given more prominence than it is due, is the easy part of economic development. There is a Derry-Donegal divide on many key economic metrics, and raising the game there is where the actual productivity leap could come about. In that context, two years ago, we were involved in a project with UCD called the working in Ireland survey, which looked at job quality. It was only focused on the Republic of Ireland in that particular wave, but our intention when we do it the next time is to extend the analysis to Northern Ireland and to be able to do the survey there. Focusing on job quality is one of the areas which has been missing in looking at differences between North and South and, in particular, being able to focus in on particular regions. We want to boost the sample so that it is able to tell us more about those particular regions. A lot of the headline productivity data at sectoral level throws up results that we scratch our heads about. Sometimes it is when we actually go down into individual experience of work in areas that we are able to figure out whether that is related to training, management structures and so on. That is where the most fruitful research is going to be next, in terms of figuring out how to maximise the all-island economy.

On the point about foreign direct investment, we cannot look at the experience of the Republic of Ireland and ignore FDI. It would be ridiculous to do so. It must be borne in mind that Northern Ireland performs quite well, although not compared with the Republic of Ireland, relative to other European countries in terms of the level of output that is accounted for by foreign firms. The problem is that the quality of the foreign direct investment in Northern Ireland is of a different order to what is in the Republic of Ireland. It has not had the same level of pre-development, particularly in terms of education. While we cannot explain it all by way of a lack of physical or human capital or infrastructure, there is a degree to which what has been coming into Northern Ireland in terms of FDI has been low-hanging fruit and that comes back to the point about political stability. It is about going for easy wins rather than a longer term investment. Foreign direct investment is important, but if we look at the stage that both economies on the island of Ireland are at, we cannot take too many lessons from the Republic of Ireland now. They are in two very different states and to simply try to cog the Republic on corporation tax, for instance, and expect the same kind of speed of development in Northern Ireland would be unwise. Mr. McDonnell will respond to the Deputy's last question.

Mr. Tom McDonnell

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will comment on all three elements because they are somewhat linked. In terms of regional development, the Deputy mentioned the central Border area but, of course, regional development is relevant across the island. The midlands would be another good example of the need for balanced regional development. I am more optimistic about regional development now than I have ever been and the reason for that is technological change. What the pandemic showed is that a lot of jobs do not have to happen within a 15 or 30 minute commute of an urban centre. From a policy point of view, working from home, flexible hours and flexible types of work mean that the tyranny of geography that was there in the past, whereby jobs were sucked into urban centres, is likely to be less pronounced over the next 25 years than it has been over the 20th and early 21st centuries. Technological change will provide opportunities for people to stay in low population density areas and perform some types of jobs, especially in professional services but also in areas such as ICT. People can be coders anywhere now; they do not have to be in Dublin, Limerick or Belfast, for example. The tyranny of geography when it comes to things like manufacturing may still be there to a certain extent but not for many white-collar type jobs. Obviously, other forms of technological disruption, like artificial intelligence, create difficulties in terms of white-collar jobs but nevertheless, in terms of developing out new economic models, those opportunities for regions that have benefited less over the past half century are more pronounced than they have been historically.

On inward investment, I would agree with my colleague that it is very unfair to compare Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland because the latter is an outlier by global standards. It is really at the top of the tree in terms of global FDI, most of which comes from the United States. That investment is motivated by various factors, including access to the Single Market, the English language, the legal system and, of course, the tax system as it was in place and not just the headline rate but also the panoply of associated tax breaks that surrounded it. Of course, now we are moving to a new global corporation tax system which will mean that effective corporate tax rates essentially have a floor of 15%. Corporation tax will no longer be the basis upon which jurisdictions compete for foreign direct investment.

It is certainly something that will not be effective in Northern Ireland. In addition, the foreign direct investment will come only if the human capital base is there, and the human capital base is not necessarily there in Northern Ireland at the moment. That will be quite challenging. Attracting those types of jobs will require reforms to education policy, reforms in terms of infrastructure, investment spending and so forth.

What are the models that are there in practice? As it stands, it would be a mistake to identify one country internationally and to say, "We want those policies." Those policies develop in a path-dependent fashion, and in many cases the countries' policies now evolved from their economies in the 20th century. What we actually need now is, as Mr. Mac Flynn said in his opening statement, to pick and choose successful policies in particular policy areas and apply them to the Republic of Ireland and to Northern Ireland. In many ways they will be the same policy sets. Ultimately, it will be about not only sustainable and inclusive growth but also full and high-quality employment, as Mr. Mac Flynn has described.

Northern Ireland's problem, as the committee knows, is one of low productivity. That is about poor-quality jobs. It is about how we transform that into a different dynamic. Unfortunately, it is a longer-term game played over decades in terms of educational reform but also in terms of shorter-term gains possibly on the infrastructure side and leveraging possible strengths that are manifesting now. For example, Northern Ireland's unusual position as part of the Single Market for goods creates an opportunity there.

There is no one answer or perfect model. It is not Sweden, it is not the United States, it is not Germany or whatever it might be. It is about identifying successful policies in particular areas and being a magpie and applying them to Ireland but in a 21st-century context, which is changing all the time. We talk about a just transition for climate but we also have just transitions in respect of technological change and we have those pending megatrends in terms of ageing demographics and so forth that we will have to deal with. It is new policies to an extent that we will need, and we need to be agile and open in how we treat that.

The ten minutes are up, but I can make it 15 if you want to come in, Senator Blaney.

Yes, please, Chairman. I appreciate that. I thank both witnesses for coming here and I thank Mr. Mac Flynn for the presentation.

I am, however, a little taken aback by the approach NERI is taking as regards its presentation. Mr. Mac Flynn stated "Our mission is to produce research that will guide and inform policies that lead to the creation of sustainable and inclusive economies in both jurisdictions." I would have liked to have seen more beef to the bone in that context. There are a number of research elements, 62 areas, taking place through the shared island unit. There is very clear policy around that, not in the direction NERI is talking about here today but more in the direction of the all-island economy. I do not think anybody here would say that everything works very well down here and Northern Ireland should work in the same direction. It is not about that. As my colleague mentioned, I am from Donegal. The economy in Northern Ireland is really important to Donegal. When Northern Ireland does not work, that has a very serious impact on Border areas in a county such as Donegal. That is an area governed by the southern Government.

I have a very good example of the difficulties created there. For nearly 25 years, we have been fighting to have the N2-A5 upgraded and funds provided, etc., trying to create pressure where we can from a southern perspective to get that project moved forward. That is to better the region for all involved. Down south, there is the med industry and the tech industry, which is doing really well. In Northern Ireland, manufacturing is doing really well. We are not good in that area. Around mid-Ulster, it is now responsible for about 40% of exports. We have a lot to learn there from each other but if we do not do this in a joined-up approach, we are heading for the same old results over and over again. That is really the idea of the shared island unit. I am surprised the witnesses have not mentioned the unit in any part of their presentation.

However, I do want to discuss ways we can create a better means of moving forward. The north west is a very good example of that because, as regards the north-west city status region, on a cross-Border basis, politicians locally have been working in recent decades very closely and have moved on an awful lot of initiatives. That, to me, is the key element to driving the all-island economy. We have a lot of lessons to learn from that. Nobody is saying that it is all our way or all your way. It is a matter of collaboration and learning from each other in a way that is neither orange nor green but inclusive of all society, and that is where we need to be at. I do not see it as an argument about one model fitting all. Moreover, we are on a road of discovery here and are depending on organisations such as NERI to provide us with material to sit down and thrash out and say "That is an area we are not aware of" or "Maybe we need to learn more there". It is a matter of trying to find ways of moving forward in an inclusive way and to move away from this stop-start type of politics that exists in Northern Ireland and give people up there some hope.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I will take that first. Maybe we did not communicate it as eloquently as we should have but what we are arguing is that if we are talking about the all-island economy, in whatever context we are talking about it, we do not see it as extending one into the other, as has often been the case in discussions of this. We see the all-island economy as being greater than the sum of its parts. We see that as having a clear-eyed and honest appraisal of both economies and being very aware of both sets of strengths and weaknesses. Probably, the idea about having an overall policy framework and an approach is to say that the final destination we wish to see for both economies on the island of Ireland is the same but they are starting from two very different positions and, therefore, the specific policy prescriptions that will have to be applied in both jurisdictions will be very different. That necessarily means having two sets of policy prescriptions but arriving at the same place, and that-----

I am not sure anybody here has a problem with that but I would like to see NERI start to look at the detail of what is and is not working in Northern Ireland and what is and is not working down south. Let us then start to examine the areas worth looking at. What Mr. Mac Flynn is saying can act in a productive manner, and that is where I would like to have been today, rather than having this argument which is nearly about nothing because we are on the same page as the witnesses.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

As I said, our work has tended to focus more specifically on Northern Ireland-related issues for that economy and for issues in the southern economy and then comparing that analysis when appropriate to do so. However, we are quite clear that, whether it is work on productivity or on skills in Northern Ireland, where we have looked at the low skills equilibrium, whereas when we have looked at skills in the Republic of Ireland it is a question in many cases of overqualification, and we are doing work on that. Eventually, those two things will come together. We can talk about greater co-operation but the fact is that the all-island economy, as it currently stands, is not where it should be. It is not what was promised in the Good Friday Agreement. Therefore, to just continue on the path we are on now and hope that things will magically come to a better position is not the right approach. We have to look seriously at why that is not happening, why that natural synthesis is not taking place, and ask ourselves if it is because we are dealing with two very different situations, two different economies that have stayed very different for far too long, and that we need to make interventions in both separately. That does not exclude and in fact would help in bringing them towards something that looked more similar to each other.

I have to be conscious of the time. Dr. McDonnell, if you want to make a contribution, go ahead, but after that we will just move on, if that is okay.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I will be quick. We are indeed developing those policies, and our goal is, by late 2024 or early 2025, to have developed that economic model and policy set for the Republic of Ireland and for Northern Ireland, but it is work ongoing.

As Mr. Mac Flynn says, because the starting position for both economies is different in 2023, the policy solutions are not the same on both sides of the Border. There is a significant role for educational reform in Northern Ireland, in particular. The current structure there is not doing a good job to develop human capital, particularly for disadvantaged groups. As Mr. Mac Flynn says, the issue in the Republic of Ireland is that we are overqualified in certain cohorts and have an undersupply of people with qualifications in other areas, such as construction. In the Republic, it might be more about reforming whereas in the North, it might require more radical reform of the education of children. In the Republic, it may be more about reform at third level. In both cases, it will be about reforming the early stages and eliminating childhood poverty, which is the biggest barrier of all to educational performance and human capital development.

In both jurisdictions, it is about a focus on job quality, trying to understand what that means and developing a menu or a dashboard for what it means, and using those as the policy goals. Employment per se is not the fundamental issue or the quantum at the moment. The quality of employment in Northern Ireland and the Republic is problematic. While Northern Ireland trails the Republic in productivity, the domestic economy in the Republic also does quite poorly relative to western Europe. We need to understand what is happening there and whether there are things we can do. The answers are often very complex. For example, Ireland does poorly in labour force participation among people experiencing disabilities. We are an outlier in that regard. Part of our response will be about understanding what we can do and why the Republic is different.

There are no ten or 12 bullet points we can give the committee today. We are, however, developing a model that is designed not for 2023 but instead considers what we want to look like in 25 years' time. That is why we talk about policies around educational reform and consider whether they will manifest as benefits for up to 20 years.

When will we get sight of that?

I am sorry, lads.

When will we get sight of that report?

I am conscious that other people wish to come in. I am not trying to curtail debate. Perhaps we will park the Senator's questioning for the moment and pick it up in the second round, if that is okay. Deputy Feighan is, unfortunately, not online so I will take the Fine Gael slot. I have a couple of questions and will constructively challenge some of the things the witnesses have been saying. I welcome their work. I note, in particular, that they come from a trade union perspective, which I welcome. It is important to get that view.

One of the key things we heard previously from the unions related to the questions of pay, North and South, for the same jobs. I was surprised to hear the starting salary for a primary school teacher is far higher in the South than in the North. My question is practical and political. I know our guests are not politicians but are economists. However, the debate in the South and, I think, in the North is about what a new island would like, what the differences are now, how we could merge and which key indicators need to change in respect of some of the issues the witnesses have talked about, including reducing child poverty, inequality, ageism and all of that. From a practical point of view, are there studies, or is the NERI doing studies, on the convergence of the social welfare systems? I know people in different unions would not be interested in that. I am trying to ask the question in the right way. Should we not be able to examine coldly and calmly the differences for those who want change and what it might mean for the economies?

The other point I want to make is that since Brexit, there has been a lot more North-South trade. That has made a considerable difference because it has brought a new perspective to businesses, North and South. Perhaps the witnesses would like to comment on that. Those are areas I consider important.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

There is scope in unemployment benefit on the social welfare end. It was recently announced that we had the pay-related-----

That was announced yesterday.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

We were looking at this area during the pandemic, in particular, and one of the areas in which both the UK and Ireland stand out is with respect to the replacement rates for people who lose their jobs. We stand very far apart from other countries, with the exception of a handful of central and eastern European countries, in respect of the replacement rate we give people when they lose their jobs. Both economies stepped up massively during the pandemic. Both jumped up the league table. That was particularly true of the UK, which is bottom of the league table no matter what metric for replacement income one looks at. That is one area on which we could get some co-operation on reforms, or at least a move in that direction, particularly if there were to be a change of government in the UK.

This seeps into what Senator Blaney said about what happens when Northern Ireland does not work. We cannot divorce what Northern Ireland looks like now from the past ten years of UK fiscal policy. It is a region that is not only dependent on public services but whose private sector is also dependent on that public investment. That was stripped away for many years and the blame for that cannot be levelled at Northern Ireland. We have to imagine that in the short to medium term, there will be some relief for Northern Ireland in that regard. That would make co-operation in some of those areas more realistic. At the moment, some of the differences are so stark that it is not realistic to talk about joining the two together.

I appreciate what Mr. Mac Flynn is saying. Let us consider social welfare benefits, North and South. The old age pension is much higher in the South than in the North. There must be other areas where payments are higher in the North. I am looking at the brass tacks of change and what it might mean. A border poll will come at some stage in the future. It is in the Good Friday Agreement and we need to prepare for a border poll because it will happen at some stage. I appreciate our guests cannot take a political side but they can point out weaknesses and strengths in both economies.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

When we do the comparison of living standards between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, there is a tendency to say we have found a figure to show that one is better than the other. The situation is far more complex. It is better to look at particular family types and households. It depends on whether we are comparing the environment in rural or urban areas, North and South. Many people, particularly pensioners-----

Those are the issues we need to discuss.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

Many pensioners and people who are out of work and reliant on benefits would be better off in the system in the Republic of Ireland. Because of the way the taxation systems work, many middle earners in Northern Ireland would end up with less take-home pay because they would pay more tax, while also having less access to certain services, in the Republic's system. The situation is not binary.

I totally accept that and could not agree more. Is all that information out there and published?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

Let me put it this way: we have the beginnings of it. My colleague, Dr. Lisa Wilson, has done work to compare the poverty rates. No report has been published to directly compare the poverty rates in the two jurisdictions. People constantly talk about the North having far higher poverty rates but the truth is it is far more complicated when we look into issues of housing. We have a paper coming forward that will look to compare poverty rates in the two regions on a consistent basis. That has not been done before.

That is the sort of information people need. I welcome the institute's work in that regard.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

The other point is that it is difficult to directly compare incomes North and South because the cost of living is different. Northern Ireland has a lower level of productivity, which tends to go hand in hand with a lower cost of living, for various reasons. Part of the convergence has to involve the convergence of the two economies in terms of productivity and economic outcomes. In that context, the convergence on the social welfare side starts to make more sense.

If there was to be one principle that could be followed in terms of the destination North and South, it would be a consideration of whether welfare rates are adequate and how we establish what "adequacy" means for certain family types. In the South, but also in the North and indeed in the UK, overall, a technical exercise needs to be undertaken to identify the cost-of-living pressures for certain family types. Welfare payment rates should then be based on the outcome of that exercise to ensure they are evidence-based. This would be instead of a €5 or €10 increase annually, as there is in the South. There is even less of a debate in the UK in this regard. As the cost-of-living differentials diminish over time, this would also imply the minimisation of social welfare differentials over time. Again, though, this would likely be a 20-year process.

The other point raised when representatives of the trade unions were with us, including the teachers, was the discrimination in one jurisdiction concerning not having a qualification in Irish. I am all in favour of Gaeilge and all that, but this is an issue. We must put all these hidden barriers out there for this debate to address them. I know it is not going to happen immediately. There is not going to be a poll tomorrow or the day after, but we really need, and this is just my own honest opinion, a total focus on this context. It will help people to make their minds up. At the end of the day, this will be a decision for everybody North and South to make. I think we must do much more work in this regard and I welcome the work NERI is doing in this regard. It is really-----

Dr. Tom McDonnell

A related point is that even if there were to be a Border poll and it was successful, this would not necessarily mean every aspect of the welfare state would need to converge on day one. This could be done over another 20 or 30 years.

Yes, but those who have the most need are those who need to be most protected-----

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Yes, they do.

-----if that were to happen. These types of interventions must be ready, costed and thought through. Whatever the offer might be in such a poll, from whatever side, it must all add up at the end of the day.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

What is a good policy for 2040 for the Republic of Ireland is likely to be a good policy for Northern Ireland as well. I was on the Commission on Tax and Welfare, and it would be the same policy set we would want for the UK economy in terms of tax policy and welfare policy.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

This analysis was based on principles. What we can start with, therefore, is a set of principles about welfare and taxation.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Eventually, from a policy perspective, these principles should, in theory, naturally converge anyway because they are good ideas in and of themselves. This in itself would-----

Sure. I thank Dr. McDonnell. I call Deputy Tully.

In the opening statement, mention was made of a colleague of the witnesses being involved in the North's fiscal commission, which was established by the Minister, Conor Murphy. The report produced by that commission recommended 23 changes around further fiscal devolution for the North. To what extent does the lack of fiscal autonomy impact on the economy in the North and across the island?

Connected to this point, NERI has recently undertaken comparative research on the labour markets North and South. This has indicated there are significantly lower employment rates in the North. To what extent is this the result of the Executive's inability to tailor financial interventions in the context of impacting employment rates? I know many factors impact in this regard and the witnesses have probably identified quite a number of them. Regarding fiscal autonomy in the North, though, how does this aspect impact?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

On the fiscal commission, it did recommend income tax as being the most appropriate for devolution now. Regarding the point the Deputy made about the impact of not having fiscal devolution in terms of the Executive and the economy of Northern Ireland, it is one that may not have got as much comment at the time but I think it is the most important point. To a certain extent, we have a Northern Ireland Executive that is responsible for a huge amount of government spending. Much of this is tied to money used for economic development. For a normal government, what we would have in this situation would be a virtuous cycle, where it would spend money on industrial development and would make the investments, growth would occur in the economy, productivity would increase and, therefore, tax revenues would increase. These funds would then flow back into the government. This would give the right incentive structure for a government to carry out these policies.

The lack of this kind of feedback loop into the Executive has led to some very bad decision-making, particularly on the industrial development front. A report was recently undertaken into Invest Northern Ireland and its performance over the last number of years. I encourage everybody to read this report because it paints a very bleak picture of what impact government interventions on economic development have had in Northern Ireland. Research coming from Queen's University is examining management practices and it goes into further detail on this matter. To my mind, the benefit of fiscal devolution lies in making the state of the economy in Northern Ireland directly impact on the Executive itself. I say this because too often announcements from Invest Northern Ireland and other organisations refer to locations where X number of jobs have been created, but there is never talk about where jobs have been lost or about the overall change. The debate about economic development has been quite immature and it is this way because of the powers available to the Executive in this regard. To my mind, this would be the biggest prize from fiscal devolution.

Turning to the labour market, and in the context of the report in question, one of the very annoying things, if you are an economist, derives from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency being a part of the broader UK statistical structure and reporting labour market statistics slightly differently from how these are produced by the Central Statistics Office down here. Sometimes, the difference can be very minor, but, equally, at times they are big enough to effect a change in the comparative performance between the two labour markets. The statistic I like to highlight is economic inactivity. We talk about it the other way around down here. We talk about labour force participation, namely, those who are actively out in work or looking for work.

For years, we have talked about this economic inactivity as being the biggest drag on Northern Ireland, and it is. It is something we should talk about. When we compare the situation in Northern Ireland with other UK regions, it is terrible. When we look at and adjust the figures in the Republic of Ireland, however, so they are comparable to the statistical approach used in Northern Ireland, the Republic, up until just before the pandemic, had very similar, almost exactly similar, rates of economic inactivity, but this was never given the same kind of prominence down here. It is, though, one area where the two labour markets are actually much more like each other and extremely different from other UK regions. We have separate conversations about this issue, but it is one area where we need to bring the conversations together.

I am not sure if any of my colleagues want to come in on this point.

Is Mr. Molloy online?

I am sorry, I cannot see. I think Ms Gildernew is online.

I will wait until the next round if she wishes to contribute.

We cannot hear Ms Gildernew. She is on mute.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

I have been here in the office and the phone has been going constantly. I have not been able to keep as close an eye on the meeting as I would have liked. I have been listening carefully, though, from the beginning. I heard what was said in the opening statement about the two economies, North and South, having their own strengths and weaknesses and NERI comparing them to other economies. In this regard, some of the Scandinavian countries have policies we would like to emulate down the line post-unity. I refer to where there are strengths and weaknesses and mitigating them through unification. In this context, we still wish to ensure that our equality measures are front and centre in everything we do.

I tweeted a graphic this morning that is relevant to today’s discussion. A teacher’s starting salary in the North is just over £24,000; in Wales, it is just over £30,000; and in England, it is £30,000. The North is the lowest. In Scotland, it is £32,000 and in the rest of Ireland, it is almost £34,000. We have £24,137 and the South has £33,735. Like Brendan, I live in a Border constituency. I am closer to Emyvale than Cookstown. For any teachers looking at the lifestyle they would likely have on a Northern wage compared with a Southern wage, it is no-brainer to think they would be looking for work across the Border. I am sure the NERI has indicators on many different professions. We are certainly struggling in terms of healthcare workers. I note there are disparities between nurses’ starting salaries here and the rest of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Can the witnesses give us a flavour of where they are in all that research? Can it be shared with us? Are there specific gaps in starting salaries that we should be aware of? I thank them for their interesting contributions. If they could answer that, I would be deeply grateful.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I apologise. The Chair mentioned the teacher’s salary and I should say I am intimately acquainted with those figures from the beginning. The way to think about this is, as Dr. McDonnell mentioned earlier, there is a difference in cost of living North and South. It is not quite as simple as one up, one down. That will necessarily affect a difference in wages North and South. Looking across the economy and the private sector, you are more likely to see smaller wage gaps in occupations and sectors that are much more mobile. For example, construction is one where when there is a significant wage difference, it is much easier for that to be closed by the competition for workers that would take place. It is harder for work that is more location-based.

The public sector stands out from all of that. You only have to look at pay levels in the public sector and what has happened to them over the past 13 years. The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings, which came out last month, showed that the full-time public sector wage in Northern Ireland, when adjusted for inflation, is now back to the same level it was in 1998. Before the cost-of-living crisis and this more acute phase of it – bear in mind, the UK experienced a much higher level of inflation after 2016 because of the devaluation of sterling – year-on-year, public sector wage increases that have been possible under the UK budget settlement have been minimal. Therefore, wages have been losing buying power year after year. Add in the current cost-of-living crisis and that just has exploded. Yes, those are the figures for teachers. It is harder sometimes to compare when you get into civil service grades and stuff like that.

The public sector stands apart from the rest of the economy with regard to those wage differentials. However, that is not natural, rather, it is imposed. It is not occurring due to anything happening within the Northern Ireland economy. It is externally imposed and it is getting worse as we speak because of the current constraints on the Northern Ireland budget. The limited pay settlements that have been made in the public sector in the UK and England, particularly in the NHS, are not being given to Northern Ireland because it is being fiscally punished for having overrun in its previous year’s budget due to inflationary pressures. Those figures are stark but there is a much simpler explanation for those than there is for the rest of the economy.

The Deputy has three minutes left in her slot, if she wishes to continue.

The point was made that Ireland and Britain stand apart from our European peers on taxation. Could that be expanded on?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Absolutely. Regarding per capita public spending relative to all other countries in western Europe, we did much analysis on this, looking at the high-income western European economies – all EU economies up to 2019. Ireland and the United Kingdom stand apart from everyone else in terms of their low level of per capita public spending and their level of per capita Government revenue. It is Government revenue rather than taxes per se. It is on the social security contribution side where Ireland and the UK particularly stand out insofar as they are very low. It is not taxes per se; it is Government revenue. Much of this in the Republic would be employer PRSI, which basically accounts for the entirety of the gap with western Europe by itself. In the UK, it is a reasonably similar story, although not as simple as that. Ireland also stands out in terms of its very low level of taxes on capital stocks, which is a broad term that includes everything from property taxes to land taxes and things such as that. That is where we are.

The narrative mentioned earlier about nurses and teachers, or teachers specifically in this case, is that it is a fiscal policy decision. Because the UK engaged in a process of severe, wrong-headed austerity post 2010 and 2011, that has constrained the scope for public spending increases. Because the emphasis was on keeping taxes low, by and large, relative to other western European economies, that means the scope for public spending is constrained - because of the bond markets and so forth, as we all saw. They are low.

We are certainly a long way from that Scandinavian model that was mentioned. That has implications with regard to replacement incomes for workers who lose their jobs and what is feasible and possible in terms of capital and current spending across the board. The evidence suggests that the most competitive economies in the world are broadly the Scandinavian economies and the social democratic economies of northern Europe, which also happen to have the highest tax rates in the world. It is not simply the case of taxes versus economic competitiveness. It is much more complicated than that but it means the choices are available to us, if we were to choose to go down that direction. Those teacher salaries do not have to be that low in Northern Ireland, is another way to put it. It is a policy choice.

Public services are very poor in this country. I listen to families with children who are waiting assessment of need or are on hospital waiting lists. Our pubic services are totally underfunded. If we do not have decent taxation in the country, we will not be able to fund those. Many people would be quite happy to pay a little bit extra in tax if they knew they would get the public services they deserve, and that has been found in other countries as well. In Australia, for example, they did research on whether people would be willing to pay a percentage or two extra in tax in order to put in place proper services for disabled people, for example, and people said they were. What you have to pay for privately that is not available in the public sector will more than pay for itself if you have to increase taxes by a few percent.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Mr. Mac Flynn mentioned it is a different fiscal situation in Northern Ireland but one of the concerns is that the situation in the Republic of Ireland is potentially being masked by the potentially transitory corporation tax receipts that are about €11 billion in excess of what the Department of Finance can explain as of 2022. They may be a permanent boon with regard to higher tax receipts and those companies may have made their decisions about where they locate their assets and generate their corporate tax receipts, but we do not know yet. Therefore, it is another concern.

We also have an ageing population in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, so the number of working-age people relative to the number of people above the retirement age is going to decline in the decades to come. This is going to create additional fiscal pressure in the North and the South and will have implications for tax policy and public spending. It means it is all the more imperative that we deal with issues such as inactivity rates, employment and, ultimately, the productivity issue, which is a fundamental one for all economies and not just Northern Ireland. It is the fundamental issue in terms of generating well-being enhancements as the generations go by. Political issues are significant in this regard.

I call Claire Hanna.

Ms Claire Hanna

I came a little late to the meeting, so I am not sure if the issue I am raising was discussed already but I do not think it was. In Northern Ireland, there is now a deepening conversation about the overall funding settlement. This is not so much about the issues arising from the fiscal commission and further devolution, but about the need for a fiscal floor and the suitability of the Barnett formula. Zooming out from, as Mr. Mac Flynn put it, the punishment and punishing budget we have, I refer to an acknowledgement that the composition of the block grant is simply not suitable or adequate. Does Mr. Mac Flynn have a view on this point? What should the priorities be if the current stalemate morphs into a discussion about a new package or new arrangements for getting the Assembly back?

I would be interested in hearing some comments on housing. Anybody working in the North as an elected representative knows there is increasing pressure on housing that is now bubbling up to crisis point. This is especially the case in the private rental sector, which is a crushing experience for those individuals impacted. Increasingly, however, it is impacting both the ability to recruit students from overseas and investors in the same way as has been the case in Dublin. I refer to the inability of companies' workforces to be able to readily find somewhere to live potentially acting as a limiter on investment decisions. I wonder if Mr. Mac Flynn has a comment to make on this aspect and if there are steps that should be taken now to try to stop this problem in its tracks. Obviously, I am not asking him to comment on the wider housing context, but are there economic considerations that should be factored in whenever we talk about increasing the supply of housing?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I will start with the fiscal floor. I am glad it is getting much more discussion of late. We must, though, be careful. Regarding getting something along the lines of what was secured by Wales in terms of a minimum funding arrangement, it took a while to get that outcome. Equally, we must acknowledge that all it would do would be to stop the situation in Northern Ireland from getting any worse; it will not make it any better. We would do well to get such an arrangement, but we would want to limit our expectations in this regard.

Much of this context has been based on the recent fiscal council report, which looked at what the public spending needs of Northern Ireland were compared with England or the rest of the UK and stated that if spending in the UK were to be regarded as being at a level equating to 100, then Northern Ireland would be at 120. We would need about an extra 20% in spending in respect of the various factors that just affect Northern Ireland in terms of the provision of public services, as well as in the context of societal and demographic issues. There should be a chance to broaden this debate slightly and ensure we are looking at objective need and capturing the full extent of the spending requirements in Northern Ireland. I have been told by a colleague that trying to explain "objective need" to the UK Treasury is like speaking Swahili. I am not sure how successful we would be in this endeavour, but this should be the aim.

On the housing aspect, we published a report on this issue several years ago, before the current crisis in Northern Ireland's housing sector. Northern Ireland always looked very favourable in terms of its housing market compared with the Republic at that time, but we would have always known anecdotally of troubles looming. We went hunting in the data and the real problem we found was a cohort of people in private rental accommodation for whom, when we examined their incomes, the housing element was what was pushing them into poverty. Under any measure, they should have been in public housing, but because of the lack of growth and the actual reduction in public housing provision over many years, it was not enough to just be poor to get into public housing; it was necessary to have a certain number of other household traits as well. It was this group that had fallen into private rental accommodation because the public housing supply was not available and we did not cater for those people.

What has happened in the UK overall but where Northern Ireland stands out from all the other regions is the escalation in the cost of private rental accommodation. Several things are going on in this context. The first was the pandemic. Interest rates have also increased. This has happened much faster for the Bank of England and this feeds into mortgage repayments and onto the people who are letting out properties. Almost a perfect storm has taken hold in Northern Ireland's private rental market. This was a problem to begin with, but we did not tackle it and it has now become so much bigger. The intervention required is the same, namely, the provision of public housing. It was public housing before, and it is public housing now.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr. Mac Flynn.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Obviously, in the Republic of Ireland, the situation is quite different, and qualitatively so. There has been a housing failure, of various forms, for about a quarter of a century now, from boom to bust. We are still recovering from that bust. The problems in the private rental sector are long-standing, with rents having greatly outstripped wage growth over the last decade. This situation obviously impacts standards of living and disposable incomes. The housing failure, or housing crisis, in the Republic of Ireland now is a significant constraint in terms of the ability to attract workers from abroad. This obviously has implications for investment.

When companies invest in the Republic of Ireland, they often do so knowing the workers they will require are not available and it will be necessary to attract migrants from outside the country. These companies are coming here for various reasons to do with tax or whatever it might be. There are no places for workers to live in the greater Dublin area now, and this is making investment all the more challenging. Housing, therefore, will be a big constraint on our ability to grow the economy over the next five or six years, particularly in the greater Dublin area.

Again, we see this aspect as being a part of industrial policy. We talked earlier about the various qualifications that workers have in the Republic of Ireland being the issue, whereas in the North it may be more systemic. The construction sector is one specific context in the South which is a problem. The issue of overqualification or misqualification of workers in the South is becoming a problem now. We know the world is moving away from globalisation. In fact, foreign direct investment may become a slower trickle in any event globally over the next decade or two compared to what it was from the 1990s. This development would have implications for the North and the Republic. If the Republic, however, does not even have places for workers to live, it is not going to be able to attract foreign direct investment at the same level as before.

Ms Claire Hanna

Absolutely. I thank Dr. McDonnell and Mr. Mac Flynn.

Next I call Deputy Wynne, who has been waiting online to contribute.

I thank the witnesses for coming to this meeting and for their opening statements. It has been a very worthwhile discussion so far and has touched on various topics impacting our constituents North and South. It may not have been what the members of the committee were expecting to hear, as we are solely focused on unification and what that might look like. I often get asked how we can make that aim happen and what steps it is necessary to take to achieve this goal.

This conversation has been very worthwhile in that regard and has triggered quite a bit of interesting conversation.

My first question is on corporation tax. Our guests have mentioned that devolving corporation tax is not advisable, is a distraction and we should look further afield for comparisons. I ask them to make some suggestions and apologise if this issue has already been covered. The Scandinavian model has been mentioned. Our guests have mentioned that NERI will have its own economic model next year and it is working on that now. Is it possible for this committee to get NERI's model to discuss it once that work has been completed?

I will ask all of questions and our guests can answer them all at the same time. The picture our guests have painted is important. I refer to the statement that the differences between the North and South have been too different for far too long. I believe there is a need to quantify and measures those differences. Interestingly, our guests mentioned that there areas where there are comparable similarities and the one that I noted was economic inactivity. Has NERI, in its work, put together a list of issues? If so, as it would not involve too much work, I ask the witnesses to supply a list of the areas which are comparable, such as economic inactivity, and those which are not.

Housing has been mentioned and is a hugely important issue. I have had engagements with representatives of IBEC and local businesses in County Clare who have told me that housing is a massive issue. A lot of these companies and corporations have had to become landlords, against their own wishes because they never envisioned a time when they would have to do so, but in order to secure their workforce, they have had to take such a step. The second issue they have raised with me is access to childcare. They have said that when they have finally been able to put in place the housing answer for the workers they are trying to bring into the country, the next question is whether there is access to childcare because what we have found in many locations, and in rural locations in particular, is that they are closing down. Childcare provision is another area of concern for me. Our guests have also mentioned the differences with the cost of living and the rates of social welfare. We know that there is a huge difference between North and South in social welfare rates. I may come back in. based on responses.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

On the question of corporation tax, we said it before it was cool, and before the fiscal commission reported on it, mostly because we had been examining, even if one were able to devolve the rate of corporation tax, the whole other suite of taxation measures that simply would not have been available to the Northern Ireland Executive. Even if it was to have worked, in terms of attracting, the proposition was not going to be the same North and South. Also, when one devolves the fiscal power from Westminster to Stormont, the Stormont budget takes the hit if things do not work out as well. Consequently, if the extra revenue generated by the cut does not materialise, then that is an immediate call on money which would ordinarily go to public spending. Even from a distributional point of view, it was quite a complex proposition.

The Deputy mentioned the labour market and asked about areas where there is a similarity in economic inactivity. I am glad that the Deputy mentioned childcare next because childcare is another area where there is a similarity and the lack of affordable childcare is feeding the inactivity rate on both parts of the island. In England, there is provision for a certain number of hours of free childcare for every child, which is funded by the state. Northern Ireland, under the Barnett formula, gets a consequential of that. It calculates what is that cost per head in England and says we will give Northern Ireland that same amount of money. Unfortunately, that money just goes into the pot and no, there is no commitment. That money is not earmarked or safeguarded for childcare and simply goes into the general public service budget. At a time when all budgets have been so constrained, introducing a new programme of childcare has not been able to get a call on finances.

The labour market report we did last month was just a North-South comparison on a few of the key measures. The next phase of that report will look at the gender differences and will drill down a bit more into the economic inactivity to be able to put more meat on the bones of that one. That is firmly our intention of where we are going on that but that naturally feeds into the childcare issue.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

On childcare, as the Deputy will know, Ireland and Great Britain have some of the highest childcare costs in the world as a percentage of average income, which is a huge problem. One also has a childcare sector that does not make sense for the workers. There is a very high level of churn in that sector. It does not even necessarily work for businesses themselves. As we have a form of market failure where we have a bad outcome for everybody, a larger role for the State will be required.

We know that caring will over the next 20 years be one of the growing sectors of employment. As an ageing population will by itself require that, we need to get to a place where caring is a valued and recognised profession and that churn is no longer there. Is it sustainable to have high rates of pay and a profitable business at the same time? Very possibly not. Again, the State needs to play a larger direct role in caring.

On the activity and inactivity piece, the high cost of childcare and a lack of availability of childcare are obviously direct causal factors in lower activity rates for certain groups such as, for example, lone parents but also sometimes second earners. Obviously there is a hugely gendered impact here as well. Solving the childcare issue is crucial within that particular debate.

Obviously housing issues affect the ability to attract inward migration but it also affects migration within the island itself. That leads to lower employment rates and higher levels of inactivity because people simply cannot move to Dublin, Galway or wherever. One may also be in a location where those jobs are not congruent with a person's skill set, which is problematic.

On the childcare piece, reforms in terms of flexible hours, days and location of work help to ameliorate the problems caused by the lack of availability and the cost of childcare.

On devolving corporation tax, it is important to understand why it worked for the Republic of Ireland. The reality is that those corporation tax policies have evolved over more than 60 years. They have gone through a number of phases. In many cases a lot of the major, huge named companies that the Deputy would know of have been here since the 1990s or the early 2000s when different corporation tax policies were allowed and when there was a lot less attention on what the Republic of Ireland was doing. Now, as part of the OECD process, those behaviours have been clamped down on to a large extent and to be fair, the Republic of Ireland does not necessarily engage in those practices as it did in the past. In the 2020s and 2030, with a minimum of 15% effective corporation tax rate, it is not possible for Northern Ireland to do the types of things that the Republic of Ireland did in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. Consequently, it would not be this silver bullet that would help the economy. As Mr. Mac Flynn has said, the lower corporation tax rate, if it were fully devolved, would in the immediate few years lead to a reduction of tax revenues, which would mean less money for public services, infrastructure and all of those things. It may actually turn out to be a bit of a disaster.

We have seen some states in the US having to reverse tax cuts that had been implemented on the assumption they would pay for themselves. Tax cuts very rarely pay for themselves. There may be some temporal exceptions based on specific circumstances but I do not believe that will be the answer to getting those big FDI companies into Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland was really lucky because of its timing. When it became part of the Single Market, a lot of US multinationals parachuted into the country to benefit from being within that market. There were low taxes, low wage rates, high levels of unemployment and a lot of other advantages. Those companies are there now and it is unlikely that historical accident will be repeated. It is unlikely those policies would be as successful, or indeed successful at all, for Northern Ireland.

Deputy Tóibín is present. It is back to Sinn Féin and then he may come in after that. Is Deputy Wynne happy with that?

Yes. I thank the Chair. I also thank the witnesses for their responses, which are much appreciated and have been very interesting.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and all the work they do. I have their other paper here as well. The piece of work we are doing in this committee is looking at the constitutional future. We are not looking at patching one area onto another or whatever; we are looking at something new. What has come across really strongly from some of the contributors we have had to date is how from the foundation of the State we have never underpinned our systems with the values we have as an island and as a people. We have a real opportunity now to do that.

I am trying to remember the name of the two professors we had at one of the sessions, though the Cathaoirleach may put me right on them. What they were saying about taxation related to the link between taxation and welfare. Dr. McDonnell is rightly saying we cannot take taxation on its own or welfare on its own; they must be linked. The report done by the Fiscal Commission NI, which the witnesses were involved in, was really good. It recommended that "the UK Government instigates a review to consider developing and implementing a shared institutional framework for fiscal devolution across the UK". It is very important as a context. That might include income and corporation tax, but all that must be looked at in the round because everything knits together. I ask the witnesses to comment on that. I ask them to also comment on the economic model they are working on right now for a policy framework for both economies on the island. How does that fit into the macroeconomic model developed by the ESRI and IBEC as well? From doing my research, I am conscious the data gaps, especially in the North, are crazy. It is crazy for us trying to do the work we do. The difficulties with data with integrity are such an impediment to the work the witnesses do. Will that help the work they are doing? The other macroeconomic model that has been done will help that. That is one aspect.

Have the witnesses any measurement of political stability in the North? I could not find one. I can find the UK one and the Irish one, but I cannot find one for the North, so it is just about that as a feeder of FDI. FDI will change and it is as Dr. McDonnell said regarding the high-value jobs that are needed in the North. In particular with Joe Kennedy, there is an opportunity to do that, with the US being the largest country of origin. If we do not use the unique position the North is in at the moment with its access to GB and the EU for goods, we will fail there. I would not like to see FDI pushed down but the drivers of FDI are the real factors we have to examine such as the needs the witnesses were talking about and examining that. There is that whole link into DEIS and how we capture that and work on it as well.

Have the witnesses an effective tax rate for the North as it is at the minute? I am also interested in what Mr. Mac Flynn said about management practices and how they feed into FDI. There is a lot there, but I am really keen to hear about their model and where it is going in all this.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

To be clear from the start, maybe we should talk about our project as more of a framework. We are not talking about piecing together the Northern Ireland economy and the Republic of Ireland economy and asking what would happen if we did this to it what would happen. In the infancy of the NERI, we looked at doing a macroeconomic model for Northern Ireland and data gaps put that one into the ditch. That is why I applaud the audacity of the ESRI and its partner, NIESR in the UK. I imagine that model will end up looking like a regionalised version of the UK NIESR model and it will be informative, but as for looking for policy direction on where we want both economies to go, the type of macroeconomic model they are building is useful and it is good for evaluating and looking at what particular policies would impact on the economy. We are looking at saying this is the model of an economy we would want for both. Dr. McDonnell and I had a paper out last year called Resilient Economy. It is maybe the taster for what the framework will ultimately end up being. For us that is the more worthwhile piece. Wherever somebody sits on the constitutional issue, we could take the framework and say that somebody living in the North wants that region to succeed economically no matter what its constitutional arrangement. Obviously, it will be different under a united Ireland than it would be as it currently is, but it is about saying even when talking about the all-island economy we are pushing both economies in the same direction. There are two very different positions and we do not want either one to stay where they are. We want to converge on something we believe would be better.

On the fiscal commission and its report, it was a very good piece of work and has led to much more government honesty about finances in Northern Ireland. My colleague, Dr. Lisa Wilson, who sat on the commission, said trying to get data from Whitehall was like getting blood from a stone. I have spoken to colleagues in Scotland as well. It is much further down the road when it comes to fiscal devolution. It has taken certain welfare payments, but has also looked at VAT, which is much more complicated area. On welfare in particular, Scotland has taken over responsibility for certain welfare payments. Its administration had a huge amount of trouble getting information from the Department for Work and Pensions. It does not take a lot to think that possibly within certain institutions there is a lack of enthusiasm for much of the devolution being proposed and even for some that has already taken place. While I see the fiscal commission's report as a very good one and commend it highly to anyone to read, it should be the starting position and we should be having a much bigger conversation about what that would look like. To a certain extent, Scotland was made an example of in terms of some of the decisions it took on devolution. That is very irresponsible but we should be looking at safety measure built in to any devolution to protect the already depressed level of public spending that has been there in Northern Ireland.

That goes without saying and I think it will be done. Has NERI as an organisation, as well as other organisations operating in the North, such as Queen's University, Ulster University and others, collectively requested that the data be done in a way that things can be measured? This is part of the problem. If we cannot measure what is going on, we are never going to end up with the solutions.

What people want to know is whether they would be better off in a united Ireland or staying the same. We have to be able to answer those questions. What this committee is trying to do is to be able to objectively answer those questions while looking back. It is almost like a protectionism of the data so that people do not know. If they knew they would be able to find solutions and be in charge of their own affairs. There is something weird going on here.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I fully agree with that and that is a problem across the water. Put it this way, as august an organisation we like to think we are, if a fiscal commission put in place by the Northern Ireland Executive is still getting the run around from Treasury, what chance do we stand of getting these numbers? I know the committee previously discussed the subvention at length and sometimes I do not want to discuss it because there are too many caveats and they are overlapping and contradictory.

Some of the advice we get is that it will not be as important as people think it is as it relates to the final outcome. That is what some of the independent economists say.

It is getting better and, as we have the macroeconomic model, that will continue. However, it is almost off the table in that it has been examined to the extent where this €10 billion figure is, in my opinion, crazy and lazy.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

Yes. The furthest I would go is to say that it is not certainly not €10 billion but I would not say what it is.

We can dispute the two but if we had the information we would have the figure. People should have access to their own information but I do not want to get too bogged down in that. I need Mr. Mac Flynn to talk a bit more about NERI's own economic model so I have it straight in my head.

Does Ms Begley want to come in on this? There is five minutes left in this slot.

Ms Órfhlaith Begley

If Deputy Conway-Walsh wants to work away with her questions, I can come in at the end. I will be quite brief anyway.

That is fine. I wanted to make sure Ms Begley knew the time was there for her.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Essentially, what we are doing is engaged in a process of looking deeply at the academic literature for what different economic systems are doing around the world. Obviously, many of those systems that exist at the moment were developed in the 20th century so what we are attempting to do is trying to gather the information, the data, and the theories in dozens of different areas and use them to develop what is probably better categorised as a new economic framework. It is the same framework for the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as to the destination but because the starting places are different, the immediate policy prescriptions for the North and for the South are different but with a view to getting to the same destination.

Essentially, we are developing it around four pillars. First, is sustainable and inclusive growth. We are looking at economic growth policy for different economies over time. It has to be sustainable. There is no point having the type of boom economy we had in the Republic, say, in 2005 to 2007. There are certain types of growth that are sustainable and good and those are generally based upon productivity. We keep banging on about productivity because it is ultimately the secret sauce of everything, but it also has to be inclusive growth. It cannot simply be growth for the top 10% of the population; it has to be broader based than that.

Is this right across the island?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Of course. The second pillar then is about full, but also high-quality, employment. We do not want to go down the low-road model that the UK has pursued since the early 1980s. We want a high-road model based upon high-quality jobs and that takes you more in the direction of Scandinavia with active labour market policies, high wages, high-value-added activities, and big implications for the type of industrial policy. It is not just about developing any job. Sometimes developing some types of jobs actually boxes you off from going in a different direction so we need to be much more selective because that will ultimately decide the standard of living for people on the island and certain sectors can be traps. The tourism sector, for example, is generally regarded in the economics literature as a trap because it tends to be low-value-added jobs that are often seasonal in nature, and if industrial policy is pushed in that direction, it is almost a dead end. However, that is just one example.

The third pillar is about security so that is really about the welfare state. It is about poverty, the social wage, adequate income supports, child supports, and working age pension. It is about universal basic services and intergenerational equity and all of those policies coming together, which ultimately will be the same policies North and South, at least in the longer picture. It is very much not so in the shorter picture in all cases.

The fourth pillar is about stability. This is about price stability, environmental and biodiversity stability, and fiscal stability, which is obviously very much in the news at the moment. It is also about this notion that economic stability does not imply stagnation; in fact it requires dynamism. We cannot remain bent on maintaining the existing system as it is. We have to constantly evolve and engage in this process of creative destruction, but to do that, we have to have the security in place that protects people from those transitions.

That then takes us into this conversation about just transition, which people associate with climate change but actually applies to all economic changes that have happened over the past 200 years and will continue to happen over the next 200 years. We are very concerned about a lot of the technological disruptions that are going to happen over the next ten or 20 years as we move through the fourth industrial revolution. AI is the classic example. How does one respond to that? Is it a complement or is it a substitute for work? Also, regarding climate change, green jobs versus brown jobs, and the huge implications for agriculture and agrifood, how should we respond to those questions? It is about attempting to answer those, building that framework and putting it in place, which will hopefully then be helpful for policymakers.

One second. I have a time problem here. Ms Begley was here from the start and Deputy Tóibín has come in so this 15 minute slot is up. I want to make sure everybody gets to speak. Will the Deputy help me with this? I have to ask a question of the Tánaiste in the Dáil as well. That is the other pressure. What is the fairest way to do this for everybody?

I can sit in if the Cathaoirleach wants. I want to say one sentence that is really important.

The Deputy should go ahead. Will I take Ms Begley or Deputy Tóibín first?

What Dr. McDonnell is saying is really important. Will he send a note on his new model and on those four pillars to the committee for the report it is doing, because that is exactly the way forward? At that, I will be quiet.

What I propose we do here-----

Ms Órfhlaith Begley

If it helps, I am happy for Deputy Tóibín to go ahead of me. If he wants to go ahead, that is 100% okay.

That is fair enough. Go ahead Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh took the Chair.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Órfhlaith. Go raibh maith ag na finnéithe ar fad as ucht an cur i láthair iontach sin. Bhí sé an-suimiúil. I had a prior engagement to which I had to attend so I apologise for missing a bit at the start of the meeting but I thank the witnesses for the details that have been given. There is a lack of data, North and South, on certain issues but if there was any comparative analysis around housing, health, education, standards of living, and infrastructure in the North and South, I would be very interested in seeing where we could access that data. Much of the discussion has been about the funding mechanism of the North of Ireland and obviously we have a situation there where budgets are experiencing massive holes. The Northern Minister for Education, Michelle McIlveen, indicated that there was a €750 million hole in the education budget, which, given the circumstances, means cutbacks to that level. The focus is on where those holes are and what costs they will result in in the delivery of services in the North. Obviously, the Barnett formula is a disaster for the North but in Scotland, for example, they raised approximately 20% of their funds through local taxation and revenue powers. In Wales, it is about 10%. In the North, it is only about 5% or 6% and indeed, everybody is scratching around now to see can they increase hospital car parking fees, water rates, etc. Does it not make sense that we start to focus on the evolving revenue raising powers from London to Belfast in the future?

Corporation taxes were mentioned. My understanding is that corporation tax is actually devolved and if we had a functioning parliament at Stormont, there is a possibility the Executive there could decide on corporation taxes.

Do not get me wrong; I think the South's corporation tax rate is still too low at 15%. However, we need to look at equalising taxes across the Border. I have listened to people state that corporation tax is not a silver bullet and does not work everywhere but it does work in many places too. Many places have had some fall in corporation taxes with some significant increase in the level of taxes that are generated. Given the fact that the North is probably a lower cost base economy now in terms of rent and wages, equalising those corporation taxes would make the North far more accessible and attractive for international investment.

Has much work been done on individual synergies that could be achieved between North and South? There is much duplication in the delivery of services. We have two education systems, two healthcare systems and many other areas, such as agriculture, are delivered in duplicate form. We have the likes of Daisy Hill Hospital , Newry, which is under fierce pressure in terms of losing key health services. On the other hand, we have Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, which is less than an hour down the road and is hammered in terms of pressure. Is there some way that the Southern State could provide a certain amount of money to enable Daisy Hill to operate to its proper level, while allowing patients in the Cavan, Monaghan and Louth region to also access the hospital for services? Is there anything like that on a specific micro-level being done in terms of research?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

For much of the data on health outcomes, we get Northern Ireland as part of the UK. On education, for the OECD data, Northern Ireland was included in the sample for some of the years when surveys were done. We have some good information on that point. We have built on that information to look at skills and the under-utilisation or mismatch of skills within the Northern Ireland economy. A labour market with low skills ends up having low value-added employment. This then feeds back into fewer people gaining skills, which can result in a downward spiral. I am not aware of anything specific regarding the health outcomes.

On the funding mechanism for Northern Ireland, everyone is coming around to the idea that the Barnett formula has had its day. It probably had its day a long time ago but now this idea is finally coming to the fore. On devolving taxes, the idea of having an Executive which is raising revenue does make for better policy, particularly in terms of economic development. I would argue this has been one of the Executive's biggest downfalls. However, there are real risks involved in devolving taxes. For example, income tax was devolved in Scotland. The Scottish economy ended up growing at a slightly slower rate than the rest of the UK economy. Scotland consequently ended up having a shortfall in tax revenue raised, even though it increased tax rates. The problem is that the UK should have adopted a federal system a long time ago. Like other federal systems, such as Germany and Australia, it could have had proper systems in place where states or regions or whatever they are called have their own revenue raising powers and an equalisation process occurs between them. This has not happened and is never going to happen in the UK. That is why I deal with issues of fiscal devolution very cautiously.

The issue of corporation tax is slightly more nuanced in that the Executive has permission to seek the devolution of corporation tax. It has never exercised the right because it is contingent on Northern Ireland having a stable funding situation in order to ask for it. It has not had anything like a stable funding situation since that was granted.

Any of the research I have seen on foreign direct investment shows that for the companies Northern Ireland should be seeking to attract, corporation tax is not coming up as an issue any more. Previously it was on the agenda but it has fallen down several rungs of the ladder of priorities. That is why I talk about it as being a distraction from other policies where we could be making serious inroads with those investors.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I will make a brief point about corporation tax. The global minimum effective tax rate will be 15%, at least for very large companies. Ireland has been able to maintain an effective tax rate well below 15% for a number of years. In fact, it is below 12.5% for many of these companies. Ireland has enabled this through various tax games to ensure very low effective tax rates. That is attractive to those particular companies, of course. They are the ones that tend to generate a lot of corporation tax receipts anyway by locating assets here. The current game is around capital allowances. Northern Ireland would not necessarily be able to engage in the same race to the bottom tactics and therefore would not be able to put quite as compelling a package together for FDI decision-makers in the same way that the Republic of Ireland was able to do in 1990s and 2000s.

As those companies are in the Republic of Ireland now, I am not by any means suggesting they will leave because obviously, Ireland can now no longer be undercut. However, it may mean that the Republic will gain a smaller slice of FDI into the future. The point is that having the floor of 15% now rather than 10% or 12.5% makes the significance of corporation tax less prevalent going forward compared to what it was in the past. Comparing 35% in one country versus 12.5% is very different. My expectation is that we will probably continue to see a broad trend of decline in corporation tax rates around the world. There will be somewhat of a convergence towards 15%. What will be important in the future will not be the rate per se, but also things like research and development tax credits. These credits can be used by companies against their corporation tax burden to reduce the rate. That is contingent upon research and development being located in Ireland or using some type of cost sharing agreement in the United States through a subsidiary and allocating the costs to the company. That could also be done in Northern Ireland, but ultimately it will depend on the corporation tax regime as established in London for all of the tax breaks, rather than just the headline rate. It is not that corporation tax has no impact upon FDI, but we believe it will be much less significant into the future and there is a lot surrounding it.

The Deputy mentioned Northern Ireland having a low-cost economy, which is correct. It also has the human capital issue that we pointed out earlier on. This means that certain types of FDI are unlikely to come to Northern Ireland. Other types may but they will be different in composition to the types of firms coming to the Republic of Ireland, where the human capital base has been long-established for two or three decades. This is not to say that Northern Ireland could not get the same points in the longer term. Of course it could but it would be the work of a decade or more to achieve.

From my perspective, FDI is typically considered as an interim economic policy. Ideally, countries normally use FDI to get to a certain stage of development, and then start to develop their own indigenous economy, which is obviously far stickier, less mobile and more stable. Obviously, that is the route the economy in the South needs to go on. It is surprising in a way that the North has not experienced the same level of positive FDI in recent times. One of the barriers to that is human capital.

Are there others? What is the solution to the human capital, let us say, problem there? Is it simply that the education system needs to be ramped up to provide a larger number of people with the skills necessary to attract foreign direct investment? Is the infrastructure strong enough? It is a key element in attracting investment and productivity. What material steps could an Executive in the North take to improve key elements of the economy so it can be brought up to a higher level of FDI?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

There are some practical steps. An obvious one involves reform of the education system in Northern Ireland, such as getting rid of the eleven-plus, having mixed ability schools, not throwing people away at the age of 11 and not having a leaving certificate, effectively, at the age of ten. That would be an important one. It is about retaining people in school through secondary. In third level, it means building up the university sector in Northern Ireland, providing incentives to encourage people to stay there rather than leaving for Great Britain and-or providing incentives to encourage those people to come back to Northern Ireland. On fiscal policy, greater spending on enabling infrastructure is also important. That has implications for either current spending or tax policy. It brings us back to the conversation we have been having. It involves building up an innovation system and breaking the bad equilibrium, which Mr. Mac Flynn discussed, with low levels of qualification, meaning there is low valued added industry, which in turn means people have no incentive to get high levels of education. You have to break that somehow. That requires a radical shift in policy, probably starting at university level, trying to develop high potential startups and providing incentives for people in Northern Ireland to do STEM. That could include paying them to do those courses in college and, if necessary, to stay in school at the age of 17 and 18. It is about encouraging people to do everything they can to build up their human capital, which has positive externalities for the rest of society. They do not get all the benefits; they spill over to everyone else. There is an argument for going hard at that. Those are practical steps. They may be slightly unexpected answers but they are the types of practical steps one could take. The results could take a generation to manifest in getting productivity levels up to where they might be in the rest of western Europe. That is okay. It is about catching up. You cannot catch up in a single year. You have to be willing to do the hard yards. It is about strategic policy rather than tactical shifts on a year-to-year basis.

Political stability is another obvious matter that might hold back investment in Northern Ireland. If you do not know what is going to happen, why on earth would you invest in a place when you do not know what its policies will be or what its political structure will even be 12 months down the line? Investors want stability and certainty. It is extremely important if you are to make those investment decisions.

I am in the Chair so I get to ask a couple of bonus questions, if that is okay with whoever is left on the line. When will the economic model and framework on which the NERI is working be complete?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

We are supported in this regard by trade unions. We are also going out to consult widely around the country, North and South. We are quite keen on the entire, all-island, regional element. The research phase will take at least a year. We will look to have early drafts by that stage and it can go through several drafts after that. We will have something we can share within a year.

I know a lot of work goes into these things. Does the NERI have concerns, because of changes related to Brexit, about the diminution of workers' rights in the North and the impact that might have? We need a congruence of workers' rights across the island, like an all-island charter of rights that would incorporate those things.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

When ICTU was at the committee, I am sure it would have said that we take a lot of comfort in the fact that employment law and rights are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Scottish Trades Union Congress is currently lobbying to get the same for the Scottish Government in Edinburgh. When we look at where the Republic of Ireland may be going on workers' rights with the EU directive, things may not get worse in Northern Ireland but it will start to get left behind. We see the EU directive on greater collective bargaining not just as how trade unions see it, in terms of greater democracy in the workplace, but as we spoke about earlier, raising job quality, retention, greater investment in skills within the workforce and being able to deal with AI or whatever is coming down the tracks. Depending on whether there is a change of Government in the UK, Northern Ireland may be able to step up the ladder slightly but will always be falling behind the South in that regard. That would be a concern because workers' rights at EU level are going in a much more positive direction. We see clear economic benefits to that, not just for workers but for job quality and the impact that would have on the economy as a whole.

Concerning trade and having access to the EU and GB markets for goods, what will the impact of not having access to services be on FDI and supply chains?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

I always answer this question by saying the Single Market for services in the EU is not what it should be anyway. Recent reports on the Single Market point to the lack of complete competition within services. I do not see it as much of a direct issue now but if the EU were to make the Single Market for services much more embedded in the services, particularly consumer services, Northern Ireland would not get any worse but would possibly lose out on benefits occurring in the South.

I did not realise Ms Begley wanted to contribute. I did not see her on the screen. I think she is gone now. I apologise. What is the effective tax rate in the North as it is?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

We always say not to look at effective tax rate but revenue raised per person. I do not have the exact figures but you enter the higher tax bracket much earlier in the South than in the North. The income tax system in general is more progressive.

Is there an effective tax rate for FDI in the North?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

For corporation tax?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

Talking about political stability, corporation tax was caught up in the mini budget last year. It was forecast to go down. It is now back up to 19% or 20%, I think.

What about the effective rate, where you appear within knowledge development box and R and D?

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

Corporation tax in the UK was on a downward trajectory for the first half of the past ten years. People asked what difference would it make in the end to Northern Ireland. At the same time, it reduced the cost of doing it. Now, it has gone back up. If there has been an impact of Northern Ireland having lower corporation tax as part of the UK for a number of years from 2010 on, it has not shown up in FDI or productivity statistics.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

To be fair, that was in the context of Brexit, the huge damage to desirability from an investment perspective and the uncertainty around the UK's position in the Single Market, customs union or whatever.

I would imagine that was a huge drag on investment although Mr. Mac Flynn might have a different view on that. Higher interest rates in recent year are likely to be a dampener on investment generally around the world over the next 12 months.

We talked about education and the labour force. How important is student mobility across the island? In particular, how important is it that we stop the brain drain and how important is encouraging students to make this island the destination? That is particularly in relation to students who go away and do not come back. This is especially in the context of high-value jobs.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

At the moment we talk about the brain drain being students from Northern Ireland who go to university or to their first job in Britain and do not come back. Having that kind of mobility in an all-island context is very important. There are a lot of soft cultural issues there although they may not be hard economic barriers to that greater mobility. I would say it should not be taken in isolation though. It would be a terrible thing to replace a brain drain to Britain from Northern Ireland with a brain drain from North to South and people not coming back. Doing this would involve tackling mobility but also tackling the dynamic within the Northern Ireland economy where skills acquisition is not being rewarded in the labour market. That means having a much more co-ordinated approach to the economy where when planning out skills programmes, one has employers, unions and the Government in the room and everyone is agreed on the direction of travel with regard to particular skill sets for which we are willing to put money into investing in education courses. Then there would be employers and possible investors saying how things are joined up. The economic strategy for Northern Ireland should also be the skills strategy. The two cannot be taken in isolation. If you can get that level of co-ordination in Northern Ireland and break that cycle, then you can start to do even more exciting things to allow graduates to find their full effect and secure their most advantageous employment wherever that occurs on the island. It is all together or not at all.

I see that. Then there is lifelong learning and its impact. Both jurisdictions are quite bad at lifelong learning and it needs to be targeted. There is also a difference because we have the DEIS programme here and have had really good results from it in trying to tackle those hard-to-reach people and to reduce the NEETs in that sense.

I thank our guests from NERI for agreeing to furnish the committee with the details of their model that we can include in our report. Is there anything else our guests would like to add about the future? I know we have not spoken about decarbonisation and the impact that will have, including for FDI. That can only be done on an all-island basis.

Mr. Paul Mac Flynn

One of the more fruitful areas for us in North-South comparisons has been climate change and the just transition. That includes the agricultural sector and the labour market challenges that exist there and the energy sector. We look at it from a workforce point of view. We are looking at the energy situation on the island of Ireland; what power stations are due to close; what is coming on board; what workers will be affected. There are massive regional elements involved that are not simply North or South but within the North and within the South and then between everybody. I have no problem passing those on too, if the Deputy thought the committee might find them useful.

There was a very useful presentation in the audiovisual room by the Centre for Advanced Sustainable Energy, CASE, in Queen's University Belfast. It looked at an all-island approach. Ian Marshall, Martin Doherty and others were talking about what can be done there and linking it to FDI and where we are in the North on capitalising on the dual market access. As Mr. Mac Flynn said, it is joined-up thinking that will get us to where we need to be to be able to be able to envisage something new and better right across the island and, indeed, between the two islands as well in future.

We will leave it there for today. I thank Dr. McDonnell and Mr. Mac Flynn for their attendance and for sharing their work with us and contributing to our report on the constitutional future. This is our economic section. We will probably have them back again in the context of workers' rights and as they complete their model, we will discuss it in further detail.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.16 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 December 2023.
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